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'Deep impact phase' of searching: More than 170 missing after Texas flood
00:56:55
Authorities have confirmed at least 120 deaths across six counties, including those of 59 adults and 36 children in Kerr County.
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- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
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- [00:32]
Willie Geist
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Joe Scarborough
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- [00:53]
Willie Geist
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- [00:56]
Joe Scarborough
All states or situations. I wasn't an office during those discussions and frankly, I'm more focused on the future than the past, as you know. What I can say is the governor, the lieutenant governor, the speaker of the Texas house have all provided us support and they have all said this is a priority for the upcoming special legislative session. As mayor of Kerrville, as someone who grew up here, I am grateful for their support and I look forward to.
- [01:31]
Mika Brzezinski
What they proposed in the special session.
- [01:34]
Jonathan Lemire
The mayor of Kerrville, Texas, yesterday responding to a question about warning systems prior to Friday's historic floods. Officials there continue to face scrutiny about resources and preparations ahead of that disaster. We'll bring you live report from Central Texas in just a moment. Also ahead, an update on the war Ukraine as Russian President Vladimir Putin remains defiant despite criticism from President Trump, launching new deadly strikes overnight.
- [02:06]
Joe Scarborough
Deadly strikes over the night, the night before, a record number of attacks, vicious attacks from Russia, attacking civilian targets across Ukraine.
- [02:17]
Jonathan Lemire
We'll also bring you the latest developments in the negotiations between Israel and Hamas which appear to be moving closer to a peace deal. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, July 10th. The gangs together. And this morning, Willie, we begin in Texas.
- [02:36]
Aaron Gilchrist
Yeah. The desperate search continues this morning in Texas as officials say more than 170 people now are still missing in last week's deadly flooding. Teams fanning out by air watered land, even on horseback in the aftermath of a disaster that has killed at least 120 people across six counties. Five campers and one counselor remain missing from Camp mystic where more heartbreaking stories of loss are coming to light with each passing day. Like 8 year old camper Mary Kate Jacoby, her family says quote, she entered the gates of heaven, adding she was tiny but mighty and full of love. Today, questions continue about whether more could have been done to warn residents ahead of the catastrophic floods. At a press conference yesterday, local officials defended their response and said those questions will be answered in time.
- [03:28]
Joe Scarborough
I believe those questions need to be answered to the family of the missed loved ones, to the public.
- [03:32]
Aaron Gilchrist
We're not running.
- [03:33]
Joe Scarborough
We're not going to hide from anything that's going to be checked into at a later time. I wish I could tell you that time, folks. I don't know how many lives our KPD team saved in an hour in.
- [03:44]
Mika Brzezinski
Kerrville, but I know that this tragedy.
- [03:47]
Joe Scarborough
As horrific as it is, could have.
- [03:49]
Mika Brzezinski
Been so much worse.
- [03:52]
Aaron Gilchrist
That response comes as new reporting from NBC News reveals the former Kerr county commissioner described the county's flood warning system as antiquated back in 2016 and that Kerr county officials discussed warning systems more than two dozen times since then. Joining us now from Kerrville, Texas, is NBC News national correspondent Aaron Gilchrist. Aaron, good morning. What's the latest there?
- [04:15]
Willie Geist
Hey, Willie, good morning. The search effort really is going to continue today in the way that it has over the last week. It was an that started in the immediate hours after the flooding last Friday morning. And since then, we understand that there have been about 2,100 first responders on the ground across this region, primarily here in Kerr county, but in other counties that have been impacted by the flooding here as well. That includes teams from obviously across the state of Texas that have been operating in the air, in the water, and so many of them on foot, along with volunteers, along with search and rescue teams that have been brought in from other states. We know cadaver dogs are being brought into the area from other states as well to help in this search effort. And we heard officials say yesterday that they're now in a sort of a deep impact phase of the search effort here where so much of the water has receded. And these teams are able to get underneath a lot of the debris that had been pushed downriver through the course of the flooding. And that's going to allow them to be able to find, they hope, more of the missing people. At this point, as you noted, there's a death toll of about 120 and there's still more than 170 people who are missing, the known missing, as has been described to us. And the majority of those people are here in Kerr county as well. You talk about the accountability piece of this. We know that the sheriff has been pressed over the last couple of days about when emergency officials were aware of of the level of flooding that was expected to come down the Guadalupe river and when they started alerting the citizens, when they started trying to get people away from the Guadalupe River. And he wasn't really able to give a detailed response to that question. It's something that he's been pressed on. And yesterday in the briefing they held, he said that the incident will be reviewed, saying that there would be an after action report produced by. But at a later time, he said the focus really of his entire law enforcement enterprise here is the focus is really on trying to execute the recovery here, trying to find as many of the missing people as possible and to try to get this community back up on its feet. So many people who did survive the flooding have had their lives really just devastated by what happened here. At the same time you noted there is a special session of the state legislature later on this month that was already on the books. And now this flooding incident is going to be at the top of the agenda. Governor Greg Abbott released his agenda for that special session late yesterday. And the flooding incident in terms of both looking at legislation for better improvements to the alert systems here and the infrastructure around flooding as well as relief funding for this region. Those are all going to be a part of that special session.
- [07:06]
Joe Scarborough
Guys.
- [07:07]
Aaron Gilchrist
Aaron, we're hearing harrowing stories coming out of Camp mystic sadly. Funerals now being planned for little girls in Dallas, Houston and other parts across Texas. As I mentioned, five campers and a counselor still unaccounted for from Camp Mystic. New reporting this morning that even during expansion of the camp a few years back, it remained in an extremely hazardous flood zone that probably needed more warnings than it got and a more sophisticated warning system. What else are we hearing out of Camp mystic about the girls who died, the counselor who died and the director of the camp who passed away as well?
- [07:42]
Willie Geist
Well, I got to tell you, I was able to drive up the river to Camp mystic yesterday along with our team. And it was an incredible sight to see what happened in that community of Hunt, Texas. We were told that when the floodwaters rose, Hunt essentially became an island or series of islands even. And people, by the accounting of two police officers who happened to be, who happened to live in that area, they were not able to get out. People were not. They were not able to get into people. They saw some folks. They were able to yell to them to try to get to the rooftops and to get to safe areas as they were able to access people. They were trying to triage those who had been injured. And when you look at Camp mystic, you can see some of the pictures that we saw here yesterday. I mean, the river is right there, just a few yards away from one of the living quarters, the cabins there. And you have to imagine how incredibly frightening this was for the young ladies who were at this camp as they saw that river raging, ripping trees out of the ground, pushing homes off foundations nearby. It was just an incredible sight to see there. We know that 165 young ladies were rescued. The campers and staff there were rescued were initially listed as missing. That number is now down to six. We also know that there was a disaster plan that the camp was required to put together. That's a requirement by the state. That plan had been submitted to the state and approved just two days before this flooding incident. That plan did include an evacuation plan, an understanding of who at the camp was supposed to execute what responsibilities during a major incident. There are still questions obviously, about to what degree they were able to operationalize that particular plan with it only having been approved two days in advance. But there would have been previous plans. We assume that we still need to ask questions about whether the staff there were trained on what to do. But it is worth noting, Willie, that again, 165 lives were saved by helicopters coming in and helping to get people out of Camp Mystic.
- [09:56]
Aaron Gilchrist
NBC's Aaron Gilchrist reporting from Kerrville, Texas. Aaron, thank you for your reporting. We appreciate it, Joe.
- [10:02]
Joe Scarborough
You know, Willie, the flood system as, as you reported, was. Was considered antiquated. A decade ago, you had. You had. Not only the people of Kerr, Kerrville, you had. You had. Had to have people in the county and people in the state repeatedly ignore these. These very clear signals that people's lives were in danger, Texans lives were in danger because they weren't upgrading an antiquated system. We heard a sheriff say in a clip that things could have been so much worse, and certainly they could have. And we salute the first responders. But also, there is no doubt if the warnings over the past decade had been listened to by politicians in Texas on the local and the state level, then this tragedy could have been so less worse, so less tragic. And I'm just. I'm reminded of Hurricane Katrina, how for a decade, you had city officials in New Orleans, you had state officials in Louisiana ignore warning after warning after warning about an old antiquated levy system that was not able to hold back the floodwaters. So it seems to me, Willie, that's the same thing that's happening here. They they knew there was a problem and, and there's really no passing of the buck because I'll tell you how things happen. We have when I represented six counties in northwest Florida, if there was a problem that people had in, you know, a hurricane coming, then, you know, and somebody saw a problem, somebody would talk to a county commissioner, county commissioner would talk to me. I would get funding for, for whatever needed to be be taken care of, and it would be taken care of. I find it hard to believe two things right here. One, again, complaints about an antiquated warning system went unheeded for a decade. That's number one. Number two, that the local authorities, that the county authorities, that the state authorities allowed a children's camp to be built in a flood zone just a few years ago in a highly dangerous flood zone. You, of course, talking about the reporting that's on the front page of the New York Times today, Willie. So that's, that's again, one more thing where the state of Texas fell miserably. Find it hard to believe that would happen in the state of Florida. You know, Post Andrew, we took leaders, took every precaution to make sure that building standards were raised. But again, how they knew this was a problem for a decade and still allowed Camp mystic to expand in an active flood zone is beyond me.
- [13:13]
Aaron Gilchrist
Yeah, to expand or at least not have a new updated warning system as they expanded as part of getting the permit or part of that expansion. It's. There are camps nearby in this same flood zone, Joe. And New York Times has some great reporting on this this morning, where just by word of mouth, there was a nearby camp where a staffer was up at one o' clock in the morning and heard the alert on his phone and he started waking people up and telling them, move them to higher ground. And everyone in that camp survived. The point is, though, you shouldn't be relying on somebody happening to be awake at one o' clock in the morning and seeing something on his phone to run around to cabins and get everybody to higher ground. That's what happened. And so tragically and so devastatingly did not happen at Camp Mystic. There's got to be a better way, Joe. Oddly, the other day, Governor Abbott of Texas, very defensive and bristling at reporters, saying the talk of losers to ask these kind of questions in a moment like this while we're still looking for children. No, it's the talk of accountability and making sure this never happens again and asking questions about how this was possible, how we got here, and preventing again this from ever ever happening again to a group of little girls fighting for their lives in the middle of the night during a flood.
- [14:31]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, I mean, the talk of losers is somebody that talk of losers is somebody who doesn't take responsibility, doesn't take responsibility when something happened in his state where people died. There's an antiquated system in an active flood zone that everybody knows is a dangerous flood zone. And in his state, nothing is done for over a decade to an antiquated warning system. And his state allows the building, the expansion of a camp. And in a flood zone, instead of saying, sorry, you can't build in an extraordinarily dangerous flood zone, you're going to have to actually move to higher ground. That's what responsible states do. That's what responsible leaders do. And the governor like suggesting that any calls for accountability is a talk of losers. Actually suggest that the losers talk is that person who's afraid to face the.
- [15:39]
Jonathan Lemire
Accountability he deserves asking more questions.
- [15:42]
Joe Scarborough
Well, there will be more questions asked and it doesn't matter. Like if losers don't want to face accountability, too bad they're going to face accountability. Let's bring in right now the co host of our fourth hour contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Omir, also US Special correspondent for BBC News and host of the Rest of Politics, Katie Kay. Jonathan o'. Mear. The president's going to be heading down to Texas today. Tell us about it.
- [16:08]
Katty Kay
Yeah, the president actually tomorrow. Yeah, President Trump heads to Texas tomorrow. Look, as any White House has to do, you have to respond to outside events. You have to respond to these tragedies, these natural disasters. We saw President Trump do so in his first term. This one of the first times in his second where he's had to make these solemn trips, trip delayed a few days because of course, anytime a president travels to a site like this, it takes a lot of resources, it takes a lot of law enforcement personnel to help secure the area. The White House didn't want to pull those people from their duties with the rescue and recovery efforts. So that's why the trip is not happening until tomorrow. He's expected to tour some of the site, thank local officials for their hard work. And no doubt, Joe Amica faced some tough questions about some of the federal funding cuts that he's proposed, his plan to cut to span fema. Now they've backed off that a little this week. The president says that that's not going to impact the response to this particular tragedy in Texas, but there will be others that is, especially in an age of climate change. There will be more floods, there will be more storms, there will be more fires and the like. So he is going to face some scrutiny. He has been also very defensive of the state and local response there in Texas to this point. He's backed the governor, he's backed local officials. But he will undoubtedly face some tough questions and could face a few uncomfortable moments there as he does also play the role of consoler in chief. Not one he always wears a role he wears most gracefully. But he'll be there to meet with the families and friends of those lost as well.
- [17:45]
Jonathan Lemire
It's good he's going.
- [17:46]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, it really is. And you know, when there's a tragedy like this, Americans want to see a president of the United States, whether that president's a Republican or a Democrat. So it's good that he's going to be going tomorrow. Also, as he said before, if he'd gone too early, would have been getting in the way. It's still a very, very active search and situation. But Katty, I'm just, I'm struck by the governor of Texas and the only parallel I can think of is Ray Nagin, who was the mayor of New Orleans during, during Hurricane Katrina, who would brush off any responsibility. Just ran and hidden from responsibility here. The governor of Texas for 10 years has had to know, other people have had to know that, that they had an inadequate warning system in a flood zone in a, what do they call it, flash flood alley. And they had inadequate warning signs. That's one side of it. Not doing the basic funding that with as big of a rainy day fund they had, not spending it to save little girls lives. That's number one. The second thing is allowing it's a New York Times is reporting this morning, by the way, the Wall Street Journal could have reported it. Newsmax could have reported it. It's the fact. So I mean, you know, they can go, oh, New York Times liberal hippies or whatever he may try to say to brush it aside. The fact remains they allowed Camp mystic to expand in an active flood zone just a few years ago. That, that is, that is absolutely atrocious and put everybody's lives in danger in Camp mystic instead of saying, hey listen, we're not going to spend the money on the warning system that would actually save your lives when the flood came. So you're going to have to build those new expansion, that new part of your camp outside of a flood zone, which is what happened in 49 other states. He didn't do it here. Nobody did it in Texas. Here and again, for him to say that this is lose talk is just him trying to brush aside responsibility. That falls on him, that falls on state officials, it falls on local officials, that fall on county officials that were part of this negligence.
- [20:09]
Steve Dorsey
You can imagine that a strong leader would say, we want every possible investigation. We want to make sure this never happens again. The books are open. Anyone that has any information, we will welcome it because we want to try and protect the people living in our state. A weak politician, however, may say, I don't want any investigation. That is loser talk. I don't want newspapers reporting this. I don't want, you know, I'm going to attack the messenger because I'm worried about any kind of retribution that might come my way. This is, we are going to keep having these incidents and politicians in state after state are going to have to learn how to deal with this. If they've made mistakes in the past, if mistakes were made in the past, they're going to have to be more careful about that. They're going to have to find a way to reassure their own populations that they are doing everything, which includes a thorough non political investigation that populations can trust. Once investigations become politicized, we lose faith in them. Populations are going to have to be able to trust that their governments are doing all they can to investigate incidents like this in order to keep them safe. Because it's not going to stop. We know that. We know we're going to get more of these weather incidents.
- [21:14]
Jonathan Lemire
Still ahead on Morning Joe, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy is taking on more responsibility, adding another role within the administration. We'll tell you what that is. Plus will bring you a live report from Tel Aviv for the latest on the cease fire negotiations between Israel and Hamas. And a reminder that the Morning Joe podcast is available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching Morning Joe. We will be right back.
- [21:47]
Katty Kay
You ask, I'm going to use your words, who's to blame. Know this. That's the word choice of losers. Let me explain one thing about Texas and that is Texas. Every square inch of our state cares about football. You could be in Hunt, Texas, Huntsville, Texas, Houston, Texas, any size community. They care about football, high school, Friday Night Lights, college football or pro. And know this, every football team makes mistakes. The losing teams are the ones that try to point out who's to blame. The championship teams are the ones that say, don't worry about it man, we got this. We're going to make sure that we go score again, then we're going to win this game. The way winners talk is not to point fingers. They talk about solutions. What Texas is all about is solutions.
- [22:42]
Joe Scarborough
The bottom line is, even as the Trump administration tries to end abortion access, slash funding and shut down health centers, Planned Parenthood continues its vital work without flinching. The assault on reproductive health is strategic and persistent. And who gets hurt the most? Women. People of color, Rural communities, folks with low incomes.
- [23:02]
Steve Dorsey
The people who already face the biggest barriers to care.
- [23:05]
Joe Scarborough
If you believe everyone deserves to control their own body and future, donate now@plannedparenthood.org defend get first day ready the right.
- [23:15]
Jonathan Lemire
Way, whether the waterworks are theirs or yours.
- [23:18]
Joe Scarborough
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Joe Scarborough
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Joe Scarborough
Loan may be issued by On Deck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. You know, Willie, we're gonna, we're gonna get to the Russia story second Willie. But I listened to the governor there.
- [24:29]
Jonathan Lemire
Oh yeah, I can already hear it talking about football.
- [24:34]
Joe Scarborough
And he said the winning teams, like when they lose, they go, come, we're fine, everybody's fine. We're going to get them next time. Maybe they do that in Texas. I don't think they do that in Texas. I'll tell you what they do in the sec. You lose a football game, Bear Bryant will take you back into the locker room. Nick Saban will take you back into the locker room and you'll hear about it non stop, about what you did wrong, why you did it wrong, how you cost the team the game and how you never do it Again, in fact, Nick Saban, actually, you can see Nick Saban, he goes around and talks all the time about the importance of telling people when they make mistakes. Saban said, if I don't go up and get in people's face and tell them when they've made a mistake, I'm letting down the entire team. It creates a culture that allows permissiveness, that breeds mistakes, that makes a team worse and makes them repeat those mistakes weekend, week out, week in, week out. So I don't even know. He should not have brought up football that was so. Because I'm pretty sure in Texas football, it's a lot like Alabama football. If you screw up, then there is immediate accountability. And if you don't understand that, then you go out in Alabama or northwest Florida and you run wind sprints and you keep running wind sprints and you run what we call red dogs in northwest Florida. You don't want to run red dogs in northwest Florida. So, again, this whole thing, he's trying to hide behind Texas football and he's trying to hide behind this tragedy to suggest we shouldn't be talking about accountability. He's got it exactly wrong. And the football metaphor underlines that.
- [26:32]
Aaron Gilchrist
Jonathan Lear and I were watching that. We said, that'll be news to Bill Belichick or Nick Saban, that you don't go back and watch the game film.
- [26:40]
Willie Geist
Exactly.
- [26:40]
Aaron Gilchrist
Over and over again to see what mistakes you might have made. And broadly, though, the idea of comparing to what we're watching in Texas and the death of all these people to high school football or any football or anything other than the complete tragedy that it is, and to not look and say, you know what, we need tomorrow to start installing these warning systems along the Guadalupe river that should have been there a long time ago to prevent the next thing. That's the right answer. And I also understand the sentiment of, hey, we are busy now trying and find the bodies of these people and bring them home to their families so they can have funerals. I get that. But you are government officials. You are elected officials. Your responsibility is to the people.
- [27:23]
Joe Scarborough
And.
- [27:23]
Aaron Gilchrist
And you need to figure out what happened and make sure it never happens again. And that, yes, is what Nick Saban or the head coach at Texas or the Dallas Cowboys or at Permian east would tell you, too.
- [27:34]
Joe Scarborough
And that happens after every storm, that happens after every tragedy. They can do two things at one time. They can do search and rescue. They can care for those that are lost. And they can also ask, how did this happen? How do we prevent this from ever happening again.
- [27:56]
Jonathan Lemire
It's not wrong to ask and I can't even imagine what family members of those who were lost in this devastating, devastating tragedy were thinking and hearing the governor compare this question to football and.
- [28:12]
Joe Scarborough
Say, please don't even ask us any questions about how this happened.
- [28:15]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, let's painful. Continuing to cover the story throughout the show with Aaron Gilchrist and others on the scene getting updates. We move now to Russia, which has intensified its strikes in Ukraine over the last 48 hours, launching over 700 drones and missiles throughout the country yesterday. And now at least two people have been killed in overnight attacks targeting the capital of Kyiv, according to local officials there. Yesterday's assault marked the largest single day attacks on Ukraine. And it comes as President Trump has begun to voice a new level of support for Ukraine and also frustration with Russian President Vladimir Putin. On Monday, Trump said the US Will continue to help Ukraine defend itself by sending more weapons. On Tuesday, during a cabinet meeting, Trump dismissed Putin's rhetoric on peace efforts as meaningless talk. Meanwhile, Secretary of State Marco Rubio is meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on the sidelines of a summit in Malaysia. It comes as Senate Majority Leader John Thune says substantial progress is being made on a bipartisan effort to expand sanctions targeting Russia. According to Thune, the legislation could come to a vote between now and August 1st. The sanctions bill would be designed to bolster President Trump's leverage at the negotiations table in an effort to stop the war.
- [29:48]
Joe Scarborough
Well, you know, and Katie K. What is so fascinating here is that Vladimir Putin is actually stepping up attacks significantly. In fact, two nights ago, more attacks in Ukraine than any other night since the war began, stepping up his attacks at the very moment when Donald Trump is talking about the need for him to wind it down, suggesting that he's acting in bad faith, suggesting they may move forward with sanctions. It is clearly Vladimir Putin trying to either embarrass, humiliate or just thumb his nose at the president of the United States, which hasn't proven to be a successful strategy in the past for other countries.
- [30:36]
Steve Dorsey
Yeah, this is when we all need to read that great novel, the wizard of the Kremlin gets inside the mind of Vladimir Putin because it's hard to know what he's thinking. A week ago you had this phone call. A week ago today you had the phone call between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin that clearly went wrong. Now you've had two nights in a row, Tuesday night and Wednesday night across Ukraine, focusing on Kyiv, focusing on residential buildings of these attacks from the Russians and at the same time, as you say, Joe, you've got Donald Trump, who seems to be losing patience. So is, is Vladimir Putin looking at past and thinking past is prologue? Because there have been four occasions, at least this year, by my count, where Donald Trump has issued an ultimatum to Vladimir Putin saying, you have to come to the table, you have to agree to a ceasefire, or else. Or else there'll be more tariffs, or else there'll be more sanctions, or else we walk away from the table. And on each of those occasions, nothing has happened. So if you're sitting in the Kremlin, maybe you're just thinking, as the Kremlin spokesperson has suggested, well, this is the kind of thing Donald Trump just says, but these are phrases he uses. We don't actually think he's going to do anything. The question, I suppose, is going to be whether Donald Trump really has come to the realization that he's kind of being played by Vladimir Putin, and this is going to result in a different strategy from the White House.
- [31:54]
Aaron Gilchrist
Jonathan Lemire. Donald Trump has had flashes over the years of frustration with Vladimir Putin, but has always sort of come back home to the position of supporting him. It was interesting to see the. The moment the President began to criticize Vladimir Putin, Senate Republicans rushing to cheer him on, effectively saying, this is the position we've always hoped you'd have, but haven't seen you have, whether it's Lindsey Graham or John Thune or others saying, yeah, this is the right position. We need to be pushing back on Putin and supporting Ukraine. Do you think this current moment holds for President Trump, which is we gotta get weapons to Ukraine and to publicly criticize Putin?
- [32:28]
Katty Kay
Well, your point is exactly right. Senate Republicans getting out there, trying to push the President along. In fact, two nights ago, we heard from Senator Graham saying president has signaled he's on board with this sanctions bill. Well, I talked to White House officials last night saying, no, not yet, that this was Senator Graham getting out ahead of the President. White House officials telling me they're not ruling out. The president could get there at some point or perhaps approve of some other measure that would punish Moscow. But this bill, the sanctions bill, has been slowly working its way through the Senate that has more than 80 supporters. That is co sponsored by Senators Graham, Republican, Blumenthal, Democrat. But President Trump is simply not there yet. Despite what Graham said, he has not given his okay. So that could change. The Majority Leader Thune said they hope to have some movement on the bill maybe next week. But Willie, it's your central question. It's yet another example of President Trump. Yes, occasionally he does talk tough to Vladimir Putin. He hasn't followed through with actions yet. At this moment, we're still waiting and seeing.
- [33:28]
Aaron Gilchrist
For more on this, let's turn to NBC News international correspondent Raf Sanchez. Raf, what more can you tell us about Russia really amping up its drone attacks on civilian targets, particularly inside Ukraine, despite what Putin is hearing from President Trump?
- [33:47]
H
Yeah, Willie, absolutely. It has been another sleepless night for the residents of Kyiv. Families telling us that they have been running to the bomb shelters, hearing the explosions overhead as those drones and missiles get through, hearing Ukraine's air defense trying to keep them out, the rattle of machine gun fire trying to stop these drones. And it does feel willy like every couple of days I come on air and I say that Russia has just launched one of the biggest aerial assaults of the war. And what we are seeing is a very distinct pattern. The Russians are sending about a dozen or so ballistic missiles, but they are accompanied by 400 plus of these Iranian designed Shahid drones. And what Ukrainian officials say is the tactic here is to send this blizzard of drones over Kyiv, try to overwhelm the air defenses so those missiles can get through. Now, this is why you are hearing from President Zelensky at every opportunity in front of the cameras that he is pleading with the United States for more support in the realm of air defenses. And I can tell you, Ukrainian officials watching very, very closely as President Trump appears to be executing this about turn on the question of sending weapons, weapons to the Ukrainians. You remember the White House announcing this pause in supplies of defensive weapons to Ukraine, saying in a kind of America first way that there were concerns about ammunition supplies to U.S. troops. It's not clear that President Trump signed off on this. Multiple officials tell NBC News that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth was the one who gave the green light. And then when President Trump was in the Cabinet room earlier this week, he was asked who gave this order and he didn't seem to know, but he is now saying it has been reversed. That is welcome news to the Ukrainians. They are hoping that the president will also eventually get to a place where he supports further sanctions on Russia. He mentions that bill with a lot of bipartisan support working its way through the Senate right now. I should say, Willie, that while a lot of the focus is on these aerial attacks, the Russians are making, making slow, grinding progress on the ground in the east of Ukraine. The tempo is picking up. They are taking more and more territory from the Ukrainians. And the Russian calculation Vladimir Putin's calculation seems to be that even if he does end up finally alienating Donald Trump, that he has the momentum on the battlefield and he can ultimately, he thinks, achieve his war aims.
- [36:26]
Willie Geist
Mika.
- [36:28]
Jonathan Lemire
All right, Raf, thank you so much. And you just heard Raf mention that weapons pause. President Trump was asked by a reporter. There was a couple of questions about it. Let's take a listen to what he said.
- [36:43]
Joe Scarborough
Sir, yesterday you said that you were.
- [36:47]
Mika Brzezinski
Not sure who ordered the munitions halted to Ukraine.
- [36:51]
Joe Scarborough
Have you since been able to figure that out? Well, I haven't thought about it because we're looking at Ukraine right now and munitions. But I have, no, I have not gone into it.
- [36:59]
Willie Geist
What does it say that such a.
- [37:01]
Joe Scarborough
Big decision could be made inside your government without you knowing? I would know. If a decision was made, I will know. I'll be the first to know. In fact, most likely, I'd give the order, but I haven't done that yet.
- [37:15]
Jonathan Lemire
Okay. Three congressional aides and a former US Official familiar with the matter told NBC News that last week's decision to halt the weapons shipment was a unilateral move made by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth yesterday on Meet the Press. Now, retiring Republican Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska called for Hegseth's resignation.
- [37:40]
Joe Scarborough
I've said this before about the signal gate. It wasn't handled well. The secretary should have taken responsibility, admitted he made a mistake, but instead he doubled down, blamed the journalist, and then denied there was a problem of putting sensitive data on an unclassified system for attack. And I called for his resignation or being fired then, and I feel the same way now when he makes a decision to not send weapons to Ukraine that was appropriated by Congress, signed by the previous president, and he didn't even notify President Trump or seek his approval. And it embarrassed the president. Yeah, you know, it really is. It's unforgivable. It'd be unforgivable in any administration. You've had people fired for doing things far less than this. Katty K. You know, it's very interesting when people listen to what Donald Trump said there, they say, well, that doesn't make any sense. He's just sort of talking in circles. It actually, if you sit and actually listen to it, I wouldn't say that he's setting a trap for Hagseth, but he's making two things very clear. Number one, a decision this big does not happen in his administration without him knowing about it. And number two, he didn't know about this decision being made in his administration. Now, people can Assume what they want to assume with that. But that leads to me to a very clear conclusion, which is he's not happy with Pete Hegseth, and he's sending a message inside the administration that, once again, Pete Hegseth has stepped outside the lines of the administration. He did it during transition, where he lied to the transition team. He did it during Signalgate. He's doing it again here, where he made this massive decision, this policy decision.
- [39:39]
Jonathan Lemire
What's next?
- [39:40]
Joe Scarborough
And didn't notify the commander in Chief. I mean, it really is breathtaking, isn't it?
- [39:46]
Steve Dorsey
I'm loving the decoding of what Donald Trump was saying, because I was listening to it. And you're far smarter at this than I am, Joe, because I was listening to thinking that doesn't make any sense at all. But, yeah, I get what you're saying is that he's laying the trap. I didn't order this, and I would have to have ordered it. It was a bit like when he said to the reporter, I don't know who ordered this? You tell me. Which was also a bit of a strange response. But it's not the first that Pete Hegsest has done this right back a few months ago, back in February, he also ordered a halt in weapons to Ukraine, only to have that reversed. He ordered the Aukus review, the UK Australian nuclear submarine review, which also surprised people up on Capitol Hill because they weren't expecting that. That's with two allies again, kind of stepping out of line. That had to be rode back as well. So there have been these repeated occasions for his. Supporters of the Defense secretary say, look, he's massively boosted intake and recruitment, and that keeps him on the president's good side. The president likes that. But I'm gonna listen to the president in a new way now and listen for the traps that he's setting his cabinet members. Yeah, I mean, the Defense Secretary reports to the Commander in Chief. What else? What other things might he order or his policy people order who want to restrain the president that the president doesn't approve of? I think that's something that the White House is gonna be asking more questions about.
- [41:04]
Joe Scarborough
Well, and, you know, and we heard in the first term time and again, I mean, Jonathan Lemire, you reported on this. We heard weird first term, the president being upset by people like Gary Cohn going in, taking a piece of paper off of his desk, you know, trying to move him away from certain policies, sort of going behind his back doing things. We heard real concerns about people who had been his chief of staff at the first term or his secretary of defense working to sort of massage issues and move them in a way that Donald Trump, Trump didn't support. Now you have it on the other side, where you have Pete Hegseth, according to the President of the United States, you know, or according to members of Congress, Pete Hegseth making this massive policy decision and the President, United States saying he didn't notify me.
- [41:55]
Katty Kay
Yeah. That was a hallmark of his first term, where members of his administration, cabinet members, top staffers, would try to move him on issues, sometimes with his knowledge, sometimes, sometimes not. As you say, by it's happening again.
- [42:07]
Joe Scarborough
It's happening again with Hegseth now.
- [42:09]
H
But here's where.
- [42:09]
Katty Kay
Here's where it's different. Here's where it's different. In the first term, the president kind of didn't do anything about it. Sometimes he would even would be played. He'd be susceptible to something he would see on Fox News. Nade would give an interview to try to move the president. President would move, or there'd be paperwork taken off his desk, or the chief of staff, John Kelly in particular, would push the process away from the Oval Office and Trump would feel left out. Trump has spent four years in the political wilderness being angry about that and vowed that this term that wouldn't happen. He would surround himself with loyalists, people who would simply take, who would not try to push him, who would not try to convince him, who would simply tell him yes. So therefore, we are seeing some bristling from the Oval Office a sense that it's happening again. So we will see. You know, the president is not always involved in the minutia of policy, but certainly this is a big enough issue that he should have gotten a heads up. That's what senior aides tell me. And there is real anger here as to how this went.
- [43:07]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, well. And Jonathan, we got to go to break here, but just really quickly, it bears repeating, an underlining that Pete Hegseth has had a history in his short term as a nominee. And then the sec def. Of. Of exasperating people inside the White House again, lying, certainly not being forthcoming about the problems that he had had in the past about court documents. I mean, surprising the Trump transition team time and time again, then doing it again with Signal Gate. I mean, you talk to people inside the White House like I know you had, they'll say, we had a great two months and we controlled the agenda. And then Pete Hegseth screwed it up with Signal Gate, and now here we have it again. We have the president passing a bill. We have the president, you know, having strikes on, on Iran. The president now standing up to Vladimir Putin. And what happens? We have Pete Hegseth going off on his own, making this, this, this policy decision that Donald Trump is now reversing.
- [44:13]
Katty Kay
Yeah. And you ticked through just a few of the examples that really exasperated president, Chief of Staff Susie Wiles and others in the White House think tired of some of the mistakes from Hegseth. Now, look, Hegseth is very popular among the MAGA base due to his time at Fox News. Also because the bruising confirmation fight for so many in the Trump base was reminiscent of the Kavanaugh fight in the Supreme Court. We kept hearing that at the time. So there is affection there for him. But that only gets you so far. If you continue to alienate the commander in chief, your time in that post may be limited. Trump loathed to fire people so far this time around. You know, National Security Adviser Wall is the one exception here. He wasn't popular in most Trump circles. But right now, I think that Hegseth is on a short leash, if you will, from the Oval Office that these kind of things got to stop happening.
- [45:04]
Jonathan Lemire
All right, coming up, we're going to get an update on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza from a man of the International Red Cross and a doctor who recently volunteered at one of the few functioning hospitals that they have. Morning Joe is back in just a moment.
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- [46:59]
Joe Scarborough
Pushing out anyone. And I don't think that's President Trump's suggestion. His suggestion was giving a choice. You have a choice. Where do you live, madam? What do you live? Are you an American citizen? Yes. You think you have a right to go to another country if you seek to do so. But the Palestinians should have that right. It's called the freedom of choice and nothing more than that. No coercion, no forcible dislocation. If people want to leave Gaza, they should have the right to do so and not be held at a point of abundance gun of Hamas to keep them inside if they want to leave.
- [47:32]
Aaron Gilchrist
That's Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu up on Capitol Hill yesterday saying there would be no forcible dislocation of Palestinians living in Gaza under the proposed ceasefire plan. For its part, Hamas says it would agree to release 10 Israeli hostages as part of those ceasefire talks with Israel. The announcement came on the fourth day of negotiations in Qatar yesterday. Earlier in the day, President Trump told reporters at the White House he believes mediators in Doha are close to a deal.
- [48:01]
Joe Scarborough
We're talking about Gaza for the most part. I think we have a chance this week or next week. Not definitely. There's nothing definite about war and Gaza and all of the other places that we all deal with so much. But there's a very good chance that we'll have a settlement, an agreement of some kind this week and maybe next week. If not.
- [48:23]
Aaron Gilchrist
Let's bring in NBC News international correspondent Matt Bradley live from Tel Aviv. So Matt, what's the latest you're hearing from, from Israeli officials there about these cease fire talks? Do they take Hamas seriously in their offer to release the 10 hostages?
- [48:38]
Mika Brzezinski
Well, we haven't actually spoken to anyone since last night since Hamas's offer, but it sounds as though this is still landing. This isn't all that different from what we've been hearing over the past couple of days. Hamas saying that they would accept those 10 hostages, that they would release them. That was already in the proposal that has been bandied about between negotiators in Doha, as you mentioned. So this isn't necessarily a new development. The main issues are still outstanding and there are three of the main sticking points here. The provision of aid into the Gaza Strip, because the Gaza Strip has been starved of aid for the past, well, year and a half, but also especially for the past couple of months, there's been an aid distribution system that has been widely criticized as ineffective and fomenting violence. And before that, the Israelis had cut off all aid to the Gaza strip for about 11 weeks. So the need there is desperate and there's still a lot of disagreement over whether or not and who will provide that aid. There's also the question of a permanent end to the war, whether the Israelis are actually going to end this war and stop fighting Hamas during this proposed 60 day ceasefire. And then the question of whether or not the Israelis, or where the Israelis are going to, to be withdrawing too, as they sort of wait for this ceasefire to become a fully fledged, more permanent peace deal. These are all issues that have dogged these negotiations really for the past several months, the better part of the past couple of years. So this isn't new again. And it just goes to show that even though these negotiations have been grinding on and on and on for months, and even though they still kind of hinge on the same outstanding issues that they have have even before the last time we saw a cease fire in the Gaza Strip, there is still an enormous amount of optimism around this set of negotiations. And that's because everything in the Middle east has changed so much, particularly with regard to Iran. Hamas no longer has the confidence that their main patron in Iran will back them up because of the Israeli and American attacks against Iran. And you know, a lot of this then has really changed the way that people are negotiating in the Middle East. It could mean that we will actually see some kind of breakthrough. We've been here before, but this feels really different.
- [50:49]
Joe Scarborough
So, Matt, let's let, let's move from Gaza over to the West Bank. I have been hearing from evangelical pastors who do mission work and people who do mission work in the west bank and a part of Christian communities in the west bank where, by the way, there are a lot of sacred Christian sites, including Bethlehem, the place Jesus was born. These church leaders in the west bank are now starting to call attention to a recent spike in Israeli settler attacks and harassment against Christians and against Christians Christian sites there. What can you tell us about those attacks against those Christians in places close to Bethlehem and other, other Christian sites?
- [51:46]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, I mean, the main issue here is the town of Taibi which is the only majority Christian town in the West Bank. There used to be quite a bit more, and Christian used to comprise a much higher percentage of the Palestinian population. Many of them have since left the Holy Land. So what we're seeing and what we're hearing from priests there is that all of this really picked up about two weeks ago and that the. The town of Taybe is essentially under siege. And there was a statement that was released earlier this week from three church leaders. And again, this is a multi confessional community. Despite the fact that they're majority Christians, there are different Christian Christian sects represented, the Latin Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Greek Catholic Church, all of them signing on to this statement that said that the settlers have been really increasing their attacks against the population there and that they're doing something that we've been seeing throughout the west bank, not just in Tibet, but this practice where settlers who are trying to take over Palestinian land in the west bank, they will graze their animals on Palestinian owned agricultural areas. Then when the Palestinian farmers come out and try to tell them to stop grazing their animals on their agricultural land that they're trying to use to sell products, they will create a confrontation that will invite either violence or the presence of the police or the Israeli Defense Forces that will typically go in the way of those settlers who are harassing the Palestinians. And that's one of the reasons why we've been seeing this increase violence ever since October 7th of 2023. You know, this isn't just focused on Taipei. This is really something that we've been seeing throughout the entire West Bank. Taipei is just a more recent example. It has very little to do, if nothing to do, as far as I know, with the fact that Taipei is a majority Christian town. This has happened with shocking regularity to majority Muslim towns throughout the west bank, especially those in close proximity to major Israeli settlements. So this is not necessarily a decidedly Christian element, but this is something that makes it a little bit different and just goes to show that this is not a sectarian conflict in the West Bank. This is a conflict about land. This is about property. And this is about the settlers who are out there in the west bank trying to take it from Palestinians in a way that is even Israeli law and certainly international law considers to be very much illegal.
- [54:07]
Joe Scarborough
All right, NBC's Matt Bradley, live from Israel. Thank you so much. And that is what I've been hearing again from again, people in the area on the West Bank. We've of course, been talking about what's been happening to the Muslim population of the West Bank. Now for some time, the illegal settlements, the harassment, the abuse that Palestinians have been taking, but it's happening now in this Christian settlement, too. And again, Christians have just given up over the years and left despite the fact again, there are, there are sacred sites to Christianity like Bethlehem that are there. But now this Christian town, this Christian village is under siege. And it's going to be very interesting to see if leaders of the Christian church, whether it's a Catholic church or an evangelical church, whether we're going to see President Trump and others get the, get the very clear message to Benjamin Netanyahu that this harassment has to stop. And I would say not just to Christians, but to Muslims and everybody across the West Bank.
- [55:09]
Jonathan Lemire
Exactly. Back to Gaza now. The humanitarian crisis in Gaza continues to worsen with local hospitals being completely overwhelmed with victims from the increased violence surrounding the controversial new Gaza Humanitarian foundation aid sites. This week alone, the International Red Cross says Nasser Hospital, one of the last major functioning hospital hospitals in southern Gaza, has treated over 2,200 weapon wounded patients and has logged 200 deaths since the new AIDS system began. One volunteer doctor working at the hospital detailed to the New York Times her experience treating victims after a mass shooting event outside one of the AIDS sites recounting, quote, we're in that point where people have been reduced to such a level of deprivation that they are prepared to die for a bag full of rice and a bit of pasta. And that doctor joins us now. Dr. Victoria Rose is a plastic surgeon who has just returned from volunteering in Gaza. Also with us, head of communications and public affairs for the U.S. and Canadian Division of the International Red Cross. Steve Dorsey joins us as well.
- [56:28]
Joe Scarborough
Thank you so much for being with us. Steve. I'd like to start with you because there's just been a great growing frustration, certainly with us on this show about hearing about mass casualty events, usually around relief scenes of relief where food's supposed to be dropped. And anytime there's any reports on those mass casualty events, Israel and Israel's allies, who I have considered myself one for my lifetime, but a lot of his Israeli allies say, oh, that's just Hamas propaganda. So when, when I saw the story about Dr. Rose and saw a quote from the International Red Cross, it's hard for the Israeli government and apologists to dismiss this as Hamas propaganda. And you have written of these mass casualty events near relief sites, the scale and the frequency of these incidents precedent. This is from the International Red Cross. Over the past month, the number of patients treated has surpassed the total seen in all mass casualty events during the entire previous year. Please tell us Steve, what mass casualty incidences are happening at these aid sites?
- [57:52]
Willie Geist
21 Joe, in the last month. And I think we need to just use our eyes.
- [57:59]
Joe Scarborough
We don't always have to believe what.
- [58:01]
Willie Geist
We'Re told, but we can believe what we see. And what we're seeing and experiencing at our field hospital in southern Gaza in Rafah is chaos. It's a hellscape. It's desperation. You mentioned earlier thousands of people being treated there. Those are civilians, those are patients as young as toddlers trying to make it.
- [58:21]
Joe Scarborough
They tell us to one of these.
- [58:23]
Willie Geist
Aid sites nearby just for a little.
- [58:26]
Joe Scarborough
Bit bit of food.
- [58:27]
Willie Geist
And that's resulted in most of the people that were treating.
- [58:30]
Joe Scarborough
Please explain to me, maybe I'm naive. Why are they being shot? Why are they being attacked when they're trying to get food? I don't understand what, what is the supposed justification for this? This is to you Steve. What, what are you hearing? What is the justification for these attacks? Well, these people are to trying, trying to get a grain of rice or a little bit of food for their starving families. Listen, we're out there.
- [58:59]
Willie Geist
We aren't taking part in this new Gaza aid mechanism. So we don't have the people at these distribution sites to see exactly what's unfolded, only what we hear is what we can report. And that's what we're hearing from patients is that not only have they been hurt but but we've been seeing their injuries. And those are majority of those victims have gunshot wounds. They also have shrapnel and blast injuries and it's really devastating people that are already desperate.
- [59:31]
Joe Scarborough
Doctor, something that you said really was just jarring. You had said that in the past when you were there you would treat shrapnel wounds. Now when you have young children coming in, you're seeing entire parts of their bodies blown off like children coming in without legs, without kneecaps. Talk about the severity of the injuries and what you are seeing as a medical doctor inside the emergency room.
- [60:03]
Jonathan Lemire
Well, that's exactly what I saw on our last mission in May. They were all blast injuries. And I think you have to appreciate now that there is no real infrastructure left in Gaza. Everyone has been displaced about 15 times and they're living in tents. So when a bomb goes off in a city of tents, the damage is far more than it has been. And we saw countless children that had or families that had been bombed in their tents. It's huge amounts of destruction to the body. When we first went in the march, we were seeing a lot more shrapnel wounds. When the bombs were going off, whatever masonry was around the people was being whipped up and then ejected at them, them and that would cause a wound. This time we were seeing children coming in without knees, with half of their hand missing, with bits of their foot missing. I mean, it was absolutely abhorrent, the type of injury that very small children are suffering from.
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