← Morning Joe
Morning Joe
DOJ asks federal court to unseal Epstein grand jury transcripts
00:48:41
Trump is reportedly frustrated at having to take the heat for Pam Bondi's handling of the Epstein files.
Loading summary
Transcript79 lines
- [00:00]
Advertiser
Need to restock inventory, cover seasonal dips or manage payroll. On Deck's small Business line of credit provides immediate access to funds up to $100,000 exactly when your business needs it. With flexible draws, transparent pricing and full control over repayment, you can tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. Apply today@ondeck.com and funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. On Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans, an amount subject to lender approval.
- [00:30]
Joe Scarborough
Avoiding your unfinished projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte, paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download Today. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, July 21st, and we have a lot to get to this morning, including President Trump officially taking legal action against the Wall Street Journal over its reporting about a birthday letter that they say he sent to Jeffrey Epstein. Also ahead, we're going to go through reporting on the growing concern inside the White House about Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Plus, President Trump also upset about reporting that says a member of his cabinet is convincing him not to fire the Fed chair. And we're going to have highlights to from Scottie Scheffler's dominant and somehow dominant doesn't quite capture what happened over four days at the British Open, leaving him one major shy of having a career Grand Slam. With us this morning we have the co host of the fourth Hour contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Omir, also president emeritus, the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haas, who fortunately also is our roving golf correspondent, politics bureau chief and senior columnist at Politico, Jonathan Martin and the host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale. I got to, I mean, Richard, I mean, this is why you get paid the big bucks. You are, of course, our golf analyst. Of course, self appointed. You said I want to be your golf analyst like Roger Bennett, your soccer analyst. So this is your time, man. I tell you what, Scottie Scheffler over the four rounds is dominant as anybody I've seen in the majors, it seems. Every shot he made was pin high. Every putt he made was true. It was a remarkable round from a guy who started and I heard as much Talking about this over the weekend as his spectacular golf. Scotty Scheffler started by saying, I'm more than golf. I mean, if I'm not a good husband, if I'm not a good dad, if I'm not a good person, golf doesn't matter. And I think it was his wife who said, scotty's a lot more than a scorecard. Well, that, that means he's a lot. Because his score this weekend was remarkable.
- [03:18]
Mika Brzezinski
No, you're right, Joe. And he gave this extraordinary press conference where he, he spoke about this is almost his philosophy of golf and his philosophy of life and how life was just simply much bigger. And you see it here, the pictures with his, his, his son and a wife. But he is dominating this game. And what's so interesting is how calmly he does it. Unlike the Rory McElroy's or the tiger woods who are on emotional roller coasters all the time, he is eerily calm, eerily steady. He's, he's won four majors already, the second one this year. I think it's a question of when and not if he does what Rory McElroy just did, which is complete the career glance Grand Slam. He simply needs now the, the US Open. He fixed the one weakness in his game, his putting, and he now and the other. It's interesting to listen to the other players. They see him now at a slightly different level. Even the Rory McIlroys and others say, gee, when we see him on the top of the scoreboard, we know he's not going to collapse and he just feels. Just playing at an extraordinary level.
- [04:22]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. And you know, we love seeing, we love seeing golfers who show their emotions also. Nothing, nothing wrong with those who do. I mean, Lee Trevino was beloved because, you know, he was, he was constantly showing his emotions and having fun out there and constantly talking. Scottie Scheffler, just the opposite. And I'll tell you, Jonathan Lemaire, the only time he really showed any emotions was yesterday. He saved a long putt for par and this is what he did. He pumped his fist twice, picked up the ball, went to the next hole. Yeah, it was, it was, it was remarkable. Almost as remarkable as Bregman hectoring Cora to let him in the game so he could put, put the Cubs out of reach.
- [05:10]
Richard Haass
Yeah. Another emotional moment there. Yeah. First, briefly on, on Scheffler. I mean, we will take his word for it and his wife's word for it that he's a lot more than a golfer, but man, he is a machine on the golf course. It is, it is remarkable. And he is so unemotional. Occasional fist bump aside and he is, it's an open and shut case. He's head and shoulders above the rest of the field right now as the best golfer in the world. Truly remarkable. And yes, Joe, the Red Sox, you know, as you know, people watching this show, we live ups and downs, we, you and I, emotional, we are not calm. When it comes to the Boston Red Sox and they come out, they won 10 in a row going into the break. They look pretty lifeless. The first two in Wrigley though we should say against a very good Cubs team. And we're down one nothing late yesterday look like they're going to waste a Garrett Crochet start a bray homerun Bregman pinch hit home run. They get a much needed win.
- [06:02]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. Very exciting. And of course, Jay Mort, the sporting event for you that you wait for year round, of course is the Florida Bama Interstate Mullet Toss. I'm sure a contest that, that you have, you've taken part in many a time.
- [06:20]
Ali Vitale
It's been on the calendar for a while now and I've got my arm sort of wound up for this thing. I think I'm going to be a competitor this year. So for all the folks on 30, I watch out, I'm coming.
- [06:31]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. I'll tell you what, you know, you think it's easy to toss a mullet? I've done it. It is not. It is not. So anyway, one of these years we need to cover the Florabama Interstate Mullet Toss. Now this is what they call in the business, Jay Mort, a hard turn. Let's see if we can do it on this early Monday morning. We're going to be filling the cheese at the out. By the way, yesterday the, the what was it this, the 60th. What, what anniversary was. It was in 69. Yesterday was anniversary 66 of the moon landing.
- [07:13]
Ali Vitale
Yes.
- [07:13]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. Rich 56. Richard, you were old enough the only one on this panel along with me. I was a little kid who fell asleep and woke up crying when my dad brought in the Atlanta Journal Constitution headlines because I just couldn't stay up long enough to see it. But you remember the landing. What an extraordinary time in a not so happy place in America.
- [07:38]
Mika Brzezinski
Absolutely. And I remember watching it with friends on of course, the black and white television.
- [07:44]
Joe Scarborough
And.
- [07:46]
Mika Brzezinski
It was just, it's just one of those moments in your life. I mean you kind of, you think about how you, how you tell the story of your own life and there's the awful things, the assassinations of 68 and so forth. And then there were just the extraordinary things like the moon landing. And then there was, I remember afterwards, Joe, the whole debate about whether they got the. They garbled the one sentence he was supposed to say when he hit the moon and.
- [08:10]
Joe Scarborough
Right. And of course, you also like the fact that they were hitting golf balls and zero gravity conditions.
- [08:17]
Mika Brzezinski
That, that connection there. Thank you.
- [08:19]
Joe Scarborough
That is the connection now that we've made. And there we go, men on the moon. It just extraordinary for a time again, a bleak time in America. That was obviously something that almost everybody took great pride in. All right, well, let's get to the news today. And it involves Israel following Israel's strikes inside Syria Week one, which targeted a government building that the Trump administration is, of course trying to build up. Axios is reporting on recent conversations inside the White House regarding Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government. Long story short, Donald Trump is getting fed up. One White House official described Netanyahu as, quote, a madman to Axios, claiming he bombs everything all the time and that it could undermine the Trump White House's efforts in the region. Another official pointed to the shelling of a Catholic church in Gaza last week, saying, the feeling is that every day there's something new. Six officials also told Axios that last week's attack in Syria, which ended with a U. S brokered ceasefire, left the White House significantly more alarmed about Netanyahu and his regional policies. Let's bring in one of the reporters from the story, White House correspondent for Axios, Mark Caputo, also with his staff writer for the New York Times, Ronan Bergman, who has recently reported on how Netanyahu prolonged the war in Gaza to stay in power. Mark, let's begin with you. And quite an Axios report, something that we had been hearing about from the White House. A bit Donald Trump getting impatient, but that impatience is turning to anger. Tell us about it.
- [10:11]
Mark Caputo
Yeah. From what we understand, it was almost one of those moments where Donald Trump turned on the television. He's like, we're bombing or the Israelis are bombing Damascus, sort of what's going on now, that's not a direct quote, but that was one of the senses that was conveyed to me. And as you just read from that quote, it seems like there's sort of something new every day. There wasn't just the Gaza church bombing. There wasn't just the bombing in Damascus, but then there's been certain social policy issues. Mike Huckabee, who's the U.S. ambassador to Israel had to write a letter essentially threatening Israel because it was blocking visas for Christians who were coming over. That's something Mike Huckabee used to do in his private life prior to rejoining government. In addition to that, there was a Florida man. I'm sorry, I'm going to mispronounce his last name, Saif Mussollet, who was beaten to death in the West Bank. And the United States wants answers about that. They're not getting many answers there either. So there's just these combination of things that are just sort of a mounting frustration. And obviously, the war in Gaza is just sort of dragging on. Trump wants to have an end to it, but it doesn't seem like it's happening yet.
- [11:17]
Joe Scarborough
No, it's certainly not. And you know, Ronan, you look, we've seen, obviously, since October the seventh, Netanyahu doing what the Israeli people and I think most of his allies have wanted him to do, and that is to go after the Hamas terrorist organization. Organization, go after the network. But as the Trump administration is saying, it seems like it's something new every day. Every day you're hearing about more Palestinians getting shot up, getting bombed, getting killed at relief sites where they're starving and they're going for food. You had Mark talking about the bombing of the church in Gaza. Mike Huckabee, after attending a trial for Netanyahu earlier in the week, showed up on the west bank to talk to Christians who were being persecuted again in the West Bank. And that persecution is ongoing. And then, of course, the killing of Americans. And your reporting laid out in great detail what many people have been concerned about now for a year or two, and that is that Netanyahu knows when the shooting stops, his coalition is likely to end as well. And so it's one war after another war after another war, one fight, another fight after another fight. And in the meantime, as I'm sure, Richard Haass. We lost Ron and Richard Haass, I'm sure that you would, would agree that, that, you know, demolishing Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran, hurting Iran's air defense is all great things, but there's a lot of bad with the good. And he seems, he seems content on provoking hostilities every day. At least that's what the Trump administration is saying right now.
- [13:12]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, Joe, I think the distinction you draw is exactly right. There's on one hand where Israel has, quote, unquote, remade the Middle East. What's happened with Iran, what's happened with Hezbollah, the military weakening of Hamas, and that's widely applauded. It's really been quite extraordinary. And I think there's also, and there was and still is great understanding sympathy for Israel about October 7th, where I think Bibi Netanyahu is increasingly lost. The United States and the Middle east, though, is what you might call October 8th and beyond. The continued use of military force in Gaza, where upwards of what now 50, 60,000 people have been killed, the pressure against aid shipments, humanitarian aid getting in, the forcing of over 2 million people into a tiny sliver of territory now, the bombings in Syria at a time the United States has been working with the Saudis in order to consolidate the power of the new government there. The continuing violence in the west bank of settlers against Palestinians there. So what you're seeing is sympathy and even respect on one hand, but a real go at growing distance and alienation on the other. And as Ronan's important reporting showed, that a lot of this seems to be motivated less by a strategic agenda and more by a political agenda.
- [14:35]
Richard Haass
Yeah, it's not just 50 or 60,000 people. So many of these are women and children. We have more reports in recent days about Palestinians just trying to get food and water and being fired upon, people on the ground, witnesses saying something by the Israeli military. I mean, the images coming from that enclave are just, are so terribly ghastly. And Marco Puto, we know President Trump does react to things viscerally. We have heard as well that he has had a hard time with some of the images coming from Gaza. But this is also a president who just a few weeks ago was really celebrating his partnership with Prime Minister Netanyahu over the strikes in Iran, was calling on Israel to quit its criminal prosecution in Netanyahu to abandon that long delayed trial. So take us a little more into your reporting here about his frustration level. Is there a point where even for Trump, Bibi goes too far? And if that's the case, how could that relationship change further?
- [15:33]
Mark Caputo
Yeah, I don't know when that point is. I don't think we're at that point yet. Obviously, publicly, Donald Trump has continued to praise Netanyahu. Privately, he's expressed concerns about what's happening. But in the end, Donald Trump and Netanyahu have had a very long relationship. At times it's been contentious, there has been mistrust. But Donald Trump also knows that October 7th was a terrorist attack. And Hamas is ultimately to blame for it and for the taking of hostages, including some U.S. citizens at the time. And there are still hostages, some remains, that is, some people are dead and the remains are held by Hamas. Others, a Few are still alive and they haven't been returned. And so until Hamas kind of negotiates more in good faith, I think Donald Trump is going to continue to stick by Netanyahu. That having been said, if Netanyahu does what he did last week, which is to sort of start bombing another country, in this case Syria, without giving the United States a heads up or a say, it's going to continue to cause continuous problems. There's this sort of delicate balancing act in the Middle east, and Netanyahu is sort of the one who is setting the apple cart at different times in other countries. One thing I think that's important to know is other countries in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia, uae, Qatar, they're coming the United States, and they're pitching the US Saying we can be as reliable a partner as Israel without the drama. And that starts to have a real effect on the ears of US Policymakers, including Donald Trump.
- [17:05]
Joe Scarborough
Ryan, talk about your piece. And also the belief among many foreign policy analysts in America and also many military officials and intel officials in Israel that the Gaza war militarily should have ended a year ago.
- [17:24]
Ronan Bergman
Yeah. So together with Patrick Kingsley, Nata Northenheim, my colleagues at the Times we spoke, we've spoken with 110 officials. These are from the US from the Gulf, from Hamas, from Qatar, from other places, but mainly from Israel. And all of them have experience with Netanyahu, worked with Netanyahu, other Netanyahu in the past, also in the present. And the vast majority of them are saying that Netanyahu had many chances to end the war in Gaza. And he was on a T junction. He could take a right turn to end the war, to end the hostilities, to sign a very prolonged ceasefire agreement with Hamas. This will bring also benefit to him as a political leader. He got as close as possible to sign reconciliation and peace agreement with the most important Arab states, Saudi Arabia. This is something that could boost his career now. And of course it will bring back the hostages. The one most important point now, it's not that he doesn't want the hostages to come back or he doesn't want to have reconciliation with Saudi Arabia. It's just that there are things that he wants more or less more, we may be more precise, there are things that he fears more and the integrity of the coalition. Every time again and again during the last year, maybe even more than last year, when he was on that brink of agreement, on the brink of that T junction, he took another turn. And the other turn was fearing the ultra right, the ultra nationalists of his coalition, that they will disassemble the coalition, they will break down the government. And he chose their way, he preferred their way upon a much more peaceful way. That will be a page opener to a new Middle East.
- [19:13]
Joe Scarborough
You know, it sounds actually just like just the absolute reverse of what happened in 2000 after negotiations coming out of the Oslo Accords, where Yasser Arafat was given an extraordinary deal, the best deal the Palestinians had been given, as Bill and Hillary Clinton explain all the time. And he wouldn't do it because he feared he would lose power and possibly lose his life. With Netanyahu, you talk about the fact that again, if he made this deal, if he brought peace, even if that brought all the hostages home, you say he feared the possibility of losing his coalition and possibly even worse.
- [19:59]
Ronan Bergman
Yeah, it's not losing his life, but one needs to bear in mind that he is under charges of severe corruption and bribe. And the way that he acts, it means that he believes that to fight the charges that potentially could lead him to jail is from the seat of the prime minister. So for himself, the way he assesses it, he needs to be the prime minister. He needs to be the prime minister. He needs to have a coalition. He needs to have a coalition the way he sees the world. He needs to continue his alignment with the ultra right and the ultra nationalists and the settlers in his government. Now, I heard before from one of my colleagues at Axios that Hamas is not negotiating with good faith. Now, Hamas is, of course, the entity that kidnapped those people. They are to be blamed for everything happening to them. But if, but just one, one small detail. If Netanyahu wants, there will be a deal tomorrow morning. All the hostages are to be brought back tomorrow morning. It's all about Netanyahu. And as we saw in January in the previous deal, it's all about the Trump government to put the Trump administration to put enough pressure on Netanyahu. And if they do that, we could have a deal tomorrow morning and hold the hostages, the live hostages and the dead hostages will. Their parents will have a grave to cry on. This could happen imminently. And it's all about the Israeli prime.
- [21:30]
Joe Scarborough
Minister to make a call and whether Netanyahu actually wants those hostages home or not. Ronan Bergman with the New York Times and Mark Caputo of Axios, thank you both for your reporting, greatly appreciate it. J Mart, let's, let, let's talk about, obviously, the relationship with Trump and Netanyahu is fraying. It's never been, it's, it hasn't been great since the 2020 election when Netanyahu called Biden and congratulated him for the victory. It's been rough then. Also, though, just behind the scenes, they've never had a great deal of respect for Netanyahu. They've seen him as a blowhard. They just. And so, yeah, Donald Trump, just as he's getting very frustrated with Vladimir Putin right now, the same thing is happening with Netanyahu. Where does it go from here?
- [22:22]
Ali Vitale
And what's the through line, Joe, between Trump's frustration with Netanyahu and Putin? It's the same thing.
- [22:28]
Joe Scarborough
It is.
- [22:29]
Ali Vitale
It's a distraction from Trump. You don't have to imagine this. Trump will say it out loud either to the cameras or on Twitter, truth, as he calls it. And that is, I've had this amazing first six months. Why do you people want to talk about Jeffrey Epstein? Or why is Bibi still bombing a church in Gaza? Why won't Putin stop the war in Ukraine? It's a distraction from me. And I think that's what drives him crazy, Joe, is that he just doesn't want these bad images on TV because he wants to tell his story. And whether it's going after Gaza still to no end, or Putin, you know, going after orphanages in Kiev, it's the same problem that Trump has. And so that's why Trump is never going to stick with anybody. It doesn't matter if it's Bibi or Putin or anybody else. There's no long term deal, as I wrote last week with Trump, to borrow from Henry Kissinger, there's no friends, there's no enemies. There's only Trump's interests.
- [23:32]
Joe Scarborough
And Jonathan, also, Israel obviously has maintained a strong, strong alliance with more conservative Americans, with Republicans, with the evangelicals. But now we're seeing Americans being killed in the West Bank. We're seeing Catholic churches being bombed by the Israelis in Gaza. And again, as we've talked about on this show, as Matt Bradley's reported from the West Bank, Christian persecution continuing every day. Christians being targeted and attacked every day by radical settlers on the West Bank. At some point, this is going to blow up politically, it would seem to me, on a group of people who have been Netanyahu's strongest base in America.
- [24:25]
Ali Vitale
Yeah, the real tell to me, Joe, was Ambassador Huckabee, no stronger supporter of Israel, certainly of the Netanyahu government, you know, in the bunker the night that they attacked Iran, you know, pointedly writing a letter about the killing of the American in the west bank. And, or, I'm sorry, in the settlement. And look, that to me tells you something about the level of frustration the pope, obviously an American speaking out over the weekend about the bombing of a Catholic church in Gaza. I think that combined just with Bibi's recalcitrants refusal to sort of stop the bombing, I think gives Trump and gives some of his allies great frustration. And it's a reminder to Bibi, yes, you can bring that letter for the Nobel Peace Prize for Trump, but 10 days later, if you're creating bad headlines for Donald Trump, that paper isn't worth what it's written on.
- [25:24]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, expanding war into Syria and as you said, bombing a Catholic church in Gaza. And then Mike Huckabee also going to see Christian leaders in the west bank whose village is getting attacked, whose property is getting destroyed, whose houses reportedly getting set on fire. Yeah, not, not a positive move for Netanyahu's relationship with Donald Trump and his Axios and others are reporting this weekend. And we'll get back to Richard on this later in the show. Not, not good for Donald Trump's relationship with Benjamin Netanyahu. Still ahead of the Morning Joe, New York City police say an off duty Border Patrol agent was shot by an illegal immigrant in a Manhattan park. We've got then YPD's Chief of Department John Shell with us next to talk about that case. Plus, we're going to dig into a new report on how Treasury Secretary Scott Bessick allegedly made the case to President Trump against the firing of Fed Chair Jerome Powell and how the president wasn't happy that that was leaked to the Wall Street Journal. And a reminder that the Morning Joe podcast is available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis. You listen, you can listen to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. And that really does seem to make sense. We're trying to keep it easy for you. Morning Joe. We'll be right back.
- [26:57]
Advertiser
Cash flow crunch on Deck Small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $100,000 right when you need it, cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today@ondeck.com fund could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic bank on Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amount subject to lender approval.
- [27:28]
Joe Scarborough
MSNBC Films presents Season 2 of Leguizamo does America, an NBC News Studios production hosted by John Leguizamo. On the next episode, John travels to New Orleans, the Big Easy. You can hear jazz just about everywhere. And if you find the right spot, Latin jazz Leguizamo. Does America Continue? Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC and streaming on Peacock. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter, sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [28:15]
Richard Haass
A live look at the New York City skyline on this Monday morning. It is indeed Monday again. Back to the news now. President Donald Trump has followed through on his threat to sue media mogul Rupert Murdoch and the Wall street journal, less than 24 hours after that newspaper published an article saying that Trump sent his then friend Jeffrey Epstein a body birthday letter back in 2003. The lawsuit filed on Friday seeks at least $10 billion in damages, arguing the supposed letter is a fake and the defendants knew it when they chose to deliberately defame President Trump. The Journal's publisher, Dow Jones, pushed back, saying in a statement, quote, we have full confidence in the rigor and accuracy of our reporting and will vigorously defend against any lawsuit. Meanwhile, the Justice Department on Friday asked a federal judge to unseal grand jury transcripts tied to the criminal cases of Epstein and his co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell. And I have some new reporting that emerged over the weekend. My colleague Ashley Parker for the Atlantic about the war, the strategy the White House has tried to put forth to quell this firestorm about Epstein. They considered appointing a special counsel. They considered last week before the Journal story releasing more material. They even thought that President Trump might want to have daily news conferences to address this a la those he had during the COVID pandemic in 2020. Trump nixed all those. And there were some in Trump world who thought those news conferences in particular would have been a bad idea. Some of the firestorm on the right has quieted down in recent days. Ali vitali, President Trump has done a pretty good job sort of unifying his base to go after a common foe in this case, the Wall Street Journal. Yeah, some of those on the right were very critical of Trump and his handling of Epstein, demanding to now are questioning the authenticity of this letter. As we noted, the Journal, of course, stands by it. So let's get into the next phase of this. There are rumblings that more revelations could be coming. The White House is eager to turn the page. But it's Monday. He's going to get questions about it. He hasn't taken questions from the press in a few days. You know they're coming the next time a reporter sees them. Speaker Johnson in particular was one of those who defied him last week and said, look, we need to know more. What's the latest you're hearing from Republicans on the Hill and in the greater GOP ecosphere, what they want next?
- [30:43]
Advertiser
I think Johnson might have defied him. But as soon as the headlines started popping that Johnson was demanding more transparency, just as Trump was saying, let's cool it and back off of this issue, Johnson made clear to say, no, no, I think those headlines are overstating what I said there. So he's trying to toe this line. And if Johnson really did want more transparency, he's actually got procedural options before him from a legislative perspective because there's a bipartisan push from Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna to compel the Justice Department to release and be transparent on the Jeffrey Epstein case. They moved a procedural motion on this in a non binding fashion at the end of last week. They weirdly kind of coupled it together with the crypto resolution and bill that they ended up passing. But it's not expected that we'll actually see movement on that. And then separately, J Mart, you've got this discharge petition that could get ripe for the floor by the time they get back in September. That's a long ways to go, though. And I think to me, if I look on the Hill, there's only a few tangible ways that they end up getting more answers to this. And yes, one of them might be a discharge petition, but the one that really has my attention is Senator Ron Wyden saying, in the last year of the Biden administration, I got a look from the Treasury Department at some financial transactions that show wire transfers and other items related to Epstein and who might have been doing business with him. In Wyden's words, that's thousands of leads that you could go down of following the money. Is that one of the avenues where people get something tangible out of this? Is it from Dick Durbin who's trying to lobby DOJ for more information? I mean, is there a space here that actually gets people more?
- [32:20]
Ali Vitale
I think it's only whatever Trump and his DOJ wants to hand over. I just don't think that that ultimately this Congress is going to press Trump on something he doesn't want to be pressed on. We've seen this on the Lindsey Graham sanctions bill against Russia that we were told could happen in the June work period. Well, it's now July 20th, 21st, and it's not moving because Trump doesn't want it. Trump is going to hand over what he wants to hand over on this. Look, I think if that discharge petitionality had been maybe moved last week at the sort of white hot core of this story, maybe would have a shot. I just think by the time they come back in September, the idea of a GOP majority taking up that to sort of create a bad story for Trump after Labor Day is really unlikely.
- [33:10]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, it's just not going to happen. It's not going to happen in part. Like you said, if something had moved last week when this story was white hot, that would be one thing. When you had all of these maga, you know, podcasters going out saying your base is in a rage, your base is angry at you, Mr. President, etcetera, etc, etcetera. Maybe there may have been movement, but what do politicians do, especially politicians in the era of Donald Trump? They look at polls. And I want to throw this to you, J. Martin Ali also. So let's look at a couple of polls that came out recently and they show Donald Trump with overall with Americans. His approval rating is in the low 40s. And this CBS News YouGov approval 42 disapprove 58. But look at support among Republicans all the way up in the high 80s, 89% job approval among Republicans according to this CBS News YouGov poll. There is also an economist YouGov poll where the numbers were pretty identical there. The approval rating among Republicans was 84% while his overall approval rating was 41%. But the numbers, I'm sure J Mart, that President Trump is looking at right now is he's looking to see see if there's movement among his hardcore base or whether that's just social media types and podcasters who are churning up their audience on this. And right now it certainly looks there. You see 84% approval among Republicans right now. It certainly is looking like his base is sticking with him through Epstein so he doesn't have to really listen podcasters telling him he has to show the American people more.
- [35:14]
Ali Vitale
And who's the one pushing the discharge petition? It is Thomas Massie, who's the only House Republican who has had the spine to repeatedly vote against Trump and the party line. So yeah, look, if you're a member of Congress, Joe, and you're trying to figure out is the water warm to get in and defy this president, who are you gonna look to? You gonna look to an angry podcaster and somebody who's deep in a conspiracy rabbit hole, or are you gonna look to Data showing that, guess what? Trump's a 9010 with your primary voters. I think we know the answer to that.
- [35:54]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, Ali, I mean, again, you cover the Hill. When these Republicans are looking at Donald Trump's approval rating at 90%, 89% among Republicans, Republicans, they're not going to be pushing any discharge petition to drive him out. The base is staying with Donald Trump like it always has.
- [36:12]
Advertiser
And by the way, if this is still a story in September, then the larger issue here is how the White House hasn't been able to find any kind of an off ramp whatsoever. That would be utterly striking. And I think the NBC reporting, though, from over the weekend is really interesting. The idea that Trump is frustrated by having to be the person that takes the heat for his attorney general. I think we all knew that it was only a matter of time until he got there. But really leaving this now at her feet, trying to shirk all of the responsibility, despite the fact that all of them pushed these conspiracy theories, said that putting them back in the White House would be the thing that got their voters the transparency that they so demand on this issue. Now, Trump is going to try to push this squarely into the Department of Justice. And you're watching this, too in real time. This administration has had success in leveraging its supporters against the courts. And so now when they say, all right, we're going to press the courts to release pertinent grand jury information that's relevant to Epstein, that's not going to cast the broad, wide net that his supporters want when they're talking about the existence or not of a client list for Epstein. They want a broader list of people here. That's not what the grand jury files are likely to produce, but it's also a question. Grand jury files, and we all know that are regularly shrouded in secrecy for good reason. And so whether the courts actually allow the release of that could let the Trump administration, the Department of Justice, say, look, we did try. It just didn't work out this way. And then once again, they're back in the position, Joe, that they've been this entire term, which is when the courts block them, they say, look, the judges are the ones that don't want you to have the transparency on this. And I think that actually could be a good way of getting out of it without actually doing anything thing.
- [37:49]
Joe Scarborough
And the questions being asked whether this will still be a story in September and Congress returns, I think the more pertinent, pertinent question right now is will this still be a story in August unless shoes continue to drop now that the MAGA base has aligned itself and Democrats and NBC reporting is as said all along that there was no there there as far as grand conspiracy theory pushed by the maga, right. Chances are good this story will not even make it into August. Unless of course, as I said, several other shoes drop. The host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale, thank you so much. Great to have you with us. And POLITICO's Jonathan Martin, thank you as well. I understand that your life is not wrapped up and winning the Florabama International Mullet toss, but we, we love you all the same because you're such a, such a cold hearted competitor. Wind up toss, baby.
- [38:55]
Ali Vitale
Watch out, watch out, man.
- [38:58]
Joe Scarborough
The king of 38 is coming to the Florida Bama. And coming up next, we're going to take a closer look at the fallout from the decision to cancel the Late show with Stephen Colbert. As Vanity Fair's Molly John Fast argues, the move by CBS executives is, quote, not funny. She's going to join us to explain it. Plus, we're going to bring you the latest in the shooting of an off duty border patrol agent in New York City and what President Trump is saying about it. Morning Joe. We'll be right back.
- [39:33]
Richard Haass
Cash flow Crunch on Deck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to 100,000 doll.
- [39:40]
Joe Scarborough
Dollars right when you need it.
- [39:41]
Richard Haass
Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat.
- [39:47]
Joe Scarborough
With flexible draws, transparent pricing and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently.
- [39:53]
Richard Haass
Apply today@ondeck.com funds could be available as soon as tomorrow.
- [39:57]
Joe Scarborough
Depending on certain loan attributes, your business.
- [39:59]
Richard Haass
Loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic. Bank on Deck does not lend to North Dakota.
- [40:02]
Joe Scarborough
All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people. The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this. Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47 hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why is this Happening?
- [40:37]
Mark Caputo
A special crossover episode with the hosts.
- [40:39]
Joe Scarborough
Of the Strict Scrutiny podcast. I think the Supreme Court massively misplayed this.
- [40:45]
Advertiser
End of term, my solution would be more trying to address the underlying structural.
- [40:52]
Joe Scarborough
Issues that allow us to get to.
- [40:54]
Advertiser
A point where a minority faction that.
- [40:57]
Joe Scarborough
Is not committed to and antagonistic to the rule of law can get power.
- [41:02]
Advertiser
The bigger fundamental problem is that we have never done the work in this country of actually wrestling with our deep seated antipathy for a multiracial, multi faith pluralistic democracy.
- [41:14]
Joe Scarborough
That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever you're listening right now and follow to.
- [41:20]
Ronan Bergman
Announce that we have a person of interest in custody in New York City. This 21 year old male has prior arrest for assault and violated in order protection at the time of this shooting. He had an active bench warrant from.
- [41:36]
Joe Scarborough
The Bronx, was wanted for a robbery.
- [41:39]
Ronan Bergman
From last December and a stabbing from January, a robbery from last December and a stabbing in January. In less than one year he has inflicted violence in our city and once he is charged for last night's crimes, we will be able to add attempted murder to his rap sheet.
- [42:02]
Joe Scarborough
New York City Mayor Eric Adams announcing the arrest of a suspect in the shooting of an off duty Customs and Border Protection officer. NBC News correspondent Kamala Bernal has the details. This is the moment DHS says an off duty Customs and Border Protection officer is ambushed and shot late Saturday by a man with a deportation order order. Authorities believe two men who approached on a scooter were attempting to rob the 42 year old officer who was in a park with a friend. Two senior law enforcement sources say it appears to be a random encounter. The alleged shooter identified by police as Miguel Francisco Moran Nunez of the Dominican Republic. New York City's police commissioner says he approached the officer from behind and that's when the officer drew his service weapon. The perp fired first and an exchange of gunfire followed. The officer was struck in the forearm and in the face. Moran Nunez was taken into custody after going to the hospital to be treated for his injuries. Authorities confirming he had previously been arrested for domestic violence, robbery, assault and was wanted in Massachusetts for kidnapping. President Trump saying on Truth Social that Mora Nunez was apprehended at the border in April 2023, but instead of being deported, was released. Let's make something incredibly clear tonight. Today our officer is a hero. If not for his efforts, this person of interest would have committed more armed robberies. The officer is expected to make a full recovery. With US now, the NYPD's chief of department, John Shell. Chief, tell us what happened.
- [43:50]
John Shell
Well, this Miguel Mora went into a park on Saturday night, Riverside park and two people on a moped which you've seen in the city for years. And we think he committed one robbery five minutes prior to trying to rob our federal agent. And you saw the shootout. You know, quite frankly, this is. This should never have happened. And thank God he's going to be okay. But let's just timeline this. Mr. Mora came into this country April of 23. He was giving a notice to appear for a judge hearing. He didn't show up. The judge issued a deportation order November 6 of 24. He goes in front of a judge a couple weeks later for an arrest. And by our sanctuary city laws, we can't detain him from there. He decides to rob someone in the Bronx In December of 24, stab someone in January of 25 in the Bronx, and it takes a trip to Worcester County, Mass. And robs a pawn store of numerous firearms. Don't know what he was doing from January till this past Saturday night where you see two guys in a moped we've dealt with for years. Rob's perseverance, robbery five minutes prior. Approach a federal agent. You see the video right in front of you. The point that we're making here is this should never have occurred. We need thoughtful change to our sanctuary city laws in the city that protects our New Yorkers. And that's what he was. He was in New York, who happened to be an agent sitting in a park from these kind of criminals. And it's a small minority. We're not talking about the majority majority. Work hard, honest people, pursuit of the American dream. This person here, Miguel Moore, is the poster child for what is wrong with sanctuary city status in New York City.
- [45:42]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. And chief, you have said that you've been very careful to explain. You understand the purpose behind sanctuary cities and you understand that it's motivated by, By. By people with all of the best intentions. But the practical effect of that leads often to crimes like this. Again, it's a minority of those that have come to this country illegally. But still the inability to be able to lock them up because of a sanctuary city status, you say that's the real problem here.
- [46:25]
John Shell
No doubt about it. Like I said, we're a benevolent city. We want people to pursue the American dream. Hard work and honest monuments. No doubt about it. There should be a path for you. But in a small minority, this judge should have the opportunity to detain this person. The people who were robbed, stabbed, this border patrol officer, shot in the face, missing seven teeth and a bullet lodged in it. They don't care about sanctuary seat. They care about their safety. And this is what we are talking about, about thoughtful, thoughtful change for consequences for these actions.
- [46:55]
Joe Scarborough
You know, Richard Haass, it was fascinating. We have many people in New York that had never really been touched by the impact of illegal immigration. And after there was an influx, many sent from Texas and I think perhaps Florida. I forget where, where they were bused in from. Suddenly I started hearing from liberal friends who had never voted for a Republican in their life sounding like, like people across the rest of the country being concerned about being overwhelmed by illegal immigrants. Public services, the fear of crime, again, much of that's overblown. And as the chief said, the because you know, the number of actual crimes are limited. In fact, there's been one study after another study after another study through the years that show Native Americans commit crimes at a higher percentage than illegal immigrants that come into this country. That said you should have laws that allow you to arrest people that have committed crimes and keep them in jail.
- [48:14]
Mika Brzezinski
No, absolutely. Joe and I would think that this is a legitimate topic here. We are what, three and a half months away from an election in this city. And I would think this is an issue that ought to be front and center amongst the would be mayors here about what they're prepared to do to make the sort of thing that happened this weekend less likely, what changes they're prepared to introduce to sanctuary city status that would make New York safer.
- [48:45]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah.
- [48:45]
Richard Haass
And we heard from President Trump, of course, over the weekend talking about this case he has vilified, contrary to statistics saying illegal immigrants are responsible for so many crimes. So Chief, while we have you here, just get your sense as to look, we're now at the midway point of this summer, certainly particularly post pandemic. There's been a lot of scrutiny on big cities and violent crime. Talk to us about what trends you're seeing here in New York City. As Richard mentioned, just a few months from an extremely important election.
- [49:13]
John Shell
Right. So big timeline for we came in 2020. We've spoken about it here before. But in terms of crime in the city, violence in the city going down, especially shooting violence going way down, quality of life, you can see it's getting better. So we're in a good trajectory as we, as we, as we close out this year and hopefully that will, that momentum continues. You know, we've worked so hard with this police department to help this city. Safety is the prerequisite of everything. We can't go backwards. We cannot go back to days we're on our heels. We cannot go back to days where cops get water poured on the head and don't do anything about it. We have to stay in this posture to help People fix their quiet life, but take the bad people off the street as a collective to keep the city safe. There's no going backwards here. There really isn't.
- [49:58]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. Chief, I want to ask you, I mean, again, we're talking about the. This terrible incident, this crime, the shooting that happened over the weekend. I am curious, though, just put it in perspective for us about the safety of New York City. Before the pandemic, crime rates were at a 50 year low. I understand that violent crime has been plummeting since 2021. Talk about put it in perspective. Where are we right now? How safe is New York City compared to other cities?
- [50:30]
John Shell
Look, we say it all the time. I think we're the safest big city in America. Our numbers indicated. And we have, you know, we're in Mecca, right? We have eight and a half million people, 24, 7, 365 in the city. Our friends, our families, everything else. But, you know, crime is going down, Right? And like you just mentioned, since 2021, when you take the amount of firearms, illegal guns, off our streets, 22,000, it translates to record lows and people getting shot and murders. So it's not rocket science how this goes. And we're doing this where we're understaffed, too, by a couple thousand officers. So it's a credit to our team, but it's also a credit to just the young men and women, detectives and cops out in the field who are doing this work and keeping the city safe. So very proud of them. A lot of work to do still. But we cannot go backwards. This is not an option.
- [51:19]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, but post pandemic, you're still down cops. How many police officers do you need to be back at full level? And how do you get there?
- [51:29]
John Shell
Well, look, we're at 40,000 on our peak, all right? We're at 34,000 and change right now. We'd like to at least get to 35, but there's a sweet spot in the middle there. We're doing heavy recruiting. We've made some alterations to our requirements. We're getting more applicants. So we think we're going to increase the size of the staffing of this department, but it's going to take a couple of years because we still fight attrition, Right? It's not a net number, so it's going to take a cumulative years of doing this and we will get back.
- [51:58]
Joe Scarborough
All right? Chief of Department at the nypd, John Shell. Thank you so much for being with us. And as always, thank you, sir, for your service. We greatly appreciate it.
- [52:08]
John Shell
My pleasure, guys. My pleasure, Chief.
- [52:10]
Joe Scarborough
All right. And still, Ed, Scotty Scheffler ran away with a British Open, and it's because he saw the only weakness in his game. Pablo Torre joins us to explain that, along with our international golf correspondent, Richard Haass. And also President Trump's new demand when it comes to the name of Washington's football team and I think Cleveland's baseball team as well.