Fallout at CDC after director ousted and other top officials resign

Summary

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Morning Joe Podcast Summary

Episode: Fallout at CDC after director ousted and other top officials resign
Date: August 29, 2025
Hosts: Katty Kay (in for Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Willie Geist)
Panel: Sam Stein, Jonathan Martin, David Ignatius, Pablo Torre
Guest: Dr. Vin Gupta

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Episode Overview

This episode explores major upheaval in key American institutions—the CDC and the Federal Reserve—amid sweeping policy and personnel changes by the Trump administration. The panel unpacks the public health fallout from the ouster of CDC Director Susan Menarez, escalating turmoil following a realignment of vaccine policy, and analyzes how these events fit into ongoing transformations of federal governance, including the attempted firing of Fed Governor Lisa Cook. The conversation then pivots to Russia’s war in Ukraine and a tragic mass shooting in Minneapolis, examining not just the headlines but the deeper undercurrents shaping America’s future.

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CDC Upheaval: Director Ousted, Top Officials Resign

[03:30–08:36] Key Segment

What Happened

• CDC Director Susan Menarez was ousted after refusing to endorse new vaccine guidance pushed by Health Secretary RFK Jr., who had stacked an influential vaccine advisory committee with vaccine skeptics.
• Multiple top CDC officials resigned in protest, criticizing the sidelining of scientific feedback and policy shifts that undermine vaccine access.
• Senator Bill Cassidy, a physician and Republican chairing the Senate Health Committee, who supported Kennedy after assurances on vaccine policy, is now calling for a postponement of the next vaccine approval meeting, questioning its legitimacy.

Panel Insights

• Jonathan Martin [04:36]: “Well, it’s profound. You saw the outpouring of support in the streets of Atlanta. You don’t typically see government employees throwing bouquets to their bosses outside of federal agencies, let’s put it that way.”
• The firings and resignations are described as unprecedented, highlighting the dangers of politicizing science, particularly as children return to school nationwide.
• Menarez’s ouster “was profoundly serious in the public health sense,” said Martin, emphasizing the real-world health risks this poses.

Political Dynamics

• The panel highlights RFK Jr.’s role as a vaccine skeptic and questions the latitude given to him by President Trump.
• Sam Stein [07:20]: “Kennedy’s impact on our public health in America has been more than just profound, it’s been damaging...We’re talking about people who will die because of this.”

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The Politicization and Fragility of Scientific Institutions

[08:36–11:49] Key Segment

• David Ignatius [09:20]: Stressed the long-term damage to American scientific leadership:

  “Of all the things Trump has done, the actions against public health agencies, against university research...could prove to be the most damaging, the hardest to repair. These are generational projects. Laboratories at great universities get broken apart. People leave, go to other countries...It’s going to be very hard to get them back.”

• International competition for American scientific talent (UK and China in particular) is increasing as U.S. scientists consider leaving because of political pressure and decimated agency morale.
• The panel reflects on how these shifts make America unrecognizable compared to its legacy as a global scientific powerhouse.

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Federal Reserve and Expansion of Presidential Power

[11:55–18:56] Key Segment

The Situation

• Fed Governor Lisa Cook’s firing: President Trump’s attempt to remove her (for alleged “mortgage fraud,” uncharged) is being challenged as illegal and unprecedented.
• Lisa Cook’s lawsuit claims the President lacks authority to remove Fed governors except “for cause,” as defined by longstanding tradition.

Panel Analysis

• Katty Kay [16:00]:

  “We are in uncharted waters because Donald Trump has been out of office for four years looking at every possible way he can expand presidential power, and this seems to be one of them.”

• Jonathan Martin [16:55]: Noted the ambiguity in the law and the unique quasi-independent status of the Fed, predicting a major Supreme Court battle.
• The risk is highlighted of wider Congressional and political inaction as Trump tests the limits of American institutions on multiple fronts simultaneously.

Senate Reaction

• The Senate must confirm any replacement for Cook, but there is skepticism in the panel that Republicans would meaningfully resist Trump’s nominees, even after past refusals to confirm unqualified candidates.

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The Sense of National “Unsettledness”

[19:23–20:22] Key Segment

• Sam Stein [19:26]:

  “Our cities are unsettled, our health agencies are unsettled, our foreign policies are unsettled...Trump likes to thrive and thrives, honestly, in these moments of chaos and that he himself is a chaos agent. But there is something risky about it...it’s exhausting.”

• The panel observes that although the economy is relatively stable, every other aspect of American governance is in flux or crisis.

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Ukraine: American and European Response to Russian Escalation

[20:30–26:29] Key Segment

The Latest

• Russian missile and drone attacks killed dozens in Kyiv, including children; US and Europe remain aligned, but Trump’s mediation attempts regarding Russia-Ukraine peace talks have failed.
• Panel discusses prospects for more aggressive sanctions on Russia and the Senate’s growing appetite for action, even as Trump’s commitment seems uncertain.

Notable Quotes

• David Ignatius [22:22]:

  “This is really the moment in which Trump has to identify whether he’s serious enough about making peace to respond to Putin’s attempts...I proposed...rather than talking about security guarantees for the future...it’s time to institute them now...Ukrainians need security protection.”

• Jonathan Martin [25:08]:

  “In the Senate, it’s more than a chunk. It’s the vast majority of Republican senators who are still Reaganites in foreign policy. Lindsey Graham has a bill with 84 co-sponsors now to impose harsh secondary sanctions on Russia...If there was ever an opportunity for this Congress to project some Article 1 power, some independence on foreign policy, it is this moment.”

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Minneapolis Mass Shooting: Grief, Routine, and Political Paralysis

[29:21–37:41] Key Segment

The Event

• Two children (Harper Moisky, 10; Fletcher Merkel, 8) were killed in a church school shooting. The father of Fletcher Merkel delivered an emotional statement:
  • Fletcher’s father [29:42]:

    "A coward decided to take our 8 year old son Fletcher away from us...Please remember Fletcher for the person he was and not the act that ended his life. Give your kids an extra hug and kiss today. We love you, Fletcher. You'll always be with us."

Panel Reflection

• Sam Stein [30:38]: Expressed how routine mass shootings have become, lamenting his own sense of callousness:

  “What troubles me a lot is how routine it has now become...I can't believe how horribly calloused I've become by this...The fact that this is part of our American social fabric...is totally unacceptable to me. And yet...I've learned to accept it because this is just how we live.”

• The normalization and political deadlock over gun violence, especially as children repeatedly have to practice active shooter drills in schools.

The Debate

• President J.D. Vance and others attribute the shooting to a broader mental health crisis, raising questions about the futility of focusing solely on mental health over gun access.
• Pablo Torre [35:53]:

  “I just fail to see how that is a more useful direction for the American attention than actual practical solutions to gun control… why isn't there litigation? Why aren’t there civil suits...Guns in America, firearms, because of PLCAA, those manufacturers are immune. That is a practical question, a practical direction for us to maybe wonder about aloud...”

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Deep Dive: The Fallout at the CDC – Expert Commentary

[40:18–45:58] Dr. Vin Gupta Interview

Key Points

• Impact on Everyday Americans: Dr. Vin Gupta explains that neutering the CDC advisory mechanism directly affects Americans’ vaccine access—pharmacists, who administered 90% of COVID vaccines during the pandemic, are increasingly unable to do their jobs as vaccine distribution becomes constrained.
• Consequences of Vaccine Skepticism: Upcoming CDC leadership (Jim O’Neill, seen as a rubber-stamp for Kennedy’s skeptical, anti-mRNA views) could shift longstanding, gold-standard science to fringe positions, imperiling not only infectious disease control but broader advances like cancer treatments.
• Gupta [43:36]:

  “The challenge here is gold standard science...matters less than a megaphone and the ability to be really good at marketing, which [Kennedy] is amazing at...decades of research showing that there's no correlation [between vaccines and autism]...doesn't matter. What matters here is marketing skills.”

• Policy changes affecting pharmacies: Already, in at least 16 states, major chains like CVS are not able to offer COVID vaccinations due to these regulatory and policy shifts.

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Brief: Other Headlines

• Return of Confederate Iconography: The Pentagon is returning a Robert E. Lee portrait to the West Point library, stirring debate about national memory versus historical rejection of Confederate symbols. Panel highlights this as a “wedge issue” favored by Trump for political effect.
• FAA/NJ Airport Issues: FAA grounds flights at Newark over equipment failure—panel jokes about the seemingly cursed airport.
• Judicial Developments: New trial granted for Memphis officers related to Tyre Nichols’ death.
• White House critiques George Soros on social media, setting up another “target of the day.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• David Ignatius [09:20]: “Laboratories at great universities get broken apart. People leave, go to other countries...It’s going to be very hard to get them back.”
• Sam Stein [08:20]: “Kennedy has now taken concrete steps to end the use of mRNA technology...We're talking about people who will die because of this.”
• Katty Kay [06:09]: “[Trump's] kind of caught between a rock and a hard place—wants credit for vaccines, but his MAGA base is full of vaccine skeptics.”
• Fletcher Merkel’s father’s statement [29:42]: Heartbreaking human moment on the cost of gun violence.
• Pablo Torre [15:50]: (On Trump’s playbook) – “All of this feels familiar. All of it feels like we’re in reruns.”
• Jonathan Martin [20:22]: “Just real fast, though—the economy’s not unsettled, it’s kind of placid, actually, which is remarkable given the interventions therein.”
• Katty Kay [37:41]: “The population is there...But the infrastructure of American government doesn't seem to meet the moment, doesn't seem matched to doing what the American public wants it to do.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• CDC Fallout & Political Dynamics: 03:30–08:36
• The Attack on Scientific Institutions: 08:36–11:49
• Federal Reserve Power Struggle: 11:55–18:56
• General Feeling of Instability: 19:23–20:22
• Ukraine Situation & Congress: 20:30–26:29
• Minneapolis School Shooting Coverage: 29:21–37:41
• Dr. Vin Gupta on Vaccine Policy Chaos: 40:18–45:58

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Conclusion

This episode of Morning Joe captures a historic moment of institutional conflict, as the Trump administration tests the boundaries of political control across public health, central banking, and more. The discussions are urgent and sobering, with a panel of journalists and experts warning of damages that could last generations—from vaccine access and scientific innovation to gun safety and America’s role in world affairs. A must-listen for those tracking the fault lines reshaping modern American governance.

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Transcript

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[Jonathan Martin]

Mr. Kennedy and the administration reached out seeking to reassure me regarding their commitment to to protecting the public health benefit of vaccination. These commitments and my expectation that we.

[David Ignatius]

Can have a great working relationship to.

[Jonathan Martin]

Make America healthy again is the basis of my support.

[Sam Stein]

He will be the secretary, but I.

[Jonathan Martin]

Believe he will also be a partner in working for this end.

[Katty Kay]

That was Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, a longtime medical doctor, letting out a big sigh seven months ago while showing support for Health Secretary RFK Jr. After receiving reassurances on vaccines. But now the health secretary is creating chaos at the CDC as the Trump administration attempts to reshape public health policies. Meanwhile, President Trump is trying to transform the Federal Reserve by firing Fed Governor Lisa Cook will preview a hearing later this morning that may decide whether she keeps her job. And we'll bring you the latest on a planned surge of federal agents to Chicago next week as the Trump administration again ramps up its crackdown on immigrants. Good morning and welcome to Morning Jo. It is Friday, August 29th, very end of summer, guys, and America is being remade. I'm Katty Kay in for Joe, Mika and Willie. Everybody's off except me. I'm so sorry. With us we have the host of Pablo Torre finds Out on Meadowlark Media MSNBC contribut Pablo Torre, managing editor at the Bulwark, Sam Stein we are all crying, Sam. I can't remember why, but you said we were going to cry when you left the set of way too early this morning. Yes, columnist and associate editor for The Washington Post, David Ignatius and politics bureau chief and senior political columnist at Politico, Jonathan Martin is also with us. J. Mart, thank you very much. So let's quickly get straight to the news and then we'll bring on all the table. Crowds of current and former CDC staffers and their supporters lined the streets of Atlanta yesterday to reckon the officials who resigned in protest after the ousting of CDC Director Susan Menarez. Now we're learning more details about what led to that firing and to the exodus that followed. As NBC News reports, an escalating conflict over an influential vaccine committee was one of the final straws. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Had reconstituted the committee, you'll remember, by firing its members and appointing new members, including vaccine skeptics. Well, Monarz reportedly refused to rubber stamp the panel's new vaccine recommendations, and she objected to firing members of her team. Hours later, she was pushed out. Other top officials who resigned also cited concerns with the committee, including a guidance document that ignored all feedback from Korea CDC staff. Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana, who chairs the Senate Health Committee, Health Committee is now urging the postponement of the vaccine approval meeting set for next month, saying in part, quote, if the meeting proceeds, any recommendations made should be rejected as lacking legitimacy given the seriousness of the allegations and the current turmoil in CDC leadership. Jamar, let's start this morning with you. I mean, I feel like all of the stories we have are tied together. This is all this big remaking of America. Ezra Klein at the moment is calling it an optical illusion. We see all these big things happening, but we, we don't quite know what they mean or where it's going to end. Talk first about the cdc. How serious is this?

[Jonathan Martin]

Well, it's profound. You saw the outpouring of support in the streets of Atlanta. You don't typically see government employees throwing bouquets to their bosses outside of federal agencies, let's put it that way.

[Katty Kay]

Employees, full stop throwing bouquets.

[Jonathan Martin]

Yeah, exactly. Federal or private sector doesn't matter. So it's profoundly serious in the public health sense. Kids going back to school all across the country last week, this week, next week. And obviously it's an issue of huge concern. The politics of it are extremely delicate because the now former head of the CDC thought she had an ally in Senator Bill Cassidy and in her final hours there, reached out to Bill Cassidy. Cassidy, I know, tried to help her and it was too late. And effectively the White House sided with Robert F. Kennedy. Cassidy's in a difficult spot. He's facing a difficult primary next year in Louisiana. He already voted to impeach Donald Trump in 2021. So politically, he's in a precarious spot. Needs Trump's support. But he's a doctor. He understands the importance of vaccinations, especially with kids.

[Katty Kay]

And by the way, he was hesitant.

[Jonathan Martin]

About supporting Kennedy precisely because of this issue of vaccinations. And he thought he extracted some level of commitment from Kennedy. It turns out Kennedy is a vaccine skeptic for a reason. And of course he was gonna try to overhaul this committee to load it up with vaccine skeptics. And here we are a mere seven months later.

[Katty Kay]

Sam, this is the President, isn't it? In the end, yeah. Deciding that, okay, he himself may want to tout his successes. As we've been hearing, he's been saying to donors, I wanna talk about the things I did during COVID and that amazing COVID vaccine rollout. But realizing that his MAGA base is full of people who are vaccine skeptics and he's kind of caught between a rock and roll.

[Sam Stein]

I don't know how much Trump cares about the details so much as the accolades. And he has always been a little bit of anti vax, curious, even prior to his political runs. But he also loves the fact that Operation Warp Speed was a major success. I've been a little bit surprised, I guess maybe I shouldn't have been about how much leash he's given Kennedy. Cause Kennedy has driven. Yeah, me too, actually.

[Katty Kay]

Why?

[Sam Stein]

I think he likes the fact that Kennedy completed the ideological horseshoe from him and brought in all these voters and helped him win. And frankly, I think he values that more than anything else. But Kennedy has also taken Kennedy too. Yeah, he's a Kennedy.

[Jonathan Martin]

Right. Like he loves.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Martin]

The idea of 20th century prestige and Donald Trump, I mean, that's just easy, right?

[Sam Stein]

Exactly. Yeah. And so I think, look, he diverted my train of thought.

[Katty Kay]

You can do it, son.

[Sam Stein]

I cannot figure it out. But Kennedy's impact on our public health in America has been more than just profound, it's been damaging. And the chief achievement of Operation Warp Speed was to use MRNA technology to get a life saving vaccine to market and online in way faster amount of time than any prior vaccine had come online. Kennedy has now taken concrete steps to end the use of MRNA technology that could have profound impacts, not just for future vaccinations, but for cancer treatments. We're talking about people who will die because of this. We're already seeing this morning the implications of what he's doing to the advisory roll committee at CDC around vaccines. There's an article in the New York Times about CVS pharmacies in 16 states not currently offering the COVID vaccine. Now, I know people don't think of COVID as a big deal anymore, but it is a deal. And people want. There is a portion, a big portion of the public that wants that vaccine that in 16 states cannot get it at CVS right now. That has a huge impact on people. That has a huge impact on health. And this is just the beginning. That advisory committee still has, has not met. Bill Cassidy says he doesn't want them to meet now. This is chaos at the highest levels of our health agencies. I don't think the public is going to like this if they can't get access to vaccines that they want and that they need.

[Katty Kay]

David, if we're talking about, and we look at all the kind of, all the stories we're going to be covering this morning, there is a very profound remaking of this country going on. And the remaking of the country's health and the remaking of America's relationship with science and data seems to be at the center of this. When I put my kind of look at America from the outside hat on. This is a country that is not recognizable when it comes to its relationship with science and scientific progress. This is America that has touted its scientific progress ever since the Second World War, that's been at the forefront of scientific progress. This is the country people from around the world want to come to to study science, to study medicine, because America is in the forefront.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah, Caddy. I think of all the things Trump has done, the actions against public health agencies, against university research, against the things that we think of as being outside of politics could prove to be the most damaging, the hardest to repair. These are generational projects. Laboratories at great universities get broken apart. People leave, go to other countries. Other countries are actively recruiting scientists from the United States. It's going to be very hard to get them back. So, you know, reading this morning in the New York Times about the scenes of despair at the cdc, these are professionals who really came into the public health business. Not all that well paying, if you're a doctor, medical professional. They came in to try to save lives with a sense of responsibility. The CDC was one of those agencies that was acting on behalf of the public. If there was a crisis, a sudden outbreak of a virus, infectious disease, they were the people who were on the front lines. That's how they saw themselves. Now they're getting shot at. People who their health problems are to blame for Covid vaccines. One man began literally shooting at the CDC headquarters. Their leadership trying to stand up to what I see as political directives are being fired or are resigning in protest. And this great institution is being shredded. And it's really going to hurt all of us. That point was made so well by a former CDC chief, Tom Franklin Frieden, on National Public Radio last night. This is something that we depend on and we'll depend on more and more as new viruses, new diseases begin to hit us. What are they? Where are they? How do we stop them?

[Jonathan Martin]

You raise an important point, too, because we haven't had a crisis yet. There hasn't been an outbreak of a new strain of COVID There hasn't been, thank God, any kind of a terrorist attack on American soil. What's going to happen when all these agencies that are precisely designed to deal with such tragedies, traumas, crises, have to respond, look at that kind of thing. And that's really troubling.

[Katty Kay]

Yeah. This is in the front line of protecting us all. And what happens when some of the top researchers in the country are no longer working here protecting America, but they're working. And I know, I've spoken to heads of universities in the UK they are quite happy to offer more jobs. Absolutely.

[David Ignatius]

Poaching America, including stimulus acting, whereas the.

[Katty Kay]

Chinese are also happy to say, come to Hong Kong. We will. We'll take you quite happily. Okay. Another area that we should be looking at this morning. A hearing is now set for 10am this morning in Washington, D.C. after Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook filed a lawsuit against President Trump, claiming that his attempt to remove her from her position is unlawful. She is asking to remain an active member of the board. In her lawsuit, which also names the Fed's Board of Governors and Chair Jerome Powell as defendants, Cook describes her ouster as unprecedented and illegal. The filing argues that the president does not have the power to unilaterally redefine cause, completely unmoored to case law, history and tradition, and conclude without evidence that he has found it. Trump has accused Cook of mortgage fraud, but she has not been charged with a crime. Meanwhile, federal authorities are planning to surge agents to Chicago next week in an effort to increase arrests of unauthorized immigrants. Federal law enforcement officials tell NBC News the plans involve Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Border Patrol and other federal agencies. In a statement, DHS did not deny the upcoming operations in the city, saying, quote, president Trump has been clear, we are going to make our streets and cities safe again. Defense officials also say the White House is looking to use a Navy base north of Chicago as a launchpad for federal law enforcement. The base would provide facilities, infrastructure and other logistical needs if the request is granted. This comes as President Trump continues threats of a possible federal troop deployment to Chicago as well. He posted in part, quote, the people are desperate for me to stop the crime. Stay tuned. According to Politico, Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson told reporters yesterday the White House has not shared any details. So city officials are relying on a response plan built during last year's Democratic National Convention, which they say included large but peaceful protests and fewer rests. Okay, so we read those stories together, Pablo, because again, it is part of this process of the country that is changing before our eyes, Europe and New York. I'm going to quickly pull you in on a kind of market response to this because one of the surprising things, particularly about the Lisa Cook hearing, is we had anticipated that there would be more market response than there has been. Yes, the dollar's fallen a bit, but it hasn't tanked and the markets haven't tanked in the way that some people thought they might be. What's going on with the markets and the Fed?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, look, we have been waiting, frankly, for the larger Trump economic strategy to get over the lag period and actually impact, you know, Main Street America, so to speak. And so the through line in these conversations in terms of what's happening with Democrats, it brings us back to this larger examination of do we want the Fed, do we want the cdc, do we want these organizations, the transportation regulators, to be in place such that their expert advice, which is warning us in a long term way and warning us, hey, it's not merely enough to be reactive, but proactive. Do we still consider their counsel on this to be worthy of inclusion in the room? And so the question of how can he get away with this, it does depend on this lag caddy. And we can talk about the ways in which what's happening in Chicago tends to be the comfort zone for Donald Trump in terms of the playbook he wants to run. But all of this feels familiar. All this feels of a piece. All of it feels like we're in reruns. Frankly, I don't know if you guys in D.C. feel that way. Certainly in New York, it just kind of feels like, okay, so we're trying to take the advice of the experts or the guy who's saying, isn't everything fine now? Doesn't it feel okay right now in the present tense enough for you? And that kind of makes me feel Like I'm taking crazy pills again. But that's just me in New York by myself on a Friday before Labor Day weekend.

[Katty Kay]

I'm so sorry you're all alone. It does something to me. Solitary up on the studio. I know. We won't forget you, Pablo. We know you're there.

[Pablo Torre]

Trust the verify. Yeah.

[Katty Kay]

Okay, Jonathan. It looks like I read the statute of the Federal Reserve, which was founded in 1913. I didn't realize that. And it says that governors shall hold office for a term of 14 years unless sooner removed for cause by the president. The two key words that we're all going to be talking about are these words for cause. Right. I've spoken to a couple of constitutional lawyers about this. There are people who actually make it their speciality to discover when a president can remove somebody from office. It seems that we, they don't know. They don't know whether the president is allowed to do this. And we are again, in uncharted waters because Donald Trump has been out of office for four years looking at every possible way he can expand presidential power, and this seems to be one of them. But we don't know whether he can do this legally or not because we don't know whether something that she did, may have done before she took the post qualifies as for cause while she's in the post.

[Jonathan Martin]

And also because the feds are unique, public, private, quasi agency, it's not, you know, the Department of Labor, Health and Human Services, it's kind of a different animal. So I think there, statutorily, it's difficult. Look, I think it's going to the courts. I think this is going to be litigated by the Supreme Court. Ultimately, what's going to be fascinating is to see if Cook is still welcomed by her federal members of the Federal Reserve Board. In the meantime, I think we're going into a fall in which whether it's on the Federal Reserve at the Senate Banking Committee, whether it is the CDC at the Health Committee, or whether it is the war in Ukraine with the Armed Services and Foreign Relations Committee, this is going to be a fall in which a lot of congressional Republicans, especially in the Senate, especially those who are not running again, Thom Tillis, looking at you, I think are going to be watched to see if they are going to show any hint of, of independence or at least discomfort with Trump's power grab on all of these fronts. Spoiler. Probably not. But it's going to be fascinating to watch because this is as much a test or even a troll you can say of them as it is. Anything else on all these fronts, the Federal Reserve, the cdc, the war in Ukraine and his posture toward Vladimir Putin. I think it is going to be putting a lot of these members on the spot when they come back here next week.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

[Katty Kay]

On the Federal Reserve, quickly. And then I want to get to Ukraine. There are some checks here. Because even if Lisa Cook is taken out of her office, even if she is successfully fired, she has to be replaced. It has to go through Senate confirmation. In his first term, the president tried to put two people forward for Senate confirmation who didn't get through. Republican senators said no. Do you think there is a chance this time around that we have to J Mart's point, we could have a Senate that stands up and says, actually, you know, this is our chance to do something. You're smiling, you're smiling, you're smiling so nicely.

[Jonathan Martin]

Probably not. Right? That's always the default. Right.

[Sam Stein]

Well, these are all interconnected. You would have thought, you know, 10 months ago there's no way a Republican run Senate would confirm RFK Jr. To HHS. I mean, after all, Bill Cassidy's a doctor who heads the HELP Committee and he believes in vaccines. Why in his wide and as wild as dreams would he confront. And yet here we are. I'm struck by just, and Jonathan's absolutely right, but just how much everything feels so unsettled on so many different fronts.

[Katty Kay]

Just in the last. I feel in the last week or two, it's accelerated.

[Sam Stein]

I mean, our cities are unsettled, our health agencies are unsettled, our foreign policies are unsettled. And now we go into a fall in which we may end up in a government shutdown because of all this. And I understand Trump likes to thrive and thrives, honestly, in these moments of chaos and that he himself is a chaos agent. But there is something risky about it, I would say, to having so much, so many fires that seem to be erupting at the same time and the Federal Reserve being unsettled and academia being unsettled. To me, it's exhausting. And maybe that's what he wants, but it also for voters has to be exhausting, too. And, you know, I don't know if there's risks and if Republicans who have to consider another Fed nominee or what to do with the CDC eventually say, enough, well, we've had too much. Probably not. But that does seem to be the prevailing theme of this presidency is just so many different fires all over the place.

[Jonathan Martin]

Just real fast, though the economy's not unsettled it's fairly, it's kind of placid, actually, which is remarkable given the interventions they're in.

[Katty Kay]

And a lot of Trump supporters like this activity. What seems unsettled and they sign up for this. This actually looks like action and strength and progress. Okay, let's move to Ukraine. At least 23 people were killed by Russian strikes in the Ukrainian capital of Kyiv yesterday. A Russian attack on an apartment building killed four children. Hours later, a blast in the center of Kyiv killed one other person and severely damaged the city's British council and EU offices. Ukraine's air force said yesterday that Russia launched nearly 630 total missiles and drones throughout the country overnight into Thursday. Nearly 40 additional people were also injured by the strikes. David, you write about the war in Ukraine in your latest piece titled A Way around the Russia, Ukraine Deadlock. It reads in part, quote, president Donald Trump has tried to find an exit, but his attempts to mediate the conflict by ingratiating himself with Russian President Vladimir Putin have so far been a flop. He's now considering walking away from negotiations, which would be a severe personal failure for him and a disaster for Ukraine and Europe. Meanwhile, the bloodbath continues. If Russia chooses unwisely to fight on, then Europe and the United States should begin providing security guarantees for Ukraine now, not later. This isn't chess. When a game is heading toward defeat, step away from the board. You know, David, it's not that long ago, I guess you and I were on this set after the Europeans came and it looked like there was some movement, at least some show of European Union. And the president seemed receptive to some of the things the Europeans were suggesting. I think we were all, you know, aware of the fact that it may not go anywhere, but it seems to have gone not just nowhere, but it seems to have got worse since then quite quickly.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah, I think the US and the Europeans still are aligned. And you're seeing President Vladimir Putin respond violently, indignantly to that resistance, that sense of solidarity, saying, no, you don't. And here come the Numbers are incredible. 598 drones, 31 missiles. Just an overwhelming attack on Kiev. I don't think that's going to crack European resolve. The question is whether it's going to crack Donald Trump's resolve. He has spoken about the need for Ukraine to have more offensive capability. He has seen when Ukraine gets pounded like this by Putin, to be in deep sympathy with the Ukrainians and to be angry at Putin. But this is really the moment in which Trump has to, has to identify whether he's serious enough about making peace to respond to Putin's attempts, really to wreck it with significant American force. What I proposed in the, in the column that you just read is that rather than talking about security guarantees for the future after there's a ceasefire, it's time to institute them now. Now is the time that Ukrainians need security protection, security guarantees, guarantees that civilians in Kyiv, not at the front lines, will be safe in this period where they'll battle towards some eventual ceasefire and end of the war. And I found in writing that piece, and since that there is a growing sense that the United States and its allies are going to have to step up. One important fact, especially for Europeans, is that this week the Financial Times reported that the US has decided to provide additional intelligence and other support to the Europeans as they stand behind Ukraine going forward. So that reassures the Europeans, makes them more confident they can do this. But we're talking about a series of really disastrous moments around the world. In Ukraine, one is ahead as we head toward the fall and winter. This Russian escalation has got to be met in some way. Either Trump says, that's it, I'm walking away, or he says, we're going to up the American commitment.

[Katty Kay]

I have heard jmar from Republican senators who are close to Donald Trump that there is appetite up on the Hill for a much tougher sanctions package against Russia. I don't know if they, if it's going to go anywhere if the president would block it. But this is an area where you do have still a chunk of Republicans who don't like what they're saying.

[Jonathan Martin]

Well, in the Senate, it's more than a chunk. It's the vast majority of Republican senators who are still Reaganites in foreign policy. I wrote this a couple weeks ago. Lindsey Graham has a bill with 84 co sponsors now to impose harsh secondary sanctions on Russia. I think Trump can easily wield that as a threat against Putin. If you won't sit down with Zelensky, then I'm going to sign this bill. The Senate is pushing me on it. I'm going to sign it even if Trump doesn't want to use that bill as a threat. Caddy boy, if there was ever an opportunity for this Congress to project some Article 1 power, some independence on foreign policy, it is this moment, this bill, to get Putin back to the table. And look, John Thune can simply say to Donald trump, I got 84 members up here who want me to pass this bill. They've been banging on me for three months. Lindsey Graham wanted to do it for his birthday in July. And he's been waiting and waiting and waiting. Putin is slow walking you. He's not even sitting down with Zelensky, which was the concession that you thought you had coming out of Alaska. I got to pass the bill and I'm skeptical that Thune would do that, but I think he would have enormous cover in his own caucus if he wanted to.

[Katty Kay]

Yeah, I think you would, too. And that's certainly what we're hearing from the kind of Trump allied senators. Senior political columnist for Politico. J Mart, thank you very much.

[Jonathan Martin]

Thanks.

[Katty Kay]

Coming in on this last day of August on set, football is here for sure. Yeah, I'm excited about that. I think.

[Jonathan Martin]

Not soccer, football.

[Katty Kay]

Yeah, I know.

[David Ignatius]

Okay.

[Katty Kay]

Still ahead on MORNING joe, we'll bring you the latest on the deadly mass shooting in Minneapolis. Plus an update on the community communication issues at Newark Airport as we move into a busy holiday travel weekend. And a reminder that Morning Joe Podcast is available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcast. You're watching Morning Joe. We will be right back.

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[Jonathan Martin]

MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each week, Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week, she sits down with writer producer Phil Rosenthal.

[Pablo Torre]

I'm only using food and my stupid.

[Sam Stein]

Sense of humor to get you that.

[Pablo Torre]

Real message, which is, I think the.

[Jonathan Martin]

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[Pablo Torre]

Could experience a little bit of other people's experiences.

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The best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Katty Kay]

The two children killed in the Minneapolis church school shooting on Wednesday have now been identified. Minnesota officials say 10 year old Harper Moisky and 8 year old Fletcher Merkel were killed when a shooter opened fire through a stained glass window at Annunciation Catholic Church. It happened during an annual mass to mark the start of the school year. 18 people were wounded. Video captured by a parent of one of the students shows children running from the scene. The family for Harper Moiski released a statement expressing their grief and calling for action in their daughter's memory. Meanwhile, Fletcher Merkel's father is asking the public to remember his son for the person he was yesterday.

[Pablo Torre]

A coward decided to take our 8 year old son Fletcher away from us. Because of their actions, we will never be allowed to hold him, talk to him, play with him and watch him grow into the wonderful young man he was on the path to becoming. Fletcher loved his family, friends, fishing, cooking and any sport that he was allowed to play. Please remember Fletcher for the person he was and not the act that ended his life. Give your kids an extra hug and kiss today. We love you, Fletcher. You'll always be with us.

[Katty Kay]

Oh, that is brutal, Sam. For every parent, all of us parents sitting around this table, that's the father of Fletcher Merkel. The thing you never want to have.

[Sam Stein]

To think about saying, I've thought a ton about this in like the past 24 hours as you probably both. I've been on this show several times to respond to mass shooting events in the moment. And what troubles me a lot is how routine it has now become when we get into this habit of covering it. We have all seen press conferences like that and then we move on. And I can't believe how horribly calloused I've become by this. It's awful. And watching that father have to deal with this. And you know, I have kids and they're 8 and about the age 8 and 5, about the age of these kids. The fact that this is part of our American social fabric, that I worry about sending my kid to school now is something that is totally unacceptable to me. And yet at the same time, paradoxically, I've learned to accept it because this is just how we live. And I know we're about to get into the responses to this. The other thing that really bothers me is how instinctively political we've become in the aftermath of this, looking for little chestnuts of, you know, the shooter's ideology so that we can score a political point against, you know, whoever when in reality, I think we all know that there's a variety of factors that go into this, but one of them forever has been easy access to firearms. And until we just are honest about this, we're going to see more of these scenes, these devastating scenes of this father, and we're going to have to just come to grips with the fact that this cannot be our day to day life. It just can't.

[Katty Kay]

I was listening to one of the little girls, David, yesterday. These kids are so, these families are so articulated after this horrible grief. And one of these little girls was saying, you know, we had practiced this before, but we'd practiced it in the school room, not in the church. And so we had to adapt that. And to Sam's point, of course, your every little nugget, every little story that gets interpreted well, why are children. My husband said to me, you know, this is crazy. Kids are having to practice what to do for a shooter in schools. I never grew up.

[David Ignatius]

This has become part of American education. Listening to that father and the anguish in his voice, trying to, you know, be brave and speak about his son, you can't help but think, what if that was me? That was my child, my grandchild. I know, as I think all of us do, this is just a daily part of how you go to school. If you're a teacher, it's part of how you prepare your classroom. You think about these nightmarish events. Like Sam, I find myself wondering, what's the break point? What's the point at which Americans rebel? We're in this situation where our children, our grandchildren get more and more at risk. These events are every week or so. When do we rebel from the political limits that say, well, you can't really do anything about gun control? Well, you know, the Democrats just aren't going to take on assault weapons. When do people demand that life in America be different? I said on the show earlier this week, one of the few people who could actually get an assault weapons ban passed is President Donald Trump. And I hope he thinks about it. You know, he wants to make a difference for the country. He wants to be, to be loved and celebrated. Well, if there's one thing he could do is speak to the country in this crisis and say, I'm going to change things. I'm going to make it more difficult to do these terrible shootings because I have a following that can allow me to get this.

[Katty Kay]

And we have seen him toy with the idea, at least in the past. Let's see.

[David Ignatius]

Yes, it ought to be a moment for him to think about.

[Katty Kay]

So the Trump administration is suggesting that the Minneapolis shooting is connected to a larger mental health crisis. President J.D. vance made that comment at an event in Wisconsin yesterday. He then doubled down on it during an interview with Fox News.

[Jonathan Martin]

We really do have, I think, a mental health crisis in the United States of America. We take way more psychiatric medication than any other nation on earth. And I think it's time for us to start asking some very hard questions about the root causes of this violence. And I'm going to be part of that, and the first lady and the president are going to be part of that. But that's going to be an American conversation that we're going to have together. I mean, look, clearly this person was a mentally deranged human being. Clearly it was a transgender individual. We're going to learn a lot more. And I think the FBI and local authorities got to try to get to the bottom of this. But you don't go and shoot up innocent children unless you are a clearly screwed up person.

[Katty Kay]

I think all of us would agree with that, that you don't go and shoot up innocent children unless you have severe mental problems. Right, Pablo? I think that goes without saying. Raising the trans issue, raising the antidepress. That's a new thought from the vice president in response to one of these mass shootings. What do you make of what he said?

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, look, mental health in America on this planet, obviously a crisis. We should be investing and exploring ways to actually address that. I just fail to see how that is a more useful direction for the American attention than actual practical solutions to gun control. You may think that gun control is a very pie in the sky concept that is politically not viable for all of the obvious reasons having to do with special interests in America and what Donald Trump thinks his base is like. I just wonder if anybody plausibly believes that solving mental health is more plausible than making a difference when it comes to, for instance, plca. Right. Which is the Protection of Lawful Commerce and Arms act, which is a question that I return to when I think about why isn't there litigation? Why aren't there civil suits in the way that ensue following massive tragedies involving cars. Right. Car manufacturers in America are subject to civil lawsuits when their product is allegedly misused in ways they were not intended. Guns in America, firearms, because of plca, they are those manufacturers immune. They have federal immunity from civil lawsuits in that way. That is a practical question, a practical direction for us to maybe wonder about aloud that is not about curtailing the second Amendment, but using something that America loves, which is a popular response, hopefully inspiring lawsuits to curb the manufacturers, the makers, not the freedom holders, not the gun owners, but the manufacturers. I just wonder at some point if we'll ever get to having that conversation. Also.

[Katty Kay]

It doesn't feel like it in this political climate. I think David is right. The population is there. Poll after poll shows us that there is a desire in America to have some kind of gun reform that would make schools safer. But the infrastructure of American government doesn't seem to meet the moment, doesn't seem matched to doing what the American public wants it to do. Coming up, Dr. Vin Gupta will join us to explain the impact of the changes instituted by Health Secretary RFK Jr. Morning, Jo. We'll be right back.

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[Katty Kay]

I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result deadline.

[Jonathan Martin]

White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Katty Kay]

Beautiful sunrise in New York City this morning. 6:41 on this Friday morning for Labor Day. Happy Labor Day everybody. Chaos is consuming the CDC after the ousting of the agency's director over vaccine policy and the exodus of other officials who resigned in protest. Those officials speaking out yesterday, promising to continue the fight from the outside.

[Sam Stein]

What makes CDC great are the people that make CDC up the scientists, everyone that makes this a failure. And it's a family that defends our country and the health of our children.

[Jonathan Martin]

And the health of adults.

[Sam Stein]

You are the people that protect America, and America needs to see that. You are the people that protect America. And we are going to be your loudest advocates.

[Katty Kay]

So let's bring in NBC medical contributor Dr. Vin Gupta. Dr. Gupta, thank you so much for joining us. Give us a sense for viewers who are waking up to this story this morning of why they should care about what's happening at a government agency like the cdc.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

Katy, good morning. It's a question that's top line for everybody is why did this matter and how is this going to impact me? There's a few things. First of all, these acronyms, cdc, acip, fda, often there is a distance that you're pointing out between some sort of advisory committee on immunization and what does it mean for what I can get at my pharmacy when I need it. But that's exactly what's happening right now is these little nits and these conversations that Kennedy is having when it comes to, say, delaying an advisory committee for vaccine experts to meet. He's delayed this and delayed this, and now there's no CDC leadership really. In effect, what's happening is by doing that, by neutering that mechanism, it's impacting the ability of any American family, family to get vaccinated against things that they would typically be able to make a decision on to get vaccinated at their local pharmacy down the street because their pharmacists caddy. And this is the piece about how this impacts people across the country. Pharmacists can no longer do their job. And pharmacists have administered 90% since the peak of the pandemic of COVID vaccines, since the peak of the pandemic, 90% of them. And so you can play this forward. This is not just the COVID vaccine. This is what happens down the road with other vaccines. So what they're might seem esoteric, it might seem filled with acronyms, but it's impacting what the pharmacists on the street can and cannot do.

[Sam Stein]

Then, Samstein, good to see you again. We were talking a bit about sort of operationally how you can get vaccines in this climate and the fact that pharmacies like CVS now in at least 16 states may restrict Covid vaccines because of this. I want to broaden that a little bit because a lot of people turn to these institutions and their leaders to just have a sort of general understanding and Confidence in the medicine. And in September, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Is going to unveil a study that he's engineered about whether vaccines cause autism. And the expectation, frankly, because he's been very open about it, is that he's going to conclude, against all scientific evidence that, yeah, vaccines cause autism and it's not true. But talk a little bit about the impact that that could have on just sort of the layperson and how they think about vaccines and how they might now suddenly have skepticism about taking vaccines and the compounding effects that that skepticism may cause for our public health.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

You know, I think, Sam, the challenge here is gold standard science, randomized controlled trial in the world of medicine, published in a leading medical journal, New England Journal of Medicine, for example. No, long. Because what matters is a megaphone and the ability to be really good at marketing, which he is amazing at. He is incredible. I mean, take what Maha. Maha is a marketing effort. There's no substance behind it, as we've now seen over the last six months. But it's, you know, rolls off the tongue and it's become the acronym of choice defining this, you know, his tenure in this administration. But, but that's what matters more then to your point. Years and years, decades of research showing that there's no correlation between administering a vaccine, progressively increasing childhood vaccine regimen, and the incidence of autism, which is also increasing for unrelated reasons. Doesn't matter. What matters here is marketing skills at marketing and putting out a message, which he's really good at.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah. Dr. Gupta, I think we could sort of outline all the many ways in which RFK Jr has the appearance, the behavior, behavior of, I believe this is a scientific term, a quack. But I want to get to the question of like, okay, so who are they trying to install atop the cdc? Because it's Jim o'. Neill. And I'm just reading our friendly neighborhood research packet here. A close ally of investor Peter Thiel, Silicon Valley investor, entrepreneur, has worked on issues such as longevity. What is the sort of ideology that is being favored here? If you were describing who Jim o' Neill is from that perspective, you know.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

I mean, Jim o' Neill has been a technocrat in the George W. Bush administration, hasn't done anything super controversial prior to the pandemic.

[Katty Kay]

Pablo.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

But I would say, just to give your viewers a sense, this is an individual early on in the pandemic who endorsed very strongly ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, really all the talking points of the president back in the day. He's, he's put out direct endorsements of those, you know, obviously just misinformed views. So this is somebody that in many ways traffics and will rubber stamp is the fear. All the policies that Dr. Monorez and the leadership that just resigned said, no, thank you. And so that's the concern here, is that his public statements here are very much in line with Kennedy's thinking and he will be a rubber stamp.

[Katty Kay]

NBC News medical contributor Dr. Vin Gupta. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Thank you. Still ahead, the Pentagon is going to honor a general who fought against the American government. We'll tell you who it is and how next on MORNING joe. For a look at some of the other stories making headlines. The three former Memphis police officers who were convicted of federal charges related to the death of Tyre Nichols will now face a new trial. A US District judge issued that order yesterday, citing concerns about bias in the previous case, as the judge who presided over the trial reportedly suggested one of the defendants was a gang member. Last fall, three officers were found guilty of witness tampering but were acquitted on charges that they had violated Nichols civil rights, causing his death. Nichols died in 2020, just three days after he was pulled over by police. Video showed officers violently kicking and punching him during that traffic stop. The Federal Aviation Administration issued a ground stop at Newark Airport yesterday. Oh, dear. Because of equipment issues, incoming flights were halted until about 1pm The FAA says air traffic controllers briefly lost their radio frequencies. It's not known why. Now the agency is further reducing Newark's flight capacity, cutting incoming flights to 28 per hour until at least today. This airport is cursed.

[Sam Stein]

This airport is cursed. I will do anything in my, anything to avoid Newark at this point. I will go anywhere.

[Katty Kay]

Yeah. Walk, drive, take a boat. Do not fly out of Newark. Sorry. And the Pentagon will bring back a portrait of General Robert E. Lee to the West Point library. The painting features the slave guiding the Confederate general's horse. It was removed three years ago after Congress passed a law to strip the names of Confederate leaders from military bases. David Ignatius, we have a lot going on.

[David Ignatius]

Well, the cult of Robert E. Lee has haunted West Point ever since the Civil War. You know, you keep thinking that we're going to get over it. He fought with the Confederacy.

[Jonathan Martin]

He lost.

[David Ignatius]

But, but there's still this image of him as the decent general, the person who was so admired by his fellow cadets. You know, the renaming of bases, the removal and replacement of statues. You know, there are moments when it just seems exhausting, like everything else in America. You know, let's just settle on a roster and have a regular rotation or just send them all to Newark Airport.

[Sam Stein]

That's also I love that it's Donald Trump, proud son of the Seth Cosmopolitan New York are extraordinary.

[Katty Kay]

Who also, by the way, doesn't like losers.

[Sam Stein]

I know. Well, this just ain't to my credit.

[David Ignatius]

That would be. That's the Robert E. Lee, Mr. President was a loser. Yeah, I know you don't want to.

[Sam Stein]

Be surprised, but this is classic Trump. He just loves having little wedge issues to, you know, push people's buttons and, you know, we play along, I guess. But you know, I don't think he cares that much about Robert E. Lee.

[David Ignatius]

We were talking during the break about the target of the day in terms of the revenge campaign. Today's target is George Soros and his son. Out of the blue, you have the president posting on social media. There ought to be a RICO prosecution of George Soros in a famous international.

[Katty Kay]

Let's see what happens with that one.

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