Joe Scarborough (3:03)

And you saw Jon Stewart last night using satire to go after everything that's happened. It's what, it's what I said before. When Paramount caved to Donald Trump and when they took Stephen Colbert, announced that they're taking Stephen Colbert off the air. What happened immediately after that? South park came out more brutal, a tougher satire than the White House's ever gotten. And what you have in that situation is now the top streaming show on Paramount. And this is always a whack a mole situation here. They're going after Jimmy Kimmel right now. There will be protests that come up elsewhere, but it's not just going to be coming from comedians. It's also the Wall Street Journal. We're going to be talking about this. The Wall Street Journal editorial page today is filled with examples of MAGA hypocrisy. For years they talked about cancel Culture. They've now in the name of Charlie Kirk, a guy who said all speech needs to be free, they've now canceled two of three late night hosts and they're celebrating it. As the Wall Street Journal editorial page says, that's nothing more then cancel culture from the right. Another opinion piece on the Wall Street Journal editorial page talking about now it's the right that's muzzling free speech. And you even have an attorney general, even have an attorney general that was going around saying if somebody won't print flyers for Charlie Kirk, they could get in trouble, they could be in fire. You have, you have people going around vowing they're going to go through workplaces in schools and everywhere in America and they will find anybody who ever said anything that was not fawning about Charlie Kirk and they're going to get them fired.

Eugene Robinson (5:08)

Right?

Joe Scarborough (5:10)

Wait. These are the same people that for a decade were whining about cancel culture. These are the same people that we're talking forever about the importance of free speech. We played Charlie Kirk quotes that would clearly say all of this stuff. He'd be like, you guys, wait, wait, hold on a second. This is exactly the opposite of what he said. And yet they're doing it anyway. And they're doing it and corporate media is just falling all over themselves and collapsing. And they're doing it for financial reasons. And of course the impact of that cannot be lost on anybody anywhere. And so I'm glad that people like Jon Stewart, south park, others who are pushing back hard and we need to do the same thing here.

Eugene Robinson (6:04)

Well, the fallout from ABC's decision to pull Jimmy Kimmel live off the air indefinitely continues. This Morning with a wave of reaction from from Hollywood to Washington, protesters packed the streets outside of Disney and ABC headquarters in both New York and Los Angeles yesterday, carrying signs with slogans like Defend free Speech. Many comedians and celebrities also rallied around Jimmy Kimmel and against what they view as a threat to the First Amendment. Podcaster Mark Moron said, this is what authoritarianism looked like. Actor and director Ben Stiller posted, quote, this isn't right. And former late night host David Letterman had this to say.

Joe Scarborough (6:50)

I feel bad about this because we all see where this is going, correct?

Jon Stewart (6:55)

It's managed media and it's no good.

Joe Scarborough (6:59)

It'S silly, it's ridiculous. And you can't go around firing somebody because you're fearful or trying to suck up to an authoritarian, criminal administration in the Oval Office.

Jon Stewart (7:13)

That's just not how this works.

Eugene Robinson (7:16)

Democratic leaders are also speaking out. Former President Barack Obama posted on social media, quote, after years of complaining about cancel culture, the current administration has taken it to a new and dangerous level by routinely threatening regulatory action against media companies unless they muzzle or fire reporters and commentators it doesn't like. Top House Democrats, meanwhile, are calling for FCC Chairman Brendan Carr resign, arguing he has, quote, engaged in the corrupt abuse of power. And the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee says he will launch an investigation into the Trump administration. ABC and Sinclair amid, quote, ongoing efforts to censor opposition to the president. And as Joe mentioned, the Wall Street Journal editorial board is reacting to Kimmel's suspension in a new piece entitled the fcc, Disney and Jimmy Kimmel. It reads in part, regulatory power in the hands of a willful president can too easily become a weapon against political opponents, including the media. The squeeze on Disney looks to be a case of cancel culture on the right. For a decade or more, the voters who backed Mr. Trump watched and listened as coastal elites of media and entertainment showed their contempt for middle American values. Those coastal grandees shouldn't be surprised now if the public isn't as outraged as they are by the car. FCC's abuse of its power against the opponent, against opponents. We want to be clear that none of this justifies the right's resort to regulatory censorship. As victims of cancel culture for so long, conservatives more than anyone should oppose it. The political cycle of using government to punish opponents is taking the country into dark corners that will result in less freedom and less free speech for all sides. The best immediate remedy is getting the FCC out of the business of regulating media. Meanwhile, President Trump and FCC Chairman Brendan Carr are celebrating ABC's decision and are signaling the crackdown May not stop there.

Jonathan Lemire (9:42)

Are you ask Brendan Carr to weigh.

Joe Scarborough (9:45)

In on other late night hosts that.

Anne Applebaum (9:47)

You have absence of.

Joe Scarborough (9:49)

Well, you know, when a late night host is on network television, there is a licensing. I'll give you an example. I read someplace that the networks were 97% against me. I get 97% negative. And yet I won easily won all seven swing states popular. And if they're 97% against, they give me only bad publicity or press. I mean, they're getting a license. I, I would think maybe their license should be taken away. It will be up to Brendan Karp. He had no talent. He's a whack job, but he had no talent. And more importantly, the talent he had no, because a lot of people have no talent. They get ratings, but he had no ratings. His ratings were worse than Colbert. Think they got rid of Colbert, which was a good thing to do. And look, that's something that should be talked about for licensing too. When you have a network and you have evening shows and all they do is hit Trump, that's all they do. If you go back, I guess they haven't had a conservative on in years or something, somebody said. But when you go back and take a look, all they do is hit Trump. They're licensed. They're not allowed to do that. They're an arm of the Democrats, Democrat Party. Asked earlier about Fallon and Seth Meyers, but is the president's view that they should also be taken off the air shared by the fcc?

Mika Brzezinski (11:22)

Well, yeah, I don't speak for the president, so obviously, you know, he speaks.

Joe Scarborough (11:24)

For himself on that.

Mika Brzezinski (11:26)

Our goal and our obligation here is to make sure that broadcasters are serving the public interest. And if there's local TV stations that don't think that running that programming does it, then they have every right under the law in their contracts to preempt it. And we'll see how this plays out.

Joe Scarborough (11:39)

But I do think that again, we are in the midst of a massive.

Mika Brzezinski (11:43)

Shift in dynamics in the media ecosystem for lots of reasons, again, including the permission structure that President Trump's election has provided. And I would simply say we're not done yet with seeing the consequences of that shift.

Joe Scarborough (11:57)

What does that mean when you say you're not done yet, then? I mean, will you only be pleased when none of these comedians have a show on broadcast television? No, it's not, it's not about any particular show or any particular person.

Mika Brzezinski (12:10)

It's just we're in the midst of a very disruptive moment right now. And I just frankly expected we're going to continue to see changes in the media ecosystem.

Joe Scarborough (12:19)

You know, Mickey, we had talked about how obviously the Wall Street Journal editorial page had come out against this, I've got to say. Also somebody who usually is in support of most of Donald Trump's policies on the Wall Street Journal editorial page, Kimberly Strassel writes a very tough op ed and its headline Back to Censor Culture. And, and, and talks about how it wasn't too long ago she said the right was criticizing the left for canceling people. Now the right is doing the same thing. We've talked about it before. But think about the madness of all of this. Again, you've got now the Magarit being champions of cancel culture. You've got the MAGA right now trying to crush free speech after being supposed free speech absolutist. You have Pam Bondi talking about going after Home Depot if they won't print out flyers, certain political flyers, maybe arrest them, talking about firing. And again, the idea that squads of people are going around and saying, don't worry, Charlie, we're going to find people who used free speech in a way you wouldn't have liked and get them fired from their jobs. Are you kidding me, right? Are you kidding me? This is the very thing that he and the MAGA movement and the free press that we're complaining about for a decade and now they're taking it in a more extreme way than the left ever did. I mean, again, they've canceled two of three late night show hosts in a short period of time and now they're threatening retribution for people who won't print out flyers. They're threatening retribution for people that put out a meaning tweet. I mean, we've made it very clear, we've made it very clear before that, that, that political violence is heinous. That against Charlie Kirk was absolutely just vile and heinous. And, and that's why we saw most sides strongly and roundly condemning that violence. Yeah, but the fact that they're actually doing the opposite of what Charlie Kirk talked about in his campus tours says all you need to know about these people.

Eugene Robinson (14:57)

Well, they're sort of stepping on themselves on the right. I was watching some podcasts on this and they were obviously very right leaning and they, you know, would have been, it would have made more sense in terms of what you think they said their values are to say, I really didn't like what Jimmy Kimmel said, but he should not have been taken off the air because we believe in free speech. But you can also express doubt or disgust in what was said, but to then agree that he should have been pulled off the air totally turns everything they've ever been talking about.

Joe Scarborough (15:34)

Canceled. Yeah, cancelled.

Eugene Robinson (15:36)

It doesn't make sense.

Joe Scarborough (15:39)

They want to cancel late night hosts.

Eugene Robinson (15:41)

Okay.

Joe Scarborough (15:42)

And it's really unbelievable. Let me bring, I want to bring in David Drucker here. David, this is wild. Like, you've been following this for the past decade. And these free speech absolutists. Elon Musk, I'm going to take over Twitter and be a free speech absolutist. The free press, a free speech absolutist. All of these people on the maga, Right? Free speech absolutist and against cancel culture. And it is playing out now in a way that you have an attorney general threatening to arrest people that don't print flyers. You have two out of three late night hosts canceled, completely canceled. And now they're going around and saying they're going to find people in their workplaces and get them fired if they put out an inappropriate tweet.

David Drucker (16:28)

Yeah, we're clearly, Joe, living through an illiberal moment. I mean, you know, to your last point there, we have the Vice President of the United States asking Americans to rat out their neighbors. If you hear anybody saying something wrong or something that is vile or that is rude, rat them out. Make sure they get fired. Let's get rid of them. And I think the issue here is not so. Well, there are several issues here. I think we need to be clear that if a private company or private institution doesn't want to platform somebody, doesn't want to put them on the air, doesn't want to give them a microphone, they don't have to. The First Amendment protects us from the government monitoring and regulating speech. But the problem is that's exactly what's happening here. When you look at what ABC did with Jimmy Kimmel, the issue isn't that maybe abc, you know, looked at the finances, looked at the changing tastes of viewers when it comes to late night television, and decided given all the money they're paying him, they were going to move in a different direction. The problem is that this appears to be a very clear case of government coercion. And when you look at how Brendan Carr and President Trump are talking about this issue, Trump is actually more honest about it. I don't want these people on the air. I think the government has a right to get rid of them. I'm going to do it. And then Carr is weaselly about it in that. He's like, hey, listen, it's not, you know, it's not the fcc. You know, maybe companies just will decide this on their own with the clear message being, this is what we would like you to decide without us wielding the hammer, and we'll reward you if you do it. I think that ultimately what is very, very ironic here is that President Trump campaigned specifically on, from his perspective, restoring free speech. And conservatives and people that flocked to his coalition were very, that was a very attractive message because for people on the right, they feel as though they have not been allowed to say things they believe about controversial issues without fear of reprisal at work in universities, even in government. And here somebody was saying, I'm going to put an end to that and I'm going to even the playing field in terms of everybody's going to be able to speak their mind, not just people on the left. And here the administration is going in a completely different direction that's antithetical to American values, but also just runs headlong into the First Amendment.

Eugene Robinson (19:02)

A quick refresh on how this all played out. Things were set in motion after the FCC chairman suggested the government could revoke ABC affiliate licenses as a punishment for Kimmel's remarks. The biggest owner of ABC affiliated stations, Nexstar, which owns and operates 32 different ABC stations, then announced it would preempt Jimmy Kimmel Live for the foreseeable future, citing Kimmel's comments about the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Around the same time, Sinclair, which owns and operates roughly the same number of stations, also announced it would no longer carry Kimmel's show. And a short time after that, a spokesman for ABC said in a statement that the late night program will be preempted indefinitely. So Jonathan lemere Cross Confluence of Business, Politics and Free Speech.

Frank Holland (19:59)

And we've seen this a few times now. I mean, the Colbert dismissal became because of cbs. Paramount was looking to get a merger done. We're seeing a similar dynamic here. But we also know that some of this project 2025, the idea of trying to crack down on left wing media, those who are perceived as political foes, that predates the Kirk assassination. And this is now being used as a pretext in many ways to act upon it. Let's talk more about the business side of it. Let's bring in the anchor of CNBC's Worldwide Exchange, Frank Holland, as well as editor in chief of Semaphore, Ben Smith. Our thanks to you both for being here. Ben, let's start with you. Just in terms of this dynamic here, we have seen these corporations you were on our air yesterday saying a lot of these media companies, broadcast companies, have a lot of exposure with the government. That makes them in some ways vulnerable. But we are now seeing time and again corporate entities deciding, well, the dollar shareholders, whatever it might be, a financial interest, putting that ahead of free speech.

Ben Smith (21:00)

Yeah, you know, the biggest picture here is that basically these companies which see themselves as like trying to compete with Google are just trying to get as big as they can, as fast as they can. That's, you know, Paramount, Skydance about to swallow or trying to think about swallowing WarnerMedia and you know, in order to get scale, try to be big, try to be as big as they can. Similarly, Tegna, the reason that they are the nexstar, the reason they are so interested in getting, being on Brendan Carr's good side, is that there's a rule that a broadcaster can only reach 39% of Americans. They'd like to get out of that rule. They'd like that rule suspended so they can buy another company called Tegna and reach, you know, something appropriate, all Americans. And you know, and what that means is you have relatively few media companies, relatively few people owning them. And those people are very, very subject to kind of centralized pressure from the White House, from the administration. That's actually the thing that conservatives were very upset about in the tech industry, the rest of the media industries in some ways competing with tech or just trying to get as big and centralized as they can. And that really gives the administration a very clear way to pressure them.

Joe Scarborough (22:12)

Yeah, Frank Collin, talk about that, if you will, that you have Disney now looking at two of its largest affiliate to two companies that carry the most number of affiliates, saying even before they announce that they're going to take Jimmy Kimmel off the air, at least temporarily, that they're dropping the program altogether. What type of business pressure does that put on them? Especially when you have one of these two companies that's trying to, that's going to be needing to get the federal government's approval for a merger. And you have the other one that has branded itself a right wing local news outlet. Well, Joe, good morning. I just want to make it clear we don't really know the impact on the affiliates or even the ABC owned and operated stations as this story develops.

Mika Brzezinski (22:56)

I'm sure a lot of people will.

Joe Scarborough (22:57)

Try to investigate and try to figure that out. What we do know is that as your previous guest just mentioned is that these companies have some pretty major deals on the table. We have Nexstar trying to buy Tegna and again, there's a 39% cap rule that Nexstar is hoping to have some type of exemption to in order to acquire TEGNA. It's a $6.2 billion deal. At the same time, we have Disney hoping to acquire the media assets of the NFL and essentially bring the NFL Network. Now there is a third part of this story right now. It's just anecdotal. The New York Post is reporting that there are some Disney subscribers that are canceling their subscriptions in response to this decision from the co chair of Disney Entertainment, Dana Walden and CEO Bob Iger. If you go on social media, you can see some of those posts. But again, that's only anecdotal. This is certainly a developing story, certainly too soon to tell the full business impact. I think we'll just have to wait and see.

Frank Holland (23:46)

So Ann, we have, you are one of the experts, experts on warning signs if a democracy slips away. And it seems like what we're seeing here, this playbook the Trump administration is putting forth, seems familiar that we've seen in other countries.

Anne Applebaum (24:01)

Yeah. So first of all, I would pick up on something somebody just said, you know, cancel culture, which had took different forms, was usually the organization of online mobs or sometimes workplace mobs to harass people or get them fired. What we're seeing here is something that is actually different. This is actually government repression. This is the use of state institutions to influence media companies in their decisions about content. And this is the same way that censorship now works elsewhere in the world. So we all have in our minds maybe an idea of censorship. You know, there's like a guy in a room and he crosses out lines from the newspaper articles and that's the censor. Actually, nowadays censorship, whether it's in Russia or whether it's in Turkey or whether it's in Hungary, usually takes the form of a government regulatory body or sometimes it's the tax authority coming to a media company and saying if you do X or Y, you're in trouble. And actually Donald Trump speaking about how much he hates all these online, sorry, these late nights shows and they're also mean to him. I mean, I think that's the key. You know, the reason why these shows are being canceled is not because in the case of Jimmy Kimmel, not, it's really not much to do with Charlie Kirk. It's because the president wants his critics off the air. And I think that's a, that's quite different from the phenomenon that we saw in some universities and cultural institutions a few years ago. And actually, and the, you know, the FCC boss talking about permission structure. The President's election gave us the permission structure to make these changes. I mean, that's an indication that they're thinking more of this as a structural change. This isn't about getting rid of somebody who is offensive, Joe.

Joe Scarborough (25:53)

Yeah, you know, it's fascinating the world that we live in right now, Ben. Yes. There are 40, 41, 42, 43% of the people who may be cheering what Donald Trump and Brendan Carr did together. I suspect it probably would be lower than that. We'll find out in the coming weeks. I'm sure people will poll that. But let's talk about the cross pressures on Bob Iger, because we're, of course, only looking at it from one direction. There were some angry MAGA supporters who put pressure on, on abc, as they put pressure on ABC in the past to less effect. You've got Donald Trump, you got Brendan Carr. So Bob Iger and Disney is feeling that pressure. You then have the pressure of 60% of your viewers, 60% of Americans who were horrified that something like this would happen. You know, people, you know, a good number of people, probably majority of Americans say, well, he didn't really love what he said there. He could have said it much better. And, yeah, it's kind of offensive, but we don't censor in America. So talk about the cross pressures that Bob Iger is facing. When you lurch far to the MAGA, right, to check that box off, you leave about 60% of Americans behind. How does he deal with that in this new political landscape?

Ben Smith (27:19)

Well, I mean, I think he's in a difficult position in part because he's still managing, you know, this declining with the still very lucrative television business that is fighting for its life and doing whatever the White House, you know, whatever the White House says to stay alive. I think, you know, the Disney brand, which I think historically is particularly bipartisan, beloved, has managed largely to stay out of politics and which they preserve very carefully, is now absolutely getting dragged into the middle of this. And as your previous guest said, people are canceling Disney's app and protest. I think the other very important stakeholders for them are Hollywood's creative community. And, you know, I think a lot of those folks probably aren't sticking their heads above the parapet right now. But, I mean, you know, Disney is bidding against its competitors for the, you know, hottest actors, directors, writers, things like that. And I'm sure right now are fielding calls from all those people and their agents who are curious about this.

Eugene Robinson (28:14)

All right. Semaphores. Ben Smith, thank you very much for coming in. We're going to have to get Jean's take on all of this after a break and more from Ann Applebaum. Also ahead on MORNING joe, we'll bring you the latest on the House Oversight Committee's investigation into the Jeffrey Epstein case as the prosecutor who negotiated the convicted sex offender so called sweetheart deal is set to testify today. Plus, we're just days away from a potential government shutdown. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries will join us with reaction to the Republican Party's plan to pass a short term funding measure and a reminder that the Morning Joe Podcast is available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching MORNING joe. We'll be right back.

Joe Scarborough (29:10)

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Mika Brzezinski (30:01)

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Joe Scarborough (30:10)

Monday Sidekick the AI agent that knows you and your business thinks ahead and takes action. Ask it anything seriously. Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use. Start a free trial today on Monday.com administration has laid out very clear speech. Now some naysayers may argue that this administration's speech concerns are merely a cynical ploy, a thin gruel of a ruse, a smokescreen to obscure an unprecedented consolidation of power and unitary intimidation principle less and coldly antithetical to any experiment in a constitutional republic governance. Some people would say that. Not me, though. I think it's great. Oh my God, Gene, it's too much. It's too much. You and me, we've been around. We're a bit older. You may have a Different opinion than me. But it just seems to me, and I'm just curious, just seems to me that this is whack a mole for the Trump administration. They get rid of Cold Bear, they get something far worse. I can't even repeat what they get every week on south park. They get something harsher and blunter and more popular. And now you have Jon Stewart doing this when you know, and it's going to be nonstop, it's going to be from other parts of popular culture. This is not going to rest. Nobody wants to see the federal government other than Donald Trump and, and the most intense MAGA minions, but nobody, nobody wants to see the fcc as the Wall Street Journal said, well, let me have them say it so people don't think it's my words talking about we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Mr. Carr told a podcaster who I believe got some money from Russia in words that could have been uttered by a New Jersey mob boss. Yeah, that's going to turn off, that's going to turn off most Americans. So it just seems to me this is the end of the day short sighted because he's just going to get it from elsewhere and it's going to like South Park. It's going to be even more intense.

Jon Stewart (32:32)

Well, Joe, I certainly hope that's true. I hope this is whack a mole and I hope that because this is what would have happened in the past, of course, and you would haveyou know, you would have seen a thousand flowers bloom. Right. Of that sort of rhetoric. What's different this time, to me at least is something that you just mentioned that Ann Applebaum highlighted, which is this is government coercion. This is the head of the fcc, Brendan Carr, saying we can do this the easy way or the hard way. A mobster like threat against ABC's affiliates more directly, but by extension against ABC itself. That is something I don't recall seeing it. And I think that's something beyond cancel culture, that's government or an attempt at government censorship. And it is all because as President Trump said on Air Force One, they're all against me. And he doesn't like being criticized and made fun of every night by the late night comedians. Now he didn't mention one other late night comedian, Greg Gutfeld, who goes on Fox every night and praises him in an almost Kim Jong Un kind of manner. And so, you know, but leaving that aside, we know how thin skinned the president can be using government power and coercion in that way, holding the, you know, Mergers and other business deals, essentially over the heads of these companies extorting money from, you know, $18 million from ABC and $16 million from CBS in previous deals. This is new to me, and it is, it's more than worrying. I think it's, you know, I think we should be alarmed.

Joe Scarborough (34:42)

Oh, yeah, and this, this sounds so much like what you wrote about, I don't know, five, six, seven years ago in Twilight of Democracy. When you're talking about what, what was happening in Poland, you would have, I think, I don't remember, maybe was a trucking company or somebody that was buying up all the newspapers and they're buying it up. So they'd be all pro law and justice party in this case. It seems to me the leverage point comes from these massive multinational corporations that also happen to own media. And so if the President and, and his, his administration has power over their other businesses. Right, that's the leverage point. You're not seeing this being done to the Atlantic. You're not really seeing this being done to the New York Times or suing the New York Times. But New York Times is not owned by a cheese multinational conglomerate. It's just the New York Times. So they're going to be fine. Is it when these massive media companies that Donald Trump and his administration can impact their, their overarching businesses, is that when they're particularly vulnerable to this sort of intimidation?

Anne Applebaum (35:53)

Yeah, no, it's a good article. I mean, it's a good case for antitrust. Any company that is that large has some kind of dealings with the federal government, has some kind of regulatory relationship or trade relationship or something, and any of those companies immediately become vulnerable. And again, that's an American problem. But it's also, you can see it in other places. You can see it in Europe, you can see it in Russia. And I think it's also important to remember, why is this happening? So what's the end game? The end game is to win an election. So the end game is to change the national conversation, to change the media landscape, maybe to change the landscape in other ways. I mean, there's, there's also, you know, there may be pressure on states to turn over their voter rolls. So that's actually happening already. There's the gerrymandering attempts as well. So the game is to make sure that this particular group of coastal elites, as they like to call other people, stays in power. So it's not just about the media and it's not just about control. It's about holding power in the long term. And they know that controlling the conversation is a part of that.

Eugene Robinson (37:01)

Staff writer for the Atlantic and Applebaum, thank you so much. Her book, Democracy, Inc. Is available now on paperback. And you're at the Atlantic Festival, very active there today. We're looking forward to seeing that. And thank you for being on the show this morning.

Anne Applebaum (37:16)

Thank you.

Eugene Robinson (37:17)

Coming up, another look at the stories making headlines this morning, including the new guidance on a childhood vaccine from an RFK Jr. Backed CDC panel explain their decision next on MORNING Joe. Look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. S hand picked advisory panel to the CDC yesterday voted against vaccinating young children with a combination shot that protects against measles, mumps, rubella and chickenpox. The new guidance suggests it should not be recommended for children under the age of four because of a small risk of seizures. Doctors say those seizures can be prompted by fevers associated with viruses or sometimes vaccines. They usually last for a few minutes and are generally harmless. But yesterday's decision is unlikely to have widespread consequences because doctors have known about the risks in young children for years. The Trump administration has asked the Supreme Court to allow the president to immediately fire Federal Reserve Board member Lisa Cook. In a court filing yesterday, the solicitor general argued a lower court's ruling that blocked the firing constituted, quote, improper judicial interference. Trump is trying to use a provision that allows board members to be removed for cause, pointing to mortgage fraud allegations made by Federal Housing Finance Agency Director Bill Pulte. Cook has not been charged with any crime and has denied the allegations. And in just hours, the man behind Jeffrey Epstein's so called sweetheart deal is set to testify before the House Oversight Committee. Former Labor Secretary Alex Acosta will take questions behind closed doors as part of House panel's investigation into the deceased sex offender. Back in 2008, Acosta served as the U.S. attorney in Florida and approved a secret non prosecution agreement that shielded Epstein from any federal charges. As part of that deal, Epstein pleaded guilty to state charges involving just one underage victim. He served 13 months in jail with work release privileges. Let's bring in MSNBC legal correspondent and former litigator Lisa Rubin. What else happened beyond that? Epstein serving 13 months with Alex Acosta's career. And what questions are you hoping to hear answered in the hearing today?

Jonathan Lemire (40:08)

Well, Mika, as we all know, Alex Acosta was Trump's original choice in his first term to be Labor Secretary. He didn't survive for very long because of revived questions about his tenure as the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida. It was in November of 2018 that Julie K. Brown of the Miami Herald first published a three part series about that sweetheart deal and about the questions that victims and survivors of Jeffrey Epstein still had, including the fact that they had been walled off from this non prosecution agreement. But in terms of questions that members of House Oversight might have for Alex Acosta, look, these were events that happened 18 years ago. Alex Acosta gave a transcribed interview to the Department of Justice five plus years ago when they were investigating, investigating him and four other members of his office to see whether they committed professional misconduct or ethical violations in bringing to bear this sweetheart deal. Theoretically, his memory today is going to be worse than it was five years ago. So one of the things I would want to know if I were a member of the House Oversight Committee is what Alex Acosta says today and how it compares to what he said five years ago. And there's no evidence that the members of the House Oversight Committee have the transcript of that interview even in their possession. If that's the case, then today's interview might be as of much utility as Ghislaine Maxwell's interview with Todd Blanche. That's not to compare Alex Acosta to Ghislaine Maxwell. I want to be really clear that the Office of Professional Responsibility at the Department of Justice concluded Alex Acosta did not commit professional misconduct, that he was within his rights, exercising his authority as the US Attorney to come to this agreement. But what they did say is that he exercised terrible judgment. And I want to zoom out if I can for a second. When Alex Acosta became the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Florida, he was 36 years old. He had had a number of really impressive positions in the Department of Justice and in government. But one thing he had never been is a line prosecutor. He had never been involved in criminal prosecutions. He had served, for example, in the Civil Rights Division of Justice. He had completed a clerkship at a federal Appeal Court. He had worked at Kirkland and Ellis for 18 months. But he had never before worked in a U.S. attorney's office and he was ill equipped to be the person overseeing this. I would submit to you that we are living through a time right now where the consequences of having people at US Attorneys offices who are more distinguishable for their loyalty than for their experience in criminal prosecutors offices, we are seeing those consequences come to fruition every day. And that will be instructive, I think, in this interview.

Joe Scarborough (42:46)

Lisa, that's such a, you know, it's such a great point and it's such A great warning for us today when you look at all the inexperienced people that are being placed all over government based not on competence, based not on knowledge, based not on skills, but based solely on loyalty. I will say in this case though, even an inexperienced young attorney had to know that he was doing something wrong. I'm not saying he did know, but it would be very, it would be shocking for Alex Acosta, even a 36 year old prosecutor, to not know that you don't make deals with a sex offender without notifying those young girls who he abused sexually, who he was making this plea deal for. Also that there would be a deal that would get rid of state charges despite the fact he was on the federal side, and would allow Epstein to walk in and out of his business day in and day out. And one other thing that I think we're seeing still actually paying for today, if we want to get to the bottom of this, giving Epstein the room to destroy any video evidence, any audio evidence, any pictures, any evidence, all of his crimes, and that's exactly what he did. So I don't understand how even a young, integration, experienced prosecutor could have made all of these mistakes.

Jonathan Lemire (44:29)

Well, and I would submit to you, Joe, that there's one other fundamental mistake which is seeing these crimes as crimes of prostitution as opposed to trafficking. You know, we heard from a number of the survivors at a press conference on the Hill about a couple of weeks ago. And one of them was a woman named Haley Robson who said her life had been destroyed because in the past she had been destroyed as a co conspirator of Jeffrey Epstein, a person principally responsible for the recruitment of others. And Haley Robson really challenged us to think about her differently, that she was someone who herself had been trafficked, manipulated and controlled by Jeffrey Epstein and induced and coerced to bring to him sort of a never ending supply of other young girls. Alex Acosta bought into a narrative where someone like Haley Robson was seen as a teenage prostitute, a willing participant, and really what was her own victimization as opposed to seeing this for what it was, a sex trafficking ring in which, as Haley's attorney has described it, Jeffrey Epstein was principally his own pimp and John at the same time. And so that framing of these issues, and I hope we've come a long way since 2007, 2008, really led to the construct of that non prosecution agreement that allowed Jeffrey Epstein not only to evade responsibility, responsibility and participate in a work release program and destroy evidence, as you said, but also led to this narrowing of the investigation itself. And a blaming of the victims. One of the reasons Alex Acosta told the Department of Justice that he sought this non prosecution agreement was because he thought that the victims themselves had credibility issues. Why did he think that? Because he was seeing them as prostitutes and not as victims.

Eugene Robinson (46:09)

MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin, thank you very much. And you can check out Lisa's show. Can they do that on MSNBC's YouTube channel? Thanks very much Lisa.

Joe Scarborough (46:19)

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Jonathan Lemire (46:35)

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Joe Scarborough (47:05)

Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Hayes, jen Saki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today to a throw and it's intercepted.

Jon Stewart (47:41)

It's picked off at about the 20 yard line. Carol Bernard with the huge interception.

Joe Scarborough (47:51)

A backbreaking interception thrown by the Dolphins quarterback to a Tungavailoa in the fourth quarter stops a potential game tying drive for Miami with three minutes play last night and all but secures a 3121 victory for the undefeated Buffalo Bills. Bills quarterback Josh Allen threw three touchdown passes in the game, running back James Cook rushed for a score and Buffalo extended its long run of dominance over the AFC east rival Dolphins having now won 14 of their last 15 meetings and seven in a row, including playoffs. With us now, the host of Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Art Media, MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre and senior writer for ESPN sir Seth Wickersham.

Eugene Robinson (48:36)

Wow.

Joe Scarborough (48:36)

We'll be with you in a second, Seth. He is the author of the new book titled American Kings, a biography of quarterback. We're going to get that a mom or a Also going to ask why he picked two younger quarterbacks who I would have shorted in Caleb Williams and Arch Manning. A man who had more commercials in the first quarter of the Ohio State game than he had completions, but we'll get to that in a second, sir. Seth. So what. What, Pablo? What, Pablo, what do the Miami Dolphins do? Let's just take it straight out of the sound of the Music. What do you do with a problem like Tua? Yeah, what do you do? I love the guy. He was Alabama. He was one of our own. He was, you know, I mean, none other than Nick Saban said he was one of his favorite players ever. But I'm just wondering, are we still feeling the effects of those 47 concussions? Will he never be the same again?

Mika Brzezinski (49:35)

Well, the Bills are, of course, a protagonist in that story of trauma. The Bills were a team that one of those concussions happened against. This game, though, to me, if I may return us to a new thing that you have debuted, which I am forced to participate in despite not participating in it, the Morning Joe NFL power rankings. The Bills are locked out of the room.

Joe Scarborough (49:59)

You are locked out of the room until you come into that room dressed like Sinatra. You got to be wearing. You got to be wearing a tuxedo. Three days. You need a sidekick, like, you know, no, no, no. We're going to get you into the Marriott marquee. Maybe next week, but go ahead. Let's go back to the power rankings.

Mika Brzezinski (50:23)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Bills. The Bills are. I mean, look, the story of this game is, oh, yeah, the Bills are a team that's won, I think, 13 straight home games dating back to last year. They are deserving of, I would even argue, more than the third spot in your power rankings. Tua, by contrast. Tua, by contrast. The thing that he should worry about is whether his head coach is going to be around for that much longer. Mike McDaniel, who was also one of my favorite characters in the NFL for reasons that are probably too expansive to get into here, reads books to completion and seems to enjoy them. That is a funny characteristic that I really do enjoy about him. He's smart, strategic, offensive whiz, has been struggling, and that sort of system, that offense is currently on the brink in a really bad way.

Joe Scarborough (51:13)

Yeah. You know, Seth, Harvard boys actually like football coaches that read books to completion. I just like coach coaches who win. And right now, that ain't happening in Miami. What's the problem down there?

Seth Wickersham (51:26)

Well, I think that, like, when you look at, I mean, look, Mike McDaniel is definitely on the ropes. There's no question about that. But I will say this, is that, like, that team last night did not look like a team that had given up on its coach, right? I mean, look, they, the Buffalo Bills might be the best team in the afc. Let's see, the problem with the Bills is like everything is prelude until January, right? I mean, nothing really matters until they face Patrick Mahomes in the playoffs and they see if they can get past him. But when you watch the Dolphins last night, I mean, look, there was a roughing the punter penalty that really changed the game as much as to his interception. And I think that like when you look at that team, they were playing hard for their coach and it would surprise me unless they really go off the rails if they make a change in the season.

Frank Holland (52:10)

All right, so Pablo, with one more look at the power, right, we can put them back up there. This is, as you can tell, we're trying to make this happen. The packers, number one, they obviously look very impressive in their first two weeks. The Eagles, defending champs also, they've kind of ground out a couple of wins so far, including a sort of uninspiring but still nice win in Kansas City. You can't demean that. So talk to us about those top two who right now seem like the class of the nfc, especially with news out of Washington. The Jayden Daniels hampered with a bad name.

Mika Brzezinski (52:43)

Yeah, I mean, we will I guess naturally segue to the question of the quarterback with Seth sitting here. But Jordan Love, right? Every team focuses. They spend millions of dollars to figure out a single entity who can be the turning point for a billion dollar asset. And is Jordan Love the guy? Jordan Love coming after Aaron Rodgers. Jordan Love doing stuff like this. Yeah, it feels like optimism is a rational case to make for why you should feel amazing. As of course one of the top two teams in the Morning Joe Power rankings as decided by various former Secretaries of the treasury and or economic advisors and or allied NATO commanders, but not the sports guy you bring on in the morning. So totally reasonable.

Joe Scarborough (53:32)

Now you have, you have three members of the Trilateral Commission, some of the Bilderberg people that meet there. We have, we have a couple of ex members of the Fed. I can't give their names, but yeah, there are a group of people that do come together. I want to say though, Pablo, let's talk about the. What wins Super Bowls traditionally, what when Super Bowls traditionally you'll have a pretty good quarterback, pretty good offense and a great defense. Seems to me right now that's what the packers have. Jordan left had good numbers the other night. Missed, missed quite a few opportunities. I know I was at Lambo because I was we always send one member to the site in case. Anyway, so I was at Lambo the other night. He missed some opportunities. He did not look like the greatest quarterback ever, but put up good, solid numbers. But that defense, man, that defense like that can win a Super Bowl.

Mika Brzezinski (54:26)

Yeah. Look, the new cliche, which is also a truism, is you got to win in the trenches. And we saw that in the Super Bowl. We see that every time Mahomes gets bailed out by his supporting cast. That tends to be the defense lately. The Eagles, of course, were engineered from the trenches out and up. And so the packers, in terms of them having this real sustainability, you need the quarterback. The quarterback is going to be the person, as we always say on the fight poster, the heavyweight fight poster versus who is it? It's Jordan Love. But really the defense, to your point, is going to be the thing that. That carries them. And that's less of a football nerd take and more something that's certainly noticeable when you watch the Super Bowl.

Frank Holland (55:03)

But yet quarterbacks have never been more important in the league. We have charted how the rise of the NFL has become the dominant sports culture here in the United States. And quarterbacks have become that much more important. And we see it in the salary cap. They're getting astronomical percentage of a team's allotment goes to that one position. Seth. So you dove in, you trace this sort of why makes a quarterback great. You look at a lot of the legends. Obviously we know who number one is, Mr. Brady, but beyond that, some of the younger players as well. So talk to us about the journey of this book.

Seth Wickersham (55:32)

Yeah, thanks. Look, what I was trying to do with the book was trying to understand, look, this job has become so celebrated, so mythologized, so idealized in our culture, and I wanted to understand the things that it builds in these guys who do it, what it strips away. I mean, there are 16,000 high school quarterbacks in any given year in America. About a thousand play at the highest level in college. 32 start in the NFL. 10 are good, and three are great. And what does it take to survive that winnowing? So I tried to look at guys from high school to college to hall of Fame, you know, to the NFL. And then, you know, look, the guys who were in the hall of Fame. Fame and have to retire and live with having done this for the rest of their life. I wanted to understand what that was like.

Joe Scarborough (56:16)

Let's talk about the money, though. I mean, you have people like Dak, you have people like Daniel Jones, even Brock Purdy just getting astronomical paydays. Do you think we've been had an overcompensation in that area and maybe it's going to start drawing back some?

Seth Wickersham (56:33)

No, I actually think, think you could. I mean, look, if Patrick Mahomes, I forget what exactly his contract is, probably you might remember, but like, you can make the argument, yes, that he's undervalued, given, you know, what he means to that team. And I think that like the salaries keep rising, but so does the salary cap in the NFL because the league is so popular and because of the broadcast rights keep going up. And so I think that like, even though these numbers that quarterbacks get are stunning and even quarterbacks who are good but not great are stunning, I don't see that stopping anytime soon.

Joe Scarborough (57:07)

You know, Seth, I've already mocked and ridiculed Pablo for picking Caleb Williams. After hearing me say from the day he was drafted, saying from the day he was drafted, that he was never going to rise to the level that the Bears expect him to. But you picked him as a guy you wanted to follow. Seems like a wonderful guy from everything I've seen. But do you think he's up to it? Do you think he can lead the Bears to great new heights?

Seth Wickersham (57:39)

We'll see. I think that he has a chance now. That's what I would say. And the reason why I followed him is because he was one of those guys that came around, had incredible accolades coming out of college. And he and his dad, like John and Jack Elway and like Archie and Eli Manning, wanted to try to find a way to do a very reasonable thing, and that's have some agency over their future employer. And the question for him was, do I want to blow up the draft to have a chance to go to a better team? And even though he decided not to, and I get into the details why he went to a tough situation last year and like every premonition was realized. And I think that, like, look, he's got a good head head coach in Ben Johnson, whose success is rooted in his own success. And I think that he has a chance to be good. But this stuff is going to take time. But I will say, like, so far this year, he not only are they not producing, but he just doesn't look comfortable. He doesn't look like a guy who's out there with a lot of confidence.

Joe Scarborough (58:37)

All right, good job, Pablo.

Mika Brzezinski (58:39)

I mean, look, Pablo, my fantasy team, if you want to get a grand, I'm happy to provide data and analytics on that. You know, my Fantasy league power rankings are also very important to me.

Eugene Robinson (58:49)

Wow. Okay. All right. Senior writer for espn, Seth Wickersham. Thank you very much. His new book entitled American Kings, a biography of the quarterback is available now. It's great to have you on.

Joe Scarborough (59:04)

Thank you.

Eugene Robinson (59:04)

And you, Pablo.

Mika Brzezinski (59:05)

Mika, the pleasure, as always, is mine. As much as it is an imposition on you.

Eugene Robinson (59:11)

Why don't you stick around?

Mika Brzezinski (59:12)

You know what, I don't know if I have a choice at this point.

Eugene Robinson (59:14)

Yeah, you don't.

Joe Scarborough (59:15)

What does possibility mean to you? Um, that's a hard question.

Mika Brzezinski (59:20)

Something that you can strive for.

Jonathan Lemire (59:21)

I'm able to do anything I set my mind to. You're confident in yourself and you believe in yourself.

Eugene Robinson (59:26)

Stuff that you could achieve.

Jonathan Lemire (59:29)

I feel it's side of anything is.

Joe Scarborough (59:31)

Possible when you're more confident.

Ben Smith (59:33)

Shoes are a huge part of that.

Mika Brzezinski (59:34)

They are the most important part of my style.

Jonathan Lemire (59:37)

You can like express yourself.

Joe Scarborough (59:39)

In the right shoes, anything is possible. Dsw. Countless shoes at brag worthy prices.

Seth Wickersham (59:44)

Imagine the possibilities.