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Morning Joe
Growing number of Senate Democrats vote in favor of failed measures blocking arms sales to Israel
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Growing number of Senate Democrats vote in favor of failed measures blocking arms sales to Israel
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- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
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- [00:09]
Willie Geist
I need a coffee.
- [00:10]
Joe Scarborough
And you need Lifelock because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year. @lifelock.com Specialoffer terms apply.
- [00:30]
Mika Brzezinski
Saturday, October 11, from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhle and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.
- [01:04]
Jonathan Lemire
Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, July 31st, August Eve. My friends, we got a lot to get to this morning. So there's a beautiful live picture from the top of our building here at Rockefeller Center. We'll have the big moments from yesterday's hearing on that deadly midair collision over Reagan National Airport. We'll dig into what the findings show went wrong on that terrible day. It comes as more than two dozen passengers on a Delta flight yesterday had to be taken to the hospital after their flight flight experienced significant turbulence. I'll tell you what happened there. Also ahead, we'll go through the failed efforts by some Senate Democrats to block the sale of weapons to Israel. Plus, President Trump is lashing out at India and Russia on social media after raising tariffs yesterday on imports from India. With us this morning with me and Joe, co host of our fourth hour, contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, NBC News national affairs analyst and a partner and chief political columnist at Puck. John John Heilman, Washington bureau chief at USA Today, Susan Page and president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. He's the author of the weekly newsletter Home and Away, available on Substack.
- [02:15]
Joe Scarborough
Joe? Yeah, a lot to get through this morning. I mean, it does appear, Willie, that Donald Trump's anger at Russia continues. Many people thought that it was going to abate, but it seems that, you know, you look at what he posted overnight, what he said about Medvedev going after India, talking about the purchasing of Russian gas, all of these different things, it really looks like he's going to start applying the pressure for the first time in a long time to Vladimir Putin. Something that many Republicans like Lindsey Graham and the Senate have wanted to do for some time. We're going to be talking to Richard Haass about that. But first up, I tell you, well, when, when Bowie's heard, always heard when you talk to pilots, you know, how did a plane crash happen? What went wrong? And I've heard for years, and I'm sure you have too, they say, well, one thing doesn't go wrong. Everything goes wrong at the same time. That certainly seems to be what happened with that tragic crash early this year in Washington.
- [03:21]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, we got a lot of information about it yesterday. The National Transportation Safety Board this morning now is preparing for its second day of hearings into January's deadly mid air collision near Washington's Reagan National Airport. During testimony yesterday, investigators revealed a critical piece of equipment was malfunctioning that day. NBC News senior correspondent Tom Costello has.
- [03:42]
Joe Scarborough
Details highlighting surveillance video of the mid.
- [03:46]
John Heilman
Air crash over the Potomac River.
- [03:48]
Joe Scarborough
Frustration from NTSB board members after army aviation experts testified that one of the altimeters in the Blackhawk helicopter fleet is.
- [03:57]
John Heilman
Often inaccurate by 100ft or more.
- [04:00]
Joe Scarborough
But the army determined it was within tolerance levels and never advised the pilots. How much tolerance should we have for aviation safety whenever civilian lives are at risk? The army chopper was flying 78ft above the 200 foot limit when it crashed into the American Airlines regional jet. I am concerned there is a possibility.
- [04:20]
Willie Geist
That what the crew saw was very.
- [04:22]
Richard Haass
Different than what the true altitude was.
- [04:26]
Joe Scarborough
Air traffic control asked the chopper flying on a nighttime training mission as PAT25 if it could see the regional jet. The CRJ then told the chopper to pass behind the jet. But the chopper's black box suggests the crew never heard the pass behind order. Family members wiped away tears as they listened to the crash details and the 15,000 previous close calls. At Reagan Airport, Doug Lane lost his wife Christine and son Spencer coming back from a skating camp in Wichita.
- [05:04]
John Heilman
For me personally, you know, adapting to.
- [05:06]
Mika Brzezinski
Life as a single father, I have another son, 13 year old named Milo at home and him and I have had to kind of navigate.
- [05:16]
John Heilman
A new way of life.
- [05:18]
Jonathan Lemire
NBC's Tom Costello reporting there from Washington. Joe So part of what we heard yesterday was that the military helicopter had a bad altimeter. It wasn't working correctly and so the pilot was flying above the limit there. But also all of this, this story as raised so many concerns and now introduced legislation that would clear the civilian airspace. Those airports farther away would get the military traffic farther away from them. So you don't have this crisscrossing of different Aircraft.
- [05:47]
Joe Scarborough
Exactly. I mean, it seems like an absolutely insane way to run airspace around the busiest airports, one of the busiest airports in America. And Jonathan Almir, you have a couple of things here that really are shocking. One is that the army was okay with their altimeters being, oh, 100 or so feet off. Well, that probably made the difference here. If they were 78ft above and their alternator was saying something differently. And the Army's always had, again, one standard for themselves, a standard that would never be allowed in civil aviation again. That obviously has to be fixed right now. But the second thing is, and the bigger problem, and people like Ted Cruz, Republicans and Democrats alike, are saying the same thing. That is the airspace around Reagan national just way too busy, way too congested, way too dangerous. Even after this crash, we still had helicopters, jets coming too close to commercial aviation, planes taking off and landing at Reagan National. And the number here, 15,000. Let's say that again, let's underline it, let's circle it, because, yes, we're focusing on the 78ft that the, that the instruments probably got wrong for the pilots in that helicopter. But the one number that, that is for certain, 15,000. There have been 15,000 close calls at Reagan National. That is sheer insanity. And how the FAA and how the Pentagon ever allowed that to happen for as long as they did is beyond me. How they continue to allow that to go on would be just crim. Negligent.
- [07:35]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, certainly the equipment failure, the equipment mistake, a big part of this. But you're right to highlight just how crowded the airspace is around Reagan National Airport. I was just in Washington the last couple of days, actually working out of an office near the wharf, which is right there across the Potomac from National Airport. And the skies are just full. Yes, there are fewer helicopters now than there were pre crash, but it is still such a busy, busy space. And it is good that Congress is highlighting the concerns about just how overcrowded that airspace is. But let's recall, Congress is also responsible for part of that because so many of their members pushed to have flights added to DCA to get home with Thursday, Friday flights back to their districts. There's been an expansion at that airport. So many more airplanes coming in and out. And of course, it is the nation's capital and there's a series of military bases nearby where there are military helicopters up and down at all hours of the day. Willie. So this is something where, you know, certainly Congress is trying to step in. There have been entirely too many close calls, of course, this tragedy here. But the overall problem persists and will persist unless there's significant change.
- [08:44]
Jonathan Lemire
And that testimony continues today and tomorrow. On the subject of air travel. Delta Air Lines says significant turbulence on one of its flights sent 25 passengers to the hospital yesterday. The flight was from Salt Lake City to Amsterdam, made an emergency landing in Minneapolis after about two hours in the air. The airline has not commented on the condition of the passengers, saying only yesterday they were taken to local hospitals for evaluation. Evaluation and care. Back to the business. In Washington, The Senate rejected two measures that would have blocked $675 million worth of bombs and firearms to Israel. But with a growing number of Democrats supporting the resolutions, they're proposed by independent Senator Bernie Sanders, who wants to stop the sale of bombs and assault rifles to Israel. While both measures were voted down, the first resolution did receive 27 votes in favor, 25 of which came from Democrats. The other two yes votes were from Sanders and fellow independ Independent Senator Angus King. Richard Haas, what do you make of this vote? That it passed, but it didn't pass? It was stopped. But at least 27 members of the United States Senate, a quarter more, are saying we need to stop and talk about what's happening inside Gaza right now.
- [09:57]
Susan Page
Well, Willie, it's part of a larger conversation. We're seeing it with that. We're seeing it in Europe with the French and British positions that come September they're going to independently, unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state. Now Canada is saying it will do the same thing. Essentially, Israel is forfeiting the high ground. It's obviously a combination of the pictures of hungry young people, the lack of food aid and humanitarian aid getting into Gaza, also the use of force. Probably now close to 60,000 people have been killed in Gaza. And even if you say 20,000 were Hamas fighters, that still leaves 40,000 people, 35,000 people who weren't. Plus this 2 million population has now been forced into 25% of Gaza's territory. So essentially there is a humanitarian crisis. Israel is at least partially, if not wholly, not wholly, but partially responsible for it. And what we're beginning to see is the change in international public thinking about Israel. And Israel has to be careful here in the United States. You do not want this issue of Israeli support to become a totally partisan issue. And second, more broadly, Israel doesn't want to make itself the pariah. And I think there's a warning here. And the real question is, will this reverberate in Israeli politics? So far, not, but I think it should.
- [11:12]
Jonathan Lemire
Part of that warning came Yesterday, as you mentioned, from Canada, which now plans to recognize the state of Palestine during the UN General assembly in September. Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney made that announcement yesterday. It comes one day after the United Kingdom said it would do the same. Barring a ceasefire in Gaza. Last week, French President Emmanuel Macron said his country also will recognize Palestine. President Trump's special envoy to the Middle east is set to travel to Israel to discuss the crisis in Gaza today. Overnight, President Trump posted on social media that Canada's support for Palestinian statehood would make it very hard for the US to make a trade deal with Canada. Joe?
- [11:53]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, the two aren't connected and they shouldn't be connected. When you have John Heilman, of course you have, you still have many of Israel's, Netanyahu's, I'll say staunchest offenders, still claiming there's nothing to see here. Move along, move along. And we are seeing some of that. The fact is you have the International Red Cross talking about all the deaths, talking about the horrific conditions there, talking about the famine or near famine conditions that are there right now. You have Israeli human rights groups that are aggressively speaking out against what's going on in Gaza. And yes, there are the pictures, there's not the reporting that we should have coming from there because Israel's army will not allow reporters in a lot of these areas. So what they do then is they say, well, there's no reporting of this. So it's all fabricated by Hamas. No, it's not fabricated by Hamas. These are reports from the International Red Cross, the United nations, and again, as I said, even Israeli groups are now talking about the horrific conditions that the Palestinians are living in right now. And as we look to the vote in the Senate, those are more votes than any of us would have ever counted before, would ever expect. But I think more importantly for Israel and for people who have supported Israel their entire life, such as myself, you need to look at the numbers, you need to look at where younger Americans are. I grew up in the church and just with an innate belief that Israel had a right to exist and that Israel was America's staunchest ally in the Middle east and we always needed to stand shoulder to shoulder with Israel. That's what the majority of Americans have believed throughout our lifetimes. That is changing with younger Americans and the images that are coming out of Gaza right now are poison to Israel's long term strength and standing, not only across the world, but especially in the United States, its staunchest, longest ally.
- [14:08]
John Heilman
Yeah. And I think, you know, Joe, there's I was talking yesterday to David Miliband from the International Rescue Committee, and he, you know, said that on the basis of what he hears on a daily basis from IRC aid workers who are over there trying to distribute humanitarian aid, that it's very clear that Benjamin Netanyahu's claims that the reason that there is the humanitarian aid isn't getting through is because it's being stolen or diverted by Hamas are, if not entirely untrue, largely untrue, and that the solution of dropping aid from the air is creating more problems, more if there is any diversion happening by Hamas, it makes it more likely for it to be diverted when you drop it from the air, and also causes chaos on the ground, a lot of injuries among people scrambling for that food aid, that it gets through. That from Miliband's point of view, got to lift this blockade and let accredited humanitarian aid groups get through. And when that was true during the ceasefire earlier this year, the problems that we're seeing on the ground now, this kind of horrific, appalling starvation conditions, they just weren't. They went away when aid was allowed to go through. The ceasefire was happening, the hunger was manageable. Now it's not. And I will say, you know, we had David Remnick on the show earlier this year, earlier this week, I should say. And, you know, the striking thing is, as David pointed out, is voices from inside Israel, credible voices, people from within Israeli, the Israeli security services and within the military and the former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who are starting to use words like genocide and like war crimes around a policy that looks to them like intentional starvation of civilians in this conflict. And that is, to your point, robs Israel of moral authority and is going to be a huge political problem for it already, but certainly increasing one down the line.
- [16:10]
Mika Brzezinski
So right now we know that President Trump has told people he's been really bothered by some of the images he's seen come out of Gaza in recent days of malnourished, starving children. We know the president is very impacted by occasions, the images he sees of gruesome images, Ukraine and the like. But Susan Page, you know, there's been no meaningful accompanying change of US Policy yet towards Israel. In fact, last night, President Trump made clear he's not willing to take the step that the UK France and Canada have done and recognizing a Palestinian state. But there is some concern, the people I've Talked to in D.C. the last couple of days in the Trump universe about how this is another issue where he seems a little out of Step with some of the MAGA base. No doubt Republican support of Israel has been steadfast for a long time. It's GOP orthodoxy. But others in MAGA world, more the isolationist wing are like, we don't want the US Involved in another foreign entanglement. And they're seeing this humanitarian crisis and feel like some sort of change might be needed. Combine that with the vote we saw yesterday. It seems like the political calculus here is changing in D.C. yeah, I think that's right.
- [17:18]
Richard Haass
You know, we've seen President Trump really install on domestic terms the MAGA agenda he talked about during the campaign. That has not been the case on several of the big foreign policy issues, including Ukraine, where we see a shift in the attitude toward Russia. To the surprise of many, we see the willingness of President Trump to be involved in disputes around the world, including the border battles between Cambodia and Thailand. That was not something I think we could have predicted. And now we're looking at what's happened with Israel. No one has been a stauncher ally of Israel than Donald Trump and of Benjamin Netanyahu. An ally of Benjamin Netanyahu. So does he take the cue from some foreign leaders, our allies in Canada and Great Britain in France, to take stronger action? That sends a message to Netanyahu and to Israel that what's happening in Gaza is unacceptable. That is not something we would have predicted Donald Trump would be doing. But I think it is possible that we are going to see Trump move in some ways to try to put some pressure on Israel to take care of this humanitarian catastrophe that we see unfolding there.
- [18:28]
Joe Scarborough
And, Willie, though it doesn't seem proper to be talking about the politics of this situation for Donald Trump. Certainly people inside the White House calculate that every day like they do inside every White House. And the fact is, there's not a massive political downside for Donald Trump stepping out and speaking out against Netanyahu and what's going on there. Despite the fact that Donald Trump has often said he's Israel's best ally, he's Netanyahu's best ally. 70% of Jewish voters in America voted for Kamala Harris, and that's about what Democrats get every four years. So if they're making political calculations inside the White House, him stepping up and speaking out certainly would not hurt his standing in the polls. It wouldn't hurt his standing politically. There may be a lot of grumbling on the inside, but we've seen that with the Epstein files as well. And Donald Trump's continued to do what he's done. And he's, you know, stated 88, 89% among the Republican Party members.
- [19:32]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah. And it wasn't that long ago President Trump was talking about Netanyahu doing whatever he had to do to, quote, finish the job. Remember, he was talking about turning Gaza into beachfront resort property. But Richard, now he's talking about, quote, real starvation. He's criticizing Netanyahu for that. And you've heard, to John's point, about MAGA Marjorie Taylor Greene calling it genocide this week, the first Republican member of Congress to do that. Yeah.
- [19:57]
Susan Page
These are all straws in the wind. It's not genocide. You can have a more serious conversation about war crimes. The president can do things. What he should not do, I would argue, really, is do what the British and French and Canadians are doing to say, you're going to have a Palestinian state. No, that's not the way to do it. You want Palestinians to earn it. You want Palestinians to say, here's the conditions we're prepared to sign up to. They've got to reassure Israel. At the end of the day, a Palestinian state cannot be imposed from the outside. So, again, this is all signs that the world has grown weary with what Israel is doing in Gaza and increasingly opposes it. But the president has political standing in Israel that even Bibi Netanyahu doesn't have. If the president wants to move the needle in Gaza, he can do it. He can put pressure on Israel not by declaring support for Palestinian state unconditionally, but by pushing the Israelis to come up with a day after plan to stopyou know, to open up the Gaza to food aid, to stop new settlements in the West Bank. There's a lot of things this president can do. If he really wants to get serious about promoting positive movement between Israelis and Palestinians in Gaza and the west bank, so far, he's been reluctant to do it. But the opportunity, some would argue the necessity, is there.
- [21:10]
Joe Scarborough
You know, John Heilman, let's talk about some parallels right now, some parallels between Vladimir Putin and Benjamin Netanyahu. Donald Trump has told both of them, you know, he wants the wars to stop. And with Netanyahu, even during the campaign, as Willie said, he was telling Netanyahu, go ahead, get the job done. Get it over with. Do what you have to do to finish this continues to drag on, just like the war with Russia and Ukraine continues to drag on. After he gets elected. He's telling Netanyahu, get it done. Do what you have to do to get it done. He's now realizing Netanyahu is not Going to, quote, get it done. It's against Netanyahu's political interest for this war to end because of the way this war began, of the way he had already divided Israeli society before October 7th because of the charges that are in front of him. You know, the New York Times ran that huge expose a couple of weeks ago showing how time and time again Netanyahu was told by his military leaders, there is no, there are no more military objectives we can achieve in Gaza. He's been told the same by his intel people, there are no more objectives that we can get. Like the law of diminishing returns in Gaza kicked in a year ago, and yet the war continues against Donald Trump's best interests, against the people of Gaza's best interest. And now we get to a point where Israel's bombing Catholic churches in Gaza, Israeli settlers are attacking the only Christians that are left in the West Bank. This has gone from bad to worse. And the wars continue to expand and the condition in Gaza continues to deteriorate. And Donald Trump can say, just get this over all you want. Netanyahu is not going to end it.
- [23:12]
John Heilman
Well, right. And to your point about the parallel, Joe, it's the same thing with Putin, who when Trump says, well, you know, you've accomplished your objectives. Putin, whether he says this directly or through his actions, indicates it. It's like, no, I haven't. We want Ukraine. We don't want the part of Ukraine. We don't want some kind of a negotiated settlement. Our long term objectives are not what you think they are, President Trump. And I think that in the case of Israel, that's also the case for Benjamin Netanyahu, who, when, when Trump says, well, get the job done. This is a place where Donald Trump's perception of what the job is is at odds with in Netanyahu's case and in Putin's case, they have different ideas about what the job constitutes and what their political and their country's strategic interests are. And which is why you get to this place very quickly. Where to Richard's point a second ago, is what are you willing to do about this, President Trump? What are you willing to do now? What are you willing to say now? What are the messages you're willing to convey verbally or kind of implicitly through various comments, the media, but what is the leverage you're willing to use against either one of these leaders to get them to do what the United States wants it to do? And as of now, it's been a lot of talk and not very much action. In both cases.
- [24:33]
Jonathan Lemire
Speaking of Russia, in another social media post overnight, President Trump called out Russia. He wrote he doesn't care what India does with Russia and that they can, quote, take their dead economies down together. The post also included strong criticism of former Russian leader Dmitry Medvedev, who Trump called a failed president, adding, Medvedev is, quote, entering very dangerous territory. Richard, been interesting to watch the Russians needle Donald Trump a little bit personally on this stuff. They know what gets under his skin. They know how to manipulate him. What do you see here?
- [25:11]
Susan Page
Look, we see the verbal reaction, disappointed with Putin now going after Medvedev. But two things if you want to put pressure on Russia, secondary sanctions, sanctions against India, Turkey and China are not going to do the trick. Russia will find ways to sell its oil. You want to get serious about Russia, increase American support for Ukraine. It's really not that complicated. And the president has been reluctant to do that. Second of all, slightly different foreign policy angle here. This attack on India is not coming out of nowhere. This administration is tilted towards Pakistan in the recent crisis. You now have this attack on India. Who's very happy with this? Willie? China, in the last couple of days, this administration has eased export controls against China. And Nvidia can send these advanced chips. You canceled the stopover of the Taiwan's president and Taiwan's defense minister who was coming here for consultation. Now, this attack on India, over the last two decades, three decades, the United States has moved much closer to India strategically. Why? To push back against China. So if you're sitting in Beijing and you see all this going on, you go, this is really good news for us.
- [26:18]
Mika Brzezinski
And it comes amid, of course, ongoing trade negotiations with China. US Giving Beijing an extension, saying not to give any other countries an extension on their negotiations, but they are with China. That work still continues. And back to Russia here for a moment. Willie Medvedev is someone who rattles the nuclear saber quite a bit. That angers Trump and others in his government. They think he's also perhaps has a bit of a drinking problem. People say, so he's got personal anger there for him. But now we keep talking about rhetoric versus action. Well, he's moved up the deadline. He originally was going to give Putin 50 days. You have to come to the table for a ceasefire agreement in 50 days or we're going to slam you with these secondary tariffs. He cut that to 10 that day. So that now looms next week. Is that deadline August 8th? I believe it is. So that will be the moment. Now we will see. Does Trump push it further Is he willing to give Putin another chance? Or is that the moment where finally he either puts forth his own agenda or offers support for the tough Senate secondary sanctions bill?
- [27:16]
Jonathan Lemire
We'll see very soon. President emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass. Richard, I was with. Great to see you, my friend. Actually still had on MORNING Joe, we'll take a closer look at the Republican Party's efforts to redraw congressional maps and how Democrats are trying to fight that. Semaphore's Dave Weigel joins us with his new reporting. Plus, Kamala Harris says she will not run for governor of California. We'll go through that announcement and the questions it raises about her future in politics. And a reminder, the Morning Joe Podcast is available every weekday, featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching more MORNING Joe. We'll be right back.
- [28:12]
Mika Brzezinski
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wall. This week, she sits down with political commentator Tim Miller.
- [28:22]
John Heilman
Another way of saying I care about.
- [28:23]
Susan Page
You is by saying, like, I'm gonna.
- [28:25]
Mika Brzezinski
Fight the things that are preventing you from living the kind of life that.
- [28:29]
Joe Scarborough
You wish the best.
- [28:30]
Mika Brzezinski
People with Nicole Wallace Listen now. For early access and free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [28:41]
Joe Scarborough
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Former senior policy advisor at the National Economic Council, Aya Ibrahim.
- [28:49]
Richard Haass
I don't think that any American is going to bed being worried about who has the most compute, who has the highest number of GPUs, US or China. That's not what people are worried about. They're worried about housing, health care, education, job opportunities. So to the extent that AI is either an enabler or an obstacle to those things, that is what I think they will end up worrying about.
- [29:10]
Joe Scarborough
That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever you're listening right now.
- [29:14]
Mika Brzezinski
And follow, start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Sharp insights from voice voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [29:34]
Jonathan Lemire
Live picture of the United States Capitol 628 on this Thursday morning. Republicans in Texas yesterday released the first draft of a new congressional map aimed at picking up five seats in next year's midterms. Texas Governor Greg Abbott added redistricting to the special session agenda at the urging of President Trump and his political team. Republicans currently control 25 of the 38 congressional districts in Texas. Under the new maps, the President Trump would have carried 30 of 38 seats, all by more than 10 points. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries is in Texas meeting with Democrats as they weigh their options on how to fight their redistricting efforts, which could include leaving the state. Jeffries is supposed to hold a news conference today at the state Capitol in Austin. Meanwhile, the Texas Tribune has new reporting that California Governor Gavin Newsom has told aides he will move forward with a plan to redraw his state's congressional lines to install more Democrats if Texas Republicans pass their own updated map. Let's bring in MSNBC contributor Mike Barnacle and politics reporter for Semaphore Dave Weigel. Dave's latest reporting is titled Democrats Struggle Against Trump Wage Redistricting Battle. So, Dave, let's talk about exactly what's happening right now, Texas, and how unusual this is. They usually redistrict maps all over the country after the census every 10 years. This taking place right in the middle of a decade, really, from pressure applied by President Trump.
- [31:05]
Willie Geist
That's the part that's unusual. The Supreme Court actually, starting in Texas in 2003, clarified that states can redistrict gerrymander whenever they want. It doesn't need to be right after the census. And what is unique this time is how little pretense there is that this is about anything but helping Trump get more seats. So this started with Harmeet Dhillon at the DOJ sending Texas a letter and saying, we have civil rights concerns about some of the majority minority districts that were drawn in 2021. But listening to the Republicans defending this and posting about social media, they are describing this, the problems in Austin, as giving Trump five more seats. And talking to Republicans in Indiana, Missouri, other places where they have the power to draw more seats if they want to. That is how they phrase it. It is not we are restoring the justice that was denied to us by the previous map, or this is going to better represent these constituents. It is. We want Trump to have more seats. He deserves more seats. We need to stop the left from taking power. And that's what the position Democrats are put in there is. Do they want to defend the idea of independent commissions or something else? They just want to say this is tit for tat. We cannot allow them to turn the country into the comparison I hear the most often is hung.
- [32:20]
John Heilman
Right.
- [32:20]
Joe Scarborough
And Mike Barnacle, we're talking about this in 2025. This has been going on for such a long time. And, you know, whenever some people have come up to me in the past and asked, why are things so different now in Washington than they were before? One of the first reforms I talk about is the ending of gerrymandering. I'm not sure how you get from here to there, but it's absolutely critical because it started, actually started in the 90s when they started using computers to redistrict and they could draw lines perfectly to make sure that if you're in Florida, one, you get all the Republicans. If you're in Florida, two, you get all the Democrats. And you can vote with your party 90, 95, 98% of the time. And a primary win is as good as a general election win. Once you get past the primary, it's over. And so that's why you have so many House members going to the extremes. And they could, whether Republicans are in charge or Democrats are in charge. That's been the case for years now. I mean, we have to figure out a way to end gerrymandering. It would make such a huge difference. Imagine if somebody's instead of in a 9010 district or an 8020 district, they're in a 5050 district or a 55, 45 district. They actually have to listen to everybody in their district. They have to actually do what's best for the country and then go back in their town hall meetings. And instead of talking to people who are 95% Democratic or 95% Republican, they're talking to a lot of independents, they're talking to some Republicans, they're talking to some Democrats, and they're talking about what makes America best, not what makes a party or a president strongest. Yeah, but Joe, you just used the phrase what's best for the country, that they think of what's best for the country. I don't know that anyone on either side of the aisle, Republican or Democrat, is more or less thinking about what's best for the country other than now, uniquely, what's best for us as a party, what's best for me for my reelection race, what's best for me in order to avoid a primary. And Dave Weigel, the idea of this going forward in such a public way, I mean, they're not trying to hide anything. What role will the courts play and when will the courts play it, if they play a role at all?
- [34:44]
Willie Geist
Well, Democrats have the option of suing with the maps are put into effect. They would argue that because this map is going to delete some majority minority seats, that it's a violation of Voting Rights Act. But look at the courts in Texas. Look where this would go, it would get after go through state courts, kicked up to the fifth Circuit. You're not likely to find a panel of judges who will agree with them. There is a risk that gets kicked up to a 6, 3 SCOTUS that says, actually we've read the Voting Rights act again and don't think that you need majority minority districts. Now there are Democrats, Ruben Gallego in Arizona is one of them who say it's time to just give up on the minority district idea altogether because Democrats should be in the business of maximizing how many seats they can win. Go back to 1992, the first time that the south was redrawn where there were more safe black districts. Democrats lost some seats because there were safe seats in places like Birmingham, like Tallahassee, or I should say like Jacksonville. And then they were redrawn away from more competitive seats that Democrats could win. This could be a transformation in how both parties talk about it, moving away from the idea that it's about voters and fairness or about competitiveness and it is about getting partisan advantage whenever you have power.
- [35:58]
Mika Brzezinski
And Susan, let's go further on that point. It could be like an arms race here because some Democrats are suggesting, well, if you're going to do it in Texas, we could do it in some blue states. New York has talked about it as well as California. And there was one map floating around yesterday that would show redistricting of California, not an unrealistic one that would basically wipe Republicans off the map entirely. It would just be nothing but Democratic controlled districts. We're going to a new and I would argue dangerous place here.
- [36:26]
Richard Haass
Of course, we know that some of these blue states, California, New York included, have more legal difficulties in doing kind of the freewheeling we just want to do it so we can do it redistricting that we're about to see in Texas. But I wonder what voters actually think about this new political arms race. Because the times when referenda have gotten onto state ballots to try to get rid of some gerrymandering, to try to make bring some just some common sense to the way districts are drawn, they've done pretty well. And we've seen several states move toward less partisan redistricting in a way that they like now, voters elected this Texas governor and this Texas legislature that's about to do this. So I wonder, and maybe Dave has a view on this, I wonder what voters in Texas think about what's about to happen there.
- [37:15]
Willie Geist
There has not been a lot of polling specifically in Texas yet, but you're Right. When this is presented to voters and the question is, do you want politicians to draw districts where they can never lose? That loses the way that Republicans beat an anti gerrymandering measure in Ohio last year. It helped that Donald Trump was on the ballot, but they had the power to rewrite the language for the ballot initiative and they wrote it so that it sounded like it was pro gerrymandering. They said it was going to take taxpayer funded money and let bureaucrats draw things so that you wouldn't have a voice in this. When it is presented as you don't really get to choose who represents you, one party is going to be in power forever. Yes, voters do reject that, but it's state to state. Michigan, for example, you can put a ballot initiative in front of voters. Democrats did that. Got nonpartisan. Your district, hard to undo. Colorado, hard to undo. And talking to Democrats, my colleague and I burges everybody it talking to Democrats this week. Democrats from states that passed these independent commissions were reluctant to say let's throw it out and let's have perhaps every two years trench warfare where we try to redraw the maps and get new districts. Yes, the ability is there and voters don't like this, but that's the point of gerrymandering. Voters in North Carolina keep voting for Democratic governors and Republicans have drawn the state as such that they're basically uneasy to elect a Democratic legislature.
- [38:40]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. And John Heilman, just so those that haven't followed this closely understand exactly the consequences of this, take a look at Wisconsin, which after the 2010 election started gerrymandering their districts in Wisconsin to favor Republicans every way possible. It got to a point where you would have state legislative races are the tallies. That would be about 50, 50. And yet Republicans would control 60, 65% of the state legislature. I mean, it is so grossly unrepresentative, so unfair. It's the sort of thing, it seems to me that if we're going to do this, we need to have a national pact. We've got to figure out how to do this nationally because we all know what's coming. More and more voters every year becoming independents. And this sort of gerrymandering only seals the faith for Democrats and Republicans alike.
- [39:36]
John Heilman
Right. And Joe, to the point, I mean it really is this kind of war of all against all that we're headed towards here. And it's one of the main ways in which the Trump era has changed our politics. This consideration of there are the legal quandaries and difficulties because of the independent commissions that got set up in a lot of these Democratic states. But the pressure, pressure coming on Democrats who are frustrated with the lack of fight that they see in their leadership. So the pressure coming on by driven by people like Beto o' Rourke and by large parts of the given voice by Beto o', Rourke, but driven by the Democratic base that says, you know, California, New York, Illinois, New Jersey, these are all places where the pressure is now on. And you have Hakeem Jeffries now getting involved in this, kind of taking increasingly the view that, you know, we are suckers if we don't try to in some ways mimic what Donald Trump and Republicans have done, which is to basically say this is not about anything other than political power. And Jonathan said a second ago that it was disturbing. I think where this is headed is to a very ugly place. But again, there are a lot of Democrats who say we're already in that ugly place and we're either going to do unilateral disarmament here or stick with what they see as unilateral disarmament in the form of these non partisan commissions, or we're just going to get swamped, we're going to get shellacked or we're going to get played for fools. The logic of this is leading to a really ugly place, but it is also a kind of compelling logic when the other side is behaving in the way that it's behaving.
- [41:05]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah. One Democrat in the New York Times this morning say we don't have access to the high road anymore. We've got to fight on their terms because this is how it's happening. All right, it's number four is Dave Weigel. Thank you. His latest reporting available online. Now coming up, some immigrant rights groups are raising concerns about the ICE raid happening across the country, saying the agency is taking unnecessary action. NBC's Morgan Radford joins us with more on that when MORNING JOE comes right back.
- [41:32]
Mika Brzezinski
MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.
- [41:35]
Richard Haass
We've never experienced a moment like this in our country. And it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the crowd. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless. We have our voices and I will continue using mine.
- [41:55]
Mika Brzezinski
The Briefing with Jen Psaki Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access. Add free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows. Ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [42:35]
Joe Scarborough
Wow.
- [42:37]
Jonathan Lemire
Drink that in. That's from the torch. Lady Liberty live. Picture, picture. 644, New York Harbor.
- [42:44]
John Heilman
Ever seen that?
- [42:45]
Jonathan Lemire
T.J. great work with the slow pull.
- [42:48]
Joe Scarborough
Yes.
- [42:49]
Jonathan Lemire
A movie poster. Let's just say yes. Tj, Great job as always. Incredible.
- [42:56]
Joe Scarborough
Wow.
- [42:56]
Mika Brzezinski
Look at that.
- [42:57]
Richard Haass
Wow.
- [42:57]
John Heilman
Is TJ out there himself?
- [42:58]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, in the.
- [42:59]
Jonathan Lemire
He's up there.
- [43:00]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. Yeah.
- [43:01]
Jonathan Lemire
He's a hot air balloon. That's right.
- [43:03]
Joe Scarborough
All right.
- [43:04]
Jonathan Lemire
A new Wall Street Journal poll out just this week shows 62% of Americans say they still support the President's deportation efforts. At the same time, a majority in that poll say they oppose some of the ways the administration is going about it, with 58% saying they are against deportation without due process. Now a number of community organizations, volunteers, and even app makers are stepping in to help. NBC News now daily anchor and NBC News correspondent Morgan Radford has more on that. Morgan, good morning.
- [43:35]
Richard Haass
Hey there, Willie. Good morning. Yeah, that due process, that's the key part. We are now seeing dozens of groups across the country working on the ground online in their own communities to fight what they say is unnecessary action by ICE and by Border Patrol. Some are calling it the digital resistance. But as we found out, these volunteers are very real people with a very real stake in their communities. Millions have have seen the videos. More than 56,000 migrants arrested and detained since February.
- [44:14]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, that's 48. I'm a doctor. I'm a doctor.
- [44:19]
Richard Haass
Nearly half of them without criminal convictions or pending criminal charges.
- [44:24]
Susan Page
Hi.
- [44:24]
Richard Haass
Are you a federal agent? Here in the town of Waltham, just outside of Boston, groups like these say they're fighting back. People often use the word resistance. Is this what the resistance looks like?
- [44:36]
Joe Scarborough
Hell, yeah.
- [44:38]
Richard Haass
Founded in February, Puertas volunteers go on near daily patrols, interacting with local residents and looking to spot ICE vehicles.
- [44:47]
Susan Page
We engage ICE officers if they're on the street.
- [44:49]
Jonathan Lemire
We ask them to identify themselves.
- [44:51]
Joe Scarborough
And we also make sure that if.
- [44:53]
Mika Brzezinski
There is someone being detained, we take.
- [44:54]
Susan Page
The information, we let them know their rights, and then we provide.
- [44:57]
Mika Brzezinski
We try to Provide a safety net around their family.
- [45:00]
Richard Haass
Have you seen arrests happen in front of your eyes? Yes. They had detained someone who was with a child, and we were able to walk him home because they just left him, you know, on the street. So you had to walk a child home after ICE agents took their caretaker, the caretaker, off the street?
- [45:21]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah.
- [45:21]
Richard Haass
An estimated 4.7 million children who are US citizens have at least one undocumented parent. Families like Oscars, you don't want to show your face because of fear. We're using a different name to protect his privacy. His partner, a mother of two who wants to go by the name Mariana, was released two weeks ago after spending nearly two months in a detention center. She was just walking to work, so men just came. She's on her way to work. They take her, and they just put her in a car. Mariana was supposed to be here for this interview, but today she's in the hospital because of what Oscar says she experienced in detention. She's got fever, she's got stomach pain. She's weak right now. How are her daughters? The older daughter immediately became depressed, was unable to sleep. But the younger daughter has autism and was reliant on her mother's support. Oscar says he and his family received help from a Massachusetts based network called Luce, which also runs a hotline for people to report ICE activity. They're just one of dozens of organizations across the country, online and in person, aimed at monitoring the agency, like California based People Over Papers, an online platform where volunteers can submit video or photos of suspected ICE sightings. Where we're at right now is well past the 13 million users since we've started this operation. We have people that log on every single day that do not leave their home without first opening our map and your site. I mean, are you all volunteers? That's correct.
- [47:11]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah.
- [47:11]
Richard Haass
We have not made a single dollar. In fact, we're probably in the negative because of the amount of money that we've don to continue this project going. The Trump administration has called for the Justice Department to investigate a similar app called Ice Block, which allows users to see real time reports of ICE activity. What do you say to administration officials who say that apps that identify ICE agents or ICE locations are actually causing those agents harm?
- [47:41]
Mika Brzezinski
It's been pretty well established that those people have the right to the First Amendment.
- [47:45]
Susan Page
We still think it's important, important for.
- [47:46]
Mika Brzezinski
People to step up and support in whatever ways they feel is necessary.
- [47:49]
Richard Haass
Are you all worried about being targeted by the administration or by officials? We know our rights.
- [47:55]
Joe Scarborough
We still have a Constitution and we're.
- [47:57]
Mika Brzezinski
Going to continue exercising our rights.
- [48:01]
Richard Haass
Now, of course, we reached out to the Department of Justice about ICE Block People Over Papers and Fuerza, which all operate in different ways. And they said they will not tolerate the use of apps that allow illegal aliens to evade capture and and disclose the location of our law enforcement. Any threats to the safety of federal agents will be taken with the utmost seriousness and thoroughly investigated to ensure justice is served. Then separately, the White House also responded and they said, in part, this was interesting. They said ICE officers are facing an 830% increase in assaults. Apps that encourage the doxxing of ICE agents only feed into this dangerous trend, adding anyone who uses these apps perhaps to commit crimes will be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. I do want to make it extraordinarily clear that none of the groups that we covered in this story are publicizing the names or the personal information of ICE agents.
- [48:55]
Jonathan Lemire
Willie Fascinating. Morgan. So we heard this is volunteer work. They're not making any money off this, not a dime. Question is, even though there are these groups across the country, is this sustainable?
- [49:04]
Richard Haass
Short answer, no. I mean, very specifically, you heard Celebration say with people over papers they've been putting in their own money. She said, I'm willing to put up my own money if we can't continue. But Fuerza, when we asked Jonathan this very question, he said, look, we need the governor to step in and help. If you just look at the numbers, Fuerza themselves in person, they've seen over 100 arrests in the last three months. The hotline Luce that received these calls, they've had 8,000 calls just since February. So he said if the governor steps in in Massachusetts to curb some of these interactions, one thing that they could do would be to make these virtual court hearings bit more accessible. So at least people aren't getting whisked away from the courthouses when they go to appear, but instead they can stay in the safety of their homes.
- [49:48]
Jonathan Lemire
You know, John, as you listen to this, the Trump administration has moved to we're going to get rid of the worst of the worst. Mississippi 13. Gangs, criminals, rapists, thugs, as the president would always call them to scenes like Morgan just reported on a caretaker being pulled away from a child and this volunteer group having to walk them home. This was not the original mission.
- [50:10]
John Heilman
They said, well, I mean, look, if you think about what Trump said during the campaign, you know, he, the numbers that he sometimes forecast were very high. And so there was a misalignment between the rhetoric which is always we have to get rid of the worst of the worst. But then you'd say, well, how many people do you want to deport? And those numbers ranged from the high single digit millions all the way up to 20 million that he sometimes would cite. And once you're talking about 20 million people were talking about not just the worst of the worst, you're talking about this larger group. What some predicted at the time was that when you start, if you tried to get to those larger numbers and you started to reach into these non criminal categories of immigrants, that there would be political backlash. And if you look at Trump's numbers right now on immigration, they are underwater. The site of a lot of these stories in the public has proposed provoked a certain amount of backlash. It's not, is not overwhelming yet. But gradually his numbers on immigration, which were for a long time his strongest political card or strongest political issue, have deteriorated considerably. And I think they're going to keep getting worse if they keep going down this path.
- [51:12]
Joe Scarborough
So, John Lemire, talk about how the White House is balancing this. You have in one instance a southern border which Donald Trump promised he would secure. You wouldn't have the number of migrants crossing every day that you had during the Biden administration. That certainly is the case. I mean, the southern border is as secure as it's been in 60 years. On the other side of that, Joe Biden was able to deport a larger number of people who came here illegally because there were so many, so many more near the southern border border. Now that's not the case. So you, you have the Trump administration on one hand wanting to be able to celebrate basically, for the most part, quiet southern border. But to keep up with the numbers of Biden, to keep up with the numbers of Obama, they're having to go into neighborhoods, they're having to do things that they know are not politically positive for them and also are just, just are brutish and turn off a lot of voters. Are they? Because I keep hearing that they're looking forward to the possibility of an immigration compromise on the Hill. Where are they right now, though, on that?
- [52:43]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, a senior White House official and I had a very similar conversation earlier this week about this very issue. This official sort of categorized the Trump administration as being victims of their own success. This is his phrasing because of how, as you say, the border has gone really quiet. They have been able to, you know, had those early wave of deportations, but there's a demand from the top and that's from President Trump Yes. About hitting numbers, making sure that deportations are out there. And it also, this shows the just the empowerment of Stephen Miller, deputy chief of staff. He is the architect of this deportation program. He's the one who's pushed federal agencies to go into think places like Walmarts and other into the communities to find people to get them out. Mike. And that has allowed them to try to hit some of these benchmark numbers. But it's also created these scenes that just brought to us in Morgan's report and starting to trigger a real backlash. There may be an appetite for a larger immigration deal down the road that's not anywhere close right now. So instead, we're left with this.
- [53:41]
Joe Scarborough
Well, and yes, and Morgan, your piece outlines and gets to one of the component parts of the unrest about this issue in that families are now being broken up, innocent families, hardworking families.
- [53:53]
Richard Haass
American families.
- [53:54]
Joe Scarborough
American families. Yes. And it's also giving rise. And the piece alluded to this a bit. There's a rising sense of vigilantism among people in neighborhoods like in Waltham, as you just pointed out, who patrol parking lots of supermarkets looking out for ICE members. And I'm just wondering, did you get a sense of the growth of this kind of movement, this kind of activity.
- [54:20]
Richard Haass
On behalf of ICE or the resistance? Resistance, absolutely. I mean, and what they would say is Trump is essentially saying, I am creating a problem that only I can can solve. He's essentially, by their words, making people illegal. People who are showing up at courthouses who already have their papers submitted, who are doing all of the right things. He's creating a new generation of illegal Americans and then saying that I'm the only one who can solve this problem that I have thusly created. And so they're saying, this is the only thing we can do. We can fight. We can fight digitally. We can fight from the comfort of our homes. We can fight by going in the community. But they said it's not just to protect the immigrants who are scared, who are in hiding, who are afraid to leave their homes. I personally know people who say, look, I only take my kid to school and I come home. I can't do any of the extracurriculars. I can't be a present parent in the community. I cannot contribute to the community in real time because I'm too afraid. And so when you have those types of people who are going into hiding, the fuerza and the people who are showing the resistance are saying it's not just about supporting them, it's so that other Americans see that we are vigilant. It's so that other Americans see that we know this is not okay. So it's that Willie Geiss knows it's not okay, so that Morgan Radford knows it's not okay. So Mike Barnacle knows it's not okay. Because their point is now that you know, even though this isn't what Trump said, even though this isn't what he ran on, he said it was just the criminals and everyone's finding out it's not just the criminals, even though that's what he promised. Now that you see that that is not the promise that was fulfilled, what do you do about it?
- [55:48]
Jonathan Lemire
Interesting to see people like Joe Rogan too, time and again saying, this is not what we voted for. We voted for you to get rid of criminals, not to go into Home Depot parking lots and scoop people up. Fascinating as always from you, Morgan. NBC News correspondent News now anchor Morgan Radford. Thank you, John Hammond. Thank you as well. We'll see you again soon.