Joe Scarborough (2:09)

Yes. Of where he was in the, in the.

Jonathan Lemire (2:12)

Tell us the story about James K. Polk.

Joe Scarborough (2:13)

John.

Jonathan Lemire (2:14)

Got one.

Jon Meacham (2:15)

One term president.

Joe Scarborough (2:16)

Yeah.

Jon Meacham (2:16)

More than almost double the size of the country. Known as Young Hickory.

Joe Scarborough (2:20)

Young Hickory.

Jonathan Lemire (2:21)

This is a fun game.

Joe Scarborough (2:22)

Millard Fillmore.

Jon Meacham (2:24)

You know one of those that you kind of skip over on the placemat.

Joe Scarborough (2:28)

Yeah.

Jon Meacham (2:28)

You hope the applesauce falls on it.

Joe Scarborough (2:30)

Yeah.

Mika Brzezinski (2:30)

Skip over on the place, Matt. All right. Okay, back to the headlines.

Joe Scarborough (2:38)

War of the road.

Mika Brzezinski (2:39)

No. The government shutdown continues. We're going to bring you the latest from Capitol Hill. Meanwhile, President Trump is floating the possibility of invoking the Insurrection act to send national guard troops into U.S. cities. We'll look at what options state and local officials have to block it. The use of that federal law could come up later this morning when Attorney General Pam Bondi testifies before the Senate Judiciary Committee. We'll bring you live coverage of that hearing. Plus a thrilling finish on Monday Night Football where a busted play turned into the game winning touchdown.

Jonathan Lemire (3:21)

That's incredible. Really felt twice.

Joe Scarborough (3:24)

Pretty good. Let's, let's see that again.

Mika Brzezinski (3:25)

Never give up.

Joe Scarborough (3:26)

There's an old Elvis Costello song called I can't America right now for falling down. Yeah. And look at this. Trevor Lawrence, will he take us through it?

Jonathan Lemire (3:34)

Well, it looks like the center trips right guard, steps on his right foot, falls once, twice. Remember the NFL, you have to be used to be down. If that was college, he would have down. Breaks a couple tackles, makes a move, cuts it inside, dives, breaks the plane. Less than 30 seconds left. The Jags.

Mika Brzezinski (3:51)

I like that guy.

Jonathan Lemire (3:51)

And by the way, the Jags 4 and 1.

Joe Scarborough (3:54)

Yeah.

Jonathan Lemire (3:54)

In a really an NFL where nobody wants to be great, nobody wants to see. The Bills lost. The Eagles lost the other day.

Joe Scarborough (4:01)

Yeah.

Jonathan Lemire (4:01)

Watch out for these Jags. They look good.

Joe Scarborough (4:03)

Well, you know, down 4, they needed a touchdown. This came at the very end. You also have really the story. Well, I mean the Jags are another four one team. Just like the Colts are four and one. You have quite the Bucks are. Are four one. You have a lot of teams that were mediocre last year doing well. The story here though is, and I hate to tell poor Pablo, the next time he comes in, he keeps stubbornly picking. You're not here on Mondays.

Mika Brzezinski (4:25)

Yeah, well, I might need call in.

Joe Scarborough (4:28)

But on Monday mornings you miss. It's magic. Did you ever see War Games with Matthew Broderick?

Jonathan Lemire (4:34)

What a great movie.

Joe Scarborough (4:35)

Yeah, you ever see that?

Jonathan Lemire (4:36)

That's one, two play.

Joe Scarborough (4:37)

You ever see space out of 2001 with Hal?

Jonathan Lemire (4:40)

Of course.

Joe Scarborough (4:40)

That's what we bring to the show. Every Monday morning we have a computer that picks the top five NFL team. There it is right there. Yeah, exactly. And so we go in, we go over to the Marriott marquee. We have Sinatra live at the Sands, Count Basie orchestra playing in the background. We bring in all of these luminaries from all over the place. Yes, of course, the CDs for my eight track tape. I wore it out a couple months ago on the golf course. Just putting the side. Yeah. So anyway, but he keeps, by the way, Don Rickles, third cousin there, he's a great guy.

Mika Brzezinski (5:17)

It's going along.

Joe Scarborough (5:19)

Yeah, he's.

Jonathan Lemire (5:19)

Good life.

Joe Scarborough (5:20)

Yeah, good life. But anyway, Pablo keeps picking. The Chiefs picking. They're two and two. It's the best team now they're two and three. Chiefs are doing three. I'm afraid the sun is setting on that dying empire.

Jonathan Lemire (5:33)

Might have to get off that bandwagon. They look Mahomes. Did look like Mahomes from what I saw last night. Kelsey scored a touchdown. But they're not the dynastic cheese that there were a couple of years.

Joe Scarborough (5:44)

Tonight's tonight, the Yankees. Okay, how's it go?

Mika Brzezinski (5:47)

This sets along with Joe.

Willie Geist (5:49)

Hold on, hold on.

Joe Scarborough (5:50)

No, no, hold. This is. This is why the kids came.

Jon Meacham (5:53)

Exactly.

Joe Scarborough (5:53)

The Yankees tonight. It's huge. Radon has to have a.

Jon Meacham (5:57)

You got to get to the kid. You got to get to the kid tomorrow, right?

Jonathan Lemire (6:00)

Yes. We got Radon tonight maybe. But boy they look.

Jon Meacham (6:03)

That's the dreadful game four.

Jonathan Lemire (6:05)

Not even in the game the first two games. So now we're back home. Anything can happen.

Jon Meacham (6:09)

No more football scores. We don't want those anymore.

Jonathan Lemire (6:11)

Yeah. Seriously didn't like that. Yeah.

Joe Scarborough (6:13)

I will say the. The story really so far with the Yankees has. Has to be Aaron Judge.

Jonathan Lemire (6:20)

Yeah.

Joe Scarborough (6:20)

And if you're looking at what his legacy is going to be, he needs to come through. If you know last season, his very good season, everybody just remember dropping the ball in the fifth inning, disastrous fifth inning this year. People already talked about Saturday, striking out, bases loaded. He's got to come through. I mean for his legacy.

Jonathan Lemire (6:41)

Yeah. All time great Yankee. No question about a hall of Famer, all those things. But there has not been a World Series since he came on and his statistics are what they are in the playoffs. It's not great. We love the guy, he's a great player. But he has not come through in the playoffs. Maybe it changes. We got. Something's got to give while we're sitting here. I'm sorry, Mika, because we have a Vanderbilt professor. I wasn't here yesterday.

Joe Scarborough (7:02)

Right.

Jonathan Lemire (7:02)

Congratulate the time on a great game in Tuscaloosa Saturday. That was a really hard fought game. It was a good game. We had a couple turnovers that we wish we hadn't had. But that's also a product of your defense. That was a great.

Joe Scarborough (7:13)

Well, you know, it's Pavia actually.

Jonathan Lemire (7:14)

He.

Joe Scarborough (7:15)

He's the reason you guys won last. I say he's a reason. A really good top to bottom Vanderbilt team. Right?

Jonathan Lemire (7:22)

Yeah.

Joe Scarborough (7:23)

And then Pavia had a great game last year. This year had a horrible game.

Jonathan Lemire (7:26)

Yeah.

Joe Scarborough (7:27)

Kind of should. Should have kept his mouth shut.

Jonathan Lemire (7:29)

That's right.

Joe Scarborough (7:29)

Just put your head down, play football. But the thing that struck me was that going into it all of us were nervous about the game and we Were nervous, like even, you know, in halftime. And we were saying to each other this. I mean, we always circle the third, the third Saturday in October because it's Tennessee game. But this Vandy program is going to give us fits every single year. That really speaks to your coach, speaks to the organization just how great this Vanderbilt team is. They had a bad day because their quarterback had a bad day. The other 21 players playing were really good, top quality.

Jonathan Lemire (8:10)

And give credit to your quarterback, Ty Simpson, that kid is a star now. All of a sudden he looks great. And John and I were saying what you just said too, which is the idea that we're mad that we lost at Alabama. We're frustrated with the way we play. That is such a shift from the mentality of the SEC and Vanderbilt and they've still got. They lost that game. Alabama's going to go on and have a great season. So Vanderbilt still has a lot in front of them.

Jon Meacham (8:34)

I mean, not since the University of the south founded Southeastern Conference.

Joe Scarborough (8:39)

Exactly.

Jon Meacham (8:39)

Shortly before the.

Joe Scarborough (8:40)

Was Swanee ever in the sec.

Jon Meacham (8:43)

Swanee is a founding member of the sec.

Joe Scarborough (8:47)

Look what they did before.

Jon Meacham (8:48)

It was shortly before the Missouri Compromise.

Jonathan Lemire (8:50)

But we've done it.

Joe Scarborough (8:51)

You know, last time Vanderbilt beat Alabama And Tuscaloosa was 1984. I was there. There about half the stands were empty. I was playing Parcheesi on the top row with somebody who's. It was. It's been a time and now it's a series.

Jonathan Lemire (9:06)

Was that the year after Bear left and things were a little bleak?

Joe Scarborough (9:10)

Yeah.

Jonathan Lemire (9:10)

Yeah, I think so.

Mika Brzezinski (9:11)

Along with Joe, Willie and me.

Joe Scarborough (9:13)

Are we ever going to get to the news?

Mika Brzezinski (9:15)

Come on. Yeah, I'd like to. Columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius is with us and co founder and CEO of Axios. Jim, Vande Hei is here. Thank God.

Joe Scarborough (9:27)

Let me tell you, Vande Hei does not play Parcheesi during the Green Bay games. He was kind enough. He and Mike Allen, the family, were kind enough to invite me up there. Vande Hei locked in.

Mike Barnacle (9:39)

I'll play par with you anytime.

Joe Scarborough (9:40)

Fire. Only thing I wanted to say to Vanderbilt was sit down. I mean, he's up every play screen. I mean, it's.

Jon Meacham (9:48)

Does he wear one of the cheese hats?

Joe Scarborough (9:50)

No, he does not. He's, you know, he's a corporate titan now when you, you know, from Oshkosh. So when he goes there, he has to, you know. But once that game starts. Come on. He is locked in.

Mika Brzezinski (10:01)

Okay.

Joe Scarborough (10:02)

It's exciting.

Mika Brzezinski (10:03)

Yes, we love it.

Joe Scarborough (10:04)

Are you guys going to win. How good are the packers this year? The two, two, one kind of. I'm a little confused right now because it looks so great the first two weeks.

Mike Barnacle (10:13)

I feel good about the Packers. I think you guys are right. I think the Chiefs kind of stink this year. The Ravens, who we thought would be great, really stink this year. And the Eagles might be the worst, most boring four in one team in the history of football.

Joe Scarborough (10:24)

So it's wild. And I've got to say, the Cubs, by the way, the Cubs are a, they are not a good team. The Cubs are a very good team. And brewers right now simply looking like the best team in baseball. I don't know if you know this or not. Sometimes we talk a little too much about teams on the east coast in the Eastern time zone and don't talk about central time zone. The Milwaukee brewers, best record in baseball all year. They do everything right and man, they have a commanding lead in that series against the Cubs.

Mike Barnacle (10:56)

It's really amazing. It's a great story. We've talked about it before. I just think like a bunch of no name players, they're phenomenal. They don't have the payroll of you big shots and they keep on winning.

Mika Brzezinski (11:05)

All right, we'll do sports again in sports, but good conversation. We want to get to the news now and we have a lot to get to this morning. First, today marks, if you can believe it, two years since the Hamas terrorist attacks on Israel. Well over a thousand Israeli civilians were killed and dozens were taken hostage. The attack was the catalyst which sparked Israel's military campaign in Gaza, which has led to the deaths of tens of thousands in the territory and also set the stage for separate confrontations with other actors in the Middle east, including Iran and the Lebanon based group Hezbollah. Indirect talks between Israel and Hamas to end the war in Gaza are expected to continue today in Cairo. Negotiations are being mediated by the United States, Qatar and Egypt. On social media, President Trump said talks were proceeding rapidly and that yesterday's meetings involved Clarif, what he called final details.

Joe Scarborough (12:09)

And you know, Mika, as I said yesterday, what we're hearing, what I'm hearing from the White House, Netanyahu seems boxed in, boxed in by Donald Trump, boxed in by Americans and increasingly by his own people. And there was a poll that came out last yesterday that showed that going.

Mika Brzezinski (12:27)

To get to that. Yeah. Meanwhile, a new poll finds that two thirds of Israelis say the time has come to end the war in Gaza. The latest poll by the Israel Democracy Institute finds that 66 of Israelis say the time has come to end the war in Gaza, up 13 points from one year ago. That's compared to 27% who say that the time has not yet come. The main reason Israelis say the war should end is the endangerment of the hostages, followed by those who say the economic and social damage is too great. 64% think Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu should take responsibility for the October 7 attack and resign, with 45% saying he should do so immediately and 19% saying he should do so after the war. And that is one of the issues here, is Netanyahu's leadership.

Joe Scarborough (13:22)

Yes. And Willie, I'll go ahead and say it so Jon Meacher doesn't have to. Abraham Lincoln said, with public opinion, anything's possible. Without it, nothing is. Well, right now, Benjamin Netanyahu does not have two thirds of the Israeli people on his side. They want the war to end, want him to resign. And so this is, again, this is something that we've been talking about for a very long time, that when the war ends, the people of Israel are going to want Benjamin Netanyahu out. And that's in part one of the reasons why he doesn't want the war to end. According to the New York Times, Israeli newspapers, you see that story replayed time and time again.

Jonathan Lemire (14:05)

Yeah, these numbers are big and they've been trending that way for some time. And yet Netanyahu has persisted in this campaign, still bombing, even as these peace negotiations go on. David Ignatius, so what are the realistic expectations, the hopes perhaps of what could come out of Cairo and these talks? When you have Hamas on one side of the table, Israel on the other, what's the best case scenario for a resolution here?

David Ignatius (14:31)

Well, the hope is that President Trump's peace plan for a phased Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, for disarmament of Hamas, for Hamas to accept that its political and military leadership in Gaza is over, will be negotiated. There'll be amnesty for those in Hamas who want to take it, that Hamas leaders who want to leave Gaza will do so. A series of things which amount to total surrender of Hamas. And not surprisingly, Hamas is resisting that, especially, it seems, the Hamas fighters on the ground in Gaza. The leadership that's outside has signaled that it's ready for this deal, but we're still, I think, some days at a minimum, from agreement. The deal would mean that the 20 living hostages and the bodies of the other hostages would finally come home. That this two year story that's been so tragic, traumatic in every way for both Israelis and Palestinians, would, if not be over, would move into a different phase. But these negotiations require Hamas to face up to the reality that its moment is over.

Joe Scarborough (15:50)

Its moment is over. And here's the New York Times today talking about the tragic, tragic arc, Jon Meacham, of this two year war. I think so much. You know, they say history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. This seems to be rhyming a good deal with the United States. After 9, 11, we had the world on our side, just like Israel had the world on its side after October 7. We were seen as overreaching. Benjamin Netanyahu seen as overreaching. And even in America, among Jewish Americans, the numbers are just striking. The condemnation of Benjamin Netanyahu, I think well over 60%. Well, Netanyahu's leadership of Israel down 32%. But then American Jews are asked if Benjamin Netanyahu has committed crimes against war, crimes against Palestinians, 61% in America, only 29% of Jewish Americans say he has not committed war crimes. And almost 4 in 10, almost 4 in 10 Jewish Americans say Netanyahu has committed, his policies have amounted to genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. The White House sees these numbers. This is not, this is not like, you know, anti Semitism. Nobody can squawk that it's anti Semitism when these are American Jews that are saying this. The White House sees this. And that's one of the reasons, I think the totality of all this is when Netanyahu first started to talk down the peace prospect, the report out of Axis, which we'll talk to Jim Van Di about in a second, was President Trump screamed in Netanyahu. Why are you always so effing negative? This is White House said, we're going to get this done. And it looks like, looks like that may be the case in part because the weakness now of Netanyahu, Netanyahu's own standing in Israel and America, you know.

Jon Meacham (17:59)

If one needed a case study in the intractability, the perils, the combination of both human factors and historical ones, the underlying factors of identity and real estate and justice, you couldn't do a better one. I mean, this is our more revealing case study in that, I mean, I was just thinking as you were talking, Mika's father was dealing with this 50 years ago.

Joe Scarborough (18:37)

Right.

Jon Meacham (18:38)

You know, this is a, and I would argue, I remember David would rank this, the last two years in his career in terms of the Middle East. But everything, every way you sort of walk up to it, there's nothing straightforward. I would think it's hard. There's nothing simple about this. And it requires something that we don't have enough of, which is a capacity for those in power to give up that power if they need to, to establish a greater good. And that's something that's very hard to arrive at.

Jonathan Lemire (19:19)

Jim Vande Hei, let's talk about that Axios report Joe mentioned. You obviously have Jared Kushner, Steve Witkoff running these negotiations for the United States in Cairo, but the president himself, clearly, according to your report, and others, frustrated with Prime Minister Netanyahu, his intransigence, his unwillingness to sit down and yield anything at the moment. So how frustrated is Donald Trump with with Bibi Netanyahu today?

Mike Barnacle (19:47)

I think very frustrated. Interesting kind of peek behind the curtain. I think three of the last four weekends, President Trump has talked to Barack Ravid at Axios specifically about this topic. And in each one of those conversations, he's pushing really hard for a deal, making it very clear he's getting frustrated with Netanyahu, that he's tired of feeling like he's kind of getting played and that he wants this resolved. And if there's a deal, it really is going to be because the president has had it with Bibi and that he's not going to enable him anymore. He's the one person I think that Bibi has to listen to. So as you want to, like, think about these dynamics, there's really two people to follow. I would read what David Ignatius writes about this because he comes at it with sourcing from so many different areas. And then Barack Ravid, who's actually talking to the president, talking to folks in Israel, and then talking to the people who are involved in the peace deal. One of the reasons that the president is so adamant about getting this done and I think expresses some confidence in getting it done, is that you have Jared Kushner and you have Tony Blair, you have others who've been pushing for a much more global deal in the Middle East. And he feels like he's quite invested in that. And so it's still a long shot. There's so many pieces that have to come together. There's a million reasons Hamas wouldn't want to do this deal or return the hostages and give up the power that it has. But I think as long as the president's putting that pressure on Bibi, it gives you the best possible chance that you can finally end this.

Joe Scarborough (21:15)

And you know, David Ignatius, speaking of Jared Kushner, Jared is an example of actually experience pays off, right? You have a White House. It has a bunch of people who are in cabinet Agencies that seem ill equipped because of a lack of experience in those positions. You had Kushner flying around the Middle east for the first four years, putting together the Abraham Accords, dealing with all these people. He knows them as well as anybody in the United States. He's been doing it again with Steve Witkoff. They have been flying around and, you know, even UN Week when, after the Qatar attack, and people thought the deal was dead, my reporting is that's when they all sat in a room with the Qatari leadership during UN Week and said, come on, now is the time to do a deal. And because they knew the party so well, they were able to say, when the Qatari said Netanyahu is not going to do anything, they reportedly said, we'll take care of Netanyahu, you take care of Hamas, and let's not negotiate. Let's write down 20 or so points that they're going to have to agree to. And it's worked. And again, to me, that's a lesson, again, in experience, in being there and not just coming off of a talk show and running the Department of Defense, not just coming off of some crank, you know, section of the anti vax movement and running hhs. And I'm dead serious. You have somebody who has experience, who knows people. This is why George H.W. bush was such, you know, so extraordinary in bringing the Cold War to an end, because he had been doing it for decades with the people whose relationships mattered, in making that happen the way it did. And so now here's Kushner, who's been around doing this with the Abraham Accords. And now here's part two of it. I mean, it seems to me a very clear message should make it into the Oval Office. Yeah, experience matters.

David Ignatius (23:31)

So you're right, Joe, in that Jared Kushner does have contracts across the Middle East. He jumped into business with Saudi money after Trump first administration ended. Some say he's too close, but he does understand the issues. He has the contacts. I remember two years ago, in the immediate aftermath of October 7th, traveling to Israel and hearing Israelis say, and you could see it in their body language and everything they did, a sense that the country was so shaken and traumatized by what had happened that as one senior official put it to me, we can't find ourselves out of this on our own. We need American help. And they finally got it. In a very firm, insistent push from Donald Trump, backed by the expertise of Jared Kushner. This peace plan came together, really, because Kushner, with Trump's backing, took all the elements that Arab countries, Israel, all the players had been working on, sometimes for more than a year, and pushed them together and demanded that they be acted on. Suddenly, this became a 20 point peace plan, Donald Trump's peace plan. But it was something that was pulled together really, as you say, over a weekend. The question now, I think is in this conflict, you can get people right to the edge of peace. I've seen that over and over again. But getting them in that last distance, you know, getting Hamas to actually accept that it will be disarmed in Gaza, that is, as I said earlier, that its moment has ended. There's a lot still to be done. It's easier to say that than make it happen. But you're right. In this case, the US had both some expertise on Kushner's part and President Trump's increasingly intense commitment to make it happen. And his anger at Netanyahu, who was.

Joe Scarborough (25:37)

Resisting closing the deal, is next to impossible. I mean, it happens so rarely. We saw it happen 26 years ago in Ireland, Northern Ireland. Just doesn't happen. It just doesn't happen that much here, though. A unique situation where, as David said, the Israelis said, we can't find ourselves out of this alone. We need the Americans here playing a role. And Arab leaders have been telling me for a couple of years, yeah, we'll be glad to help, we'll be glad to help, but Trump and the Americans have to be there. We're not going to do it unless they're there. It's so opposite of what we've heard about, you know, from so many Arab leaders through the years, which is, you guys stay away, you worry about you, we'll worry about us. Now it seems both sides in this intractable 3,000 year conflict are saying, all right, we'll be in if the Americans are in.

Jon Meacham (26:31)

I think David's exactly right. Someone has to give something at the, at the last moment. That's what a compromise is. It's not a compromise if you want to do it. And, you know, I think about Reinhold Niebuhr. You know, the, the sad duty of politics is to establish justice in a sinful world and politics.

Joe Scarborough (26:54)

Who was I quoting yesterday? Who was I quoting yesterday to you?

Jonathan Lemire (26:58)

Niebuhr.

Mika Brzezinski (26:58)

Bieber Reinhold.

Joe Scarborough (27:00)

In fact, they called him at halftime of the Vanderbilt game. Right. And what did I say?

Jonathan Lemire (27:03)

This is Niebuhr esque.

Joe Scarborough (27:05)

It's just.

Jonathan Lemire (27:05)

I knew exactly what you meant. Say no more.

Joe Scarborough (27:07)

I didn't even see we talking shorthand. I never float. Yeah. What I would say neither esque, but go ahead.

Jon Meacham (27:13)

The tragedy of history is its default.

Joe Scarborough (27:15)

Yes.

Jon Meacham (27:17)

It'S happy conclusions order is the exception, not the rule. And what we're all called to do is to work for that order.

Joe Scarborough (27:28)

And.

Jon Meacham (27:31)

This question is the single most intractable geopolitical issue of the last what.

Joe Scarborough (27:40)

Certainly, certainly since 1948, certainly since the reestablishment of Israel is a state.

Jon Meacham (27:48)

And it's just, it's really, really hard.

Mika Brzezinski (27:51)

All right, the Washington Post, David Ignatius, thank you very much for being here this morning. Good to see you. And still ahead, by the way, that's.

Joe Scarborough (27:58)

A very good W imitation. It's hard. It's hard.

Mika Brzezinski (28:03)

Yeah.

David Ignatius (28:03)

Yeah.

Mika Brzezinski (28:04)

All right. As we enter day seven of the government shutdown, we'll tell you where things stand this morning on Capitol Hill and the surprise Republican who supporting part of the Democrats demands. Plus, the latest on the president's push to deploy the National Guard to police American cities as Trump considers invoking the Insurrection act if courts block his plans. And a reminder, the Morning Joe podcast, available each weekday, featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back.

Joe Scarborough (28:51)

The bottom line is, even as the Trump administration tries to end abortion access, slash funding and shut down health centers, Planned Parenthood continues its vital work without flinching. The assault on reproductive health is strategic and persistent. And who gets hurt the most? Women, people of color, rural communities, folks with low incomes, the people who already face the biggest barriers to care. If you believe everyone deserves to control their own body and future, donate now@plannedparenthood.org.

Mika Brzezinski (29:20)

Defend the connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other. To have a conversation that has never happened before, but on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.

Nicole Wallace (29:43)

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access. Add free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

Joe Scarborough (30:23)

Turner to Second Base, Tommy Edmond Low Throw, Freddy Freeman with A scoop and the ball game is over. Oh, my goodness.

Jonathan Lemire (30:36)

Freddy's always there, man. But they escaped the Dodgers. It was a ninth inning rally by the Phillies. That scoop at first base by Freddie Freeman saved the game. Louisiana holds on for a 43 win, pushing the Phillies now to the brink of elimination. The best of five series shifts to Los Angeles for game three tomorrow night with the Dodgers up to nothing. Join us now, the co host of our fourth hour staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, and MSNBC contributor, our good friend, Mike Barnacle Lemire. The playoffs, my Yankees are getting outscored like 10, nothing every game. 13, seven. Yeah, you got the Phillies on the brink of elimination, the Cubs on the brink of elimination. The only competitive series at this point is the brewers and, excuse me, the Mariners and the Tigers.

Willie Geist (31:21)

Yeah, the heart breaks for the Yankees, to be sure.

Jonathan Lemire (31:23)

I feel it.

Joe Scarborough (31:24)

But that series, how are you getting. How did you get through this week?

Willie Geist (31:27)

It's been. It was a real challenge.

Joe Scarborough (31:29)

Is that why you were texting me? It's now 12 to nothing.

Willie Geist (31:32)

Something like that.

Joe Scarborough (31:32)

Is that why? Yeah, it's not.

Jonathan Lemire (31:33)

It's not over till it's rooting. Like, I don't root against you guys when you're not playing us.

Joe Scarborough (31:39)

Of course you don't.

Jonathan Lemire (31:40)

I just get out with my love, outside the weather's point, with my children, you know.

Joe Scarborough (31:44)

You know what, you have 27 rings. Okay.

Jonathan Lemire (31:47)

Yeah. It's been a while, though.

Willie Geist (31:49)

We root against to be sure, but series, look, series not over. I mean, yeah, yes, I know, but they come. They come home. I'm not saying. No, no, no, I'm not saying that.

Joe Scarborough (32:00)

Wait, who thinks it's over? You think it's part of this? First of all, they get through tonight. Then you've got tomorrow. You've got the Blue Jays that are having to cobble together a bullpen start. I will say at the end of their season, their pitching staff, they were lost. They didn't know what to do. Other than their number ones. I'm dead serious. Other than the number one starter, I could very easily see this one going to five. And then the Yankees are going to have to do something they've not been able to do this year, and that is play well in Toronto against Toronto's best pitcher.

Mike Barnacle (32:29)

The baseball gods have decreed it's over.

Joe Scarborough (32:33)

Really?

Willie Geist (32:34)

But if the Yankees can swing tonight, you guys have Walter Johnson going tomorrow in the form of Cam Schlitter. So, I mean, it's not. It's not there.

Joe Scarborough (32:41)

He's.

Willie Geist (32:41)

That's the That's a reference.

Jon Meacham (32:43)

Get to the. Get to the. Get to the young guy.

Joe Scarborough (32:45)

Yeah. Tomorrow. Yeah. So. Well, I'm serious. They win tonight. And it does remind me, 2004, where Millar said, you don't want us to win game four because we have here game five. Game six, if you guys win tonight, then game. I mean, and Rodin has had a great year, then suddenly you've got this young Walter Johnson, and then it's, you know, all the pressures on Toronto going back home, and it's. It's. It's tied up going into the final.

Jonathan Lemire (33:12)

Game in a hole. I definitely don't think it's over. Radon Schlitler. And then, who knows? Anything happens in an elimination, I will.

Willie Geist (33:18)

Say Mike and I were just talking about this before coming on the Phillies. You know, they're in it every year.

Joe Scarborough (33:23)

So good. And they're so great every year.

Willie Geist (33:26)

And yet in the playoffs, they have just started. I mean, the Dodgers might just be inevitable. They're just so good.

Joe Scarborough (33:31)

Yeah.

Willie Geist (33:31)

Last night in the ninth that. That reveals their issues with the bullpen. Like, that's. That's the concern. But they just. They just find ways to win.

Mike Barnacle (33:38)

The Phillies top three in the order. 1, 2, 3. Have done zero for this team. If they bounce back, the Phillies will bounce back. But 1, 2, 3.

Joe Scarborough (33:46)

And. And what about. Let's talk about the brewers again. Here's a team that, again, Yelich plays for the Brewers. That's all I can tell you. I just know it's a team that does everything right. Willie, they are an extraordinary team, and they are beating a really good Chicago Cubs team right now and making it look easy.

Jonathan Lemire (34:04)

Yeah, the Cubs were great this year. It's just that they were playing a division with the brewers, who were the best team in baseball, and they're showing it now. Sometimes it takes until October for this kind of showcase for a team like this, and the country wakes up and sees just how good they are. Somebody write to me, say you think the reason that you guys say the brewers have flown under the radar because all you talk about is the Yankees and the rest could be. That's fair.

Joe Scarborough (34:27)

That's fair. That's very true.

Jonathan Lemire (34:29)

Under the radar. No more, though. The Brewers.

Joe Scarborough (34:31)

So, Mike, here's a lineup. Who do you like?

Mike Barnacle (34:34)

I like the Brewers.

Joe Scarborough (34:36)

All the way. Going all the way.

Mike Barnacle (34:37)

Yeah, I think they're the best team in baseball. They're managed by one of the best managers in baseball. You talk about a guy who doesn't get much publicity, much notice. I mean, he was Craig Counsel's bench coach. For several years he was Craig Counsel's manager coach at Notre Dame. And now he took Craig Counsel's job.

Jon Meacham (34:56)

Is that what the baseball gods say?

Joe Scarborough (34:58)

The baseball gods. That's what they have decreed. They have decreed it. So let's talk NFL really quickly, an incredible ending. John Lemire last night in Jacksonville, where a couple of stumbles lead to Cincinnati, I mean, lead to Kansas City Chiefs. Pablo's Kansas City Chiefs, who he still is riding out, scrawling in his Mel Gibson type conspiracy theory way, is the best team in the NFL. They're 2 and 3.

Willie Geist (35:22)

Yeah, my concerns are very raised about Pablo.

Joe Scarborough (35:24)

I know he needs. We thought they were by this week.

Willie Geist (35:27)

And then it turns out they played Monday night and they lost in tough, in tough fashion. Look, I mean, they've earned the benefit of the doubt, the Chiefs. I'm not going to bury them just yet, but they do seem off. You know, Mahomes throws the bad pick six. You know, they give up the wild Trevor Lawrence run there at the end. That's a huge, that's also probably the biggest win for the Jacksonville Jaguars franchise in many years.

Joe Scarborough (35:47)

Oh, my God.

Willie Geist (35:47)

Playoff run with Blake Bortles.

Joe Scarborough (35:49)

Yeah. I've got to say also, Willie, just a story that we all got on the set going, what in the world? Mark Sanchez. Okay, well, the pictures, the pictures that are coming out of what he did to that poor man, what's going on? I mean, it's, wow, the shock.

Jonathan Lemire (36:08)

It gets the headliners. Mark Sanchez stabbed in Indianapolis. You go, that's terrible. What happened. He was a victim of a crime. And then these details come out of what he did, allegedly to this truck driver who was working a night shift trying to, you know, clean out grease from hotels. And everyone you hear from, everyone you talk to said it's completely out of character for who Mark Sanchez is. So I don't know what happened, but my gosh, it's truly, truly awful what he's alleged to have done.

Joe Scarborough (36:35)

Yeah, well, Fox Sports analyst and former NFL quarterback, as we were saying, Mark Sanchez is now facing a felony charge following a violent altercation with a 69 year old truck driver over the weekend in Indianapolis.

Mika Brzezinski (36:48)

Prosecutors say the upgraded charge of battery resulting in serious bodily injury was added after learning more about the extent of the injuries suffered by the driver. Police say an argument over parking escalated into a physical fight which led to Sanchez being stabbed multiple times. The video obtained by the New York Post appears to show Sanchez walking away from the scene with a bloodied shirt in a statement on his behalf. Sanchez's brother Nick wrote in part, this has been a deeply distressing time for everyone involved, adding, mark remains under medical care for the serious injuries he sustained and is focused on his recovery as the legal process continues.

Joe Scarborough (37:34)

And we're not, we are not showing a picture of the truck driver. It's we saw the New York Post. He's just brutalized the truck driver has.

Mika Brzezinski (37:45)

Filed a separate lawsuit against Sanchez and Fox Sports alleging he sustained permanent injuries. Okay, we've got a lot more news to get to as well, including the continuation of the government shutdown, the president saying he's talked to Democrats, Democrats saying no, he hasn't. We'll figure out what's happening. And also the impact on the FAA causing massive delays. We'll be right back.

Nicole Wallace (38:12)

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The American the American people are basically.

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Telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

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Mika Brzezinski (39:17)

Welcome back. Federal Aviation Administration officials say staffing shortages are causing widespread delays at airports across the country. According to flight more than 4,000 flights were delayed yesterday, with the heaviest impacts in Denver, Newark and Las Vegas. In California, the Hollywood Burbank Airport's control tower went unmanned for several hours, forcing others.

Joe Scarborough (39:44)

Is that bad? Is that bad?

Mika Brzezinski (39:47)

Nobody just showed up forcing other facilities to handle traffic remotely.

Joe Scarborough (39:53)

I mean, it's one thing if you're down like two servers at Dunkin Donuts. It's another thing if nobody shows up at a control tower in Los Angeles, one of the busiest Dunkin Donuts. Or at Dunkin Donuts, exactly.

Mika Brzezinski (40:06)

The FAA said outgoing flights there were delayed by more than two hours on average. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy warned the ongoing government shutdown is adding immense stress to what is already a high pressure job for controllers. He also mentioned there has been inflation, a slight uptick in controllers calling out sick as for the shutdown, the Senate yesterday rejected both Democratic and Republican funding bills for a fifth time. The House remains out of session after Speaker Mike Johnson canceled votes, saying the chamber has done its job in passing.

Joe Scarborough (40:42)

No, no, no. He doesn't want these. He doesn't want Republicans around. He does not want House members around. Willie, why? Well, there are a couple reasons. If the House members, they swear we've heard about the Epstein thing, they'll have enough votes to release.

Mika Brzezinski (41:01)

They'd be good at, because that's one thing.

Joe Scarborough (41:04)

But I'm starting to think more and more that he doesn't want him around because he has such a small majority. They're going to say, listen, there are a lot of Republicans that are in districts where their people are going to start feeling the pain. Marjorie Taylor Greene, we're going to show a quote from her. She's up in Dalton, Georgia. I know Dalton, Georgia, very well, spent all my summers up in Dalton, Georgia. Let me tell you something. You cut Medicaid funding in Dalton, Georgia. You cut Medicaid funding, you know, in between the Dalton, Chattanooga sort of, you.

Jon Meacham (41:38)

Know, Walker County, Catoosa County, Sea Rock.

Joe Scarborough (41:41)

City, Ruby Falls, all of those things, you're going to have a lot of rural hospitals hurting. You're going to have a lot of nursing homes hurting. You're going to have a lot of, lot of young Georgians, kids not getting the type of care they need to get. Like, that's why Mike Johnson doesn't want Republicans in town, because their constituents are getting hurt. And you look at all of the people in districts that Harris won, and, you know, Republicans have a lot of reasons to actually vote with Democrats here and bring back some of these cuts.

Jonathan Lemire (42:20)

And talk about an interesting bellwether, Marjorie Taylor Greene, saying to Republicans, guys, this isn't good for us. We want to expand those Medicaid benefits. My constituents, like the Affordable Care act that allows them to have health care, you're taking that away from them. This is bad, says Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Jon Meacham (42:37)

That district is a really interesting microcosm of what's happened in the country, because when I was growing up right across the Tennessee state line, it was a secure Democratic seat, solid Democratic seat. Absolutely. And then in 1992, a guy named Pat Buchanan does extremely well up there in the primaries against Bush 41.

Joe Scarborough (42:59)

Right.

Jon Meacham (42:59)

And now it's this, you know, deep red district. But with this, you know, they need government.

Joe Scarborough (43:05)

Well, I mean, it's, it's like my district, it's in northwest Florida. It was a Democratic district from reconstruction up until 1994. But man, you know, when I campaigned, I didn't go to the Republican meetings first. I went to the Ross Perot United We Stand meetings first and nailed down my base there. Then I nailed down the, as I called it, the wine and cheese Republicans. And then I had. That's what a lot of these districts are. They are conservative, but they are populist. And the people in those districts need. Their parents, need Medicaid funding, their children need Medicaid funding. And more important than that, even if they're not on Medicaid, the health care facilities they go to are overwhelmingly dependent on Medicaid. So they're having to shut down parts of their hospitals, they're having to fire staff, they're having to get rid of pediatricians, they're having to get rid of the people who take care of their parents in the later years of their life. This is bad news for Republicans. A trillion dollars slashed from health care funding to give trillion dollars in, in tax cuts to Elon Musk and the richest people in the world.

Willie Geist (44:27)

Yeah, it's so easy to just take the Beltway perspective and who's up, who's down politically. And it's important to remember the real people who are being involved by this, whether they live in blue districts or red districts or swing districts. And you're absolutely right. We know how underwater the so called one big beautiful bill is right now. There's a lot of messaging wars in terms of the shutdown. But at the end of the day, Republicans do control all three, three branches of government. Odds are they're gonna take a lot of the blame. Mike And I also think it's not a helpful look when the House speaker keeps Republicans away. They can't do their job. First of all, I think it's going to be more of a storyline that there's a district in Arizona that does not have representation in Congress right now, just constituent services. They do not have a congresswoman because Mike Johnson won't seat her because of all this and because of the Epstein matter and just want to keep Republicans at home. That's going to make people think, wait, they're abandoning me.

Mike Barnacle (45:17)

You know, the sub lead in this story. If you had newspapers still. We still have a few newspapers, but the sublead would be what you just said. They need government. Republicans need government as well as Democrats, especially Republicans, as Joe just explained, who depend on Medicaid, who depend on traveling and get covered by the ACA and are worried about their premiums going up and things. They're not Republicans or Democrats when it comes to health care. And the fact that it's been avoided linking the two partially is a result of Johnson decided not to have Republicans hanging around Washington because they would be forced to talk about their constituents when asked.

Jonathan Lemire (45:58)

So, Jim Vande Hei, you're there in Washington watching how this all plays out. The Marjorie Taylor Greene element is fascinating, calling for an extension of those Obamacare subsidies. How do you see this fever breaking if you see it breaking? Donald Trump expressed yesterday, you know, he changes from day to day, but some willingness to negotiate a little bit. Where is the room for negotiation here?

Mike Barnacle (46:21)

I mean, it has to be around those subsidies, right? And Republicans don't want to do it. And I think Democrats feel they probably do want to do a deal, but the leadership is under so much pressure because the base just feels like they're weak and inept and that this is their one chance to actually make a stand against the president. So I think this, this could drag on a little bit longer than people realize. And I think one of the ticking time bombs of American politics right now is health care. You're seeing a glimpse, you're only seeing a glimpse of it right now because you have these Medicaid cuts that are going to kick in that obviously affects people who are either in a bad place in life or not making that much money. You have these Obamacare subsidies that are the price of your premium is about to go up. And then anybody who's getting employer based health care, there's already been reports out there. I was just talking to one of the biggest insurers. The average premium is going to go up 18% just because people need more care. I'm in the middle of budgeting at Axios. Ours is going up way more than 18%. So then when you're an employer, you have to think about, okay, do we eat all of that or do you have to pass it on to your employees? If you do pass it on to your employees, they're having to pay more out of pocket ultimately for health care. So this is a huge problem. And part of it is just the nature of having this like partially private, partially public health care system that we have that's growing insanely expensive and insanely inefficient. And I think this is just a taste of it. And I think for Republicans, especially if you're in a tight district and you're someone like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who there's this strain of MAGA that is kind of purist in its MAGA feelings, which is, hey, we got elected by helping people who were in the working class and helping people who were kind of forgotten by the Republican Party. And now that we're in power, it seems like we're forgetting them again. So they're really trying to hold their feet to the fire. And I think this comes through with Medicaid cuts, especially in places where that's really propping up the Medicare, the medical system.

Joe Scarborough (48:20)

Well, and that's the thing again, it's not just if Marjorie Taylor Greene's constituents are on Medicaid or not. It's not just if a Republican in upstate New York's constituents are all on Medicaid. The hospitals are overwhelmingly dependent on that funding, and that funding has been slashed. So you have hospital, I know this works. You have hospital administrators calling you up going, hey, can you come into my office? I need to show you what we're going to have to close down if these cuts go through and suddenly you see that your constituents are going to get substandard health care. Because there are some people that are, you know, trying, trying to make this point.

Mika Brzezinski (49:05)

But what's the money being used for?

Joe Scarborough (49:06)

I, I, yeah, and the money's being used, of course, here money. This is what Bill Clinton did to us in 95 and 96. The money's being used for tax cuts for the rich. And yeah, it's not, there's not a stronger argument I can think of in American politics than they're slashing your children and your parents health care to pay for tax cuts for the rich, for Elon Musk and for the richest billionaires in Silicon Valley. I just want to circle back really quickly because we've been talking about this some, but I don't think people are paying attention to it enough. Yes, of course we're talking about public health care. We're talking about Medicaid and Medicare. But what you touched on, I want to touch on again. Private health care insurance is exploding. Not only is it exploding, people are feeling it. There's a real crisis out there. You know, we always talked about how in Canada, oh, we don't want, we don't want nationalized health care because it takes six months to get the doctor or the procedure you want. That's now happening in some cases with private health care where they'll deny the, deny, deny, they'll finally approve and then they'll come back with a denial letter and you just keep going around in circles to try to get to see the doctor. You want to go see private health care insurance, the exploding cost of it, along With Medicaid, Medicare, these other issues, those are going to combine for a toxic mix on the campaign trail in the coming months and years, aren't they?

Mike Barnacle (50:37)

Yeah. And again, it goes back to what you were talking about, experience and competence. Right. We have this bloated, complicated, way too expensive healthcare care system that is really one of the most bureaucratic, almost unexplainable systems and feels unfixable. Well, the only way you fix it is actually having people who have authentic expertise who take this and try to figure out, like, how do you.

Joe Scarborough (50:59)

And who do we have? We have RFK Jr. Who's declaring a war on vaccines. That's who we have. Jim. I'm sorry, go ahead. But instead of having an expert that can to drive down prices, we have RFK Jr. There at HHS.

Mike Barnacle (51:17)

Right. And like, aspirationally, there's many components of the MAHA movement that make a ton of sense. People should live healthier. They should be thinking about what's in their food. But you also have a very sick population. Just look at the numbers. It is what it is. And I've experienced it. My wife has had a lot of different health issues. And we have all of the benefits. We have Blue Cross, Blue Shield. We know doctors. We can do whatever we want. And it's still a terrible system. It's still a terribly inefficient system. So that poor person who's on Medicaid who only has one hospital to go to, that's not just, oh, it's a political topic. It's their damn life. Right. It's whether or not they can get the medicine that they need, whether they can get the treatment that they need. If they can't get to the hospital, it's not close enough. They might not go at all. They don't go, they die. And that's why competence matters. And thinking about these topics and the complexity of it matters. And so this, whatever this is another political fireworks show. It'll be resolved like every other shutdown. But I think the reality of the health care system is really coming into full focus. And it comes into full focus when you don't get something you need or what you need cost a hell of a lot more than you can afford.

Joe Scarborough (52:21)

Well, even after this is resolved, health care is going to remain a massive growing crisis.

Mika Brzezinski (52:27)

Yes. Axios co founder and CEO Jim Vande Hei, thank you very much. We'll be watching the latest episode of the Axios show, which came out this morning. And we which Jim sits down with New York Times bestselling author and motivational speaker Mel Robbins.

Joe Scarborough (52:44)

Coming up, we have motivational speaker Jon Meacham here. Motivate us.

Mika Brzezinski (52:49)

I think I like Mel Robbins.

Joe Scarborough (52:51)

Let them what motivational story you have.

Jon Meacham (52:57)

This morning when you have Reinhold Niebuhr.

Joe Scarborough (52:59)

Yeah.

Jon Meacham (53:00)

And James K. Pole.

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