Israel's strike in Doha upends Gaza war ceasefire talk

Summary

Morning Joe – Episode Summary

Date: September 10, 2025
Episode Title: "Israel's strike in Doha upends Gaza war ceasefire talk"
Hosts: Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Willie Geist
Notable Guests: David Ignatius (Washington Post), David Rhodes, David Drucker, Dr. Martin West (Harvard Graduate School of Education)

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on the dramatic escalation in the Gaza conflict following an unprecedented Israeli airstrike in Doha, Qatar’s capital, and its implications for US-Israel relations, ongoing ceasefire negotiations, and regional stability. The show also analyzes a major development in the Russia-Ukraine war—Poland downing Russian drones—considered the first direct NATO military response. Other major discussion points include the sharp drop in US student test scores and a quick detour into baseball and media industry stories.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Israeli Airstrike in Doha: End of Gaza Ceasefire Hopes

• Background: Israeli jets struck Hamas leaders in Doha, Qatar—disrupting ceasefire talks mediated by Qatar, widely viewed as the linchpin for negotiations between Israel, the US, and Hamas.
• Political Ramifications:
  • Netanyahu’s motivation is scrutinized: Is the military escalation genuine counter-terrorism, or political survival?
  • The US (Trump administration) was notified by military channels, not diplomatically by Israel. Trump tried to warn Qatar but failed to prevent the strike.
  • Qatar condemned Israel's actions as destabilizing and suspended mediation efforts.
• Escalation in Israeli Conduct:
  • Netanyahu continues to expand military action, targeting not only Gaza but also Syria and exerting pressure region-wide.
  • Joe Scarborough [03:51]:

    "You need to take Israel out of so many of these headlines and just put Netanyahu. Because you look at what Netanyahu has done...this is a guy who is just going to war with absolutely everyone."

• Consequences for Hostages:
  • The strike effectively ends discussions for the immediate release of hostages.
  • David Ignatius [08:08]:

    "...the deal that, as I say, was bombed out of existence would have involved immediate moves toward release the hostages."

• US-Israel Relationship Strains:
  • Trump’s public frustration echoes previous Biden-Netanyahu tensions, indicating bipartisan American exasperation with Israeli unilateralism.
  • Willie Geist [11:48]:

    "Neither presidents will like the comparison, but Donald Trump and Joe Biden seem to be in the same exact position with Benjamin Netanyahu."

2. Netanyahu, Trump, and US-Israel Dynamics

• Recurring Theme:
  • Netanyahu reportedly acts for political survival, undermining allies’ efforts for de-escalation, regardless of US president.
  • Trump's leeway for Netanyahu is greater than Biden's, as observed by the panel.
  • Joe Scarborough [13:32]:

    "What started as a very warm, cozy relationship... had deteriorated because the Biden administration was willing to put some teeth behind its requests."

• Diminishing American Leverage:
  • Younger Americans especially are cooling on the US-Israel relationship.
  • Willie Geist [15:16]:

    "The support is just absolutely bleeding for Israel and the United States, especially when you look at people under 40, under 45. It's stark."

• No Real Break Expected:
  • Despite tension, a true rupture between the US and Israel is considered highly unlikely.
  • David Ignatius [16:46]:

    "I don't think there's likely to be a real break between Trump and Netanyahu, US and Israel. That would strike me as highly unlikely."

  • Practical Consequence:
    • Ceasefire negotiations now appear dead.
    • American diplomatic influence in the Middle East diminished following the Doha strike.

3. Poland Downs Russian Drones – NATO Directly Engaged

• Incident:
  • Poland shot down Russian drones that repeatedly violated its airspace during attacks on Ukraine—a first direct NATO intervention in the conflict since Russia’s full-scale invasion in 2022.
• Implications:
  • Russian provocations are interpreted as both testing NATO’s resolve and Trump’s promised tough stance.
  • David Ignatius [20:40]:

    "Russia has been increasingly pushing at the edges... this time they shot down some of the Russian drones... in coordination with NATO. This was treated as an attack on a NATO state."

• Critique of US Response:
  • The Trump administration is seen as unprepared or unwilling to devise a decisive response to Russian escalation.
  • David Ignatius [22:14]:

    "What I'm hearing from the White House is uncertainty, vague threats of further sanctions against Russia, but no decisive action."

  • Willie Geist [23:11]:

    "If they walk away, then Donald Trump will be remembered as the man who not only lost Ukraine, but lost Central Europe..."

  • The Senate is urged to act unilaterally if the White House hesitates.

4. Other Major Segments

A. Student Test Scores Plummet

• Report:
  • Eighth and twelfth grade test scores (math, reading, science) have fallen to the lowest levels in decades.
  • Key stats: 45% below basic in math, 32% below basic in reading, 38% in science.
• Causes:
  • Panel and guest Dr. Martin West attribute the drop to factors predating COVID, namely widespread smartphone/social media adoption, growing socio-economic challenges, and declining school accountability.
  • Dr. Martin West [44:06]:

    "The declines really began in the middle of the 2010s, so we should be looking for factors that predate the pandemic... smartphone, the emergence of social media targeting youth, and the distraction that they've become for American students over the past decade."

• Implications:
  • Growing educational disparities driven by “fanning out” achievement; high performers hold steady, low performers slide.
  • Joe Scarborough [45:16]:

    "We have an increasing share of students who are really graduating from high school, very ill prepared for not just college, but really the world of work."

• What Worked in the Past:
  • Dr. West suggests reviving bipartisan accountability and standards that raised scores between the 1990s and mid-2010s.
  • Dr. Martin West [48:02]:

    "Maybe right now we need to look at what has worked in the past."

B. Baseball Pennant Race Update

• Brief, light-hearted interlude covering the Yankees/Red Sox race and the injuries affecting teams this season.

C. Media/Pop Culture Bit: The Howard Stern Prank

• The group banters about a Howard Stern show stunt that fooled several news organizations—including the AP—demonstrating the pitfalls of modern news cycles.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|-------------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:51 | Joe Scarborough | "You need to take Israel out of so many of these headlines and just put Netanyahu. Because...this is a guy who is just going to war with absolutely everyone." | | 08:08 | David Ignatius | "...the deal that, as I say, was bombed out of existence would have involved immediate moves toward release the hostages." | | 11:48 | Willie Geist | "Neither presidents will like the comparison, but Donald Trump and Joe Biden seem to be in the same exact position with Benjamin Netanyahu." | | 13:32 | Joe Scarborough | "...the Biden administration was willing to put some teeth behind its requests... so far, this is nothing Trump has been willing to do." | | 15:16 | Willie Geist | "The support is just absolutely bleeding for Israel and the United States, especially when you look at people under 40, under 45. It's stark." | | 16:46 | David Ignatius | "I don't think there's likely to be a real break between Trump and Netanyahu, US and Israel. That would strike me as highly unlikely." | | 20:40 | David Ignatius | "Russia has been increasingly pushing at the edges... in coordination with NATO. This was treated as an attack on a NATO state." | | 22:14 | David Ignatius | "What I'm hearing from the White House is uncertainty, vague threats of further sanctions against Russia, but no decisive action." | | 23:11 | Willie Geist | "If they walk away, then Donald Trump will be remembered as the man who not only lost Ukraine, but lost Central Europe..." | | 44:06 | Dr. Martin West | "... declines really began in the middle of the 2010s... smartphone, the emergence of social media targeting youth, and the distraction that they've become..." |

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & News Rundown: [01:00] – [05:48]
• Israel-Doha Strike Analysis: [05:48] – [16:46]
• US-Israel Relationship, Netanyahu’s Calculations: [13:19] – [16:46]
• Poland Shoots Down Russian Drones/NATO Escalation: [18:48] – [23:11]
• US Political Response to Russia-Ukraine: [20:40] – [23:11]
• Student Test Scores Segment: [42:15] – [49:18]

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Conclusion

This special Morning Joe episode interrogates the collapse of Gaza ceasefire prospects after Israel’s strike in Doha—tying the event to Netanyahu’s political calculus, the deepening rift with its US ally, and the resultant loss of American influence in the region. The team draws parallels with the apparently stagnant US response to Russian escalation in Europe and examines a burgeoning education crisis at home, emphasizing socio-economic and technological shifts. The episode is freewheeling yet urgent in tone, marked by sobering analysis and direct commentary, with moments of levity around baseball and media stunts serving as a needed offset.

Transcript

[Joe Scarborough]

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[Mike Allen]

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[Willie Geist]

I'm not thrilled about the whole situation. It's not a good situation, But I will say this. We want the hostages back, but we are not thrilled about the way that went down today.

[David Rhodes]

President Trump yesterday, commenting on the Israeli strikes in Qatar, which targeted Hamas leaders, will bring you the latest on the attacks and look at whether the strikes ended any chance of Gaza peace talks for the foreseeable future. Also ahead, a potential major escalation in Eastern Europe as Poland shot down Russian drones that were involved in attacks in Ukraine. The question is, how will Vladimir Putin respond to the action by a NATO member? Plus, we'll go through the massive revision from the Bureau of Labor Statistics showing the US Economy added far fewer jobs from April of last year through March of this year. And we'll dig into the alarming new data on student test scores, with some teenagers performing at historic lows.

[Willie Geist]

We talked about that the other day, Willie. Math scores, reading score, just terrible for 12th graders. Just, just all time lows. We're going to be talking about that today.

[Mike Allen]

Trending in a bad direction already. And then Covid really gutted the scores even further.

[Willie Geist]

Really did. We got a big series this weekend. We're now tied up, tied, tied up. And you predicted this at the beginning of the week. You said we're playing the tough teams. You guys are going to be playing the A's and everything else. And the way it looks, we're going to probably end up, you know, tied going into what's going to have to Be the series of the year.

[Mike Allen]

Yeah. Yankees and Red Sox now tied, both three games behind the Blue Jays. Yankees in the seventh inning last night. Gave up nine runs before recording it out. Got blown out absolutely. By the Tigers. So, yeah, we got to finish the series with the Tigers, who obviously are a great team, and then go to Fenway this weekend for what will be a pivotal series.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, I mean, you guys have been really hot after the series with us. Had a speed bump last night, but you guys have been playing well. We haven't been playing as well, but, you know, I spend all the year telling you Jack and everybody else, it's early, it's early, it's early. I looked at the schedule last night, I was like, whoa, I know there are a couple of series left. When this really is a time where every single inning counts, like on whether you're going to get into the playoffs or not.

[Mike Allen]

Yeah, like two and a half weeks left in the season and you've got the two of us, Yankees, Red Sox, the Mariners are right there. You've got the Guardians and the Rangers lurking. Even the Rays are hanging around. Oh, I know it could go sideways just as quickly as you're comfortable were.

[Willie Geist]

The Rays were on it. And we fear the Rays. I mean, I just fear the race and for good reason. They were on like a 8, 9 game win streak and then had a little bump in the road themselves. Pretty good team. David, before we introduce everybody else, just the news is just again, it's almost feel like you need to take Israel out of so many of these headlines and just put Netanyahu. Because you look at what Netanyahu has done, you look at his attacks into Syria, you look at his attacks everywhere. I mean, and this is a guy who is just going to war with absolutely everyone. And, you know, most of the people, a lot of people inside of Israel have been saying for a long time he will never stop fighting because the second he does, his government falls to the ground.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's the question. And it is about Netanyahu. He has been incredibly aggressive here. There's been moments for ceasefires and he's scuttled those talks. And yet critics say he's simply doing this to stay in power. So it was an amazing, unprecedented thing to have Israel strike Doha. That's not happening, by the way.

[Willie Geist]

Doha. We all have had issues with Doha through the years. Make no mistake, though. They right now, they are a close ally of the Trump administration and somebody that this administration, past administrations, have depended on to be able to communicate with our enemies.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yes, the US has asked Doha to have Hamas. This was years before October 7th, but those Hamas leaders were meeting to talk about the current Trump administration proposal for a ceasefire. That's why they were there. And Netanyahu chose to strike them.

[David Rhodes]

So let's get into it. We have two more Davids with us. Columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius, Morning of a Thousand Davids, senior writer for the Dispatch and a columnist for Bloomberg Opinion. David Drucker is with us.

[Willie Geist]

Some very unimaginative parents with names, decades, so much. David's a great name.

[David Rhodes]

The White House is rebuking Israel for its attack in Qatar's capital. Yesterday, the Israeli military carried out an airstrike in Doha targeting the leaders of Hamas. While some Hamas members died, the terrorist group says its senior figures were not killed in the attack. A member of Qatar's internal security forces was also killed and a number of civilians were injured. Qatari officials criticized Israel for the strike, calling it, quote, an attempt to destabilize regional security. The move now hampers the diplomatic efforts to reach a ceasefire in the Gaza war as Qatar has been a key mediator in the discussions. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the strike was in response to Monday's shooting at a bus stop in Jerusalem. Hamas has claimed responsibility for that attack. Netanyahu also made it clear the strike in Doha was initiated and conducted by Israel. President Trump posted on Truth Social that he was notified of the attack by the US Military, not Israel, shortly before it happened, and tried to warn Qatar, adding, this does not advance Israel or America's goals.

[Willie Geist]

David Ignatius, this is, as we said before, just continued escalation, continued fighting well past the time again that military leaders and intel leaders in Israel say that anything positive can happen as they move forward. We were at diminishing returns a year ago, according to them, not according to Western news outlets, not according to Israel's enemies, according to Israel's military and intel leaders. Take, take us, take us. Give us the 30,000 foot view not just of the attack yesterday, but also Netanyahu attacking the new government in Syria, Netanyahu in Iran, Netanyahu all across the region. It seems that this, he has decided to conduct an eternal war in Israel, all at a time when his political rivals and most foreign policy observers say he's doing it to stay in power.

[David Ignatius]

Joe I think this is about how the war is going to be terminated. Netanyahu increasingly believes that a military end of the war is the only thing that is in his government's interest in Israel's interest. And so the Israeli military is moving forward in Gaza City, in effect reinvading parts of Gaza, pushing toward a forced in surrender, in effect, of Hamas fighters there. Meanwhile, the United States has continued to pursue negotiations. And what's haunting about the attack yesterday is that these Hamas leaders were gathered to discuss whether to accept what President Trump on Sunday called a final proposal for settling the conflict that would have involved immediate release of all 48 hostages being held in Gaza would have been begun the release of a thousand or more Palestinian prisoners in Israel, along with a much greater role for the United States in thinking about the day after. So that's the negotiating plan that was blown out of the, out of the building in Gutter where these people were meeting. I can't imagine that a negotiating process will continue. And more to the point, Gutter's role as the principal way of passing messages between the US And Israel and Hamas, at least for now, is over. Qatari officials told me that yesterday and their prime minister, Sheikh Mohammed said the same thing. So we're entering this endgame period in the Gaza war in which Israel seems to be relying almost entirely now on military power and walking away from what had been a real effort by the United States, by President Trump to get a final diplomatic solution. So we have the two allies split free hostages. Well, and to free the hostages. That was part of the deal, Joe. The deal that, as I say, was bombed, bombed out of existence would have involved immediate moves toward release the hostages.

[Mike Allen]

So, David Rode, that raises the question now, what's left for Netanyahu if he's literally blown up the diplomatic negotiations? Israel not alone in being skeptical that Hamas is a credible partner in that. We can put that to the side for just a moment. But if not diplomatic negotiations trying to be brokered by President Trump through Steve Witkoff, then what are the options? Number one. And then the other piece of it is, from the American point of view, what does President Trump do about this? He clearly was not happy yesterday.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yes. So to Bibi and his supporters, it's, there's a military solution. You're just going to wipe out Hamas. You're going to defeat them militarily. The question is, there are still 2 million Palestinians living in Gaza. Where do they go? How are they governed? And how do you not create another generation of militants? At least according to, you know, Palestinian health authorities, 60,000 Palestinians have died. You know, you raised the recent reports by, you know, international organizations that there is famine now in Gaza City. So the idea that you eliminate Hamas and this whole problem Goes away is, according to critics, unrealistic. So it's an extraordinary moment. He thinks he can win militarily. And the question is, what does President Trump do now? This was a defiant move they did. Our colleagues Courtney Kuby and Tom Winter were told that the US Was informed about the strike, but there was no request for permission. It just happened.

[Willie Geist]

Well, and David Drucker. Neither presidents will like the comparison, but Donald Trump and Joe Biden seem to be in the same exact position with Benjamin Netanyahu. Joe Biden daily would grouse about Netanyahu, would call him, would push him, would cajole him, would threaten him, would do everything he could do to try to get the hostages home, to bring an end to the war, get the hostages home. Now we have Donald Trump, who supposedly was going to be in a position to have an impact on Netanyahu. And things have actually gotten worse. If you look at the reports of famine in Gaza, if you look at just the horrific treatment of the Palestinians in Gaza, if you look at the attacks on Syria, which was certainly against President Trump's wishes as he tries to build that government into a functioning government, you look at Qatar. Trump and his family are close allies both politically and personally with Qatar. It's got to be shocking to Donald Trump that he finds himself in the same position as Joe Biden, an American president who Netanyahu constantly thumbs up, thumbs, you know, his nose in his face.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, it may be, but Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump have a. Have a different relationship at this point than Joe Biden and Benjamin Netanyahu had at the end of the Biden presidency.

[David Ignatius]

Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

What started out as a very warm, cozy relationship sort of built over many years had deteriorated because the Biden administration was willing to put some teeth behind its requests. Right. The withholding of certain kinds of weapons, the withholding of certain kinds of diplomatic cover. So far, this is nothing that Trump has been willing to do. And, you know, I looked at that lengthy truth social post, and I wondered exactly what the president was saying, how much of it was trying to satisfy multiple audiences with different kinds of comments that when youthat when you pull them apart and look at them individually, really conflicted with each other. I think the question is, is Donald Trump actually frustrated with Benjamin Netanyahu? This may be Ignatius territory, or is this some good cop, bad cop? There is some diplomatic blowback because of the strike yesterday, but the president has shown an extraordinary amount of patience with Netanyahu's strategy of using the military action to completely decapitate Hamas. You Know, I think the broader question for Israel is whether playing this short game, knowing that they've got another three and a half years of Trump in the White House to allow them to accomplish things in the region militarily that the next president, Republican or Democrat, may not allow them or may not go along with. Because when you look at the politics of Israel right now in the United States, it's much. It's much less supportive, broadly speaking, particularly on the left, but even on the right, than it was for so long.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, the support is just absolutely bleeding for Israel and the United States, especially when you look at people under 40, under 45. It's stark. And for those of us who have supported Israel our entire adult lives, it is very concerning what Benjamin Netanyahu and his continued actions are doing. And I must say also his complete disregard for the hostages, his complete disregard for the hostage families, his complete disregard for the pain that they're enduring, even as Hamas officials rushed up to Qatar based on Donald Trump's demand to bring to an end this war and to get the hostages home immediately. And, of course, they respond to Donald Trump, do what he says, they go to Qatar, and then they get attacked by Israel. So if you're a member of a hostage's family, you have to know that things likely only get worse from here because of the actions of yesterday. So, David Ignatius, why don't you sort through it for us with Donald Trump on the good cop, bad cop routine and his relationship with Benjamin Netanyahu. Does Donald Trump, does he sort of quietly give a nod and a wink to what Netanyahu is doing, or is he genuinely frustrated?

[David Ignatius]

So, Joe, I don't think there's likely to be a real break between Trump and Netanyahu, US And Israel. That would strike me as highly unlikely. But at the same time, I don't think we should see these actions as being in coordination. Trump seemed to me to be genuinely angry at the Israeli strike. Yes, the US Got notification, but I understand it came from our own military assets that saw Israeli jets in the air in the vicinity of Qatar when the US Tried to inform the Qatari officials that the Israelis were striking. Soon, the call, I'm told, happened as explosions outside from the bombs were rocking Doha, the capital. I think part of what upsets Trump is that Qatar has acted as an intermediary for Trump, not just in negotiations with Gaza, but on a number of the other areas where he so fervently wants to be a peacemaker. The deal between Rwanda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo was brokered in part by the deal between Armenia and Azerbaijan, where they had both leaders of the White House. Was brokered partly by gutter. The cease fire that ended the 12 day war with Iran. Brokered partly by gutter. So there has been a close relationship, especially between Steve Witkoff, the Trump administration's emissary to the Middle east, and the Qatari officials. So that's part of what got blown up yesterday. And I think Trump was angry about it. In terms of where this goes, Israel is in the driver's seat. Netanyahu has the troops on the ground. And as I said at the beginning, I think he's going for a military solution. That's what Israeli officials believe in. The Israeli army is exhausted, but I think that's the direction that Netanyahu, whatever Trump thinks, is going to continue.

[Mike Allen]

So from the war in the Middle east to the war in Eastern Europe, an alarming development overnight. Poland says it has shot down Russian drones that violated the country's airspace earlier today, today during an attack on Ukraine. It marks the first time Poland or any NATO member state has directly engaged Russian assets since Vladimir Putin launched his full scale invasion in 2022. Poland's military says the drones were aimed at targets in Ukraine, but repeatedly violated Polish airspace, prompting the response. The incident came just hours after Poland announced it will temporarily close its border with Belarus starting tomorrow as Belarus and Russia conduct major joint military exercises. So, David Rowe, this has been the fear that this war bleeds into further into Eastern Europe beyond the borders of Ukraine. And last night it did into Poland and rallying a response from NATO.

[Joe Scarborough]

I think Putin is testing NATO and I think Putin is testing Trump. It was 19 different incursions. And then NATO worked as it should. What was interesting here was that the polls saw these incursions. There were Dutch fighter jets that joined Polish jets. There were German air defenses that were on the ground and they were armed and ready. So it's a very serious moment. And there was a broader sense, and I'm trying to be fair. There's Trump aides who just felt he would take the presidency and Biden had been so weak and there would be a strong leader. And that is not happening in terms of at least Ukraine and getting Putin to back off and broker a deal. And you could argue also in terms of Netanyahu. So these are two major foreign policy crises for Trump and critics will say failures.

[David Rhodes]

And David Ignatius, you could argue the situation in Ukraine is only getting worse. It continues. And now this incursion into Polish airspace.

[David Ignatius]

So the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tushk described this drone attack as a large scale provocation by Russia. And I think that's exactly what it was. Russia has been increasingly pushing at the edges. There have been other drone over flights prior to overnight. The Poles have mostly let them go, but this time they shot down some of the Russian drones and they responded, as David Rhodes said, in coordination with NATO. This was treated as an attack on a NATO state. So we'll see what comes next. But it's obvious that Russia is pushing the boundaries, not just in Ukraine, where it's launching 800, 900 drones a night, plus ballistic missiles, but now spreading the war to other parts of Europe. Putin thinks he's on a roll and somebody's going to have to stop him in a more dramatic way, I think.

[Willie Geist]

David, what are you hearing from the White House? I mean, again, here we are how many weeks past Anchorage? We're at least two weeks past when Donald Trump said he was going to give Putin two weeks. And things just keep getting worse. The attacks keep getting more harsh from Russia to Ukraine, the killing of Ukrainian citizens, of children, of grandmothers, now attacking Poland, or at least having drones going over the airspace. And as both you and David Rhodes said, purposely provoking NATO. What are you hearing from the White House? When will there be a response to all of this?

[David Ignatius]

What I'm hearing from the White House is uncertainty, vague threats of further sanctions against Russia, but no decisive action. Donald Trump had the wrong theory of the case. I mean, he said repeatedly, and he must have really believed it, that it would be easy to solve this war. His friend Putin would see that with Donald Trump in the White House, it was time to end the war. The opposite has happened. Vladimir Putin does not have an interest in ending the war. He has an interest in winning the war. And I don't think the Trump White House has yet fully accommodated that reality. The Ukrainians have. They're preparing to fight on with help from Europe, if not the United States. But this is really crunch time for the administration. They either completely walk away and say that's it, it's up to Europe, or they get more serious about trying to find ways to help.

[Willie Geist]

Well, and if they walk away, then Donald Trump will be remembered as the man who not only lost Ukraine, but lost Central Europe and possibly, possibly Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, all those. Donald Trump will be remembered as the man who reconstituted the Soviet Union, the old Russian empire, if he doesn't push back now, he said he's going to push back and not allow that to happen. But, you know, it has been several weeks right now. There's also another thing that just has to be said right now. The United States Senate could pass sanctions and they could push sanctions with the number of votes that they have and override any veto from the White House at some point, while Ukrainians die, while Europe is threatened by invading Russian forces, by invading Russian forces, while Europe is threatened, they sit on their hands and say, well, we're just going to wait to see what somebody else is. No, they have. They're the first branch. They're the article one branch. They have the power to stop the Russian invaders. They have the power to protect Western civilization. They have the power to protect democracy and freedom, not only in Ukraine, but in the Baltics and all across Eastern and Central Europe. They have the votes. If the President doesn't want to move on this, the Senate has to move on this or the blood of all of these Ukrainians will be on their hands. And yes, yes, the defeat country that's striving to become a Western democracy, that's reaching their arms out towards us for the freedom that Ronald Reagan and every president before him, from Harry Truman to Ronald Reagan fought for, to give them the freedom when we won the Cold War. They can't sit on their hands anymore. If the President won't move, then the United States Senate needs to move.

[David Rhodes]

The Washington Post's David Ignatius and NBC's David Rhode, thank you both very much for being on this morning. And still ahead on Morning Joe, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick is now suggesting the federal government should get some of the money universities make from.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, seriously, why don't you guys just get a statue of Vladimir Lenin and like, put it in Lafayette Park?

[David Rhodes]

We'll play for you.

[Willie Geist]

This is. This is just pure rank socialism.

[David Rhodes]

Plus, we'll break down the revised jobs data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and dig into what this says about the state of the U.S. economy. And a reminder, the Morning Joe podcast, available each weekday, featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your.

[Willie Geist]

Podcast, by the way. We listen to the podcast. Really? The dog track.

[Mike Allen]

Yeah.

[Willie Geist]

David Road, while he's playing handball with, you know, he's the rec.

[Mike Allen]

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[Willie Geist]

He's got this big specs and he's got the headband, the red, white, blue headband. He's playing handball. He's listening to Morning Joe podcast.

[Mike Allen]

Furry headphones.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah.

[Mike Allen]

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[Joe Scarborough]

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[David Rhodes]

Oh, my gosh. That was amazing.

[Willie Geist]

Wasn't that amazing? That was.

[David Rhodes]

That was so funny.

[Willie Geist]

Wasn't that so well done? Good bit. I mean, Howard wrote. I found out Howard wrote the whole thing.

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, my God.

[Willie Geist]

He actually. He wrote the whole thing. Like, it's so funny when. When news broke and everybody's saying Howard's too woke. Howard's too this how right? They're firing Howard. It's funny. Beth, his wife reportedly got really upset and said, why are people lying about. About you, Howard? And she said. He smiled. He said, we're gonna have some fun with this. And so he wrote the whole thing, gave it to Andy Cohen, and he said, okay, we want to put up Andy 100. We want to screen them. And he wrote the entire thing about Andy going, I understand my demographic is not your demographic, but I'm going to win you over. And it's evidence of that. This was the greatest thing. As evidence of that. Our first guest is going to be Patti LuPone. You know, she doesn't give an answer either. And she tells it.

[David Rhodes]

He nailed it.

[Willie Geist]

Just like Howard, you know? You know, you know, people listening were like, what?

[David Rhodes]

Andy says he was so in character that he could have gone on for hours.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Rhodes]

He was so good.

[Mike Allen]

And he was good.

[Willie Geist]

Andy was so good.

[Mike Allen]

And he sold it.

[David Rhodes]

Sold it.

[Willie Geist]

What was it? AP picked it up and said Stern. A bunch of people picked it up. Well, listen, the Associated Press picked it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ap. Which, by the way, not knocking the ap, but, hey, better to actually get it right than be first. And that's what. That's just where we've been for the past decade or so.

[Joe Scarborough]

But man, just needed to wait.

[Mike Allen]

I will say Andy did a great job, but about 10 seconds and I go, oh, this is a good bit.

[Willie Geist]

Oh, you did? Yeah.

[Mike Allen]

There's no way it's going like this. Maybe I know Andy too well.

[David Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Mike Allen]

You know, Howard wouldn't let it in that way.

[David Rhodes]

Okay. So I actually went on Cohen's radio show on Sirius XM right after it happened.

[Mike Allen]

Nice.

[David Rhodes]

And we talked about it.

[Willie Geist]

Well, let's hear that. Were y' all fooled yesterday?

[David Rhodes]

Oh, my gosh. It crossed the ap, which is wild. I'm dying.

[Willie Geist]

He reported that I was taking over for hours. Yes.

[David Rhodes]

And so I sent it to my producers right away. We have a producers text change. They always double check stuff, right? They've got. I mean, it was a little weird, I have to tell you. They kind of went all the way. I mean, you went on for about 20 minutes, right?

[Joe Scarborough]

Yes.

[David Rhodes]

But then it ended.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, it ended. And they did a review.

[David Rhodes]

Miss that part.

[Willie Geist]

Yes.

[David Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Willie Geist]

Okay.

[David Rhodes]

That's a problem, right?

[Willie Geist]

Exactly.

[David Rhodes]

But it was so you were so good.

[Willie Geist]

Your reaction once y' all figured out it was not dying was very funny.

[David Rhodes]

Oh, my God. Wait.

[Willie Geist]

Yes.

[David Rhodes]

First of all, I need to know, how did. Like, who. Who approached you to do this? Did.

[Willie Geist]

Like Howard. Howard first. Gary did first a couple weeks ago. He goes, we want to do this thing. I said, yeah, I'm in. Great. He goes, you need to make it real. I texted Howard. I said, I'm very excited about it. Then he called, and he was like, look, I want. I said, john's coming with me. He said, oh, I'm so glad John's coming. He goes, you guys have to. Really. I said, well, let me just say, if this were to happen, I would be so excited, but also, it would be so awkward doing this. He said, that's exactly your tone.

[David Rhodes]

Yes.

[Willie Geist]

Do it.

[David Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Willie Geist]

So, yeah.

[David Rhodes]

Did you want a break at any point?

[Willie Geist]

No. No. Oh, we could have kept going for two hours. You know what? They were staring at us, too. So there was. I wouldn't want to stop down, right? Yes.

[David Rhodes]

Could you see Howard as this was happening?

[Willie Geist]

No, Howard was not there. That would have been there.

[Joe Scarborough]

He was there.

[David Rhodes]

That would have. Yeah. That would have been a lot.

[Willie Geist]

Yes.

[David Rhodes]

You know, Howard's wife Beth gave me my cat, Meatball.

[Willie Geist]

O. Oh, really?

[David Rhodes]

Yes.

[Willie Geist]

North Shore animals.

[David Rhodes]

He has six toes. Wow. Yeah. And I hold them every morning when I'm getting ready for work.

[Willie Geist]

Meatball.

[David Rhodes]

I love meatball.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah. So anyway, it always ends at meatball. There's meatball. But as we were all talking, a lot of prominent news organizations picked this up.

[David Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Willie Geist]

I will tell you one person when Mika sent that over, who literally looked at a tight back. He goes, this is bullshit. Yeah. Alex Corson.

[David Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Willie Geist]

So, Alex. So while the AP and I will say a lot of other news organizations. Senate, Mika sent that and said Howard shows over. Alex goes, Alex says, no, no, no, no, no. We're gonna sit on this. I don't believe it. That's pretty good. You and. You and Alex had the bs. You had the Howard detector.

[Mike Allen]

I watched Howard, been listening to him my whole life and know Andy pretty well. I crossed on Instagram and I was like, oh, my gosh. And then the Patti LuPone and the caller who called in outrage felt a little too.

[Willie Geist]

A little too script.

[Mike Allen]

I went, wait a minute. But certainly my first instinct was, what?

[David Rhodes]

Yeah, but you know the players too well.

[Willie Geist]

And Alex, you obviously a huge Broadway fan. Few people know Alex Gorson, a theater major at Cornell. But was it the Patti LuPone reference that gave it away for you. For you to tell Mika? Because he said, do not say this on the air. I don't care if it's the Associated Press.

[Mike Allen]

Well, Patty's not an easy interview, so that might have been a tell. But this is a team effort.

[Joe Scarborough]

I got to put.

[Mike Allen]

I mean, TJ is big Stern fan.

[Joe Scarborough]

Dan.

[Mike Allen]

We all our Danners got up. So we.

[Joe Scarborough]

We paused for a second there.

[David Rhodes]

Strong team.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

We have.

[Willie Geist]

Have a lot of. A lot of huge Stern fans here. So obviously, yeah, the BS detector went up. So what happens at the Associated Press after this happens? Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, no, no. I mean, you work there forever. I've always. I've always. I've always told people like, you know, hey, how were the reporters? Like, ah, they're easy. They were great friends. But I'd see, like, Alan. Alan frown coming. And who was the AP Capitol Hill reporter? I literally, if I saw him coming to the speaker's lobby, I would turn around and run as fast as possible because they're just tough they're just tough.

[Mike Allen]

And tough and good.

[Willie Geist]

Tough, great reporters, no doubt.

[Mike Allen]

We saw it. Mika and I were here on set. We saw it evolve in real time.

[Willie Geist]

They went with it.

[Mike Allen]

They even put a news alert out.

[Willie Geist]

I mean, they were not the only.

[Mike Allen]

Organization to get it right, to be sure. And then they clearly went through it and they rewrote it and they. Look, they owned it. The correction.

[Willie Geist]

Correction.

[Mike Allen]

They updated the story and they put a correction at the end, which is what you need to do. You have to tell your readers, hey, we got this one wrong.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, Variety broke it. I think Variety broke it first, the right way, saying, no, no, no, no. This is all, this is all a gag. Anyway, so really quickly, Willie and I were talking about, I mean, what everybody's going to call the race, the pennant race of our time for wild card to see who's the fourth or fifth best team in the American League. But, but we had a kid pitch last night. 11 strikeouts. We have called him up.

[Mike Allen]

We have seen the future. And his name is apparently. I looked it up. Connolly early, who pitched great last night. They've had a bunch of kids. Mike, who's had to step in Red Sox rotation.

[Joe Scarborough]

A little thin in the 4, 5 slots.

[Mike Allen]

They've had guys step up.

[Willie Geist]

Okay. Mika loves Tolly.

[Mike Allen]

Yeah.

[Willie Geist]

Who looks like he's 48 years old and it makes 42 with the mustache. He says he's 22, but Mika call. She goes, I like dad and I.

[David Rhodes]

Like how excited he gets when things go well. Yeah, he starts getting really like, dysregulated.

[Willie Geist]

But early. In a positive way. But early. Really great. Last night this kid just called up. He kept me up till one o' clock in the morning watching.

[David Rhodes]

Oh my God.

[Joe Scarborough]

I saw the first.

[Mike Allen]

And today with the prize we got back in the Devers trades pitcher Harrison from the Giants. Apparently he's going to pitch part of today's game as well. But there we see it. Yankees and Red Sox tied. The Yankees had a tough seventh inning last night. Happened to be watching that live.

[Willie Geist]

I'm sure I was.

[Mike Allen]

Yeah, the tears wiped them up. That was nine runs before they recorded an out. The sarcastic cheer. The sarcastic cheer from the crowd when they finally got the first out.

[Willie Geist]

That's my new ringtone. They talk about the Nightmare 7. But I will say though, Willie, it is with. With the Yankees and the Red Sox tied. I mean, this is. This is the greatest rivalry in baseball. Tied going into the final week and a half and having a series up at Fenway. This is really. This is. This is what fans, baseball fans dream of up and down the east coast coast every year.

[Mike Allen]

Go back to February spring training. If you could have said mid September, Fenway, Yankees, Red Sox, tied. Of course we'd like to be tied for first place, but we're in the playoff hunt. Mike, this is what you want. This is what I want. This is what fans of both teams want. We're both in it. And that series could swing the whole thing one way or another.

[Willie Geist]

Well, the thing is it's great for baseball. I mean, it is the oldest rivalry. It's the most intense rivalry in Major League Baseball. And you're going to see it winding down to the last week.

[Mike Allen]

We can put this down now.

[Willie Geist]

This background music, this great wallpaper. Mike, can you tell me something? This is Alex informing. This is yet another season where maybe the brewers won a hundred games, but probably not. But you always have one, two, three teams that win 100 games every year. That's not happening anymore. Why? Well, I think a lot of reasons why. First of all, some of the travel schedules, the big teams. Seattle has a good team. Their travel schedule is a nightmare. The pitching, what's happened to pitchers in Major League Baseball over the course of the last six or seven years is really extraordinary. More pitchers are going out now for surgery at younger and younger ages. And they can't figure out how many pitchers do the Yankees and last night I was up with you in the listening in the ninth inning and they went down the list of all of the Red Sox pitchers that are on the il. They named about seven of our. Every team, every starters, every team is that every team. Almost every team Is that velocity.

[David Rhodes]

Yes.

[Willie Geist]

Pedro Martinez has an interesting theory about it. He thinks it's because they tighten their grip on the baseball. You tighten your grip on the baseball and it shoots right through your elbow. Elbow. And if you do it continually which major league pitchers do every fourth or fifth day, you're eventually going to have surgery.

[Mike Allen]

It's the tight grip to get more spin on the ball and then it's the emphasis on just full out velocity every time.

[Joe Scarborough]

And it's an epidemic.

[Mike Allen]

And there's some talk that they're going to have to try to figure out a way to incentivize pitchers to not do that all the time because his injuries keep coming.

[Willie Geist]

I mean, one of the greatest pitchers of our generation, Greg Maddox, pitched 88 mile an hour fastball.

[David Rhodes]

It's about.

[Willie Geist]

And he knew where to place it.

[David Rhodes]

When's dad coming back?

[Willie Geist]

Dad's pitching this afternoon. Oh, I'm excited this afternoon. Yeah.

[David Rhodes]

All right. After he what, drops off the kids at school, goes to pitch. All right.

[Willie Geist]

And works a second job because one's going to be going to junior college next year.

[David Rhodes]

Yeah. Dunkin Donuts, I think it is.

[Willie Geist]

All right, he does. I will say, Mika walks in. Everybody's going young, 22 year old, up started. Mika walks in, she goes, who's dad? He's fun to watch.

[David Rhodes]

I like him. All right, coming up, some middle and high school students are performing at all time lows in core subjects.

[Willie Geist]

Well, what makes this statistic so disturbing is I haven't been in high school in years, so I'm not even there to bring the numbers down.

[David Rhodes]

We'll be joined by a Harvard education professor who says this trend predates the COVID pandemic. That conversation is straight ahead on Morning Joe.

[Joe Scarborough]

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[Mike Allen]

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[Willie Geist]

As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.

[Mike Allen]

The American people are basically telling the.

[Willie Geist]

President that they are not okay with any of this. Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms.

[David Rhodes]

Welcome back. It's 44 past the hour. The National Assessment of Education Progress is giving a grim outlook for 8th and 12th grade students. In its first report card since before the COVID 19 pandemic, data shows test scores dropped to the lowest in decades for reading and math among high school seniors. 45% scored below the basic level in math, the lowest since 2005. 32% scored below the basic level in reading, the lowest since the exam began in 1992. Declines in 8th grade science are also ringing alarm bells with 38% scoring below the basic level, signaling some students would not be able to to recall simple science facts such as plants needing sunlight to grow.

[Willie Geist]

I mean, Willie, this is obviously just a grave challenge and we've seen these numbers going down for quite some time. This is the lowest since 2005. Of course, smartphones introduced in 2010 or 11. Not blaming it just on smartphones, but it's hard not to find a social marketing, a social reading, a social meter that hasn't gone down since smartphones were introduced to our children.

[Mike Allen]

Anxiety, depression, attention deficit would obviously affect studying and all the kinds of things in school. Let's get some more answers from the vice chair of the national assessment governing board, Dr. Martin West. He's also the Academic dean at the Harvard Graduate school of education. Dr. West, thanks for being with us. So the numbers, the headline, alarming certainly, but as you point out, it's not just Covid. This trend began long before COVID As you look at the total picture, what are the factors driving this decline in test scores?

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, the nation's report card is designed to tell us what's happening to American students achievement. Not necessarily why, but I do think the patterns that we see can guide our search for explanations. You're right that the declines really began in the middle of the 2010s, so we should be looking for factors that predate the pandemic and not focusing only on those disruptions. We know that the declines have been across all subjects, not just reading and math, but also science, civics and U.S. history. And we know that they've been particularly severe for low performing students, those in the bottom 25% of the distribution. Meanwhile, students in the top 10% are scoring just about as well as ever. So as I look for explanation that sort of checks all those boxes, I think you are right to be talking about the role of smartphones, the emergence of social media targeting youth, and the distraction that they've become for American students over the past decade so.

[Mike Allen]

So, Dr. West, what other trends are you seeing here? Is it about geography? Is it about class? Is it about gender? Are there social issues that might be contributing to these students failing?

[Joe Scarborough]

I think the real pattern, the one that we've been trying to call people's attention to, is this fanning out of achievement. The growing divide between our Highest performing students and the lowest performing. And you know, that is what is driving the declining average scores are those drops at the bottom. And this means that we have an increasing share of students who are really graduating from high school, very ill prepared for not just college, but really the world of work.

[Willie Geist]

You know, Mike, we were talking off camera about many of the challenges that these children are facing. And of course we were talking about smartphones. You also brought up though post 2008, the Great Recession. You talked about the, our economy blowing apart, the problems with COVID A lot of times you have two parents that are, that are working around the clock trying to keep jobs. A lot of times you have single parents trying, trying to do everything they can do. And you know, we've all seen it. Sometimes it takes two parents to say, put down the smartphone study, put down your iPhone, we're eating, we're at a restaurant. Put down your phone, put it in your pocket. I mean, it is, you know, when you have people are struggling economically, a single parent household don't have two adults that are looking at the children. I mean, it is very hard. It's. And yeah, I am going back to smartphones because it's hard not to blame a technology that studies have shown reduces the attention span not just of children but also of adults to like, you know, 14 seconds. They're just constantly, they can't keep a thought. They're constantly, their brains are constantly moving. They can't read. You know, I've heard my children a lot of their friends, it's hard, almost impossible for them to sit down and read a book. Now, do they have a book? Do they actually have a book? Well, only the ones that are assigned on the table. Are they trying to read an iPad? Well, they're not trying to read. They're probably going to AI to say, what's Wuthering Heights about? I mean, you've got, all of what you just said is, I think, accurate, especially home life. You've got two working parents in many situations. Maybe one of them, the company they work for is downsizing or moving to another state. So there's a disruption in the daily life of parent child interest. And Dr. West, I would like to ask you this question. So when you talk about these scores and you look at them, they're down in science, they're down in math, they're down in reading. What is wrong with the American educational system? That's pretty much across the board. Every subject, important subject taught in schools, the scores are way down.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, I think you all are Right. To be talking about multiple factors that could be driving this. You point to the importance of family structure. We know that that's a very important contributor to student success. You talk about the increasing distraction from technology. And the question is, why are schools not able to respond to these potentially growing challenges? I think it is fair to say that we've seen diminished emphasis on accountability for results in the American education system at all levels since around 2015. You know, there was a period not too long ago, from the mid-1990s through about 2015, where scores on the National Assessment of Educational Progress were steadily rising and the fastest progress was actually, actually being made by our lowest achieving students, exactly the opposite of the pattern that we see right now. And that was a period where, you know, there was a bipartisan emphasis on standards and holding schools accountable for results. And it was producing steady progress, not as fast as we would have wanted, but, you know, progress nonetheless. And in education, oftentimes we want to be searching for the shiny new thing, chasing fads. But, but maybe right now we need to look at what has worked in the past.

[David Rhodes]

Dr. Martin west, thank you very much. We will hopefully be talking about this a lot more. There are a lot of different angles to this story. Still ahead, the Trump administration has been criticized for taking stakes in intel and a cut of Nvidia's chip sales in China. But Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick says the administration is now eyeing other sources of revenue. Mike Allen joins us to explain next on MORNING joe.