Joe: Huge takeaway from WH meeting is a security guarantee with the U.S. involved

Summary

Morning Joe — August 19, 2025

Episode Theme:
“Joe: Huge takeaway from WH meeting is a security guarantee with the U.S. involved”

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1. Overview

This Morning Joe episode centers on the aftermath of a landmark White House meeting between President Trump, Ukrainian President Zelensky, and leading European and NATO officials. The main topic is President Trump’s public commitment to a security guarantee for Ukraine—an unprecedented step—and the unified Western front it represents. The conversation analyzes what such a guarantee might mean, how Russia could react, and the profound shift in U.S.-Europe relations visible at the meeting. The show also addresses Israel-Hamas-Gaza ceasefire negotiations, before turning to public health issues and current events.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Security Guarantees for Ukraine (01:01–17:00)

i. Trump's Commitment to Security Guarantees

• Trump promises new security guarantees for Ukraine, suggesting substantial long-term U.S. involvement should a peace deal with Russia be reached:

  “We’re going to make sure that if there’s peace, the peace is going to stay long term... When it comes to security, there’s going to be a lot of help. It’s going to be good. ...We’ll be involved.”
  — Donald Trump [01:01]

• Joe Scarborough highlights this as the episode’s central takeaway:

  “...this is the first time that President Trump said there’s going to be a security guarantee. The United States is going to be involved, their first line of defense... but the US will be there as well.”
  — Joe Scarborough [01:34]

ii. The United Western Front

• The meeting itself was described as “an extraordinary event” by Willie Geist, demonstrating tight Western unity:

  “...all the leaders of Europe, of the west countries, the leader of NATO, the leader of the European Commission traveling to the White House... sending a strong signal... not just to Ukraine, but to all of Europe and to the Western world...”
  — Willie Geist [02:18]

• Nicole Wallace notes diplomatic savvy on both sides—European leaders and Zelensky showed deference and flattery toward Trump, but disagreed diplomatically about a ceasefire before a permanent peace:

  “They did so couched in flattery, couched in thanking him for his leadership. It’s a much more convivial atmosphere... There was just a better feeling in the room, significantly better than February.”
  — Nicole Wallace [04:19]

iii. Russia's Response and the Historical Context

• Kremlin reacted negatively, perhaps alarmed at the united Western front.
• Joe Scarborough draws the historical connection:

  “...Putin basically is surrounded, he is isolated... the leaders of the west came to the White House yesterday. They stood shoulder to shoulder. It was quite striking.”
  — Joe Scarborough [03:16]

iv. The Devil in the Details

• Uncertainty remains: What exactly will the security guarantees be? Will they be comparable to NATO’s Article 5? Will Congress be involved to ensure they endure beyond Trump’s presidency? (Richard Haass, [09:02])
• Europe may offer boots on the ground; the U.S. could provide intelligence or weapons.

v. Land Concessions: Difficult Realities and Red Lines

• Discussion about Ukraine being pressured to cede territory for security assurances:

  “At some point, even the Biden administration was saying...Ukraine’s going to have to agree to cede land for security agreements.”
  — Joe Scarborough [10:23]

• Richard Haass raises a key distinction:

  “There’s a big difference... whether you ask Ukraine to recognize reality, accept that the Russians occupy certain things... as opposed to giving up title and making it permanent. That would reward aggression...”
  — Richard Haass [11:00]

vi. How Zelensky Handled the Meeting

• Zelensky learned from past confrontations; maintained diplomatic composure, especially in response to pointed or even hostile questions:

  “We live under each day attacks... We will do our best for this. So, and I think we show that we are strong people and we supported the idea of the United States... to stop this war, to make diplomatic way of finish this war.”
  — Zelensky (via Matt Bradley) [13:04]

B. Europe’s Changing Role (17:57–22:57)

• Europe is more confident and independent in security and diplomacy, according to Richard Haass and Jon Meacham:

  “...we’ve seen something of a European awakening. And in some ways... we’re beginning to see Europe with as a confident, much more independent actor in the world. And actually, Donald Trump can take some credit for that.”
  — Richard Haass [18:33]

• European leaders and Zelensky display new diplomatic skills in managing Trump, employing flattery and adjusting styles (Vivian Salama, [19:35]).

• Europe’s unity and willingness to consider major defense commitments—like spending 5% GDP and sending peacekeeping troops—mark a turning point from intra-Western squabbling during Trump’s first term (Joe Scarborough, [29:03]).

C. Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: Ceasefire Efforts (34:40–42:53)

i. Hamas Agrees to a Ceasefire Proposal

• Hamas reportedly accepts a new, Egypt-brokered ceasefire plan involving a 60-day truce, humanitarian aid, negotiations, and a phased release of Israeli hostages for Palestinian prisoners (Matt Bradley, [36:32]).

ii. Israeli Resistance

• Israeli leadership, especially Netanyahu and Trump, are unwavering in their demand to “finish the job” against Hamas:

  “When people talk about finishing the job against Hamas... that’s simply a recipe for permanent war. You can never quite finish the job against an ideological, political, military, terrorist organization.”
  — Richard Haass [39:56]

iii. U.S. Leverage and the Problem of Palestinian Leadership

• Richard Haass and Joe Scarborough argue that only real pressure from Trump, who is “the most popular guy in Israel,” could force a change in Israeli policy, but he has so far deferred to Netanyahu.
• Effective, peaceful negotiations are hindered by the absence of credible, willing Palestinian leaders.

D. RFK Jr., Public Health, and Processed Foods (44:41–53:28)

• Light, humorous segment about RFK Jr.’s fitness displays—always working out in jeans—as an illustration of his health push ([44:41–46:34]).
• Dr. Vin Gupta critiques the administration’s “Make America Healthy Again” platform as more talk than action, particularly regarding pesticides and ultra-processed foods ([47:31–51:29]).

  “This was light on actual specifics and really focused on just waffle words like more research.”
  — Dr. Vin Gupta [47:48]

• There’s robust agreement on promoting healthy living and warning about the health impact of ultra-processed foods (e.g., cereals like Frosted Flakes).
• New: AstraZeneca flu vaccine nasal spray can now be delivered and self-administered at home, potentially boosting vaccine adoption ([51:47–53:14]).

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On U.S. Security Guarantees:

  “That really was really the biggest takeaway yesterday... the huge takeaway was this is the first time that President Trump said there’s going to be a security guarantee. The United States is going to be involved.”
  — Joe Scarborough [01:34]

• On European Unity at the White House:

  “To have all the leaders of Europe, of the west countries, the leader of NATO, the leader of the European Commission traveling to the White House... sending a strong signal.”
  — Willie Geist [02:18]

• On The Difficulty of Negotiations:

  “The phrase land swaps should be banned. What’s being talked about are not land swaps, they’re land transfers. Let’s call it what it is.”
  — Richard Haass [09:02]

• On Israel-Hamas Ceasefire Prospects:

  “When people talk about finishing the job against Hamas... that’s simply a recipe for permanent war.”
  — Richard Haass [39:56]

• On Flattery in Diplomacy:

  “Managing Donald Trump is an art. And a lot of that has to do with flattery and just basically playing the game. European leaders are catching onto that. It’s taken time. Zelenskyy is catching on to that.”
  — Vivian Salama [19:35]

• On Europe’s Historical Shift:

  “We’ve always talked about it here that the United States GDP is around 26, 27 trillion. The EU’s is 25, 26, 27 trillion... Europe’s talking about spending 5% of their GDP on defense... This is a far cry from the complaints that we heard that the Germans would not send their troops out at night in Afghanistan.”
  — Joe Scarborough [27:56]

• On Healthy Living Initiatives:

  “Absolutely, he [RFK Jr.] should be praised for this. No question.”
  — Dr. Vin Gupta [47:09]

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4. Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:01–02:18| Trump’s promise of security guarantees for Ukraine | | 02:18–04:19| Europe’s unified presence at the White House; change in diplomatic tone | | 07:03–10:00| Analysis by Richard Haass: Russia’s motives; historic pitfalls of security assurances | | 10:13–11:38| Land concessions debate; the distinction between de facto and de jure loss | | 12:16–15:11| Zelensky’s diplomatic response; contrast to previous Oval Office meetings | | 17:57–18:33| Haass on the “European awakening” and Trump’s indirect role | | 19:35–22:57| Vivian Salama’s analysis: Zelensky and European leaders learning how to manage Trump | | 34:40–38:57| Matt Bradley: Details of new Hamas ceasefire proposal; Israeli government in context | | 39:56–43:15| Haass & Scarborough debate Israeli-Palestinian political possibilities | | 44:41–47:31| Lighter moment: RFK Jr. fitness challenge; messaging on exercise for youth | | 47:31–51:29| Dr. Vin Gupta on public health, ultra-processed foods, and critique of current initiatives | | 51:47–53:14| New at-home flu vaccine options and their potential impact |

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5. Style & Tone

• Energetic, conversational, pointed. Joe’s blend of passionate commentary and sardonic humor anchors the tone.
• Camaraderie among hosts and guests punctuates serious discussions with wit (e.g., riffing on European “flattery” and RFK Jr.’s jeans).
• Unabashed criticism: Questions about media behavior, tough assessments of Trump and Putin, and skepticism toward political posturing are voiced openly.

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6. Conclusion

This episode of Morning Joe offers a timely, in-depth look at a potential turning point in the Ukraine war, marked by U.S. public commitment to a security guarantee and extraordinary Western unity at the White House. Discussion is enriched by historical context (the failures of past assurances, Europe’s evolution on defense), debate over the morality and strategy of land concessions, and realpolitik around Russia and Israel. Lighter but relevant segments—on diplomatic performance, public health, and European “awakening”—round out the morning’s news mix.

Transcript

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[Donald Trump]

We're going to work with Ukraine. We're going to work with everybody and we're going to make sure that if there's peace, the peace is going to stay long term. This is very long term. We're not talking about a two year peace and then we end up in this mess again. We're going to make sure that everything's good. We'll work with Russia, we're going to work with Ukraine and we're going to make sure it works. And I think if we can get to peace, it's going to work. I have no doubt about it. When it comes to security, there's going to be a lot of help. It's going to be good. They are first line of defense because they're there. They're Europe, but we're going to help them out also. We'll be involved.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's President Donald Trump yesterday discussing the possibility of security guarantees to prevent future attacks on Ukraine if there is a peace deal with Russia. And Willie, that really was really the biggest takeaway yesterday, other than an extraordinary show of support from Europe. They stood shoulder to shoulder and I don't remember seeing anything quite like that inside the White House. But as the Wall Street Journal editorial page said, which we're going to be reading in a minute, the huge takeaway was this is the first time that President Trump said there's going to be a security guarantee. The United States is going to be involved, their first line of defense, because they're there, they're Europe, but the US Will be there as well.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, I mean, that's a major development, saying the United States will support this security guarantee that the president has proposed. We don't know what it looks like exactly, but as you say it was an extraordinary event, just to pause and take the 30,000 foot view, to have all the leaders of Europe, of the west countries, the leader of NATO, the leader of the European Commission traveling to the White House to show how important this is not just to Ukraine, but to all of Europe and to the Western world, sending a strong signal to President Trump. And obviously the tone of the meeting was completely different than the one when President Zelensky was berated inside the Oval Office a couple of months ago by President Trump and Vice President Vance. Even the Trump friendly members of the media showed a little more deference to President Zelensky, but we'll see. The devil's in the details.

[Joe Scarborough]

Exactly.

[Willie Geist]

Does Vladimir Putin really want peace? Many people are skeptical of that. Or does he just want to grab the land which was the intent of his invasion three and a half years ago?

[Joe Scarborough]

Right. And the feeling of the White House last night was that Putin basically is surrounded, he is isolated. They've got, you know, this is, we say Europe, this is the west, like the West. The leaders of the west came to the White House yesterday. They stood shoulder to shoulder. It was quite striking. We talked about this yesterday and can't wait to hear from Rich on this. Quite striking how in his first term, he was constantly battling Theresa May, he was constantly battling Angela Merkel. There was just this constant, this constant friction. Yesterday, it was just the opposite. The White House pointed strangely enough to the negotiations on the tariffs that they got to know each other in the give and the take of the tariff negotiations. So when there was something big and significant like that, everybody knew everybody, everybody was comfortable with everybody. They were able to come together and again come up with a plan to give Ukraine what Ukraine has desperately needed. And that security guarantees President Trump far.

[Nicole Wallace]

More comfortable with the European leaders. The European leaders also much better at managing President Trump. Even yesterday, we saw brief moments of disagreement. We heard from Macron, we heard from Chancellor Mears saying that they thought a ceasefire is needed first before permanent peace breaking with President Trump. But they did so couched in flattery, couched in thanking him for his leadership. It's a much more convivial atmosphere and certainly to Willie's point, even President Zelensky, taking notes, showed up with a jacket and a shirt which was, you know, President Trump appreciated members of the media. Trump friendly members of the media did as well. There was just a better feeling in the room, significantly better than February. I, again, there are some of the details. Joe, to your point, security guarantees to be worked out. We will see what they are still some real mixed messages from what Russia is willing to accept.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right.

[Nicole Wallace]

There was reporting over the weekend that Europe would send, perhaps once a deal was struck, a peacekeeping force to Ukraine. Now, and the White House had said Putin had agreed to that. Now the Kremlin is saying, no, that's not the case. We're still not sure when the next summit might be and who would be involved, whether it's Putin and Zelensky, whether Trump would get in. We also don't know whether the Kremlin would ever Putin and Zelensky in the same room. But there's no question here Europe feels much better at the situation today than they did Friday night.

[Joe Scarborough]

They really do. And you almost think, Willie, that the Kremlin statement yesterday came them looking at the west united against them, saying, you know, this dream, this dream of Vladimir Putin's, again, we talk about it being a 20 year dream. It's a lifelong dream. I mean, and especially starting in 1989 when he was burning files in Eastern and East Germany for the kgb, he's thinking, my life mission is to reconstitute the old Russian empire and, and Ukraine's a massive part of that. So when he sees the west united together inside the White House and finally talking about security guarantees in a strong way, obviously, I think that's, that's probably why we saw the reaction from the Kremlin that we saw. So fascinating. A lot of details left to be worked out. The important thing again is the Wall Street Journal editorial has been very tough on Donald Trump. But as they said, I think they said Donald Trump gets real about security in Ukraine. I think that's, I think that's a difference maker.

[Willie Geist]

Let's see if it lasts. Let's bring in the president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass, also Rogers Chair in the American Presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian Jon Meacham and staff writer for the Atlantic, Vivian Salama. She's reporting with Jonathan Lemire on President Zelensky's tactics during yesterday's meeting. We'll read from that in a moment. Let's start real quickly with you, Richard. Just your view of what you saw yesterday.

[Richard Haass]

What we saw was Zelensky having learned how to manage the president, Europeans there to make sure it didn't go off the rails. Obviously a strong reaction to what happened in Alaska, which left a lot of people uneasy. And I think you've got it right here. You saw a real sign of the West. And I think there's a couple of questions, though, that are big. One Is, is Putin really prepared to climb down? Because his goal has never been a couple of square kilometers. His goal has been to end Ukraine as an independent sovereign country with fundamental ties to the West. He doesn't want to have a Slavic country on his border that's a democracy, that represents a different path for Russia, that's a threat to him. So is he prepared to live with that? Which is a fundamental question. It goes way beyond whether he's prepared to have this follow up meeting. But that's one of my takes. The other is this, you know, again you got talking about security assurances. There's a terrible experience here. 1994, the United States, Britain and Russia gave Ukraine security assurances in the Budapest memorandum. They were worthless. So the challenge this time is if you're going to give them security assurances that are not going to include NATO, not going to include Article 5, not going to include American troops, and I'm not saying we should, then the question is what is good enough?

[Joe Scarborough]

And I think the interesting thing though, the difference there is, number one, you're going to have boots on the ground. If what they talked about yesterday actually happened. European boots, European boots on the ground with US Support, whether that's intel, whether that's weapons, whatever that is, that's number one. Number two, it's very interesting and this sort of the quasi NATO argument some people have been making, the leaders there in Europe kept talking about Article 5 from NATO. We need to give them an Article 5 guarantee, including the most right wing nationalistic leader there who was expected to be pro Russian. And that was George Maloney who kept talking about Article 5 and kept talking about top security guarantees.

[Richard Haass]

That's a legitimate issue. But again, Article 5 like, is not Article 5. One question is an interesting, which I didn't hear yesterday, Joe, is whether the Congress would get involved. Is this something that would be permanent? Do you lock the United States in beyond the Trump presidency? I think that's a legitimate question still. Also the other big issue is the phrase land swaps should be banned. What's being talked about are not land swaps, they're land transfers. Let's call it what it is. And the question is why would they be one sided? What would Ukraine get? The idea that they would give up all that territory, millions of Ukrainians would either have to be displaced or live under Russian rule. I don't think that's going to happen. So the question is still what is it that the United States is going to ask of Ukraine? And also what is it going to ask of Russia in order to make this happen. Donya. I'll just. I don't mean to be the skunk at the garden party, but I think yesterday was an interesting day. I was reassured by the European presence. Still, though, to me, lots of fundamental questions.

[Joe Scarborough]

There are a lot of fundamental questions, but one question that is not out there is whether Ukraine is going to cede land to Russia. They are. I mean, they said that in the Biden administration.

[Richard Haass]

Yeah, but let me just be clear that at some point, there's a big difference as part of a ceasefire, where you slice you seed land what you might call de facto, and when you give up title.

[Joe Scarborough]

I'm not talking about ceasefires, I'm talking about in this permanent peace deal that they're talking about. At some point, even the Biden administration was saying, you know, we're going to have to see the land for. Have Ukraine, it's going to have to agree to cede land for security agreements. Everybody's basically said that the question is, where are those lines and how strong is the security agreement? If the security agreement's strong and keeps Ukraine safe for years to come, that's significant. Not just for Ukraine, that's significant for Poland, that's significant for Estonia, for Latvia, for Lithuania. That's why it's so important.

[Richard Haass]

Again, I think there's a big difference whether it's under Biden or now, whether you ask Ukraine to recognize reality, accept that the Russians occupy certain things and say, okay, whether it's part of a ceasefire or peace agreement, this is the way it is, as opposed to giving up title and making it permanent. And I think that's a very different. Because that would reward aggression and that would be a different thing to ask Poland, ask Ukraine to permanently transfer, to basically make this territory Russian. That is something that I would have real issues with, and I think that would be very hard for Ukraine to do. I think it might also be very hard for the Europeans to support.

[Joe Scarborough]

I think the Europeans, again, not to keep going back and forth, but everybody I've talked to in Europe, they understand this is a difficult situation, but they want the security guarantee, they want the wall, they want Putin contained, and they want a deal. And if Ukraine has to cede land, they want it. Whether it's Poland, whether it's the, you know, the Baltic states, whether. Whether it's any of the states in central or Eastern Europe, they're there yesterday because they want a deal, they want Putin, they want. Putin's march was stopped.

[Willie Geist]

So let's walk through what exactly happened Yesterday. President Trump now is planning a face to face meeting between Russian leader Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Remains to be seen if that actually will happen. The president sat down with Zelensky yesterday to talk about ending the war in Ukraine. Meeting vastly different, as we said, from February's visit when Zelenskyy was berated by the president. This time the two had cordial interactions, exchanging pleasantries, even agreeing on some points about the war. Though Zelenskyy did appear to dodge a question about whether he would cede that territory to Russia, something President Trump has been pushing for.

[Nicole Wallace]

President Zelensky, are you prepared to keep sending Ukrainian troops to their deaths for another couple years or are you going.

[Willie Geist]

To agree to redraw the maps?

[Matt Bradley]

Thank you for your question. So first of all, you know, we live under each day attacks. You know that today been a lot of attack and a lot of wounded people and the child was dead small one one year and a half. So we need to stop this war to stop Russia and we need support American and European partners. We will do our best for this. So, and I think we show that we are strong people and we supported the idea of the United States of personnel. President Trump to stop this war, to make diplomatic way of finish this war.

[Joe Scarborough]

President Zelensky very diplomatic, very diplomatic, even saying thank you for the question. John Lemire question was framed, I mean seriously, the Kremlin couldn't have written the question better. It could have very easily been asked of is Vladimir Putin willing to continue to allow another million casualties for an invasion, an illegal invasion where he's stolen children from the Ukrainian people instead, that was the most twisted tilted question again, you know, against Ukraine. I don't even understand it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, the phrasing means sending Ukraine soldiers to their deaths as opposed to fighting for their nation, fighting for their land, for their land, for their families. Yeah, there was, there were a couple of questions, by the way, that would.

[Joe Scarborough]

Be like asking FDR after Pearl harbor, are you really willing to allow 500,000Americans to die? I mean, that's, that's the question. This was an invasion of their sovereign land. And you're asking that question at the end while Ukrainian children and grandmothers are still being killed every day by Russia?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, and there was a lot of sort of eyebrow raising questions, to say the least, coming from the reporters who were allowed in the Oval Office, including a few who were not in the press pool but were from pretty MAGA friendly outlets who were allowed to get in there and ask some Questions Zelensky, though, to his credit, Willie, clearly this is one of the key things he learned from last time around. Don't get in back and forth, not just with Trump, but some of the questions meant to provoke. He didn't. He stayed diplomatic. He stayed on message.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, he did. And he expressed gratitude to the president, did all the things that blew up the last meeting. So after the discussion in the Oval Office there, Trump and Zelensky sat down with several key European officials, including the head of the European Union, the Secretary General of NATO, the prime ministers of Britain and Italy, the presidents of France and Finland, and the Chancellor of Germany. It was quite a showing. Much of that conversation focused on those security guarantees for Ukraine after the war, with the president affirming the United States will support Europe's efforts.

[Donald Trump]

The Alaska summit reinforced my belief that while difficult, peace is within reach. And I believe that. I'm optimistic that collectively we can reach an agreement that would deter any future aggression against Ukraine. And I actually think there won't be. I think that's even overrated, largely overrated. But we're going to find out, and I think that the European nations are going to take a lot of the burden. We're going to help them, and we're going to make it very secure.

[Matt Bradley]

Let's try to put pressure on Russia because the credibility of this efforts, these efforts we are undertaking today are depending on at least a ceasefire from the beginning of the serious negotiations, from next step on. So I would like to emphasize this aspect and would like to see ceasefire from the next meeting, which should be a trilateral meeting, wherever it takes place.

[Donald Trump]

Well, we're going to let the President go over and talk to the President and we'll see how that works out. And if we can do that, I will say, and again, I say it, in the six wars that I've settled, I haven't had a ceasefire. We just got into negotiations. And the one of the wars was, as you know, in The Congo was 30 years, 31 years long. Another one that we settled last week, week with two great countries was 35 years going on and we had no ceasefire. So if we can do the ceasefire, great. And if we don't do a ceasefire, because many other points were given to us, many, many points were given to us, great points.

[Richard Haass]

I think as a follow up, we would need probably a quadrilateral meeting, because.

[Joe Scarborough]

When we speak about security guarantees, we.

[Matt Bradley]

Speak about the whole security of the European continent.

[Joe Scarborough]

And this is why we are all united here with Ukraine on this matter.

[Matt Bradley]

In order to organize such a trilateral meeting.

[Joe Scarborough]

Your idea to ask for a truce or ceasefire, at least to stop the killings, as we discuss, is a necessity. And we all support this idea. Richard, while we were watching that, you talked about the transformation of Europe in the past year, past six months or year. What do you mean?

[Richard Haass]

The confidence, the fact that the Europeans, you know, we can talk about how they managed Trump, but also they were offering their own ideas. Like Mertz was saying. What he said on this, he's fired. But Europe has emerged individually and collectively. Now some strong leaders comfortable with saying what they think. They've made the pledges on defense. They're prepared to put boots on the ground, presumably in Ukraine. Donald Trump should basically say, wow, look at the difference in Europe. And it didn't just happen because of Europe. It happened because of the changes from us. He should actually feel good about yesterday.

[Joe Scarborough]

You mean like the pressure? Absolutely. From 2% even to 5% for the funding.

[Richard Haass]

We've seen something of a European awakening. And in some ways, in the first time in recent memory, in the Post World War II period, we're beginning to see Europe with as a confident, much more independent actor in the world. And actually, Donald Trump can take some credit for that.

[Joe Scarborough]

You know, Vivian, you and John wrote a piece talking about how Zelinsky trimmed his cells a bit this time and figured out how to read the room. You could say the same thing with Europe. It's fascinating. These European leaders and other European leaders were butting heads with Donald Trump in the first term. He was answering back. Somebody in the White House said yesterday, you never beat Donald Trump on the race to the bottom, he said. But yesterday, I think, just like Richard noted, not only was Zelensky knowing how to work with Donald Trump, Trump also, the President, also far more gracious with the European leaders. It looks like, at least in this case, they're learning how to work together.

[Vivian Salama]

You know, Joe, one of the things that Jonathan and I learned from covering the first Trump administration together is that managing Donald Trump is an art. And a lot of that has to do with flattery and just basically playing the game. And European leaders are catching onto that. It's taken time. Zelenskyy is catching on to that. Obviously, we saw that big, unprecedented blow up in the Oval Office in February, where Both Vice President J.D. vance and the President accused Zelenskyy of failing to show enough respect to the U.S. even though, you know, to be fair, Zelenskyy has regularly thanked the US for its support, both in weapons and aid, throughout the course of this war, obviously, you know, President Trump's predecessor, Joe Biden, was doing a lot for Ukraine as well. And he used to thank him profusely. But this time around, obviously the relationship is different. He came in where President Trump has long been very skeptical of Ukraine. He thought that they were a corrupt country. Obviously he carried grievances dating back to the first impeachment and the so called perfect phone call with Zelensky. And so, you know, there was beef there just to kind of keep it simple. And Zelenskyy has now figured that out. And obviously after that February incident where they were booted from the White House before even getting served the lunch that was prepared for their delegation and everything was abruptly canceled following that Oval Office spat, European leaders pleaded with Zelenskyy basically with a simple message, do not engage Donald Trump because you're not going to win. You're not gonna come out winning this one. And so he learned the lesson. Everything from his attire where, you know, he, he some of the comments from some conservative outlets, some pro Trump reporters who said that it was disrespectful for him to show up in his usual sort of military attire that he's been wearing for the past few years. So he donned the same black suit that he had worn to the Vatican in recent months and really came showing his gratitude, repeatedly thanking reporters for their questions. And the European leaders did the same. Jonathan and I wrote in our story about how the roundtable, the multilateral, the expanded session with the European leaders was very similar to how President Trump holds his cabinet meetings, where he would go around the table and ask each individual, every individual to speak. And part of their comments would obviously be very much in gratitude of the president and thanking him for his leadership. And there was a little bit of that on display yesterday from the European leaders. So they figured this out.

[Nicole Wallace]

Vivian, great piece. So let's talk about how Europe feels now going forward. There was real alarm coming out of Friday in Alaska. They feared that Trump was willing suddenly no longer insisting on a ceasefire. There was a point of contention yesterday, but also perhaps falling back into his sort of history of being too deferential to Putin. From what you can pick up, and it's only a few hours later, does Europe feel better about the situation going forward after, as noted in the story, they feel like they did manage Trump effectively yesterday.

[Vivian Salama]

From everyone I spoke to after the meeting, I'm getting a feeling that they're cautiously optimistic. There's definitely a sense of skepticism because of the fact that Putin is, you know, unpredictable he's very savvy. He has learned also how to manage Trump, just as the European leaders have learned to how to manage Trump. And so they failed to see any opportunity for Putin to say, you know what, let's settle this. You can have Ukraine, you can have your territory back. Let's let bygones be bygones. I mean, Vladimir Putin literally believes that Ukraine should not exist. He has repeatedly said this. He sits with European leaders. He sat with Trump and gone into detailed history from his version, his account of why Ukraine is actually part of Russia and it shouldn't exist. So it's very hard to negotiate with someone like that. And so the Europeans really are aware of that. Of course, Donald Trump believes that he is negotiator in chief and believes that this is his strong suit. And so he thinks that he can pull it off. But in order to do that, everyone has to kind of give something up. It remains to be seen what Russia will give up.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, staff writer for the Atlantic, Vivian Salama. You did a great job considering who you were riding with. I'm not even sure how you made that line.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, guys, real handicap.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, he was a real handicap.

[Richard Haass]

Just for that.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, just for, just for keeping that.

[Vivian Salama]

It's a tough job. It's a tough job.

[Joe Scarborough]

Somebody has to do it. Somebody has to do it. You know? You know, so, Willie, I was talking about yesterday how this could be a three act play. First, Alaska, second, the White House. And if the White House went well, third may be Putin saying no and being isolated. And then Donald Trump holding the cards of the United States Senate just itching to hit Russia with some even more tough sanctions. There was a talk yesterday of a big military aid bill. Zelensky talked about a possible $90 billion military aid bill. I would say, going back to who's holding the cards right now, Donald Trump and the White House holding a lot more cards than Vladimir Putin. If the United States decides to lean in on him to push him to this deal, we certainly have the levers to do that.

[Willie Geist]

Remains to be seen if the president will. He hasn't in the past. He's been deferential to Putin, almost always, literally rolled out the red carpet for him in Alaska. So today, yesterday was a day. We'll see what today brings. Let's bring in Jon Meacham. Jon, extraordinary historically, just to see that image of the, effectively the entirety of the west seated around a table, rallying to support Ukraine, sitting inside the White House. I probably, I'll let defer to you on this. But you can count on one hand the number of times we've seen that in the last few decades. But it was significant. The question is, what comes today? What does Vladimir Putin do next?

[Jon Meacham]

Well, I think Putin's the central question here. In some ways, the most important person yesterday wasn't there. This is a war he began. And Richard said he didn't want to be the skunk at the Garden Party. But I was sitting thinking, you know, we are living in a world that Donald Trump has created. And so our incentives, the reality to which we have to respond has been created by the president. And I was reminded, watching everyone do the ritual flattery and the sartorial diplomacy of Zelensky and that really horrible question that was framed in the Oval Office. I was thinking about something my father who fought in Vietnam, he would say casually, the great trope. Remember that the Paris talks couldn't begin because they couldn't decide on the shape of the table. Remember that old, that bit there? And I remember his saying, if you took the diplomats and put them in play, coup for a half hour, I bet they would figure out what shape the table should be. The reality on the ground is that the president of Russia, who wants to be not the General Secretary of the Communist Party, but wants to be the czar, began a war for his own and his country's aggrandizement.

[Joe Scarborough]

So.

[Jon Meacham]

To me, the central question out of all of this is what will President Putin see as victory in this exchange? How does he define this? And I think that to me, that's the central question.

[Joe Scarborough]

I wanted to ask you, John, about Europe, about the West. We've heard about the west and declined the west being weaker, Europe weakening. Of course, we've always talked about it here that the United States gdp is around 26, 27 trillion. The EU's is 25, 26, 27 trillion. Let's talk about. You and I always talk about the post war world. Let's follow up on what Richard said about, about the fact that Europe has been reawakened. Europe's Talking about spending 5% of their GDP on defense. They were all there yesterday. Every one of them was saying they wanted to be part of a peacekeeping force. Georgia Maloney talking about Article 5 type assurances. This is a far cry from the complaints that we heard that the Germans would not send their troops out at night in Afghanistan.

[Jon Meacham]

Right?

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Jon Meacham]

This is 1914.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right.

[Jon Meacham]

I mean, this is a pre Cold War world where there are a number of nation states who are powerful players, who are now relevant In a conversation that. And I always defer to Dr. Haas on all things, but particularly on this, this. But this was. We lived in a polarized world for 80 years, right? 75 years, from 1945, really, until 1989, you could argue until the early years of this century, where what mattered actually was what Moscow or Washington and then ultimately Beijing thought. That was the first question. Now it feels as if we are in a much sort of like everything else in our life, right. We live in a fractured world. Communication is fractured, the economy is increasingly fractured, and now diplomacy is fractured. And so there are more players, and therefore, there are more possibilities, both for good outcomes and, alas, for bad. I think to me, the disintermediation, if you will, of power has reached the diplomatic world after it's reached how we all consume information and make our livings. And I think it's, it's unstable and it's uncomfortable, and we have to figure out, will the principles that we established in the bipolar world, will those endure? The bipolar one was aggression will not stand. As George H.W. bush said after Richard Haass handed him a note in a borrowed jacket without a haircut in August of 1990.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Jon Meacham]

If you. Willie, that's the Haas family trivia card, that is.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, we're waiting for.

[Joe Scarborough]

You know what's so interesting is you and I, yesterday, we were at the dog track, and we're in between the seventh and eighth race, and Willie turns to me, goes, joe, you know what? What concerns me right now? And I, I, I said that Leopard's little helper is not going to win the next race. He goes, no, the disintermediation of power in America. Yeah, that's what concerns me.

[Willie Geist]

You ignored me was you had the rolled up newspaper.

[Joe Scarborough]

I was slapping it. And if you want to win, if you want, if you want to get a Pulitzer Prize, you got to start talking like Meacham.

[Richard Haass]

I'll get that.

[Joe Scarborough]

Disintermediation.

[Nicole Wallace]

I couldn't even begin to spell that.

[Willie Geist]

And by the way.

[Jon Meacham]

Yeah, I think it's a fair, I think it's a fair point. It's a good word.

[Joe Scarborough]

And listen, we'll take disintermediation over more, more waxing and waning about, waxing on about Shay's Rebellion any day of the week. We're very good.

[Willie Geist]

And we should point out this aggression will not stand made famous by the Big Lebowski. This aggression will not exactly, man, it all come, man.

[Joe Scarborough]

Exactly.

[Willie Geist]

Jon Meacham, that's what our. Great to talk to you. Thank you, John, as always. Still ahead on Morning Joe, Hamas reportedly has agreed to a ceasefire proposal. We'll dig into the terms as Israeli officials weigh their options. Plus, President Trump says now he wants to ban mail in voting. Take a closer look at what's behind that renewed push. And a reminder, the Morning Joe podcast is available every weekday. It features our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching Morning Joe.

[Jon Meacham]

I'll be right back.

[Joe Scarborough]

I listen while I golf. My handicap has gone down 5 to the podcast for a week. Yeah.

[Richard Haass]

At a time like this, we can't forget that the fight for a brighter future isn't defined by any single moment.

[Donald Trump]

Moment.

[Richard Haass]

It's defined by the work we do, the values we stand for, and the commitment we make to each other each and every day. Please consider making a gift to the Obama foundation today. It's the best way to support our mission and help these young leaders continue to build a fairer, kinder, more hopeful future for all of us.

[Vivian Salama]

The bottom line is, even as the Trump administration tries to end abortion access, slash funding and shut down health centers, plan, Planned Parenthood continues its vital work without flinching. The assault on reproductive health is strategic and persistent. And who gets hurt the most? Women, people of color, rural communities, folks with low incomes, the people who already face the biggest barriers to care. If you believe everyone deserves to control their own body and future, donate [e-mail] defend Saturday, October 11th.

[MSNBC Announcer]

From New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Bruszinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Hayes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule, and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, wow, look at that.

[Willie Geist]

What a beautiful picture.

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, my.

[Willie Geist]

Go City sunrise. 6:33 on an August Tuesday morning.

[Joe Scarborough]

How does TJ dial those?

[Nicole Wallace]

Amazing.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, it's really serious.

[Richard Haass]

Venus paradise.

[Joe Scarborough]

That is. I know.

[Willie Geist]

That's our friends at WNBC Chopper 4.

[Joe Scarborough]

Wow.

[Willie Geist]

Bringing us pictures. Beautiful. All right. Hamas reportedly has accepted the terms of a new ceasefire put forward by mediators from Arab countries. The New York Times is reporting the deal would see the release of Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners. That's according to two diplomats familiar with the negotiations. And an Egyptian official unclear whether Israel would accept such proposal, which also would allow for Israel to redeploy its forces into Gaza and allow for sufficient humanitarian aid to enter the territory. Two of those officials told the paper. Meanwhile, the Times also reports Israel has held talks with South Sudan on accepting Gazan refugees into that country. That's according to officials and people briefed on the discussion. South Sudan publicly has denied any involvement. Let's bring in NBC News international correspondent Matt Bradley, who joins us live from Tel Aviv. So, Matt, we hear from time to time quite frequently actually, proposals, cease fire deals, they tend to fall apart. What about this one?

[Matt Bradley]

Yeah, I mean, it's always been just soul crushing watching these negotiations rise and all of the talk, all of the optimism and then just a few them come crashing down. This really could be the same thing. And there's, you know, nobody's using the word optimism anymore around these negotiations because they've just failed so frequently. Now, this one, given this Hamas approval that we heard about yesterday, it looks like the ball is very much in Israel's court. And we've been seeing a lot of internal division tearing apart of the fabric of this country here in Israel for just the past couple of days. NBC News spoke with Egyptian Foreign Minister Badr Abdelati, who has been instrumental in presenting this proposal from the Egyptians that now Hamas has signed on to. We spoke to him really just about an hour ago, and here's what he told us about this proposal.

[Joe Scarborough]

It has three main pillars. One is of course, a ceasefire for 60 days and during this period, period of ceasefire, to start negotiations between Hamas and Israel for ending the war and having a sustainable ceasefire.

[Matt Bradley]

The second pillar is, of course, to.

[Joe Scarborough]

Allow the flow of humanitarian and medical aid to Gaza as soon as possible to deal with the current starvation in process in Gaza. The the third pillar is related to.

[Matt Bradley]

The release of hostages, 10 alive hostages.

[Joe Scarborough]

And around 18 bodies, in return of release of specific numbers of Palestinian detainees.

[Matt Bradley]

So really what we're seeing here, guys, is a proposal that doesn't seem satisfy a lot of the requirements that have been set forward by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, nor President Donald Trump, who posted on Truth Social they have to finish the job against Hamas. And this is the central question, guys, that's splitting this country. We've seen protests over the past couple of days against Benjamin Netanyahu's plan to expand ground operations in the Gaza Strip because family members of the hostages who are still remaining there are worried that those exposure, expanded operations could harm their loved ones. And that's something that the Israeli government has, they're trying to take care of. But it looks as though there's already mobilization efforts to try to expand that operation in the Gaza Strip. Now, this whole thing, this Whole proposal that has been approved by Hamas is now waiting on sign off from the Israelis. And we heard already today the Israelis are standing by their position that they will not end the fighting until Hamas is completely destroyed. So basically, it looks as though after a weekend of enormous protests that have clogged the streets here in Tel Aviv and in Jerusalem and cities throughout Israel, we're about to see whether Benjamin Netanyahu will cave to pressure from the streets, from angry people, from the family members of the hostages, and from the public who overwhelmingly say they want to see an end to the war immediately and the release of the hostages, even if that might not necessarily mean the full defeat of Hamas, or whether or not Netanyahu is going to kill cave to his far right, who have already said that they want to see this proposal essentially rejected.

[Joe Scarborough]

Guys, NBC's Matt Bradley Live from Tel Aviv, thank you so much, Greatly appreciate it as always, Richard. There can be protests in the street. It's all they want. Benjamin Netanyahu's government hangs together by right wing extremists. And by the way, if you look at the three to four most powerful parties in Israel right now, they're all right to far right. There is no center in Europe in Israel. There hasn't been a center in Israel since October 7th. We certainly understand the reaction to October 7th, but here we are with Israel continuing to do things that their own military leaders and intel leaders say are not in Israel's best interest. And they're walking into a quagmire. There's a reason they gave up Gaza before, but they're walking. So the question is, will Benjamin Netanyahu accept this ceasefire? The question answers itself, doesn't it?

[Richard Haass]

I would think the odds highly unlikely he accepts it. When people talk about finishing the job against Hamas, Joe, that's simply a recipe for permanent war. You can never quite finish the job against an ideological, political, military, terrorist organization.

[Joe Scarborough]

And yet that's exactly what Benjamin Netanyahu and President Trump are saying. Finish, finish the job.

[Richard Haass]

That's a recipe for permanent war. Also, if you do want to ever marginalize Hamas, you need two things. It's what the British did in Northern Ireland. You need a military dimension. The Israelis have got that. You also need a political dimension. You have to sell Palestinians on the idea there's an alternative, better way to realize some of their political ambitions. That's what the British did in Northern Ireland with the Provisional ira. The Israelis are refusing to put on the table a political dimension to their policy. So as a result, you cannot succeed against Hamas with a one dimensional military only policy that is simply a formula. We'll have this conversation.

[Joe Scarborough]

But here's the difference. John and Richard knows so much about obviously what happened in Northern Ireland. Difference here is with the Palestinians, you don't have players that are willing to come to the table. Hamas is still calling for the destruction of Israel. Even the Palestinian Authority, you know, didn't condemn Hamas's slaughter of Jews on October 7th. So you need a player. You know, in Northern Ireland there were, you know, there was Jerry Adams and there were other, you know, Martin McGinnis. You know, there were people that would step forward and say, okay, we're going to take a chance for peace. It would go back to 2000 and as a Bill Clinton managed to an extraordinary deal for the Palestinians. Yasserafat wouldn't take it. The old saying is Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. So that's one of the problems here is who do they negotiate with to come up with a deal like Northern Ireland.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, it's a diminished Palestinian Authority these days too. And Richard, to that point there could be a pressure posed from Washington, but President Trump seems not willing to do that. That's what's changed here. His focus certainly has shift more towards the Ukraine, Russia conflict. We did hear from him a few weeks ago, break with Netanyahu about the famine conditions in Gaza. More aid, not enough. But more aid went in after that. But otherwise, to Joe's point, he's sort of seeing almost like washed his hands of this and say, do what you need to do.

[Richard Haass]

You're right. But he's right now the most popular guy in Israel. If Donald Trump wants to push the Israelis, he has more political power there, quite honestly than anybody, including Bibi, Netanyahu. And Joe, you're right, there isn't a Palestinian leader right now who's willing to play the role of Jerry Adams and Martin McGinnis when they turn away from violence. That's the challenge for the United States. And Israel ought to be set out conditions so a new generation of Palestinian leaders begin to emerge and Israel will say, we're willing to talk to you if you're willing to check these boxes to accept these conditions sometimes.

[Joe Scarborough]

And by the way, it starts with accepting Israel's right to exist and giving up violence.

[Richard Haass]

And giving up violence as a legitimate tool. That's the buy in. If the Israelis are willing to do then that they can ultimately cultivate the emergence of someone they can negotiate with. They don't have them now. No argument, but that's the goal of diplomacy sometimes to bring that about.

[Willie Geist]

Richard Haass spanning the globe for us this morning. Thanks, Richard. Coming up, Dr. Vin Gupta joins us to discuss some of the morning's medical headlines, including a new at home vaccine option for flu season. Morning Joe coming right back.

[Vivian Salama]

Ever wanted to stay on vacation longer? Us too. With VRBO's long stay discounts, you can stay longer and save more on select properties. Gotta love a win win book. The perfect summer getaway today with VRBO Private vacation Rentals. Your future self will thank you later.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Saturday, October 11th, from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule, and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up [e-mail].

[Matt Bradley]

Hi, I'm Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Your HHS secretary. I'm here with Secretary Hegseth from the Department of Defense. And we had our bail Big peep bobby challenge today. 50 pull ups, 100 push ups. You try to get under five minutes. How'd you get.

[Joe Scarborough]

We got close.

[Matt Bradley]

I was about 5, 25.

[Joe Scarborough]

You were right behind me. Jonathan Lemur asking the appropriate question. Why does RFK Jr. Who at 70, let's admit it's jacked. We don't know if it's a Donnie Deutsch, you know, like ATH thing, you know, Remember when Donnie would use the wear the Baby Gap black T shirt?

[Willie Geist]

Still does.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, still does.

[Willie Geist]

Summertime.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, it is some summertime in the Hamptons. But, yeah, but, but, yeah. Our question here is and Lemire, you asked, so answer it for us. Why, why does RFK work out in blue jeans?

[Nicole Wallace]

And it's not just here, it's.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, it's everywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

Every time I see footage of RFK Jr. Working out, he works out. Out in jeans.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

Which is not normal workout attire.

[Joe Scarborough]

Get some sweat.

[Nicole Wallace]

He's, he's committed to it, though.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, he does.

[Nicole Wallace]

And I. Look, there you go. I mean, he's, I mean, he's doing all the things. The jeans don't seem to be holding him back. But I, I, I've never heard a really, I've never heard him offer an explanation for this particular. We talked about sartorial diplomacy earlier.

[Willie Geist]

Let's not forget he went swimming in. Wasn't that Rock Creek Park? He went swimming in his blue jeans. So That's Bobby Kennedy Jr. Defense Secretary Pete Hegset flexing for the cameras while thanking President Trump for setting the example through his presidential physical fitness initiative, which is a good thing. Let's bring in MSNBC's medical contributor, Dr. Vin Gupta. Also with us, MSNBC contributor and fitness guru. Yeah, that's Mike Barnacle. Also denim.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. He's got the full.

[Willie Geist]

He's Canadian tuxedo.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's the urban cowboys.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

Attire that he wears. First of all, Doctor, let's just say there have been a lot of things to be critical of RFK Jr about. That's not one of them. I mean, you look at kids in school, I remember we all grew up doing presidential fitness. Fitness stuff.

[Richard Haass]

Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

And, and we get outside a lot more than we do now. Kids are overweight, out of shape, looking at their phones. This would be a good, this would be a good step, even if symbolic. I mean, you'd be a good step, wouldn't it? Oh, 100%, Joe.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

I mean, I think the, what they're very good at is getting the message out. And in this case, getting the message out on healthy living exercise, him doing these videos. Nothing wrong with that. And I agree with you. I think we've deteriorated as a society, especially at the adolescent level, in terms of activity. So absolutely, he should be praised for this. No question.

[Willie Geist]

All right, let's talk about the Make America Healthy Again push, as they're calling it. There was a leaked draft of White House health strategy documents that came out. Appears the Trump administration may not come down on the use of pesticides as hard as the health secretary initially said he wanted to. What more can you tell us?

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

Yeah, well, you know, there's, there was a push from a lot of environmental activists, a lot of people that really believed in the MAHA agenda prior to Bobby Kennedy being named HHS secretary, to say you have to take a firmer line on pesticide use, specifically chemicals that are in Roundup. Many of you may have that, many of our viewers may have that at home. There's a chemical in Roundup that has gotten a lot of scrutiny as potentially being carcinogen. So we expected in this MAHA draft agenda report that was released last week that something would be said about this pesticide that they were going to take firm action here. What did they do? They said that they were going to do more research on it. Something that, frankly, has existed for the last 10 to 15 years. So research, you know, that draft agenda, whether it was EPA and greenhouse house gases, whether it was water quality, whether it was, you know, you name it. This was light on actual specifics and really focused on just waffle words like more research. And really when you look at it, it was more about research into vaccine safety, autism, fluoride, sort of his, his clarion calls.

[Joe Scarborough]

So, so those are his clarion calls and things that, that disturb a lot of. I keep hearing that there is, you know, a lot of people who support the Mahaj and even independent of the vaccine push, are there positive things that he's talking about regarding food and pesticides, et cetera, et cetera, that you actually think we should focus on?

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

Absolutely. I mean, you said it in the tee up here. He's using his platform and he's doing video messages from a gym. That right there, he's using his platform in a helpful way. He's talking, they're talking about ultra processed foods. But let's. Again, there's a gap between how they market and how they talk about something. They talk a lot about it. This draft agenda, Joe, had one mention of ultra processed foods. And what did it say? It says we're going to do more research into the impacts of ultra processed food.

[Joe Scarborough]

You really don't have to do more research into the impact of ultra processed foods. It's terrible for elf.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

No, and what, what activists wanted, what they expected they were going to get, was a food label. They really wanted a warning on food to say this is an ultra processed food to make it as clear as day.

[Joe Scarborough]

Could you give us examples of ultra processed food?

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

Cereal. You know, I hate to say it, most forms of cereal, Frosted Flakes are probably enemy number one when it comes.

[Joe Scarborough]

To ultra processed cereal. Enemy number one. I thought it was Putin. It's Frosted Flakes. Everything's upside down. No, so, so that's, that is interesting, Willie. A lot of people talking more and more about processed food, ultra processed food. I'm a cereal freak. I eat it all the time. That explains a lot here. But we do need to get, I think we need to get that information out.

[Willie Geist]

And that part of the agenda has been popular. Broadly, I think a lot of people view as dangerous, a lot of what he's saying about vaccines and MRNA vaccines in particular as dangerous. Say, wait, the food food part we, we agree with. And by the way, you know who else agrees with is former first lady Michelle Obama, who was attacked by the right for talking about this stuff for many years. And now he's adopting exactly what she said, right.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

I mean this is an anemic draft agenda. It stops short of anything meaningful that hasn't been done over the last say three decades. And it really focused in on not upsetting anybody because they didn't really, they didn't want to upset the food lobby, which is why there isn't that food warning label on ultra processed foods. They didn't really want to go after the ag lobby so we didn't really do anything meaningful on pesticides. What do they do? If you really distill down its vaccine safety, autism research into the root causes of autism and fluoride and really that exactly is what the MAHA agenda is and it's very light on specifics otherwise.

[Willie Geist]

So let's talk about this new vaccine that's being rolled out that people can use apparently right there at home. AstraZeneca launching a delivery option for its flu mist. Nasal spray can be administrated at home with a prescription for anyone between the ages of 2 and 49. Tell us more about that, this talk.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

In this pretty extraordinary moment, Willie. I would say that in this, in this age we're just talking about MAHA RFK as impacts more broadly. You know, we've been talking about his messaging on vaccine safety undermining vaccine confidence. This I would say is a tailwind for vaccine adoption. You know, I mean, I would say this is a flu mist has existed since the swine flu epidemic so early 2000s. And why was it developed? It was developed because you can effectively give the flu vaccine through a nasal spray, self inflicted. And now what we're saying is we can actually send that home basic instructions to mom, dad to give to their child to administer themselves 2 to 49 years of age and it's effective, it's actually been re engineered so it's more effective against prevailing strains. There was concerns about its efficacy early on, which is why it fell into disfavor, but that's been addressed. So now you can actually go to flumist.org and fill out a few questions and see if it's right for you. Again, between 2 and 49 years of age, pregnant women, those with immunocompromised status probably need to have a conversation with your medical provider to make sure. But this is a big deal. Most children are needle phobic. 30% of adults are needle phobic. Most people don't want to make an appointment at a pharmacy because it's time out of your day. So imagine if we can start to do this for more and more conditions at home. Again in this era of tailwinds on vaccine adoption, or headwinds, rather.

[Willie Geist]

This is a tailwind and available for this flu season. Season.

[Dr. Vin Gupta]

This flu season. Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right.

[Willie Geist]

That's good news. I do note that most of us at this table are outside the top end age limit.

[Joe Scarborough]

We've aged out.

[Willie Geist]

Sad at this point. We've aged out.

[Joe Scarborough]

Good luck.

[Willie Geist]

It's all you, buddy.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right.

[Willie Geist]

NBC News medical contributor Dr. Vin Gupta. Dr. Gupta, always great to see you. Thanks for being here.

[MSNBC Announcer]

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