Morning Joe 11/21/24

Summary

Morning Joe - Episode Summary (November 21, 2024)

Hosted by Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski, with contributions from Willie Geist, Morning Joe delves into the pressing political issues of the day. In the November 21, 2024 episode, the hosts engage in a comprehensive discussion covering the controversy surrounding Matt Gaetz’s nomination for Attorney General, the potential appointment of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), the politicization of science, and the evolving landscape of immigration policy under the incoming Trump administration.

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1. Matt Gaetz's Nomination and Investigative Reports

The episode opens with a focus on Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen's reaction to a New York Times report detailing payments from Matt Gaetz to various women. Gaetz, seeking confirmation for his Attorney General nomination, faces intense scrutiny over alleged misconduct.

Joe Scarborough [01:59]:
"Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen reacted to a New York Times report that details a trail of payments from Matt Gaetz to various women."

Jackie Alemany [05:28]:
"It was already a very hard push to get Matt confirmed to begin with. If it comes out that it's actually true, that is."

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2. GOP Internal Conflicts and Senate Confirmation Hurdles

As the discussion unfolds, it's evident that Gaetz lacks substantial support within his own party, complicating his confirmation process. The Wall Street Journal’s editorial stance underscores the Senate’s right to demand transparency before proceeding with the nomination.

Toyota Customer [03:05]: (Note: This section appears to be mislabeled and represents a continuation of the main discussion.)
"The Senate has every right to demand to see the report on Mr. Gates before confirming his nomination as President-elect Trump's next attorney general."

Richard Haass [21:36]:
"He's more likely to be investigated by the next attorney general than to become the next attorney general."

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3. Wall Street Journal’s Editorial Influence

The Wall Street Journal editorial board advocates for the Senate's authority to request the report independently, highlighting widespread concerns about Gaetz's qualifications and character.

Toyota Customer [05:34]:
"All the physical evidence you need to convict him... the defense claiming the evidence was circumstantial."

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4. Impact on Donald Trump’s Attorney General Nomination

The mounting allegations and lack of bipartisan support signal significant obstacles for Gaetz, potentially derailing Trump’s appointment plans and reflecting broader challenges within the Republican Party.

Joe Scarborough [16:01]:
"But diplomatic. Oh, Richard. So, Richard, Washington is run, I mean, Washington is run on relationships."

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5. Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s Potential HHS Appointment

Shifting focus, the panel examines the possible nomination of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. to lead the HHS. Concerns revolve around his stance on vaccines and public health policies, with former Treasury official Steve Ratner providing data-driven insights.

Steve Ratner [38:17]:
"Polio really erupted in 1916 in Brooklyn with a lot of cases... the vaccines have saved millions of lives."

Steve Ratner [41:20]:
"Fluoride in drinking water has made enormous improvements in tooth health... it played a significant role."

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6. Politicization of Science and Public Health Implications

The episode highlights how science has become entangled in cultural and political conflicts, undermining public trust and complicating policy debates on critical issues like vaccination and public health initiatives.

Richard Haass [35:06]:
"The science has somehow become politicized and it's become an issue in the culture wars."

Joe Scarborough [36:02]:
"Operation Warp Speed... was one of the great achievements of the last administration that rails against science."

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7. Immigration and Trump's Deportation Plans

The conversation transitions to immigration, addressing President-elect Trump's proposed mass deportations. Former HUD Secretary Julian Castro discusses the logistical and ethical challenges, while Senator Rand Paul opposes the use of the military in domestic deportation efforts.

Julian Castro [59:22]:
"Donald Trump attempting to deport that many people... there's going to be tremendous blowback."

Senator Rand Paul [57:41]:
"I'm not in favor of sending the army in uniforms into our cities to collect people. I think it's a terrible image."

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8. Senator Rand Paul's Opposition to Military Involvement in Deportations

Senator Rand Paul explicitly condemns the idea of deploying the military for deportations, emphasizing the constitutional limitations and the potential for societal harm.

Senator Rand Paul [57:41]:
"We never have. And it's actually been illegal for over 100 years to bring the army into our city."

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9. Concluding Insights on the Political Climate

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the fragmentation within the Republican Party and the broader implications of these political maneuvers on upcoming elections and governance.

Richard Haass [67:41]:
"The ability to get that reestablished will be a major, major immigration issue."

Joe Scarborough [65:55]:
"So, Jackie, thank you so much as always. We greatly appreciate it."

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Key Takeaways:

• Matt Gaetz’s Confirmation: Gaetz faces significant opposition within the GOP and relentless scrutiny over his conduct, making his confirmation as Attorney General highly uncertain.

• Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s Nomination: Potential appointment to HHS raises alarms regarding vaccine policies and public health, with experts citing his scientifically questionable stances.

• Politicization of Science: Scientific issues have become deeply politicized, hindering effective public policy and diminishing trust in health initiatives.

• Immigration Policy Under Trump: Trump's plans for mass deportations are met with resistance even within his party, highlighting internal divisions and concerns over constitutional boundaries.

• Senator Rand Paul's Stand: Illustrates a faction within the GOP advocating for principled opposition to militarized immigration enforcement, emphasizing civil liberties.

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This episode of Morning Joe provides a nuanced exploration of the current political challenges facing the Republican Party, the integrity of scientific discourse in policymaking, and the complexities surrounding immigration reforms under the new administration.

Transcript

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[Toyota Customer]

Dear Toyota, I need a word with.

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Feeling on top of the world. But you see how this is strange for me, right? Who gets excited about traffic? This is on you, Toyota.

[Toyota Representative]

And send the captivating Toyota Crown family. Toyota. Let's go places. How have your meetings been today, sir?

[Toyota Customer]

Can we ask what your meetings.

[Joe Scarborough]

They've been going great.

[Richard Haass]

Senator's been giving me a lot of good advice. I'm looking forward to a hearing.

[Toyota Customer]

Folks have been very supportive. They've been saying we're going to get a fair process.

So it's a great day of momentum.

[Richard Haass]

For the Trump Vance administration.

[Toyota Representative]

Are you confident you could get confirmed by the Senate?

[Toyota Customer]

Do you feel it was a great day? I don't think there's any way he could get confirmed.

[Jackie Alemany]

If this is accurate, and I will tell you, I will say Matt, when he's been confronted about this, has denied.

[Toyota Customer]

It over and over and over again. If it turns out that Matt Gaetz was lying, you're going to see a.

[Jackie Alemany]

Lot of opinions change on this. It is extremely concerning.

[Toyota Customer]

It was already a very, it's already a hard push to get Matt confirmed to begin with.

[Jackie Alemany]

This is this is this. This will make things, if it comes.

[Toyota Customer]

Out that it's actually true, that is.

[Joe Scarborough]

Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen reacted to a New York Times report that details a trail of payments from Matt Gaetz to various women. Gaetz, as you saw there in the clip, was on Capitol Hill yesterday attempting to win support for his nomination for attorney general. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, November 21, with Joe and me this morning, the host of Way Too early as always, and White House bureau chief of Politico, Jonathan Lemire.

[Toyota Customer]

He's very good at his job.

[Joe Scarborough]

Outstanding.

[Toyota Customer]

He's really.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Thanks, guys.

[Joe Scarborough]

Outstanding. He's great day out.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I'm going to use you as references.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's right.

[Toyota Customer]

He is. You know, I've had some people say he's the Cal Ripken of early morning.

[Joe Scarborough]

No question.

[Toyota Customer]

Just every day he shows up. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I lose my range eventually, though, I.

[Jackie Alemany]

Have to slide to third base.

[Toyota Customer]

Will he had some more important introductions? I'm sorry.

[Joe Scarborough]

Let's finish here. Whoa. Who is the former aide of the Ed W. Bush of White House and State Department, president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, the great Richard Haass. He's the author of the weekly newsletter Home and Away, available on substack and congressional investigations. Reporter for the Washington Post, Jackie Alemani, with a lot to talk to Jackie about.

[Toyota Customer]

We have a ton to talk about. You know, there's a lot to look at in the papers really quickly. The Wall Street Journal editorial page, you know, it's the Republicans in the House may be trying to keep this from the Republicans in the Senate. And let's just make sure we say here, this isn't a Democrat versus Republican thing. This is an intramural battle between House Republicans, some House Republicans. Okay, Maybe one or two House Republicans, because the rest want this report out. And the Senate. And the Wall Street Journal editorial page says the Senate has every right to demand to see the report on Mr. Gates before confirming his nomination as President elect Trump's next attorney general. Even without the House report, the Senate could call the same witnesses to testify, and they will. And as Senator John Cornyn suggested this week, in order to do our job, we need to get access to all the information, but also to protect the president against any surprises that might damage his administration. Again, this isn't just about the Justice Department. This isn't just about America. Selfishly, it should be for Donald Trump as well, because this will be a disaster. And as the Wall Street Journal. It is a disaster. As the Wall Street Journal editorial page says, the Senate would be justified in sticking to that line, whatever the political pressures that Mr. Trump might bring to bear for a speedy confirmat on Gates and Willie, the news just keeps coming out. I mean, again, you got so many layers of problems here. He's not qualified. Nobody thinks he's qualified. Everybody says, well, let's see this report before we. Everybody knows he's not qualified for this job. Everybody knows he doesn't play well with others. The House Republican members can't stand him. I think Ari Melbur has some clips we're going to play later on about all the nasty things he said about Republican senators. Then on top of that, you have sworn testimony that he had sex with a 17 year old girl at a drug fueled orgy under oath. These people would be sent to jail if they were lying. And just. Yeah, one after another after another. I can see by the way you're looking right now that Alex is saying, why doesn't Joe let him read this story? No.

[Joe Scarborough]

We'Re going to find you the Ari Melbert clip. We're going to do that later because he did put together a whole issue.

[Toyota Customer]

But anyway, but anyway, you know, the thing is like people are going, well, we're still going to get this, that and other before we talk. I love the intro, what the senator said. Well, if these allegations are true, then he can't, he knows they're, they're true. He knows they're true and that. And everybody knows they're true based on sworn testimony where people would have been sent to jail if they were lying.

[Joe Scarborough]

Senator Mullen, who you just heard from there, he is the one who famously said that Matt Gaetz would describe how he would crush up ED medication and chase it with power drinks so he could, you know, have a longer evening. So these guys, these are, again, these are.

[Toyota Customer]

Richard, that doesn't happen in America. Good morning America.

[Joe Scarborough]

Forgive me. I wandered down that path and then realized there was no turning back. But that's what he said. But again, as you say, these are Republicans, John, who do not miss a chance to find a microphone to criticize Matt Gaetz. It's personal on many levels. But also in this case, they're saying this report is crushing. This report would eliminate, if one or two details in the report were true, this would end anyone else's nomination or potential nomination. So we will see how much more capital Donald Trump wants to spend. Again, he's pushing these. How far can I push these guys and these women in the Republican Party and at the moment on Matt Gaetz, at least they seem to be saying Matt Gaetz is the line for us.

[Toyota Customer]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Even before this nomination, it was well known the House and Senate just how much fellow Republicans despised Matt Gaetz. And in a process like this, you need some friends. He doesn't really have any. JD Vance did take him around the Hill yesterday. They had some meetings with senators, but they were notably noncommittal to his nomination. And you're right, I mean, this is, Trump is trying to push this and he's got a number of controversial picks, but it seems like the Senate is standing up against this one. Now as we'll get into the House Ethics Committee. Republicans on the committee voted to block the release of this report yesterday. But there is a widely held belief it will see the light of day. And we heard from the Senate yesterday, including from Republicans in the Senate, saying we need to see that so that report will emerge. But even were it not, there is serious questions about his qualifications, serious questions about his character. And Trump is trying to push his allies as far as he can in the upper chamber here. But we're seeing some real resistance here. I'm told for last night that Gates his nomination deeply in doubt.

[Toyota Customer]

Well, and again, the Wall Street Journal editorial page brings up a great point. Even if they don't release it in the House, it gets worse for him because they bring the witnesses live to Capitol Hill. So this meltdown, you know, can occur on, on live television with live witnesses. Nobody, nobody should want that to happen in the Trump administration. And I doubt the AG nominee would want that to happen. I don't, I'm not exactly sure what this stance is like, do they? I mean, if they're going to do try a recess appointment and start a constitutional crisis, they go that way. But why trot this around? This, this ends badly any way you cut it.

[Advertiser]

I think we also are just missing what this is about at the end of the day. You had a fulfilled FBI background investigation when I had one. And they're going back to your hometown and talking to the preacher and checking with everyone. It's not because they care about your morality. They care about if your morality leads you to become compromised. And this is about not wanting a sex addict, not wanting a drug addict to have control the nation's top secrets at the end of the day. And so that's why this is kind of a little bit important. And it's not about morality at the end of the day.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. And to your point, Joe, Senator Mike Rounds, Republican again of South Dakota, said, all right, if you don't release the report, we can relive this whole thing in a hearing. We'll do our own investigation. This position as attorney general is too important. So we'll see where this ends. The document attained by the New York Times shows federal investigators have traced payments between Matt Gaetz and women who say they were paid by the former congressman to have sex with them. According to the Times, the document shows how Gaetz and a friend send thousands of dollars through Venmo to dozens of people who claim to be involved in sex parties from 2017 to 2020. Those people have reportedly testified to federal and congressional investigators, sources familiar with the Case tell the Times. Among those who receive payments was a woman who was 17 years old when she attended one of those parties. The Times reports the document, which uses thumbnail photos of Gates as well as various women and men to show how payments flowed between them, was assembled when the Justice Department was investigating.

[Toyota Customer]

That looks awfully complicated.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's a lot of.

[Toyota Customer]

That is. That is. There are a lot of. There are a lot of lines right there. A lot of activity on Venmo.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's Russell Crowe and a Beautiful Mind level line on a chart, though. Although the DOJ declined to file charges, the Times reports the House Ethics Committee was given a copy. The chart does not show what the payments were for. NBC News has not been able to independently verify that document. A lawyer for two women who testified that Gates hired them for sex says their payments totaled about $10,000 and that they were typically given about 200 to $500 for each encounter. In a statement to the Times, the communications director for President elect Trump claimed the material was classified and purposefully leaked to smear Gates. According to the Times, there are no classified markings on the document. No reason there would be. Gates has declined all allegations of sexual misconduct.

[Toyota Customer]

Yeah, that's. That, that's piling up there. And, and again, here's the thing. You know, right now the House speaker and others are trying to be clever, going, oh, we're not going to release the report. Actually, releasing the report would be better than reliving it on the Hill in a Senate committee with everybody seeing it. And Jackie, I mean, that's, that actually would be the worst case scenario for the incoming president, the worst case scenario for Republican supporters. You talk about an. A needless distraction which the Wall Street Journal has talked about. Karl Rove yesterday talked about how the first week of nominations went well, and then he came to Gates, which I think he said was a colossally bad selection. Again, you wonder how much scar tissue they're going to want to take on over this with the New York Post, the Wall Street Journal editorial page, Republican senators all saying this guy is not fit to be Attorney General.

[Toyota Representative]

Whether or not Matt Gaetz or Republicans want this report to come out, details of it, and perhaps the most lurid and salacious details of it are going to inevitably come out because of exactly what you just laid out. The women, the witnesses, some of the women who were previously 17 years old when they had an encounter, a sexual encounter with Matt Gaetz, they are going to be called as witnesses to testify before the committee, although their lawyers have told us. Ext. Over the past two weeks that they really want to avoid doing so. And I think that's why we're seeing them sort of make this public, these public appearances over the past few days to lay out some of the allegations that their clients have made behind closed doors. And now, while we didn't confirm that document that was obtained by the New York Times, which really shows the breadth of the investigation in a way that we haven't seen before, that was ultimately cleared and dropped by the Justice Department two years ago in 2022. They ultimate decided that the witnesses there were some credibility issues with the witnesses and didn't pursue charges against Gates. We did obtain exhibits that were shown to the House Ethics Committee and provided to the Justice Department as a part of that investigation that showed some of The Venmos and PayPal requests and payments that were given to some of these women who testified that they were paid for sex by Matt Gaetz. This is outside of the allegations of sex trafficking of Matt Gaetz having a sexual encounter with a minor. There were 27 different PayPal payments and Venmo payments that were shown in these exhibits that totaled nearly $10,000. The notes next to those payments were sort of a variety of descriptions ranging from love you to gifts to cartridges. But in the past few days when we've been in conversations with the lawyers for these clients, they have been very clear that Gates was paying them at sometimes for sex and also to have sex with other at these drug fueled sex parties.

[Joe Scarborough]

So, Jackie, as you know, Matt Gaetz is not popular among his colleagues on Capitol Hill. He's made a habit of insulting lawmakers, his colleagues, including those who will vote on his nomination. Here's that montage we were talking about from our friends at the beat with Ari Melba. They put it together last night showing Gates trashing his Capitol Hill colleagues while he was in office.

[Toyota Customer]

We have Murkowski and Collins rejecting the duties that they have as senators and if they do that, their voters should reject them. AR leadership, frankly, is in shambles. You've got McConnell wavering. Speaking of fools. Republican Senator and neoconservative Mark wayne mullen. Mitch McConnell's real legacy is that he was missing in action when we needed him most and spent a lot of his time in the Senate putting special interests above American interests. My advice going forward is that the.

Republican leadership doesn't need to pick one of the Johns.

John Thune, John Cornyn, John Barrasso. I think that there are going to.

Be better options than the Johns.

Senator Tillis trying get another Blank check.

For a corrupt country.

It's, it's disappointing. There's a certain hubris to all of it. I counted eight.

[Joe Scarborough]

We're counting on our hand.

[Toyota Customer]

That's eight right there.

[Joe Scarborough]

And we had to go to a second hand.

[Toyota Customer]

And those are recent insults.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. Eight senators that he's trashed. And those are just the ones in that, in that one moment, he's done a lot more of that. So, Jackie, as you look at this process and understanding Capitol Hill so well, it seems like Speaker Johnson is kind of giving the Ethics Committee some space, saying they need to continue their discussion and decide whether they're going to let that report go public. If they don't, there's a chance somewhere greater than 100% that it will find the light of day into the media, most likely. So how do you see this playing out with pressure applied From Trump and J.D. vance on the top, but such almost universal disdain for Gates in the Congress?

[Toyota Representative]

Yeah, well, you cannot understate the amount of vitriol that the majority of House Republicans and some Senate Republicans have for Matt Gaetz. But there is one extremely important ally that he has and someone he's fostered a really close relationship with since 2016, really became one of his top allies and most outspoken advocates really early on in the Trump administration, and that is Donald Trump. This is someone who is not going to withdraw his support for him. They're going to go through this process and they've actually demonstrated in the past few days that they're going to take a more persuasion approach rather than the scorched earth approach that I think we could imagine this leading into. But with what happen with the House Ethics Committee yesterday was a little bit surprising considered all of the, again, vitriol that's been directed toward Gates with none of his House Republicans who are, who sit on this panel of 10 members who could vote to release the report, voting in favor of releasing it. You saw Susan Wild come out yesterday after the two hour meeting of deliberations saying there was no agreement not to disclose the report, that it was inaccurate for Michael Guest, the chairman of the committee, to say that there was agreement. This has sort of kicked the can down the road. The House Ethics Committee is going to meet again December 5th. But it's possible this is going to come to a head prior to December 5th. Now you have members, two Democratic members. You have Representative Steve Cohen and Sean Kasten who have both called to one, preserve the documents in order that this report somehow makes it potentially to the Senate Judiciary Committee. That's A separate process that seems very likely to happen if it stays behind closed doors. And then two, for this to be brought to the House floor through a privileged resolution. So this would force a vote of all of the House to call on their members to release this report. So Democrats are trying to make this come out one way or the other. And you are seeing some Republicans, one by one, incrementally, say they're going to have discussions with Mike Johnson behind closed doors about this, because they do want this to be a part of the process and feel like it's important for it to be a part of the process.

[Toyota Customer]

Well, as the old Midas ad says, you can pay me now or you can pay me later. And it actually gets worse later because again, you talk about some hearings. Whoa. And I will tell you, I mean, he called the Oklahoma senator a fool. Speaking of fools. I mean, and you go down all the list of all the insults there, and those are just the ones that Ari picked out. That's going to be a problem. So that's an understatement. That's going to be a problem. So diplomatic. Oh, Richard. So, Richard, Washington is run, I mean, Washington is run on relationships. I mean, I, you know, I, you know, had one of the most conservative voting records in Washington, D.C. like I've said, I had 95% ACU rating. Every time I got on the House floor, I walked over to the Democratic side, I talked to people I disagreed with. I made sure I built really good relations there. And that's how you get things done. And also, you find out when things go sideways, you know, your friends, you got friends there to stick with you. And he just doesn't have that talk about Washington. You've been doing this for a very long time and how important it is to have those relationships. And even if you're not great at having relationships, not insulting everybody that you come across in Washington, D.C. yeah.

[Richard Haass]

Look, the bottom line is he's more likely to be investigated by the next attorney general than to become the next attorney general. So let's just start that. And in no small part because of what you just say, he doesn't have to say. He doesn't have a reservoir support is a generous way of putting it. He's got one relationship, which is Donald Trump. And that's what's so interesting to me about this. It's almost the tension between those two, the one relationship he has and the many relationships he doesn't have. And so the question is, how does that play out? How long does the Trump team stick with him. To what extent, you know, I'd like to know, were they surprised by any of this? What was the vetting process? Did they, is there anything that's happened or could happen that they said, wow, we didn't count on that, or we didn't say that, see that coming, or did they see all of it coming and said, let's press ahead regardless? And we were talking about it before. One of the interesting things of this, again, I don't think he's going to make it is to what extent does this help a lot of the other people? How much appetite do people in Washington have to take on two, three, four of these nominees, regardless of their lack of fitness? And that could also be, again, whether it was the original strategy or not, my own view is it may become sort of this part of the strategy, let this play out. And even though it's costly, as Karl Rove pointed out, if it attracts enough incoming, then a lot of other people may survive.

[Toyota Customer]

Well, you know, here's the problem for the three or four nominees that are just, as Karl Rove said, completely radioactive. And that is there are going to be a lot. Everybody's going to be concerned about Matt Gaetz, right? But then if you're a Republican who spent your entire life, adult life, working on intel issues, you're going to be just as concerned about Tulsi Gabbard. And there's likely going to be four Republicans that are going to vote against Tulsi Gabbard. And then, you know, if you're concerned about the dod, it's so funny, we had Admiral Stravitas here and we were talking about Gates. He said, well, no, I'm concerned about the DOD pick. And you go down the line for these three or four, I actually think Bobby Kennedy Jr. Is going to get through. I think that may be the one that in normal times may have had had problems, but for these three, and again, it's not the same people having problems. Everybody has problems with the Gates nomination for a thousand different reasons. But you talk to people that are not armed services, they're just in meltdown mode. Republicans about the DoD pick and again, Tulsi Gabbard for intel community. So I want to get to Elise, but first, just some quick reporting. And Richard was saying he was wondering whether the Trump transition team were surprised by some of these things, especially with Gates and the DoD selection. Your reporting and other reporting said yes, they were surprised by both of those things with Gates, especially the report that came out today where it was going to come out two days before he.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Some of this Gates mature stuff was known. Other parts came as a surprise to the Trump transition team. The Hegseth allegation and the sexual assault claim in California completely blindsided them. And that's in part because, Richard, to your question, they're not going through the standard vetting processes. They're not using the FBI. They've hired private companies to do this. And there's real concerns that the vetting they're doing is minimal at best, in part because and Julio Nicastro, the former HUD secretary who was on with us way too early a few moments ago, noted that that's perhaps in part to avoid the possibility of lying to the FBI to shield their nominees from doing that as well as, of course, we know Donald Trump's long held distrust of that agency. So that is a real problem here, is the lack of vetting. And it wasn't a calculated strategy to have Gates be a sacrificial lamb. I mean, we're told the president elect wants this pick through, but there is a possibility that maybe what happens because he's taken so much of the heat, that might allow some of the others to slide through. But Joe, to your point, and Hegseth and Gabbard in particular are, are ones that other Republicans are having real issues with. So I wouldn't say their nomination, their confirmations are sure either, though it'll be a test of how much the Republican Senate feels like they could stand up.

[Toyota Customer]

I just think right now the Gates election is just right here in front of everybody, and the testimony against him is so universally damning, they're not looking beyond that. So I think that's first in line. And I actually would guess that probably the intel community would probably have more trouble with Tulsi Gabbard than even the DOD pick. I'm not saying people aren't having a lot of trouble. I'm just saying that I've talked to so many Republicans that have spent their entire life in the intel world that just say we can't have somebody that's an apologist for Assad, that's an apologist for Putin. And there. So again, I'm talking about Republicans here. I'd be surprised if there are for Republicans that wouldn't vote against that selection. So have a lot of things here. So on the DoD selection, I only keep calling that because I still can't pronounce Hegseth Pete. I call him Pete. Pete Hegseth. So let's get. I've seen the cowboy hat enough let's get another picture and that. I've seen that enough. No, no, I don't like that one. TJ let's get him without cowboy hats or Fox fan things on his head. He at least deserves that. All right. Our photo editors. So the problem is Wall Street Journal editorial page said, I think it was yesterday is that it's a he said, she said. All right, so he said, she said. The details are seemed really shocking. He denies everything though. Right. But as they said. Okay, so let's just put it over here as a he said, she said. The bigger question, Wall Street Journal, I believe was editorial page or Karl Rove, but one of them said is the bigger question is did he tell the president elect, did he tell the transition team that he had this? Was it the Wall Street Journal editorial page?

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Toyota Customer]

Okay. The editorial board said bigger question here is, okay, we'll put the he said, she said over there. It looks bad, but he's denying everything. Question is, did he actually tell the president elect before the nomination was made? And if he didn't, well, that's almost reason enough to say, well, what else is out there?

[Advertiser]

Well, the reporting is that he didn't. And yes, it is he said, she said. But I would add in the huge but caveat with a payment and money talks. And why would you shell out if you're innocent? Why don't you fight for your innocence instead of paying out a victim?

[Joe Scarborough]

Also has to be said the idea that the Trump transition team was, quote, surprised by the allegations against Matt Gaetz is a little implausible considering it's been a three year investigation in the House of Representatives. That's one phone call to anybody to find out what's really going on there. And to put all this in perspective, the idea that Bobby Kennedy in relation to all these other ones now seems like the easy, sane pick to run.

[Toyota Customer]

Hhs, which the New York Post, the New York Post has called what a nut job, a supreme nut job. And by the way, they keep, they will say the New York Post editorial pages keep going after this. You certainly would expect this from the Wall Street Journal editorial page, but you would not expect, I mean, I don't know. And these are crazy. So maybe you would expect it from the New York Post editorial page. I'm just saying it is so offensive to two conservatives, to Republicans, to people who supported Donald Trump, that they're going day in and day out saying move past these crazy nominations.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, it's been a sustained campaign by the New York Post against a lot of these nominees, but very interesting from a Rupert Murdoch owned outlet. We're going to talk much more about this. Jackie Alemani still with us. Coming up on Morning Joe, we're learning about the new weapons package the Biden administration is sending to Ukraine before Donald Trump takes office. Plus, Steve Rattner will break down Robert F. Kennedy Jr. S potential plans for the Health and Human Service.

[Toyota Customer]

Speaking of photo editors, that is an ominous picture right there.

[Joe Scarborough]

Wow, they get some going through the impact all of this will have on public health if Kennedy is confirmed to lead that agency. Morning Joe's coming back in 90 seconds.

[Toyota Representative]

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[Toyota Customer]

US residents only been a crusader on.

[Toyota Representative]

Questioning vaccines are There specific vaccines that.

[Jackie Alemany]

You would seek to take off the market.

[Toyota Customer]

Oh, I'm not gonna.

[Jackie Alemany]

I'm not gonna take away anybody's vaccines. I've never been an anti vaccine. I've just. You will not take any vaccine that.

[Toyota Representative]

Is currently on the market.

[Jackie Alemany]

I'm not. If somebody. If vaccines are working for somebody, I'm.

[Toyota Customer]

Not going to take them away. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I got to talk about this. You know, this is what you call the soft bigotry of low expectations. I'm about to read a script. I don't usually do it right because Mick is here and we don't have many scripts, but so Mr. Cornell Grad says to me, and I want to know, first of all, when has Cornell ever beaten the Crimson Tide in football? But anyway, fair question. That's a fair question.

[Joe Scarborough]

We just got pads last week.

[Toyota Customer]

What's that?

[Joe Scarborough]

We just got pads last week. So. Leather helmets.

[Toyota Customer]

Leather helmets, everything. By the way, the word you pronounce it exacerbate. Wow. It's like my mom, when she. When she was younger, she visited Pennsylvania to visit some relatives, and they were surprised because she was from the south that she was wearing shoes. And here we are, all these years later. We have gotten no further.

[Joe Scarborough]

What did the former Congressman Peter King used to say to you? Like you walked out barefoot from a revival.

[Toyota Customer]

Exactly. So Peter, at the time, was quite the defense, I would say, of the ira. And we were having a big battle on whether the President of the United States should meet at Jerry Adams. And I said, I don't think he should. I think it's an insult. Blah, blah, blah. Of course, hot. I said, too loud. Or even arms too much. And they asked Peter King. He goes, yeah, Joe Scarborough just walked out of a toot revival in Northwest Florida without his shoes on. So don't listen to him. And I didn't know Pete before that. I went up to him and this is like the personality thing. I went up to him and I laughed. I go, that may have been the greatest quote I've ever seen in the Washington Post. And Pete and I became fast friends. There you go.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's how you do it.

[Toyota Customer]

That's how you do it. And by the way, it's nicer to be friends than not. Listen, there is right here, and we're going to go to Steve Ratner at the southwest wall because the kids, literally, he's pacing over. The kids are. Are rushing down the stairs because they're like, mommy, Daddy.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. You can hear the little footsteps.

[Toyota Customer]

Uncle Stevie's on, Uncle Stevie's on. But before I get there, there's a front page column in the article in the Wall Street Journal and it's, it's fascinating. And this is something we all have to grapple with as a country. How science Lost America's Trust. Voters angry over COVID 19 measures pressures backed Trump's election of RFK Jr. You know, we talk about so many different things that have had an impact in, and you know, the cost of groceries, the cost of gas we talked about on the social issues. That ad that was played 30,000 times and the impact it may have had on men. This, this really does seem to be the sleeper issue. That's more like, it just sort of sets, it sort of sets the environment of this election. There's such blowback against all of the shutdowns.

[Richard Haass]

Not just shutdowns, but the more basic things science. What's so interesting, Joe, is science has somehow become a cultural issue. I think about it. You see it, we saw it during the COVID pandemic. We also see it on climate change. It's elitists who are saying the science says X, Y and Z and therefore we should resist it. So the politicization, it's another good word. It's right up there with exactly.

[Joe Scarborough]

You nailed it.

[Toyota Customer]

Boom. You're good.

[Richard Haass]

Thank you. But the science has somehow become politicized and it's become an issue in the culture wars, which makes it incredibly difficult now to have serious public policy debates about these issues because those who are promoting the science are seen as somehow with agendas and as elites.

[Toyota Customer]

And the impact, you said you've been in meetings and people talking about how some of the proposals could just devastate R and D companies.

[Richard Haass]

Oh, yeah. Grants coming out of the National Institutes of Health could have a real impact on universities and the basic research there.

[Toyota Customer]

On Alzheimer's, on zillion things.

[Richard Haass]

And a lot of scientists are saying if we can't get the grants, if we can't get public support, then we're leaving because this is our livelihood and if we can't do this life saving research here, we're going to, if you will, as Lebron would say, take our talents elsewhere.

[Toyota Customer]

We'll go to London. We'll go to London. Elsewhere. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

I mean, I have to say, for all his failings in defense of science during the pandemic, the Operation Warp Speed under President Donald Trump was one of the great achievements of the last. I don't know, many, many generations that got the vaccine in so many people. And saved so many lives. That was an achievement of the Trump administration that rails against science.

[Toyota Customer]

And the strange thing is he can't actually say that in front of his crowds like any other president with any other presidential library. You would walk in and that would be the first thing because you remember at the beginning of the pandemic, what were we hearing? Oh, if we ever get a vaccine, it'll take seven, nine, 12 years. You talk to any scientist and they will tell you the fact that there was a vaccine within a year, one of the more remarkable scientific achievements ever. I mean, take it back to the polio vaccine because so many lives were at stake. So and the crazy thing is he can't even talk about it. He tried to remember that Bill O'Reilly talk that they had and he started talking about it. I think Bill O'Reilly started talking about, hey, this is a pretty good thing. And the crowd started booing for again after the white hot heat of all of this. 30, 40, 50 years from now, people will look back and they'll go, okay, that was an extraordinary scientific achievement.

[Joe Scarborough]

Operation Warp Speed. Speaking of vaccines, let's talk about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. You heard a moment ago what he's been telling, what he told a while ago, Vaughn Hilliard of NBC, that he's never been anti experts still concerned. If Kennedy is confirmed by the Senate to be the nation's top health official, he will exacerbate the already concerning rise of vaccine hesitancy in the United States. Joining us now, former treasury official Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Ratner. Steve, Bobby Kennedy sort of hides behind being a skeptic of vaccines. Therefore he feels he can say he's not anti vax. But let's walk through some of the data behind all this. Your first chart is about what vaccines actually do, which we need to remind people of these days.

[Toyota Customer]

Yeah.

[Jackie Alemany]

And you guys covered a bit of this. Joe actually could have come over to the southeast wall for his comments because he would have had some charts to help him along. But let's just talk about polio first being perhaps the most famous case. Polio really erupted in 1916 in Brooklyn with a lot of cases. But then it took off again when FDR, remember FDR got polio in 1921 and that spurred the first effort to really develop a vaccine. Some of us may remember the March of Dimes where everybody gave a dime to develop a polio vaccine. Coincidentally, you had a huge spike in polio in the 1940s. In 1955, the polio vaccine was licensed. I want to Inject. A personal note here. I was one of the first cohorts of people to get injected. And I remember well, how excited and relieved my parents were that their kids were not going to have to worry about polio. And polio, lo and behold, dropped to zero cases today. And the red line here are the deaths of which there were a significant number. You guys mentioned Covid and Operation War Speed, an amazing accomplishment. A vaccine developed in less than a year. And we have really good data comparing people who got the vaccine to people who didn't get the vaccine. And you can see the weekly death rate. This is the Omicron surge, which we all remember all too well. Unfortunately, this is the death rate for people who did not get the vaccine. This is the death rate way down here for the people who did get the vaccine. And for people who got the booster, an even lower death rate.

[Joe Scarborough]

So your next chart, Steve, as we move across the wall, is some of the other benefits that come from vaccines to our society. What are you looking at there?

[Jackie Alemany]

Yeah, so again, we went down a similar path with a lot of other childhood diseases. Again, I grew up in a world where all these diseases, not smallpox, but most of these diseases were ones that we were susceptible to as kids. But look what's happened. On an average of about 530,000 cases a year of measles back in the 20th century, we've dropped down to 47. 99% drop. Whooping cough, similarly, mumps, 99%. Rubella, which is also called German measles, 99%. We've essentially eradicated smallpox everywhere in the world, which is an amazing accomplishment. Polio, zero. And then that has had a significant impact on childhood mortality rates around the world. Essentially, this is the death rate of infants under the age of one. It's dropped from 10% back in 1974 to about 2.8%. I believe that is in 2024. And this is what scientists estimate the death rate would be without vaccines. 101 million. Call it 100 million infants around the world have been saved over this period of time because of vaccine rollouts around the world.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, so let's move over to your final chart. Steve, some other concerns. If Bobby Kennedy does get this job at hhs, he has talked repeatedly about taking fluoride out of the water, another of the great accomplishments of the last century. What are you looking at there?

[Jackie Alemany]

Yeah, this is also in the anti science, ignorance, whatever category you want to put it in. But fluoride and drinking water has made enormous improvements in tooth health. So you can see here the percent of people who are drinking fluoridated water. This was a study done between 1967 and 1992 by the Centers for Disease Control. The percentage of people drinking fluoridated water rose from 40% to just about 50%. The average number of decayed teeth dropped like that from about 4 to about 1.4, if I remember correctly. Yeah, 1.4. And it's not all fluoride, of course. Better care of teeth and so on and so forth. But every health expert would tell you fluoridated water played a significant role in that. Let me, though, turn to an issue in which Bobby Kennedy actually is on the right side of, frankly, in my opinion, which is the whole, or at least partially because he's got some other ideas around this that are less sensible, perhaps. But on the issue of food and what kids eat and obesity. And so we have had an upsurge in type 2 diabetes among children. It used to be considered an adult onset disease. It is happening more and more among children. It is closely linked to obesity. And that of course, we know what the nutritional issues are for kids. Not surprisingly, kids of color have had a much higher rate of childhood diabetes and a much faster growth in it. We have a huge nutrition and weight problem in our country among kids. And this is actually an issue in which I think there's some agreement. I'm not sure, I'm not sure taking food dyes out of kids cereals is really part of this, but certainly the cereals and McDonald's and all the rest of that is contributing heavily to this.

[Toyota Customer]

Well, I mean, Steve, we'll see what happens there. When Michelle Obama and Michael Bloomberg talked about obesity and the like, they were hammered by conservatives saying, don't tell us what to eat. The thing about obesity, though, especially childhood obesity, but obesity in general, it is such a massive issue. It is such a massive health care issue. It is also a massive fiscal issue. The costs of Medicare and Medicaid would plummet, would plummet if we seriously addressed obesity. So I'm with you. If there is a renewed focus on childhood obesity from whoever is the next HHS director, that's obviously an important thing. And also, I don't know, this is radical, getting like kids in school out running, exercising, like, you know, everybody's so competitive and how am I going to get into this school or that school? Yeah, that's great, do that. But you got a better chance to study exercise, you know, if you're out there exercising. If schools make their students move more And I always remember Jay, speaking of Kennedy, I always remember JFK's Presidential Fitness Award or whatever when we were growing up that encouraged kids to get out there and exercise. And now this is where you respond, Steve, Steve it's the first time he's done this, so you know he's going to be good. Second or third time. I'm joking, Steve.

[Jackie Alemany]

Yeah, of course, Sherry, you're absolutely right. And I also do remember the Kennedy challenge. I think it was called to get us all out to exercise. And the obesity problem is much more than a child problem and it's much more than a type diabetes problem. It is, as you say, it's adding massively to our healthcare costs, massively to our Medicare costs. And it's something that we need to do something about. But again, as you also said quite correctly, the Trump administration rejects anything that they can categorize as being the nanny state. They just simply don't believe government should get in the way. And by the way, when you talk about things like fluoride in the water, there's enormous pushback, particularly out west on fluoride in the water. And they're actually taking fluoride out of the water in certain places. And so this sort of anti healthcare, anti science mentality that exists in certain parts of our country, among certain parts of, of our citizenry, I think is really scary and dangerous. This vaccine stuff, how can you possibly say that vaccines are a bad idea? We invented the smallpox vaccine. The first one was 1796. It wiped out smallpox over time with a lot of help from Bill Gates and others. But think about it. Would you like to have smallpox back?

[Toyota Customer]

No. Steve Ratner, thank you so much. My bad, bad assist to you on that last question. Thank you. These are fascinating choice. I think they're extraordinarily important. We greatly appreciate it, as always. A couple things. First of all, Oregon, I think, has taken fluoride out of water. So Oregon, if you're running for office in Oregon, you're for legalized drugs and people being like taking hard drugs in public parks. And you're for people being able to ransack downtown Portland and drive out small businesses. Right? But you against fluoride. I mean, seriously, who is wanting Oregon? It's a question I've been asking for about a decade now. It's insane. I want to talk about vaccines just for one second before we go to break because this is so fascinating and also just shows the stupidity of politics in so many, in so many cases before COVID and before this, actually, science became such A white hot issue. You. For a variety of reasons. States like Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, they were the most vaccinated states in America. And I come to you in Mississippi because Mississippi didn't even have a religious exception. And of course, that was the big debate during COVID where we must have a religious exception. You're crushing our First Amendment rights. Yeah, our. Yeah, First Amendment right. And yet Mississippi and these other states, especially southern states, no exceptions. If you want to go to school, if you want to live among all of us, you're going to take vaccines. And of course, in all of those states, you saw the numbers drop. Those happened during COVID to be the most resistant to taking vaccines. And the numbers per capita in a lot of those states, very, very discouraging.

[Advertiser]

You know, it's a real tragedy because it was a public, public health triumph that in Mississippi, it was one of the best places in the entire country for childhood vaccinations.

[Toyota Customer]

It was a source of problem.

[Advertiser]

There were so many of our health indicators that lagged. But this, we were number one in. And you would just go, everyone went to the local county health care department and you got jabbed. And that was that. If you were going to go to school, any school, private, public, anything. And now, you know, with the politicization of science, this is where we are. And it's really sad that we're turning our back on science and modernity with fluoride, with all these human advances, with women's healthcare to a large extent, because of just politics.

[Toyota Customer]

Right. And of course, Willie, two things can be true at one time. You know, there could have been bad mistakes made during the pandemic. People making, I say bad mistakes make. It was like the fog of war. War. This was a once in a century. This is a once in a century pandemic. They didn't know what they were fighting against. They didn't know what was going to work. And so, yeah, you look back, in any war, they're going to be bad mistakes made. But you can put that on one side and let's say what happened there, let's figure that out. But don't discourage kids in Mississippi and Louisiana and Alabama and across the country to follow the lead of like hippies in Northern California and commune. That's a funny thing. We used to make fun. I mean, we conservatives used to make fun of the anti vax hippies, and now it's actually the conservatives who made fun of them going, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna have some of that, please.

[Joe Scarborough]

A lot of that too is not about science. It's about schools were closed too long, objectively.

[Toyota Customer]

Exactly.

[Joe Scarborough]

They were closed too long. Kids should have been back in school. But we learned that as we went, businesses didn't need to be closed in many cases as long as they were. I think a lot of Americans objected to the idea that they had to stay home. They couldn't go to their grandmother's funeral, but people go out and protest in the streets in massive numbers and do that. So I think that's a little science, definitely, but a lot about a feeling of hypocrisy and other things that were mixed in there. And it has to be said about Bobby Kennedy Jr. As he tries to soften his stance to say, no, no, I'm not anti vax. He has compared the childhood vaccine regimen in this country to his word, a holocaust against our children. And a lot of that is tied to autism and debunked and disproven theories that he and others have. So just pay close attention to his views as we move forward. Coming up here, Republican Senator and Trump ally Rand Paul is warning against part of the President elect's mass deportation. We'll play for you his new remarks about that and we'll speak with the former member of the Obama cabinet, Julian Castro. That's next on Morning Joe.

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[Joe Scarborough]

A verdict came down yesterday in a case that became a focal point in the national debate over crime and immigration during the presidential election. An undocumented migrant accused of killing a nursing student in Georgia earlier this year named Laken Riley was found guilty and sentenced to life without parole. NBC News correspondent Priya Shridhar has more.

[Toyota Customer]

I'll now announce the verdict after a.

[Toyota Representative]

Trial that lasted four days. 26 year old Jose Antonio Imbarra sentenced to life without parole for the brutal killing of 22 year old Laken Riley.

[Toyota Customer]

There is no end to the pain, suffering and loss that we have experienced.

[Toyota Representative]

Or will continue to endure. Her family and loved ones emotional Seeing the police body camera video showing the moment Lake and Riley's mother first learned her daughter died, prosecutors say the nursing student was out for a morning jog on the University of Georgia campus in February when Ibarra, who was lurking in the woods nearby, attempted to rape her and then killed her. Not only does the physical evidence identify.

[Toyota Customer]

Him, the video evidence identifies him.

[Toyota Representative]

Despite numerous studies that indicate undocumented immigrants commit fewer crimes, the case has become a flashpoint in the national debate over immigration during the presidential election cycle. Ibarra, an undocumented immigrant from Venezuela right.

[Toyota Customer]

Here in Georgia, our nation, was robbed of a brilliant 22 year old nursing student. Lake and Riley.

[Toyota Representative]

During the trial, the state presenting surveillance video showing Laken Riley's final moments, her last text message to her mother and her attack to call 911 before Ibarra attacked her. He did fight and it is a.

[Joe Scarborough]

Direct result of that fight that gives.

[Toyota Customer]

You all the physical evidence you need to convict him.

[Toyota Representative]

Prosecutors say Ibarra's DNA was found underneath Riley's fingernails, his thumbprint on her phone and Riley's DNA on his jacket he wore when he committed the crime. Prosecutors say this surveillance video shows Ibarra discarding the jacket. The defense claiming the evidence was circumstantial and pointing the finger at Abara's brother Riley's family, remembering her as a kind, selfless, loving friend and daughter, the best.

[Toyota Customer]

Daughter, sister, granddaughter, friend, an overall person that you could ever Hope to meet.

[Joe Scarborough]

NBC's Priya Shridhar reporting for us there. Obviously, Lake and Riley's name was at center of the campaign, the presidential campaign, Donald Trump invoking her name many times. Just a horrific tragedy for a bright young star who is kind of just beginning her life.

[Toyota Customer]

I mean, one that any parent, one that any, well, any of us, any of us, just can't imagine the absolute heartache. It's unspeakable. And you know, Willie, as we move toward next year and a new president, a new Senate, a new House, I suspect that if there is a middle path here, it is going to be to go after violent, critical criminals and other criminals that have committed serious crimes. That may be a middle path to get those illegal immigrants, immigrants out of the country. I'm not saying that, you know, Donald Trump promised bloody mass deportation. He also, I'm sure Republicans remember what happened when there were those scenes of mothers and children being separated, the impact that had in the 2018 off year elections. It is a loser. Even if Americans agree they want deportations, nobody, Republicans or Democrats, want a repeat of that. And I think this is where it starts, a middle ground to find the violent criminals, find others, illegal immigrants who have gotten into this country and who I think 95% of Americans would say should be deported.

[Joe Scarborough]

Tom Homan, who is the newly appointed border czar for Donald Trump, has said that will begin on day one. And he has said again and again in recent interviews, we're going after the bad guys. We're gonna go right now. That's a pretty vague term. What level of criminal are you gonna pursue using ICE? We will find out soon. Joining us now, former U.S. secretary of Housing and Urban Development Julian Castro. He's an MSNBC political analyst. Good morning. Great to have you with us. So one of Donald Trump's longtime allies actually is speaking out against the president elect's plan to use the military as part of that mass deportation of undocumented migrants. Here's what Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky said yesterday in an interview with Newsmax.

[Toyota Customer]

I'm not in favor of sending the army in uniforms into our cities to collect people. I think it's a terrible image. And that's not what we use our military for. We never have. And it's actually been illegal for over 100 years to bring the army into our city. I'm all for or remain in Mexico. I will not support an emergency to put the army into our cities. I think that's a huge mistake. So, Elise, you are, I hope this is right. You're a libertarian slash conservative. And that is that ideological strain runs through, still runs through this Republican Party. I would guess that's not just one standalone senator. That's a big chunk of Republicans who voted for Republican candidates, Donald Trump, Senators, House members that have always warned about the military getting into the streets of American cities.

[Advertiser]

Well, and I'll give Senator Rand Paul props for coming out and saying it in opposition to Donald Trump and staking out his territory as he's going to be the new head of the Senate Homeland Security Committee. And other Republicans hopefully can follow his lead and say, yes, we want violent criminals removed from the country, but we don't want mass deportations that are using the military in the way that it was not intended by the founders to be used.

[Joe Scarborough]

So, Mr. Secretary, when you look at the plans as they've been floated out there, which they're Talking about getting 11 million illegal immigrants out of this country by force in many cases, what are you expecting? What are you preparing for here?

[Toyota Customer]

Well, I think you have to be prepared for Donald Trump attempting to deport that many people. You never know with Donald Trump whether it's bluster. He said that we were going to build the wall and Mexico was going to pay for it. Of course, that didn't happen. There was actually very little of the wall that was built in his administration. Mexico definitely didn't pay for it. But this has been a fantasy of his, this mass deportation for a while. And it's true that he has a team now around him with more experience and more know how on how to get this done. Also control of all the levers of government now and a Supreme Court that is more supportive of him. So there's already significant pushback from the aclu, from other legal groups providing services, also to undocumented immigrants who are in the process of trying to become documented. I think there's going to be pushback from local police chiefs who don't want their police departments to become immigration agents because they feel like that's going to make communication communities less safe. And I agree with you all that to the extent that the administration sticks with a much more limited plan of people who are violent criminals, you know, it was good to see justice for Lake and Riley's family. I think people agree with that. If there's somebody who commits a crime like that, no matter what their status is, they should be punished for that. But I think when you, when you get into, for instance, saying somebody that has a speeding ticket from 20 years ago, who otherwise is a productive, good member of a community, I don't think that's in the same category. And I also don't think that dreamers, for instance, who've known no other country should be deported and that if he tries it, there's going to be a tremendous amount of blowback, not just from Democrats, but I think from even moderates and Some Republicans.

Well, and this is a tough issue to sort of sort through politically, if you're looking at Democrats and Republicans, because what is said on campaign trails, often it does not match what happens in reality. And Donald Trump, we talked about building the wall. It was actually Lindsey Graham and it was, I believe, John Cornyn, I want to get these names right. But there was one Republican senator after another Republican senator that said building a wall is difficult. Yeah, building a wall is not going to take care of the problem. That was in 17 and 18 when Republicans control Congress. But let's dig even deeper. People don't remember Barack Obama was hammered by the Hispanic community, by Hispanic leaders, because he deported 2.1 million illegal immigrants, 90% of them, by the way, violent criminals. Donald Trump, if my counts right here, deported one point and that wasn't for lack of trying. Again, it's not just having the people on the ground to push the deportation. There's a million different things that have to go on.

You know, it's interesting recently, Congressman Tony Gonzalez, that represents a good part of South Texas, including areas right along the border, mentioned that he had inquired into how many folks fit that bill of violent criminal and that it was several hundred thousand. So the number that we're talking about is not 11 or 12 million. The vast majority of people who are here who are undocumented, yes, they may have come in and they broke the law when they came in, but they have been law abiding, good, productive members. People that go to the same church, whose kids go to the same school, who, you know, work and serve the community.

And by the way, can we also say run family restaurant, help work, run family restaurants, make businesses work in a lot of these, lot of these towns, main streets across America. Lise, this is again, obviously, if they're violent criminals, if they're criminals that have committed serious crimes, I think 95% of Americans want them out. But if somebody's been here for 20 years, been a law abiding citizen, I think that's when it gets more difficult politically for, for Republicans, for some. Again, if we have the images that we saw in 2017, that is a political loser for any party that tries to do it well.

[Advertiser]

And if Donald Trump could deport a couple hundred thousand violent criminals, that gives him a win. It gives him plenty of images. It gives him, I've done this, I've delivered on a promise and it doesn't muddle everything that he's done by taking it too far. And so I would use the counterexample building the wall. Donald Trump didn't build the wall, but he built enough and he made an effort and it showed his voters and Americans that he was trying and they didn't penalize him for it. And so this could be the same kind of political deal. Get rid of violent criminals, deport them, but let's not deport hardworking citizens.

[Richard Haass]

Two other things. One, if he goes a more retail approach, as you're suggesting, then you avoid the scenario where you have massive public protests. You then, as Rand Paul warned against having to bring in the military, potentially under the Insurrection act, which would be terrible for American society and terrible for this institution, this successful institution known as the US Military. The other thing Rand Paul squeezed in in his comment, which I think the Trump administration will do, is get, is to reinsert, revive the so called Remain in Mexico program. We have a totally broken system where people come here, ask for asylum, and then they come in and it might take 5, 10 years for their asylum cases to be heard. We can't do that. So one of the most interesting negotiations.

[Toyota Customer]

Yeah, but what happens afterwards? They're told go on and come back for a court hearing. And. Yeah, how many, how many come back?

[Richard Haass]

You know, we don't have numbers on.

[Toyota Customer]

That, but it's a very small percentage, probably below 10%.

[Richard Haass]

I'm guessing you're right. And in the meantime, people are here for five, seven years. That's why, again, the negotiation between the new administration and Mexico to reestablish Remain in Mexico, that if you want to apply for asylum here, that's fine, but you sit in Mexico while your case is being adjudicated in the United States. The ability to get that reestablished will be a major, major immigration issue.

[Joe Scarborough]

Jackie, many of the Republicans you cover on Capitol Hill every day were reelected on the issue of immigration. Voters saying that and the economy, top of mind for them. So we heard Rand Paul draw some kind of a line in the sand for Donald Trump. Don't try to use the military. But what will be the posture of most Republicans as he pursues this mass deportation?

[Toyota Representative]

Yeah, Willie, before I get to that, I do want to jump on something that Richard noted, which is the law that gives the president this sort of limitless power to use the military domestically, the Insurrection Act. I would be remiss not to look back on our January 6th coverage, which is a handful of lawmakers and even some Republicans at the time who encourage reforms to the Insurrection Act. You know, lawmakers do have some autonomy here, especially during this lame duck session, potentially to get something through to make some reforms to try to curb Trump's limits and his ability to be able to use the military. And we know in the last administration and his first administration that he threatened several times over the course of his term to use the military in inappropriate ways, such as clearing protesters, protesters who were, who were protesting George Floyd's murder, using the National Guard in a pretty violent way in Lafayette Square to clear protesters. So they do have some power here. But I do think you are going to see the majority of Senate Republicans not throw themselves into the crossfire here, not side with Rand Paul, who is notoriously dovish on some of these things and has a very, very, you know, libertarian view of the way that the military can be utilized domestically and internationally. But I do think that most Republicans, at the end of the day, they are a bit, they lean towards, I think, supporting some of the options outlined in that bipartisan, bipartisan border bill that was tossed to the wayside earlier this year. That, though, is unlikely to be resurrected now with incoming becoming President Elect Trump.

[Toyota Customer]

All right, Jackie, thank you so much as always. We greatly appreciate it.

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[Toyota Representative]

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