Morning Joe 12/17/24

Summary

Morning Joe Podcast Summary
Episode: Morning Joe 12/17/24
Release Date: December 17, 2024

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Hosts: Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Willie Geist
Guests: Eugene Robinson, Jackie Alemany, Tim Ryan, Jonathan Lemire

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1. Opening Segment

The episode commenced with light-hearted banter among the hosts and a brief introduction of the day's guests, including Washington Post contributors Eugene Robinson and Jackie Alemany, and former Democratic Congressman Tim Ryan from Ohio.

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2. President-Elect Trump's Response to Drone Sightings and Senate Pressure

Overview: The hosts delved into President-Elect Donald Trump's recent statements regarding unidentified drone sightings across multiple states. The discussion highlighted Trump's stance on Senate Republicans opposing his cabinet nominations and the potential repercussions for those lawmakers.

Key Points:

• Drone Sighting Concerns: President-Elect Trump addressed public unease about drone sightings, emphasizing the lack of information from federal agencies. He questioned the government's silence, stating, "Our military knows and our president knows and for some reason they want to keep people in suspense" ([05:00]).

• Pressure on Senators: Trump criticized Republican senators resisting his cabinet picks, suggesting that if they are "unreasonable," they might face primary challenges. Joe Scarborough referenced Trump's statements: "If they’re unreasonable, I think we have great people... I could see that happening" ([06:00]).

Notable Quotes:

• Eugene Robinson: "They know where it came from and where it went. And for some reason they don't want to comment." ([01:44])
• Trump's Position: "If they disagree with policies or personally for those positions, I get it."[18:06]

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3. Controversies Surrounding Cabinet Nominees

Overview: The segment focused on the contentious nominations for the Department of Health and Human Services and the Department of Defense, particularly spotlighting Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Pete Hegseth.

Key Points:

• Robert F. Kennedy Jr.: Scheduled to appear on Capitol Hill to address his vaccine skepticism, Kennedy's nomination has raised concerns among skeptics questioning his suitability for the role.

• Pete Hegseth's Conduct: Jackie Alemany reported on John Hazenvine, the former Army Special Forces master sergeant escorting Hegseth. Hazenvine was accused of assault during a training exercise, leading to questions about Hegseth's judgment in selecting his entourage. Scarborough mentioned, "He brings a guy like this, that has been charged with this by the United States military." ([11:00])

Notable Quotes:

• Eugene Robinson on Hazenvine: "Our military knows and our president knows... something strange is going on." ([02:29])
• Jackie Alemany: "The Pentagon would swallow him up in one week." ([08:52])

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4. Private School Shooting in Wisconsin

Overview: The hosts addressed a tragic shooting at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin, where a 15-year-old female student fatally shot a teacher and a fellow student before taking her own life.

Key Points:

• Incident Details: The shooter used a handgun during a study hall period, leading to multiple casualties. Notably, a second-grade student played a pivotal role in reporting the shooting by calling 911 ([25:26]).

• Discussion on Gun Control: The tragedy reignited debates on gun safety, mental health, and legislative inaction. Tim Ryan emphasized the need for stricter measures against firearms access for those displaying disturbing behavior ([28:25]).

Notable Quotes:

• Jackie Alemany: "We have to have both discussions [gun control and mental health] at the same time." ([31:15])
• Eugene Robinson: "90% of Americans support universal background checks." ([30:55])

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5. Gun Control Debate

Overview: The conversation shifted to the persistent challenges in enacting gun control measures despite overwhelming public support. The panelists critiqued the gun industry's influence and the circular arguments hindering progress.

Key Points:

• Public Support vs. Legislative Action: Despite high percentages of Americans backing measures like universal background checks and red flag laws, significant legislative advancements remain elusive ([32:03]).

• Influence of the Gun Industry: Jackie Alemany highlighted the gun industry's role in perpetuating the stagnation by shifting blame solely onto mental health issues without addressing gun accessibility ([32:05]).

Notable Quotes:

• Eugene Robinson: "You make the entire situation holistically safer for children to go to school." ([32:04])
• Jackie Alemany: "The same women I saw on social media were pretty disturbed." ([32:54])

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6. International Political Instability

Overview: The hosts briefly touched upon the political turmoil in Europe, noting the collapse of Germany's Chancellor Olaf Scholz's government and similar instability in France and Canada.

Key Points:

• Government Instability: Germany's parliamentary confidence vote loss leads to caretaker administration and potential snap elections in February. France and Canada are experiencing parallel governmental challenges, accentuating a global trend of political upheaval ([33:14]).

Notable Quotes:

• Eugene Robinson: "Western governments, man, are really having a huge challenge." ([33:20])

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7. The Economist’s "World Ahead 2025" Predictions

Overview: Deputy Editor Tom Standage from The Economist joined the discussion to outline the publication's top trends predicting global developments for 2025.

Key Points:

• Donald Trump's Potential Second Term: Standage speculated on the geopolitical and economic implications of a Trump presidency, highlighting uncertainties regarding international alliances and trade policies ([49:49]).

• Artificial Intelligence (AI) Investment vs. Adoption: Despite substantial investment in AI infrastructure, actual adoption rates among companies lag behind, posing questions about the technology's future impact and integration ([51:10]).

Notable Quotes:

• Mika Brzezinski: "It's a bit of a crunch year for AI in 2025." ([51:10])
• Standage on Voter Sentiment: "Voters want someone else. And so far in Britain, we've been disappointed." ([48:25])

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8. Democratic Party's Strategic Direction

Overview: The conversation pivoted to the Democratic Party's internal dynamics, particularly focusing on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's recent loss in gaining support for a key committee position and Congressman Tim Ryan's proposal to relocate the DNC headquarters to Youngstown, Ohio.

Key Points:

• Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez's Setback: AOC's failure to secure the top Democratic spot on the House Oversight Committee reflects the party's struggle to integrate progressive voices into leadership roles ([35:00]).

• Relocating the DNC Headquarters: Tim Ryan advocated for moving the Democratic National Committee to a working-class hub like Youngstown, Ohio, to better resonate with ordinary voters and address economic anxieties ([37:02]).

Notable Quotes:

• Jackie Alemany: "We have got to become the party of reform." ([39:50])
• Eugene Robinson: "How can it be that Ohio is gone?" ([41:41])

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9. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Segments

Joe Scarborough hinted at future discussions, including The Economist’s detailed trends for 2025 and further coverage of international and domestic issues. The episode concluded with final thoughts on geopolitical tensions and the ongoing challenges facing global and American politics.

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Key Takeaways:

• Political Turmoil: Both domestic and international political landscapes are marked by instability and a demand for significant change.

• Cabinet Nominations Under Scrutiny: President-Elect Trump's cabinet picks are facing intense opposition, raising questions about the future of his administration.

• Gun Control Stalemate: Despite strong public support, legislative action on gun control remains stalled due to powerful industry influence and ineffective policy proposals.

• Need for Democratic Reform: The Democratic Party is grappling with internal divisions and strategic realignments to better connect with working-class voters.

• Economic Concerns and AI Adoption: Economic challenges persist globally, with AI investment outpacing actual corporate adoption, signaling potential future shifts in technology and workforce dynamics.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "If they are unreasonable, I'll give you a different answer, an answer that you'll be shocked to hear." – [05:41] Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Response
• "We have to have both discussions [gun control and mental health] at the same time." – Jackie Alemany [31:15]
• "Voters want someone else. And so far in Britain, we've been disappointed." – Tom Standage [49:49]

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This summary encapsulates the pivotal discussions and insights from the Morning Joe episode aired on December 17, 2024. For a more comprehensive understanding, listening to the full episode is recommended.

Transcript

[Joe Scarborough]

I've been working with a Nourish dietitian for the last six months and it's been life changing. I've lost weight, healed my relationship with food, and have way more energy. Working with a dietitian online to create a personalized nutrition plan was so easy. Thanks to Nourish. The best part? I pay $0 out of pocket. Because Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans, 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Find your [e-mail] that's usenourish.com.

[Willie Geist]

Where'd you get those shoes?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Easy.

[Willie Geist]

They're from DSW because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make office hours feel like happy hour, the boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the styles that show off the many sides of you, from daydreamer to multitasker and everything in between. Because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com.

[Eugene Robinson]

Christmas is just nine days away and everyone's in the spirit tonight. I was admiring all the beautiful lights and then I realized that there was just the drones over New Jersey. One New Jersey politician proposed a bill to give local law enforcement the same type of capability as the Department of Defense and Homeland Security permission to down one of these unmanned drones. He wants local police to shoot at anything in the sky in December. Santa, I hope you have a Kevlar sleigh and don't forget to take the.

[Jackie Alemany]

Battery out of Rudolph's nose.

[Eugene Robinson]

We will have more on the story as we continue to learn nothing about it. The government knows what is happening. Look, our military knows where they took off from. If it's a garage, they can go right into that garage. They know where it came from and where it went. And for some reason they don't want to comment. And I think they'd be better off saying what it is. Our military knows and our president knows and for some reason they want to keep people in suspense. I can't imagine it's the enemy because if it was the enemy, they'd blast it out. Even if they were late, they'd blast it. Something strange is going on. For some reason they don't want to tell the people and they should.

[Joe Scarborough]

Donald Trump yesterday not exactly tamping down public concern about the possible drone sightings across several states. We'll go through what federal agencies are actually saying about the sightings and if they are a security risk, the President Elect also addressed the pressure campaign on Republican senators to get his Cabinet picks confirmed. We'll play for you those comments. It comes as his controversial choice to lead the Department of Health and Human Services. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Will be back on Capitol Hill today to answer questions about his long history of vaccine skepticism. And we'll go through the new reporting on the man who has been escorting Pete Hegseth around Capitol Hill for weeks in his bid to clinch the nomination for Secretary of Defense.

[Eugene Robinson]

Willie, is this true?

[Tim Ryan]

I just said Dion going to the Giants. I think what could be true is Shedeur Sanders. He could be the number one pick in the track, maybe number two. He's the quarterback at Colorado. Who's Deion Sanders, son.

[Eugene Robinson]

But Deion Prime, I don't know.

[Tim Ryan]

I think Dabel gets another year.

[Eugene Robinson]

Are we ready for prime time in New York City?

[Tim Ryan]

Man, what a spectacle that would be.

[Eugene Robinson]

What a spectacle that would be.

[Tim Ryan]

I don't know. Stranger things have happened. I think Dabel gets another year, though.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay. So good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, December 17th. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the host of Way Too early not for Long, Jonathan Lemire. You are not counting the days, are you?

[Jonathan Lemire]

I am not. This is my last week doing it. But you're not counting.

[Joe Scarborough]

No.

[Jonathan Lemire]

It's not like I'm banking, rolling the sleep right now. I swear, I'm not proud.

[Joe Scarborough]

Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of the Washington Post, Eugene Robinson, congressional investigations reporter for the Washington Post, Jackie Alemany joins us. And here on set in New York, former Democratic congressman Tim Ryan of Ohio joins us. Good to have you on board.

[Eugene Robinson]

So I'm curious, so Lemire's last run, right?

[Joe Scarborough]

Is this more like Lemire's last run?

[Eugene Robinson]

Johnny Carson saying goodbye. Right. The guests would come by. Remember Letterman? How moving it was like that. It's more like Dr. J going around the NBA and like, you know, what is. What's more like.

[Tim Ryan]

It's Larry Bird's. Yeah, right.

[Jonathan Lemire]

No, well, his edit abruptly with a bad back. So that actually might be me as well.

[Tim Ryan]

It doesn't fit because you're going out to play for another team. So I don't know, is it.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I've asked for the Foo Fighters to play me out like David Letterman.

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jonathan Lemire]

They haven't responded yet to our request. So I'm not sure that's going to happen or not.

[Eugene Robinson]

We'll be reaching out to you, see if he's available.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, let's get to Iraq. You've Been great and we look forward to you in your new iteration.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Thank you, guys.

[Joe Scarborough]

We begin this morning with President elect Trump's warning to Senate Republicans opposed to some of his cabinet nominations. In a wide ranging news conference from his Palm beach estate yesterday, the President elect was asked about lawmakers who don't support his picks. Here is what he said.

[Jackie Alemany]

Senators who oppose your nominees, your cabinet nominees, should they be primary?

[Eugene Robinson]

If they are unreasonable, I'll give you a different answer, an answer that you'll be shocked to hear. If they're unreasonable, if they're opposing somebody for political reasons or stupid reasons, I would say has nothing to do with me. I would say they probably would be primarily. But if they're reasonable, fair and really disagree with something or somebody, I could see that happening. But I do believe that if they're unreasonable, I think we have great people. I think we have a great, a great group of people. Boy, Willie, yesterday we were talking about the back and forth a lot of the Republican senators saying, hey, you know what? The pressure campaign not really going to work. In fact, it may be backfiring press conference, very interesting. He said if they're unreasonable and personal, then I could see them being primaried. But if they're reasonable and they don't like their views or something like that, I could see that. With that comes again just background. We first of all remember Gates going down and people around Trump saying, wow, we really traded up with Pam Bondi. We actually got a better deal out of it. And just the facts that hegseth there's still the feeling he is not going to make it through. We have news today suggesting even yesterday he's showing horrific judgment on the Hill with a person that's taking him around on the Hill. But also Tulsi Gabbard just again, the word just isn't. She just did terribly last week, not up to it. Not even up to doing the interviews in a way that gave confidence to Republican senators who wanted to support her. So there are at least two picks right there that I have a feeling if they go by the wayside, he's not going to be too upset. He does want RFK Jr from all we hear. But these two, I'm not so sure that wasn't just a tip to the Senate going if you got good reasons to not take those two, we understand.

[Tim Ryan]

And yet it came two days after he took great pains to be seen publicly with them. He took them to the Army Navy football game, which he wouldn't have done if he were casting them aside. So I Think what I'm hearing, and I think you guys are probably hearing too, from some of these Republicans is to Donald Trump and his team. Look, there are conservatives, there are Republicans, there are people who will be loyal to you who are not Pete Hegseth, who are not Tulsi Gabbard, who are not Matt Gaetz is what they made very clear to him. And so I think they're trying to massage Trump a little bit. They're trying to finesse this and say, we hear you, we understand, we're gonna give these guys a fair hearing, we're gonna give them interviews, but we have some other ideas of people who could be in those jobs. So I'm curious, Tim. Congressman, you serve with a lot of these people. The big question that hangs over all of these choices and really the next four years is how far can Donald push these, Donald Trump push these members, how far can he push them to say, you're going to do what I say? Or else do you think they're willing to cross him on Pete Hegseth, on Tulsi Gabbard, maybe even on RFK junior?

[Jackie Alemany]

I mean, the good part is we're starting to see the system actually play out. We said, well, there's not going to be any guard rails. Well, I mean, there kind of still is. And to Joe's point, it's like these guys aren't up for the job. You can get somebody else. We'll be nice, we'll do it politely and quietly, and then we'll give you everything else that you want. So I think that's how it's going to play out. But you think about Pete. I mean, the Pentagon would swallow him up in one week. That's what I've been saying.

[Eugene Robinson]

Let's push aside all the other horrific acts of judgment. You look at his lack of inexperience, and I've said it time and time again, you know, that's a job I'm sure you and I think we could do most jobs.

[Jackie Alemany]

I don't want that job. I don't want that job.

[Eugene Robinson]

I don't want that job. I remember Chris Lake called me up and he said, hey, I may be able to take the CNN job. I go, let me tell you, there are two jobs. You don't. I said this, there are two jobs in America. You don't want the CNN job because of the bureaucracy and the Pentagon don't touch that. And I said that like three years ago. But the Pentagon's even harder. The bureaucracy will swallow you up whole unless you really have been walking those corridors for years. I mean, that was All Services Committee, you know, for four terms. And even if, and even then, it.

[Jackie Alemany]

Was like, I mean, the weapons systems, the training, the tanks, the guns, the bullets, the satellites, the bureaucrats, the cybersecurity.

[Eugene Robinson]

I mean, like, the housing, the benefits, it would. Yeah, it would swallow anybody. He's not up to the task. If you want to reform the Pentagon, you're exactly right. You better get somebody that knows The Pentagon.

[Jackie Alemany]

Yeah, 100%.

[Joe Scarborough]

So the New York Times has new reporting on the man who has been escorting Pete Hegseth around Capitol Hill this month. According to the paper, John Hazenvine is a former Army Special Forces master sergeant who left the military after attacking a civilian during a training exercise back in 2019. So this is the guy who's escorting Hegseth around Capitol Hill now.

[Jackie Alemany]

Witnesses to the senator's offices.

[Joe Scarborough]

The senator's office witnesses said he beat the civilian role player who is a former member of Iraq's army elite counterterrorism surface, kicking him, punching him, and leaving him hogtied in a pool of his own blood. Among other injuries. The civilian was left with a broken nose, a broken tooth, a sprained shoulder, a scalp hematoma and blunt facial trauma. According to memos and statements by company employees about the episode. The army charged Hazenbein with aggravated assault and reckless endangerment. A military jury found him guilty of the assault charged in a court martial in 2020, according to army records. But the judge overseeing the case declared a mistrial after learning that a friend of Hazen Byn had been talking to a juror throughout the trial. Court records show the army did not retry the case. In a statement to the Times, Heisenbein said, I have no conviction and was honorably retired after 22 years of service. That's all you need to know.

[Eugene Robinson]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, he was given the choice of being retried or leaving. And I think that's how it happened. But, you know, it's beyond, beyond telling Jonathan O'Mear when his nomination is already on life support, that he brings a guy like this, that has been charged with this by the United States military. Right. That's the thing, the United States military of beating the hell out of somebody in a military exercise and being charged for it. A guy who's a US Citizen now being charged, charged for it. And he has no better judgment than that. This is who he is. This is who he has been. He went time and time again to Donald Trump, didn't He and tried to get people that were charged in the military for abusive behavior and he became champions of abusers.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, I mean that's the important context here, that's how he got on Donald Trump's radar to begin with, is that he would defend members of the military who were accused of misconduct, some of them in matters of abuse or worse, and that he was able to successfully get some of them clemency from the President of the United States. The kegs of camp is saying that this is a sign of loyalty, that he's sticking with his guys no matter what. The accusation was that this is what he's gonna bring to the Pentagon, defend those who serve the country and stand up for those with.

[Eugene Robinson]

There are a lot of people who serve the country who in military exercises and I know goes on the Armed Services Committee, I get to see a lot of the military exercises. They don't kick the hell out of somebody. They don't kick them in the ribs, they don't hog tie them, they don't shake their tooth, they don't leave them in a pool of blood. There are a lot of people, a lot of honorable men and women that serve in the military that could have been escorting him around like that. But it's almost like he's constantly got to prove a point.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, every bit of that is right. He had other options. This is a deliberate choice, a signal that he's sending in part because I am told he thinks Donald Trump respects that. The idea of doubling down, fighting, don't give an inch. We will see if that plays out in this, the politics though of his confirmation choice. Because we already know there are a number of senators who've expressed reservations, public and private, about Hagstat's conduct, about his judgment. This is a matter of judgment here. And we also reporting shows, including folks that I talked to yesterday, that though Trump is still supporting this pick, he took him to the Army Navy game, as you noted, but he hasn't gone fully to bat from yet. He has not personally said he that's my guy. He hasn't called those senators posted on Truth Social but hasn't called.

[Eugene Robinson]

They think more things are coming out.

[Jonathan Lemire]

There's an expectation that more is coming and all. Except there's still a few votes short.

[Eugene Robinson]

All those senators are just saying this wasn't it. All these senators are saying, why do I have to say anything when gravity is going to do all my work for me? That's what they're thinking. So when you hear them going, oh, hey, let's let the process play out, see what happens.

[Joe Scarborough]

How could there be more?

[Eugene Robinson]

We're just going to wait. We'll process, play out means, yeah, yeah, we're gonna just sit there and watch him and watch the gravity pull him through with weight of more things coming out.

[Tim Ryan]

So, Jackie, you obviously cover these members every single day. What's your sense of how or how not this has evolved? There was great skepticism a couple of weeks ago around Pete Hegsett that seemed like he was doomed. A little bit of a tone shift, at least from someone like Senator Ernst last week, but not a full endorsement by any stretch of the imagination. What's your sense of where things are now with his potential nomination and where they're headed?

[Kathy Park]

I think this wait and see posture, wait until there's more FBI background checks, wait until we get closer to the process and keep quiet until then, is the strategy that most senators are currently employing. Doing everything behind closed doors. After seeing Joanie Ernst take a radically different approach that staffers and members that we've spoken to were really critical of. Who said she sort sort of overshot her own power and influence by going out on Fox News, getting ahead of herself, saying that she was not ready to support Hegseth in a pretty public way, having sort of triggering this public criticism and full court press on her from MAGA World, and then four days later backtracking on it in a way that sort of damages her credibility and also her standing in Trump world. You're seeing the rest of these senators now learning a very different lesson from her actions. But we have seen a slight win for some Republican senators. Tom Fox successfully was one of the people who lobbied Trump to step down from considering Amaryllis Fox Kennedy, who was being proposed to be the CIA number two, the deputy to John Ratcliffe. After some private conversations and concerns raised with Trump directly about Kennedy's past comments and statements and beliefs about the CIA, Trump ultimately decided that he wasn't going to consider her anymore. And this was done in a very stealth way behind closed doors. You know, Cotton, along with some other Republican senators, have very ideological approach to, you know, foreign intervention and foreign espionage and sort of some of these subversive espionage tactics that the CIA does and that Cotton in particular has viewed as very valuable to US Intelligence and communicated those concerns and was successful in his lobbying. So I think this is sort of the approach that we're going to see going forward, because so far you haven't really seen many other public, specific criticisms of people who might have similar problems to Amaryllis Fox, such as Tulsi Gabbard.

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah. You know, Gene Robinson, it seems that everybody has taken the, let's wait and see. No need to have people screaming at us and our staff members over Christmas holidays. We're saying we're not going to support a Trump pick. It's a, let's, let's let the FBI investigation, let's let the further newspaper investigations take its course. And then, you know, you'll see people like, probably people like Murkowski, Collins, who's got to win in a very blue state two years from now, Mitch McConnell, maybe Cassidy, who's already voted against impeachment, doing what they will likely do, especially on Hegseth and especially on Hegseth and Gabbards. But you know what, that's what was so interesting yesterday. And what Donald Trump said at the end of that statement we played, which is if you disagree with him, if you disagree with their policies, if you disagree with them personally for those positions, I get it. Which is sort of, I think, some space. It's extraordinarily telling and a lot of space. And it's a lot different than what all these outside groups are doing to try to make money on this.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, Donald Trump is not going to the mat for these nominees, not for Hexaf, not for Gabbard. Maybe he is for RFK Jr. And I think he'll likely get him through. But look, I come back to what you were saying at the beginning of the segment, which is Pete Hexeth is in no way qualified to be Secretary of Defense. And that's just, I think those senators that you mentioned and probably others really can't get past that. I'm not sure they could get past the fact of this guy walking around with him who was court martialed for that, that horrific incident. But he's, look, the world is on fire. The US has forces around the globe and is constantly moving resources and people here and there trying to put out the flare ups of these fires as best it can to keep our people as best we can out of harm's way while fulfilling missions. That's enormously complicated. And it takes somebody who really knows the military inside out, who knows the Pentagon inside out, who knows what levers to push and pull. And Hexus has none of that. It would just be madness to have somebody like that running the Defense Department now. It's just not acceptable. And then of course, Tulsi Gabbard presents a whole different set of issues around the question of loyalty, frankly.

[Eugene Robinson]

Well, yeah, loyalty to Syria, loyalty to Russia. I mean loyalty. Yeah. It's really, really bizarre. Yeah. But again, even with Pete Hegseth, as we said, not qualified and yet still doing things, even yesterday where he gets a guy who's charged and we went through the details, just beating the hell out of somebody that was there to help them with an exercise and then, you know, the case thrown out on a technicality. But the facts are still there and Hegseth knows it and I guess wants to prove a point that he can.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right in your face.

[Eugene Robinson]

He can champion people that have been accused of abusing others in the military.

[Joe Scarborough]

The Washington Post, Jackie Alemany, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. And still ahead on Morning Joe, what we're learning about a private school shooting in Wisconsin that left a teacher and a student dead and several others injured. We'll get a live report from Madison next. Plus, we'll hear from Tim Ryan on where he thinks the DNC headquarters should be moved to. It's a hint where he's from. We're back in 90 seconds.

[Mika Brzezinski]

UNHCR, the UN refugee agency, responds to.

[Willie Geist]

Emergencies and provides long term solutions for refugees in more than 130 countries, including Ukraine, Syria and Afghanistan.

[Kathy Park]

UNHCR supports people forced to flee from.

[Willie Geist]

War, violence and persecution at their greatest moment of need. During the winter, people forced to flee are faced with increased hardships and costs.

[Mika Brzezinski]

As temperatures drop, families struggle to meet basic needs like heating their shelters, buying.

[Willie Geist]

Warm clothes and cooking hot meals. Refugees and displaced people are struggling to survive like never before. Funding shortfalls and rising food prices forced UNHCR to dial back its life saving aid to vulnerable families around the world. Donor support is crucial to address the need for essentials for millions of families. Without sufficient funding, lifesaving assistance will be threatened, cutting off a vital lifeline for refugees and displaced people. This is a tremendous challenge for people forced to Flee. Donate to USA for UNHCR by visiting unrefugees.org winter all gifts before December 31st are automatically matched. This podcast is supported by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Planned Parenthood Federation of America exists so all people can get access to the sexual and reproductive care and education they need. Planned Parenthood organizations advocate for health equity and policies that allow people the freedom to control their own bodies, lives and futures. More than 2 million patients a year rely on Planned Parenthood Health center services like STI testing and treatment, birth control, gender affirming care, abortion, cancer screenings and more. Reproductive health care and rights are under attack from public officials who are out of step with the will of the vast majority of Americans. The constitutional right to abortion has been stolen and politicians in 47 states have introduced bills that would block people from getting the sexual and reproductive care they need. Planned Parenthood knows that equitable access to healthcare, including safe, legal abortion, is a human right. Right now, Planned Parenthood needs your help to protect access to healthcare. Donate today by visiting plannedparenthood.org protect I've.

[Joe Scarborough]

Been working with a nurse dietitian for the last six months and it's been life changing. I've lost weight, healed my relationship with food and have way more energy. Working with a dietitian online to create a personalized nutrition plan was so easy thanks to Nourish. The best part? I pay $0 out of pocket Because Nourish accepts hundreds of insurance plans, 94% of patients pay $0 out of pocket. Find your [e-mail] that's usenourish.com 22 past the have identified a shooter at a private school in Wisconsin as a 15 year old female student. Two people were killed, a student and a teacher and six others were injured after that female student opened fire yesterday. Officials say the shooter was also killed.

[Jackie Alemany]

A second grade student called 911 to.

[Eugene Robinson]

Report a shooting had occurred at school. Now let that soak in for a minute. A second grade student call 911 at 10:57am to report a shooting at school.

[Joe Scarborough]

NBC News correspondent Kathy park joins us live from Madison. Kathy, what is the latest officials there telling you this morning about what happened?

[Kathy Park]

Mika, good morning to you. Abundant Life Christian School is a small private Christian school here in Madison with roughly 420 students K through 12 and it has now turned into a crime scene. They were just days away from being released for Christmas break. As you mentioned, the shooter came in yesterday morning killing a student as well as a teacher, injuring six others and as of this morning we know two are still in critical condition. The 15 year old shooter was a student and according to authorities died of a self inflicted gunshot wound as she was being transported to the hospital. We do know that a handgun was recovered and the shooting happened in an isolated part of the school. We were told that it was in a classroom during study hall. There were students of all grades at the time and as you heard the police Chief say a second grader called 911 reporting this emergency, this active shooter yesterday morning. We do know that the investigation is still in its infancy, preliminary stages at this point. Authorities were at the shooter's home yesterday. We know there was a huge law enforcement and they were collecting evidence, but they did not say what they were able to pull from that house. We do know that the parents of the shooter, they are cooperating with the investigation. There is also a document related to the shooting that is circulating online that is also being processed at this time. But still so many questions about the motive. We still don't know what the motive is at this point. But we do know that there will be another update for media and the public later on this afternoon.

[Eugene Robinson]

NBC's Cathy Park Live in Madison, Wisconsin. Thank you. And you know, Willie, the timing, of course, there's never a good timing for this. This does bring back though, just haunting memories of 12 years ago, Sandy Hook, the last Friday before the kids were supposed to go home for their Christmas holidays. And just the tragedy there. And in those years, you know, a big belief that that horror would finally leave to some reasonable gun safety laws that 90% of Americans supported. 80%, 70% on several issues. And it just happened. We had small gains for it a few years ago, but just not enough.

[Tim Ryan]

Yeah, the anniversary actually was on Saturday. Twelve years since the Sandy Hook school shooting. I live not too far from there and every time I drive past I kind of stop and sometimes have to pull over thinking about what happened that day. And here we are again. It looks like in this case, according to police, it was a handgun. It was a girl, which is unusual for these school shootings. Usually you have a male with an AR15 or an AR15 style rifle. We don't know motive. We don't know how she got the gun. It has been interesting in the last couple of years there's been this new movement to hold and I'm not suggesting anything in this case because we don't know. To hold parents accountable.

[Eugene Robinson]

Right.

[Tim Ryan]

Some have been prosecuted successfully for providing weapons or not reporting information about their child. So we'll learn more as the day goes on here. But for now, just a horrible tragedy again. Remember last year in Nashville at a small Christian school, the Covenant School, a horrific scene. And here again at the Abundant Life School in Madison.

[Eugene Robinson]

It's really something. Congressman, you and I grew up in cultures where there are a lot of guns. And you know, there may be people say, well, if there are like guns, boy, there must be a lot of recklessness. No. We would go into relatives house on Thanksgiving and yeah, they had shotguns and guess what? They were locked up. They locked up the guns. They knew how to use them. They kept them safe. So let us hope that in cases that we see moving forward that if somebody is Reckless and leaving guns around. I'm not saying it's the case here at all. We don't know, but that, yeah, parents or people that leave guns lying around are liable. But I just want to go back to what we've been talking about since 2012 in Sandy Hook. I mean, 90% of Americans support universal background checks. 80% of Americans support red flag laws. Even two thirds of Americans in many surveys support military style weapons being banned. I'm sure the number would go higher if you just said you're making it harder for killers and criminally insane people getting their hands on those and yet just such little progress. And I know you've been there since Sandy Hook, you've been on the floor of Congress. What gets in the way?

[Jackie Alemany]

Well, the gun industry, I mean, clearly. And I think we've got to take a step back and say, okay, okay, everything you just said, if you have a mental health issue, if you're a criminal, absolutely not. The red flag laws, I think that's completely reasonable. Most people agree with that. You're an honest, law abiding gun owner. You want to go hunt, fine. No one cares. We can have two conversations. This woman's obviously girl, very disturbed. We see a crisis with young men across the country in mental health. Mika and I know you talk about this a lot. We shouldn't just say, oh, it's the gun or it's mental health. It's both. It's. How do people who have these issues, how are they able to get a gun? Clearly, I mean, if it was the same woman I saw on social media, clearly she was pretty disturbed. And so how does that kid get the gun and then the two year second grader and all of that. So you gotta have both discussions at the same time. But the people who get the contributions from the gun industry and manufacturing industry, they're the ones that say, oh, it's mental health. And then you go to try to fund mental health and they tell you to go, yeah, and they don't want.

[Eugene Robinson]

To fund mental health.

[Jackie Alemany]

Right. So it's such garbage.

[Eugene Robinson]

It really is. That's the argument. It's always a circular argument. They start with a circular argument about the guns. Oh, well, this regulation wouldn't have stopped that shooting. That's kind of like saying, okay, well that car accident, you know, wouldn't have been saved if you had an airbag. People. No, you make the entire situation, you make it holistically safer for children to go to school, for parishioners to go to church, for workers to go to Their jobs. You look at it and you look at it holistically, and you look at mental health holistically, too. Instead of that, cop out, oh, I think we need to fund mental health. And then you go, okay, let's fund mental health. They go, no, we're not going to fund mental health.

[Jackie Alemany]

Yeah, 100%. It's the same as we were talking about the Senate with the nominating process. You just let the news cycle cycle out.

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah.

[Jackie Alemany]

And then, then it goes away and nothing gets done.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. The German government has collapsed. Chancellor Olaf Scholz lost a confidence vote in Parliament yesterday, putting Europe's largest economy under a caretaker government under until snap elections in February.

[Eugene Robinson]

Olaf, we hardly knew.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Eugene Robinson]

I mean, look at this. We got, we got Germany.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Eugene Robinson]

We got France's government that collapsed and now they have new prime minister. Oh, Canada.

[Joe Scarborough]

Did you see Canada?

[Eugene Robinson]

Looks like that's, that's about to.

[Joe Scarborough]

What is, I mean, going on?

[Eugene Robinson]

Western, Western governments, man, are really having a huge challenge.

[Tim Ryan]

Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

As Joe mentioned, the government of France also broke apart earlier this month. Both countries struggling to revive their economies and social divides and geopolitical pressures. A lot going on. Also battle tested. Ukrainian forces are reportedly taking out waves of North Korean troops sent into battle by the Kremlin.

[Eugene Robinson]

Who's surprised here? Anybody surprised here?

[Jonathan Lemire]

No hands raised.

[Joe Scarborough]

No hands says the inexperienced fighters make for easy targets. Three Ukrainian soldiers fighting in the Kursk region described waves of what appeared to be North Korean troops flooding the battlefields in full view of Ukrainian drones and other weaponry in recent days.

[Eugene Robinson]

So the Russians are just sending me out to go, hey, why don't you go see terrible.

[Tim Ryan]

Wander out into that open field.

[Eugene Robinson]

Wander out that open field. See, it'll be fine. We just did it last week, don't we? You're going to love it. Also, it's not going to work.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez lost a key show of support yesterday in her push to serve as the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Next year. The powerful Steering and Policy Committee recommended Congressman Jerry Connolly of Virginia instead. While that wields strong influence over the party, the results are not final until full caucus votes today.

[Eugene Robinson]

So, Congressman, let me ask you about that aoc. Obviously, she energizes younger voters. They really do. And even across party lines are energized by her. I know the establishment, the Democratic Party not going to be as excited. Some of her views will be left of center of where probably the mainstream Democratic caucuses. But how does she get involved in a media meaningful way? She lost the race yesterday. That certainly would have done it. But what's a good pathway forward? Because again, the challenge for Democrats stop firing at each other. Right. And instead figure out how to get the progressive wing, which I've said time and again, they were in many ways pretty patient during the Biden administration, going along with some bills they didn't agree with. And the more conservative to moderate wing, how do they get together, move forward with a common goal of winning elections.

[Jackie Alemany]

I think Hakeem Jeffries is gonna, the leader of the Democratic Party in the House is gonna have to figure out how to position someone like her because you run into the inertia of Congress. On the Republican side, you have six year term limits for committee chairs. On the Democratic side, you do not. So people can get into the leadership position and really there's no, there's no movement. And I think that was a lot of frustration for guys like me and others who are trying to like climb the ladder or get into positions. It just takes so much time. But she's such a powerful voice, I think for the party and I think you, you see how she handled like the Trump Bernie voter phenomenon.

[Eugene Robinson]

Exactly.

[Jackie Alemany]

About how to really talk to. I think she's, she's trying to educate Democrats on how do you talk to people about these working class economic issues in order to bring them in to the fold. Whether your solution, you're in agreement on the solution of redistribution or grow the pie, Democratic socialism or a reformed capitalism. That's the argument you should have. But she's clearly very talented in understanding how to connect the working class people. So she needs a place in the party to talk about those.

[Tim Ryan]

Congressman. Let's talk big picture, Democratic Party post election. All this talk about soul searching, what has to change. I'm going to read from your Peace and Newsweek. It's titled DNC should move D.C. headquarters to Youngstown, Ohio. That's your, where you're from, Youngstown, Ohio. You've been talking about what happened on election day for 10 years or so. You come on this show and saying we're losing these people. We need to work harder to keep these people. So now that I think a lot of Democrats have woken up to what you've been saying for a while, what now for Democrats?

[Jackie Alemany]

Oh, well, I'd say that a little bit tongue in cheek of move the headquarters to Youngstown, Ohio, where there's working class people. It's an old factory town. They're gritty we have a. We've created a great coaching culture. Youngstown has been known as the cradle of coaches. The Stoops brothers, Jim Tressel, Urban Meyers, not from far away. We've created this culture of how are you gritty, how do you lead, how are you disciplined, and how do you have some straight talk, like honest conversations with people so that your team trusts you. And I think Democrats have lost that trust. So I say Youngstown, it could be Flint, it could be Detroit, Toledo, Steubenville, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, it doesn't matter. It just can't be in freaking Washington, D.C. like, how many times are we going to talk to ourselves about something that's irrelevant to that person in Youngstown, Ohio, who comes out of that culture, the economic anxiety and all of that. And so it can't be in Washington D.C. i think it would be a very good strategic move and as I say in the piece, to have the workers there have these high overpaid consultants, go to a place like Youngstown, play bocce, watch sports, you know, be in the community, eat dinner, great Italian food, they're going to eat well. Like go there and just listen, listen. Don't be on Twitter, don't tell them what you think. Nobody cares what you think. Listen. Two ears, one mouth, you listen just like we were raised. And if we do that, we will begin to shift the culture of the party.

[Unknown Speaker]

Congressman. So Youngstown is a great example because I think decades ago, I guess the big employer there was probably Republic Steel. I remember when I was in college, I. I had a friend whose dad grew up in Youngstown and his dad worked for Republic Steel. And so it's one thing to listen and to play bocce, but what should the message be for a place like Youngstown, Ohio? What should Democrats be saying they intend to do or they want to do to make people's lives better?

[Jackie Alemany]

We have got to become the party of reform. Period. End of story. Everything needs to fit under that. Everyone knows that the government is broken. Everyone knows that the economy is not working for them. Eugene, whether you're white or black or brown, you're male, female, whether you work in manufacturing or retail, you know that we blow way too much money on healthcare. You know, we're spending billions of dollars on education, but yet we're not getting the skillset that we need, need to dominate the new economy. We know that affordability around energy is not where it needs to be. We know these communities need rebuilt. These downtowns are empty, the rivers are dirty. Like we need a huge reform agenda. And that's where I think we dropped the ball and we gave Trump that lane on reform. You're seeing it now with Doge, and you're seeing he's the one taking on the broken economic system, even though he's got concepts of a plan with healthcare. You know, he's at least acknowledging that there's a lot of problems with healthcare and we didn't get the message out on the insulin and those other things. So I think that the brand for Democrats needs to be, you know, reform and renewal a la Teddy Roosevelt. We're going to take on these entrenched interests. I actually think what Robert Kennedy Jr. S doing, talking about food, I mean, what we've done to the food industry, the consolidation in meatpacking, the consolidation around seed and pesticides, like, why can't we go into rural America and tell farmers that we're on your side? We know that it went from seven, eight or nine different seed producers to now two or three. And it's basically a monopoly and you're getting screwed. We've got to have some courage, you know, we've got to have the guts to say we're going to go into rural America. You can't leave voters out there just like they don't know what you stand for.

[Eugene Robinson]

Let me ask you this, though. How can it be that in Youngstown, Ohio, the average salary Last year was $34,000 a year for a family, for a household. Household average salary last year, $34,000. And yet a government of the billionaires, for the billionaires, by the billionaires. One Ohio overwhelmingly. How does that happen? How do Democrats miss that layup? Why have they continued to miss that layup for years? So average household of $34,000.

[Jackie Alemany]

Yeah.

[Eugene Robinson]

Voting for the government of the billionaires, for the billionaires, by the billionaires, over and over again, again. How could it be that Ohio is gone?

[Jackie Alemany]

They. I don't think Ohio's gone, but they saw Trump as the blue collar billionaire who's going to go in and help fix it. And maybe he's the only guy that could. And unfortunately, as much as I love Bill Clinton, they see the Democrats as the ones who passed NAFTA and led us through globalization. And those workers at places like Delphi or General Motors. We literally watched those jobs go from Warren, Ohio, over the border into the maquiladoras in Mexico and ship the product back. Our workers were unbolding machines. My cousin did from the factory floor and shipped it to China. Workers went to Mexico.

[Eugene Robinson]

That happened in 1994.

[Jackie Alemany]

It's still in the DNA, Joe.

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah, I mean, Democrats can't figure something out from 1994 forward.

[Jackie Alemany]

Well, no, that's the problem is they said you did this and Obama was in for eight years and things have not gotten any better. Now, finally, to Biden's credit, we are re industrializing the country, but we didn't have a reform reindustrializing. We're taking on those guys and we're putting there's a battery plant outside of Youngstown, 2,000 UAW jobs, 30 bucks an hour. Just renegotiated the contract. We didn't hear about that. So all the upside, we didn't talk about all the reforms that we were trying to make around these other. You didn't hear a ton about it. It wasn't this big bold agenda was it was really piecemeal. And we need that big reform agenda. Carrie carry a big stick.

[Eugene Robinson]

All right.

[Joe Scarborough]

Former Democratic Congressman Tim Ryan, always good to see you. Thank you. Great to see you guys coming on this morning.

[Jackie Alemany]

Thanks for having me.

[Joe Scarborough]

Coming up, the biggest trends to watch in 2025. The Economist is out with its annual predictive guide to the coming year. We'll break it all down in 10 themes.

[Eugene Robinson]

Number seven, theme bocce in Youngstown, Ohio.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, we'll be right back.

[Jackie Alemany]

I see a road trip.

[Eugene Robinson]

All right.

[Joe Scarborough]

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[Joe Scarborough]

Welcome back to Morning Joe, 46 past the hour.

[Eugene Robinson]

So it's not going well for the North Korean troops, will he? You know, when I heard that they were importing North Korean troops to help the Russians, it's terrible. Where things weren't going well for the Russians, I'm thinking, okay, if they're not going well for the Russians, are they going to go any better for North Korean troops going into Kherson, this is terrible.

[Tim Ryan]

When they're training in the Hermit Kingdom in preparation for French warfare of World War I, that's probably not a good sign for your prospects.

[Eugene Robinson]

Okay, I got the invisible cell phones, remember that they used in the World Cup.

[Joe Scarborough]

Moving on. For nearly four decades, the Economist has released its annual year end issue predicting the geopolitical trends and events of the upcoming year. Yep, the world ahead 2025 issue is out now, assessing what the global impact will be from Donald Trump's win, how democracies around the world will respond to the widespread losses of incumbent parties, and what surprises may be in store. Joining us now, deputy editor at the Economist, Tom Standage. He's editor of The World Ahead 2025 issue.

[Eugene Robinson]

Tom, thank you. Thank you so much for being with us.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Greatly appreciate to be here again.

[Eugene Robinson]

I want to start, I'm going to ask a general question just about Britain right now and the new we're going to, we're going to get to what's ahead. But we've been talking this morning about the German government falling, the French government falling. Last week, it looks like Canada's government may fall. Obviously, the the Biden Harris team lost. But in Britain, you have a new Labour Party. But it's got off to such an absolutely miserable start based on conversations I've had with dozens of people in Britain. What's the political climate right now in Britain and the economic climate as well?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, the economic climate is quite gloomy. The government has promised to boost growth and so our growth has actually proved to be weaker than expected. I don't think that if you look at those other countries, the governments have been collapsing. This government has got four years or so, four and a half years until it has to have another election. So they've got some time to make some pretty unpopular changes. And I think if you look across the world, we've seen in this unprecedented year of elections that incumbents have done badly everywhere. And we've seen incumbent parties chucked out like we did in Britain, America. And that means that people have a lot of expectations right now and going into 2025 about whether these new leaders can deliver on what they've promised. So far, labor is not doing a great job of that and doesn't actually seem to be terribly good at doing politics, which is kind of strange. But of course, the person who's made the most promises about big, sweeping changes and shaking things up is Donald Trump in the US So there is a sort of commonality around the world that people have voted for change and now they're expecting it to happen. And so far in Britain, we've been disappointed.

[Tim Ryan]

Okay, so let's get now to the top trends. Top 10 trends to watch in 2025. Number one, you just mentioned it, America's Choice, which of course is Donald Trump returning to the White House. You said it could lead to geopolitical realignments. What does a second term for Donald Trump mean for the world? World?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, that's the whole problem. We don't exactly know because. And these are actually points three and four. We don't know what it means for geopolitics, which is 3, and we don't know what it means for economics, which is 4, because he's promised some all sorts of things. He's going to end the war in Ukraine in a day. He seems to take a much more transactional approach to alliances. And what does that mean for America's allies in Europe and Asia? We don't know yet. And then on the economy, is he serious about these tariffs? Are we going to have a big trade war that would be bad for America and for everyone else because it would mean lower growth and higher prices in America. Because these tariffs, remember, are a sales tax on American consumers. They are not a way of helping yourself to money from China. They are literally a sales tax on American consumers. And so that risks reigniting inflation. And of course, one of the things that voters around the world have been complaining about in 2024 is high prices and inflation. And that's one of the reasons why Donald Trump got in. He said, I will. I will fix all of that. You'll see your food prices go down again. He's been backpedaling a bit on that in the last few days, but his policies point literally in the opposite direction.

[Jonathan Lemire]

So, Tom, it's hard to have a conversation about the future or frankly even the present without the role. Thinking about the role of AI, I know that's made one of your broader trends. That's a, that's a global issue. How do you see both tech leaders and world leaders grappling with it?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, I think there's an interesting thing going on with AI right now. There's an enormous amount of investment going into it. Something like one and a half trillion dollars in AI infrastructure between 2024 and 2027. And yet we're not really seeing the demand there from companies. So only 5% of American companies who you would expect to be leading the charge here say they're actually using AI and that might go up to 7% next year. So there's this weird sort of disparity between the enthusiasm of investors and technologists and the actual adoption by companies. Now maybe it will just take a bit longer. Maybe we need to wait for these new agent based systems. So agentic, there's a candidate for Word of the year for 2025. Already everyone is talking about it. You're not going to be able to get away from people saying that word. It's like de rigueur in your PowerPoint presentation now. But the other interesting thing I think is that if you look at surveys of employees rather than companies companies, you get much higher numbers. So something like 80% of programmers, 75% of HR people and 30% of employees overall in America say they're using AI at least once a week. So that suggests that there's a lot of AI adoption going on. It's just in secret because people don't think that their bosses will approve of what they're doing. And that suggests that there's actually a big sort of cultural and management challenge for AI to overcome if it's going to be widely adopted and to justify all of those massive investments. So I think it's a bit of a crunch year for AI in 2025 because if we don't see that adoption and we don't see that traction by companies in a more formal way, then some of those share prices you may think look a bit overvalued.

[Unknown Speaker]

Tom, I'm going to resist using the word agentic as long as I can. I'm going to try to make it all the way through 2025 without using that word. I want to come back to the point number two, voters want change. That's obvious, right? The German government just fell. France is a mess, every place is a mess. Canada, you know Deputy Prime Minister Chrysia Freeland quit yesterday and Justin Trudeau was in serious trouble across the world. What do they want? Do we know? The politicians don't seem to know. But does the economists know what voters want?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, they want. Not this, they want change. What's really interesting is that incumbents have done badly regardless of their political orientation. So this isn't a shift to the left, left or to the right or towards, or away from nationalism or greenery or anything like that. It's just whatever, whoever is in charge now, we don't like what they're doing. We want someone else. And I think the thing that, you know, generally advanced economies all have in common has been inflation, higher interest rates as a result, and therefore a cost of living crisis in many countries. And so, and people blame governments for that and they say, no, you need to do something different. And so that's, I think one of the factors that we've seen. There's also been a loss of faith in the political process generally and in traditional parties and that's contributed a bit to it as well. But I think the main thing has been we blame the government for the fact that things cost more and maybe some different people would sort that out. So that is, I think the main factor that has driven this enormous wave of voting for change. And it's seen parties being chucked out altogether. But also we've seen parties returned in countries like South Africa and India with, with smaller numbers of MPs and so they've had to go into, into coalition. So that's another factor.

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah, you know, it's really something when you look across the west and the most stable government, Italy.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay, but it is, it is, it is the economists world ahead 2025 issue is out now. Deputy Editor Stop Tom Standage, thank you so much. Thank you for coming on the show this morning. We appreciate it's time to have your.

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