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- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
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Mika Brzezinski
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Jonathan Lemire
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- [00:46]
Joe Scarborough
To the People it doesn't surprise me.
- [00:50]
Richard Haass
That he will pick people that he believes are very loyal to himself, and that's been a part of the process.
- [00:55]
Joe Scarborough
Every president wants people that are loyal to themselves.
- [00:58]
Ken Delanian
But I'll also share with you that Chris Wray, you know who the president nominated the first time around, and I.
- [01:05]
Richard Haass
Think the president picked a very good man to be the director of the.
- [01:09]
Ken Delanian
FBI when he did that in his first term. When we meet with him behind closed.
- [01:13]
Joe Scarborough
Doors, I've had no objections to the.
- [01:15]
Ken Delanian
Way that he's handled himself, and so.
- [01:18]
Joe Scarborough
I don't have any complaints about the.
- [01:19]
Ken Delanian
Way that he's done his job right now.
- [01:22]
Jonathan Lemire
Republican Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota expressing his support for current FBI Director Christopher Wray after Donald Trump announced over the weekend he will nominate loyalist Cash Patel to that position, one which shouldn't normally even be open for a nomination. We'll have the latest about that controversial selection from the President Elect. Also ahead, we'll dig into newly surfaced allegations against Trump's pick for Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, as reports of whistleblowers have surfaced detailing years of troubling behavior. And we'll go through President Biden's pardon of his son Hunter, who was set to be sentenced later this month on federal tax evasion and gun charges. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, December 2nd. With us we have the host of Way Too Early, Jonathan Lemire, and President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations Richard Haass. He's the author of the weekly newsletter Home and Away, available on Substack.
- [02:28]
Joe Scarborough
And we've got a lot of great guests straight ahead to talk about the two big stories this morning. One of course, Cash Patel to the breaking news overnight regarding Pete Hegseth. More information, we'll also get to the Hunter Biden pardon later. But I want to just first, Jonathan Omer. This is one of these moments we hear a lot of people talking about flooding the zone and a lot of information coming at you all at once and not being able to sort through things. There are two picks right now that if you talk to people in Washington, D.C. they will this morning tell you two of the most dangerous selections they've seen. Number one, Pete Hegseth simply because he's unqualified to run the most complicated and most powerful bureaucracy, not only in America, but in the world. And number two, now Cash Patel. And Cash Patel, of course, is a person who infamously said he was going to jail. Reporters and journalists and news peoples, people who did not go along with the 2020 election conspiracy theory. And I just we're going to be talking in a little bit to Elena Platt Cabrera, who wrote a story about six months ago on Cash Patel. Let me just read you just a little bit from that. When Patel was installed as chief of staff to the acting secretary of defense just after the 2020 election, Mark Milley, who of course was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, advised him to not break the law. Quote, life looks really shitty from behind bars, milley reportedly told Patel. When Trump entertained naming Patel deputy director of the FBI, Attorney General Bill Barr, again, another Trump loyalist, confronted the White House chief of staff and said, quote, over my dead body. When in the final weeks of the administration, Trump planned to name Patel deputy director of the CIA, Gina Haspel, the head of the CIA, threatened to resign. Trump relented only after an intervention from Vice President Mike Pence. He goes on to ask, who was this man and why did so many top officials fear him? And we will go through it. It's certainly not because he's an expert in any of these fields. It's not even because he's an ideologue. It's because he seems, according to this piece and everything we've seen, singularly focused on exacting revenge on people who did not carry through on Donald Trump's threats of retribution. And again, we will be playing the clip in a minute where he promises to arrest journalists and reporters and news people who refused to go along with the 2020 Stop the Steal conspiracy theories. I mean, this is again, we're going to be talking about Pete Hegseth in a second. Explosive reporting over the night from the New Yorker, from two whistleblowers which I predict will probably at the end sink that nomination, along with a letter from his mother that was published this past weekend. But let's again, let's keep everything in perspective and let's start with the man that was not selected yet because he'd have to fire Chris Wray first. But the person that he floated out there to serve as FBI director, Cash Patel.
- [06:20]
Joyce Vance
Well, let's start with the idea that he'd have to fire Chris Wray. Let's remember he fired FBI Director James Comey, which almost brought his administration down in 2017. And Republicans in a fury now he talks about firing Chris Wray. Most in the GOP shrug go along with it. This is the new normal in Donald Trump's Washington, they believe. And the man that Trump says he wants to put in Ray's stead, Cash Patel, perceived by many to be deeply dangerous because he has indeed, as you note, no qualifications for this job. Many of Trump's former aides said as much four years ago. But Patel, I'm told, and I'm talking to people in the orbit the last couple of days, there is no ideology, there's no agenda here other than retribution. Patel's one defining characteristic is that he is simply loyal to Donald Trump. And even inner circle Trump members of the last few years have been startled by Patel's willingness to simply do whatever Trump does.
- [07:18]
Joe Scarborough
Let me stop you right there. Let me stop you right there, Jonathan. And we need to talk more about this. Cash Patel is not just controversial among media outlets are Democrats. He's not just controversial among Republican senators. He is controversial inside Trump's own orbit. I mean, you go inside Trump's own orbit and it is split down the middle with half the people thinking he's going to be a disaster for any Donald Trump administration. And they never wanted this nomination to see the light of day because again, that divide goes straight through Magaworld as well for those around Donald Trump.
- [08:11]
Joyce Vance
Yeah, people I've talked to say this pick was a nod to the extreme right wing portions of Trump base. The Steve Bannon ultra Maga sector here who had been disappointed by some of Trump's more conventional picks like, say, Trump, Treasury Secretary and Secretary of State. So this is Trump throwing them red meat because he knows he needs to keep them happy. But there are others in Trump world deeply worried about this pick who feel like Patel is not only unqualified, but indeed dangerous. That Patel will never think twice, never hesitate in carrying out whatever Trump wants, even if it means potentially, people say, breaking the law. So there are real questions here. And we'll get into it as to whether or not Patel can be confirmed. Much like Matt Gaetz, that pick seemed trouble. This one seems hardly a sure thing either. Joe Mika. But there are mechanisms where if he were to fire Ray Patel could step in in an interim way for 200 or so odd days, that even, even that short sample size, even if he can't get confirmed, would be enough to carry out some of Trump's agenda.
- [09:13]
Jonathan Lemire
So let's take a closer look into the man Donald Trump says he will nominate as former National Security Council official Cash Patel to serve as FBI director. Patel is an ultra Trump loyalist who has promoted lies that the 20 as well as the baseless conspiracy theory that federal bureaucrats in the deep state tried to overthrow the former president. At the end of Trump's first term, Patel served briefly as an advisor to the acting Director of National Intelligence and as Chief of Staff to Acting Defense Secretary Chris Miller. During that time, Trump proposed that Patel run the FBI, which Attorney General Bill Barr vehemently objected to. As Joe mentioned, Barr wrote in his memoir, he told then White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows that Patel would get the deputy job, quote, over my dead body. Barr also wrote that Patel had virtually no experience that would qualify him to serve at the highest level of the world's preeminent law enforcement agency. The very idea of moving Patel into a role like this showed a shocking detachment from reality. That's a quote.
- [10:31]
Joe Scarborough
That's Bill Barr. That's Bill Barr's quote, by the way, not NPR's. That's Bill Barr's quote.
- [10:36]
Jonathan Lemire
In the closing months of his first term, Trump also suggested that Patel serve as deputy CIA director. Then CIA Director Gina Haspel threatened to resign if Patel was installed. In an interview last year, Patel vowed to go after judges, lawyers and journalists who he viewed as enemies of Donald Trump. Take a listen, Cash.
- [11:02]
Joe Scarborough
I know you're probably going to be.
- [11:04]
David Rhode
Head of the CIA, but do you.
- [11:06]
Joe Scarborough
Believe that you can deliver the goods.
- [11:07]
Michael Schnell
On this in a pretty short, in.
- [11:08]
Joe Scarborough
A pretty short order, the first couple of months so we can get rolling on prosecutions?
- [11:12]
Richard Haass
Yes, we got the bench for it, Bannon. And you know those guys, I'm not going to go out there and say their names right now so the radical left wing media can terrorize them. But excuse me, the one thing we learned in the Trump administration, the first go round is we got to put in all America patriots top to bottom. And we got them for law enforcement, we got them for intel collection, we got them for offensive oper we got them for dod, CIA, everywhere. We will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you whether it's criminally or civilly. We'll figure that out. But yeah, we're putting you all on notice.
- [11:53]
Jonathan Lemire
All right, let's bring in.
- [11:56]
Joe Scarborough
Could you play that again? And this is. Can we do a CC to Republican senators. Hey, Mitch McConnell and Chuck Grassley. Let's see. Mike Rounds is a great patriot. I'm sure he's already deeply disturbed by this. He said pretty much just that. Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, who certainly stood up to the atrocious selection of Matt Gates. This, we want to play this one again. This is a long distance dedication from Casey to you. Cash, I know you're probably going to.
- [12:41]
David Rhode
Be head of the CIA, but do.
- [12:42]
Joe Scarborough
You believe that you can deliver the.
- [12:44]
Michael Schnell
Goods on this in a pretty short.
- [12:45]
Joe Scarborough
In a pretty short order, the first couple of months so we can get rolling on prosecutions?
- [12:49]
Richard Haass
Yes, we got the bench for it, Bannon. And you know those guys. I'm not going to go out there and say their names right now. So radical left wing media can terrorize. But excuse me. The one thing we learned in the Trump administration, the first go round, is we got to put in all America patriots, top to bottom. And we got them for law enforcement, we got them for intel collection, we got them for offensive operations, we got them for dod, CIA, everywhere. We will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you whether it's criminally or civilly. We'll figure that out. But yeah, we're. Put you all on notice, you know.
- [13:30]
Joe Scarborough
You know, I, I'd love to also place one more time for all those Wall street billionaires who say, oh, come on, come on, this is just all about tax cuts. He's, he's not gonna get people who prosecute.
- [13:46]
Jonathan Lemire
He's not gonna put Cash in there.
- [13:47]
Joe Scarborough
Come on. Never put Cash Patel in as FBI director. Love to see with the Wall Street Journal editorial page, maybe they've written about it this morning. They certainly should have. Love to play this for other apologists who have said that, oh, Cash Patel would never get put in that position. We kept hearing that time and time again and again, mainly for the Republican senators, Republican senators who stood up when their advise and consent power was tested. When it came to Matt Gaetz, well, this is not a question of either or. I keep hearing people going, well, maybe if he says no to Matt Gates, they say no to Matt Gaetz. And maybe the one. No, no, no. If somebody threatens the Constitution, if somebody threatens the First Amendment, if somebody threatens the basic Bill of Rights, it does not matter whether you have to say no to one of those or two of those or three of those. You know, the founders did not write that Senate's. The Senate had the advise and consent power for maybe one, one and a half dangerous elections. So got that for as many as you need. And by the way, this is not just uniformly vote no against everybody that Donald Trump puts up. I think everybody agrees that Marco Rubio, though not a Democrat selection certainly is within the framework of somebody who could be Secretary of state, who knows the issues, who works with people on both sides, who may be an effective secretary of state. Same thing with the treasury director. Same thing with the treasury director, but not this. Play it again.
- [15:43]
Richard Haass
We will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about it, American citizens who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you, whether it's criminally or civilly. We'll figure that out. But, yeah, we're putting you all on notice.
- [16:00]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, and we're putting you on notice. This is not only bad for the men and women who run the FBI, this is not only bad for the rule of law, this is not only bad for the First Amendment, this is not only bad for the United States of America, this is bad for Donald Trump, this is bad for the Trump administration. This is not going to end well. So I think the best case scenario for everybody is that Cash Patel and this talk of Cash Patel ends like the Matt Gaetz nomination ended because this will not go well for anybody. And I believe, I still believe there will be four Republican senators who will not vote to confirm somebody who says he's going to throw judges in jail, he's going to throw bureaucrats in jail, he's going to throw reporters in jail who did not go along with a 2020 Stop the Steal conspiracy theory. And by the way, just got word the Wall Street Journal did write about this.
- [17:19]
Jonathan Lemire
We'll get to that.
- [17:20]
Joe Scarborough
They don't like it.
- [17:21]
Jonathan Lemire
No, let's bring in NBC News national security editor David Rhode, NBC News justice and intelligence correspondent Ken Delanian, and congressional reporter for the Hill, Michael Schnell. Good to have you all on board this morning.
- [17:35]
Joe Scarborough
David Rhode, how dangerous is this election? Again, we need to be. So let's get this straight, right? Since Christopher Wray is still the FBI director, this is not like he nominated Matt Gaetz to be AG he just put this out on Truth Social. So he's going to have to fire Chris Wray first. Chris Wray, an FBI director he appointed himself. So if he fires Chris Wray, which many Republican senators have already expressed concern about, and then he moves on to someone like Cash Patel, or let's just say Cash Patel specifically, how dangerous is that for the rule of law in the United States of America?
- [18:14]
Richard Haass
To me, it's an unprecedented effort to politicize the FBI. I've been reading Cache Patel's memoir. You know, you've been citing these quotes. He's a conspiracist. The memoir is very black and white. He worked as a public defender in Florida. He talks about federal prosecutors conspiring against him and his clients. Then he goes and works for the Justice Department in the National Security Division. Again, there's people in the, in the Justice Department and judges who were ruling against him over and over. It's this very dark, simplistic vision of conspiracies. And he is nominated now to be the most, the head of the most powerful law enforcement organization in the United States. And it's just a critical moment. It's this. And he endlessly talks about deep state conspiracies. Again, just to go back, there was a nearly four year investigation by Special Counsel John Durham during the Trump administration. The Biden administration allowed it to continue. They looked at all the deep state conspiracy theories about the FBI and Trump in 2016. No senior officials were charged. There were mistakes made by the FBI. A low level lawyer pled guilty to changing a document. Two people were brought to trial and they were acquitted by John Durham. So these conspiracy theories aren't true. And this is a very dangerous moment. I think.
- [19:36]
Joyce Vance
So, Ken, let's get reaction from people you've talked to about this potential selection. And let's be clear what Patel has said he will do if he were to get this job. He would target Trump's political opponents, including members of the media. He also said he would shut down FBI headquarters, turn it into a museum of the deep state, in his words, and also purge the roles of those in the preeminent law enforcement agency in this country. What is the initial response here of to what Patel's vision would look like?
- [20:08]
Ken Delanian
Well, Jonathan, no one would be surprised to know that people at the Justice Department, the FBI, current and former, are horrified. People of all political persuasions, by the way, by this idea. And just to be clear about something, the proposal that Bill Barr said amounted to a shocking detachment from reality was to make Cash Patel the deputy FBI director under Chris Wray in the prior Trump administration. Now they're talking about elevating him to lead, as David said, not only the most powerful law enforcement agency in the country, one of the most powerful national security agencies. And I gotta emphasize this to our viewers, because a lot of people don't really understand everything the FBI does. The FBI director wields incredible power in the United States, and for anyone who doesn't believe that, go read a biography of J. Edgar Hoover. Now, we don't live in the Hoover days anymore, but the FBI still, they have people who can break into your home and plant a bug and you'll never know about it. And they can get secret warrants, national security warrants to do that, and no one will ever find out. They can obtain the records of news media, phone calls, and we'll never hear about it, assuming a Justice Department set of guidelines on that is overturned. So this is an incredibly powerful job. And just at a very basic level, Cash Patel is not qualified for it by objective standards. I mean, past FBI directors, the past three have all been very senior officials in the Justice Department with long experience as prosecutors. And then, of course, you had Louis Freehouse, who was a career FBI agent. These are significant figures in American life cache. Patel spent several years as a public defender, as David said, he spent three years in the Justice Department's National Security Division. And he went on to say that he was the lead prosecutor in the effort to bring the Benghazi terrorist to justice, which just isn't true. That's been completely debunked. So, leaving aside his conspiracy theory beliefs, he's just, by objective standards, not qualified for this job. And it's worth remembering how he came to Donald Trump's attention. It was this thing called the Nunes memo that he co wrote back in 2018 that was looking at how the FBI obtained FISA warrants on Carter Page and the Russia investigation. And it's worth saying that there's a lot of things in that memo that actually were vindicated by the Justice Department Inspector General. The FBI did make mistakes, as David said. But the fundamental notion that the Russia investigation was a hoax. That's just wrong. That's a conspiracy theory. And if you don't believe me, go read the Senate Intelligence Committee report released in 2000 that was CO signed by Marco Rubio and I hope he's asked about this as confirmation hearing because it is a remarkable document that really most people have never seen. Don't know what it says. It was signed off on by the Republican senators on the Intelligence Committee and it said that Russia interfered in the election, that the Trump campaign was open to those efforts and was willing to use the fruits of Russian interference to help get elected. And it called that a massive counterintelligence threat. So that's Cash Patel's foundational belief, the Russia hoax. And it's just flat wrong, guys.
- [23:14]
Joe Scarborough
Well, and here's actually a quote from that GOP Senate intel report that I keep handy. The report's language is often stark, describing Trump campaign Chairman Paul Manafort's receptivity to Russian oligarch as, quote, a grave counterintelligence threat that made the campaign susceptible to, quote, malign Russian influence. That comes from Republicans on the Intel Committee led at the time.
- [23:41]
Mika Brzezinski
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Joe Scarborough
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- [26:17]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, and we're not shocked about this because we were warned about this all along. And I wonder what a conversation like this would look like in the world of Kash Patel as FBI director. Just keep that in mind. Everything will be, everything will be looked at as perhaps an assault on him and perhaps he takes it out on members of the media, talking about him releasing free speech, real information and facts. He said it. We got the warning.
- [26:43]
Joe Scarborough
Okay.
- [26:44]
Jonathan Lemire
We got other many warnings.
- [26:45]
Joe Scarborough
We got other breaking news last night from the New Yorker. More. You know, I'd already heard that the Pete Hegseth nomination was in grave danger from my sources inside the Senate. Grave danger before.
- [27:00]
Jonathan Lemire
Right.
- [27:01]
Joe Scarborough
A letter that dropped this weekend and before the whistleblower news that came out late last night from the New Yorker.
- [27:07]
Jonathan Lemire
Because there's a pattern being tracked out and fact checked about his behavior. And now Penelope Hegseth, the mother of Trump's Defense Secretary Pitt Pete Hegseth told her son he should, quote, get some help and accused him of abusing multiple women in a newly unearthed email from her back in 2018. The email was obtained by the New York Times from another person with ties to the family. In it, Penelope wrote in part, you are an abuser of women. That is the ugly truth. And I have no respect for any man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around and uses women for his own power and ego. NBC News has not independently obtained the email. The message was sent in the midst of an acrimonious divorce from Hegseth's second wife, Samantha. Their marriage ended after Trump's choice to lead the Department of Defense impregnated a Fox News co worker with whom he was having an affair. In an interview with the Times on Friday, Penelope Hegseth defended her son, saying she disavowed those sentiments as well as apologized. In a follow up email, she told the paper it's not true. It has never been true, adding, I know my son. He's a good father husband. We'll read the full original email in a moment. Hegseth's lawyer declined to respond. Trump's transition team provided a statement saying it was shameful but not surprising that the New York Times is publishing a story about one out of context snippet. The entire purpose of this exercise is to malign Mr. Hegseth. The email comes as senators weigh the potential impact of a 2017 sexual assault investigation against him that has come to light. No charges were filed in the investigation and Hegseth has maintained the encounter was consensual. But in 2023, he paid his accent accuser an undisclosed sum as part of a settlement agreement. Meanwhile, a new piece on Pete Hegseth was just published in the New Yorker about a whistleblower report and other documents suggesting that Trump's nominee to run the Pentagon was forced out of a previous leadership positions for financial mismanagement and sexist behavior and being repeatedly intoxicated on the job, it reads in part. A trail of documents corroborated by the accounts of former colleagues indicates that Hegseth was forced to step down by both of the two nonprofit advocacy groups that he ranveterans for Freedom and Concerned Veterans for America in the face of serious allegations of financial mismanagement, sexual impropriety and personal misconduct. A previously undisclosed whistleblower report on Hegseth's tenure as the president of Concerned Veterans for America from 2013 until 2016 describes him as being repeatedly intoxicated while acting in his official capacity to the point of needing to be carried out of the organization's events. The detailed seven page report, which was compiled by multiple CVA employees and sent to the organization's senior management in February of 2015, states that at one point Hegseth had to be restrained while drunk from joining the dancers on the stage of a Louisiana strip club where he had brought his team. The report also says that Hegseth, who was married at the time, and other members of his management team sexually pursued the organization organization's female staffers, whom they divided into two groups, the party girls and the not party girls. The New Yorker continues in a separate letter of complaint which was sent to the organization in late 2015. A different former employee described Hegseth being at a bar in the early morning hours of May 29, 2015, while on an official tour through Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio, drunkenly chanting kill all Muslims. Kill all Muslims. In response to questions from the New Yorker. A lawyer for Hegseth replied with the following statement, which he said came from an advisor to Hegseth that read in part, we're not going to comment on outlandish claims laundered through the New Yorker by a petty and jealous disgruntled former associate of Mr. Hegseth's. The new Yorker also notes that Hegseth has been open about resorting to alcohol during a period in his life when he had returned to the US from active military duty and felt lost. NBC News has not seen the whistleblower report or letter of complaint cited by the New Yorker.
- [32:18]
Joe Scarborough
More quote from the New Yorker the whistleblower continued as if in disbelief, quote, a Fox News contributor with the rank of captain in the National Guard and the CEO of a veterans organization in a strip club trying to dance with strippers, which of course, as the whistleblower reports say from 2015, he had to be dragged off stage. Let's bring in right now the former supreme Allied Commander of NATO, retired four star Navy Admiral James Trevitas. He's international analyst for NBC News. Mika's going to read the letter from Pete Hegseth's mother, which aligns with much of what is written here. She wrote that in 2018, he of course had an incident that was reported on about another event he went to which led to accusations of rape, but also again reported drunken behavior, screaming out in the courtyard of this event. And there's so much to ask, but we've been talking about Pete Hegseth for a few weeks now that even if he were Atticus Finch, the character of Atticus Finch, he would not have the abilities to run the most complicated, biggest bureaucracy, most powerful bureaucracy in the world, and would be doing a disservice, as I always say, not only to America, not only to men and women in uniform, but to the President he's supposed to serve. But here we find he got booted, according to this New Yorker reporting, he got booted from heading up two vets groups because of the same drunken behavior, because of the same unfortunate behavior that his mother wrote about and that we reported on this past week. I've just got to ask you, Admiral, how in the world does any United States Senator confirm Pete Hegs to be Secretary of Defense.
- [34:27]
Jonathan Lemire
Okay, we don't have audio.
- [34:29]
Joe Scarborough
Hold on one sec. There we go. Let's try that again and I'll.
- [34:34]
David Rhode
Yeah, my fault, my bad.
- [34:37]
Joe Scarborough
The question is, again, given everything, how does any United States Senator, Republican or Democrat or Independent, vote for Pete Hegset to run the Department of Defense?
- [34:51]
David Rhode
I don't see it. Let's. Let's break it down into three items. One is this package of character issues, and it's the entire parts that you've talked about. There's just too many there for any rational observer to say, oh, that's a disgruntled employee, or that's somebody who he worked with a long time ago. These are recent. They're fresh. His mother's comments. My mom is watching today. Your mom's a pretty good source on most of us. I think all of that is almost in and of itself a character issue. That's significant. Secondly, you haven't mentioned it, but his comments about women being unqualified to serve in combat. I've commanded women in combat, a lot of them, including as a young captain of a ship with a mixed gender crew that went into combat, to aircraft carrier strike groups, to Naito itself. Women are 20% of the department of Defense and they have performed well in combat. Those comments alone, I think would be pretty close to disqualifying. That's kind of a policy piece. And then third, and finally you mentioned it, Joe and Mika. It's the management response responsibilities. I spent two and a half years as Secretary of Defense, Don Rumsfeld's senior military assistant, as a three star admiral. I've seen that job up close and personal. And you look at the people who have held it. I worked directly for Bob Gates, who led the CIA. Leon Panetta, who was Chief of Staff in the White House and led the CIA. That's the kind of level of experience and management you need to have. And when you put all that together, I'll just close with two words. Nuclear codes. This is a job that goes beyond the range of anything else in the Cabinet, in its power and its impact, the number of people, the complexity and the need to model appropriate behavior.
- [36:58]
Joyce Vance
So, Richard, you're obviously well acquainted with the federal government, with the Pentagon. Give us your sense as to Hegseth's qualifications for this job. But also considering all the allegations that are being put forth here, how is this being. Would this be perceived by the rest of the world for Hegseth to get this job?
- [37:17]
Michael Schnell
Well, look, he's manifestly unqualified for this. The one thing in his favor is he served in the military, and that's significant. But everything else, from the character issues to the lack of management issues, experience and so forth, is essentially disqualifying. This is not a close call. The rest of the world, particularly our allies who depend on us, they see this. This is the sort of thing that's unnerving. Look, Donald Trump has 340 million Americans to choose from. We've already been through Cash Patel and Pete Hegseth. We haven't even gotten to Tulsi Gabbard or RFK Jr. This is the well of possibility. People who are ideologically attuned to him, yet also qualified. There's an enormous number of people. Why the. Why this sort of stuff? Is it to simply satisfy his most extreme elements? These are people who simply. They probably couldn't get security clearances in some cases, Jonathan, the idea that they would then have this enormous responsibility. And the other part, by the way, the other thing a Secretary of Defense does, besides manage, he's also the President's advisor. So this is often the last person in the Oval Office with the President talking about things when we're about to commit American troops to combat. And again, the question you'd have to ask here, you have to ask about Tash Patel, who would be in these meetings if confirmed. Tulsi Gabbard. Are these the sort of people you want at the end of the day giving advice to the President? Do you trust their judgment? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
- [38:42]
Jonathan Lemire
All right, so here now is the text of the email that Pete Hegsheth's mother sent to him. And this is in 2018. It's rough, son. I've tried to keep quiet about your character and behavior, but after listening to the way you made Samantha feel today, I cannot stay silent. And as a woman and your mother, I feel I must speak out. You are an abuser of women. That's the ugly truth. And I have no respect for any man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around and uses women for his own power and ego. You are that man and have been for years. And as your mother, it pains me and embarrasses me to say that, but it is the sad, sad truth. I'm not a saint, far from it, so don't throw that in my face. But your abuse over the years to women, dishonesty, sleeping around, betrayal, debasing, belittling, needs to be called out. Sam is a good mother and a good person under the circumstances that you created And I know deep down that you know that for you to try and label her as unstable for your own advantage is despicable and abusive. Is there any sense of decency left in you? She did not ask for or deserve any of what has come to her by your hand. Neither did Meredith. I know you think this is one big competition and that we have taken her side. Bunk, we're on the side of good and that is not you. Go ahead and call me self righteous, I don't care. Don't you dare run to her and cry foul that we shared with us. That's what babies do and it's time for someone I wish it was a strong man to stand up to your abusive behavior and call it out, especially against women. We still love you, but we are broken by your behavior and lack of character. I don't want to write emails like this and never thought I would. If it damages our relationship further, then so be it. But at least I have said my peace. And yes, we are praying for you and you don't deserve to know how we are praying, so skip the snarky reply. I don't want an answer to this. I don't want a debate with you. You twist and abuse everything I say anyway. But on behalf of all the women and I know it's many you have abused in some way, I say get some help and take an honest look at yourself.
- [41:24]
Joyce Vance
Mom.
- [41:25]
Joe Scarborough
Admiral, I'll have you respond Repeatedly. The mother talk his mother. It is an extraordinarily painful letter. The mother repeatedly talks about him being an abuser of women, which lines up with the whistleblower report that came out last night, which lines up with the charges that I believe came out about this same time. Of course the mother, as we said at the top later recanted, but as lawyers would say, the fact patterns line up from the actions that the New Yorker reports this morning that the whistleblowers of these two vet organizations talked about before and then the letter. And then of course the allegations of rape and drunken behavior after that. Admiral, again I go back to the question how does anybody, when his own mother continually called him an abuser of women, how does anybody in the Senate have this man rise, run the Pentagon, run the armed services of the United States of America.
- [42:45]
David Rhode
First, that is a heartbreaking letter and I think we ought to just take a beat here and think of Penelope the mother and what she must be feeling as she writes a letter like that and then has to try and recant it, etc. My heart goes out to that family. So let's just park that now. Let's go back to the national security of the United States of America. That's an important thing. It's a vital thing. And Richard just outlined how this kind of selection hurts us with our allies. Think about how this is being received in Moscow, in Beijing, in Tehran, in Havana, in Damascus, in Karak caucus. This is not who we want to entrust our national security to. Again, character we've unpackaged, I think, pretty thoroughly at this point, the inability to model the behavior to lead at least 20% of the force, the women and number three, I just keep coming back to it, the management of the size and scale, 3 million people, $800 billion budget, it these are enormous burdens we pace on people like Robert Gates, Leon Panetta. I don't see how someone like Pete Hegseth is ready for those kind of burdens on any of these accounts.
- [44:19]
Joyce Vance
So, Michael, we had already heard last week before the Thanksgiving holiday that Hegseth nomination was in trouble now that Gates had bowed out. He was the one that Republican senators are really starting to feel leery about. In the wake of these new allegations, this new reporting, where do things stand now? Do you see at least four Republican senators who would say no?
- [44:39]
Patrick Adams
I suspect that this letter and the new reporting from the New Yorker will make that possibility much more greater. Right. As you mentioned before, this wasn't looking too great for Pete Hegseth before the Thanksgiving break. Senators were giving him the benefit of the doubt, saying that we'll allow him to come sit for his hearing. We'll have those conversations. But there was a lot of the skepticism.
- [44:58]
Joe Scarborough
Right.
- [44:58]
Patrick Adams
He was receiving a lot of that scrutiny. We are hearing from senators that they wanted to see more information. I suspect that this is going to put that into overdrive. Senators obviously don't have to comment on something if it drops over the weekend, if they don't want to. But they're coming back to the Capitol today. They're going to be in the building this afternoon. And I know for sure they're going to be peppered with questions about this. And we've already heard from some members. For example, Joni Ernst, Republican from Iowa, somebody who has been a very strong proponent against sexual assault in the military. She's already asked for more information on the 2017 allegations against Pete Hegseth. I suspect we'll hear that from more people on a more vocal level. And also, let's look ahead a little bit. If this nomination does make its way to a potential confirmation hearing, you know it's an if right now. We saw Matt Gaetz withdraw before we got to that point. If Pete Hegseth gets there, we're gonna be hearing about these allegations in very stark detail. Mika, just read that letter from Pete Hegseth's mother. I suspect we'll be hearing it be read from senators during that hearing over and over again. It's not the narrative that the Trump transition team wants in these waning days of the Biden administration as they prepare to head into their first hundred days. But this is taking up a lot of the oxygen and the room and it seems that this trickle of allegations against Hegseth just continue to come out.
- [46:18]
Jonathan Lemire
All right, retired four star Navy Admiral James Stavridis, thank you very much for coming on this morning. We appreciate your insight. And still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to get to President Biden's controversial decision to issue a full and unconditional pardon for his son Hunter. And the swift reaction from Capitol Hill. We're back in 90 seconds.
- [46:44]
Joe Scarborough
Hell's gates are open. Get ready to save humanity in Diablo 4, Vessel of Hatred. Continue the saga and carve your own path through Sanctuary's cursed lands with massive updates to character progression difficulties and loot systems for powerful demon slaying action. Unleash fierce skills as you embark on an immersive campaign. Tackle new co op dungeons and team up with allies using the new party fight. Hell awaits you. Save 35% off Diablo 4 and Vessel of Hatred today in the Diablo 4 expansion bundle. Rated M for mature.
- [47:16]
Joyce Vance
Hi, my name is Patrick Adams.
- [47:17]
Joe Scarborough
You may know me as Mike Ross on the TV series Suits.
- [47:20]
Mika Brzezinski
And I'm Sarah Rafferty and I play.
- [47:21]
Joe Scarborough
Donna Paulson on Suits. And we have a podcast called Sidebar where every week we watch and discuss.
- [47:26]
Joyce Vance
An episode of the show.
- [47:27]
Joe Scarborough
Because here's the thing, neither of us have really watched it. That's true. At least until now. So we're going to cover all nine seasons, share behind the scenes stories and talk to our co stars and friends.
- [47:36]
Mika Brzezinski
Like Gina Torres and Aaron Korsh.
- [47:38]
Joe Scarborough
So look, if you love Suits, Amazing, this podcast is for you. And if you've never watched Suits, also.
- [47:44]
Mika Brzezinski
Amazing, you can join us and we'll watch it together.
- [47:46]
Joe Scarborough
I think we're going to have a lot of fun.
- [47:47]
Mika Brzezinski
Listen to sidebar wherever you get your podcasts.
- [47:50]
Joyce Vance
And don't forget to follow the show.
- [47:51]
Michael Schnell
So you never miss an episode.
- [47:55]
Joe Scarborough
First and foremost, the thing that powers your business is power. And when it comes to power, Ford Pro has options. Now scratch that we've got every option, diesel, gas, hybrid and all electric. Plus they're all connected so you're always in the driver's seat. The power is yours. Visit fordpro.com today to learn more. Hey, welcome back to Morning Joe. Beautiful shot of Washington, D.C. it's today December.
- [48:29]
Jonathan Lemire
It is December, guys.
- [48:31]
Joe Scarborough
Get ready for Christmas, the first day of December. And what an absolutely second is today December 2nd?
- [48:38]
Jonathan Lemire
Yes, sir.
- [48:39]
Joe Scarborough
Are we in January yet?
- [48:40]
Jonathan Lemire
No.
- [48:40]
Joe Scarborough
There we are looking at Washington, D.C. on December 2nd. Thank you guys so much for being with us. I want to really quickly, Richard Haas, want you to give us a final word on Pete Hegseth, I know you heard what the admiral had to say, your concerns given all of the information that broke overnight and over the weekend.
- [49:04]
Michael Schnell
Well, I thought the admiral about got it right, Joe. You know, there's all the character issues in there piling up. And even if every single, you know, no single charge brings him down, the combination becomes really, really difficult for him to surmount. And then there's just simply the scale of this job. My first job in 79 was in the Pentagon. And you see the scale of what you've got to deal with. And now it's what, close to 3 million people, civilian and military, the budget. Plus this is a moment where we got real problems with the military, how we're spending the money. We don't have a force that's capable enough in some ways. We haven't absorbed the new technologies and integrated them. We don't have defense industrial base. So as big as this job traditionally has been, it's going to be bigger than ever now because we're also facing conflicts, actual conflicts in two geographies and a potential one in a third. So this, the sheer demands of this job have never been bigger. And the idea that we would take a chance at this moment on something so big and so important just seems to me rules this individual out.
- [50:12]
Joe Scarborough
Well, I mean, there seems to be far more than a chance. This is a talk about, about just an extraordinarily dangerous time for somebody ill suited for the position just based on his lack of experience. And you just start there. David Rhode, you add on top of that, again, you add on top of that the constitutional dimensions, the concerns that the military could be used against its own people. David, your concerns, given everything that you heard from the New Yorker that you saw in the letter that was published this weekend, the information before, the lack.
- [50:50]
Richard Haass
Of experience, the United States, I think, and for American democracy to work, there has to be some nonpartisan public service the military, the modern American military is a model of nonpartisanship. That's one of the strongest qualities that exists there. And I think by our hyper partisanship, this nomination is sort of an example of that. A real, again, a loyalist, very pro Trump, but lacking the qualifications. And it's a broader pattern we can talk about at the Pentagon and the FBI. It's just dangerous when you have politics playing such a major role in the US Military where American lives are at stake. And when you have politics and political loyalty again playing around role potentially at the FBI, which is again, an enormously powerful agency that protects Americans. But if the FBI comes at you unfairly, it also can can ruin your life.
- [51:45]
Joe Scarborough
Well, speaking of the FBI, Michael, let me circle back to you really quickly because John Lemire asked you about the possibility of Pete Hagseth actually getting through the Senate, which again, based on my reports, even before this week, weekend, he was already in serious trouble. Let's talk about we haven't spoken to you about Cash Patel yet. How comfortable are senators going to be, first of all, getting rid of Christopher Wray, when so I would guess the majority of senators right now think he did a good job since Donald Trump appointed him in 2017. But also how comfortable the Republican senator is going to be agreeing to the possibility of Cash Patel as FBI director director after he has promised to jail reporters, journalists, editors, judges and others that didn't go around with the 2020 conspiracy.
- [52:39]
Patrick Adams
Yeah, well, Joe, you present it perfectly there. The conversation surrounding Cash Patel is sort of split up into two different discussions. A, it's his background and some of the things that you mentioned, mass firings at the DOJ and the FBI, taking away security clearances of these career officials who investigated Trump during the 2016 election, shutting down the FBI headquarters. There's that background and that doesn't get into him serving during the Trump administration. Some questions that he got from the January 6th committee and so forth. And then you have the conversation about firing Christopher Wray. And that dynamic was presented by two Republican senators so far over the weekend. Again, same situation, news drops over the weekend. You only have a few reactions. There will definitely be questions about this in the Capitol later today. Chuck Grassley saying that while he didn't support Christopher Wray, he thinks that there needs to be a replacement there. He said Cash Patel is going to have to prove that he deserves confirmation in this situation. And then sort of the other side of the coin, we heard from Mike Rounds, who, Joe, you mentioned earlier in the show, Republican from South Dakota. He said that he thinks that Christopher Wray has done a good job thus far. He was first, of course, nominated to be FBI director in 2017. His term isn't set to expire until 2027. And Mike Rounds also stopping short, very short of in full endorsement of Cash Patel. So these lukewarm responses saying that he has to prove that he deserves confirmation are notable because we heard from a lot of Trump loyalists in the Capitol and also some of these hardline Republicans who say that Cash Patel is going to be a great pick and he's going to get confirmed people like Marsha Blackburn, Ted Cruz. So this lukewarm reaction and this cautious approach is notable. And those folks are going to be the ones to watch when we talk about who are going to be these potentially three or four Republicans who would take that vote to tank one of Trump's nominations.
- [54:31]
Joe Scarborough
Well, and it is notable, and it reminds me of what we were hearing after Matt Gaetz was selected as attorney general. That, of course, ended up with Pam Bondi as a selection.
- [54:42]
Jonathan Lemire
All right. So let's move on because President Biden has issued a full and unconditional pardon for his son, Hunter. Biden announced the controversial decision last night after previously saying he would not use his presidential powers to do so. In a statement, Biden argues Hunter has been selectively and unfairly prosecuted. And he wrote in part this there's been an effort to break Hunter, who has been five and a half years sober, even in the face of unrelenting attacks and selective prosecution, in trying to break Hunter. They've tried to break me. And there is no reason to believe it will stop here. Enough is enough. Hunter Biden would have faced sentencing on December 12 for his conviction on federal gun charges and a separate sentencing on December 16 for federal tax evasion charges, which he pled guilty to in September.
- [55:37]
Joe Scarborough
With us now, let's BRINGGING IN Former U.S. attorney and MSNBC legal analyst Joyce Vance. She is co host of of the Sisters in Law podcast. Joyce, we will get to you about this extraordinarily important news, plus your reaction to the Iron bowl on Saturday night. First, let's go to Ken Delanian at the Justice Department. Ken, curious, what is the reaction in and around the Justice Department on this decision by Joe Biden to pardon Hunter?
- [56:07]
Ken Delanian
Sadness, Joe, and some disquiet, not so much about the pardon, but about the rationale that President Biden gave. If he had just stopped at saying, you know, Hunter Biden's my son and any father would do this, that would have been one thing. But he, he asserted that the prosecution of Hunter Biden had been political, had been selective. And DOJ officials, current former. Really balk at that because there's no evidence that that's true. And we should remember that David Weiss, the special counsel in this case, he was the U.S. attorney in Delaware under Donald Trump, and. And Joe Biden. And the Biden White House made the decision to keep him on, to continue the Hunter Biden investigation long before Merrick Garland was ever named to be the Attorney General and confirmed as Attorney General. So that was a Biden White House decision. David Weiss was the prosecutor. They investigated the case. And the reason that Hunter Biden is facing prison time, by some accounts, he was looking at three years in prison based on the two on the tax and the gun convictions, is because he and his lawyers walked away from a no jail time plea deal. And they didn't like it because it didn't give them immunity from different kinds of conduct. And they were concerned that he could still be prosecuted under a Trump administration. And so he went to trial, he lost, and he pled guilty. And he was in a serious predicament, which is probably one of the reasons that Joe Biden felt compelled to pardon him, to spare him from prison. But people are very concerned that. That what this does is it normalizes Donald Trump's worldview, that the DOJ is not on the level, that it's politicized, that it's not nonpartisan. And that's the big concern that I'm hearing from my sources.
- [57:46]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah. NBC's Ken Delaney. And thank you very much for your reporting. So, Joyce Vance, your thoughts on Hunter Biden being pardoned by his father.
- [57:58]
Mika Brzezinski
So I hate to disagree with my friend Ken Delanian, but look, the reality here is if this was any, anyone other than Joe Biden's son, no one would object to a pardon on these facts. The pardon process is meant to do mercy. It's meant to do justice. It's often used for people, most frequently used for people who are guilty of the crimes that they've committed, where there are extenuating factors at work. And as I say, if this was not Joe Biden's son, no one would object. But we are clearly here because this is Joe Biden son. While judges may not have seen fit to dismiss the cases under high legal standards for selective and vindictive prosecution, there's a clear feeling here that these cases would not have been indicted if anyone other than Joe Biden's son was involved in the conduct. And on that basis, you can understand how these this pardon makes sense under.
- [58:57]
Joe Scarborough
The surface circumstances, and I've been reporting.
- [58:59]
Joyce Vance
For a better part of a year now about the weight, the personal toll this took on President Biden, the concern he had about his son and the guilt that he felt. He would tell some of his closest allies that he feels like Hunter Biden wouldn't have faced these charges or he could have gotten that plea deal were he not president and Republicans tried to use Hunter Biden against him as a political weapon here. And David Rhode, I think some of the outcry is because. Because President Biden himself and the White House repeatedly said over and over they would not do this. And that, I think, is fueling some of the anger, though many feel like, well, a father, of course, would do this for his son. Let's talk about the Trump reaction, though, including, and I think we should be clear, he probably was gonna do pardons anyway. But he's already seized upon this as a talking point that he could do the same, particularly for January 6th convicts.
- [59:47]
Richard Haass
Yeah, that's the sort of scary dynamic here, is you have Donald Trump saying Now he's equating January 6th with these other acts by Hunter Biden, and that's the difference here. And that what's the dangers that were normalizing January 6th, that what happened there was not unusual, and those were just political prosecutions. So I do somewhat agree with Ken that the problem for the public is that they're gonna see the Justice Department and the whole kind of judicial system is corrupt. The presidents pardon their sons. Trump pardoned the Kushners. Charles Kushner made him the ambassador to France. And so this is this pattern, it seems, of this corruption of Washington that Americans are so frustrated with.
- [60:31]
Joyce Vance
Yeah. And to that point, let's remember Jared Kushner's father, Charles Kushner, was convicted of crimes pardoned by Donald Trump in 2020. And over the weekend, Joe Mika named ambassador to France. And we should be clear, this is far from the first time time that a president has used the pardon power for a family member, for a close ally. But this is one with Hunter Biden, of course, has been such a flashpoint for Republicans for years now. And we should note, congressional investigations into Hunter Biden about wrongdoing of father and son went nowhere. But it's no surprise they're going to.
- [61:06]
Joe Scarborough
Grab on this now, of course. Joyce, before we let you go, I do want to ask you about your concern about Cash Patel possibly being the FBI director again, a possibility. Donald Trump would have to fire Christopher Wray first. And as he said he wants to do. But then he's talking about putting in somebody who has promised to jail judges. Jail journalists go after people inside the Justice Department who did not go along with the 2020 conspiracy theory about stolen elections. What are the dangers of putting in somebody that has promised he's going to jail journalists if they didn't go along with the stop the steal conspiracy theory?
- [61:52]
Mika Brzezinski
So Kash Patel doesn't have the experience or the temperament to lead the FBI. And it's exactly that kind of statement that you're referencing that demonstrates the fact that it's dangerous to put someone like this in charge. The director of the FBI has an enormous amount of power, enormous resources at his disposal. If Donald Trump is hell bent on engaging in revenge prosecutions, then Cash Patel is the kind of person you go to to implement those sorts of policies. But look, I have a lot of confidence in the men and women of the FBI. FBI is, of course, one of the four component law enforcement agencies at the Justice Department. These are people who understand that they are only supposed to follow lawful orders. These are people who inspire institutionally, have a way to stand up and push back if they're asked to engage in prosecutions that aren't appropriate. I would hate to see democracy rest on the backs of these people. But I have confidence that if it comes down to that, they will push back. This is not a good pick for director of the FBI.
- [63:00]
Joe Scarborough
Well, you know, you know, Joyce, what you just said, I think is so important that the men and women of the FBI. I'm talking to Joyce here. Can we see, Joyce, the men and women of the FBI, you believe the men and the women of the Justice Department will stand up and be counted and do their jobs. You could say the same about not only the generals and the admirals, but the rank and file men and women. The United States Armed Forces will do the same. We have already seen Republican senators stand up and say no to the possibility of Matt Gaetz. I've heard reporting that they're about to do the same thing on Pete Hegseth even before this weekend. We have seen that. And I just. Before we go, I want you to follow up on that, too. We saw it with federal judges and Federalist Society members who became federal judges doing the same thing over four years. So the message that you're bringing here is that even in the face of these terrible challenges and terribly dangerous elections, you believe that there will be people that will stand up for the Constitution, for constitutional norms and freedom.
- [64:28]
Mika Brzezinski
I absolutely do. There's a strong history, a strong tradition of speaking truth to power inside of the Justice Department. Career employees are not political. And there's a saying we used to have in my office, that we were bees. We'd be here when they come, we'd be here when they go. Your job as a career Justice Department employee is to set the politics aside and to do the right things for the right reasons in the right way. I think we, we can count on the career ranks across government to do that. And Joe, I think your point here is that we are a constitutional democracy. We have a system of checks and balances. So whether it's senators standing up and doing their job, refusing to confirm facially unfit nominees, whether it's the courts holding the line, whether it's executive branch employees checking power, that's the heart of our system. And Donald Trump and his followers seek to increase the power of the presidency. They're looking for an all powerful unitary executive. The battle of the next four years, the battle for the heart and soul of democracy will be seeing if the guardrails, these very real guardrails that are set up in the Constitution, the three branches, if they will hold against Donald Trump's abuses.
- [65:46]
Jonathan Lemire
Former U.S. attorney Joyce Vance, NBC News national security editor David Rhode and the Hill Michael Schnell. Thank you so much for being on this morning.
- [65:56]
Joe Scarborough
Hell's gates are open. Get ready to save humanity in Diablo 4, Vessel of Hatred. Continue the saga and carve your own path through Sanctuary's cursed lands with massive updates to character progression difficulties and loot systems for powerful demon slaying action. Unleash fierce skills as you embark on an immersive campaign. Tackle new co op dungeons and team up with allies using the new party finder. Hell awaits you. Save 35% off Diablo 4 and Vessel of Hatred today in the Diablo 4 expansion bundle. Rated M for mature.