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- [00:00]
Planned Parenthood Representative
This podcast is supported by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Planned Parenthood Federation of America exists so all people can get access to the sexual and reproductive care and education they need. Planned Parenthood organizations advocate for health equity and policies that allow people the freedom to control their own bodies, lives and futures. More than 2 million patients a year rely on Planned Parenthood Health center services like STI testing and treatment, birth control, gender affirming care, abortion, cancer screenings and more. Reproductive healthcare and rights are under attack from public officials who are out of step with the will of the vast majority of Americans. The constitutional right to abortion has been stolen and politicians in 47 states have introduced bills that would block people from getting the sexual and reproductive care they need. Planned Parenthood knows that equitable access to healthcare, including safe, legal abortion, is a human right. Right now, Planned Parenthood needs your help to protect access to healthcare. Donate today by visiting plannedparenthood.org protect UNHCR.
- [01:03]
UNHCR Representative
The UN refugee agency responds to emergencies and provides long term solutions for refugees in more than 130 countries including Ukraine, Syria and Afghanistan. UNHCR supports people forced to flee from war, violence and persecution at their greatest moment of need. During the winter, people forced to flee are faced with increased hardships and costs. As temperatures drop, families struggle to meet basic needs like heating their shelters, buying warm clothes and cooking hot meals. Refugees and displaced people are struggling to survive like never before. Funding shortfalls and rising food prices forced UNHCR to dial back its life saving aid to vulnerable families around the world. Donor support is crucial to address the need for essentials for millions of families. Without sufficient funding, life saving assistance will be threatened, cutting off a vital lifeline for refugees and displaced people. This is a tremendous challenge for people forced to Flee. Donate to USA for UNHCR by visiting unrefugees.org winter all gifts before December 31st are automatically matched.
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Historian or Political Analyst
We know the strength of America. We are strong. We can regain our unity. We can regain our confidence. We are the heirs of generations who survived threat much more powerful and awesome than those that challenge us now.
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Jonathan Lemere
Former President Jimmy Carter has passed away at the age of 100. This morning we are remembering his lasting impact both in and out of office. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, December 30th. I'm Jonathan Lemere. Joe and Mika have the morning off. Thank you so much for joining us and joining us for this conversation. We have the co host of the Weekend on msnbc, Simone Sanders Townsend, President Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haass and author, columnist and political analyst Jonathan Alter. He wrote the acclaimed 2021 biography of President Carter titled His Very Best. And with us by phone is Rogers Chair in the American Presidency at Vanderbilt University, the historian, our friend John Meacham. We will get to all of the our wonderful panel in just a moment, but we're going to start this morning with reflections on the remarkable life of the 39th President of the United States. Mika Brzezinski had a front row seat to the Carter White House and now brings us a deeper look into the late president's legacy.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
He was the man from Plains, Governor.
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Historian or Political Analyst
Carter from Georgia running for president, an.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
Outsider who rose from the southern soil to the ultimate seat of power.
- [03:50]
Historian or Political Analyst
I'd like to announce that I am a candidate for president.
- [03:53]
Simone Sanders Townsend
America turned to Jimmy Carter after years of upheaval, a person of integrity to calm a pained Nation. Born in 1924, his boyhood home lacked electricity and indoor plumbing. They were peanut farmers. And at an early age, Carter declared himself born again.
- [04:13]
Historian or Political Analyst
I worship Jesus Christ, whom we Christians consider to be the Prince of Peace.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
As World War II raged in the Atlantic and the Pacific, he attended the US Naval Academy, graduating in 1946. Just weeks after receiving his commission, he married 18 year old Rosalynn Smith, his lifelong neighbor.
- [04:34]
Historian or Political Analyst
I went over next door to look at the little girl who was a newborn baby on the street. So I've known her ever since the first day she was born.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
The Carters growing family traveled the country on military assignment and Jimmy worked on launching America's first nuclear submarines. When Carter's father died in 1953, Jimmy left the Navy and took over the family farm.
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Historian or Political Analyst
And I'm proud of a heritage that shows concern for the working men and women who are the backbone of our great nation.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
It provided the platform to launch a political career in the turbulent 1960s, when civil rights and Supreme Court rulings were changing Southern politics.
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Historian or Political Analyst
But I didn't realize at that early age that my friends, mothers and fathers couldn't vote. They couldn't serve on a jury. The schools were inferior.
- [05:22]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Carter ran for governor, lost, and came back four years later to win. In 1970, he became the face of the new south, painted in Dixie colors on the COVID of Time magazine. But Carter didn't have much time to build a national profile constricted to just one term. He announced his bid for the White House during his final weeks in office. And Carter was so unknown that a television quiz show panel was unable to name him.
- [05:50]
Historian or Political Analyst
Come down to Georgia to see us.
- [05:51]
Richard Haass
All right, we'll come down here and make A movie.
- [05:53]
Jonathan Alter
Thank you for being with us.
- [05:54]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Southerners were long written off as presidential contenders, and few thought Carter would make it. The New York Times wrote, as a national political base, the governorship of Georgia has been only slightly more awesome than the governorship of American Samoa.
- [06:10]
Historian or Political Analyst
Obviously, I'd like to win all the primaries. I can't deny that.
- [06:12]
Simone Sanders Townsend
But Carter was propelled to the nomination by early wins in Iowa, New Hampshire and elsewhere, defying expectations as Watergate and the Vietnam War had shaken Americans confidence in their leaders. He was accessible and candid, sometimes too candid, like when he caused a stir, admitting to Playboy magazine, I've looked on a lot of women with lust. Carter said he regretted the interview. His opponents pounced, couldn't understand frankly why.
- [06:42]
Jonathan Lemere
He was in Plain Boy magazine, and we'll give him the bunny vote.
- [06:45]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Carter went into the general election with a big lead until October, when the race tightened between him and President Gerald Ford, who had a quarter century's worth of experience in Washington. But on election night, Americans turned to the peanut farmer.
- [07:01]
Historian or Political Analyst
If I can tap the greatness that's in you and in the American people, we can make our nation's government great and a source of pride once again.
- [07:09]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Carter walked the mile and a half length of his inaugural parade hand in hand with Rosalynn, to display his openness to the American people. The president sought to lead by example throughout his administration, a frugal commander in chief, conserving energy by putting on a sweater. The press office was chillier than usual today.
- [07:30]
Jonathan Lemere
He ordered the thermostats in the White.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
House turned down to 65 degrees. His focus on foreign policy would define his presidency for better, for and worse.
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Historian or Political Analyst
We will not seek to dominate nor dictate to others as we Americans have concluded one chapter in our nation's history and are beginning to work on another.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
My father, Zbigniew Brzezinski, who had been informally advising him, joined his staff as national security adviser.
- [07:55]
Jon Meacham
He had a good sense of humor.
- [07:57]
Historian or Political Analyst
In kind of waking you up in the morning fashion.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
But President Carter was serious about making a lasting impact on the world. A treaty over the Panama Canal, an agreement with the Soviet Union on the nuclear arms control. Yet his proudest legacy was his most personal. As governor of Georgia, Carter had traveled to the Middle east and bathed in the River Jordan, inspiring him to aggressively seek peace in the Holy Land. He studied the profiles of the leaders of Israel and Egypt and brought them to camp David for 13 days of tense negotiations.
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Historian or Political Analyst
Begin. Sadat. Were so completely and personally incompatible, they couldn't even be in the same room without exploding in anger. So I kept them apart. They never saw each other for 10 days.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
At its end. Peace accords uniting bitter enemies.
- [08:50]
Richard Haass
The scene in the White House last.
- [08:51]
Jonathan Lemere
Night was almost unbelievable. Menachem Begin of Israel and Anwar Sadat of Egypt in a bear hug will be the first time in history that an Arab nation has agreed to a peace treaty with Israel.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
Foreign policy was the high point of his presidency, but also the low. Islamic fundamentalists took control of Iran's government and seized the American Embassy, taking over 50American citizens hostage. A crisis Carter was unable to resolve.
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Historian or Political Analyst
That was the worst year of my life by far. I never went to bed the last three days I was in the White House to get the hostages released.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
Tensions escalated with the Soviet Union.
- [09:29]
Historian or Political Analyst
The Cold War was the critical issue. The president was decisive in 1979 when the Soviet Union went into Afghanistan. I warned Russia that Soviet Union then, if they went into a different country, we would respond militarily with the weapons that we had at our disposal.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
It led to a boycott of the Olympic Games.
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Historian or Political Analyst
I would not support the sending of an American team to the Olympics. Ours will not go.
- [09:51]
Simone Sanders Townsend
There were other crises on the home front. In a nationally televised address, Carter spoke to what he called a crisis of confidence in America.
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Historian or Political Analyst
This is from a Southern governor. Mr. President, you're not leading this nation. You're just managing the government.
- [10:10]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Though initially well received, many objected to the tone of what was soon dubbed the malaise speech. Challenged from within his own party, Carter persevered. But his re election bid was devastated by 10 simple words.
- [10:25]
Historian or Political Analyst
Are you better off than you were four years ago?
- [10:29]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Carter left the White House humbled, but not anywhere close to finished with public life. Founding the Carter Center, a concrete building set into a hillside. A sturdy foundation for unprecedented ambition with an agenda for seeking peace in global hotspots. Housing for the homeless. With his passion for Habitat for Humanity and being a voice for the diseased and depressed.
- [10:56]
Historian or Political Analyst
We treated 36 million people for what the World Health Organization calls neglected tropical diseases. And this year we'll go over 70 million people. That's about seven times as many as live in Georgia, as a matter of fact.
- [11:11]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Out of office for more than four decades, he defined the modern post presidency. He faced the final challenge of his life with the same abiding faith that propelled him into history.
- [11:23]
Historian or Political Analyst
Morning, everybody.
- [11:26]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Teaching a Bible class a Sunday after announcing treatment for brain cancer and soldiering on with a belief in God and a love for his fellow Americans that lifted him up and brought him back.
- [11:40]
Historian or Political Analyst
No matter where we are in the world. We're always looking forward to getting back home.
- [11:45]
Jonathan Lemere
Mika Brzezinski there. Jonathan Alter, you, of course, wrote a biography, a definitive biography of President Carter published a few years ago. But this morning, share with us, if you will, a few of your top lines, a few of your biggest thoughts about President Carter, someone who so acclaimed in his post presidency and you argue underrated while in office.
- [12:09]
Jon Meacham
Well, Jonathan, President Carter led what can only be called an epic American life. He was born, as we know, 100 years ago, 1924, but it might as well have been the 19th century even earlier. No indoor plumbing, no electricity, no mechanized farm equipment. So in some senses, he was actually the only person you could think of who effectively lived in three centuries, the 19th century, the 20th century, of course, where he was involved with all of the great movements of that century, not to mention being president. And then the 21st, where he's been on the cutting edge and the Carter center has been central in the challenges of global health, conflict resolution, democracy promotion, the big issues of our century. And so I think it's important to look at him beyond this easy shorthand that you see everywhere. You know, mediocre president, great former president. Actually, that cliche is only half true. He was an inspirational former president who redefined that role, as Joe Biden said yesterday. But he was a much better president than people recognize. He's not going to go on Mount Rushmore. But he was in many ways a visionary American president who put a lot of points on the board for the environment with his domestic legislation and other areas and internationally, even beyond Camp David, the Panama Canal treaties, his human rights policy, normalization of relations with China, even bringing the hostages home safely. The foreign policy record of Jimmy Carter is much undervalued. And I think there's a long overdue appraisal underway of his presidency.
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Jonathan Lemere
So, Jon Meacham, let's turn to you now. How should we be thinking, in your estimation, about Jimmy Carter today, a son of the South, a man of devout faith who has presidency and post presidency, triumph and failure, so defined by the world stage?
- [14:36]
Political Analyst
Well, I think it's I agree with my friend John Alter. And the way I think about President Carter is he's a complicated man and driven by, like all people in the public arena, driven by different elements of ambition and service. And when you look at most American presidents, most of our key leaders in the arena, you have this tension. And what's so fascinating to me about President Carter is here he is an evangelical Christian, a New Testament Christian who had A fascination with Reinhold Niebuhr, who is the Protestant theologian who wrote books like the titles like the Tragedy of American History. And so you have someone who believed in the capacity of human nature to make our lives, the lives of the less fortunate, better, stronger, even nobler. But you also have someone who recognized the limitations of human endeavor. And the epigraph of his great campaign book, why not the best in 1975, 76 was from Niebuhr. And the quotation was it's the sad duty of politics to establish justice in a sinful world. It's not exactly a bumper sticker, but there's a great truth to that. And so what I think we are examining what we're going to experience this week is something that often happens in American life, which is great public commemorations, great public contemplations often tell us as much about ourselves as they do about the person being contemplated and commemorated. And what you're seeing, I think with the passing of Jimmy Carter is a sad but illuminating, sad but illuminating instance of someone who, while imperfect, believed in the centrality of character, the centrality of abiding creed at a moment in American politics where character is not at the forefront of most voters minds.
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Jonathan Lemere
So, Richard Haass, with that in mind, let's dive into President Carter's foreign policy record. Yes, highlighted in many ways by the hostages, highlighted by the Camp David accords, but also set against the backdrop of the Cold War, a time so tense where there was a moment when his national security adviser, Mr. Brzezinski, thought that the nuclear end to the globe was coming, that it was just moments away. Talk to us about that particular time in American life.
- [17:44]
Richard Haass
Jonathan, Let me just full disclosure. I was at the Pentagon during the Carter presidency, the last nearly two years of it. And what we saw at that time with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan as well as the revolution in Iran, there was a real sense of upheaval. And the optimism about how history was going was what was interrupted. People forget. Towards the end of his term, Jimmy Carter dramatically increased defense spending. He put down the foundations of what became the American military capacity to intervene in the Persian Gulf and Middle East. In taking a step back, what was so interesting to me, and I actually agree with Jonathan Alto, I do think he was underestimated on his foreign policy, in part because of the Iran hostage crisis, which in many ways was his political undoing, perhaps along with inflation. But what was so interesting to me about Jimmy Carter is he encapsulated, he embodied the two great traditions of American foreign policy. He was at one in the same time an idealist brokering peace in the Middle East. It was, shall we say, a long shot at the time. His views about human rights in the Soviet Union, at the same time he was a realist. The normalization of relations with Communist China, recognizing them, de recognizing Taiwan, the nuclear arms control agreements with the, with the Soviet Union, the Panama Canal treaties, highly controversial. But from his point of view, this was the realistic way to go if we wanted to make sure that there wouldn't be violence on the scene and the United States and others could continue to use the, use the canal. So that to me is what is so interesting. Most other presidents have struggled with getting that balance right. And again, I think as time passes, he will be seen as a successful one term president in foreign policy, interestingly enough, not unlike the subject of someone else I worked for. And Jon Meacham wrote about George Herbert Walker Bush, another largely successful foreign policy president who's seen better with the passage of time. And I think it raises the interesting question of whether that might also be Joe Biden's fate.
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UNHCR Representative
Jonathan Alter, Simone Sanders Townsend here. You know, President Carter, he had a strong civil rights legacy. It's not known to many and I'm sure you are very familiar, but he was the senior Dr. King. Dr. King's father was a close confidant of Dr. King's father, advised him on many things. Civil rights is a key part of his legacy and so is Ronald Reagan. Talk to us a little bit about the legacy that President Carter left and how in the end of his presidency, Reaganism was ushered in and now that transformation to what we now know as MAGA in the current iteration of this Republican Party.
- [20:48]
Jon Meacham
So just on the civil rights question, the journey that Jimmy Carter was on, from growing up in the brutal Jim Crow south to becoming a president of the United States who took the government from tokenism to genuine diversity. And he appointed more black judges than any of his predecessors, all of them combined. Same thing with women. He put in more women to the bench than all of his predecessors combined, times five. But it was a bumpy journey. And I remember when I was interviewing him, one of my many interviews with him for the, for the book, at one point he stopped me and he said, you know, I never claimed to be part of the civil rights movement. So he never knew Martin Luther King, even though, you know, he was serving in the state Senate in Atlanta, but he represented a very conservative district in Georgia. And so he actually tacked right, not to the racist right, but he tacked right early in his career.
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Jonathan Lemere
And.
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Jon Meacham
And then when he became governor of Georgia, within seconds of taking the oath of office, he said the time for racial discrimination is over. And this was a shocking statement in Georgia politics. It put him on the map nationally in 1971, and there was a walkout of his white colleagues. And from then on, he basically spoke, spent the second half of his life making up for what he did not do in the first half, that is stand up for civil rights. And he put Dr. King's portrait in the Georgia state Capitol and became very close to Daddy King, Coretta King, and went on to this career that we're familiar with in civil rights. As far as Reagan goes, you know, the idea of Make America Great Again maga, that notion actually started with Ronald Reagan. So he was using some of these same nationalist arguments, including against the Panama Canal, that we now can see in the Trump movement. There is a connective tissue between Reagan and Trump. Trump, although Reagan had some character. And so we were living in a time when even though politics was rough, there were these guardrails that existed in the Carter Reagan period. And these are now at back at issue. And we're asking questions about decency in our politics that are raised by the life and career of Jimmy Carter, who was a man of peace and great decency.
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Jonathan Lemere
So, Jon Meacham, let's dive in a little more about Carter. The man here, someone married for more than seven decades, you know, had a complicated family history and an upbringing, to be sure, but then one who did, as Jonathan Alters say, both asparticularly as post presidency, tried to devote himself to peace, sometimes raising the ire of whoever the current occupant of the Oval Office was. Talk to us about what drove Jimmy Carter, not just, not just the politician or the president, but the person.
- [24:37]
Political Analyst
Well, John, the title of John's body biography of the late president captures a great part of the drive of ambition. And so I hesitate to say it with John right here, but there was a moment where Carter was asked by a senior legendary naval figure, had he done his best at the had he done his very best at Annapolis. And Carter said no. And the question was, well, why not? And I think that there was a kind of, and I say this as a Southerner, there was, particularly in the 20th century, a sense that Southerners had to prove themselves in the national arena. The south was seen as backward. It was seen as, you know, a Southern accent was, was not a calling card to Richard Haass, Council on Foreign Relations to link everybody here And I think President Carter and Mrs. Carter and John can check me on this, were very conscious that they had a long way to go to impress the world outside of Plains Georgia, outside of Atlanta, outside of the state. And they were emblems really of a kind of self improvement. These were tireless people. They never stopped learning, reading, creating, working. And I think it was for the greatest of motives. But I also think there was a little bit of I once heard Mrs. Carter talk about this. There was a there was she wanted to also make clear, say to people in Washington or New York that, you know what, we did read books down here. You know, we did go to museums down here. We were engaged in the broad arguments and the cultural currents of the time. And so you have really with this couple from south central Georgia, emblems of, as John said a moment ago, of the mobility of the American century of people who were from the literal provinces, who by their merit also by the institutions of American democracy, public schools, the military academy, military service, electoral politics. These were folks who took advantage of the engines of social mobility that were available to white people in that era. And they rose to the pinnacle and they made a difference. And again, complicated, interesting people who really did give their all, decade after decade after decade in a tireless way to make the world a better place. It's a wonderful legacy.
- [27:58]
Jonathan Lemere
And on that, presidential historian Jon Meacham, our sincere thanks that you could join us this morning. And political analyst Jonathan Alter. We're so grateful that you could join us today as well. Your book, your book, his very Best, a must read, as we all think, this week, about the life and legacy of Jimmy Carter. Thank you, Jonathan. Richard Haass, stay with us. Still ahead here on MORNING joe, we'll bring you the very latest on the deadly plane crash at a South Korean airport and what investigators are saying about the possible cause. Plus, the apology from Vladimir Putin over the civilian airliner that US Officials say might have been misidentified and then shot down by Russian forces last week. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be back in just 90 seconds. Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy, live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.
- [28:58]
UNHCR Representative
You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of ad free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details apply.
- [29:17]
Planned Parenthood Representative
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- [30:17]
Jonathan Lemere
This morning, investigations are underway after a passenger plane crashed at a South Korean airport yesterday, leaving 179 people dead. Just two passengers from that plane survived. NBC News international correspondent Megan Fitzgerald has the latest and we do want to warn some viewers now. Some of the images you're about to.
- [30:38]
UNHCR Representative
See are disturbing, horrifying images from a South Korean airport. A passenger plane skidding across the Runway after the landing gear appears to have failed before crashing into a wall and bursting into a massive fireball. Miraculously, first responders who rushed to the scene managed to pull two people out alive. But many of the families of the 179 others waited inside the MUN airport just 180 miles south of Seoul as the names of the deceased were announced. Screams of agony and devastation filling the airport as South Korean officials offered an apology and vowing a swift and thorough investigation. So far, the flight radar for tracking the plane's journey from Bangkok, Thailand to South Korea didn't appear to show anything unusual. But officials say a bird strike may have started the deadly chain of events which caused the pilot to issue a mayday warning. When you see this video of the landing of this aircraft, what does that tell you?
- [31:46]
Jonathan Lemere
This crash was tough to watch and it's tough to piece together based on what we know so far. Bird strikes don't bring down airplanes like this, nor do they prevent landing gear from extending.
- [32:00]
UNHCR Representative
But it comes after a weekend of aviation incidents. A KLM flight heading to Amsterdam made an emergency landing in Norway after what the airline described as a loud noise. And an Air Canada flight in Halifax experienced a suspected landing gear issue as well, preventing it from reaching the terminal. And back in South Korea, so many unanswered questions surrounding one of their most deadly plane crashes in history.
- [32:28]
Jonathan Lemere
We'll bring you any updates as they come on. Truly terrible tragedy there in South Korea. Elsewhere, the White House this morning, just a few moments ago, is announcing that an additional $2.5 billion in U.S. support is heading to Ukraine. President Joe Biden says the funding will provide Ukraine with an immediate influx of capabilities that it continues to use to great effect on the battlefield and longer term supplies of air defense, artillery and other critical weapons systems. Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin has offered an apology to the president of Azerbaijan following last week's deadly plane crash in Kazakhstan, but stopped short of taking responsibility for the downing of the airliner. This comes amid mounting allegations that the plane was hit by two was hit by Russian air defenses. Two US Military officials told NBC News on Friday that there was intelligence that indicating that Russians may have misidentified the plane as a drone and then shot it down. 38 people were killed when the plane crashed. Richard, let's turn to you on on this. Putin stopped short of saying that Russia was responsible, but did offer this apology. Certainly this is not the first time they have been accused credibly of taking down a civilian aircraft. And now we have news this morning from the White House. More aid heading from Washington to Kiev set against the backdrop of a clicking talk of a ticking clock with January 20th and a brand new approach we assume for President Trump coming to office. How would you assess where things stand right now in that conflict in Ukraine?
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Richard Haass
Well, in terms of Ukraine, Jonathan, the battlefield is not all that different from what it was three years ago when Russia invaded in February of 22. In recent months, the Russian troops have begun to gain a little bit more territory in the east. They're attacking civilian infrastructure. So there's a kind of war fatigue in Ukraine. I think rushing this equipment to Ukraine, on one hand it's needed, on the other hand, it's not going to change any of the fundamentals. I think what's really important is to nail down the position of the Ukrainian government that in exchange for American military support, they're prepared to compromise not their principles or their long term goals, but accept some type of an interim or temporary ceasefire. And the reason I say that so when Donald Trump becomes president, I think it's important that he sees Vladimir Putin rather than President Zelensky as the impediment to peace because, you know, Donald Trump has talked about how much he wants to bring this war to an end. Well, again, I think it's important that he sees the problem in Moscow and not in Kyiv.
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Jonathan Lemere
Richard. So let's, let's talk about where Putin stands right now. There's been, we've spent years talking about the state of this, of this conflict, his, his grip on power, you know, that it seemed like he was vulnerable a year or two back. There was the Prigozhin Wagner Group mutiny that he put down. Certainly Russia has grown that much more of a repress society since the war in Ukraine began. But there's also real warning signs with the Russian economy as well as the untoward toll of this conflict. In terms of men going into battle and being killed or coming back wounded, how would you assess, how is Putin right now? How is his grip on power? What is Russia's strength writ large right now? You know, coming up on the three year mark of this war, my guess.
- [36:08]
Richard Haass
Jonathan, is Putin strongly in power until he's not. The parallel that comes to mind, and a lot of people are not going to buy this, I expect, is Syria. This is a highly personalistic regime. Putin has basically destroyed institutions in Russia. What he's done instead is built a kind of cronyist government. He does control a war narrative that seems to be fairly effective, even though the cost, the economic and military and human costs of the war have been astronomical. Russia has not realized its ambitions in Ukraine. So that's where things stand. The economy is weakening. The price of oil, which Russia is so dependent on has gone down in recent months. The sanctions have had some effect. So again, it's the reason that I think it's so important that if Donald Trump wants peace, what he basically says to Putin is we're going to continue to arm Ukraine. They're willing to compromise. We'll, we'll relax some of the sanctions against you, Vlad, but only if you compromise. So I actually think this, this backdrop does give Donald Trump something to work with. I'm not going to suggest it. It's easy. Putin's going to hate compromising. He's going to have to spin it as a, as a victory. But I do think the, the cost of the war and the weakening of the Russian economy give Donald Trump something, something to work with here.
- [37:35]
Jonathan Lemere
So, Richard, your latest Substack article has the headline no more 2024, in which you look back at the events of this past year, writing this the year of elections proved terrible for most incumbents in their parties. While the underlying reasons behind the outcomes varied from reactions to corruption, poor economic performance and or simply a desire for something new, the results were largely consistent. The shift away from the Democrats occurred despite President Joe Biden presiding over an economy that was and is the envy of much of the world. What hurt Democrats was a perception held by many Americans that the country's economy was not working for them. Persistent inflation played a role in Trump's victory, but the election turned on more than the economy stupid. In this case, it was an out of control border that allowed some 8 million people to enter the country illegally and out of control wokeness and a president in obvious decline who should have declared his intention not to run after the 2022 midterm elections, but hung on for far too long, dropping out only after he had no choice following an epically bad debate performance and leaving insufficient time for his vice president to have any real chance at winning. So, Richard, you're trying to sum up 2024 for us. Certainly a consequential year and one that will its aftershocks we'll still be feeling for years, maybe decades to come.
- [39:12]
Richard Haass
Absolutely. One of the reasons, the one you just focused on, which is the defeat of many incumbents almost regardless of ideology. So we saw the conservatives be ousted after what, 14 years in Britain. And we saw people on the other side of the spectrum, the left side of the section, dramatically weakened in other countries. So the only pattern, Jonathan, seems to be it's been a bad time to have been an incumbent given economic pressures, given immigration and so forth. All that said, my guess is, Jonathan, when history is written about 2024, a big part of the focus is going to be on the Middle East. Let's just be honest here. I don't think any of us had what's happened on our bingo cards, the devastation of Hezbollah, the ouster of the regime in Syria, the weakening of Iran, the weakening of Hamas. So this is really in many ways a reshaped Middle East. And my guess is when, again, when history is written, that's probably the biggest and certainly most surprising set of developments of what has been a consequential year.
- [40:20]
Jonathan Lemere
And developing by the day there in that region. Richard Haass, thank you so much for joining us this morning. Happy New Year to you. Coming up, we'll shift to sports for a moment and talk about how the NFL playoff picture is coming into focus. Pablo Torre will join us with his takeaways from week 17, including the big win that still felt like a loss for New York Giants fans. Morning, Joe. We'll be right back with Pablo.
- [40:50]
Richard Haass
Hey.
- [40:51]
Jonathan Lemere
This is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. But that kind of drama that seems seems to follow me. You never know what's going to happen.
- [41:02]
UNHCR Representative
You can listen to Jeff Lewis live at home or anywhere you are. Download the SiriusXM app for over 425 channels of ad, free music, sports, entertainment and more. Subscribe now and get 3 months free offer details apply.
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Planned Parenthood Representative
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- [42:23]
Jonathan Lemere
Third and three blitz coming, picked up Rush gets intercepted. Accepted. Breaking in front of that is C.J. gardner Johnson and a house call. Pick six to open the day.
- [42:35]
Jonathan Alter
OCONNELL Seeking, serving and searching. And l just got a man.
- [42:40]
Jonathan Lemere
It is Tucker. It is held on to for the touchdown. Mayfield rifles it open. McMillan Touchdown Jack.
- [42:52]
Political Analyst
Tampa Bay second and 14.
- [42:55]
Jonathan Lemere
Heaves it to the end zone. Oh, what a catch. Very good. Getting in and out of his breaks.
- [43:03]
Jon Meacham
New set of downs for the Giants.
- [43:04]
Jonathan Lemere
Catch made by neighbors. He breaks three neighbors down the sideline. He's going to take this all the way. Second down, has time this time. Loads going deep. Has a man nailer. He. He's got it. Touchdown Minnesota. Third and goal from the two. It is J.J. daniels end zone. It is caught for the touchdown. Zach er takes Washington into the playoffs. Those were just some of the biggest touchdowns from across the NFL yesterday. And to help us understand it all, let's bring in the host Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Arc Media. MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre Pablo, good to see you this morning. Let's start with the Vikings packers game, sort of certainly the marquee matchup of the day. These are two teams. We've talked all season long about just what a juggernaut the NFC north is. And the Cinderella story of Sam Darnold continues with the Vikings defeating the packers yesterday and now playing the Lions next week with the chance the winner of that game, top seed in the nfc.
- [44:16]
Richard Haass
Yeah.
- [44:17]
Jonathan Alter
This is the strongest division in the NFL. The strongest division in recent memory. I've told you that all season long, John. And this game against a team that is probably the best third place finisher in division history, the packers, the decisive win for Sam Darnold, who again was this reclamation project from the New York jets who went from a guy who was a stopgap sort of like, okay, I guess we got to go with this guy kind of quote unquote solution to a person who the Vikings now have to decide is he the quarterback of our future? Even though we just drafted JJ McCarthy out of Michigan in the top 10 in the last draft. But in the present tense, the Vikings are just incredible. Their only two losses this season are to the Lions. The Lions, as you aforementioned, playing hosting the Vikings next Sunday to decide the division. And that guy with the purple cap on his head is Kevin O'Connell, the coach of the Vikings, also the prohibitive favorite for coach of the year. An incredible, incredible job. He's done with that defense, but especially Sam Darnold in that offense.
- [45:22]
Jonathan Lemere
Yeah. So just really incredible. And there's Vikings are going to have a decision to make after the season as to whether Sam Darnold the future when they turn it over to their first round pick, JJ McCarthy or maybe they look to chop the young, the young qb. We saw Jaden Daniels there hitting a touchdown. Commanders come back, they win playoff bound. It is, you know, it is one of the better stories this year in the NFL the way this rookie, the number two overall pick has just revitalized not just the team, but like that entire franchise and region which has been star for winner for so long.
- [45:56]
Jonathan Alter
Right, right. The recent history of the Commanders is as bleak as any team in professional sports. And Jaden Daniels in this matchup specifically, we have just not seen a matchup of rookie quarterbacks like this. So to give you a bit of the tail of the tape here, Jaden Daniels, there he is throwing the winning pass to Zachary. It's his tight end in overtime to beat the Falcons. The Falcons who were starting Michael Penix Jr. A rookie quarterback a first round pick, a top 10 pick himself in a rare matchup. Typically when you get two rookie quarterbacks starting for two different teams, it is bad news for both teams. They are struggling. They got nothing else to play for. Let's throw them out there. That is not the case here. The Falcons are still on life support because Michael Penix in fact is giving them the spark of life. He did try to lead a game winning drive at the end. Some clock mismanagement, I would argue on the part of Falcons coach Raheem Morris helped undo that as well as the play of Jayden Daniels, who again is just wise beyond his years. It's hard not to sound like a cliche spouting football coach John But Jayden Daniels also ran for 100 some odd yards, you know, to win this game on the ground. So it's just a remarkable thing for a team and the commanders that yes, is now officially we can say it, a playoff team, which is an incredible, incredible turnaround.
- [47:18]
Jonathan Lemere
So we're talking about triumphs. Pablo now let's talk about tragedies on the football field and the worst in the league. In beginning with, let's talk about the New York Giants who yes, they won yesterday and that very fact is what has angered so much of their fan base. Because they won. They beat the Colts yesterday. Colts team that was playing for the still had a shot at the postseason. Yes, but the Giants win and by doing so move out of the number one overall draft pick position. They're no longer picking number one. They've slid back the New England Patriots who were embarrassed on Saturday by the Chargers. They have a quarterback and nothing else. Suddenly they're in the pole position. And now we look to week 18 where frankly a lot of these teams are going to try their best to lose without looking overtly like they're doing so. But talk to us about this bizarre dynamic and seen yesterday at the Meadowlands.
- [48:11]
Jonathan Alter
It is so difficult to be the worst run team in the New York area right now. The jets, of course we talk about them, laugh at them every single week and we should. But the Giants, all they had to do was lose. They had the pole position, as you said, they had no reason to to win. For those who are not familiar with pro sports and the NFL draft in particular, it is a funny bit of socialism where the worst get the best. The worst ranked team gets the number one overall pick. That would have been the Giants. Instead you wake up as a Giants fan and here is the headline. By the way, I go with the Daily News on this one it's just yay exclamation point, which is just a sarcasm, which I appreciated, understated sarcasm. Because you don't get anything for what is truly a moral defeat. A literal victory, but a moral defeat. It's rare that you get that in sports, but here you have a team against its own best interests losing the ability by all probability to take Shadour Sanders out of Colorado, the quarterback, or Cam Ward out of Miami, another star quarterback, because they wanted to do stuff like this. And it's amazing, John, that your New England Patriots, they happen to have now the inside track on a number one pick in a season in which the Giants just gave it to them for no rational reason.
- [49:34]
Jonathan Lemere
And now the Patriots, they do play a bill, see next week that has nothing to play for. So the stakes in that game will be deeply low.
- [49:40]
Jonathan Alter
But one thing about next next week. Can I jump ahead to this briefly, John, because I think you're going to go there. The Giants play the Eagles, okay? And the Eagles just clinched that is true. They have no ostensible reason to win. And maybe it doesn't even matter at this point. But we know who is playing running back for those Eagles and it's Saquon Barkley, the guy who just cracked two. There it is. Thank you. Sorry for jumping ahead of you 2,000 yards. Okay? He's 101 yards away from breaking Eric Dickerson's all time rushing record. If you've not been following the soap opera that John and I have been laughing about, also here, it's the fact that the Giants had Saquon Barkley and they went on Hard Knocks on television. John, you remember this. They were on television actively letting Saquon go. They let him go. And now in the ultimate symmetry of all of this, the Giants may watch Saquon Barkley rush for the all time record against a Giants team next week that cannot possibly have anything to celebrate on any level even if they win that game. It's just insane to me how the Giants took pole position and also just the psychological torture chamber that is the Tri State area and its football teams.
- [51:00]
Jonathan Lemere
Yeah, as bad as things are for the Giants, at least they don't have Aaron Rodgers, MSNBC contributor, Pablo Tory. Pablo, thank you so much. We will speak to you again soon.
- [51:09]
Planned Parenthood Representative
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