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Morning Joe
Morning Joe 1/23/25
00:53:48
Trump administration directs DOJ to step up immigration enforcement
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- [00:00]
Mika Brzezinski
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- [00:22]
Joe Scarborough
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- [00:25]
Mika Brzezinski
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- [01:13]
David Drucker
It was a terrible time and a terrible chapter in America's history. The President's made his decision. I don't second guess those. And yes, you know, it's kind of my ethos, my worldview. We believe in redemption, we believe in second chances. If you could, you would argue that those people didn't pay a heavy penalty having been incarcerated and all of that, that's up to you. But the President's made a decision. We move forward. There are better days ahead of us. That's what we're excited about. We're not looking backwards or looking forwards. It was shocking. I mean, it was. It was shocking what President Biden did on the way out, pardoning his family for more than a decade of whatever activity, any nonviolent offenses. It was breathtaking to us. I don't think that's anything like that's ever been anticipated. And by the way, go look at the tape. You know, four years ago when it was just implied that President Trump might do something similar, they were apoplectic. Joe Biden himself, Adam Schiff, Chuck Schumer, roll the tape. They all said that would be crazy and unconscionable, and now they're cheering it along. To us, it is disgusting to us, it probably proves the point, the suspicion that they call it the Biden crime family. If they weren't the crime family, why do they need pardons? Right. Look, there's a lot of attention that's going to be paid to this, and I think that is appropriate, and we will be looking at it as well.
- [02:27]
Jonathan Lemire
All right, just to recap what we saw there for Speaker Johnson, it's time to move on from President Trump's pardons. January 6th rioters. But President Biden's pardons deserve more investigation. We're going to bring you the president's new comments defending his clemency for the mob that attacked the Capitol, including those who assaulted police officers. We'll also go through the president's threats to sanction Russia over the war in Ukraine. Plus, we'll dig into Elon Musk undercutting the president's major investment in AI and his feud with the project's partners. And in sports, Philadelphia is gearing up for Sunday's big NFL playoff game, but the mayor needs a little work on the team's chant. Let me hear you all say E.
- [03:18]
Mika Brzezinski
L, G, L, E, S. Eagles, yay.
- [03:23]
Jonathan Lemire
I like the energy. It's E, A, G, L, E, S. But that's okay. They're excited. It's fun. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe.
- [03:34]
Sam Stein
That's absolutely. I mean, give her cue cards if she needs them.
- [03:39]
Jonathan Lemire
I would totally do that.
- [03:40]
Sam Stein
Get excited.
- [03:41]
Jonathan Lemire
Sometimes my mouth is freezing out in the cold. People are looking at me. All right, with us we have the co host of the fourth Hour, Jonathan Lemire. He's a contributing writer at the Atlantic covering the White House and national politics. Member of the New York Times editorial board, Mara Gay, managing editor at the Bulwark. Sam stein's with us. U.S. national Editor at the Financial Times, Ed Luce is here and senior writer for the Dispatch, DAV Drucker. So, Joe, a lot going on, but we kind of need to remain focused here. Signal versus noise.
- [04:17]
Sam Stein
Signal versus noise. And you know, we just heard Christina Greer last hour telling Ali we, we have to be careful to continue to separate what she calls performative acts versus what is actually meaningful change in yesterday. I think that's a, that's a great way to frame this because there are a flurry of things that are out there, including stories the New York Times about how Donald Trump, you know, has things in the inauguration that look like Thrones, etc. Etc. Again, signal versus noise. Yesterday, I thought it was so, so helpful. The Pod Save America guys that came on who were just absolutely great. I love having them, loved having them on yesterday. But they said at one point he said, what we have to do is we have to stop telling people about how what Donald Trump says shocks people and instead talk about how what he does affects people, how it affects their lives. So, yes, signal versus noise, we're going to get to all of that, but I do feel like we need to go to our edit her, the member of the New York Times editorial board and ask her the question, when exactly, when exactly did the Democratic Party leave Mayor Eric Adams? What investigation law made him suddenly decide that he was no longer a Democrat? This is. This wasn't exactly a Ronald Reagan moment, was it, Maura?
- [06:00]
Joe Scarborough
Oh, yeah. It's interesting because maybe it was the moment when the Democratic Party refused to look away at allegations of corruption into his administration in the same way that the Republican Party just allowed Donald Trump to do whatever he pleased. I guess that's the standard that Eric Adams is potentially looking for from the Democratic Party. He has made no secret of his attempt to seek a pardon from the President of the United States. Now, it has led to a lot of embarrassment, not only for the mayor personally, but among a lot of constituents in this city. It's a Democratic town. You know, at the same time, he has a base, some of whom black men, for example, in Southeast Queens, just one slice of his base. You know who I've talked to some of them, and they say, hey, there's a double standard. So we kind of see how the mayor might feel persecuted, and maybe we agree. But I think that is a narrow interpretation. And I do believe that depending on how everyday New Yorkers experience the next few months of the Trump administration, and depending on how Adams competition in the primary perform, he may be up for a serious challenge.
- [07:27]
Sam Stein
Yeah. And I think we need to go to our Daily News alum, who spent much of his early career harassing New York City mayors, even chasing Bill de Blasio to his daily gym trips in Brooklyn. Jonathan Lemire.
- [07:43]
Jonathan Lemire
He was super annoying.
- [07:44]
Sam Stein
You both are Daily News alums, right? You're both Daily News alums.
- [07:48]
Mara Gay
Yeah.
- [07:49]
Sam Stein
So, yeah, John, really quickly, I just, I'm sorry, it's just too rich. I. I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party left me. I mean, come on, really? Has there ever been like a more, more sort of air of corruption around not only the mayor, but everybody? Everybody. It seems it works for him.
- [08:13]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah.
- [08:14]
Mara Gay
There was certainly that wave of indictments and investigations, FBI raids that surrounded Adams inner circle a few months ago. I'll just note, many New Yorkers still hold those gym trips against Bill de Blasio. But this has been such blatant effort here from Adams to court favor from Trump. He got a middle of the night invitation to the inauguration, skipping MLK Day events in New York City so he could drive down to Washington at one in the morning and attend that. He has been to Palm to Mar a Lago. And yes, there are real, of course, real reasons for the mayor of the nation's largest city to talk to the then president elect. But the speculation, it was about a pardon. He did an interview with Tucker Carlson the other night. He's doing everything he can to move in on Trump. He's withheld criticism of a lot of Trump's more controversial policies. But at least at this point, his efforts for pardon may not be working because just Yesterday the interim U.S. attorney appointed by Trump until the normal U.S. attorney for the Southern District could be appointed basically dismissed. Adams public claims, Mika, that the investigation into him was somehow ordered by the Biden Department of Justice cuz it was revenge because Adams criticized Biden's migrant policy. And this attorney again appointed into the interim basis by Donald Trump suggest. No, that's not it. There's a there there. And the prosecution is going to continue.
- [09:33]
Jonathan Lemire
Oh my. Okay, well.
- [09:35]
Sam Stein
And of course all this may lead to ultimately, Mika, the return of one Andrew Cuomo. So there you go. It's going to be an interesting mayor's race.
- [09:46]
Jonathan Lemire
All right, our top story this morning. The Republican led House has passed the Lake and Riley Act, a strict immigration detention bill named for a 22 year old Georgia nursing. 22 year old Georgia nursing student murdered last year by an undocumented immigrant. The legislation targets undocumented individuals who commit crimes and is expected to become the first bill signed into law by President Trump in his second term. The House passed the bill 263 to 156, with 46 Democrats joining every Republican in support. The Senate passed the bill on Monday by a vote of 64 to 35, which included included 12 Democrats, among them Senators Gary Peters, Jon Ossoff, Jean Shaheen and Mark Warner, all of whom are up for reelection next year. The act requires ICE to take custody of and detain undocumented immigrants who are charged, arrested or convicted of committing acts of burglary, theft, larceny or shoplifting. The Venezuelan citizen who was found guilty of kidnapping, assaulting and murdering Riley while she was out for a jog near the University of Georgia was in the US Illegally. He had been cited for shoplifting by a Georgia police department. But ICE did not issue a detainer for him, and he was not taken into custody. So this is one of the first pieces of legislation passed. Joe.
- [11:25]
Sam Stein
Right. And again, this is where we're talking about signal versus noise, performative acts versus actually actions that, that, that, that are going to be impactful. This is, this is obviously, David Drucker, something that the overwhelming majority of Americans support. I think you go all the way up into the 80s, there's some people that, that suggest it goes too far. But even that argument, you're getting into the old broken windows argument, like, for instance, Rudy Giuliani and police officers going after, in some cases, shoplifting, that when they go after the smaller crimes, that leads to larger crimes. And, you know, Right now in 2025, the overwhelming majority of Americans support this act, and it's one of the reasons why when it passed, it passed with strong bipartisan support.
- [12:18]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, look, if you want to, you know, try and understand one of the reasons why Donald Trump was sent back to the White House after, you know, everything that he said and did during his first term and in the aftermath of his first term, you don't have to look any far than how President Biden and the views of so many voters mismanaged border security. And this is just not complicated. Joe.
- [12:39]
David Drucker
Right.
- [12:39]
Mika Brzezinski
I mean, some things take political explainers and, you know, we've got to say, you know, point A to point B to point C, and that, you know, explains why things happen. People of all political backgrounds, even if they draw different conclusions on exact policy prescriptions, are probably going to tell you that if you're in this country illegally and you commit crimes that shouldn't happen, and the government ought to do something about it, particularly when it becomes an issue of public safety concern for so many voters. And so you saw the political marketplace at work here with Democrats in the Senate, where this needed 60 votes, participating with Republicans to advance this legislation. It was, of course, going to clear the Republican House. And the number of Democrats in the House that voted for this wasn't inconsequential. But it's the Senate that really tells you what's happening, where you have Democrats up for reelection in 2026 that help make sure this is law. Well, the one thing that I'd add, guys, is if the president, the new president, wants to have a real impact on immigration policy, it's going to happen through legislation like this versus executive orders, which are ephemeral and reversed when the next president takes office, particularly if that president's a Democrat and they take issue with some of the things that the president current president is doing on immigration.
- [13:56]
Sam Stein
All right. And, David, we actually saw that with Joe Biden. You know, think about all the executive orders that Joe Biden signed to reverse what Donald Trump put into effect. And Donald Trump spent his first day in office reversing so many of those. I mean, this is so key that, that, again, there's a lot of performative actions over the past several days. There have been some things that we can talk about J6 in a second. There have been some, also some, some things that are going to have a significant impact on this country. But if you're going to change immigration in particular, unilateral acts are only going to change things so much. It's legislation like this that actually is going to bend history.
- [14:44]
Mika Brzezinski
Correct. And President Trump actually understands what he's doing this time around. You may disagree with him, but when he came into the presidency the first time, he barely understood how Congress works. And I mean that at a very basic level, just understanding the process, let alone do you get what you want or not. This time, he understands the process. He understands, as presidents before him did, how to exert executive authority. That may be questionable, but presidents are never shy in using every piece of authority that they may or may not have, which stands in so different to Congress, which is happy to give power away to the executive and judicial branches. Also, I think President Trump has more latitude this time, whatever people thought about the border, and there was a huge concern about the border in 2017 as he entered office in that first term. Given how things went for most of the Biden administration, President Trump has more political latitude, I believe, in the country, to be aggressive in how he brings the border and immigration, both legal and illegal, under control from his perspective. And so I don't think that you're going to see necessarily the same kind of pushback, at least initially, that we saw at times during that first term.
- [16:00]
Sam Stein
You know, at least you've, you've written about, and we discussed at length last time you were here, Joe Biden's tragic legacy. Of course, there are many points to that. There also, of course, Mika will be glad to tell you, as will I. There are also some really great achievements during his, his first term. But she'll, she'll probably tell us this after I finish this question with you. But one of the sad legacies is the fact that there were some blind spots in the administration, blind spots that you and I, over dinner, at times even two years ago, three years ago, we're talking about blind spots not only in the Biden administration, But also among Democrats. One was what was going on on campus even before the protests last year. And another was again the flood of illegal immigrants over the southern border. And just something that neither Joe Biden nor the Democratic Party as a whole got their arms around. And it did. Illegal immigration hasn't been an issue that has changed presidential races in the past, but boy, it sure did this time, didn't it?
- [17:09]
Ed Luce
Yeah, it sure did. I mean, I think back to the 2019, 2020 Democratic primaries and that sort of competitive amongst the candidates for the Democratic nomination, competing to see who could scream open border more loudly than others. I think Beto O'Rourke, people like that. And Biden, you know, Biden was on that stage. He was actually the moderate on that stage and wasn't calling for open borders, but it captured the spirit of a party that I think had lost all touch with American public opinion, with the median voter on that issue. And yes, during the early Biden years, partly because the pandemic ended, there was a surge of immigration. There were also changes to regulations that made it easier for them to come through with or without a pandemic, but that ended by the end of the Biden term. We've had illegal immigration drop very, very sharply. It's a really eccentric moment, precipitously. Yeah. For President Trump to be declaring a national emergency. I think he's devaluing the word emergency. He's talking about an energy emergency, a crime emergency, a border emergency. On all these issues, Biden's left him a pretty situation. So, you know, call me a pedantic, but I think the word emergency is being misused.
- [18:34]
Sam Stein
Well, you're not alone. The conservative Wall Street Journal editorial page has pretty much said the same thing. Don't devalue the word emergency. When right now, at this moment, there's not an emergency. Just like when Donald Trump got into office in 2017, illegal border crossings on the southern border were actually at 50 year lows. @ the same time he was talking about, and his supporters were talking about building the wall. Building the wall. We've got to stop the invasion. They were at 50 year lows. Not a 50 year lows now, but they are at 5 year lows. So to declare a national emergency at this time actually is. Is the Wall Street Journal editorial page says seems to be devaluing the word emergency. That said, at the same time, this is an issue that matters a great deal to Americans. You look at the Reuters poll, we showed the overwhelming majority of Americans want people that came here illegally who have committed crimes in America to be deported. That is where the overwhelming majority of Americans are right now. And that's why this legislation passed in such a bipartisan manner.
- [19:44]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah. Our other top story this morning, President Trump continues to defend his pardons for all of the January 6th rioters. The President last night downplayed the violence against police officers that day in the first Oval Office interview of his new term. Take a listen.
- [20:03]
Mika Brzezinski
Number of reasons. Number one, they were in there for three and a half years, a long time, and in many, solitary confinement, treated like nobody's ever been treated, treated so badly. They were treated like the worst criminals in history. And you know what they were there for? They were protesting the vote because they knew the election was rigged and they were protesting the vote. And that you should be allowed to protest the vote. You should be allowed to, you know, when the day comes, you shouldn't be.
- [20:31]
David Drucker
Able to invade the Capitol.
- [20:32]
Mika Brzezinski
No. Ready. Most of the people were absolutely innocent, okay? But forgetting all about that, these people have served horribly a long time. It would be very, very cumbersome to go and look, you know how many people we're talking about? 1500 people. Almost all of them are, should not have been. This should not have happened. And the other thing is this. Some of those people with the police, too, but they were very minor incidents, okay? You know, they get built up by that couple of fake guys that are on CNN all the time. Nobody watches. They were very minor incidents, and it was time. You had 1500 people that suffered. That's a lot of people. Do you know, they were looking for new people Two weeks ago, they were looking, wait a minute. They were looking to charge new people. They have a woman who's 76 years old that they said was made a statement that was a little bit out of line years after the fact. This was a political hoax. And you know what? Those people, and I'm not saying in every single case, but there was a lot of patriotism with those people.
- [21:52]
Mara Gay
So, Sam Sim, you just heard it in the friendly confines of Sean Hannity Oval Office interview. Donald Trump continues to downplay what happened there, suggesting that officers were exaggerating their injuries. We had Michael Fanone on our area yesterday, talk about how he suffered a heart attack, went into cardiac arrest, was beaten within an inch of his life. We talked about how members, some of the rioters, would use flag poles, baseball bats, whatever it might be, the cops own weapons, their batons to attack them. And yet this, for Donald Trump, seems to be closing the book after four years of, in his mind, a successful effort to downplay what we're seeing right there in our screens. I mean, obviously it's ridiculous and insulting to the officers who went through that traumatic ordeal. Several officers took their lives. I don't consider that minor in the slightest. I don't think anyone would objectively consider that minor. Should note that it was interesting to see Hannity kind of sheepishly say, you shouldn't be able to invade the Capitol.
- [22:51]
Mika Brzezinski
Right.
- [22:52]
Mara Gay
Of course you shouldn't be able to invade the Capitol. It goes without saying. But this is Trump at his peak.
- [22:58]
Mika Brzezinski
Right?
- [22:58]
Mara Gay
He wants to erase this part of history. And I'm not, honestly, nothing about it surprises me. I think the more interesting, more surprising element of this was Mike Johnson, which the video will be played, which is Mike Johnson sort of saying, well, let's just move on. That's in the past. We don't need to relitigate this. Let's go forward. And then, hours later, launching an investigative committee in Congress to investigate the preceding days of January 6th and what happened after January 6th, basically investing the investigators. And so they are trying to recast this entire history. It begins with Trump's blanket pardons, which in that interview, he said it would have been too cumbersome to go through individual cases. So just to all 1500. And then it continues into the use of congressional resources, congressional authorities, to try to cast doubt on the prosecution, the legitimate prosecution of the people who rioted, who tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power. It is a deliberate and comprehensive attempt to try to rewrite one of the darker chapters of our political history.
- [24:03]
Sam Stein
Well, you know, we've seen before when Congress and others have tried to investigate the investigators regarding Trump administration. It never ends well for those investigating the investigators. And in this case, you better believe that if you open this door back up and you really want to go back to January 6th and you were a supporter of Donald Trump, you're going to not only see this, you're going to see cops, as the Wall Street Journal called them, cop beaters. You're going to see the people that, that walked free after beating the hell out of cops, after doing things that led to the death of several cops. Talk to their families. They'll tell you that. You'll hear more people like Michael Fanone, who went to work that day to do their job to protect the United States Capitol, who had the hell beaten out of them. They were kicked, they were tased. And by these people that were bragging, they were bragging about beating the hell out of law enforcement officers. So the elevation of cop beaters. Yeah. By Mike Johnson saying, oh, listen, let's not focus on the cop beaters, let's focus on the Biden pardons. You know, good luck with that. It's just not going to end well. It's really not. It's not going to end well for Republicans. It's not going to end well for the White House. David Drucker, let's, let's talk, though, about the impact and the blowback on this. I've already talked about how the Wall Street Journal editorial page was, was sufficiently shocked at clemency for cop beaters. And, and there were about half a dozen Republicans that came out yesterday in the Senate and actually condemned this, said it was a bad thing to do, they wouldn't do it. That said, from Republicans I spoke to, and I'm really curious what you heard, whether they said it in front of microphones or not. There was a deep, abiding unease all across the capital yesterday among Republicans, seeing that some of the worst of the worst actually got to walk free after beating the hell out of law enforcement officers.
- [26:24]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, look, I mean, how often is there a deep, abiding unease about something Donald Trump says or does? And it really doesn't matter. He campaigned on this. He said he was going to do this. This is not shocking. And all that matters politically is what do voters think? And voters voted for him anyway. So I'm not saying it doesn't matter, and I am not saying people shouldn't be upset. But this, this is not going to surprise anybody. And it's the sort of thing that could end up blowing back on Trump if the things he was really elected to do, which is get the border under control and improve the economy by bringing down inflation, bringing down costs. I mean, these are things that voters really want from him, not all of this other stuff. If he gets that wrong, then it becomes death by a thousand cuts. And it's like, oh, you did this and you did that. But all of these things were very well known. So this is not to excuse it, but just to point out, politically, this is not going to be a shock to the system or a shock to the public, nor is it a shock to Republicans. They knew he would do this, and they have been okay with this because their voters have been okay with this. And look, we could end up being wrong. There could be some sort of immediate, you know, pushback broadly throughout the country. But everybody knows who Donald Trump is at this point. They've listened to him for almost a decade. And I'd be surprised if Initially, there was a big uproar.
- [27:53]
Sam Stein
Well, Mika, this is what you've been saying is he campaigned on this. He promised to do this. I mean, the only caveat to that, of course, is talking about doing it by case, by case basis. J.D. vance saying, no, we're not going to let the violent criminals out, the ones that beat up the cops. And we heard that from a lot of Republicans. But that is a caveat to a much bigger campaign thing where he glorified throughout the campaign the January 6th rioters. Voters knew he was glorifying them, calling them patriots, and they voted for him and elected him. So David makes a very good point.
- [28:34]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah. And not only did he campaign on this, this is his right. As hard as it is to say, this is his right as president. And yesterday I was reading a lot about this and watching the coverage, and I was seeing reporters getting into huge fights with Republican congressmen. And they just kept going around in circles because, of course, Donald Trump kept his word and Joe Biden did not. That's also true. And so that's the trap. You know, reporters are going to get in. They're going to go round in circles. That's only going to feed into the negative narrative about the media. It's going to do nothing to prove a point about this. Nothing. It actually may undermine it. And Mara Gay, I feel like editorial writers need to step up, Democrats need to step up. Voices like Michael Fanon's need to be heard. I was listening to him all day, and we had him on the show yesterday. Gripping and absolutely to the point of the problem here. And so there's a role here for those who need to step up. And by the way, I would really hope that some Republicans would step up. But again, there are some potholes here that I think the media falls into, and we can't let that happen because there are some realities about this that are undeniable. It is his right, and he promised. And then there's the counter narrative, which is also undeniable. Joe Biden promised that he would not pardon his son or his family, and he did. And he also pardoned others who have done things. And it's extremely muddled. And it's not a fight that I think, personally, reporters and hosts want to get in to have moments. I really don't. I think we're getting in the way of things. So I'm looking at this from a coverage perspective. To someone who works at the New.
- [30:30]
Joe Scarborough
York Times, I think that's exactly the right question. You know, during Trump's first term, there was a lot of both on the part of the Democratic Party and even from voters in the media, there was kind of a grasping at normalcy.
- [30:48]
Jonathan Lemire
Yes.
- [30:48]
Joe Scarborough
So an attempt to excuse away, to minimize some of what Donald Trump was not only doing in office, but said that he was about. It was clear that he was not committed to democracy. But there was a lot of kind of hand holding of Donald Trump. Well, surely you want to actually support democracy. Surely you couldn't mean the things that you're saying. And I think this is a moment where the opposition and that is not just the Democratic Party, but that's any American who's committed to democracy has to look at this and say this is about raw power. And this is a man who promised some really shocking things that are destructive to our democracy and he is delivering on them. There is no excusing it away. And I think the other moment, you know, the pardons are one moment. The Nazi salute from Elon Musk was another. So this is a challenge to not excuse away, not minimize, to call a.
- [31:49]
Jonathan Lemire
Spade a spade, but cover it. And those who should call a spade a spade, especially Republicans and Democrats in Washington, editorial writers, victims, you know, ultimately Americans will have to see what is happening here as he delivers on his promises and they will decide whether or not this is what they really wanted. I do, I do talk to a lot of people voted for Trump who don't think these things would have happened. So I wonder where that leads. Senior writer David Drucker, thank you very much for reading, for joining us this morning. We'll be reading your new reporting for the Dispatch online now. And still ahead on MORNING joe, a new fast moving wildfire breaks out in Los Angeles county, burning more than 10,000 acres in just a matter of hours. We'll have the latest from that already hard hit area, plus a live report from Davos as President Trump prepares to address global business leaders today. Also ahead, we'll get to President Trump's new threat to hit Russia with tariffs if Vladimir Putin doesn't end the war in Ukraine. We're back in 90 seconds.
- [33:02]
Mika Brzezinski
This podcast is supported by Planned Parenthood, Federation of America. Planned Parenthood Federation of America exists so all people can get access to the sexual and reproductive care and education they need. Planned Parenthood organizations advocate for health equity and policies that allow people the freedom to control their own bodies, lives and futures. More than 2 million patients a year rely on Planned Parenthood health center services like STI testing and treatment, birth control, gender affirming care, abortion, cancer screenings and more reproductive health care and rights are under attack from public officials who are out of step with the will of the vast majority of Americans. The constitutional right to abortion has been stolen and politicians in 47 states have introduced bills that would block people from getting the sexual and reproductive care they need. Planned Parenthood knows that equitable access to healthcare, including safe, legal abortion, is a human right. Right now, Planned Parenthood needs your help to protect access to healthcare. Donate today by visiting plannedparenthood.org protect every.
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- [34:43]
Jonathan Lemire
All right past the hour. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. A new wildfire exploded north of Los Angeles yesterday, forcing tens of thousands of people to evacuate. The flames shut down schools and businesses and temporarily closed parts of Interstate 5. It comes more than two weeks after the first wave of deadly infernos tore through the region. We'll stay on that overnight. We learned that seven police officers in San Antonio, Texas were shot while responding to a suicide in progress call. According to authorities. None of the officers injuries are believed to be life threatening. The shooting happened just before 8:30pm local time. Police say the original call to authorities came from a family member. The suspect, who is described to be in his 40s, barricaded himself inside an apartment for several hours when SWAT teams arrived on the scene. In the end he was found dead inside the complex. Police are still unsure if the suspect's death was self inflicted or whether he was shot by officers and a 17 year old opened fire in inside a school cafeteria in Nashville, Tennessee. It happened around 11am yesterday morning at Enioch High School. We've learned the shooter confronted his classmates in the cafeteria and then proceeded to fire multiple shots. A 16 year old student was killed and another was grazed by a bullet and treated at a nearby hospital. The gunman then fatally shot himself with a handgun. At this moment a motive remains unclear, but police say they are reviewing very concerning online writings and social media posts linked the gunman. The shooting comes nearly two years after another deadly shooting in the city that took the lives of six people. As of now, the high school will be closed for the rest of the week. Joe?
- [36:46]
Sam Stein
Yeah, just a shock to the people of Nashville again, coming two years after another deadly shooting at a school. Our prayers are certainly with those families affected and the schools affected. And for the people of Nashville, the madness has to stop. President Trump's threatening new tariffs and sanctions against Russia if a deal to stop fighting in Ukraine isn't reached soon. In a lengthy media post yesterday, Trump explained he's not going to. He's not looking to hurt Russia and that he loves the Russian people, but that Vladimir Putin must settle now because it's only going to get worse. Trump said if a deal isn't reached soon, he won't have any other choice but to put high levels of tariffs and sanctions imported on Russian products. The Wall Street Journal cites Census Bureau data that shows the rate at which imported Russian goods enter the US has dropped drastically since Putin launched his war. Let's bring it right now. Wall Street Journal reporter Alan Collison. He's a former Moscow correspondent for the Journal, reporting from Russia for over 20 years. Alan, thank you so much for being with us. I guess, I guess this is, you know, the economic impact is not going to be quite so great on any tariffs because trade has dwindled so rapidly since the invasion. But what does, what does this statement by President Trump say about how far he's willing to push Vladimir Putin on getting this war, getting the sides to the negotiating table?
- [38:26]
Alan Collison
I think the statement's actually quite significant. He meant more than tariffs, clearly. The, yeah, the trade with Russia has dwindled a lot over the years. It never was that significant to begin with because we're at distance, of course. But, you know, the United States has waged a pretty breathtaking sanction regime against him. And this statement by Trump is the strongest, strongest indication yet that he's going to continue it and maybe even ramp it up. I think it probably was quite a surprise to the Kremlin that he would say this. This was even before Trump and Putin have had an official phone call.
- [39:13]
Sam Stein
Now, you know, you've, you've obviously covered Russia a great deal of your adult life and understand the relationship between Vladimir Putin and the United States. I always thought there was a fascinating split screen in the first Trump administration where Donald Trump would go to Helsinki, he would say things that would horrify Americans. And at the same time, Congress, with Donald Trump's support, would pass some of the toughest sanctions. A Republican Congress would pass some of the toughest sanctions against Vladimir Putin. I'm wondering if that's a continuation of that. I'm also wondering economically, where is Putin right now? Where is Russia right now as this war grinds on?
- [39:54]
Alan Collison
Yeah, I think the split screen is likely to continue. I think that Trump himself is probably relishing the fact that people expect him to be conciliatory towards Putin, but he's not in action here. And this is a signal of it. I think that the economic sanctions are getting more and more important to Putin. The Biden administration unleash some sanctions that were really unprecedented against a country so large. I don't think it's ever been done in really in the history of sanctions making. And the Russian economy is feeling some strains on it. The, you know, inflation is ramping up and they're having to raise interest rates. The, you know, economy is going to cough. I think that there's also a pretty bad labor shortage. The big question right now is whether sanctions alone are really going to be enough to stop the war. You know, the Russians think that they're winning the war and they don't really see a whole lot of reason to negotiate. So I was going to ask.
- [41:10]
Sam Stein
Alan, go ahead. I'm so sorry. I. Yeah, I'm so sorry. I was going to ask you about the state of the war. From, from all that, you know, all you hear from all of your reporting in the United States, it seems that that one week we will. We'll get news stories and headlines that say Russia is gaining ground, pushing westward, Kiev's even at risk. And the next week we'll hear about Ukrainian attacks going deep into Russia. And it's really hard to tell what the stage of this war is at and who has the momentum. Right now, you take everything you read in the United States and I'm sure across the west, and it seems that it is an ugly war of attrition, sort of 2025 version of World War I. What, what, what, what are your sources telling you inside of Russia and Ukraine about the state of this war?
- [42:17]
Alan Collison
Well, I think that the Russians do have the momentum right now. It's dearly bought. They have very high casualty rate and it is taking a toll on their economy. But the Russian calculation is that the pain, of course, is felt on both sides. And I think the hope was that the Ukrainians were going sometime this year and that they might even crack, you know, before half the year is over. But if they can be persuaded that the war will continue, not only this year, but the Ukrainians can continue to stand Next year, then I think it might, might be a force, you know, a recalculation in how they're doing things. I think that's why this discussion of economic sanctions and Trump's desire to stand up, stand up and force a change is significant.
- [43:20]
Sam Stein
Yeah.
- [43:21]
Jonathan Lemire
All right.
- [43:21]
Sam Stein
Wall Street Journal reporter Alan Collison, thank you so much. We hope you come back soon.
- [43:27]
Alan Collison
Thank you.
- [43:29]
Sam Stein
All right, Ed Loose, I'm curious, your take, you obviously have been following this before, the Financial Times, from the Europeans perspective. Donald Trump's statement obviously not only causing surprise, I'm sure, in Moscow, but also across some of the capitals of Europe that he is pushing. And the belief in the campaign was always going to be that the pressure was going to all be on Zelensky. That's certainly not the signal he sent last night.
- [43:59]
Ed Luce
Yeah, I mean, this, this was a very pleasant surprise. I'm not used to pleasant surprises. None of us are at the moment. It was a positive show, shock. I think what Trump said yesterday, and I think my guesswork as to why he did this is that I think, as Alan just laid out, Putin is not interested in talks at the moment. He believes he's gaining and has more to gain on the battlefield. And remember, the war is now almost three years old. It'll be three years next month. He's actually got less territory today than he had before he invaded a few Ukraine less. So we lost 200,000 men and another sort of several hundred thousand casualties who weren't killed. This is an extraordinary high cost for no gain. So clearly Putin doesn't want to talk. Trump has campaigned on saying, I'll fix it in 24 hours. Keith Kellogg, his general, former general, who's there to be the envoy on this? This is saying 100 days. But even 100 days sounds short if one of the parties, the aggressor, isn't interested in talking. So I think this sort of, this riles up Trump's pride that he is the dealmaker. Putin isn't even responding, and so he's got to apply some pressure, some arm twisting to get Putin to think again. And I'm hoping for some more pleasant surprises. I'm not forecasting them, but I like pleasant surprises. It's such an odd feeling.
- [45:36]
Mara Gay
And, Mika, I've been talking to some Trump officials in recent days. The unpredictability here is the point. He's trying to keep Putin and the Russia and those in the conflict off guard. He does want this war to end sooner than later, in part because of the possible economic toll that could Take. The longer it stretches, we'll see if he follows through. That's the great unknown. But at least right now, it feels like some saber rattling might be helpful.
- [45:58]
Jonathan Lemire
Interesting. Ukrainian President Zelensky was at the World Economic Forum in Davos earlier this week. And today President Trump is expected to address the global business leader at the gathering. He will do so virtually. With us now from the World Economic Forum in Davos, chief content officer and editor in chief at Forbes, Randall Lane. So, Randall, tell us, tell us what you're hearing there. Reaction, world reaction to the Trump presidency overall, his first moves in office and looking ahead to his address.
- [46:33]
I
Yeah, well, you know, he's obviously, it's quite a week to be here, and you could actually see the world kind of react in real time to this flurry of actions he's been taking. But I got to say, Mika, a lot of this seems to be baked in. It's not. I was hearing it eight years ago when he was inaugurated, and that was kind of shock. This year, it seems like everyone is ready. You know, a lot of this, you know, we're here at the, this is the capital of multilateralism, and everyone seems to accept that multilateralism for at least the next four years isn't happening. And you see it, you know, we talk about Zelensky, even Ukraine has a space here where they're doing meetings and lobbying and whatnot. And the theme is every country first. They're mimicking the language of America first and actually pivoting from the idea. And I could spend time with Zelensky on Tuesday, took a small group of heirs in chief and kind of had a little meeting and you could see him pivot, where instead of him talking about the moral need to support Ukraine, which you saw last year, he came and he had a standing ovation. This year he spoke, there was no standing ovation. He talked about the self interest of America and Europe to helping Ukraine. Big pivot, you see. And you see that up and down here in Davos, everybody accepting that, that the world has changed and they're reacting to it.
- [47:46]
Mara Gay
Hey, Randall, Sam Stein here. I'm kind of curious beyond the countries, Davos, obviously, huge gathering of some of the wealthiest people on the planet. What we've seen here in the United States, obviously, is that our tech titans and some of our leading financiers have all made the calculated decision that they are going to cozy up to Trump, flatter him, work with him, pledge billions of dollars to projects, although maybe some question about whether that financing will come through that's another point. But I'm curious, at Davos, is it the same vibe? Are the wealthy also saying, you know what all that kind of quasi protesting we did eight years ago, all that moral high ground stuff, we're done with that and we're going to actually be partners with this administration?
- [48:34]
I
You are feeling some of that. And the discussion here, you would think, and again, to watch all it happen from afar, what's going on in the last 72 hours has been really interesting. But you would think everybody's nonstop talking about Trump. They're not. You know what everyone's talking about here. And last year was crypto, crypto. This year it's maybe 10% trip crypto, 30% Trump, it's 60% AI. So if you look at the tech community, but also the business community, Wall street, everyone's talking about AI here. And to the extent the Trump administration there, you know, people listen, business people don't like tariffs. Tariffs are tax hikes, period. End, stop up, bad idea from where 95% of business leaders sit. But there's also, you know, less regulation coming and there's a chance to change things and make money and you're seeing people lean into that. So there's actually a lot of, a lot of optimism and buoyancy at the vibe in terms of a chance to really leapfrog in terms of making progress in some areas with AI.
- [49:29]
Jonathan Lemire
First and foremost, my Forbes editor in chief, Randall Lane. Look forward to talking to you in the coming days. We've got some 50 over 50 global announcements to make, as well as a 3050 summit to announce some major names, some of which you may be with there. U.S. national Editor for the Financial Times, Ed Luce. Thank you as well. We'll be reading your new piece, which is online now. And coming up, we'll take a closer look at some of the executive orders Donald Trump signed on his first day in office. Steve Ratner standing by at the southwest wall to break down the potential, potential impact these actions could have on our economy and environment. Morning Joe will be right back.
- [50:28]
Mara Gay
Hey, this is Jeff Lewis from Radio Andy live and uncensored. Catch me talking with my friends about my latest obsessions, relationship issues and bodily ailments. With that kind of drama that seems to follow me, you never know what's going to happen.
- [50:40]
Mika Brzezinski
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Mara Gay
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- [51:14]
Mika Brzezinski
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Sam Stein
It was captioned this was the last time I slept well. Now at first I laughed, but then.
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Mika Brzezinski
I got concerned because it was true. I always figured bad sleep was my.
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Sam Stein
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Mika Brzezinski
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Sam Stein
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Mika Brzezinski
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Sam Stein
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Mika Brzezinski
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Sam Stein
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- [52:17]
Jonathan Lemire
Welcome back. Within hours of taking office, President Trump signed a slew of executive actions underscoring his intent to promote fossil fuels and roll back America's progress on climate change and clean energy. Let's bring in former treasury official and Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Ratner. And as Los Angeles burns. Steve, tell us about it.
- [52:41]
David Drucker
Yeah, Mika, it's really quite extraordinary the number of things he's done. But let's start with drill baby drill. What Trump is talking about in terms of really ramping up our oil and gas production. And he also declared a national energy emergency. But it's really perplexing as to why he called for a national energy emergency given that we are actually producing oil and gas at record amounts. We have gone from being a significant importer of oil in particular, as everybody knows, briefly became an exporter during COVID but that was Covid related. But then under Biden, we've become a bigger exporter of oil and gas than we have ever been before in our history. And so who knows where this whole idea of a national energy emergency and drill baby drill comes from. But at the same time, he is also pulled us out of the Paris Climate Accord. And this is a really big deal because obviously as things like Los Angeles demonstrate, we have to address our impact on the climate and global warming in 2018, we were pretty much on a flatline trajectory in terms of not increasing but not decreasing our emissions. But a whole bunch of stuff that happened since then. The Inflation Reduction act, limits on tailpipe emissions, the emphasis on renewable energy had put us on an extraordinary path down really to almost meaning meet the targets that have been set for our energy emissions. Rolling this back probably puts us more back to here. And so instead of helping the world's climate problem, we go back to hurting it at a time when, as we can see, the planet is literally burning up.
- [54:16]
Mara Gay
Of course, Steve, this is the second time that Donald Trump has pulled us out of the Paris climate Agreement. He pulled us out of his first term. Joe Biden put us back in. And now, yet again, the United States has departed. But this is all that's just one of the ways that climate change perhaps being exacerbated by what Donald Trump is doing. He's also taken aim at electric vehicle incentives, dismantling them. Talk to us why that's important.
- [54:39]
David Drucker
Yeah. So about half of the fuel that we use of the gasoline we use in this country is for cars. And so reducing the amount of gasoline that we use is a critical part of reducing our energy usage and climate. And he is pulling back on our subsidies that were put in place as part of the Inflation Reduction act at a time when America is actually lagging the world in terms of our adoption of electric vehicles. China, maybe surprisingly, maybe not to people, is actually the leader. Over 40% now, a little bit less than 40% last year of all the cars and vehicles sold in China were electric. Even Europe, at about 20% is way ahead of us. We're down here at 10%. And so obviously pulling back on the incentives and the other restrictions on gasoline powered vehicles does nothing to help us. Now, one, one person who might be helped by all this is Elon Musk. So Tesla had about a 75% share of electric vehicles. Electric cars sold in this country. That's not unusual. They were the first mover. They had a great product. He did really well. The share has been coming down again. That's probably a natural effect of all the other car companies coming into the electric vehicle business. But Musk himself is on record as saying that pulling back these subsidies is actually good for him because his customers are stickier and they're more likely to keep buying these cars and his share will go up. And one little interesting fact, the stock market agrees with Musk. Since the election, Tesla stock is up 67%, which is one brings it to a $1.3 trillion market value. General Motors, by comparison, has a $60 billion market value.
- [56:18]
Mara Gay
And Steve, take us through your third chart now, which are two early Trump priorities. First, the border and the second, taking aim at the federal workforce.
- [56:26]
David Drucker
Yeah, so let's talk about two other things that he's been doing. Obviously, the border, as you guys have already talked about, is front and center on Trump's mind. But what's interesting is that if you go back to the first Trump term, he actually released an average of about 30,000 undocumented immigrants a year who crossed the border but had been either charged or convicted of crimes back in their home country. And so you can see that, and this includes, by the way, 309 people who were either charged or convicted of murder. He released them into the country. And that was a reaction, actually to an Obama policy. Obama had prioritized this. Trump deprioritized it in favor of things like family separation and other policies. Biden turned that around. And you can see here how much the number of people who are charged were charged or convicted of crimes back home got released in the country. So Trump's record in the first term is really quite extraordinary compared to what happened under Biden. Let's talk about another issue, which is the federal workforce. He's already put a 90 day freeze on hiring in the federal government, taken a bunch of other steps that we're aware of to try to what he calls rein in the federal workforce. But what is it we're reining in? The federal civilian workforce, which is just under 2.3 million people, has actually grown very slowly. It's only up by 100,000, about 4%, all the way back to 1981 at the time of Ronald Reagan, the US population is up 30%. And what's also interesting to note, and by the way, these little spikes, are census hiring. But what's interesting to note is that the biggest reduction in the federal workforce actually came under Clinton in the 90s. And in fact, the increases in the federal workforce have all come under Republicans from Reagan, Bush to G.W. bush and then to Trump himself, actually increased the federal workforce during his first term.
- [58:21]
Jonathan Lemire
Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Ratner with charts. Thank you very much for coming on this morning. What's up, podcast listeners? It's Tanks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks as I dive into topics like relationships, why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting summer comparison, and pop culture's hottest takes. I don't shy away from getting candid about my personal experiences and I want to share all the advice I have learned with you. I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ashray, Connor Wood and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes. You can listen to It's Me Tanks every Monday, Wednesday and Friday wherever you listen to podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you don't miss an episode.