Jon Meacham (5:29)

The first time this happened was March 4, 1801, shortly after the Shays Rebellion. Just if you're keeping score, when Thomas Jefferson walk from his boarding house on Capitol Hill to become the first president not of the governing party of Washington and Adams, as informal as those labels were then. And he gave a really important inaugural address, probably the second most important thing he ever wrote behind the Declaration of Independence. And he said, we're all Republicans, we're all Federalists. And every difference of opinion does not have to be a difference of principle. But there are some differences of principle. And a difference of principle is whether or not you acknowledge results you don't like. And that's the essence of life in a rules based order. Otherwise it's all kindergarten and the teacher's gone. And that is what we have to push back against again and again and again. I don't know about you, except for remembering possibly in Passing that both Vice President Richard Nixon and Vice President Al Gore had to preside over their own certifying their own defeats in the presidential race. I had never really thought much about the election certification. I think I remember Claire McCaskill saying with you all, you know, sometimes she didn't go when she was in the Senate because it was just, it was just, it just happened, right? It was like, you know, oh, you know, they're servicing the water fountains, you know, you don't go to that. So, you know, but now it's important. And a final point is this is not a partisan talking point. This is not a, just a way to hammer away at Donald Trump. To remember what happened on January 6 is an act of remembrance in the purest form. And remembrance in the traditions, Joe, that you and I and so many other people came from. Remembrance is not nostalgia, it's an act of agency. You remember things that you either want to emulate or you want to avoid. And we want to avoid ever again having American democracy on the knife's edge.

Joe Scarborough (8:08)

And John, you have said so many times through the years, and I think it's important to remember this today. You said so many times that American history has always been on the knives edge. Maybe, you know, if a battle had been fought one way or a treat had gone another way, we may have lost American democracy. I think it's so important with, with the madness that, that, that, that follows every election where every trend is exaggerated, where every victory is turned into a massive landslide, where, where suddenly X and Elon Musk and Bros and you name it, are in charge of America for the rest of time. In memoriam. It is important for us to remember those of us who know history, those of us who have lived history, those of us who have understood that actually a victory is just the beginning of a political battle, democratic political battle, and you never know where it's going to end. I always think about the two greatest landslides in modern American history. 1964, LBJ, 49 states. He's run out of politics. His own party gets rid of him. I can say Newt Gingrich became the first speaker in 40 years. Republican speaker in 40 years. He, he was run out of town. Four years later, Richard Nixon, 49 states out of 50, he wins. And of course, soon after that, he's being ridden out of town. He doesn't even last two years after winning 49 states. I am not saying this is going to happen in Donald Trump. That's not my point at all. My point is that for the Past two months since the election, there have been such massive oversweeping statements about the scale and the scope of this victory and what it will mean for America, for the next generation, that you forget that one candidate got 49.9% and the other got 48.5%. Wisconsin, less than a percentage point. Michigan, one and a half percentage points. By the way, in those two states, Democrats won the Senate race. This remains an evenly divided country. And no one, no one, to paraphrase William F. Buckley, no one is held hostage to the results of the last election other than other than what the Constitution tells us. And so we are still a divided nation. And yes, yes, Donald Trump won despite January 6, but that half the nation was okay with that. Half the nation, not okay with that. The debate continues in full.

Jon Meacham (11:28)

Absolutely. And as Ronald Reagan used to say, whenever he wanted to see whether a prediction was true or an inevitable result was going to come along, he would ask President Dewey how that worked out. History's always like this. It is contingent, it is conditional. And this is not, again, to our Republican friends, this is not to diminish President Trump's victory.

Joe Scarborough (11:53)

It's not. Not at all.

Jon Meacham (11:54)

It is, to put it in context. It is to put it in context, which is that, as you mentioned, 1964, 1972 and 1984 were the only elections since World War II. And really, we could go back farther, but I won't, because Miko will cut me off where more than 58, 59% of us agreed on who should be president. And we talked about this, and I really will leave you with this is 1868. I remember thinking a couple of months ago, you know, what was a presidential election that should have been 80, 20, right? You know, 20% people can get 20% people to say anything. So 80, 20, what should it have been? And I thought 1868, right? Grant's running Triumphant Union. General Horatio Seymour, the former governor of New York, who was a white supremacist, wanted to repeal the 13th, the 14th and 15th amendments, the verdict of the Civil War. It was a five point race. In 1868, someone who was against what had happened in the Civil War nearly won the presidency of the United States. In an era when some black folks could vote in the south and still a lot of white Confederates were excluded from the franchise. And it was a four and a half, five point race when they were still burying the Civil War dead. All of which is to say that as long as both sides, to use that phrase, as long as both sides acknowledge the supremacy of the will of the people and the rule of law and the viability of constitutional norms. As long as everybody agrees on the rules, have the fight. What January 6th was about and is about present tense, is what happens when some people step out of that constitutional covenant and try to end the debate. The debate has to go on, but it goes on in a constitutional COVENANT. And what January 6th is, is a reminder that not everybody, not everybody will follow those rules.

Richard Haass (14:14)

And as we watch this video from four years ago, keeping this in mind, we look at what a difference four years makes. And today, officials in Washington will be boosting security as a joint session of Congress will certify President Elect Trump's electoral victory. As Jon Meacham noted, Vice President Kamala Harris presides over the process of an election she lost this past November. Trump has said that he plans to pardon those charged and convicted in the January 6, 2021 attack, calling them patriots and hostages while referring to the riot as a, quote, day of love, bring back the video of that riot. One protester was killed. Four police officers died in the aftermath. More than 140 officers were injured. And remind you, President Trump asked everybody to go to the Capitol, said he would meet them there. According to the Department of justice, more than 1,580 defendants have been charged in connection with their actions at the Capitol on January 6, 2021. Of those 1,270 have been convicted. More than 1,100 have been sentenced, including 667 given jail or prison time. The federal criminal charges against Trump in connection with the events of that day were dismissed without prejudice when he was reelected. President Trump and his allies have since said the lawmakers who investigated the attack and Trump's role in it should be investigated themselves and in Trump's words, should, quote, go to jail. Jonathan Lemire, you wrote the book the Big Lie all on this. And it seems this morning the big lie has at least for much of the country, for half the country, for Trump's team, for the maga, right, the big lie has flourished. The big lie has become the truth in their eyes. And this riot that we've been looking at with all of the consequences is somehow acceptable, even celebrated.

Ali Vitale (16:36)

Yeah, the big lie won. And Donald Trump is still very much living the big lie. Just this past weekend, now, just two odd weeks before he takes power again, on the eve of this January 6th, he screened a documentary at Mar A Lago about John Eastman, who was one of the lawyers with a fake elector scheme on the lawyers whose efforts were to overturn the election. He gathered Rudy Giuliani, Michael Flynn, Peter Navarro and others. These were all people, many of whom were deeply involved with the efforts to steal the election. They gathered with Donald Trump this weekend at Mar A Lago. Also, I am told, speaking to people close to the former president. They're considering up to 1000 acts of clemency or pardons for those involved with the January 6th insurrections. That's most of the people that DOJ has charged to this point. Some investigations are still. So he is on the precipice of taking power again. And he still cannot let go of the lie that he lost the last time. He's still believing that it was cheated, that he had won then as well. On the other side, we have President Biden penning an op ed in the Washington Post over the weekend. He also briefly spoke to reporters, saying that this is a day that we should always forget. He's calling for an annual commemoration of January 6, a day of, a day of a somber day of remembrance, akin to how we think about Pearl harbor or September 11th or other tough days, dark days in our nation's history. But that is certainly something Republicans have done everything they can to wipe away from. And there's certainly not going to be any federal recognition of January 6th, the next four years when Donald Trump is in power.

Richard Haass (18:09)

There are two ways of looking at this day. Richard Haass and two sides of the country that are making decisions on it that completely don't line up with facts. Your thoughts?

Mika Brzezinski (18:20)

What it shows, Mika, is that American democracy has we close in on our 250th anniversary. We're still a work in progress and we're still vulnerable.

Richard Haass (18:30)

Right.

Mika Brzezinski (18:30)

I mean, just think what would happen the last two, three months if Kamala Harris had won a close electoral victory. It would have been challenged in the courts, it would have been challenged in the streets. It would have been challenged in state legislatures long before January 6th. This time around, it's not clear to me what this country would have gone through. We escaped it only because the side the Republicans who have challenged in some ways the rule of law came out victorious. So. But we shouldn't assume the fact that this January 6th is going to be orderly and peaceful, that we're out of the woods. We're not. And what this says to me is we've got to double down on the lessons of what happens. So what do we need to not take for granted that American democracy is here to stay? We need to teach it to our young people. Civics needs to become a staple of American education in middle schools, high schools and colleges.

Richard Haass (19:22)

I would say I would add to that national service.

Mika Brzezinski (19:24)

But that's the second thing I would say. Begin with civics, that no one should be able to get a degree in this country without being familiarized, educated, read the documents, read some of the history. Public service ought to become mainstreamed in this country. So we bring Americans together who are now living in totally red or totally blue counties or states. We ought to teach people how to navigate these information landscape because conspiracies and quote, unquote, alternative facts, there's no place for them in a functioning democracy. So the lesson I take from this is, yeah, we got through January six, four years ago. Yeah, this time we didn't have a major problem because of the outcome. But we shouldn't, we shouldn't get comfortable. American democracy still faces, I would argue, an uncertain future. And that's the lesson we ought to derive from what we're talking about today.

Joe Scarborough (20:16)

Joe, it reminds me Ronald Reagan said long ago that American democracy is not a birthright. It is something that must be worked for, that must be fought for peacefully. Of course, every generation and every new generation of Americans are tasked with working as hard as they can to ensure that democracy lasts another generation. And Ali, it's interesting much has happened over the holiday break to suggest that all Republicans are not going to lie down and, and give up their Article 1, or I would say Article 3 powers. You look at the House of Representatives, threatened by Elon Musk, threatened by Donald Trump, threatened with political extinction, that they were going to come in in their primaries and destroy their political careers. 38 Republicans said go ahead, make my day and voted the way they wanted to. 38, I've been through close votes. 38 votes. That ain't nothing when you're voting against your leadership. And also the incoming president. You can also look at the Senate who selected John Thune. You can look at the Senate who said no, Matt Gates. And right now we're still raising serious questions about Cash Patel and others. And then we haven't even gotten to the courts and what's going to happen there. It's again, we history will be written as we move forward over the next four years and it will determine where this country moves, where how strong American democracy is. But you can look back over the last two or three weeks and not, not just blindly think it's going to be a slam dunk for the incoming president, that there still some people that believe in checks and balances in Washington, D.C. and across America, or at least.

Pablo Torre (22:26)

Their own political and policy agendas. Right, Joe? I mean, you know, many of these members who were part of that 38 or who caused some problems for Speaker Johnson and his ability to keep the gavel just a few days ago before the weekend. I mean, these are folks who have their own individual goals and agendas here. But I do think that you're right to talk about the push and pull that we're going to see the Senate and the House create in real time. How much will they swear fealty to the agenda of Donald Trump? How much will they let Trump and his allies continue to just push through whatever policy agenda they want? And at what point will there be checks? I think it was striking that the incoming majority leader of the Senate, John Thune, didn't say openly, yes, every Trump nominee for all of the cabinet positions that he's put forward will definitely be confirmed. I mean, you can't speak in absolutes in this Senate. But it is notable that we are not at a point where even the most controversial of these picks, we've talked about Kash Patel, we've talked about Pete Hegseth, we've talked about Tulsi Gabbard for a different number of reasons. They're all controversial. But the fact that they're not just immediate rubber stamps tells us something about Trump's Washington. But to bring this back to the fact that it's January 6th, this is a party that might have disagreements on policy, but every single one of them, almost to a point, did come home and allow Donald Trump to retake control of this party to carry on the idea of the big lie. This is not a matter of just, okay, agree to disagree on the SALT tax deduction or on policy. This is the fundamentals of democracy in this country. And I think January 6th is such an important lens on Capitol Hill every single day because Democrats and Republicans are not operating from the same reality when it comes to that. And when it comes to things that are policy and politics, it makes it hard to have any kind of foundation of trust. And I think that's the bedrock of Washington and of the Capitol right now.

Joe Scarborough (24:22)

And yet there's going to be a one vote difference in the House of Representatives. As I've said, whether they like it or not, whether Republicans like it or not, whether Democrats like it or not, there's going to have to be a sort of unity government if they want to get anything passed. And Ali, I want to talk to you specifically about something that people started talking about over the past week. And that is the possibility of one huge massive bill that's going to shove like $10 trillion of additional debt to the United States government that's already $36 trillion in debt. They're going to shove that all into one bill. You talked about those 38 Republicans that voted against the last reconcile or the last bill continuing a resolution because they're concerned like I am, like a lot of conservatives are about exploding deficits, exploding debt. I mean, when you start talking about jamming everything into one bill, first of all, real small government conservatives hate that because that is leadership's way of shoving a lot of really bad stuff. We'll just say this morning down conservative members throats. But $10 trillion of additional debt in one bill, that's just a perfect example of how maybe the speaker and, and people around Donald Trump, maybe, maybe they are overshooting the mark there because I cannot imagine conservatives blindly voting for a, an additional $10 trillion. And again, they've got a one vote margin. So how does that go, Ali?

Pablo Torre (26:06)

Well, I'm sure there's concepts of a plan on how to pay for it. Don't you think, Joe? They're talking about this idea of oh, we'll offset the spending. I've yet to see how they'll. Exactly. I've yet to see how they'll do it.

Joe Scarborough (26:18)

You can't.

Pablo Torre (26:18)

Trillion is much more than the only.

Joe Scarborough (26:19)

Way you can do it. I mean, the only way you can do it is you can cut Medicare, you can cut Medicaid, you can cut Social Security and you can cut defense spending. I mean, I grew up on this stuff. This is why I ran for Congress. You cannot cut $10 trillion unless you're going to slash Social Security and Medicare. I don't see them doing that. And unless you're going to slash defense spending and then you talk about additional massive tax cuts for billionaires and multinational corporations. This is not something I don't know how they get from here to there.

Pablo Torre (26:55)

We're going to watch them try. I mean, certainly the way they're going to attempt to do it, and you know this so well, is they're going to attempt to overshadow the right concerns about fiscal responsibility. And they're going to try to basically talk over the people in their conference who have active concerns about how they can bring down the national debt, how they cannot spend an extra 10 trillion. They're going to try to say, but we're doing border security, we're doing tax policy, we're renewing the Trump tax cuts. Of 2017. Those are going to be the things that they hope it that they hope will sweeten the deal for reluctant conservatives who don't like the spending but who have also been on the front lines of trying to pass stricter border security measures. And the border is so central to the Trump message and the Trump policy agenda. It has always been the centerpiece. And so the fact that they're going to put that as a very key piece of this multi pronged plan, I mean, I don't know where these guys, maybe they're forgetting the difficulty that Democrats had during Build Back Better. That was many, many late nights at the Capitol, many missed deadlines, many failures and many key policies ultimately having to be pulled out of the bill because there was just no way to get them passed. I don't know many people that were happy with that bill at the end of the day, but they did have a lot of big wins to mark in it. Now Republicans are going to have to do the exact same thing. They're acting like it's going to be easy. I don't know. Memories are too short here on the Hill. This is not going to be easy.

Richard Haass (28:21)

We will see the host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale, thank you very much. We will see you tomorrow. And and still ahead on MORNING joe, here's a live look from the Carter center in Atlanta where former President Jimmy Carter is lying in repose. We'll talk about how the nation is paying its respects to the 39th president this week. Morning Joe is back in 90 seconds.

Joe Scarborough (28:51)

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Jon Meacham (29:37)

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Joe Scarborough (29:38)

Save up to $500 on select adjustable mattress sets and discover the award winning Tempur Pedic shop now@tempur pedic.com select adjustable mattress sets. Only lesser savings may apply. Hey friends, Ted Danson here and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife, and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody there, so why wait? Listen to Where Everybody knows your name wherever you get your podcasts. These are live pictures from Atlanta, where the late President Jimmy Carter is lying in repose at the Carter Center. Six days of state funeral ceremonies celebrating his life began over the weekend. On Saturday, President Carter's motorcade made a brief stop at his childhood home before continuing on to Atlanta for a moment of silence at the State Capitol. Tomorrow his casket will be moved to Washington, where Carter will lie in state until Thursday ahead of his funeral ceremony at the National Cathedral. From there, he will return to his hometown of Plain Georgia Plains, Georgia for a private funeral and a burial alongside his late wife Rosalynn and Mika. Obviously this is a family you knew so well. You would go over and play at the White House with Amy when you were 8, 9 years old. But you and your family remained close friends with the Carters throughout the years. And certainly my recollections of him while with you is what a lovely, wonderful man he was, and I may just add what a patient man he was with your father.

Richard Haass (32:00)

Absolutely. This is almost to the end, a man who was completely dedicated to service and to God and he held his Bible studies up close to the end. And yet I had talked to my dad a lot about their friendship and the friendships that were made in that presidency. And I've been reading my father's book over again, Power and Principle, which is basically his four years of working with former President Jimmy Carter and how Carter managed people, how they managed their friendship. And it often was intense and at times they would go play tennis or go running at and Carter would completely leave him in the dust. He was in very good shape, very physically strong as president and something that stood out just in terms of former President Carter's devotion to service and to God. In the book, my dad talks about Pope John Paul II when he visited the US And Carter got to spend a few hours with him and my father got to know Pope John Paul ii, had tremendous respect for him, adored him, and Pope John Paul II said to my dad that when he spent time with Jimmy Carter, it was as if two religious leaders were conversing, not one. So, Jon Meacham, you write in a new piece, quote, carter was a great and consequential life, a life devoted to the highest of American ideals, the fulfillment of. Of the promise of the Declaration of Independence at home and abroad. Tell us more about his tremendous legacy.

Jon Meacham (33:47)

Well, he's a remarkable American story to have come from the South. First Democratic president. He and Lyndon Johnson were these Democrats who came from the farthest reaches, when you think about it, of the republic, to rise to the pinnacle of power. And he did it in a meritocratic. That's a word. There's been a lot of debate about it these days, but the mechanics of American democracy and society that were available to white men in that era were the means by which the president, President Carter ascended. He went to public schools. He went to the Naval academy. He served in uniform. He was in the state Senate. He was governor of Georgia just moments after, historically speaking, the civil rights movement, and comes out of nowhere, really makes the Iowa caucuses into the Iowa caucuses, and becomes president in a. And by the way, to connect what we've been talking about in a very narrow win over a man who then became his friend, Gerald Ford, until he died. President Ford could name the five or six counties he would put his hand up that he had lost in southern Ohio, that he believes if he'd carried them, the result would have been different. I love politicians who can still name counties decades on. But President Carter had a remarkably global vision and a global understanding of what the implications of the Declaration of Independence were for someone who had come from segregated Georgia. And it's a sign that the world can and does change, not rapidly, but steadily when there are people of goodwill. And Jimmy Carter was of goodwill. Did he get things wrong? Absolutely. Was he perfect? Absolutely not. Was he a saint? No, he was a sinner who managed to do some really remarkable things. And sinners who do remarkable things, seems to me, are more inspiring than saints do. Because I don't know about you, but I know a lot more of the former than the latter.

Joe Scarborough (36:19)

Well, you know who else does? Jesus, like Peter, the center of all sinners and denied him three times. And he said, peter, you are the rock on which I am going to build my church. So thank God sinners have a shot at changing the world, and Jimmy Carter certainly did that. Jon Meacham, thank you so much, as always. Deeply grateful for you this morning. Richard Haass, first of all, an observation about Jimmy Carter that I noticed being around Dr. Brzezinski and President Carter at times. One is how different a leader Jimmy Carter was and that he brokered dissent, active dissent. I have read through Dr. Brzezinski's memoirs, his diaries during the White House years, and at times you read it meek. And I go, my God, how did Jimmy Carter keep Dr. Brzezinski in there? Because he was constantly pushing back and fighting him. In fact, in his office in Maine, he had a picture of Carter and him running and jogging. And Jimmy Carter, Jimmy. Jimmy Carter's line was the big. Perhaps that's it. That's the picture. Zabig. Perhaps the one time that we were in step. You just don't see that anymore with presidents. They want it their way or the highway. But let's talk about Jimmy Carter for a second. Of course, his, his presidency remembered for Iran and the Iranian hostage crisis and miscalculations there. Let's talk about some other things briefly, because I'm fascinated that 1979 may be one of the more pivotal years in history, other than, say, 45 and 47 in recent American history. You had the Camp David Accords that ended a ground warfare for a generation in the Middle East. You had the normalization of China in early 79, which created the globalization era in which we live for better or for worse. You had the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and Carter's reaction, and more specifically, let's just say it, Dr. Brzezinski's reaction, not only that, but also to Poland. When Solidarity came up, he came up with a porcupine doctrine that would have made it too expensive for the Soviets to actually go in to Poland, as they had with Hungary and Czechoslovakia before that. And then you had the Polish Pope and the week that changed the world when the Polish Pope went there, went to Poland, the rise of Solidarity. And really, you can go back to 1979 and the first cracks really in the wall of the Iron curtain began in 1979 with a lot of the Carter administration's policies. That, of course, history, of course, is as overshadowed that because of the Iranian hostage crisis. But I want you to do two things here, if you will, for our friends watching this morning. I want you to talk about the Carter legacy, successes, failures and all that that we just talked about here. But also I want you to take that last piece, Iran and how ironically now in Carter's death, you have Iran at the weakest state it has been in since that year, 1979.

Mika Brzezinski (39:50)

So let's go back to 79. For me, it was an important year, is the year I went to work for Jimmy Carter. I joined the Pentagon that year, among other things, working on Iran and Afghanistan, the two of the big events of that year. I actually think Jimmy Carter, you know, all the talk about his post presidency Joe, as impressive as it was, is in some ways damning him with feigned praise. It tends to underestimate the accomplishments of his presidency. Nuclear arms control agreements with the Soviet Union, the Salt 2 accords you mentioned, the normalization with China, Camp David, the Panama Canal Treaty, which gets criticized. But people who criticize it might want to keep in mind the fact that this canal has stayed open and operating and we have had unlimited access at the same rates as everybody else ever since. We're not fighting a guerrilla war around the canal. So I actually think Jimmy Carter was a really interesting foreign policy person who one and the same time was both an idealist and a realistic. In some ways, if you think about him, he was the forerunner of Ronald Reagan. He put human rights front and center on the foreign policy agenda, but he was still willing to deal with regimes like China and the Soviet Union, which to me was impressive. And by the end, he was increasing American defense spending significantly. He understood that, yes, he was a man of peace, but he understood the world wasn't there. So, you know, he went through the Camp David thing, but he jacked up American defense spending significantly. All of our military capabilities in the Middle east, what we now call Central Command, guess what? They had their origins in late 79, early 80, under Jimmy Carter and his Pentagon. So I actually think there's much more continuity between Carter and Reagan than anybody understands. And so I would give him a lot of credit for what he did coming back to Iran today. You're right. I actually think this is a remarkable moment. What the Biden administration is doing is handing off from Middle east to the incoming Trump administration, where there is more opportunity for progress than there has been in longer than a generation. And take Iran, which has been the principal problem directly and indirectly now for decades through its proxies. You know, given the loss in Syria, given that Hezbollah has been devastated, Hamas has, has been weakened, Israel can act militarily over Iran with impunity. What an opportunity for the United States to approach Iran and essentially say, look, we are done tolerating your support of proxies militarily. We are done allowing you to move ever closer to nuclear weapons. We are prepared to have a live in, you know, an arrangement with you A modus operandi, but only if you accept severe constraints on your foreign policy. If you're willing to do that, we can even talk about easing sanctions. But if you're not, we are prepared to use military force to make sure you do not get close to nuclear weapons and you cannot resume your military support or proxies. If there was ever a moment to introduce diplomacy backed by the threat of force, this is the moment. Donald Trump likes to think of himself as a dealmaker. I actually think he has a serious opportunity here, Jeff.

Joe Scarborough (43:13)

There really is, not only in Iran, as you said, but in Syria, across, across the Middle east. Expect a deal between the Saudis and Israel soon after Donald Trump gets into power. You're going to see countries that have been sworn enemies since 1948 actually moving together. And I think an acceleration perhaps of we have the Camp David Accords with Jimmy Carter, but the Abraham Accords reports with, with Donald Trump and of course, Jared Kushner running that in the first term. I think you're going to see an acceleration of that. John, I just want to follow up with what Richard said because I will say Jimmy Carter did a lot of wonderful things as a former president, and yes, that's an incredible legacy. But when people talk about that, I want to roll my eyes because again, he normalized relations with China, had the only peace treaty from 48 to the 21st century in the Middle east with the Camp David Accords. But, but I really want to key briefly on what he said about Jimmy Carter. We often look at presidents and there's always this jagged edge, this cut between the two. But you look at Jimmy Carter pushing human rights in the Soviet Union and across the world, and, and you look at the military buildup in 19, late 79 and late 1980, this was Jimmy Carter pushing America past the nightmare of Vietnam. He did not have a Congress that, that would allow him to jack up military spending after America had crawled out of Vietnam, after the surrender, in effect, and after Americans were exhausted by war. It took the shock of Afghanistan, it took the shock of Iran for Carter to be able to get military spending up and going again. And it certainly did increase exponentially. And the pushback against the Soviets increased exponentially as well.

Ali Vitale (45:18)

No, you're right. And first of all, most former presidents sort of get shorthanded by history. We all remember one or two things. And Carter, yes, the quick analysis is, oh, the most successful post presidency. His time in office is often forgotten. And look, he was likely the most successful post president. We shouldn't, you know, suddenly dismiss that. But I do think his time in office is now getting a reconsideration. Jonathan Alter's book of a year or so ago had a role in that. Others biographies have also come forward in recent years. And I think his time in office, though with its flaws, is now being regarded better in history. And this is one of those moments where after Vietnam, with the United States so destroyed and demoralized at home and abroad by what happened there, by the quagmire of Vietnam, Carter started to move past that and build up some militarily paving the way, perhaps intentionally or not, for what Reagan and then George Bush the senior did, just as the Soviet Union was beginning to run out of money and to bog down and get stuck in Afghanistan and the first cracks in the Iron Curtain began to emerge. And you just detailed some of those things that happened in 1979 that put the Soviet Union on that path. So I do think now, Micah, this is how, in part, how Carter will be remembered. Yes, he'll be remembered as a man of faith, a devotion to his God, to his wife, certainly to charitable works, but also someone who made a difference while in office. And yes, Iran, Iran, of course, was the thorn at the end that helped undo his time there, but someone who history will regard, I think, more kindly than perhaps he was at the time.

Richard Haass (46:48)

Yeah. And in closing, you know, the Middle East, China, a number of the things, the accomplishments of this presidency are the very reason that Jimmy Carter, as Joe was joking, was so patient with my dad and many others. Jim Schlesinger. Jim Schlesinger, exactly. Because, you know, my dad was a man who countered the thinking of many within the administration. The national security Advisor in Carter's presidency was the first cabinet level position. So he already came in hot, you know what I'm saying in terms of this is new, but the president, President Jimmy Carter welcomed the debate for the greater good. And I think that is what made a lot of what happened during his presidency so consequential and why history looks back at it as we get farther and farther away from it as a consequence of presidency that that move change the world. Richard Haass, thank you so much for joining us on quite a day this is in history. We'll be reading your new piece in Foreign affairs on quote, the Iran opportunity. Look forward to that. And coming up, the NFL post season is set. Pablo Torre and Paul Feinbaum join us with their takeaways from week 18 and a preview of the College Football Playoff semifinals. Morning Joe. We'll be right back.

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Paul Feinbaum (49:42)

Yards to get to 1100 yards, which.

Jon Meacham (49:44)

Will put another incentive in for him.

Ali Vitale (49:46)

Oliver fumbled the football.

Joe Scarborough (49:48)

It's picked up by Barnett, who's having a day. He's rumbling inside the 10, pulling guys.

Paul Feinbaum (49:53)

Inside the five into the end zone.

Joe Scarborough (49:57)

Touchdown Texans. And for Patriots fans, hopefully he's just like Josh Allen looking for his 115th consecutive start. Milton again booty wide open from the 16 yard line. On first down, Smith fires. What a catch. Good snap. Good hold the kick. On the way by Santos. And it is good.

Paul Feinbaum (50:31)

It's second and goal.

Joe Scarborough (50:32)

End zone shot for the lead. It's McLaurin. He's got it. Here's Mayfield.

Paul Feinbaum (50:39)

Three man rush steps away, looking gonna take a shot.

Joe Scarborough (50:42)

Deep left. Oh, he's got a man. He's the end. He is. It's a touchdown for McMillan. We're going from the 32.

Ali Vitale (50:52)

They fake it to him.

Joe Scarborough (50:53)

They fake the end of round to Franklin and here they come back to near side the men's. He breaks inside the 20 and he.

Ali Vitale (50:59)

Takes it home for the Denver touchdown.

Joe Scarborough (51:03)

25G got an opening. The acceleration jameer gives Touchdown Detroit. Those were some of the biggest plays from the final Sunday of the NFL regular season, including first of four touchdowns scored last night by running back Roll tie Jamir Gibbs. One of the few times I've been able to say that this year as he carries Detroit to a 31 to nine win over the Minnesota Vikings. Just crush them now. They're the top seed in the NFC playoffs. Let's bring in the host of Pablo Torre Finds Out a Metal Arc Media MSNBC contributor Pablo Torrey Pablo, we can we could talk about the Lions and their dominating performance. You know what I want to talk about? First of all, my heart breaks for my Atlanta Falcons, but you know what I want to talk about? I want to talk about the sign that went up with Chiefs fans, and I'm surprised they were this this obvious about it, but the sign that went up in the second quarter that said we will do anything to stop from facing Joe Burrow, who of course made history by being the only quarterback in NFL history. I think seven, eight games in a row, three TDs, over 250 yards. Burrow, if there were an MVP for the second half of the season, Burrow would win in a landslide. The Chiefs wanted nothing to do with it. And I'm curious, were you as concerned as I was at how badly the Chiefs tanked that game?

Paul Feinbaum (52:31)

I was darkly amused. And this is the story of week 18, the last week of the regular season in general, because this week is as much about the game within the game, it's about jockeying for playoff position, for draft position as it is about actually winning the game on on the field. The problem with the Chiefs, Joe, because I've heard from Anne Edelberg, for instance, just a sample of Bengals fan, of course, who was deeply, existentially concerned at how insulting it was that they didn't even pretend Kansas City did to try and win. So they lose 38. 0 to the Broncos, sending the Broncos to the postseason instead of the terrifying Bengals and Joe Burrow. And for me, because of course these are games that you're supposed to try and win, this was a bit of a it was like Watergate, but inverted. The lack of COVID up was worse than the crime here. So.

Joe Scarborough (53:25)

Exactly.

Paul Feinbaum (53:26)

Everybody does some version of this if you're smart, it's the strategy. But you didn't even pretend you benched.

Joe Scarborough (53:33)

The four most important players of the.

Paul Feinbaum (53:35)

Team and you lost 30. This is one of those things where the league office has to get involved on some level and say, can you guys help us out? You know, the first rule of Tank Club Joe is you don't Talk about tank club.

Joe Scarborough (53:48)

This was about the tank dreaming.

Paul Feinbaum (53:51)

We are losing on purpose. So I get it. I get it. And I get it, Cincinnati. I get it if you're worried about this because it was insulting. It really was.

Joe Scarborough (54:00)

All right, let's keep talking about losers. And not, not, not, of course, alliance. Who just looked extraordinary.

Paul Feinbaum (54:06)

They were.

Joe Scarborough (54:06)

And I want you to look. And I want you to, to. To. To provide comfort and solace to my dear friend, my dear friend, Jonathan Lir. Because let me tell you something. As somebody that has followed the Atlanta Falcons his entire life, what I learned is when a team's really bad, losers win at the end when they're supposed to lose. And what about those Patriots, Jonathan Lemir? What I mean, that is a sign of true loserdom.

Ali Vitale (54:33)

This was a failure on every level for this organization who went into yesterday with the number one overall pick. Were they to lose, they would have hold on to that. They have lost in every conceivable way this year. What's one more game? Well, that didn't happen yesterday. Now, first of all, the Buffalo Bills tanked almost as egregiously as the Chiefs did. But they at least pretended they put up a couple points, you know, but they backed. They benched their backup quarterback back. They turned to a third stringer. They didn't want their division rival to get the number one overall pick either, you know, but Joe Milton, the Patriots backup quarterback, did play well. Look, it's hard to get players to tank backup players who are playing for their next job, their next paycheck or going to play hard. This had to come down from the organization.

Jon Meacham (55:17)

It didn't.

Ali Vitale (55:18)

Pablo. And here's why this is so frustrating. Jared Mayo has been their head coach. He is a very nice guy. He was a good patriot as a player. First year, first year head coach. Usually you should get more than one year. But he seemed overmatched all year long. And after they win this game, a win that he seemed very happy about, within the hour, he was fired. Robert Kraft fired. Now, it did seem like that was probably in the works before this decision. We don't know. But now the Patriots slip from the first pick to the fourth. They lose the opportunity to have that number one pick because they have a quarterback already in Drake May. They could have then traded that for a King's Ransom.

Jon Meacham (55:52)

Yep.

Ali Vitale (55:53)

And instead they fall back. They won't get extra picks for it. And it is an indictment of an organization that has been off the rails since Tom Brady left.

Paul Feinbaum (56:00)

The thing about this is that there is no plausible Explanation for how you make all three decisions they made on the same day. So it is starting Drake may just for a series, just to get him out there. Why? What's the point of that?

Joe Scarborough (56:15)

Right?

Paul Feinbaum (56:15)

If you're worried about his health, why even risk it? Okay, that's one thing whether. But of course it's winning the game and then firing the head coach. Like the whole thing, Joe, about Jarrat Baia was that this was Robert Kraft's hand picked successor to Bill Belichick. Why would you then fire him as soon as the game is over instead of before the game if you were concerned about him not executing some plan to get you the number one overall pick? It's just. It's a triple bogey of anti strategic thinking after having again the greatest coach in the sport for decades. Three in three years, which is a remarkable turnaround.

Joe Scarborough (56:54)

Yeah. Pablo, let's talk about. I know you're a big DBT fan, as am I. And what you learn in DBT is two things can be true at the same time.

Richard Haass (57:04)

Dialectical behavioral therapy.

Paul Feinbaum (57:07)

Many are saying.

Joe Scarborough (57:08)

Exactly. Joe on one hand can be be crushed that once again the Falcons did not make it through. On the other hand, Joe can be very happy that Michael Pennix Jr. I don't care what anybody says. Pennix Jr. Bijan Robinson, Drake London, the Atlanta Falcons are coming. And for people who say they aren't, please. The Falcons future is as bright as the Crimson Tide's future is gloomy. Mark it down. But on the other hand, we've got to talk about the comeback. We got to come back the player of the second half of the season. And if comeback player of the year was actually about the comeback player of the year instead of somebody who lost their arm in a wood chopping accident and then played the next year, there is no doubt that Bryce Young would be comeback player of the year. This is a guy that got benched. He was treated like trash in Carolina. He was given no support. I'm telling you yesterday in these last five weeks this guy has looked extraordinary. Talk about Bryce Young.

Paul Feinbaum (58:17)

Yeah, look the la I was waiting for this. I've compared Bryce Young to your long lost child who's been away on study abroad in Europe and you're concerned about him. He's trying new things. He's looking a little scared of the new adult world here. He was was in the third straight week looking great. And when I say Great, I mean 10 touchdowns total against zero interceptions. So Bryce Young, for people who are not familiar, was the number one overall pick once Upon a time. Greatest Bijan, the tailback for the Falcons. One of these running backs who are, oh my God. Enabling this renaissance for a position that we'd all discarded. Discarded again like Bryce Young had been by the Panthers who benched him. A rare thing to start your number one overall pick and then bench him and then only to watch him redeem himself, of course, when they're long gone, out of contention. But still you feel so much better about yourself somehow. This sad game, this sad game, Joe, has enabled you to, yes, enact a little bit of self help. You feel good about the Falcons. You can actually feel good about Bryce Young, a rare Alabama grad making good on January 6, 2025. Absolutely.

Joe Scarborough (59:32)

Really? A rare Alabama grad. I think that, I think you just maybe the Eagles have a quarterback who, you know, maybe not a grad, but he's sure he's doing, he's doing fairly well. There are a few Alabama guys doing.

Paul Feinbaum (59:44)

Counting him as an alum.

Joe Scarborough (59:46)

Yeah, really quickly, really quickly though. And we want to bring in Paul to talk college football. We're top of the hour. We need to move to the news, but we're staying with sports for a second because we haven't even trashed Alabama yet. Let's talk though, really quickly. The Lions, who, you know, the word over the last three or four weeks around the NFL has been, you know, great team, their defense is too hurt. They're not, they're not the team anymore. It's going to be the Eagles. My God. Last night the Lions responded. Do you think it is. Are the Lions the best team in the NFL?

Paul Feinbaum (60:18)

They have been playing like it. There are other contenders for that. The Chiefs, of course, aforementioned, sure. But the Lions top to bottom, despite the injuries. It's because really I watched this game against the Vikings. For those who are not familiar, unprecedented to have two 14 win teams last week of the season playing in a game like this. Never has there been two teams this strong resume wise. And Jameer Gibbs, the guy that we're watching celebrate, he did that four times. He's not going to be the MVP of the season. He shouldn't be. But in terms of the absolute best performance of the entire year, this is it. To me, the most impressive single game is Jir Gibbs and that defense is what enables it because the Vikings again, they've now lost the Lions twice this year. They might get them again in two weeks. The Lions, who we all, I believe is the house pick here. We sat on this set months ago and said this looks like a Super bowl team that we got right. It absolutely is them. Right?

Joe Scarborough (61:14)

Yeah, it looks like. It looks like Gibbs, also an Alabama grad.

Paul Feinbaum (61:18)

That's right.

Joe Scarborough (61:18)

To shake to. Pretty darn good. Let's bring in Paul Feinbaum. Speaking of Alabama, Paul, we could talk about how horrible Alabama has been this season. I could talk about, and I will just say it myself. Devore is not cut out for the sec. His assistant coaches are not cut out for the sec. Alabama can drag this out for three or four years, but if so, we're going into the. I'm serious. We're going into the era of Mike Shula all over again. This is not going to get better. It was. It was. It was just absolutely horrific. That being said, I want to talk about something bigger. There has been a monumental shift, and it happened in front of our eyes over the past month, and that's been the SEC, which has completely dominated college football over the last 20 years. We've. We've pushed teams like Penn State, Notre Dame around. You know, we'd sleep through national championships games against Notre Dame. It's not the losses that the SEC teams endured that I took note of. It was the line. For the first time in 20 years, you had Notre Dame pushing around Georgia on the line. You had Michigan, a bad Michigan team, their second team, pushing around Alabama's defensive offensive line. You have for the first time since the early 2000s, actually, these Midwest teams competing and beating teams from the Deep South. And we can put Clemson in there as well. What's happening? How has there been such a radical shift just this year?

Jonathan Lemire (62:50)

Well, Joe, it's all about the transfer portal, where backups who are waiting their turn decide to leave. You were talking about. Just think about this hurts for Philadelphia. Jamar Gibbs last night. What about Derek Henry on Saturday? I mean, these are all Alabama players who. Some of them. Jameer Gibbs moved over to Alabama from Georgia Tech. Jalen Hurts ultimately went to Oklahoma. It's a new world. And Alabama stockpiled backup defensive tackles who ended up going number one in the draft. And they don't have that anymore. Their quarterback, we watched him the other day just, you know, throw a terrible pass at the end of the game where. And he replaced the aforementioned Bryce Young, who has been spectacular in recent time. And this is why Nick Saban left. He couldn't deal with it anymore. It was a year ago this week, not that I need to remind you, Joe, on January 10, that Saban shocked the world. But it really shouldn't have been shocking because he saw this and he wanted no Part of it, he didn't want just average number one draft choices on his team. He wanted the backups to come in for that number one pick who would ultimately be a number, number one. And that's what happened to Georgia the other night. It was a very pedestrian performance. But what you said about, about DeBoer is very accurate. He lost so much favor, good favor in that loss the other day to Michigan. The fact that Alabama, as you and I know, Joe, because we were there together in Pasadena on January 1st this year, lost to Michigan and on the final day of the year, they lost to Michigan again. I mean, Bear Bryant somewhere, somehow is rolling over in his grave.

Paul Feinbaum (64:28)

You know, Paul, I'm thinking about the sec and I'm thinking about how your finger on their pulse must feel right now because there is a representative, right? It's Texas. But does it feel like it?

Joe Scarborough (64:39)

Does Texas feel like the sec?

Paul Feinbaum (64:41)

Because. Okay, yeah, there you go.

Joe Scarborough (64:45)

Texas isn't the South. I mean, come on.

Paul Feinbaum (64:49)

There's no pride, Paul. There's no pride in the sec. Give me the relationship dynamics with Texas right now representing the proudest conference in college football history.

Jonathan Lemire (64:59)

Well, what's so unique is about 13 years ago, Texas and Oklahoma had decided to go to the Pac 12 because they thought the academics out there, Stanford, Cal, were far superior to the sec. They really wanted nothing to do with it. Texas was, was an acquisition. I mean, this was a Wall street move and the SEC now holds them and it's their only hope. But what he. What's even worse, worse than than that, guys, is it's the idea if Penn State somehow beats Notre Dame in the Orangeville on Thursday night and then Texas falls to Ohio State. Think about this. We have an all Big Ten national championship that will not go down well in my part of the world.

Richard Haass (65:41)

All right. ESPN's Paul Feinbaum and host of Pablo Torre finds out on Meadowlark Media. Pablo Torre. Thank you, Paul, both very much. What's up, podcast listeners? It's Tanks, host of the It's Me Tanks podcast. Join me weekly on It's Me Tanks as I dive into topics like relationships.

Joe Scarborough (65:59)

Why it's okay to feel lonely, fighting.

Richard Haass (66:01)

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I'm even joined by some of my friends like Claudia Ashre, Connor Wood, and Amanda Hirsch each Friday for our new Office Hours episodes.

Joe Scarborough (66:19)

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Richard Haass (66:21)

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