Morning Joe 2/17/25

Summary

Morning Joe Podcast Episode Summary – February 17, 2025

Hosted by Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, and Willie Geist on MSNBC, Morning Joe offers in-depth discussions on the day's most pressing political and global issues. This summary captures the key points, insightful discussions, and notable conclusions from the February 17, 2025 episode.

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1. Ukraine-Russia Conflict and U.S. Involvement

Ukrainian Dependence on U.S. Military Support

• Volodymyr Zelensky emphasized Ukraine's reliance on U.S. military aid for survival, stating, "Ukraine's survival hinges on U.S. military support." (1:26).
• Marco Rubio echoed this sentiment, highlighting the dire consequences without U.S. assistance: "We will have low chance to survive without support of the United States." (1:08).

Peace Negotiations in Saudi Arabia

• Jonathan Lemire reported that U.S. officials, including Marco Rubio, are meeting Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Saudi Arabia to negotiate peace between Ukraine and Russia.
• Zelensky insisted that Ukraine must be included in any peace deal: "Can you accept any peace deal that is cut without Ukraine?" (4:06).
• Rubio expressed skepticism about Putin's intentions, declaring, "Don't trust him." (5:14).

Zelensky's Security Concerns and European Defense

• Zelensky revealed intelligence about Russian troop movements on the Belarus border and advocated for a European army to counter potential threats: "We must build the armed forces of Europe so that Europe's future depends only on Europeans." (6:37).
• David Ignatius discussed the exclusion of Ukraine from negotiations, stressing the need for Ukraine's involvement to ensure durable peace agreements: "It is absolutely crucial that Ukraine be involved in this, not least so that any peace agreement that's made will be durable." (7:17).

2. U.S.-Europe Relations and Vice President JD Vance’s Munich Speech

Vance’s Critique of European Allies

• JD Vance criticized European nations for insufficiently upholding democratic values, asserting, "The threat... is the retreat of Europe." (7:48).
• David Ignatius observed a mixed reaction: initial surprise followed by European consensus on the necessity of increased defense spending: "Europe has to stand together." (10:51).

Historical Shift in the Republican Party

• Jon Meacham analyzed the transformation of the Republican Party under Trump, contrasting it with Reagan-era diplomacy. He warned, "The Republican Party now is in a place where, as you suggest, it basically is going back to a Pre World War II great power politics." (15:00).
• Meacham emphasized the importance of not rewarding aggression, a cornerstone of post-WWII U.S. foreign policy: "We cannot reward aggression. It's a deep and fundamental thing." (15:00).

3. Domestic U.S. Politics: Federal Workforce Cuts and DOJ Controversies

Massive Federal Workforce Layoffs

• Jonathan Lemire detailed the Trump administration's efforts to reduce government spending, resulting in thousands of federal employee terminations across various agencies, including the CDC and FDA: "President Trump and Elon Musk continue to drastically cut and reshape the federal workforce." (26:54).
• Katie Kay highlighted specific impacts, such as the termination of disease detectors at the CDC amid avian flu outbreaks: "The Trump administration has also fired 25% of the federal workers in a program that's responsible for tracking and monitoring the bird flu outbreak." (27:59).

DOJ’s Dismissal of Charges Against NYC Mayor Eric Adams

• The Department of Justice moved to drop corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams, leading to the resignation of seven federal prosecutors in protest, including Danielle Sassoon: "Danielle Sassoon... blasted the move and she resigned in protest." (42:45).
• Jonathan Lemire compared this exodus to the darkest days of Watergate, stressing the undermining of judicial integrity: "This is not restoring the way the Justice Department is supposed to work." (44:43).

4. President Trump’s Assertion of Authority and Rule of Law

Trump’s Controversial Statement

• President Trump posted on social media: "He who saves his country does not violate any law," which echoes sentiments attributed to Napoleon Bonaparte (46:54).

Historical Perspective on Executive Power

• Jon Meacham drew parallels between Trump’s actions and historical instances of executive overreach, questioning whether Trump operates under exceptional circumstances or personal ambition: "Are we doing things... are we violating the letter and even the spirit of the Constitution?" (47:07).
• Meacham warned of the dangers posed by a president who believes he is above the law, referencing past abuses like FDR’s internment of Japanese Americans: "If President Trump believes that anything he does is justified..." (51:02).

David Ignatius on Executive Abuse

• Ignatius highlighted concerns over executive power abuse, emphasizing the need for checks and balances: "We are now in a situation that tests the ideas that our founders put at the center of our Constitution." (52:06).

5. Israel-Hamas Conflict and Ceasefire Status

Ongoing Hostilities and Ceasefire Fragility

• David Ignatius discussed the fragile ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, noting the continued military threat posed by Hamas: "It’s likely to go on for a while." (23:23).
• Jonathan Lemire reported on the release of hostages and the absence of a transition to a lasting peace: "It now appears... this war isn't ending." (24:26).

6. Cultural Highlight: Saturday Night Live’s 50th Anniversary

Celebrating SNL’s Milestone

• The hosts briefly celebrated Saturday Night Live’s 50th anniversary, highlighting the show’s historical impact and featuring upcoming exclusive interviews from last night’s special guests: "You won't want to miss that." (1:26 – 2:33).

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Notable Quotes with Attribution

• "Ukraine's survival hinges on U.S. military support." – Volodymyr Zelensky (1:26)
• "We will have low chance to survive without support of the United States." – Marco Rubio (1:08)
• "Don't trust him." – Marco Rubio on Putin (5:14)
• "Aggression will be rewarded." – Jon Meacham (15:00)
• "This is not restoring the way the Justice Department is supposed to work." – Andrew McCarthy, National Review (44:43)
• "We are now in a situation that tests the ideas that our founders put at the center of our Constitution." – David Ignatius (52:06)
• "If President Trump believes that anything he does is justified..." – Jon Meacham (51:02)
• "He who saves his country does not violate any law." – President Donald Trump (46:54)

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Concluding Insights

The February 17, 2025 episode of Morning Joe delved into significant global and domestic issues, highlighting the precarious state of Ukraine's conflict with Russia and the shifting dynamics of U.S.-Europe relations under the Trump administration. Domestically, the extensive layoffs of federal workers and the controversial dismissal of corruption charges against NYC Mayor Eric Adams underscore deepening political and institutional tensions. Additionally, President Trump's assertions regarding authority and the rule of law raise critical concerns about the future of American governance and constitutional integrity. The episode also touched on ongoing conflicts in the Middle East and celebrated a cultural milestone with Saturday Night Live’s 50th anniversary.

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Stay Informed: For more detailed analysis and updates, listen to the full episode of Morning Joe on MSNBC.

Transcript

[Rachel Maddow]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why Is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Jonathan Lemire]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues, but as you look to kind of.

[Katie Kay]

Where the Democratic Party is, do you.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Can Ukraine survive without US Military support?

[David Ignatius]

Probably.

[Marco Rubio]

It will be worried, Very, very difficult. And of course, in all the difficult situations, you have a chance. But we will have low chance, low chance to survive without support of the United States.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That was Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky telling NBC's Kristen Welker that Ukraine's survival hinges on U.S. military support. We'll go over the latest in Ukraine's fight against Russia and where peace negotiations now stand. Plus, President Donald Trump is now alluding that the law does not apply to him. We'll dig into the criticism he's now facing over his cryptic social media post over the weekend invoking Napoleon and what this means as he tests his limits of presidential power. And also ahead, it was a big night for Saturday Night Live as the iconic show celebrated 50 years with comedy, music and special guest appearances. And in a moment, we'll have someone who was featured in last night's show joining us. You won't want to miss that. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, February 17th. I'm Jonathan Lemire. I'm alongside US Special Correspondent for BBC News and host of the Rest Is Politics podcast, Katie Kay. We're in for Joe, Mika and Willie on this President's Day.

[Katie Kay]

Always good to start with Napoleon, right? Yeah, President's Day. I mean, particularly, I feel. Yeah, the timing was impeccable.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, he was not a US President.

[Katie Kay]

But I'm sure he would have liked to have been if he'd had a chance and then stayed for a long time.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Lemire]

We have a lengthy segment later on Franklin Pierce. You won't want to miss that, but we have a very, very busy show this morning. We're grateful to have with us MSNB political analyst Elise Jordan. She is a former aide to the George W. Bush White House and State Department. Also with us, the host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale, columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius and Rogers chair in the American Presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian Jon Meacham. He is contractually obligated to be with us on each and every President's Day. We will go to him later for.

[Katie Kay]

Thoughts on Pierce President Bonaparte Day.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, President Bonaparte Caddy, I know you're from over across the Atlantic, but we'll have to straighten few things out. But yes, for talk, Pierce, Coolidge and the rest with Professor Meacham in a little bit. But right now we do begin overseas this morning where several top Trump administration officials are preparing to meet with Russian leaders in Saudi Arabia to begin talks about ending the war in Ukraine. But Ukrainian President Zelensky insists that his country will never accept a peace deal struck by the US And Russia if Ukraine does not have a seat at the negotiating table. Zelensky made the comments to NBC's Kristen Welker doing during an exclusive interview on Meet the Press that aired yesterday.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Can you accept any peace deal that is cut without Ukraine?

[Marco Rubio]

No, I'm sure that we have to be there, otherwise it's not acceptable. But if there is a decision without us and Putin will go out from all our land, we will be in NATO and Putin will be in the prison so President Trump can do it without us.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Secretary of State Marco Rubio arrived in Saudi Arabia a short time ago, a little earlier today to initiate negotiations toward peace. Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov also heading to Saudi Arabia, but President Zelensky indicated that Ukraine had not been invited. Zelensky spoke to NBC News amid a high stakes security gathering in Munich, Germany, over the weekend. While there, he did meet with U.S. vice President J.D. vance.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

You had a message to Vice President Vance about the potential implications of pulling out of NATO. What was your message to the vice president.

[Marco Rubio]

That will be destroying of NATO?

[Jonathan Lemire]

President Zelensky also shared details about what he said to President Trump during a phone call between the two last week.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Is it true that you told President Trump during that phone call that Putin is only pretending to want peace because he is afraid of Mr. Trump?

[Marco Rubio]

Yes, yes. I said that he's a liar. And he said I think that my feeling he said that he's ready for peace negotiations. And I said to him, no, he's a liar. He doesn't want any peace. But, but I think he is really a little bit scared about President Trump. And I think the president has this chance and he's strong. And I think that really he can push Putin to pierce negotiations. Yes, I think so. I think so. He can. But don't trust him. Don't trust Putin.

[Jonathan Lemire]

While at the Munich security conference, Zelenskyy said that he has intelligence that Russian President Vladimir Putin is amass more troops on the Belarus border to potentially invade other NATO countries. Additionally, Zelenskyy called for the creation of a European army to deter Russia.

[Marco Rubio]

Let's be honest now. We can't rule out the possibility that America might say no to Europe on issues that threaten it. We must build the armed forces of Europe so that Europe's future depends only on Europeans.

[Jonathan Lemire]

We've also learned that Zelensky has instructed his aides not to sign off on a proposal that would give the US Access to Ukraine's rare minerals. Last week, US Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant proposed a deal that would have granted the US 50% ownership of Ukraine's rare minerals as a form of repayment for the support Washington has already provided.

[Jon Meacham]

Keith.

[Jonathan Lemire]

But Zelensky says that agreement does not include adequate future security guarantees for Ukraine. And Katie, a lot of thought here that Zelensky and Ukraine simply doesn't have a seat at the table necessarily with his negotiations. Conflicting reports whether Ukraine officials will be in Riyadh at all about that for the talks that are set to potentially begin tomorrow between US Officials and Russian officials that also seem to be paving the way for a Trump Putin summit. Sooner than later, it looks like the.

[Katie Kay]

Europeans are going to try and get the at least the Ukrainians to a European summit where they're going to be talking, because a lot is going on in Europe at the moment, particularly with the relationship with the United states. Vice President J.D. vance delivered his first major speech on that international stage at the Munich Security Conference on Friday. Vance used his time to essentially scold attendees, specifically America's European allies, by telling them they are not doing enough to uphold democratic values.

[Jonathan Lemire]

The threat that I worry the most about vis a vis Europe is not Russia, it's not China, it's not any other external actor. And what I worry about is the threat from within the retreat of Europe.

[David Ignatius]

From some of its most fundamental values.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Values shared with the United States of America. For years, we've been told that everything we fund and support is in the name of our shared democratic values. Everything from our Ukraine policy to digital censorship is billed as a defense of democracy. But when we see European courts canceling elections and senior officials threatening to cancel others. We ought to ask whether we're holding.

[David Ignatius]

Ourselves to an appropriately high standard.

[Jonathan Lemire]

And I say ourselves because I fundamentally believe that we are on the same team. We must do more than talk about democratic values. We must live them.

[Katie Kay]

So not what European leaders have been used to for the last four years. And some were said to be stunned by those remarks from the Vice President. President Trump was later asked for his response.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Vice President Vance's speech to the conference has ruffled quite a few feathers in Europe.

[Jon Meacham]

What did you say to ruffle them?

[Jonathan Lemire]

He was talking about the freedom of speech and migration in Europe. Do you believe that European leaders have a fundamentally different view of the world than this administration?

[Jon Meacham]

Well, I heard a speech and I tell you. You're talking about JD's speech, right?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yes, sir.

[Jon Meacham]

I heard his speech and he talked about freedom of speech. And I think it's true. In Europe, it's losing. They're losing their wonderful right of freedom of speech. I see it. I mean, I thought he made a very good speech, actually, a very brilliant speech. Yeah, Europe has to be careful. And he talked about immigration and Europe has a big immigration problem. Just take a look at what's happened with crime. Take a look at what's happening in various parts of Europe. I thought his speech was very well received, actually. I've heard very good remarks.

[Katie Kay]

So, David Ignatius, you were reporting at the Munich Security Conference this past week. We spoke to you from there. Your latest piece for the Post is titled At Munich, Trump's Chaotic Approach Has Allies Rattled. So what did you see in reaction to J.D. vance? Because I've heard some reports that you had Europeans saying, okay, at least we now know where the Americans stand, that they're being clear about this and maybe it is time for Europe to stand up for more of its own defense.

[David Ignatius]

So, Katie, I think there has been a two stage reaction in the hall when he was speaking. There was what I've described as a stunned silence. The German Defence Minister was heard muttering, this is unacceptable. And I think that was the feeling of the audience in general here. An American vice president come to Munich and essentially insulted the European audience, lecturing them about democracy. The time when there are so many questions about democratic values being observed and upheld in the United States, it seemed particularly inappropriate. But I think the second reaction has been for Europe understanding that it's threatened from the east by a very determined, warlike Vladimir Putin to know that it has to stand together. Zelenskyy, in a clip that you played earlier, said, let's be honest, America may not come to the rescue. America may stand back and it's us, Europeans, Ukraine and the European countries that have got to defend ourselves against this strong, advancing Russia. And I found across Europe agreement that they do need to spend more for defense, which Trump has been lecturing them to do for years. And he was right about that. But more fundamentally, to stand opposed to Putin and Putin's expansion because America may not be prepared to play that role anymore.

[Jonathan Lemire]

So David Vance's talks there about the freedom of speech interpreted by many to, you know, his belief that some of the far right, the right wing parties in Europe have been muzzled, you know, and he compared that to the situation in the United States. But you're right, this is more than that. This is about a fundamental, potentially a fundamental change in the relationship between the US And Europe. These longtime alliances, those ties really being strained. And we're seeing that on full display with how the Ukraine matter is being handled, where it seems like President Trump's inclination is to go over the head of the Ukrainians and deal just with the Russians and Putin. What's the latest you've heard about what we should expect this week in Saudi Arabia? Who's going to be there? What's going to be the goal of these talks?

[David Ignatius]

So at this moment, and obviously everything that involves this administration is subject to change, this is going to be a meeting in Saudi Arabia between Marco Rubio, our Secretary of State, and a Russian delegation led by their foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov. I have not seen any indication that any high level Ukrainian will be there. There may be observers, but it's not the same thing. So in effect, what we are seeing is the beginning of peace negotiations over the head of Ukraine, one of the key combatants, a country that's lost hundreds of thousands of young people trying to defend its freedom. It's something that I find really difficult to, that we would in effect try to orchestrate a peace agreement without our partner. But we'll see, you know, anytime peace agreements, peace negotiations begin, that's cause for happiness. And I'm glad that Rubio is going to Saudi Arabia and that Saudi Arabia is playing a role as a broker. But it is absolutely crucial that Ukraine be involved in this, not least so that the peace, any peace agreement that's made will be durable. It has to have security guarantees for Ukraine. Ukraine has to feel confident that Russia won't come back across that line six months after the agreement is signed. Otherwise we're just going to have a continuation. What we've seen there since 2014.

[Jonathan Lemire]

So, Jon Meachin, let's go to you for a big picture look here. This does seem to be what vice president said in Munich and the signs we're hearing from President Trump and others at the White House, a fundamental reevaluation of how the US Deals with Europe particularly and being a bulwark against Russian aggression, which would just change the post World War II order.

[Jon Meacham]

It changed the post World War II order. It changes the Republican Party in a deep and fundamental way. The party of Ronald Reagan is fully the party of Donald Trump, which is a hugely significant historical shift where the center of gravity moves from Trust but verify. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. Ronald Reagan was one of the great negotiators in American history, the only union president to ever be president of the United States. And he starts out his term in 1981 saying to the Soviets, reserve unto themselves the right to lie, to cheat and to steal. And then he ends it literally in the spring of 1988, playing with babies in Red Square. That's where the Republican Party was 40 years ago. Now it's in a place where, as you suggest, Jonathan, it basically is going back to a Pre World War II great power politics where the rule of the strong predominates. And principle, which is always, as David knows, far better than I do, principle is always a flexible matter in geopolitics. But we have at least tried. Since we entered the Second World War after Nazi Germany declared war on us in the first week of December 1941, the United States has attempted to ground its policy in a principled ethos. This becomes a moment where if you are Russia, if you are China, if you are a foreign power, what is the lesson of this? The lesson is aggression will be rewarded. And the fundamental principle since 1945 has been that we cannot reward aggression. It's a deep and fundamental thing.

[Katie Kay]

Certainly, I think John seems to be right. What you're saying is right. We had 80 years of a wonderful relationship, and now it's time for a rethink. And arguably, the person you served, George W. Bush and then Joe Biden with the last transatlantic President Obama, wasn't clearly Donald Trump. Isn't America first, is Europe last in Donald Trump's mind? But what are the specific openings this gives to in the short. We can talk about China later, but in the short term to Russia? I mean, if you're sitting in Moscow right now, what are you thinking beyond Ukraine, or are you thinking, listen, I mean, there's another point of view I've lost so much in Ukraine. It's cost me so much in terms of people. I really don't want to go any further. Or do you think Zelinsky is right when he starts warning, listen. That they're having exercises in Belarus just like they did before they invaded Ukraine? Where's next?

[Ali Vitali]

Well, for Putin, he sees how a clearly transactional relationship with Donald Trump pays off. And he also, though, has to be wary of what he is causing among the European allies right outside his borders who are really rising to this moment. And I think that's what I would ask David Ignatius, does it seem like at the Munich Conference that our allies are seeing that this is not just passing talk from Donald Trump and they are really going to have to step up and provide more of European security and fill the vacuum that's going to be left by the United States States.

[David Ignatius]

So, Elise, they're hoping that the United States will remain a solid partner. I heard people, you know, you could say hoping against hope after hearing the J.D. mance speech that America would continue its traditional role. But, but they're trying to prepare for a different kind of future. It's so extraordinary this Munich, the conference that I've just come back to, back to every year as a celebration of the transatlantic alliance. The whole idea was to bring Germany, the defeated power in World War II, into the order that would maintain peace and security across Europe around the world. It's been successful. To have this attack on Europe take place at that, at that event was unusual. But I don't want your viewers to think that Europe is giving up on America. I don't think they're there yet. They're hoping but, but they're, but they're making prudent plans. They're thinking about their own defense because they know they may be in the end left alone facing Putin, who is, I just would note the intelligence reports are clear. Putin has not given up on his desire to dominate Ukraine. He's, he thinks he's winning. You know, he may go into a negotiation, but that doesn't mean he's giving up his, his basic goal of overcoming Ukraine's desire to be an independent European nation.

[Rachel Maddow]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Lemire]

And certainly Ukrainians fear that the Russians maybe, that maybe there is a year or two pause in the fighting, but their whole economy has turned into a military based one and they could rearm and try again before too long. So Ali Vitaly, you know, to John Mitchiev's point earlier, the Republican Party, this is such a change for them. You know, it's not so inconsistent from what we've heard from Trump before, but for the traditional Republicans, it is. And we, we did hear a little bit of pushback from Republican senators at the end of last week when Defense Secretary Hegseth seemed to leverage away much of what Ukraine could get at the peace table, settlement talks, saying it couldn't go into NATO, saying it wouldn't get its territory back. But what about some of these other Republican senators, Those. Yes, who are normally Trump allies like a Lindsey Graham and the rest who, what are they saying they're through, who have been strong throughout pre Trump post Trump being anti Putin. What are they saying here about this potential fundamental shift?

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

They have been strong throughout. And yet the America first policy that Trump is now bringing right back to the forefront of this new administration is something that these senators have known and had to adapt to over the course of the last nearly 10 years, that Trump has really grabbed their party and pulled it in the direction that he wants it to go. And so, yes, you're right that some, like Senator Roger Wicker offered some chastisement from Munich, that Hegseth and others were basically pre negotiating before negotiations were even on the table, that they weren't leaving themselves much room to maneuver. But we've watched the way that this Republican Party senators on Capitol Hill have all largely allowed themselves themselves to be remade in Trump's image. So, yes, you look at some folks like Senator Lindsey Graham, certainly Mitch McConnell is going to try to be at the forefront of this battle, especially as it comes to Ukraine. He's talked about the fact that national security and the role of America on the world stage is going to be his calling card in these waning years of his Senate career. The question is though, A, will it be enough and B, we were talking at the end of way too early about the permission structure and why sometimes for these Republican senators who may have true disagreements, there's not really an upside to speaking out because it's not going to change the direction that this administration is going and they are going to face the political consequences. That's been true on everything from confirmation battles, domestic politics, all the way through, potentially the way that foreign policy is done in this administration. But of course, as we talk about the Ukraine war war, we are also, of course, speaking about the ongoing conflict in the Middle east as the Israel Hamas war enters its 500th day. That fragile cease fire brokered by the Biden administration is still holding, at least at this point. Hamas released three hostages in exchange for over 300 Palestinian prisoners and detainees over the weekend. This is the sixth swap to occur under that cease fire deal. The three hostages, which include an American Israeli dual citizen, were forced to give a speech on a stage with a backdrop of Hamas leaders. All of this comes as Secretary of State Marco Rubio was in Israel over the weekend. Rubio met there with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu yesterday, as well as an Israeli opposition leader, Yair Lapid. And so, David, as you watch these concurrent parallel conflicts, what do you make? Of course, we've talked about the way that the Ukraine, Russia conflict is unfolding. What do you make about the way the Trump administration is potentially trying to carry this tenuous ceasefire into its next phase?

[David Ignatius]

So we had the disruption of President Trump's proposal to turn Gaza into an American owned Riviera. Putting that aside, there had been the expectation that the hostage release deal, which was negotiated by outgoing Biden and incoming Trump people, would be the prelude to a true end to this war, that the war in Gaza was going to end. And we move into phase two. It now appears to me as if that transition to a real ending is not going to happen anytime soon. The Israelis I talk to say we see Hamas in the streets as the hostages are released, strutting around with their guns. They're still very much a military power. They have not been defeated. And there's a broad feeling, I think, in Israel that for all the anguish about the hostages, Hamas needs to be militarily and politically finished before we talk about the next stage. So I begin to think that this war isn't ending. It's likely to go on for a while.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Much, much more on these developments overseas later in the show. But next here on MORNING joe, the jobs of thousands of federal employees are in jeopardy this morning as the Trump administration expands its efforts to slash government spending. We'll go over the agencies impacted, including the fired nuclear safety workers that officials now are trying to get back on the clock. They'll seem like important posts. Plus, the Department of Justice officially moves to dismiss corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams. We'll bring you the latest in the legal saga that has led to the resignations of at least seven federal prosecutors. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be back in just 90 seconds.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

This podcast is supported by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Planned Parenthood Federation of America exists so all people can get access to the sexual and reproductive care and education they need. Planned Parenthood organizations advocate for health, equity and policies that allow people the freedom to control their own bodies, lives and futures. More than 2 million patients a year rely on Planned Parenthood health center services like STI testing and treatment, birth control, gender affirming care, abortion, cancer screenings and more. Reproductive health care and rights are under attack from public officials who are out of step with the will of the vast majority of Americans. The constitutional right to abortion has been stolen and politicians in 47 states have introduced bills that would block people from getting the sexual and reproductive care they need. Planned Parenthood knows that equitable access to health care, including safe, legal abortion, is a human right. Right now, Planned Parenthood needs your help to protect access to health care. Donate today by visiting plannedparenthood.org protect as.

[Rachel Maddow]

President Donald Trump returns to the White House. Follow along as his agenda takes shape with the new MSNBC newsletter. Trump's first 100 days weekly expert insight on key issues sent straight to your inbox. Sign [e-mail] TRUMP100 get the all new CNBC Sport Newsletter. Alex Sherman brings you exclusive interviews and the biggest news impacting the world of sports, business and media. All straight to your inbox. Sign up for [e-mail] sportnewsletter back very.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Busy Monday morning here. We turn now to some news at home. Thousands more federal workers were laid off last week as President Trump and Elon Musk continue to drastically cut and reshape the federal workforce. The Trump administration has ordered terminations for thousands of jobs ranging from wildfire prevention to medical research. That's according to reporting from Axios and others. Sources say agencies have also been given until 8pm tomorrow to fire probationary workers on a case by case basis. Across the government, there are around 200,000 probationary workers who have been in agencies for less than one to two years. Employees at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the Department of Agriculture have reported layoffs and according to some reports, the Veteran Affairs Department dismissed more than 1,000 employees on Thursday. Politico also reports that many terminations came from within the Health and Human Services Department, hitting staffers at the FDA and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

[Katie Kay]

Yeah. The Trump administration has also terminated hundreds of employees at the Centers for Disease Control as well and Prevention, including people responsible for supporting disease outbreaks and the response efforts to those. NBC News spoke to two people at the agency who spoke on the condition of anonymity out of concern over retaliation. And they said that two dozen of the so called disease detectors in the program received termination emails Saturday that cited poor performance as the reason for the layoffs, even though most of the people who were dismissed had been given excellent performance Reviews still on health. The Trump administration has also fired 25% of the federal workers in a program that's responsible for tracking and monitoring the bird flu outbreak, according to new reporting. State and local health officials say they've gone weeks without getting regular updates on avian flu from the CDC after Trump froze nearly all external commute communications from the agency. As the virus continues to spread, the administration has not yet outlined a strategy to stop it. Cuts to USAID have also limited monitoring of the virus overseas while top Trump while top roles in the Trump administration central to responding to a pandemic remain empty. And of course, all of these disruptions come as the virus has been decimating poultry flocks and has been showing signs it can evolve to more easily thrive in other species. At least 68 people have contracted avian flu in the US and one person has died. That's according to the CDC. And the average price of eggs? Well, those famous egg prices, a dozen grade A eggs in the US the price hit a record breaking $4.95 in January due to the outbreak. The level, even if you ascribe to the theory that, yes, you have to have whatever it is, 20% cut in the federal workforce at a moment when you have an avian flu outbreak that we are watching happening around the country, you've got a measles outbreak happening down in Texas at the moment. To be cutting the people who are specifically monitoring this is the problem. We're taking a hatchet. These things need to be done with a very fine tool to make sure that you save the people like the nuclear health workers we're going to talk about later, nuclear safety workers. But why attack the people that you need in this particular moment to have that specialism?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Exactly the wrong moment to do this. And so much of it seems, seems to be the Silicon Valley tech startup ethos of go real fast, break things, and then if needed, go back and fix it afterwards. But Jon Meacham, that seems like a very dangerous game to play right now, particularly in matters of health. And there's such a difference, though, between perhaps trimming government, reshaping government and dismantling government. And right now, it seems like what Trump and Musk are doing is far more the latter.

[Jon Meacham]

Well, one of the benefits of being a kind of conspiracy theorist is you can always find someone else, some other force to blame. So if tragically, these forces that Katty lays out become national and international problems, it won't be that we cut the incumbent administration cut people. It will be, see, we told you they were Bad. Right. So if you keep moving the goalposts up and down the field, which is part of this mindset and it's what the country. I know there's some debate about this. The country didn't vote for this. They did. There was no mystery about the chaotic factor that was going to be part of a second Trump administration. Now, specifically, did they think that Elon Musk was going to be running around? Allegedly, I think the Post reported trying to get into IRS information, that sort of thing. The details, no. But the basic disruption is something that the country, 49.9% of the country decided to do. So one of the things that I've been struggling with, I suspect you all have, too, is how to best think about a political policy world that is now almost entirely chaotic. And one of the things we've learned, I think, in the last decade is that howling against the storm, you know, sort of the King Lear approach doesn't work. And it may just be that these more specific, clear case studies where you lay out, you know, what the federal government does, a lot of things they probably shouldn't do. There's a lot of inefficiency. There's a lot of inefficiency in the private sector, too. You know, inefficiency is a human force. But let's pick these things. Let's pick the right places to cut. And it goes to President's Day point, if I may, which is, you know, there's not a. I know it's surprising. I promise you I will. I'm going to quote John Quincy Adams in a second. But what I think what we have here is two. There are ways, both in foreign policy, both in domestic policy, to do big things without burning the entire place down. Right. And as Sam Rayburn once said, speaker of the House, any jackass can kick down a barn. It takes a carpenter to build one. Doesn't mean you can't fix the barn. Doesn't mean you don't have to, you know, do maintenance to it, but just to kick it down, because you can, I think, is going to hurt some folks. And the place to argue this, I think, is exactly on questions like public health. I would argue on foreign policy as well, rewarding aggression. You know, pick. Let's pick the conversations where you can make an appeal for a more balanced approach.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah. And John's point, he Washington Post reporting late last night that Musk and his Doge team trying to access sensitive taxpayer information at the irs. We'll see where that goes today. But amid the onslaught of federal The Trump administration is apparently looking to reinstate some of the nuclear safety workers that they had previously fired, but now they can't get ahold of them. Multiple staffers within the National Nuclear Security Administration were let go on Thursday. Then on Friday, officials with that agency frantically attempted to rehire some of those employees, but struggled to get in touch with them because they no longer had access to their federal government email accounts. And at least this is no better case study than this in terms of the dangers of going too fast, not thinking it through, and targeting workers and departments that should be protected because they perform such crucial roles.

[Ali Vitali]

Yeah, leave the people we need at the faa, maybe within nuclear agencies. Let's not just kid everyone. Kick them off the block immediately. I keep going back to this does remind me of the federal government version of the Afghanistan drawdown. Everyone agreed it was pretty much a bipartisan consensus we needed to get out of Afghanistan. The way it went about, we went about doing it was horrible. We could have done it in a better way. Right now, we agree that there's waste in the federal government and that everyone would like to cut the deficit and cut spending. The way they're going about makes no sense. They need to be more strategic about what they're cutting and where and have some success, have some early success to show that the mission can continue before you just decimate and hollow out critical areas like nuclear security.

[Katie Kay]

So, Ali, I know that you're still in touch with everybody on Capitol Hill, even though you're getting up terribly early to do another job as well. We haven't heard much complaint yet from members on the Republican side about giving away so much of the power of the purse, as they seem happy to have done over the last month. But as these cuts start to take effect, particularly on the public health side, to Jon Meacham's point, are you getting any members of Congress on the Republican side in particular, starting to get a little anxious about whether their constituents might have some of their funding cut? We know that quite a lot of this health funding, for example, quite a lot of the NIH money that goes to research programs is going to universities in red states. But if members of Congress are starting to hear from constituents that their nephew, who is in a cancer trial program, can no longer be on that program because the program is cut, I mean, is there a point at which the general public starts to feel the impact of what Elon Musk is doing?

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Yes. And we've started to hear from some Republican senators who are recognizing that while they might broadly support support making these cuts within government, they might not support it when it comes to the one line item in the budget that goes directly to their constituents. You talk specifically about where some of the NIH funding and grant money might be going. You look at states like Alabama and Maine. I bring those two up because Senators Katie Britt and Susan Collins respectively have spoken about the impacts in their states. But when we're watching Republican senators speak out now, it's not some kind of full throated standing on business for their constituents. They are doing it with a subtle message of, well, maybe we don't like the way that these cuts are coming down. Maybe we should rethink that. So we're not listening to some kind of full throated rebuke. Instead we are listening to senators trying to make the point subtly that this is coming for their constituents. I wonder if as we get deeper into this, we will end up hearing more forcefully from some of these senators. But certainly you look at the fact that they're trying to claw back some of the employees that they've gotten rid of. It almost feels like, well, if this isn't the result of my actions coming back to bite us, looking at those nuclear regulators, among others, don't forget David Ignatius, that it's tax season. And they're also looking to not just access IRS systems, but also potentially lay off IRS workers there. I mean, this is a full scale assault on government and it's going to have impact.

[David Ignatius]

I said to a Trump supporter during my trip to Munich over the weekend, and this is looking to me like a case of ready, fire, aim. You know, the aim only comes at the end. And that's no way to run a government, but no way to run a reform of government. And I think the point that you and Katty and John are making, that when this comes home to roost, when people in your district are getting their clinics closed or their checks aren't arriving, or other basic services that they depend on, or when the avian flu, which could be really deadly, begins to sweep across the country, people will say, where is government? Where's the help I need? And then maybe we'll have a congressional response that we haven't seen so far. But the way in which this group of young people working for the world's richest man are sitting in this kind of pinnacle, pushing buttons on algorithms and systems and deciding who stays and who goes. If you try to write a plot with that novel, people will laugh at you. But it's happening.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, it is happening. And it's happening just as much in red states as blue states, but yet to this point, almost no criticism from Trump's fellow Republicans. Coming up next, the president is now facing rebuke for appearing to quote a French monarch and yes, that one with while suggesting he's above the law. The criticism includes one prominent conservative voice who says this is not restoring the way the Justice Department is supposed to work. We'll read from that new piece in the National Review when Morning Joe comes right back.

[Rachel Maddow]

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[Jon Meacham]

Now is the time, so we're gonna.

[Rachel Maddow]

Do it, providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Jonathan Lemire]

How do we strategically align ourselves to.

[Jon Meacham]

This moment of information, this moment of.

[Volodymyr Zelensky]

Transition in our country?

[Rachel Maddow]

The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Jonathan Lemire]

We have the extraordinary events at home this week, the breathtaking actions which President Trump is taking, much of it following what he promised on the campaign trail pink slips for thousands of federal employees, some fired, others taking a now expired offer to leave their jobs in exchange for being paid without working until September. And in New York, a tense standoff played out over the Trump Justice Department's efforts to drop, at least for now, corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams, the top prosecutor in the Southern District of New York. Danielle Sassoon, a highly respected conservative who was appointed by Donald Trump, blasted the move and she resigned in protest. Six other career prosecutors followed her lead and resigned, an exodus that has drawn comparisons to the darkest days of Watergate.

[Katie Kay]

That's ABC's Jonathan Karl sounding the alarm about what he termed the exodus of prosecutors in President Trump's Justice Department, comparing it to the darkest days of Watergate. He was referring to events surrounding the SDNY corruption case against New York City Mayor Eric Adams, which has been submitted now for dismissal. On Friday, an attorney at the Department of Justice officially signed off on the order to drop the charges. This after a total of seven federal prosecutors tendered their resignations in protest. The final prosecutor to leave rather than comply was Hagan Scotten. He was one of the leads on the Adams case. Scotten has impeccable conservative credentials, having clerked for both Supreme Court Justice John Roberts and then D.C. circuit Court of Appeals Judge Brett Kavanaugh. He slammed the decision to drop the charges in his resignation letter, specifically pointing to the order to dismiss the case without prejudice, meaning that the DOJ could refile it in the future. Quote, no system of ordered liberty can allow the government to use the carrot of dismissing charges or the stick of threatening to bring them again to induce an elected official to support its policy objectives. Late last year, Mayor Adams was indicted on multiple charges, including bribery and fraud. He has maintained his innocence. Last week, the acting Deputy Attorney General, Emil Bovey, ordered the Southern District of New York to dismiss the charges in an explosive memo that triggered a massive revolt within the DOJ in New York and Washington. The filing to dismiss the case does not immediately release Adams from the charges. A federal judge must now approve of the order. So let's see where that one goes. Yeah, I mean, extraordinary kind of quid pro quo and people going around saying, well, Eric Adams is now walking around in a T shirt that says Property of the US Government.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Just seemingly so blatant. And then some of the city and state's top Democrats are saying exactly that. That Adams is beholden now to Trump will have to do his agenda. Can he really govern with New York City citizens at the forefront of his mind? We'll have more on that a little later in the show. Meanwhile, amid the numerous legal challenges to many of the moves by his administration, President Trump posted a single sentence message to his social media accounts on Saturday. While he was out golfing, I might add. He wrote this. He who saves his country does not violate any law. That line has sometimes been attributed to the French emperor and military leader Napoleon Bonaparte. Yes, Napoleon. Keeping that in mind, we want to read from a new column from the conservative National Review, which bears this title. This is not restoring the way the Justice Department is supposed to work. And it's by Senior fellow Andrew McCarthy, who writes in part, Pam Bondi now represents the Justice Department. In fact, leads is thus her ethical duty to advance whatever good faith defense there is of the government's conduct. If she is just going to spout Trump's grievances without putting the Justice Department's response into egregious behavior and context, then she's engaging in partisan law enforcement. Exactly. The noxious practice she claims to be rooting out the weaponization directive is doing politics, not removing politics from law enforcement. Plainly, the Weaponization Working Group exists to settle the president's scores and rewrite dark chapters of his history, while providing him with quarterly assurances of Attorney General Bondi's progress on what is now the Justice Department's core mission. So, Jon Meacham, you're the historian here. Napoleon got mentioned, so therefore, obviously we're coming to you. But this is, I mean, this is Napoleon, of course, not exactly the model of a Democratic leader. Talk to us about what this really means, because as we just read from there's all kinds of echoes of Watergate here. This is a president who's basically saying, I am the law. I'm above the law.

[Jon Meacham]

Yeah. Napoleon Bonaparte, of course, declared himself emperor of France in the wake of a revolution intimately linked with ours. Sorry, Caddy, I know this is a rough day for you, given 1776 through the caddy actually has a on Yorktown, she wears black. The anniversary. But what you what the point of the United States of America, as Thomas Bain said, is that in America, the law would be king. Now, I am not going to naively or sentimentally sit here and say that no American president in history has ever gone beyond the bounds of the Constitution in order to govern. They have always followed the letter of the law. That is not true. Right. Thomas Jefferson bought Louisiana from Napoleon, by the way, calling it a fugitive occurrence. It was not strictly within the bounds of the law. If Alexander Hamilton had tried to do it, Jefferson, his head would have exploded. But because people tend to be against executive power until they have it, which is an important thing to remember, this is about context, balance and scope. Did Abraham Lincoln go beyond the bounds of the Constitution to save the Constitution? Yes. I just ask you, and I ask the country to think about, is this a crisis on the scale of the Civil War is when President Trump came into. Now it's emerging as a very important, critically important moment about the rule of law. But it begins with President Trump telling us essentially that the country is in the. I'm paraphrasing, but only narrowly, is in the grip of a dark and even evil force, and that he alone is going to break that grip and therefore enter Napoleon from the Internet. Therefore, anyone who saves the country and breaks that grip is intrinsically heroic. And the danger we have here is that if in fact, President Trump believes that anything he does is justified, then we are in a place where we genuinely have not been before, having presidents who have violated the letter and even at times, the spirit of the Constitution. The Declaration is something we have had before. Sometimes we view it well, which I think Lincoln ultimately is redeemed by saving the Union, by suspending, you know, when he suspended habeas corpus, shouldn't have done it, ideally, did it? Union survives. We still go to the Lincoln Memorial. But some of the darks, some of the dark chapters that presidents then have to endure for all of history, the internment of the Japanese Americans during World War II is something that Franklin Roosevelt's administration always has to bear. And that was a violation of the spirit of the Declaration and the Constitution. To me, that's the question, is, are we doing things? Is President Trump doing something that, if it's in a particularly vociferous way, is it justified by the circumstances, or is he doing it simply because he can?

[Katie Kay]

So, David, listening to what John's just saying, and in the context of how Europe, where you've just come back from, responds, I mean, there's always been a sense about America. The pendulum swings. It goes one way and it goes another, but it comes back to the center. If, if the rest of the world is now looking at America thinking, you know what, America's not that reliable, we could get tariffs. I mean, we may not get them, but we could get them. The rule of law may be a little bit more fluid than we're used to, it being if we wanted to invest our money there, and we know that the Europeans are trying to mount their more of their own operations, there's been a lot of talk over of that over the last few days. They are having meetings with the Ukrainians, for example, over Ukraine. I think the calculation in the Trump administration is America is the strongest. This is the biggest market. They have no choice. What was your feeling in Europe? Was there a feeling that actually now they will start to look elsewhere, or is there a feeling that actually, okay, we would love to look elsewhere, But Trump is right. America is the biggest game in town, and we have to be part of that market.

[David Ignatius]

The United States is so dominant in the world that there isn't really a good option for walking away from America for Europe or indeed right now for China. So that American power, the momentum of our power, continues People are worried. But as Warren Buffett likes to say, anybody who ever in our history bet against America lost money. That's just been a bad bet. That even in our worst periods, periods of greatest instability, worst leadership, the country has recovered and prospered in amazing ways. And I think that feeling is still embedded in Europe. I would just say to what Jon Meacham said so thoughtfully, we're now in a situation that tests the ideas that our founders put at the center of our Constitution. They thought a lot about executive power being abused. They just had broken away from a king whose abuse of power had caused a revolution. And they wanted to make sure that there were checks and balances, as we always say, against abuse of that power. We're now seeing cases in which people are asking, and the courts will ask, is this an abuse of presidential power or is it legitimate? And I think, you know, hopefully at the center of how this is resolved will be our system, system the founders created to resolve differences in moments like this.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Our thanks to Washington Post columnist David Ignatius and presidential historian John Meacham. Jon, I know you had a President's Day segment on John Tyler prepared. I'm sorry, we've simply run out of time. Our thanks to you both.

[Katie Kay]

I'm so looking forward to it.

[Jonathan Lemire]

And we'll catch it on your YouTube page next.