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Morning Joe
Morning Joe 2/24/25
00:46:31
Germany's conservatives aim sharp words at Washington after beating far-right in elections
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- [00:01]
Joe Scarborough
Should the US have some kind of guarantee or return on the billions of.
- [00:05]
Mika Brzezinski
Taxpayer dollars that have flowed into that conflict?
- [00:09]
Joe Scarborough
Well, Shannon, I have. I mean, I have two problems with that concept. One, it just looks like an episode of the Sopranos, right? Give us your minerals or we're not going to help you fight a bloody butcher. I mean, is this really what we want the greatest country in history to be known for, for like, you know, some mafia thing? Look, we've always stood with the good guys. We stood with Churchill against Hitler in World War I with the good guys, even when we've gotten it wrong. In Vietnam, we were standing with the good guys against the Viet Cong. In Iraq, we were going after Saddam Hussein. Now this president is standing with the bad guy. He's saying Zelensky is the problem when Zelenskyy, with very few resources is trying to stand up for democracy against a totalitarian butcher.
- [00:52]
Willie Geist
All right. Ranking member of the House Intel Committee, Democratic Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut criticizing President Trump for his comments about Ukraine. It comes as we mark the anniversary of Russia's invasion, starting the largest conflict in Europe since World War II.
- [01:11]
Joe Scarborough
And I will say the lead editorial on the Wall Street Journal opinion page talks about a brief history of Russia's broken promises and says, in effect, Ukraine has absolutely no reason to trust anything that Vladimir Putin has to say when it comes to the possibility of a peace deal or a ceasefire, because they point out time and time again all the times Putin has lied about Ukraine.
- [01:39]
Willie Geist
Meanwhile, President Trump and his administration refused to say what the rest of the world knows, that Putin is a dictator and he is responsible for this war. We'll show you the latest deflections from top members of Trump's administration. Plus, we'll go through a consequential election in Germany and whether the center was able to hold off gains from the country's far right faction. And back here at home, America's top aid agency could essentially be shut down by the end of today amid more chaos within the federal government caused by an ultimatum email from Elon Musk.
- [02:20]
Joe Scarborough
And yet, one of the most fascinating stories this weekend that's coming out is the top agency heads are now pushing back in the Trump administration, telling members of their own cabinets in their own agencies do not respond to Elon Musk's directives.
- [02:39]
Willie Geist
We'll explain all of that. Also ahead, we'll have the latest on the health of Pope Francis as he battles pneumonia, among other things. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Monday, February 24th. A lot to get to this morning, along with us, we have the co host of our fourth hour, Jonathan Lemire. He's a contributing writer at the Atlantic covering the White House and national politics. U.S. special Correspondent for BBC News, Katie K. Is with U.S. president Emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard Haas. He's the author of the weekly newsletter Home and Away, available on substack. And U.S. national Editor at the Financial Times, Ed Loose. We want to begin with the overnight breaking news. A dozen leaders from the European Union and Canada are in Kyiv this morning to mark the third anniversary of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. European Union President Ursula von der Leyen and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau are among the leaders to visit Kyiv. Writing in a social media post about this trip, von der Leyen says, quote, on the third anniversary of Russia's brutal invasion, Europe is in Kyiv. We are in Kyiv today because Ukraine is Europe in this fight for survival. It is not only the destiny of Ukraine that is at stake, it is Europe's destiny.
- [04:08]
Joe Scarborough
And Katie Kay, you have Europe obviously all aligned. You have most Democrats in the United States and the Senate and the House aligned, as well as a majority of Republicans. It seems that Donald Trump is taking this lonely stand, even against the likes of the New York Post and the Wall Street Journal editorial page, and claiming that Putin is not the dictator at Zelensky and that somehow it is Zelensky that needs to give up more, more money, more land, more everything. And as Donald Trump kowtows to Vladimir.
- [04:49]
Eugene Robinson
Putin, yeah, and if those Republicans were asked in a secret ballot, you know where they would stand when it came to Ukraine and who was the dictator in this particular fight. This is a moment for Europe, a moment for Europe to step up, partly because they have no choice, partly because JD Vance made it perfectly clear that they couldn't rely on the American security umbrella that they've relied on since the Second World War. And now Europeans are moving in European terms, fast. We've seen and we'll talk about the elections in Germany, but already the Germans saying we have to move faster to help shore up Ukraine. Europe can't afford in this moment to have a separate identities when this is an existential issue for Europe. They cannot afford to be with President Macron visiting Donald Trump in the White House and then Keir Starmer, not part of the eu, of course, but still part of the European continent. They need to make sure that they are not making separate visits to the White House and having separate messages put across, but having a unified message put across. And that's what this meeting in Ukraine is about. This is also driven by Donald Trump. Donald Trump meeting with the Russians in Saudi Arabia has forced Europeans to work more closely together. This is the risk for Donald Trump. He pushes his allies away. And if he goes too far, he could push them away for moments perhaps when America actually needs them. So what you're seeing in Europe at the moment is this reorganizing of the, of the centers of power in the world that Donald Trump is instigating. But it could come back to bite him.
- [06:21]
Joe Scarborough
Well, there are again economically there are three spheres of power in the world. And we say it all the time here because money talks as they say. America has a $26 trillion GDP. Europe has a $26 trillion GDP. The EU does. China has about an $18 trillion GDP. You add great Britain and actually you have Great Britain and Europe having the largest GDP in the world. That is a sphere of influence that when working together with the United States and when the united that sphere of influence, those democratically elected western countries as our allies, we can do anything. So speaking of Europe, Mika, all eyes on elections. Yesterday is there was a fear because Elon Musk, the Vice President of the United States, Donald Trump, others tried to sort of place their hands on the scales of the voters. There is a big fear that the far right party was going to do better than the 20% that they'd been predicted to do. Didn't turn out that way.
- [07:33]
Willie Geist
Yes. Some analysts saying that even backfired. And we're going to get more on this visit to Ukraine. We'll be speaking later in the show to Ukraine's former foreign minister. But to Joy's point, Germany's Christian Democrats, the nation's center right party, has won the federal election. The party's leader, Friedrich Merz is likely to become the nation's next chancellor with his party securing 208 seats and roughly 29% of the vote. The campaign's focus was dominated by long standing concerns over Germany's economy and immigration policy. The party for current Chancellor Olaf Scholz's left leaning government finished in third place with just 120 seats and 16% of the vote. The nation's far right Conservative party finished in second second place winning 152 seats and roughly 21% of the vote, nearly double its margin from last the last federal election in 2021. AfD members have regularly flirted with Nazi slogans, diminished the Holocaust and have been associated with plotting to overthrow the government.
- [08:43]
Joe Scarborough
Let's go to Berlin right now and NBC News International correspondent Raf Sanz. Jazz is there. Rafa, give us a rundown. How did things turn out?
- [08:54]
Mika Brzezinski
Well, Joe, Mika, good morning. Two big headlines out of this consequential election. The first, as you said, Germany is going to have a new government led by a moderate conservative. But the second is that the far right made historic gains unlike anything we have seen in this country since the Second World War. So starting with that new government, as you discussed, it's going to be led by Friedrich Merz. He is the head of the Christian Democrats, the center right party, Angela Merkel's party. He is a businessman by background. He is in many ways a pretty traditional European conservative. But he is coming to power as in what is a deeply not normal moment in US European relations. They have an interesting tradition in this country, guys. Immediately after the exit polls come out, all the party leaders go into a single TV studio. They sit around one table and they have a kind of roundtable discussion. And Mertz was very, very blunt in that discussion. It's known the elephant round. He said that it is very clear the Trump administration does not care about European security and that as the next leader of Germany, Europe's largest economy, key member of NATO, it is going to be his absolute top priority to strengthen Europe so that it can forge an independent path from the United States. These are America's European allies, saying they need to strike out on their own. He discussed the fact that Elon Musk and JD advance pretty openly supporting the far right in this election. And he said that the election interference from Washington has been as shameful as the election interference from Moscow. So pretty stark words from the next leader of Germany. As we talked about the far right, the alternative for Germany, the AfD, winning 20% of the vote. It is about in line with the exit polls. There had been some concerns they might do even better than that. But guys, that is still one German voter in five casting their ballots for the far right. This is a party whose most extreme members have talked about stripping citizenship from Germans who have overseas heritage. One of their most extreme leaders, a German court has ruled, can be legally described as a fascist based on his positions. So they were in a celebratory mood last night. It is not looking like they are going to have any role in government. Merz was very clear he is going to uphold the so called firewall, the principle that the mainstream parties do not cooperate with the far right. That is despite the vice President calling for that firewall to be torn down. Meirtz is now heading into several weeks of Coalition negotiations. Analysts here say the most likely outcome is that he will go into government with the main center left party, the Social Democrats. That's likely to provide a pretty stable government for Germany for the next couple of years. But those same analysts are saying it could be storing up trouble for the next election in 2029. When you have the two mainstream parties in government together, it may be that voters who are dissatisfied feel that they have no choice but to turn once again to the extremes, guys.
- [12:07]
Joe Scarborough
All right, NBC Z Raf Sanchez live from Berlin. Thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. I will say one thing that has changed. You actually have the Christian Democrats who have taken a tougher line on immigration, something that hasn't happened in the EU for well over a decade. It's important to remember everything is context. It's important to remember that Angela Merkel allowed millions, well over a million immigrants into Syria, many with absolutely no screening at all. It caused serious political turmoil in that country and it led, as we predicted here, for well over a decade. It led to the rise of a far right party. I will say though, Ed Lush yesterday, it does appear though that the center did hold the grand coalition still in place. The center right and the center left will be going together. And I understand AFD makes the big headlines, but they were sitting at 20% expecting to do far better after Elon Musk basically told them, never mind about the Holocaust, forget about your past, don't be guilty about any of that. Then J.D. vance came over talking about tearing down a firewall. Well, I will say it appears that German voters responded to those messages about as effectively as American voters would respond to German politicians going to Peoria and telling them how to vote in their American elections.
- [13:35]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, I think that's a pretty good way of putting it. In fact, arguably, if you see the turnout, which was a high, a recent high in Germany, 85% of German voters voted yesterday. Compare that to the recent high in US presidential elections of 66% in 2020. Then arguably Elon Musk really stimulated everyone else, the anti AfD vote, to come out and vote and limit it to that 1 in 5 ceiling that it's been at for some time. Look, it's still, by German post war standards, a pretty sobering result to see not just the far right get 1 in 5, but the far left surging as well. So put together extreme parties are now about 30% of the German vote and they used to be nowhere. But relative to where other democracies are going, including the United States, nearly half of America voted For Trump, this is a moderate center is holding election. And I think that the change in chancellors from Olaf Scholz to Friedrich Marx is extremely good news in terms of what Katie was just saying. If we want Europe to move fast, because he's very clear, he said we've got no time for the usual German weeks and months of coalition negotiations. The world will not wait on us. We've got to move quickly and we've got to, we've got to build up our defenses against Russia. That's essentially his message.
- [15:18]
Joe Scarborough
Well, and I will say, Jonathan, also, he is a conservative. He is again, he's taken this strong stance on immigration, not a radical stance on immigration, but the type of stance that the mushy middle in Europe has refused to take over the past decade and has allowed right wing governments to rise in one country after another. Talk about firewalls. His views on immigration appear to be a firewall against again lending power to the far right. He also, as a conservative and a guy that's been involved in business for a very long time is going to be in a position to address a real problem in Germany. And that is right now just an economy that is, is, is really stumbling and struggling along. Germany needs a Kickstarter. And there are many people who believe this center right politician, the center right leader, if chancellor, this center right chancellor can do that.
- [16:15]
Richard Haass
Yeah, deeply sluggish economy for some time now. One final note about the Musk and Vance role here. There were some polls of a month or so back that suggest would do better than they did yesterday. Now still again a noteworthy result to be sure, but it seems like Musk and Vance didn't really help and in some ways maybe even hurt some of the results. But Richard Haass, you still think we were talking as you sat down here, that it is, is an alarming number that that far right party received one in five. So talk to us a little bit more about that. But also the sort of the rightward shift here we're seeing in Germany, throughout Europe and how it's going to deal with the United States.
- [16:51]
Ed Luce
Two things to me, Jonathan, were really interesting just quickly to put it aside, merits in that so called elephant talk, you know, after the election to be so critical of the United States, what we're essentially seeing after 80 years, you can almost hear and see the tectonic plate shifting, the transatlantic era is ending. What Donald Trump has done, essentially Trump 2.0 is signaled to Europeans that America is a very different country for having reelected Donald Trump. And the Atlantic alliance, which was an assumption for Europeans that the United States was there for them. And by the way, these negotiations with Ukraine over minerals reinforce this. It used to be the United States help Europe because it was good for us. Now the argument seems to be, we'll only help you if we get something in return. So all of this has shaken up Europe. That's one big thing to me, me. The other is the German result. About a third of the Germans voted far left and far right. So you've got this coalition that's going to happen, the center right and the center left. We'll see how well they can, they can govern. It's not clear to me they're going to have the political ability to raise defense spending nearly as much as it needs to be done. But what worries me though, if you break down some of the vote, younger people really quite supportive of the more extreme parties. My own sense is that if Germany doesn't succeed in these few years, by the time of the next election, it could look a lot more like Britain, Britain and France. And by that I mean very large far right and far left parties. The center gets hollowed out. So I don't want to say this is the last chance for Germany, but this is a big moment. Whether merits can build a coalition that succeeds and could actually govern. And if they can, great. If they can't, the consequences for Germany and for Europe would be really, really profound.
- [18:31]
Willie Geist
And Joe, to the point you were making earlier, I mean, on this show, it's not just a knee jerk reaction moment to moment. For a decade now, you've been warning on this platform right here about the potential backlash that could come from the European Union's lax immigration laws and how often these laws have led and will continue to lead to a rise in the new far right in Europe. Take a look.
- [18:58]
Joe Scarborough
Obviously, none of us here, Elise, are sitting here excited about the emergence of far right nationalist parties. At the same time, they didn't rise out of, you know, dust. They rose because the EU has had disastrous open border policies for years now. I guess the bigger issue here that we need to talk about then is the fact that Europe is letting us down. They are letting us down with their porous EU borders. They are letting us down. I mean, Angela Merkel gets on the front of Time magazine as person of the Year last year for basically an extraordinarily reckless policy that makes everybody feel good, but allows refugees that just aren't processed properly to flood into Europe. I haven't understood why mainstream political parties have not given the voters of Europe A middle choice when it comes to immigration. But it's an all or nothing. You either support open borders and somebody being able to get in in Turkey and move around freely and blow up something in London, or you're a racist. Those are the two choices voters have been given. And it's no secret why people like Le Pen have actually gotten a following among voters who were mainstream 10 years ago. Because there's never a center ground because a politician in Germany can't take a center ground or France can't take a center ground on immigration and talk about culture, talk about borders without being called a neo Nazi. Then you just seed the entire pitch, we'll say to the far right. It echoes what I've been saying about European leaders for about five years, where they are so absolutist on open borders. They are so absolutist about letting a mass flow of immigrants into their country that if you don't do that, then you're a neo Nazi. There's never been a middle ground in Europe over the past five years, which has naturally led to the sort of right wing nationalist governments growing in Europe. It seems to me. You go back to 2015, the refugee crisis spilling out of Syria. So many of the dramatic changes that have come in across Europe have come in part as a reaction to an immigration system that allows somebody to come into one EU country and go across borders of all of them. Anybody that suggested that having an absolutist view in the eu, where somebody could come in one country and go across the entire continent of Europe, anybody that suggested that that might not be wise, was branded a right wing extremist. This absolutist view, I warned for a decade, would lead to far right parties becoming more powerful in Europe.
- [21:59]
Willie Geist
So how does that all connect with what we saw in Germany yesterday?
- [22:03]
Joe Scarborough
Well, I think in a couple of ways. First of all, and those warnings were going back even before 2016. It's something we've aged, been warning for a very long time. Yeah, I mean, you can look at. You notice the hair. My hair changes radically year in and year out. Ed Loose's and Richard Haass's stay the same. But I think, though, you're actually starting to see a reaction to it. You're starting to see a reaction. You've seen it over the past year. They were a decade late, Richard. But you actually have started to see a shift, let's say, with Macron. You, you certainly do have in this new German government, a German government who enraged a lot of people by our German leader. Merz, who enraged a lot of people by actually going through that firewall and working with AFD to pass tougher immigration laws because that's the only way he can do it. I think it's going to, they're going to be able to do it now with this grand coalition. But you know, if you're a German voter and Angela Merkel lets in over a million Syrians without checking their security and in no vetting process whatsoever. And this was basically Europe's approach for 15 years. And if anybody questioned anything, they were immediately called a Nazi. It's just not hard to predict what's going to come of that. The question is, are European leaders like Mers responding now in a way that pushes back against that right wing extremism?
- [23:29]
Ed Luce
They're beginning to, Joe. But you know, Europe still has open borders within the eu. So if any single country in Europe, Europe has openness, it affects the other two dozen countries. So I still think Europe has a way to go. It hasn't quite come to terms with immigration. It's also many countries, France, Germany, Britain in particular has had real problems with integration. You know, Merkel was rather sanguine about it. But I think the idea that you can absorb large numbers in short amounts of time and have them learn the language and get comfortable with the culture has proven to be not quite true. And by the way, it's impossible to have this country, this conversation, Joe, and not think about the parallels here about the implications of open borders in the first few years of the Biden administration.
- [24:13]
Joe Scarborough
Right.
- [24:14]
Ed Luce
Say as much as anything are responsible for Donald Trump getting, getting reelected. I think it's pretty, pretty straightforward.
- [24:20]
Joe Scarborough
And if anybody would like us to pull up clips from 21:22 as we're issuing those warnings here in America, let's not, we could be glad, be glad to do that as well because the warnings were there and it was obvious there as well, though. But again, Mika, what you're, what you're starting to see though is you are starting to see some European leaders moderate a bit.
- [24:39]
Willie Geist
Yeah.
- [24:40]
Joe Scarborough
And we have seen the impact in America and the impact from the last election. I will say though, there is a huge difference between the United States and France, a huge difference between the United States and Germany. We are a nation of immigrants. We are a nation that was built on immigrants coming to this country over the past 250 years. It's just not the case with Germany. It's not the case with France. And when you bring in a million plus immigrants from Syria overnight, it's going to have this sort of impact there again. Sure. Merkel got times person of the year. It probably be much better if there had been a more reasonable rational approach that understood German culture or French culture or even British culture. It's far different than the United States. We are a melting pot and even we had trouble absorbing culturally the images that we saw in 21 and 22.
- [25:43]
Willie Geist
All right. Still ahead on Morning Joe. As we mentioned, today marks three years since Russia began its, its full scale invasion of Ukraine. This comes as some top Trump administration officials will not admit that Moscow was the aggressor. We'll show you those new remarks and be joined by Ukraine's former foreign minister. We're back in 90 seconds.
- [26:12]
Joe Scarborough
Ms. President, newspaper just about as your stance in Ukraine, I was looking up, I almost found no indications that you said anything bad about Zelensky up until the last few days. And it seems as though when he didn't take the mineral deal and was critical of you for having having a delegation talk in Saudi Arabia with Russia, that was a turning point for you. Correct?
- [26:32]
Donald Trump
I've been watching for years and I've been watching him negotiate with no cards. He has no cards. And you get sick of it. You just get sick of it. And I've had it. And he then made a deal with us for rare earth and things. And who knows what rare earth is worth, you know, but at least it's something. But look what you have. You have a man who's led a country that had the most beautiful cities that they demolished, had the most beautiful domes. Those domes are the most beautiful.
- [27:07]
Joe Scarborough
But it's all Russia's. But that's Russia's fault though.
- [27:09]
Donald Trump
Architecture, they're all demolished. A thousand year old domes and everything's demolished. I mean it's like a demolition site though. It's sort of like Gaza. In fact, it's more at least Gaza has a couple of buildings standing. I mean this place, you take a look at the demolition of so many of those cities and all those people are killed never to come back again.
- [27:35]
Joe Scarborough
But Mr. President, that's all, that's Vladimir Putin's fault. Don't you agree?
- [27:39]
Donald Trump
I get tired of listening to it. I'll tell you what, I've seen it enough. And then he complains that he's not at a meeting that we're having with Saudi Arabia trying to intermediate a peace. Well, he's been at meetings for three years with a very with a president who didn't know what the hell he was doing. He's been in A meetings for three years and nothing got done. So I don't think it's very important to be at meetings, to be honest with you. He's been there for three years. He makes it very hard to make deals. But look what's happened to his country. It's been demolished.
- [28:10]
Joe Scarborough
But no, no, I hear you. He's Gonna go back, Mr. President, but you know who to blame for that.
- [28:13]
Donald Trump
If and when there's people, don't you.
- [28:15]
Joe Scarborough
Think it's Vladimir Putin. Putin that did the invasion unwarranted to try to take back land he had no right to. And don't you think fundamentally that's that? And if you could just. Now, now both sides want to talk, it seems so we should just get to that point.
- [28:29]
Donald Trump
They only want to talk because of me. If I wasn't involved, they wouldn't be talking to each other. And Russia would continue to, you know, go through Ukraine because they are going through. Brian, They've taken a lot of land and Russia would continue the march through Ukraine. If it wasn't for me, they wouldn't be talking at all. I'm the only reason they're talking.
- [28:50]
Joe Scarborough
Well, they weren't talking because Vladimir Putin wouldn't talk to Zelensky, first of all. Secondly, it is interesting, Brian Kilmeade kept trying to say, well, if all the buildings are knocked down, Mr. President, they're all knocked down because of Vladimir Putin. I mean, that's the reason why they're destroyed. And so now for some reason, the logic is that you actually punish a country for being invaded and having their buildings knocked down by a Russian invader. It's very interesting. Mark Halperin's newsletter this morning talks about how there are many Democrats and others who believe that things are turning just a bit. And he makes a long list talking about how maybe the reasons why Donald Trump's negatives keep going up. And a few things that he lists are. And you can hear it right there, you can see it in the New York Post, you can see it in Wall Street Journal editorial page. Those are three Rupert Murdoch run outlets. America and the world will not stand for Trump insulting Zelensky writes the wide world of News. Zelensky is proudly standing up to Trump. Trump kowtowing to Putin is unseemly, but and also has consequences for the world. Empowering the Russian dictator and emboldening Xi, among many other negative spinoff effects. And that, that is, I think, for Republicans that I speak to Mika off the record, their real concern, of course, they're horrified that it is Zelensky that's being called a dictator and Putin getting a free pass. But what they're really concerned about is a message that it's sending to the Communist Chinese, who, if Putin is given a free pass for invading Ukraine, then these Republicans and all Democrats, and they'll say it publicly, are afraid that Donald Trump is empowering the Communist Chinese to invade Taiwan.
- [30:58]
Willie Geist
So it's not just President Trump taking the position you heard in that radio interview. Now three Trump administration officials are dodging questions about whether Russia is responsible. A simple question for starting the conflict in Ukraine. Here's what Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, National Security Adviser Michael Waltz, and Special Envoy Steve Witkoff had to say yesterday.
- [31:23]
Joe Scarborough
I don't need to get into the characterization of. We know who invaded who. We understand the stakes of this game. America, more than any other country in the world, has invested in helping Ukraine defend itself. Now it's time for peace. And that's what the president is dedicated to. So standing here and saying, you're good, you're bad, you're a dictator, you're not a dictator, you invaded, you didn't. It's not useful, it's not productive. And so President Trump isn't getting drawn into that in unnecessary ways. And as a result, we're closer to peace today than ever before. But fair to say, Russia attacked unprovoked.
- [31:55]
Mika Brzezinski
Into Ukraine three years ago tomorrow.
- [31:56]
Joe Scarborough
Fair to say it's a very complicated situation.
- [31:59]
Eugene Robinson
Can you acknowledge that Russia is the aggressor here?
- [32:04]
Joe Scarborough
Well, you know what? Who would you rather have him go toe to toe with? The likes of Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong Un Xi, or anyone else? Joe Biden or Donald Trump? He's the dealmaker in chief. He's the commander in chief. And it's only because of his strength that we're even in this position. And President Trump's own words have been that Russia invaded a neighbor under Bush, under Obama, and under Biden, but not him. It didn't happen his first term, and he's going to bring it to an end his second term. The war, irrespective of who started it, needs to end. Too many people's lives have been expunged as a result of it, and it just doesn't make sense to the president. He wants to be the peacemaking president. Peace through strength. And I don't blame him. I actually concur right down the line with his thought process around this. That's one, two. The war didn't need to happen. It was provoked. It doesn't necessarily mean it was provoked by the Russians. There were all kinds of conversations back then about Ukraine joining NATO. The president has spoken about this. That didn't need to happen. It basically became a threat to the Russians. And so we have to deal with that fact. And those are real facts on the ground here. I actually was going to say at least that Steve Witkoff's first talking point was actually really what the line for everybody should have been, which is, this is a president who is concerned about peace. But then we go on, and unfortunately, the second part of it suggested that Vladimir Putin was provoked into invading Ukraine. I must say the most surprising, unfortunately, let's just say the most curious, from somebody that talks about a warrior spirit in the military. Hearing our secretary of defense saying, well, there are many complicated questions about who started the war three years ago. It is not complicated. It is not complicated who began the war with their invasion into Ukraine, trying to get to Kiev within three days. It's not complicated. If you read the Wall Street Journal editorial page, it's not complicated. Even if you read the New York Post, Vladimir Putin is the tyrant. Vladimir Putin is the dictator. Vladimir Putin is the invader. According to the New York Post, the Wall Street Journal editorial page, and most Republicans in the United States Senate and House.
- [34:52]
Jonathan Lemire
Yes. I mean, this was sort of an Orwellian display of people saying, night is day, black is white, auditioning to be the Baghdad Bob of the situation. It's quite humiliating for them because they know better. Well, at least Mike Waltz knows better. I don't know much about Steve Witkoff's political views, but I know that Mike Waltz has a very clear, as does Marco Rubio, history of speaking out about Russian aggression. I guess the question is, in what sense does this help reach some kind of a deal on the ground? And the answer is, it doesn't. It just sort of feeds the idea that this is a Russia first, not an America first administration. It stokes Putin's ego. It incentivizes him to play whatever games he wants to play on the battlefield to try and improve his negotiating position. And we've seen an uptick, by the way, of Russian drone attacks on Ukraine. So this doesn't even make sense from a Machiavellian point of view. This doesn't increase their bargaining leverage at the negotiating table. It really is a sorry thing to watch. It's Orwellian. And it diminishes the United States to hear this kind of nonsense.
- [36:22]
Richard Haass
To be frank, Trump officials refusing to say that Russia was the aggressor in this war. Trump officials Refusing to say that Putin is the one who's the dictator, not Zelensky. And Wyckoff, actually an event just a few days prior, said that in his meetings in Moscow, he was working on developing a, quote, friendship with Vladimir Putin. Meanwhile, earlier you heard President Trump mention the US Proposal for Ukraine to give America sweeping access to its valuable minerals, including titanium and lithium. President Zelenskyy rejecting the framework of that plan that would see Kyiv hand over half its resource revenues to a U. S controlled fund until it reaches $500 billion. Zelenskyy, meanwhile, said yesterday that he's willing to resign from his post in exchange for peace in Ukraine or NATO membership if that's what it takes. Joining us now, the former foreign Minister of Ukraine, Dmytro Kubela. He is a senior fellow at the Harvard Belfer Center. Mr. Foreign Minister, thank you so much for joining us this morning. We really appreciate it. Let's start there. There's so much to get to, but let's start there with that deal that President Zelenskyy to this point has said does not work for Kyiv. Tell us more about his objections and is there some sort of middle ground or is the Ukraine government open to some sort of structure there where some foreign of these rare minerals would be exchanged to Washington in exchange for continuing aid?
- [37:46]
Dmytro Kuleba
Good morning. Well, there are two main objective objections coming from Ukraine with regard to the deal. The first one is that in principle, it turns US Assistance that was already delivered to Ukraine in the form of a grant of unconditional support into a loan that Ukraine has to pay back. I mean, this, this change, this would not stand in the, in the US Court for three years. The assistance was provide, and then you all of a sudden are told that this was a loan that you have to pay back. The second problem is that Kyiv does not really see what it gets in return for the deal because the Trump administration is making the point what Ukraine must give to the United States without actually specifying how Ukraine benefits from it. And Zelensky rightly so tries to negotiate the best conditions for the country. This is where we are. But in Princip could be a good deal if it was made in, in an appropriate, responsible way and not under duress, as it is the case now.
- [38:57]
Eugene Robinson
Mr. Culebra, it sounds that one of the appropriate responsible ways might be with some kind of a security guarantee for Ukraine in exchange for those minerals. But President Trump is very keen not to give those. Do you think that Ukraine could rely on Europe to give those kind of security guarantees? Do you Hear from your European partners that they are moving faster and aggressively enough, enough so that they could be in a position to shore up Ukraine's security future.
- [39:26]
Dmytro Kuleba
Let's be clear on definitions here. A security guarantee in the most, in the classic way of understanding it is when someone is ready to fight for you and when, if you are attacked. This is what NATO, for example, is like. No, I do not think there is any single European country that is ready to fight along shoulder to shoulder with Ukrainian soldiers against Russia. But there is plenty of commitment that has emerged that have emerged recently in Europe to significantly step up their support to Ukraine. And Europe can do a lot. It has defense industrial base, it has 300 billion Russian frozen assets, and it has commitment. And most importantly, it finally has the understanding that the United States abandoned Europe. So this is actually an even stronger motivation and motivation for them to act swiftly. The only question is how swift can they be.
- [40:28]
Willie Geist
Former Foreign Minister of Ukraine, Dimitro Culeba, thank you very much for being on the show this morning.
- [40:35]
Joe Scarborough
Greatly appreciate it. And Richard Haass, just final thoughts on Ukraine, the German election and how the Trump administration's handling all of this.
- [40:50]
Ed Luce
Just one specific point first on Ukraine. Missing from the conversation a little bit, Joe, and all this talk about security guarantees is the question of security assurances. I would like to know what the Trump administration is prepared to say to Ukraine about America's willingness to provide arms going forward. That might be actually the most important security assurance we could make. Put aside NATO's, put aside your European troops. Will the United States continue to be, to use a phrase From World War II, the arsenal of democracy here? I don't see that being discussed publicly. And I would think that's important. Taking the larger question you just put on the table, I don't know about you, but I feel this very uncomfortable sense of history unfolding here as we question our support for Ukraine. Ukraine pulled away from the, from Naito and from the Atlantic lines without putting anything in its place. All these overtures, this soft pedaling of relations with Russia, this is a really uncomfortable moment where a lot of the things that I think those of us sitting around the stable took as givens. And by the way, that worked pretty well for 80 years. This has been an extraordinarily successful period of history where for the most part we avoided any sort of conflict, conflict in Europe, we avoided great power conflict altogether. And suddenly some of the basics are being tossed away without anything that I can say, considered or viable being put in its place. I almost feel if you're not worried. Watch watching what's going on. You're not paying attention.
- [42:19]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, I will say exactly right. I will say, though the arc of history, it depends on more than just one branch. Even though the president of the United States of commander, commander in chief has a disproportionate amount of power on where he wants to take foreign policy, we still have, despite what you may have heard on social media outlets are seen on TikTok run by communist Chinese, despite what what you hear out there, we still are a country that has three separate and equal powers. And it depends on whether Republicans are just going to be quiet and grouse and in the cloakroom and sit back and whine and whimper about what's going on at the White House or whether they're going to stand up and continue to support freedom not only for Ukraine, but across all of Europe, across the west and across the world. And if they decide to capitulate, as they have in many ways over the past month, well, then yes, history will bend in the direction of dictators like communist Chinese is Xi and like a former KGB agent, Vladimir Putin. That's their choice. Let's hope they choose wisely.
- [43:39]
Willie Geist
Richard Haass, thank you very much. And U.S. national Editor at the Financial Times, Ed Luce, thank you as well. Your latest piece from the editorial board entitled America has Turned on Its Friends is available online right now, the Financial Times. Coming up, Elon Musk tells federal employees to explain what they did last week or resign. But that ultimatum is facing pushback from some of President Trump's top administration officials. Also ahead, Democrats with an eye on the White House in 2028 are divided on how to confront Donald Trump. We'll get to that new reporting straight ahead on MORNING Joe.
- [44:40]
Joe Scarborough
And those clips.
- [44:41]
Willie Geist
Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. At 10 minutes before the top of the hour, staff member at the Kennedy center say ticket sales dropped by roughly 50% after President Trump announced his plans to take over the institution. Trump put Rick Grinnell in charge who promised to, quote, make art great again. Now performers are weighing their options, with some considering canceling performances, while others plan to still take to the stage in the face of resistance. Warren Buffett offered some advice to Washington in his annual letter to shareholders. The Berkshire Hathaway CEO cautioned lawmakers to spend money wisely and to take care of those who get the short straws in life. The 94 year old noted his companies paid more in corporate income tax than even the American tech title billions. Berkshire now holds more than $330 billion in cash after selling off much of its Apple and Bank of America stock.
- [45:48]
Joe Scarborough
He's in cash right now. Past year, he's gone very conservative. He did it right before the tech. The dot com bubble.
- [45:55]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah.
- [45:56]
Joe Scarborough
And was criticized until, of course, the bubble burst. He was right then, and many fear that he's right now to be hoarding cash and staying out of the market.
- [46:06]
Willie Geist
And the cost of coffee is soaring around the world. By some measures, the global price has more than doubled over the past year. Climate change has disrupted production from the Americas to East Africa. With rising temperatures and changing rain patterns. Retail coffee prices are expected to rise in a pronounced way during the first quarter of this year.