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Morning Joe
Morning Joe 2/7/25
00:53:30
USAID to be reduced to about 290 foreign service officers and civil servants
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- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
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- [00:14]
Mika Brzezinski
Usaa.
- [00:15]
Jonathan Lemire
Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make.
- [00:25]
John Heilman
Office hours feel like happy hour, the.
- [00:28]
Jonathan Lemire
Boots that turn grocery aisles into runways, and all the st show off the.
- [00:33]
John Heilman
Many sides of you from daydreamer to.
- [00:35]
Jonathan Lemire
Multitasker and everything in between because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or dsw.com.
- [00:47]
Joe Scarborough
Because here in America, we are once again a nation that believes in ourselves. We believe in our destiny and trusts in the providence of Almighty God. And I can tell you the opposite side. The opposing side. And they oppose religion. They oppose God. They've lost their confidence. They've lost their confidence as a different group of people than I remember. As the Bible says, blessed are the peacemakers. And in that end, I hope my greatest legacy, when it's all finished, will be known as a peacemaker and a unifier. I hope that's going to be true.
- [01:25]
Jonathan Lemire
All right. President Trump there with his unique style as unifier in chief yesterday at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington. It comes as his administration continues to create chaos within the federal government. We're going to go through the plans to make massive cuts to the US Aid workforce and how the layoffs could impact lifesaving aid to people around the world, as well as our own foreign policy. Plus, we'll have an update on the major legal fights over his executive orders, as well as the legally murky federal buyout offer to federal employees. We'll also have a preview of the big game in the big easy super bowl 59. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. Anybody glad it's Friday Here, here. Not even noticing. It's just like any other day. February 7th. With us, we have the co host of the Fourth Hour, Jonathan Lemire. He's a contributing writer at the Atlantic covering the White House and national politics. NBC News national affairs analyst and partner and chief political columnist at Puck, John Heilman, who I welcomed so gracefully this.
- [02:34]
Adrienne Elrod
Morning, graciously, generously, as sweetly as ever.
- [02:38]
Jonathan Lemire
It was so nice to see you approach the set.
- [02:40]
Adrienne Elrod
Not so great.
- [02:41]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah. Former senior spokesperson and advisor for the Harris campaign, Adrienne Elrod is here, the host of Way Too Early, Alec Vitale, probably the happiest that it's Friday. And staff writer at the Atlantic, Frank Foer is with us. So, Joe, we got a lot to get to this morning after a pretty jam packed week here on Morning joe.
- [03:02]
Joe Scarborough
Well, let me just say I'm sad that it's Friday. I wish it were Monday and we could do this all over again. Me, too, because there's just never enough time with our friends that watch, never enough story time to tell all this story. So I'm going to be sad, but I'm going to cling to the realization that, you know, this all starts again on Monday. Four hours a day, five days a week, I will have my stopwatch. And I just, as you know, I stare at it all weekend. And it's like a countdown until the Monday show. I will say we are to be here.
- [03:41]
Jonathan Lemire
We are.
- [03:42]
Joe Scarborough
It is always fascinating to see Donald Trump at these prayer breakfasts because you never, it's like a box of chocolate. You never know exactly what you're going to get.
- [03:54]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah.
- [03:55]
Joe Scarborough
And so you had these calls for unity and you also had these suggestions that Democrats were godless heathens that had lost their way. And of course, the suggestion that now suddenly over the past couple weeks, America has become a great country again. As I said all along, America is a great country. We are.
- [04:17]
Adrienne Elrod
We are.
- [04:18]
Joe Scarborough
We are a wonderful country. We have been a wonderful country and we will remain a wonderful country despite a lot of the nonsense that goes on in Washington, D.C. but it is interesting and it does need to be brought up that Nancy Pelosi, even when Donald Trump was deriding her personally, attacking her personally, even when he mocked and ridiculed Nancy Pelosi's husband being brutalized within inches of his death, she still talked about praying for Donald Trump. And it was a concept he didn't understand. It's a concept that actually Jesus talks about in the Sermon on the Mount. I'm only bringing this up. It's not preaching. This is just reporting on if you're going to the prayer breakfast and you're saying Democrats are godless heathen and you don't even understand that Jesus is one of the first things that we learn in Matthew on the Sermon on the Mount is that you pray for your enemies, you pray for those who want to persecute you. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall be shown mercy. When you're asked to forgive, you're asked to forgive 70 times 7. That's like the perfect number. So that lies at the heart of Jesus ministry. And so I just remember when Nancy Pelosi talked about, when Nancy Pelosi talked about praying for Donald Trump, he said, oh, that's nobody, nobody believes that. How could you? How could you ever do that? He's also a man who has said that he's never had to ask God for forgiveness either. So, again, what one does at the prayer conference when prayer breakfast when one is president of the United States, obviously is up to them. I would say, though, just a recommendation. If you're trying to bring the country together, you can pass on the whole Democrats are godless Marxists, because, yeah, maybe, maybe the most intense of the base believe it, but it's kind of hard to spread that message. At the same time, you're destroying pepfar. At the same time, you're destroying all these other aid efforts that were actually inspired by religious organizations and presidents belief in Jesus Christ and the need that we needed to help the poorest among us. And so interesting time to be delivering that message. Let's hope again a page is turned. Hope springs eternal. Let us hope that the two sides can figure out how to get along. And that starts by one side not calling the other side godless heathens. Just a suggestion. Just a suggestion. That may not be the best way forward.
- [07:26]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah. And speaking of helping the poorest among us, our top story this morning, the Trump administration plans to cut the number of USAID workers from more than 10,000 to just 292. Sources with the plans say familiar with the plans. The remaining staff includes employees who specialize in health and humanitarian assistance. The agency is pushing the State Department for less severe cuts and have submitted a much longer list of staff that they deem essential. But reports say most of the contractors have already been fired or furloughed and that the 290 that will remain are among the more than 5,000 foreign service officers, civil servants and contractors still employed. Under the plan, just 12 people would be dedicated to serve the continent of Africa and eight people for all of Asia. And 600 employees dedicated to Europe will be cut to just 10 people. Secretary of State Marco Rubio said yesterday the actions were not meant to be disruptive, but were, quote, the only way we've been able to get cooperation from usaid. Okay. Meanwhile, unions representing foreign service officers and federal employees at USAID D are suing the Trump administration in an effort to stop the dismantling of the agency. The suit is filed against President Trump, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Secretary of the Treasury Scott Besant, USAID the State Department and the Department of Treasury and seeks an injunctive relief to stop the effort to close the agency down and restore its system. It goes on to allege the group is responsible for causing a global humanitarian cris and costing thousands of American jobs, and argues only Congress can dissolve the agency. So, Joe, let's stop right there, because there's a lot going on, including Elon Musk's involvement and this process that the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, said there was no other way to do. It seems to me there are lawful ways to do this as opposed to how it's happening.
- [09:49]
Joe Scarborough
And that's a question, and it's a question for all of the Doge projects, because I think, let me just say at the outset, as a small government conservative and somebody who actually helped lead the fight with about a dozen of my classmates, we balance a budget four years in a row, and we did that. It's the only time it's happened in 100 years. It's the only time it's happened in a century. We did it four years in a row. There's nothing easy about it. There's government waste out there involved, but we did it constitutionally, we did it legally. It's hard. It's just a very difficult thing to do. And so the question is not whether they're going to find waste, fraud and abuse in the government. Of course they're going to find waste, fraud and abuse in the government. And this is something they should do. But they need to do it legally and they need to do it transparently. There's no transparency here that I can, that I can see. I mean, I think there are people inside the White House that I've spoken to that are still sort of guessing and curious exactly about what's happening and the speed these changes are taking place. With really no organization, with no game plan, it's extraordinarily dangerous. These, these governmental systems opened up and opened up in a way that will allow China, allow Russia, allow Iran, allow our foreign adversaries to possibly gain access, access to these systems. Big after layer after layer after layer of security could just be gutted. That's one thing I want to say another thing, though, and I find it a curious John Heilman, I find it a curious argument that some Democrats are making, which is, let's not fight about this. You know, it's foreign aid. Foreign aid is not popular. Let's, let's talk about eggs. Or let's say, no, this is a fight that I don't care what polls say right now, if it's a 50, 50 split, I still have confidence in the American people that they don't want children to die in Sudan, they don't want them to starve to death in Sudan. And they don't want malaria spreading all over Africa. They don't want these diseases spreading all over the world. They don't want George W. Bush's PEPFAR project, which has saved 25 million lives so far across the world. They don't want those stopped at the end of the day, if Democrats will actually explain that to them. And this whole idea that, oh, we don't have the money to provide grain to young children who were starving in Africa or across the world, in Sudan or across the world, I mean, one fighter jet here buys a hell of a lot of life saving aid and a lot of prevention for diseases that would spread across the globe. And on top of that, as far as a bang for your buck goes, if you look at not only the goodwill that the United States gets out of these programs, but the intel that we gain, let's just be cynical about this. If nobody gives a damn about the morality, the intel that we gain about Al Qaeda's actions in Africa, ISIS's actions in Africa, what China is doing to try to elbow us out for minerals and precious resources in Africa, if we look at what Russia is constantly trying to do to undermine our position, what Iran's trying to do, man, this is just a great value. It is a great value that we saw after World War II. We see time and time again hearts and minds are changed and the United States power grows exponentially. What is right actually leads to might in many, many ways. This is a strategically smart thing to do moving forward with this program. Cut the waste, fraud and abuse. But God, if you're a Democrat, why not defend it?
- [14:17]
Adrienne Elrod
Well, I think, Joe, I have heard some of the consultants who've made this argument that, you know, for a, is a political loser. I think it's fair to say that if you were to look at polling over the course of the past not few years, but few decades, that they're not wrong, that foreign aid is not, is traditionally thought of as a liberal humanitarian concern. It's not framed the way you described it. It's not been defended in the way you defend it. And USAID in particular has not been put in that context. That's an argument worth making. Maybe. But I understand the kind of reflexive desire of some consultants to say, this is a loser. Donald Trump's going to enjoy this. Fight. We need to move on to a bigger fight. I am with you on the substance of it. I'm also with you on the politics of it. If it's recast in a different way. I think if you're going to try to fight this fight program by program, making the arguments for is this spending or that department or this level of cuts, that is also in a lot of cases, you know, the things that Elon Musk and his team are focusing on are things that traditionally have been hard to defend, that have not been obvious winners for Democrats. I think the notion of making an argument about an unelected plutocrat and his group of toadies and henchmen with their zip drives, staging a digital coup in a lot of cases, rolling into agencies with no authorization. No one you talked about transparency before. I say with no accountability. Yeah. The Doge is acting in a lawless way to go to target given programs of all kinds and kind of in the dead of night over weekends accessing computer systems and making determinations that the Congress hasn't voted on, that no one has authorized, that no one has debated beforehand that all of these, that argument that Democrats are now starting to glom onto, which is this is this is a usurpation of the democratic process, this is breaking the government. This is a coup in all. But without the Kalashnikovs that those kinds of arguments to fold USAID under that blanket, under that larger argument and sort of say, wait, wait, stop, what's going on here? Who gave you, Elon Musk, the right to shut down anything? You are unelected and you are unconfirmed. You are unvetted. Where does your authority derive? I think Democrats are starting to see that as a powerful political argument. And rather than fighting program by program, you need to fight this larger fight and you need to fight it right now.
- [17:04]
Jonathan Lemire
Frank Ford's writing more about the Doge part of this. And I think the bigger thing politically, Adrienne L. Rod is that there's something in this catastrophe for everybody. I don't think you need to focus on just one aspect of it because listen, Donald Trump taps into this America first attitude. And I've even heard heard Republicans and those representing the White House saying, you know, there are people suffering from the fires, there are people suffering in North Carolina from, you know, the catastrophes there. Why should that be money be spent abroad when we are suffering? Americans want what they can get. And there is a very me first attitude out there.
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Frank Foer
Yep.
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Jonathan Lemire
That Trump taps into it. So I do think it's important to mention the part and to focus on the fact that we're handing off vital resources, that we're handing off vital, vital secrets and making a void where Russia and China can step in making our country less safer. Because I do think also Republicans and followers of Donald Trump are very much into national security and this is not good for our national security.
- [18:16]
Frank Foer
That's exactly right, Miguel. I mean, look, first of all, it should come as no surprise to me that USAID is one of the first programs that are the first agencies that Trump went after for the very reasons that you just laid out that a lot of Americans are seeing this as, you know, you're taking my taxpayer dollars, you're taking my hard earned money and you're focusing on foreign aid as opposed to my own, you know, necessarily, you know.
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Jonathan Lemire
Exactly true. But that's, that, that's the equation, which.
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Frank Foer
Is exactly why Democrats and anybody, by the way, who opposes dismantling USAID has got to do, we've got to do a better job of telling the story to your point, talking about how soft diplomacy, talking about how giving people foreign aid to foreign countries is going to actually keep America safer. It's something that we Democrats just, we got to do a better job of doing that. So, you know, going out there, instead of some of these members of Congress going out and yelling we will win at a press conference, we actually need these members to go out to their social media channels. We need real everyday people going out to their communities and talking about how these programs actually help keep America safe, how they help American families. That is just the bottom line. Because again, if you're the average American, you're looking at this and saying, I wanted the system to be shaken up. I wanted government blow to go down. The first place I'm going to go to or that Trump should go to is usaid. So we just got to do a better job at telling the story.
- [19:36]
Mike Barnacle
You're referring of course, to Chuck Schumer's news conference earlier this week. A few real world implications here. Cutting USAID that are collected here. Anti trafficking work in Latin America has already taken a hit. Clinical trials funded by US Aid, medical experiments have been stopped. The New York Times has a great story and depressed a terrible story on this today. Midstream people, some people have medical devices still in their bodies. Because the trials were abruptly stopped, we have damaged the funding. USAID helped fund Ukraine's energy system. That's obviously a boon to Vladimir Putin if that goes away, as well as billions of dollars here for the US Economy. The Washington Post reports on how some American farmers would have contracts with usaid. That's now gone away. That's hurting the American pocketbook here at home. And we should also note of course that Elon Musk, who's in charge of all this, is the leader in spreading misinformation, disinformation, outright lying on his X account. And that for about, let's say, the condoms in Gaza for instance. And that's been amplified by right wing media. So Frank, your latest piece of the Atlantic delves into all of this, particularly focusing on Musk. It's got this headline, the Dictatorship of the Engineer. You write in part this given American conservatives recent rhetoric, their surrender to Musk's vision of utopia is discordant, to say the least. Ever since the pandemic, the MAGA movement has decried the tyranny of a cabal of self, certain experts who wield their technical knowledge unaccountably. But even as the right purports to loathe technocracy, it has empowered to make engineer a radically, to radically remake the American state in the name efficiency. You go on to write, he has casually paused global aid programs that alleviate suffering. He has moved to destroy bureaucrats careers without concern for the rippling personal consequences. To a brain as rational as Musk's, democracy is waste and inefficiency. The best system is the one bursting forth from his mind. And frankly, tell us more about this. To the point earlier, no one voted for Elon Musk. Elon Musk has not appeared before a Senate hearing. He has not been security checked. His background? White House officials say he has received some sort of security clearance, but very vague as to what or what sort of background check went into that. And yet he is right now arguably just as powerful as Donald Trump in terms of reshaping and slashing the federal bureaucracy.
- [22:09]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, perhaps doing more than any single individual, elected or unelected, to transform the American state in a short period of time. And the thing about USAID is that it is just a beachhead. It is just the landing crew. And so what's happening at USAID is of course being replicated across the entirety of the federal government. And I think for people who style themselves as conservatives to see the way in which true conservatives see the way in which change is rippling through systems, institutions are being shattered no matter what value those institutions bring. And it's just the rat radicalism and the arrogance and the way in which these guys who know nothing about government, these are people. And this is the Musk method. As an engineer, he believes that because he is such a genius, he can descend on any system and because of his great mind, he can find a way to remake that system so that it works better. He doesn't actually understand the system, he understands the process. So he steps in and his approach is always this caricature of the Silicon Valley approach of moving fast and breaking things. And part of that is about lawlessness. And so he's always just pushed beyond whatever the regulations are, whatever the laws are. And of course, in this instance, he's in a context where he knows that whatever he does and breaks the law in the course of causing a constitutional crisis, he'll get a pardon at the end of the day because that's the way the Trump world works.
- [23:44]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. You know, before the election, I quoted Edmund Burke, who of course is the founder of conservatism, time and again. And Burke wrote in reflecting on the revolution in France, that institutions on which countries were established, protected and sustained, institutions that had been built over centuries by compromise and consensus, could be torn down in a day by radicals. And I just. Ali, I know in Washington there is just a fear right now that not, not the government waste will be be found out. I think that's a winner on both sides. But you have somebody running through the federal government basically being given free rein to go into whatever computer systems he wants to go into that doesn't understand the basics of American government, consensus, Madisonian democracy, that it's just that again, as Frank said, that and all of that consensus, all of that compromise, all of those things that sustained us for 240 years, well, that just gets in the way of what he wants to do today.
- [25:18]
John Heilman
But Frank makes the great point that we've made here and you've made here, Joe. This idea that Elon Musk is being given carte blanche to rip things out of the government root and stem. And yes, these institutions are unpopular. If you want to bring it back to polling. And the way that Democrats are thinking about how to mount a defense of what's happening here, here, the institutions might be unpopular, but the more that you remind the American public what these institutions actually do, they are not faceless entities. They are not just big stone buildings. They are people who are employed by the government to help, whether it's within USAID or within any of these other government agencies that Musk is infiltrating and then trying to tear up from the inside. Those reminders are crucial. And so it's right that Adrian says Democrats, Democrats have the incumbency upon them to point out to their constituents on a one to one level what the impact is going to be, but then also to amplify the way that those constituents could be losing services that they rely on because they are just blanket slashing pieces of federal aid across all of these different agencies. I do think there's also a point, though, when it comes to Musk. There was some reporting moved yesterday that internal polling within one of the House Democratic campaign arms shows Musk himself is actually very unpopular across battleground districts, districts. And so I know that there's a desire to play the long game and focus on the midterms and turning the House back to being Democratic controlled. Yeah, that's a long goal. But in the short term, there is a political upside to focusing on Musk because he himself is not a popular figure. I think this internal polling had him at 51% across battleground states. That poll was even done before a lot of the actions that he's taken and rightly been given credit for as he's come into these federal agencies. So there is a focus there on I've heard, as we all have heard, the consternation around making USAID a focus, but I think Democrats have an opportunity to assume the national security mantle and remind people why these institutions are in place in the first place.
- [27:27]
Jonathan Lemire
Coming up on Morning joe. Pam Bondi was just sworn in as attorney general on Wednesday and already she's moving quickly to shift the nation's law enforcement resources to other priorities. We'll detail the major changes that she is laying out for the Justice Department. Also ahead, since President Trump took office, there has been news of mass immigration arrests across the country, but have they been as sweeping as the administration claims? We'll have a fact check ahead on MORNING Joe. We're back in 90 seconds.
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Joe Scarborough
Foreign.
- [28:08]
John Heilman
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Joe Scarborough
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Mike Barnacle
Happen to be the perfect price.
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Joe Scarborough
Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store and dsw.com.
- [29:58]
Jonathan Lemire
Welcome back to Morning Joe, just about half past the hour. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. Possible meeting between President Trump and Vladimir Putin is at an advanced stage of planning. That's according to a Russian lawmaker who serves as the chairman of Russia's foreign relations committee. Russia's war on Ukraine will hit the three year mark on February 24 and would be the focus of any potential meeting. Real quick, Jonathan Lemire, Totally different approach.
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Mike Barnacle
Than President Biden of course. Wouldn't even speak to Putin once the war started. There's some thought that a Middle east country might be the venue for this summit, but it's still not settled yet, but we should expect it at some point this year.
- [30:39]
Jonathan Lemire
We'll be watching that. Former Vice President Kamala Harris toured fire damage in Southern California yesterday. She met with local officials in Pacific Palisades and visited a recreation center that served as an emergency shelter. Harris, who has kept a low profile since leaving office, was asked about a potential run for governor and she didn't rule it out. I have been home for two weeks and three days. My plans are to be in touch with my community, to be in touch with the leaders and figure out what I can do to support them and most importantly, to lift up the folks who are surviving this extraordinary crisis and.
- [31:19]
Joe Scarborough
Do what I can do to offer.
- [31:22]
Jonathan Lemire
Any assistance, even if it is a kind word along the way. We'll follow that. And Australia has passed tough new crime laws that includes mandatory minimum sentences for displaying hate symbols. It's an effort to crack down on a recent surge in anti Semitism. The laws will impose jail Sentences for giving a Nazi salute in public and for threatening force or violence against people based on race, religion, nationality, political opinion or identity, among other things. Back to politics now. Here in the US newly sworn in Attorney General Pam Bondi is moving quickly to redirect the nation's law enforcement resources, as the Washington Post reports, from reinstating the federal death penalty to ordering investigations of sanctuary cities and those who prosecuted Donald Trump. Bondi spent her first few hours in office issuing marching orders for Justice Department staff that marked a significant shift in priorities. Among other things, she disbanded teams focused on investigating foreign influence campaigns, foreign lobbying, and national security threats posed by corporate malfeasance. Bondi also instructed a unit tasked with investigating cases involving bribery of foreign officials to refocus its efforts on investigation involving bribes to facilitate human smuggling and the trafficking of narcotics and firearms. Similarly, she ordered a scaling back of foreign lobbying investigations to instances of alleged conduct similar to more traditional espionage by foreign governments. Lemaire, break that all down.
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Mike Barnacle
Yeah, I mean, it's a dramatic shifting of priorities here. We, we know that in her first hours converged in the Post, she is authorizing these investigations of the investigators, the January 6th probes and the like, including.
- [33:21]
Jonathan Lemire
Those she said she was not going to be.
- [33:24]
Mike Barnacle
Yeah, she, she, in her confirmation hearing made a point of trying to be above that, that she would not do it. And she has at least these early days, signaled that she indeed will go the opposite direction. We're also waiting, of course, for FBI Director Kash Patel to receive his hearing, but that could be another week or two. Democrats have managed to delay that process some, but it's raised real alarm bells here, including on counterterrorism operations, at a time when we know how dangerous the world has been. There's some speculation we talked about on this show that even President Trump's musing about taking over Gaza. And then I know they've walked that back some, but even putting it out there has real consequences and could incite violence and terrorism. Mika. And just at the same time when the FBI says, well, we're gonna be less focused on that.
- [34:06]
Jonathan Lemire
All right, the Cash Patel hearing is next Thursday. I believe we'll be watching for that. For a second day in a row, a federal judge has blocked President Trump's executive order attempting to limit birthright citizenship. A US Judge issued a nationwide injunction on the order yesterday after calling it blatantly unconstitutional during a preliminary hearing a couple weeks ago. The judge slammed Trump in court yesterday, saying in part, quote, it has become ever more apparent that to our president, the Rule of law is but an impediment to his policy goals. The rule of law is, according to him, something to navigate around or simply ignore, whether that be for political or personal gain. This latest injunction comes after a federal judge in Maryland issued a nationwide hold order on Wednesday. The executive order faces even more legal challenges, with the hearing set for later today in Massachusetts and another hearing on Monday in New Hampshire in a challenge bought by the aclu. I mean, John Hallman tried to stay, like, right where the story is, but a lot of folks when they first heard this, thought never going to happen.
- [35:22]
Adrienne Elrod
Thought that the Trump team would, this.
- [35:25]
Jonathan Lemire
Would happen, that the birthright citizenship and we get rejected.
- [35:28]
Adrienne Elrod
Yes, yes, I think. Well, I mean, there's an awful lot of stuff going on in the Trump administration that is if you talk to lawyers who are not particularly ideological, just looking black letter lawyers, looking at things like these are not going to be hard cases in a sense, on the merits that they're in this case, plain layers of the Constitution is pretty clear about birthright citizenship, that you have to be pretty extreme to try to find a way to interpret the Constitution along the way that the Trump administration has. There's a lot of instances like this and where these are what lawyers think of as easy cases. And that has given some people a lot of hope that in the end, the courts will be the guardrail that keeps a lot of the worst exercises of the Trump second Trump term from coming to pass. We've seen this on other fronts, too. We've seen the courts have now intervened to stop the, to get in the way of this potential spending freeze. There's issue after issue where courts are ruling against Trump already, and we're not even three weeks in. You know, the question it raises for me is as these cases and many of them progress to the progress to the Supreme Court, is at what point does a case occur in which the Trump administration loses on something that they really care about and they decide to test the court's ability to enforce its decision, which is to say the Supreme Court has ruled against us. All the lower courts have ruled against us. The Supreme Court has ruled against us. John Roberts, you and what army are going to enforce it? We're going to do what we want anyway.
- [36:58]
Jonathan Lemire
Right.
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Adrienne Elrod
And that is the place where I think a lot of people who are looking down the line of where does the constitutional crisis really come? It comes in the moment when the executive branch decides to defy the highest order of the judicial branch. Everyone in law, in the constitutional law arena right now is trying to figure out when that clash is going to come. Most people assume it is going to come at some point. The question is going to be when.
- [37:21]
Jonathan Lemire
And Joe, I don't see anything that he's doing here that he didn't campaign on. I mean, the comments on Gaza seemed kind of to be a surprise. And yet no protests across the country. I'm conf. Where did. I'm looking for them, but I don't see them.
- [37:36]
Joe Scarborough
You mean the campus protests?
- [37:38]
Jonathan Lemire
Sorry.
- [37:39]
Joe Scarborough
It's oddly quiet. It's oddly quiet, yeah. I'm not hearing people running around screaming genocide, Joe. Or holding up schools, attacking Dearborn, Michigan, which is so deeply offended by Joe Biden's policy in the Middle East. And yet silence, just silence. Isn't it something. We'll let others try to figure that out. Frank 4 We'll see if that constitutional crisis comes. I will say if that constitutional crisis does come and he says to John Roberts, you and what army? That would be a constitutional crisis of the first order. So we won't presume that that's going to happen, though it could. Let's instead, though, get back to where we are right now. I've heard from a lot of people inside of Washington, attorneys, heard from people on the Hill. Their feeling is that right now Donald Trump is just flooding the zone and you know, yeah, we'll throw out birthright citizenship. We'll do, you know, we'll defund agencies that Congress has authorized with. We're going to throw everything at the wall and just try to overwhelm our opponents, just try to overwhelm the courts and just again, test the boundaries of executive power, which is, as Mika said, exactly what Donald Trump said he was going to do on the presidential campaign, along with people like Ron DeSantis, who also said they were going to try to expand the Article 2 powers as much as he could.
- [39:31]
Mike Barnacle
Right.
- [39:31]
Mika Brzezinski
I mean, I'm just thinking synthesizing everything that's been said in the last minute or two, that we have an oligarchy within, within the White House, essentially this musk clique that's reshaping government in order to wake the world, in part safer for more oligarchy by peeling back all of these laws that enforce foreign agent registration and that try to curb Russian oligarchs in the life. Meanwhile, as you just pointed out, civil society is largely quiescent or quiet in the face of all of this. That, that the protesters who shut down cities and campuses because of a war that was happening on the other side of the world haven't been able to muster the energy to come out in the streets in order to prevent all of these steps that are on the road to wrecking our institutions and our system.
- [40:28]
Joe Scarborough
And at the beginning, Ben Frank, let's again, let's be clear here. Yeah. They were calling Joe Biden genocide. Joe. They shut down bridges, they shut down college campuses. They made Jewish students fear going to school because Joe Biden couldn't get Benjamin Netanyahu to agree to a ceasefire. You now have a president who says, we're going to clear all Palestinians out of Gaza and silence.
- [41:05]
Mika Brzezinski
Even weirder to me is that he's mounted this war on DEI that I think will directly affect the life paths of a lot of the people who protested last year. And that, to me, is the strangest thing, that the decisions that are being made right now within this government, within this White House, are creating cultural context that will ripple through the lives of college students, ripple through the lives of people within civil society who have the capacity to go out and protest. And in part maybe because there is this atmosphere of fear, you know, in the country at large, you especially see it all the time here in Washington. You see it in the attacks that he. He's mounting on Politico. I mean, these are things that are done not just to foment conspiracy theories that will titillate the base. They're done in order to intimidate people. And maybe we have to say, in the end, the intimidation is at least in part working. And people just don't seem to grasp the magnitude of what's occurring. And it's strange.
- [42:20]
Jonathan Lemire
No, it is strange, since they grasp. Grasped it so much during the Biden administration. Adrian, I'm just curious that there's this national movement called the Uncommitted National Movement. Their spokesperson shared a statement in response to Trump's comments about Gaza. Feel sad, angry, scared for our communities. For months, we warned about the dangers of Trump at home and abroad, but our calls went largely unheard. Kamala Harris left a vacuum by not visiting Michigan. Families impacted by US Supplied bombs to help create a permission structure for their trust while Trump visited Dearborn. Trump's legal calls for ethnic cleansing are horrific. But as on so many other issues, Democrats had a chance to persuade voters they were the better alternative. And they blew it. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, you need the voter to actually be interested. And I. I don't understand what's going on here, because people have eyes, they have ears, they can see what's happening. And I'm not sure they didn't make a stand, by the way, on a choice.
- [43:27]
Frank Foer
That's correct. Absolutely. And look, when you look at, as Joe mentioned, Dearborn, Michigan, which I believe went 80, 20 for Biden in 20 and went 20, 80 for Harrison in 24. I mean, look, she spent a lot of time in Michigan. She spent a lot of time talking to these very voters. We had surrogates going in there talking to these voters. So it's not like there was not an attempt to go have these conversations.
- [43:49]
Jonathan Lemire
They could take a look at what she says versus what he hasn't. They could have made a stand.
- [43:54]
Frank Foer
They could have made a stand. So I don't have a lot of sympathy, frankly. I think a lot of us don't have a lot of sympathy. And also when it comes to the college campuses, I mean, that was something that was a persistent issue that a lot of us saw and a lot of us experienced and a lot of students, Jewish students, had to endure in the fact that we don't see the protesters. Silence when, silence when Trump is literally saying the US Is going to take over Gaza and where are the protests? Where are the voices? It's a, it's a concern.
- [44:23]
Jonathan Lemire
Former senior spokesperson for the an advisor for the Harris campaign, Adrianna Elrod, Always good to see you. Thank you very much for coming on. Staff writer at the Atlantic. Frank for thank you as well. His latest piece is available to read online right now. And coming up, we are counting down to Super Bowl Sunday. Pablo Torre joins us for a preview of the big game. Morning, Joe. We'll be right back.
- [45:06]
John Heilman
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Joe Scarborough
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Joe Scarborough
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- [45:37]
Jonathan Lemire
Where'd you get those shoes? Easy. They're from dsw. Because DSW has the exact right shoes for whatever you're into right now. You know, like the sneakers that make.
- [45:47]
John Heilman
Office hours feel like happy hour, the.
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Jonathan Lemire
Boots that turn grocery aisles into runways and all the styles that show off.
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John Heilman
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Jonathan Lemire
To multitasker and everything in between because you do it all in really great shoes. Find a shoe for every you at your DSW store or DSW.com it is an honor to be hosting this because I've been a football fan for a long, long time. I mean, I remember back when the Cowboys was good. I remember back when the Chiefs was bad. And I remember.
- [46:28]
Mike Barnacle
What was it?
- [46:30]
Jonathan Lemire
Bill Belichick's girlfriend wasn't even born yet.
- [46:35]
Joe Scarborough
Oh my gosh. Okay, that was New Dog in his opening monologue the NFL Honors last night, talking about the 48 year age gap between eight time Super bowl winning coach Bill Belichick and his 24 year old girlfriend, Jordan Hudson. Let's bring in right now the host of Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Art Media, who tells anyone who will listen that his girlfriend has yet to be born. Yet. We speak, of course of MSNBC contributor Pablo Torrey. Also MSNBC contributor Mike Barnacle. Happily married with allowance and he is swell and with us right now. Pablo, of course, that's not right. Yes.
- [47:22]
Pablo Torre
My wife is away.
- [47:23]
Jonathan Lemire
Background.
- [47:24]
Joe Scarborough
Let me just say, Pablo, of course, this is super bowl weekend. Everybody's asking, where's Pablo? It's in New Orleans. This is where Super Bowls have always. I think, I think the first super bowl may have been in New Orleans. So where else would Pablo Torrey be? Except for. That's right, Miami, Florida. Yeah. So I hope you're enjoying Miami, but what is the view? What, what is the view from.
- [47:52]
Pablo Torre
Okay, Pablo, so two, two views from South Beach. Number one, I'm here reporting, of course, on Pat Riley, who happens to own the copyright on the term 3 Pete. Which leads me to my second view, which is that the Chief Chiefs are on the road to fulfilling a prediction I made for you on this program. What feels like a million years ago. But the view here is that the Kansas City Chiefs. I could give you the poetry, I can give you the argument that the Philadelphia Eagles, of course, are the toughest team Mahomes has faced in his run. That's true. They have a rushing attack led by Saquon Barkley that is unbelievable. Parkley might have the best season for a running back of all time that he just accomplished. And yet I say to you, are our memories really that short? The three peat to me feels inevitable. And I just want all of us to brace for a world in which we will have a quarterback in Mahomes who will have done something that no one has ever done in the sport. That's the view from here.
- [48:52]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. You know, last year I thought it was, I thought it was an incredible matchup. It's between the 49ers, who had an extraordinary team against Patrick Mahomes. And I kept going back and forth trying to figure it out. Jack and I were talking about it, finally just said you got to bet on Mahomes because that guy always wins in the crunch. I heard a stat a couple weeks ago, just absolutely unbelievable. They took the quarterbacks who had been in the most, most pressurized situations with like two minutes left to go in a playoff game where they had either get a field goal or a touchdown to win. And you know, they had all the greats. Brady was like what, four for eight and, and I don't know who else, Elway was three for six, whatever. And they all were about 50%, which was incredible. Patrick Mahomes got the ball in his hands with 7 minute 7 times with 2 minutes left in a playoff situation. His efficiency in winning the game for the Chiefs in those situations, seven for seven. There has never been a quarterback, and this hurts me to say because I love Joe Montana so much, but there has never been a quarterback that wins the big game like Mahomes because he's just never lost.
- [50:17]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, well, this is the thing. It's funny you surround us today with Mike Barnacle, John Lemire, guys who know the counter argument to that argument because Tom Brady is out there, he's, look, I, I, it's, well. But when it comes to who has actually failed yet, Mahomes is off to a start that we've never seen in terms of his career. He only makes AFC title games in Super Bowls, he's won two in a row. And the even crazier stat from this season alone is that they have won the Chiefs 15 straight one score games. So I'm just saying, like, I expect this to be close because Eagles are good. And if it's close, there is a body of evidence that it just happens to suggest that maybe Tom Brady, when it's all said and done, will not be the most clutch quarterback in the history. That's right. I heard that grown, but it's correct.
- [51:06]
Joe Scarborough
Well, it's just, it's just in the numbers. And you know what's so fascinating about it, Jonathan O'Mear. Over the past couple years, the Chiefs haven't had great seasons. Of course, they had a great record this year, but they'd win by blocking a field goal in the last second. They'd win one way after the other. You know, whatever they did, they just figured out a way to win. And last year they had an even more mediocre season, the first half of the season they just didn't look impressive at all. And yet they always figured out a way to win. I think the Niners were a better team top to bottom last year than the Chiefs. Still thought the Chiefs were going to win this year. I think the Eagles, you take their running game, you take, you take their defense, you take their offensive line, you put everything together. I think the Eagles are a better team than the Chiefs. But who's going to bet against Patrick Mahomes in a close game?
- [51:59]
Mike Barnacle
Yeah, it's a difficult proposition. I mean the Chiefs, a mixture of magic, luck and skill. And also they're just so battle tested. They have been there so many times. They have a stunning record. I believe it's 15 straight wins in one score games. That's unheard of. And yes, it's Mahomes, it's Andy Reed who we shouldn't overlook here who always schemes up a great game. It's also of course terrific defense. That's the real thing for the Chiefs this last year or two is how good their defense, in some ways better than their offense and has kept them in these games. But Pablo, let's make the case for the Eagles. If you were going to do that and I'm hoping that they win. I'm out there on record with that. I agree with Joe. They're more talented than the Chiefs. Their defensive line, terrific secondary, very good. Jalen Hurts had a kind of up and down year but has come on strong. They've got two good receivers, they've got Saquon. But maybe the biggest key is they have the best offensive line in football. And I think that if the Eagles are going to win, that's how they do it. By either first keeping creating big holes for Barkley so he could break some runs, but secondly, keeping Hertz upright if they can. The Chiefs have such a good pass rush. If they can protect Hertz and keep him out of sacks and therefore for out of second and long, third long, which would prevent the Eagles from running. I think that's how Philly would win this game.
- [53:11]
Pablo Torre
Yeah, look, I think the real detailed case for the Eagles is the footage we were just seeing. It's what they did last week. If they could do against the Chiefs what they did to the Commanders. To be clear, they're winning the Super Bowl. The issue is just at the Eagles last week against the Commanders or two weeks ago. Now what they did was simply not just the greatest performance of their season season, the best offense that we've seen out of that team out of that city in years. It's also the fact that that was one of the greatest rushing games, if not the greatest rushing attack in playoff history. And so there's an outlier dynamic here, John, where, yes, that team can do it, but when it comes to the Super Bowl, I am just going to bet on the consistency of the team that has been there and has met the moment. In a way that makes the Eagles performance last week or two weeks ago now my brain is fried. I'm in South Florida. Of course, that, that feels like. That feels like the exception that proves the rule is my feeling on how those Eagles looked.
- [54:04]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. You know, Mike Barnacle, one of the more exhausting arguments that I hear. There really is. No, I don't think there's a correct answer because I think it's both. Is asking did the Patriots win all those games because of Bill Belichick or because of Tom Brady? It was because of both of them. I mean, it was an extraordinary partnership. You say the same thing thing with the Chiefs. We always lead with Mahomes, but my God, Andy Reid, what an offensive system he has put together that matches Mahomes perfectly. And their defensive coordinator, Steve Spagnolo, it just. They have extraordinary coaches that just complete the picture and make the Chiefs that much harder to beat. Call anyone up in Buffalo and they will tell you, despite their rabid fandom for the Buffalo Bills, which is well deserved, they will tell you that they watched repeatedly, not just this year. Andy Reid out coached the Buffalo Bills head coach each time they played. Andy Reid is responsible for most of what happens on the field with the Kansas City Chiefs. Patrick Mahomes, obviously one of the greatest players of all time in the National Football League. My head tells me on Sunday that Andy Reid, Patrick Mahomes, Steve Spagnola, William Combine and the Chiefs will probably win. My heart tells me that this is going to be a unique super bowl on Sunday. That the Philadelphia Eagles, as Jonathan just pointed out, with a great running game and a big, tough defense and a fine offensive line, will eke out a three point win.
- [55:38]
Jonathan Lemire
Whoa.
- [55:39]
Joe Scarborough
Let's hope so.
- [55:41]
Jonathan Lemire
Okay, well, we've actually made our predictions for the outcome of Super Bowl 59. Joe and I have the Chiefs while everyone else thinks the Eagles will win on Sunday.
- [55:52]
Adrienne Elrod
Wow, look at that.
- [55:52]
Jonathan Lemire
Oh, wait, Heilman, I didn't get yours.
- [55:55]
Adrienne Elrod
Oh, I'm, I'm with. I never go against against Pablo Torre on anything, so.
- [55:59]
Jonathan Lemire
Okay, I'm, I'm with.
- [56:00]
Adrienne Elrod
I'm with. I'm with Tory on the Chiefs. I just gotta say as I sit here looking at Mike Barnacle.
- [56:05]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah.
- [56:05]
Adrienne Elrod
I know what matters more to him.
- [56:06]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah.
- [56:08]
Joe Scarborough
How many?
- [56:09]
Adrienne Elrod
Four days.
- [56:10]
Joe Scarborough
February 12th.
- [56:11]
Adrienne Elrod
Four days. Four days for the Dodgers, five days for the Red Sox before the Dodgers.
- [56:15]
Jonathan Lemire
Okay, Joe.
- [56:16]
Joe Scarborough
And, and I just have to ask because I, I, I want the Eagles to win. I want Jalen to win. But I see you picked the Eagles. I, I, I, I, I just think the Chiefs are going to win for all the reasons we've been talking about today. I'm just curious, you really think the Eagles are going to win or was just, was that just a hate pick? An anti Mahomes pick?
- [56:40]
Mike Barnacle
I mean Joe, I would say arguably my best quality is sports hate. And as you well know, whether it's the Yankees or the Lakers, we heard that earlier this week. And these days, the Chiefs, I respect them but I'm rooting against them. I think it's a hard pick.
- [56:54]
Adrienne Elrod
All these Eagles people are really saying who they want to win.
- [56:57]
Jonathan Lemire
Top of the hour.
- [56:58]
Adrienne Elrod
Those of us saying the Chiefs are who we say who we will host to.
- [57:00]
Jonathan Lemire
Pablo Torre finds out on Metal Arc Media. MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre, thank you very much for being. Of course on this morning, auto insurance.
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Joe Scarborough
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