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- [00:01]
Rachel Maddow
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts. The first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.
- [00:43]
Joe Scarborough
Now is the time. So we're gonna do it.
- [00:45]
Rachel Maddow
Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.
- [00:48]
Joe Scarborough
How do we strategically align ourselves to.
- [00:51]
Willie Geist
This moment of information, this moment of.
- [00:53]
Joe Scarborough
Transition in our country?
- [00:54]
Rachel Maddow
The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [01:00]
Joe Scarborough
It doesn't look like you're getting support from the Democrats on this. You're going against the judges now. What's next?
- [01:08]
Tom Holman
Another flight.
- [01:09]
Ali Vitale
Another flight.
- [01:10]
Eugene Robinson
Every day the teams are going to be out there.
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Ali Vitale
Every day. Every day the men and women of.
- [01:15]
Tom Holman
ICE are going to be in the.
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Ali Vitale
Neighborhoods of this nation arresting criminal, illegal.
- [01:19]
Tom Holman
Alien, public safety threats and national security threats.
- [01:22]
Ali Vitale
Lawrence, you're not going to stop us.
- [01:23]
Tom Holman
I'm proud to be a part of this administration. We're not stopping. I don't care what the judges think. I don't care what the left thinks. We're coming.
- [01:30]
Joe Scarborough
A defined message that's top. Tom Holman, the border czar and the Trump administration after deporting migrants to El Salvador without full due process. We'll bring the latest on the legal fight over those flights which a judge ordered to return to the United States before they reach their destination. So far, the Trump administration ignoring that. We'll also get a live report from Tel Aviv on the new Israeli strikes across Gaza. The deadliest attack since the cease fire agreement with Hamas was signed a couple of months ago. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, March 18th. With us, the co host of our fourth hour, Jonathan Lemire. He is a contributing writer at the Atlantic covering the White House and national politics. Also with us, the host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and associate editor of the Washington Post, Eugene Robinson and U.S. national Editor at the Financial Times, Ed Luce. Good morning to you all. Joe. There's a lot of heavy news to get to this morning, but I have some good news for you. The Major League Baseball season is underway. The Cubs and Dodgers In Tokyo. It's happening. It's happening.
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Ali Vitale
America's real game.
- [02:36]
Joe Scarborough
There it is right now in Tokyo.
- [02:38]
Ed Luce
Baseball. There it is.
- [02:40]
Ali Vitale
Apple pie. And the Tokyo Dome starting right now, baby. How exciting. This is so exciting that baseball season is underway. We're thrilled about it. Around our household, hope always springs eternal. And really, though, what a great game to start off with. I would have preferred it been a little closer to home, but still a great, great game to start off. And we need some good news. You know, Willie, we just saw a member of the Trump administration saying he doesn't care what judges think. I news flash from James Madison. You don't really have that choice. You know, the thing is, I hear a lot of people being shocked about how could a. How could a federal judge do this? Why Donald Trump won by 1 1/2 percent. How could. Well, for bloggers, I'll say this slowly. This is what happens in Madisonian democracy. Federal judges do have the power to question the authority of a presidential action. And then, as some Republican senators, I think John Kennedy from Louisiana said, you know, that's why God created the appellate courts. But just again, for our blogging friends. Do people still blog, Willie? I really don't know. Do people blog? Do they?
- [04:09]
Joe Scarborough
I think so. Yeah. With the typewriter.
- [04:11]
Ali Vitale
I had this sushi last night. So for arp, I'm going to talk a little more slowly than usual so they'll understand it. This happens under America's constitution. It happened to Barack Obama, a guy who won a massive landslide, biggest landslide win, I think, that we've seen since Richard Nixon or Ronald Reagan. Barack Obama's ADAPA program was actually stopped by a single federal judge in Texas. He appealed it and it went up to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court ultimately ruled against the Obama administration. You also had George or Joe Biden's vaccine mandates also being stopped in 2021 by a single federal judge. Guess where the state of Texas. You also had Barack Obama's gender policy stopped by a single federal judge in the state of Texas, and they got appealed. And you had George W. Bush's NSA warrantless wiretap program getting stopped by a single federal judge back in 2007. And now what? What happened after that? What happens under our Constitution? They get appealed and sometimes the judges follow the lower federal court judges, and sometimes they don't. But every time I hear somebody go, oh, my God, Donald Trump got elected by one and a half percentage points. How in the world could anybody stop a president got elected by everybody? Well, when he got elected, he was elected to lead one of three parts of our government, three separate and equal co branches. So this is just what happens. Just like, I mean, Willie, this would be like people blogging. I am shocked at every march they get over 60 basketball teams and throw them together to play. No, this happens every year. And the fact that people in the Trump administration and the fact that supporters are acting shocked that a federal judge could do this just means they either don't know history or they're ignoring history. And no, administration officials don't have the choice to say I'm not going to listen to what judges say.
- [07:05]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, those officials ignoring history and ignoring the Constitution, all these things that we take for granted, that we understand, this is the way our system works. We're having to say out loud again, as you just explained very well, which is that there are appellate courts and it could go all the way to the Supreme Court. And you don't get to just ignore those decisions. So let's explain what we're talking about here. The Justice Department has until noon Eastern today to answer key questions about the deportation of migrants to El Salvador without due process. The judge set that deadline during a tense hearing yesterday after he pressed a DOJ lawyer about Saturday's flights. He wanted to know how many there were and how many were in the air at the time of his ruling, which the lawyer refused to answer, citing national security concerns. The judge appeared puzzled, according to the Washington Post, noting that he reviews classified information all the time. He summarized the administration's position as, quote, we don't care. We'll do what we want. Meanwhile, we are learning more about the timeline of Saturday's events with those flights. According to the Post, two of the three flights had already left Texas before the judge's ruling in Court at 6:47 Eastern Time. That decision was entered into the docket at 7:26, 10 minutes before the third plane took off. Officials in Honduras confirmed to the New York Times all three planes spent several hours at an air base there before taking off for El Salvador. The paper reports the planes landed in El Salvador after midnight. The White house yesterday confirmed 137 of the 261 immigrants sent to El Salvador were expelled from the United States using the Alien Enemies Act, Joe, an old law that Donald Trump and the administration is invoking to get rid of, they say, from our country, gang members. The vetting process of people to determine who is in a gang and who's not and due process in general remains up in the air this morning.
- [08:58]
Ali Vitale
Well, I mean, you know the thing is, again, chances are very good that the higher courts, just looking at past president will probably give them the power to be able to do what they want to do on immigration policies. But they can't just go ahead and do it and ignore federal judges orders. Let's bring in right now to talk more about the senior legal affairs reporter at Politico, Josh Gerstein. Josh, again, what there's so many things that are, are surprising about this, but to see White House officials and supporters of Donald Trump shocked. Oh my God. A single federal judge can't stop the President of the United States. When George W. Bush's NSA wiretapping program was stopped by a single judge. Joe Biden's vaccine mandates were stopped by a single judge. Barack Obama's immigration program for the parents of DACA participants stopped by a single federal court. So again, they have to know, the lawyers inside have to know. This happens to every administration. This is nothing new under the sun.
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Tom Holman
Yeah, you're quite right about the history, Joe. I mean, it really took off under the last few years of the Obama administration. We started to see more and more of these nationwide injunctions. And look, it has been controversial within the legal community. You've had some scholars speak out and say, is this the right way to do this? You know, supporting this argument that maybe a single federal judge shouldn't have this power. But at least in recent years, they have had this power. And the proposals for legislative reforms to this have really not gotten off the ground. And so it is not a terribly new phenomenon. It's one that the federal government under, you know, presidents of both parties have been struggling to deal with for at least the last, you know, decade and a half. I would say.
- [10:56]
Ali Vitale
Yeah. And again, John Lemire, this goes all the way back. George W. Bush, 2007, in the middle of his war on terror, had his NSA warrantless wireless wiretapping program stopped by a single federal judge. And again, yeah, no president likes this. Every president says the same thing, like, you know, single judge, it's frustrating. That single judge has to stop it and then you have to go through the appeals process. I will say though, and a lot of cases, the lower district court judge's decision is ultimately upheld by the Supreme Court. So again, it's, it's whether they like it or not, no president, whether it was Barack Obama who had it done to him time and time again, Joe Biden or George W. Bush, no president has the right to say, I'm just his administration because the president hasn't said, I'm going to ignore federal judges yet, I don't think. But administration officials can't say we're just going to ignore the judges.
- [12:01]
Ed Luce
Yeah, being frustrated by lone federal judges is a bipartisan experience. And certainly President Biden, in his term covering that extensively, repeatedly would be frustrated, like student loan issues where a judge would knock things down. So, Josh, let's talk a little more specifically about what we what happened yesterday in that hearing about these deportation flights. Clearly a very frustrated federal judge. So take us inside the room there and what this means potentially going forward, especially in light of pretty bellicose threats there from members of the Trump administration, including Tom Holman, saying, look, we will defy federal court orders in order to carry out our deportation plans.
- [12:42]
Tom Holman
Well, the judge handling that is James Boasberg. He's the chief judge of the U.S. district Court in Washington. And, you know, this was a fairly tense hearing. He's a very mild mannered guy there. It's hard to rile him up. But you could tell during this hearing he was beginning to get riled up. He was irritated by a couple of the things that the government lawyers said in addition to sort of stonewalling him on the facts of the situation. You know, there were questions raised by the Justice Department there where they said, well, we don't have to follow your orders once these planes leave US Territory or leave US Waters. The judge found that to be very dubious. Courts regularly order relief for people who are overseas when it comes to US Agencies and the actions of the US Government. So the notion that they have no authority beyond US Territorial waters over the executive branch is just one that is very dubious. And, you know, there were other arguments that the judge raised againsti'm sorry, that the administration raised against his orders that he just found, you know, I think, underwhelming. And he got a sense that, you know, the administration had rushed the departure of some of these planes in order to avoid his jurisdiction and his authority. And you could tell that he was irked by that and trying to consider what his next options were. One thing I would point out, though, Willie and Joe, is that the tone that the lawyers took in the courtroom was somewhat different than you heard from Tom Homan and we heard even from Attorney General Pam Bondi. They did say that, that they would not defy the judge's order going forward. They insisted they somehow had not broken it already, but they said they would withhold these sorts of flights under the Alien Enemies act authority going forward. So there was sort of a concession here by the administration in court that you're not hearing in those statements from Tom Homan and Pam Bondi.
- [14:45]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. Which, as you said, is directly at odds with what we just heard Tom Homan say. So there will be more flights today, so we'll see how that shakes out. Senior legal affairs reporter at Politico, Josh Gerstein walking us through all this. Josh, thanks so much. In its latest editorial entitled Deportations and the Law, the Wall Street Journal editorial board this morning is writing this quote, it's troubling to see US Officials appear to disdain the law in the name of upholding it. Are we already arriving at a constitutional impasse when the administration thinks it can ignore court orders? The administration can appeal whatever ruling Judge Boasberg hands down and the case will go up the appellate chain, perhaps as far as the Supreme Court, what the administration cannot do is defy a court order without being lawless itself. Mr. Trump won the election on a promise to deport illegal migrants. His voters will be happy he is fulfilling that promise, but he has to do it within the bounds of American law or he will take the country down a dangerous road. That echoes the way the Biden administration abused the justice system. Mr. Trump was elected to stop that, not imitate it, writes the Wall Street Journal this morning. Gene Robinson, the Journal again making the case, as it has in these first couple of months, against a lot of what this administration is doing, whether it's tariffs or now these, the use of the Enemies act and everything they're doing to try to get these flights of illegal immigrants out of the country. What is your sense, though, of what happens next? I mean, if you have lawyers in court saying, okay, we're sorry, we won't do these flights anymore, and the president and the border czar, Tom Homan, saying, oh, yeah, there are going to be more flights today. We're just going to put our head down and plow through. What gives?
- [16:26]
Josh Gerstein
Well, you know, I don't know what happens today, but I know what happened over the weekend. And they defied a court order. You know, they may be saying in court, they may have said in court yesterday that, oh, well, we won't defy a court order, we won't, you know, we'll listen to the court. But in fact, they did not. They defied a court order. The judge said, don't do this, turn those planes around if they're in the air. And they flat out refused to follow the court order. And so I don't know about this sort of approaching a constitutional impasse trope because we are There, you know, it's not just what Tom Homan said, which is outrageous, but, but it's what the administration did that I find not concerning but alarming because again, this is not what James Madison envisioned. This is not the way our government is supposed to work and it is a serious breach of the constitutional order and it leads nowhere. Good.
- [17:37]
Joe Scarborough
More on this in just a moment. We want to pause and get to Tel Aviv. Israeli forces have launched a new wave of attacks across Gaza. Last night Israeli officials announced they've started to conduct extensive strikes on Hamas targets. This as ceasefire talks have stalled. The prime Minister's office claims the goal is to secure the release of all hostages, saying quote, from now on, Israel will act against Hamas with increasing military force. According to Palestinian officials, more than 300 people have died from the strikes. The Hamas run government in Gaza does not distinguish between civilian and combatant deaths. This is the first major attack on the territory since that ceasefire began about two months ago, ending what had been a period of relative calm during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. Let's bring in NBC News international correspondent Matt Bradley who joins us live from Tel Aviv. So Matt, what more do we know about these strikes today?
- [18:33]
Willie Geist
Yeah, Willie. Well, this was striking across the entire enclave and as you mentioned, it looks like more than 350 people were killed. This according to the Palestinian health officials in Hamas ruled Gaza. And those numbers are really likely to go up because it looks as though this renewed attack, these assaults across the Gaza Strip are going to be unrelenting and are not going to stop here. Now we've been hearing talk about this for the past several weeks. You know, this hostage deal, this peace treaty, I shouldn't say peace treaty. This treaty was inked with help from the U.S. i mean the U.S. was taking the lead in negotiating this for the better part of the past year and a half. Two months ago in late January. And ever since then it has been a very tenuous truce. It expired the first phase just a couple of weeks ago on March 1st. Ever since then, both sides have refused to engage in any really worthwhile negotiations that would either see an extension to the first phase of that treaty or to move on to the second phase of that treaty. So why? The Israelis said they wanted to see an extension of the first phase. They wanted to see hostages released in exchange for Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. More of the same that we saw for the first six weeks starting in late January. Hamas said they want to stick to the rule, the letter of that treaty from late January. They want to see negotiations moving on to the second phase of the treaty, which would see, ideally for Hamas, a full withdrawal of the Israeli troops and some sort of permanent truce in the Gaza Strip. Neither side seemed to be able to meet the gap or cross the gap in their demands. And so it looks as though the Israelis eventually got fed up and decided late last night, overnight at about 2am local time here to renew their assault on the Gaza Strip. Now, we haven't heard, we heard that Hamas said that this is a violation of the peace of the treaty from late January. But this is something that is probably going to get worse and worse. You know, we're going to continue to see attacks by the Israelis. As you said, we've been hearing extremely bellicose language, including from the Minister of Defense, Israel Katz, saying that, that, you know, they're going to rain hell on, on Hamas. And you know, this really just goes to show there's a big change here. We've seen the Israelis cutting off aid several weeks ago to the Gaza Strip, which saw a huge spike in prices for food in the Gaza Strip, which was already suffering from famine like conditions before that treaty in late January. Then we saw them cutting off electricity which all but shut down a desalination plant that so many Palestinians in the Gaza Strip had relied on for fresh water, leading a lot of them to resort to drinking brackish water. And the United nations warned that nine out of 10 people in Gaza didn't have access to safe, clean water. Well, now the situation is about to get much, much worse. We haven't heard much about ground operations yet, but we can expect to hear a lot more. The Israelis had said that they're specifically targeting mid level Hamas commanders. So it looks as though they are, they had some time to think about who to strike the, you know, hone their targets. And we had heard this last week from several media sources saying that they have a kill list, that they've expanded the Israelis and they know exactly who they're going after. So it looks as though, according to Israeli and foreign media, that they are, they had a plan for the past several weeks about how to reenter this fight. And it looks like we're seeing that plan being activated in the Gaza Strip.
- [21:53]
Joe Scarborough
NBC's Matt Bradley live for us in Tel Aviv. Matt, thanks so much. We appreciate it, Ali. And we should point out the White House saying yesterday that President Trump was consulted, that the administration was consulted by the Israeli government about these strikes, about these targets inside of Gaza. White House press secretary saying this is Donald Trump reminding terrorist groups, as he did with the Houthis a couple of days ago, that you will pay a price for terrorism. Here it is standing shoulder to shoulder with the Israelis.
- [22:20]
Eugene Robinson
Yeah, exactly right. And not surprising, given the posture that this White House and the President himself have taken a long time friendship that he has with the Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu, now on full display against the backdrop of this continued tumultuous landscape there in the Middle east. We had seen, seen at loose in this initial month or two of the Trump administration that tenuous ceasefire deal holding, the exchange of hostages happening. Of course, once that phase two broke down and negotiations along with it, we now see on the ground a resurgence in the fighting. Do you think that this continues to get worse? It seems to me that it only echoes the aggressive language that we've heard, as Matt referenced there from the Israelis, but that echoes what we hear from the President himself. This idea of there will be hell to pay or hell raining down. All that language now seems to be matching with action again.
- [23:12]
Gene Robinson
Yeah, unfortunately it does. And it's not just about the Gaza Strip or Yemen. It's about Iran too, because the president most recently yesterday says that they will suffer the consequences if there are any. The Iranians, if there are any further Houthi attacks. So I don't think that however much criticism Joe Biden received for not doing enough to restrain Netanyahu's government, he's nothing compared to Trump, who's actually egging them on and inciting, fighting them. And we've got no, as far as I can tell, plans for Steve Witkoff, his Middle Eastern envoy, to go to Israel and to go to the region to try and talk this down. There is no talking down from this administration. It's all very, very extreme language. I should note, though, that Trump's base, or at least some of those who claim to speak for it, like Tucker Carlson or Ann Coulter, I try not to pay attention to them too much, but they are extremely opposed to any Middle Eastern milit action by this administration. So Trump does have that sort of, if you can call that a constraint, he does have that sort of whisper over his left ear.
- [24:23]
Ed Luce
And we do have just Willie as to button this up. Iran wrote a letter to the UN Denying any involvement, and they put it destabilizing activities in the region after Trump accused them of supporting the Houthis after those strikes. And a statement from the National Security Council from the Trump White House saying Hamas could have released hostage hostages to extend the ceasefire, but instead chose refusal and war. So clearly, the White House is suggesting that Hamas is responsible for this breakdown in the ceasefire and the talks and the resumption of Israeli attacks, and Israel.
- [24:52]
Joe Scarborough
Saying explicitly these attacks are only going to increase from here. Still ahead this morning on MORNING joe, President Trump says he will discuss dividing up certain assets, in his words, between Russia and Ukraine in a phone call with Vladimir Putin this morning. Morning. Well, the latest on the administration's efforts to end that war and where it might leave Ukraine. Plus, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer has postponed several events to promote his new book this week because of security concerns. We will dig into the backlash he's been facing after he and other Democrats helped to pass a Republican led government funding bill. You're watching Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds.
- [25:32]
Eugene Robinson
This podcast is supported by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Planned Parenthood Federation of America exists so all people can get access to the sexual and reproductive care and education they need. Planned Parenthood organizations advocate for health equity and policies that allow people the freedom to control their own bodies, lives and futures. More than 2 million patients a year rely on Planned Parenthood health center services like STI testing and treatment, birth control, gender affirming care, abortion, cancer screenings and more. Reproductive health care and rights are under attack from public officials who are out of step with the will of the vast majority of Americans. The constitutional right to abortion has been stolen and politicians in 47 states have introduced bills that would block people from getting the sexual and reproductive care they need. Planned Parenthood knows that equitable access to healthcare, including safe, legal abortion, is a human right. Right now, Planned Parenthood needs your help to protect access to healthcare. Donate today by visiting plannedparenthood.org protect it's.
- [26:35]
Rachel Maddow
President Trump's first 100 days and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines.
- [26:42]
Eugene Robinson
What issue matters to you the most?
- [26:44]
Rachel Maddow
Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.
- [26:50]
Tom Holman
Do you think now that he's pardoned.
- [26:51]
Eugene Robinson
Everybody he can count on this group of people again?
- [26:54]
Rachel Maddow
Search for Trump. Let's with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening. And follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [27:14]
Joe Scarborough
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going.
- [27:19]
Rachel Maddow
On here, previews of our podcast and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com.
- [27:37]
Joe Scarborough
The other stories making headlines today the Pentagon has removed a webpage celebrating the image of Private First Class Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian who was one of the six Marines photograph raising an American flag at iwo Jima in 1945. That iconic photograph, according to the Washington Post, pages celebrating Navajo code talkers and other minority service members also were erased. This comes amid the Trump administration's wide ranging crackdown on what it calls DEI efforts in the federal government taking down information about the famous Ira Hayes. Markets Stocks climbed for a second straight day with the Dow jumping more than 300 points. That follows a four week losing streak on Wall street as the markets responded to President Trump's chaotic tariff policies. Tesla, however, started off another week deep in the red. After falling for eight straight weeks, the carmaker now has lost 50% of its value in just the past three months and Canada's new leader is looking to shore up support among European allies. Prime Minister Mark Carney met British and French leaders on his first overseas visit amid tensions with the Trump administration over Canada's sovereignty and its economy. Canada's Liberal Party appeared poised for a historic defeat in the upcoming elections before Donald Trump's tariff policies went into place. Now that party could come out on top, the Kremlin has confirmed Russian President Vladimir Putin will speak with President Trump this morning at 9:00 Eastern Time as part of the White House push to end the war in Ukraine. The president previewed his conversation with Putin earlier this week, saying the two leaders will discuss land and quote, dividing up certain assets. Notably, no Ukrainian official will be on the call this morning. President Trump is looking to win Putin's approval on a 30 day cease fire deal already supported by Ukraine, according to Semaphore. As a gesture of good faith, the White House is considering formally recognizing Crimea as Russian territory, New York Times reports. The president will in essence be negotiating over how large a reward Russia will receive for its 11 years of open aggression against Ukraine, starting with its seizure of Crimea in 2014 and extending through the full scale war Putin started three years ago. President Trump told reporters yesterday Ukrainian soldiers in the Kursk region of Russia are in dire straits and need a deal immediately.
- [30:07]
Ali Vitale
Tomorrow I'm speaking with President Putin of Russia to save some soldiers who are in deep trouble. They're captured. Essentially they're surrounded by Russian soldiers. So I give it to you A lot of different. I give you a lot of different things in one news conference, but it's a big deal. They're surrounded by Russian soldiers. And I believe if it wasn't for me, they would be. They wouldn't be here any longer. I was able to get them not to do anything at this moment. But it's a bad situation in Russia and it's a bad situation in Ukraine. What's happening in Ukraine is not good, but we're going to see if we can work a peace agreement, a ceasefire and peace, and I think we'll be able to do it.
- [30:50]
Joe Scarborough
So, Joe, obviously the Ukrainian fear and the fear of the west, frankly, is what Donald Trump is going to give away on that phone call a couple of hours from now with Vladimir Putin.
- [31:00]
Ali Vitale
Right. And just a note for interested viewers. It's also bad in Russia. Estimates that Russians have lost up to 800,000 soldiers in this war. Their economy is shattered, inflation continuing to skyrocket. This is a deal that Vladimir Putin needs badly as well. So I lose. The question has never really been whether Ukraine is going to give up land. I mean, the Biden administration two years ago was admitting the inevitable. I mean, Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was admitting the inevitable two, three years ago or two years ago, that any peace deal, any ceasefire deal, would include Ukraine giving up land. But giving up land in exchange for security guarantees. That's the real question here, isn't it? If the land is given up, does Ukraine get security guarantees in exchange for that? And so far, we've heard nothing to suggest that they do nothing.
- [32:09]
Gene Robinson
And of course, even if Ukraine is going to give up land in exchange for whatever that security undertaking might or might not be, this is not the kind of thing that you concede in advance of talks. The fact is, from Pete Hegseth, if you remember his visit to Europe a month ago, more than a month ago, where he announced all these concessions Ukraine would make, none that Russia would make that. This has been very much the administration's template all along. Don't believe it. When Donald Trump says, we will put sanctions on Putin, he has no. That's pure sort of verbiage. He has a very clear game plan here, which is as quickly as possible, to force Ukraine into submission to a deal that it doesn't want, but which it cannot afford to turn down, an offer it cannot refuse. And I don't think that a call between Putin and Trump. We remember the first 90 minute one that preceded J.D. vance's speech in Munich. I don't think that a call between Trump and Putin is a call where Trump is twisting Putin's arm, threatening, cajoling and saying, you've got to do this to bring peace to the region. He is plotting with Putin, as far as I can tell, as to how best they can both achieve what they both want, which is Ukraine's submission and for us, Russia, economic relations and deals, deals, deals, whatever it is Trump's got in his sights. And quite possibly Trump appearing as the honored guest at the May 9 Red Square parade, the Victory in Europe parade. I don't think Trump would turn that one down. That's the kind of conversation he'll be having. Let's not pretend this is normal diplomacy.
- [34:03]
Ali Vitale
Well, the image of Yalta that we showed while you were talking reminds us that American presidents have a long, long history of being suckered by Russians. You had, of course, FDR at Yalta trying to charm Stalin, sort of pushing Churchill to the side often, and Churchill and FDR getting outplayed time and again, as you know very well, Ed, from your work with writing Dr. Brzezinski's biography. Yalta was always a bad word in the Brzezinski household because of FDR's failures there. You had, of course, JFK being made a fool in the Vienna summit in, I believe it was 62. And then you have George W. Bush saying that he looked into the eyes of Vladimir Putin and could read his soul. Putin, of course, then basically declared war on the West a few years later and invaded Georgia. Then Barack Obama saying that Medvedev, hey, give us a couple of. A little bit of space after the election, then we can do more together. That's when Russia, of course, invaded Ukraine, invaded Crimea, began shooting down commercial aircraft, on and on and on. And so here we have it happening yet again, where Vladimir Putin is going to make a sucker out of every president this century except for Joe Biden, unless Donald Trump stands up to him.
- [35:44]
Gene Robinson
Yeah, you should just sort of. There are so many other things going on, but one of the Elon Musk cuts was to the Yale unit that has been investigating the abduction of thousands of Ukrainian children into Russia. The kidnapping to take forcible removal from their families, thousands of them. And that unit is being closed because apparently it's waste, fraud and abuse. We have Tulsi Gabbard saying last night that Putin and Trump are very good friends. Just the mood music coming from this administration is pro Russia. I can't think of a better or more blunt way of putting it. It's pro Russia. So Putin might have hoodwinked Bush and Obama and the Russians might have a long record of having done that with their Western counterpar. But in Trump's case, they don't need to hoodwink him. He's working with them. This is new and it's chilling. It really is. It really is chilling and shameful.
- [36:49]
Ali Vitale
Well, Gene, let's talk about what a cease fire would look like, what a ceasefire would do. We don't know what the terms would be. We certainly hope they won't be as bad as many suggest they will be. But this war has been going on since 2014 and Vladimir Putin will attack, stop, reload, attack, stop, reload. In 2019, there was a ceasefire deal. He stopped, reloaded and then invaded like three years later, like this keeps happening. So any ceasefire deal that doesn't provide security guarantees would just be the United States saying to Vladimir Putin, we have a ceasefire deal for you. You can rest, you can reload, and then you can invade Ukraine again and maybe next time you'll be able to get to Kyiv, which again, that's just not a deal that any Republican in the United States Senate or any Republican in the United States House should stand for. There has to be a security guarantee that stops the next invasion by Vladimir Putin.
- [38:04]
Josh Gerstein
You're absolutely right. Except can you imagine this administration giving that sort of guarantee? I think frankly, the Trump administration is more likely to give Vladimir Putin formal recognition of Crimea as Russian territory. Not de facto recognition, but formal recognition of Crimea as part of Russia, de facto recognition of, of the Donbas, the eastern part of Ukraine, as under Russian control. And I find it hard to imagine Donald Trump giving a security guarantee to Ukraine that has any teeth, that has any muscle behind it, and thus it will fall to the Europeans to figure out what to do and how to do it. And that'syou know, this is such a change in the world order that we have seen for the last 80 years, that has kept the peace for the last 80 years. That to me seems a thing of the past. And again, maybe, maybe Trump will prove me wrong. I doubt it. He's clearly heading in this direction. It'll be a very, very different Europe in the years to come.
- [39:27]
Ali Vitale
Well, let's hope that's all. All I suppose we can do right now because all the signs are pointing to a one sided deal. Jonathan Lemire and again, the question is, are Republicans going to sit back and be fine with a cease fire deal that simply allows Vladimir Putin to reload? And I think one of the things that Republicans are very concerned about that we've heard about in the media. Also, though, is the fact that this administration just keeps negotiating against itself in public. It sends its secretary of defense to the Munich conference, he gives up all of these things that the Russians desperately want, desperately want, and gives them up publicly without any negotiating. And now we're hearing talks of handing over Crimea or the Donbass. As far as recognition of that, I mean, perhaps we eventually would get to that in any negotiation, but negotiations require that both sides give something. And what the Ukrainians need to stop Vladimir Putin from invading their country again two years from now are security guarantees from Europe, security guarantees from the United States. Security guarantees.
- [40:56]
Ed Luce
I think it's instructive not just to look at the past when Russian leaders have gotten the better of their American counterparts, but just let's look at the more recent president past, about how Donald Trump continues to be outplayed by Vladimir Putin and has been nothing but deferential to him. Even in the clip we played a few moments ago there in the parking garage of the Kennedy center when Trump suggested that there were these Ukrainian soldiers surrounded by by Russians. That's not true. Ukrainian and Western intelligence officials say that's not the case. Now, to be clear, Ukraine has largely withdrawn their troops from the Kursk region. They only control a sliver of it. Now, it is possible that is what Trump is referring to, but those are Kremlin talking points that Trump, again, Trump and his allies seem all too willing to parrot. We know what happened the last time that Trump and Putin spoke, the way.
- [41:46]
Ali Vitale
He framed the conflict. Yeah, I did just say really quickly and then continue. Also, he never talks about the fact that the Russians have lost 800,000 to a million people fighting this war. They only lost, what, 40,000 in Afghanistan when they had to retreat in shame from Afghanistan, they've lost 800 to a million people. Their military has been decimated. Their economy has been decimated. Inflation is skyrocketing. Like the quality of life in Russia in Moscow has gone down decidedly. So talking about how bad things are in Ukraine tell one half. It tells one half of the story. And that's Vladimir Putin's half of the story.
- [42:36]
Joe Scarborough
Right.
- [42:36]
Ali Vitale
The fact is, his military has been shattered by this, and they need a ceasefire every bit as much as the Ukrainians do.
- [42:46]
Ed Luce
But that's not what. But you're completely right. But Putin certainly doesn't ever say that. And therefore, Trump is not going to acknowledge that part of the equation here. He has been completely deferential. And it seems like as we go into this call today and the we assume impending negotiations finally between Ukraine and Russia, where the US Is landing. It's on the side of Moscow. National Security Adviser Mike Walts over the weekend, appearing on the Sunday shows will he talked about quite a bit about the concessions that Ukraine will have to make. Never once mentioned what Russia will have.
- [43:17]
Joe Scarborough
To give up, which repeats what we've.
- [43:19]
Ed Luce
Heard from the defense secretary and Trump himself in recent weeks. And that's why, yes, a few Republican senators have expressed private concern about where this is going. They didn't love some of them went on the record saying they didn't love the first call with Putin. But the pushback has been mild, to say the least. And there are so many European leaders, and particularly in Kyiv, who are deeply worried about what comes out of this call today, that Trump and Putin will have struck some sort of deal that leaves them out of it.
- [43:46]
Joe Scarborough
Time and time again, the burden has been placed on Ukraine, the victim of this invasion three years ago and really going back 11 years, US National Editor at the Financial Times, Ed Luce. Ed, thanks so much, as always. Coming up here, Democratic lawmakers in Arizona are now hearing complaints from their constituents about the Trump administration's policies. Well, dark dig into those concerns. Plus, we'll have the latest on those two NASA astronauts who are finally returning home after nine months on the International Space Station, a voyage that was supposed to be eight days. Morning Joe's coming right back.
- [44:31]
Rachel Maddow
It's President Trump's first 100 days, and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines.
- [44:39]
Eugene Robinson
What issue matters to you the most?
- [44:41]
Rachel Maddow
Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.
- [44:47]
Eugene Robinson
Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?
- [44:51]
Rachel Maddow
Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow search subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free the first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are defined. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.
- [45:14]
Joe Scarborough
Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.
- [45:16]
Rachel Maddow
Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.
- [45:19]
Joe Scarborough
How do we strategically align ourselves to.
- [45:22]
Willie Geist
This moment of information, this moment of.
- [45:24]
Joe Scarborough
Transition in our country?
- [45:25]
Rachel Maddow
The Rachel Maddow show, weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week, she and her guests explore how the Democratic party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.
- [45:43]
Joe Scarborough
There's probably both messaging and policy issues.
- [45:46]
Ali Vitale
But as you look to kind of.
- [45:47]
Willie Geist
Of where the Democratic Party is, do.
- [45:49]
Joe Scarborough
You think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?
- [45:53]
Rachel Maddow
The Blueprint with Jen Psaki subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content. Incredibly powerless, trying to plan for our family.
- [46:08]
Joe Scarborough
This is. We can't wait until it's done.
- [46:13]
Rachel Maddow
We need to know how do we.
- [46:15]
Joe Scarborough
Prepare for what may come down the hatch? We're trying to shield ourselves before we're wounded and we don't know how.
- [46:24]
Rachel Maddow
Would you mind telling your colleagues in.
- [46:26]
Joe Scarborough
Washington that when they're burning down this.
- [46:28]
Rachel Maddow
House, there's people still inside? My kid is inside.
- [46:33]
Joe Scarborough
A resident of Scottsdale, Arizona. Last night, during a joint town hall for Democratic Senators Mark Kelly and Ruben Gallego, the senators heard from a number of constituents voicing frustration with the Trump administration's recent moves and were asked how they intend to fight back. That town hall comes as several Republican members of Congress have canceled in person events due to tough comments from constituents. Here's another voter addressing the senators from Arizona. They've shown us over and over and.
- [47:05]
Ali Vitale
Over again they don't care.
- [47:08]
Willie Geist
They don't care if people die.
- [47:11]
Joe Scarborough
They don't care if people suffer.
- [47:15]
Willie Geist
We want you to be straight with us.
- [47:17]
Joe Scarborough
How do we go to the next.
- [47:19]
Willie Geist
Level to fight this if that's the case?
- [47:22]
Ali Vitale
So call, write letters, show up at places when you can show up at.
- [47:29]
Tom Holman
At your local congressman's office. You show up in front of their.
- [47:33]
Ali Vitale
Office, tell them how pissed off you are and how bad this is for.
- [47:38]
Joe Scarborough
Our country and how there are people.
- [47:42]
Ali Vitale
Inside the House that you are trying to burn down. Tell them that.
- [47:46]
Joe Scarborough
Senator Kelly there. So, Ali, you cover Capitol Hill very closely every day. So you've got two things going on there. What we saw there were Democrats, of course. We've been talking for the last several weeks about Republicans hearing it from their voters who voted for Donald Trump and say we didn't vote for all this, getting rid of all these jobs and Elon Musk coming in and running the show in some ways. And they're Republicans, excuse me, they're Democrats hearing from their voters. You all need a message. You all need to fight back harder than you are.
- [48:13]
Eugene Robinson
That's exactly right, Willie. And the action in Congress has actually always been at this, at these town halls. For the last few weeks, that's been clear. The true collision of lawmakers and their constituents. Constituents not holding Back in what they think about what they happening in this administration and what's happening in the halls of Congress. It was palpable to me a few weeks ago. And I brought you some of the conversations I had when I went out to a Virginia district about an hour from D.C. yes, there was concern with Doge, with Musk, with Trump, with the administration's actions. There were a lot of federal workers at that town hall. But, Gene, there was also a really palpable sense of frustration among Democratic voters that I spoke to. And the question I kept asking was, is any amount of pushback going to feel like enough? And many of them said no, in large part because there's so much fear. So if that's now the wind at Democrats backs with people concerned about Doge, but also the wind coming at their face because they're so worried there's not enough strategic pushback, where does that leave Democrats?
- [49:12]
Josh Gerstein
Well, it leaves them lost right now because nobody's telling them what to do. That seems potentially effective, right? You know, and yes, absolutely. Showing up, writing letters, you know, to members of Congress, Republican members of Congress. That does have an impact, but it's not stopping the Trump administration. Right? It's not. And it doesn't seem to be effectively even trying to put roadblocks in the way. So what, you know, senators, what are you gonna do? Right. You know, what you did last week was approve the continuing resolution. Maybe that was the right thing to do. Maybe it was the wrong thing to do. But to a lot of Democrats that seemed like you're not fighting, you're not fighting back. And so there is all this energy out there of people who are alarmed, who are distressed and who want something to do, and nobody is really telling them. I mean, the most effective voices, I think, at the moment are those of the left of the party, you know, aoc, Bernie Sanders, and. And they're gonna continue gathering attention and gathering support if the rest of the party can't get its act together. I don't think that's what the rest of the party wants. But let's see it. Let's hear it.
- [50:40]
Ali Vitale
Yeah. I mean, you have, you are right. You have AOC and Bernie Sanders out there fighting. Elizabeth Warren's out there doing a good job fighting as well. You also have sort of more centrist voice. You have Rahm Emanuel, who certainly is out there throwing some haymakers. And, and I think framing. Framing things really well. But, Willie, you know, one of the problems is in Washington, D.C. democrats are fighting each other. They don't like the hand that they've been dealt. And they don't like how Chuck Schumer is playing the cards. I don't know if I told you, but I was on a train one time and old buddy tell me that I just met, he said I had to give him a swig of whiskey, and he said, if you're going to play the game, son, you got to learn how to play it right. Yeah, he did. He said, you got no one to hold them, no one to fold them, no one to walk away, no one to run. I think that's good advice for the Democrats as well. I think there's another thing that old stranger told me on that ride before he took a drink and died. Kind of a strange way to end the song, Kenny. But you don't play your cards into the hands of the other person, right? And I know Chuck Schumer is catching a ton of grief, but I'm a guy. As a Republican, we didn't mind shutting down the government. If the Braves lost three or four games, would shut down the government. We like shutting down the government because we had a Democratic president that wanted to keep it open so we could negotiate. But when you have a Republican president and you have Elon Musk, who want the government to be shut down so they get the power in deciding what's essential to keep open and what's not essential to keep open, you lose your leverage. So I understand people wanting to shut down the government. I understand people wanting to push back and fight. But I will say right now, I don't know that Chuck Schumer in this position had much of a better option. Fight, yes, fight all you can politically, but don't play in the other person's hands. Anyway, that's what that old stranger told me on the train that night.
- [52:52]
Joe Scarborough
You know, on a warm summer's eve, on a train bound for nowhere. Joe, you're known for just. You just get out and ride the rails. You don't even know where it's going. And if you're lucky, you meet somebody like that fella.
- [53:03]
Ali Vitale
Yeah, yeah. He gave me some pearls of wisdom that I've kept with me, and I even use him on this show all the time.
- [53:09]
Joe Scarborough
Willie, Democrats would be wise to listen to that old man. Gene Robinson, thank you for enduring us this morning. We appreciate it, as always.
- [53:18]
Rachel Maddow
Five immersive worlds, one amazing theme park. Get ready to explore the all new Universal Epic Universe. Featuring the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, Ministry of Magic, Super Nintendo World, how.
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Ali Vitale
To Train youn Dragon, Isle of Burke.
- [53:34]
Rachel Maddow
And Dark Universe Universe Epic Universe opens May 22 at Universal Orlando Resort. Our universe will never be the same. Tickets and packages on sale now@universalorlando.com.