Morning Joe 3/20/25

Summary

Morning Joe Podcast Summary – March 20, 2025

Hosts: Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski
Guests: Willie Geist, John Heilman, Anand Giridharadas, David Ignatius, J.D. Vance, Pablo Torre, Jay Billis

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1. Introduction

In the March 20, 2025 episode of Morning Joe, hosts Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski, alongside guest Willie Geist, delve into the day's most pressing political issues. The discussion spans President Donald Trump's controversial executive orders, intense Republican town halls, legal battles over deportation flights, and international diplomacy involving Ukraine and Russia. Additionally, the show touches upon the heated excitement surrounding the NCAA March Madness tournament.

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2. President Trump's Executive Order to Shut Down the Department of Education

Overview:

President Trump is poised to sign an executive order aimed at shutting down the Department of Education, a move that has sparked widespread debate and concern among political analysts and constituents alike.

Key Points:

• Authority and Implications: While Trump can direct the Department to cease operations, formally closing it requires Congressional approval. The White House, however, is taking steps to hamper the Department's functionality, including Workforce reductions led by Education Secretary Linda McMahon.

• Budgetary Context: The Department of Education, with a $270 billion budget, accounts for approximately 4% of the U.S. federal budget. It plays a crucial role in distributing funds to schools serving impoverished communities and overseeing $1.6 trillion in student loans.

Notable Quotes:

• Joe Scarborough [06:55]: "President Trump is expected to sign an executive order later today that would call for shutting down the Department of Education."

• Mika Brzezinski [09:42]: "We've just seen over the past 40 years that actual coordination from Washington works..."

Analysis:

Mika Brzezinski and guest analysts argue that the Department of Education's elimination is a longstanding conservative objective to devolve educational authority to states. However, they contend that states have historically struggled to manage such responsibilities effectively, particularly in areas like Medicaid administration and disaster relief for farmers.

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3. Republican Town Halls and Constituent Reactions

Overview:

Republican Congresswoman Harriet Hageman of Wyoming faced a hostile crowd at a recent town hall, reflecting a broader trend of contentious interactions between Republican lawmakers and their constituents.

Key Points:

• Contentious Atmosphere: Hageman addressed concerns over federal budget cuts and agricultural policies, only to be met with boos and chants supporting figures like Elon Musk.

• Internal Party Conflict: The episode highlights a rift within the MAGA movement between populist elements and billionaire technocrats, exemplified by differing views on policy implementations.

Notable Quotes:

• Harriet Hageman [30:47]: "President Trump's plans to cut these programs and the people who administer them... will decimate Wyoming farms and rural communities."

• Mika Brzezinski [20:02]: "There's two sides to every chainsaw."

Analysis:

The hostility faced by Hageman underscores the challenges Republicans face when implementing policies that have tangible negative impacts on their constituents. Analysts suggest that the aggressive budget cuts, particularly to the Department of Education and Medicaid, are deeply unpopular and may alienate working-class voters across both red and blue states.

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4. Legal Battles Over Deportation Flights to El Salvador

Overview:

The Trump administration's decision to deport hundreds of Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador has led to significant legal challenges, with Attorney General Pam Bondi caught in a tightrope between compliance and confrontation with the courts.

Key Points:

• Judicial Scrutiny: A judge has ordered the Department of Justice to provide more information on the deportation flights, intensifying the legal back-and-forth.

• Administration's Stance: Bondi asserts that the administration intends to comply with court rulings while simultaneously fighting them.

Notable Quotes:

• Anand Giridharadas [16:22]: "There's a real sense here of what happens when this goes back to the states..."

Analysis:

The deportation flights have ignited debates over executive power and human rights, with critics arguing that the administration's actions disregard legal protocols and the welfare of migrants. The legal tussle highlights the broader tensions between the judiciary and the executive branch under Trump's presidency.

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5. International Diplomacy: Trump’s Calls with Zelensky and Putin

Overview:

President Trump's recent phone calls with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and Russian President Vladimir Putin have initiated a complex diplomatic situation concerning a partial ceasefire and energy infrastructure in the ongoing conflict between Ukraine and Russia.

Key Points:

• Ceasefire Agreement: Ukraine has expressed readiness to implement a partial ceasefire focusing on protecting energy infrastructure, pending clarification on the inclusion of civilian infrastructure.

• Senator Lindsey Graham's Sanctions Package: In response to Russia's resistance, Senator Graham is preparing sanctions to pressure Russia into a viable peace agreement.

Notable Quotes:

• Lindsey Graham [25:07]: "President Trump has gotten the ball rolling. This is a guy who's a pretty tough negotiator."

• David Ignatius [16:58]: "There's a lot of competition out there and nobody right now is playing better than or deeper than or bigger than or has better guards than Florida."

Analysis:

The diplomatic efforts signify a potential breakthrough, albeit a slow and uncertain one. The involvement of Senator Graham suggests a bipartisan approach to applying pressure on Russia, balancing the need for negotiation with the enforcement of sanctions to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty is respected.

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6. Implications for the Democratic Party

Overview:

The episode explores the challenges facing the Democratic Party as it grapples with messaging and policy issues amid aggressive Republican strategies.

Key Points:

• Educated Citizenry vs. Political Agendas: Harriet Hageman posits that conservative efforts to undermine educational institutions reflect a desire to limit an informed electorate, which poses a threat to their political objectives.

• Internal Demographic Struggles: The party faces difficulties in addressing the needs of diverse constituencies, particularly in rural areas heavily reliant on federal programs like Medicaid.

Notable Quotes:

• Harriet Hageman [10:38]: "An educated citizenry is not in their interest and they're coming for it."

• Mika Brzezinski [12:08]: “...they are coming for it.”

Analysis:

The Democratic strategists emphasize the importance of maintaining robust federal oversight in education and healthcare to protect vulnerable populations. They argue that Republican tactics aimed at decentralization and budget cuts are ultimately self-defeating, as they erode the very support base that could sustain their political momentum.

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7. College Basketball and March Madness

Overview:

Shifting gears to sports, Morning Joe features an in-depth discussion on the NCAA March Madness tournament, analyzing key teams, potential upsets, and standout players.

Key Points:

• Top Seeds and Dark Horses: Auburn, Duke, Florida, and Houston are highlighted as strong contenders, while teams like Colorado State, Utah State, Yale, and UC San Diego are identified as potential Cinderella stories.

• Player Highlights: Cooper Flagg (Duke), Janai Broom (Auburn), and Rick Pitino (St. John's coach) receive special mention for their exceptional performances and coaching prowess.

Notable Quotes:

• Jay Billis [44:11]: "Cooper Flagg look has been very, very tough to beat through these last three months or so."

• Mika Brzezinski [42:08]: "How great is college basketball?"

Analysis:

The segment underscores the unpredictability and excitement of March Madness, paralleling it with the political unpredictability discussed earlier in the episode. The hosts and guests express optimism about potential upsets and the emergence of new basketball talents, drawing comparisons between sports strategies and political maneuvers.

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8. Conclusion

The March 20, 2025 episode of Morning Joe offers a comprehensive analysis of significant political shifts, particularly focusing on President Trump's aggressive administrative tactics and their repercussions. Coupled with lively discussions on college basketball, the show provides listeners with a balanced mix of in-depth political commentary and engaging sports conversation.

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Notable Moments:

• Humorous Interludes: The hosts engage in light-hearted banter, notably referencing Elon Musk's involvement in political moves and playful jabs at each other's antics.

• Guest Insights: High-profile guests like Anand Giridharadas and J.D. Vance offer critical perspectives on Republican strategies and the broader implications for American governance.

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Key Takeaways:

• Political Strategy: Trump's initiatives to dismantle federal departments face significant opposition and may hinder Republican efforts to maintain support in key demographics.

• Legal and Diplomatic Challenges: Ongoing legal battles and international negotiations remain critical focal points for the administration's stability and effectiveness.

• Public Sentiment: Hostile reactions at town halls reflect deep-seated frustrations among constituents, signaling potential pitfalls for Republican lawmakers.

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For those who missed the episode, Morning Joe provided an insightful examination of the intersection between federal policy changes and their real-world impacts, all while keeping listeners entertained with spirited discussions and expert analysis.

Transcript

[Jen Psaki]

Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows Now, ad free + ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Felshey Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Joe Scarborough]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues, but as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Jen Psaki]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.

[Joe Scarborough]

Doge is not dismantling Social Security. And even with reconciliation, we are not allowed to touch Social Security. The work that I have specifically been doing, I am on the Judiciary Committee and the Natural Resources. It's so bizarre to me how obsessed you are with federal government. But here's the thing. Wow. Republican Congresswoman Harriet Hageman of Wyoming facing an angry crowd last night at her town hall. It continues the trend of contentious meetings with constituents for Republican lawmakers. We're going to have more from that meeting as well as look at the fired up crowd last night for a Democrat in New York. Plus, we have the latest on President Trump's efforts to shut down the Department of Education. He's set to sign an executive order today, but can he actually eliminate the department without an act of Congress? We'll go through that. Also ahead, an update on the legal back and forth between the Department of Justice and the judge questioning the administration about its deportation flights to El Salvador. Attorney General Pam Bondi is trying to have it both ways, claiming they will comply and fight with the courts and continue with everything. We'll go through what we know about the president's call with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, which follows his conversation with Vladimir Putin on Tuesday. A lot going on on this Tuesday morning.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Good.

[Joe Scarborough]

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Morning Joe. It's March 20th. Everyone doing okay? We're all here. Okay. You made it. Just walked in like two seconds ago.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I did, but you were talking. I've been here since when were you.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, you're not here. No.

[Willie Geist]

1946.

[David Ignatius]

We do a full rehearsal, start to finish of the show.

[Willie Geist]

You're still on that train To Salt Lake City, I think from yesterday.

[Mika Brzezinski]

No, I tell you what. Well, we were talking about the Gambler.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, no, no, no.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Chris and Claire were kind of like, what's going on here?

[Joe Scarborough]

They were a little.

[Mika Brzezinski]

They're not the greatest person. I was with you guys.

[Joe Scarborough]

You got to know when to hold.

[John Heilman]

I was like, I thought.

[Willie Geist]

I thought you guys cut it off a little short. I thought it could have gone.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Thank you.

[Joe Scarborough]

I was Donna Hellman. Seriously.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I didn't realize it till like yesterday. Somebody brought it up, said, I love that thing. We did that two days in a row.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay, now we're on the brief.

[John Heilman]

No.

[David Ignatius]

Crushed out a cigarette, faded off to sleep.

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, my God.

[Mika Brzezinski]

That was it.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So the key line, though, if you're gonna play the game, you gotta learn how to play it right.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay. Unless you're Mike Barnacle watching a baseball game.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

While he's co hosting the show.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, that's doing it right.

[Joe Scarborough]

That was unacceptable.

[Mika Brzezinski]

What's wrong with that?

[Joe Scarborough]

We are gonna bring some decorum to this day.

[Mika Brzezinski]

What is that called? That's called multitasking.

[Joe Scarborough]

Male multitasking.

[David Ignatius]

Oh, there he is.

[Joe Scarborough]

There he is. Male multitasking again.

[Anand Giridharadas]

There's no game today.

[Willie Geist]

What are you doing over there?

[Mika Brzezinski]

What are you watching?

[Joe Scarborough]

You know what he's doing?

[Harriet Hageman]

Maybe in Japan. Watching a game in Japan.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, he's not. He's watching the business brackets going. He's trying to figure out how to use his phone and he keeps texting the wrong person because he can't.

[Willie Geist]

There's a single A game happening in Istanbul right now.

[Mika Brzezinski]

He's watching. Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the co host of our four.

[Mika Brzezinski]

That's when you know something's gone wrong and you're made major. Major league career is when they've sent you down to single A in Istanbul.

[David Ignatius]

Istanbul. Yeah.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Tough road trip too.

[Joe Scarborough]

Contributing writer at the.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You take the bus to Scranton and.

[Willie Geist]

Then, you know, it's the Midnight Express league.

[Mika Brzezinski]

It's a cargo ship.

[David Ignatius]

Down in Syria.

[Joe Scarborough]

What if Hilaria. Bald schedule. I'm not talking when I'm talking, you're not talking, but you gotta do the.

[Harriet Hageman]

Spanish accent when you're.

[Joe Scarborough]

I'll do Polish. Okay. Okay. All right.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Wow.

[Joe Scarborough]

That means something. My mom always said it to my dad when things were okay. NBC News national affairs analyst and partner and chief political columnist at Puck. John Heilman's here. MSNBC political analyst Anand Giridartis. He's publisher of the newsletter the Inc. Available in substack. And columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius. We're all looking for reasons to smile this morning. And we got David to smile. I saw that. It was a slight smile.

[Mika Brzezinski]

David smile. But that's because. What, you guess one of his best pieces.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Was covering the single A.

[David Ignatius]

No, he was the beat writer.

[Mika Brzezinski]

He was the beat writer for a couple years, just back in the 60s.

[David Ignatius]

Yes, he was.

[Mika Brzezinski]

That's how we met him right after we got out of prison.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, can I get to the top story?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Can you?

[Joe Scarborough]

I'm going to.

[Willie Geist]

That's the question.

[Joe Scarborough]

Here we go. We're going to have more of a town hall. You were getting wired up. There was this incredible town hall in Wyoming that were. It was incredible.

[Willie Geist]

It was like a Springsteen show.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Can we see some more of it?

[Willie Geist]

Incredible.

[Joe Scarborough]

You're going to see more of it because it is really a sign of what's happening out there, because the record.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Company just called, gave me a big advance.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right. That definitely didn't happen. All right. President Trump is expected to sign Reinstein Rosalita an executive order.

[Mika Brzezinski]

They called and said, never send those tapes again. It was back in the 1980s.

[Joe Scarborough]

Why did I ask you to come into the New York studio? I'm not sure I do like having you around.

[Mika Brzezinski]

It is wonderful to be with you.

[Joe Scarborough]

It is, yes.

[Jen Psaki]

All right.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So great.

[Joe Scarborough]

We begin now. President Trump is expected to sign an executive order later today that would call for shutting down the Department of Education. According to the White House, Trump will hold an event with education secretary Linda McMahon and direct her to, quote, take all necessary steps to facilitate the closure of the Department of Education and return education authority to the states. To be clear, the president does not actually have the power to formally close the department by himself. That would require an act of Congress. However, Trump can make it nearly impossible for department employees to carry out their work, as shown by McMahon's recent move to cut its workforce in half. With a budget of roughly $270 billion, the Education Department is one of the smallest cabinet level departments, representing just 4% of the U.S. budget. The Department does not dictate what is taught in classrooms. It does, however, oversee how federal money is distributed to schools with high rates of impoverished students and children with disabilities. In addition, the Department oversees roughly $1.6 trillion in student loans, which was a big issue in the Biden administration. So here we go. We can move to the next story. Unless.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, unless somebody like to talk.

[Joe Scarborough]

Anybody have a feeling about this?

[David Ignatius]

Well, as you know, it's not a new idea, Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

We're not shocked?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, because that's what we like in 94, the argument was we're going to take money and power and authority and put it as close to the classrooms as possible. This is an old idea the Department of Education started, I think in 1979, 1980. Ronald Reagan immediately said let's keep, let's keep education on, on state levels and local levels and again push as much money, power and authority there. We've just, you know, just seen though over the past 40 years that actually some coordination from Washington works and a conservative, George W. Bush actually was very effective pushing standards that a lot of people in the education establishment didn't like. But by doing that from Washington D.C. you actually did get scores that went up while again, a lot of people in the education establishment were kicking and screaming. And on top of that they're just, we, we have learned, you know, a lot of states can't, a lot of states can't even be trusted to take Medicaid. A lot of governors can't even be trusted to take Medicaid to take care of their poorest, to take care of middle class families.

[Joe Scarborough]

Before we get to the states. I think it's been so erratic and rash the way they've been making these cuts that you have to wonder if this is the proper. You have to question this.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Right. I will say though, this has been a conservative goal, like you said, an idea for a very long time. But what we found over the years is again, the idea always was give the money, the power, the authority to the states. They would do the right things for their individual states, legislative laboratories. That's just not happening now. Especially again, I use Medicaid as a perfect example where you have middle class Americans in rural America who are watching their hospitals shut down, their nursing homes shut down. You know, 50% of kids in rural America get their health care from Medicaid. And so if you're going to slash funding for Medicaid to impress your base, I can't even imagine what you're going to do with education.

[Harriet Hageman]

Yeah, I mean, I think in the modern incarnation of cutting this, they are revealing something to citizens which is they don't want the most educated citizenry possible because it's not helpful to them. People who can read and understand that climate change is happening are not favorable voter voters for them. People who can read and understand what they're doing to Medicaid, to Social Security, what Elon Musk is doing. The better your reading comprehension is, the more you might not like what this administration is Doing so an educated citizenry is not in their interest and they're coming for it.

[Mika Brzezinski]

It really goes to the divide, John, of maga, the MAGA world. And the divide is the populist vision, right? Yeah. And that populist vision is we're going to help working Americans, we're going to help people that elites have looked past, we're going to help them move up to the middle class, help them become more successful, versus Steve Bannon's side, sort of the technocrats, the billionaire technocrats that really are running this. And so you do have the Steve Bannon versus the Elon Musk, basically civil war going on inside of maga. And this is definitely. This is an example again of just what Anand said, which is, you know, slash, cut, don't even think twice about who you're hurting, what working class Americans in red state America, blue state America, you're hurting.

[Willie Geist]

I mean, I think if you went back to your crowd in 94 and people who were in favor of eliminating the Department of Education, a lot of people had various critiques that were level against the Republican revolution back then, but the notion of like a new federalism applied in a kind of a somewhat philosophically coherent way was like a defensible idea. Right. If you walk around where the guy who's in charge of the whole thing is like brandishing a chainsaw and is indiscriminate across all of these agencies, as Elon Musk has been, it raises the question of whether. Of whether. To Mika's point before, about whether this is a thing that's in line with some real philosophical way of thinking about how to spend money on the national level, or it's just kind of another. It looks like an easy target, basically. And I think to your point about the politics of this, and this is where Steve Bannon, we're here at the table. There's no one in the MAGA movement who's more aware of the number of MAGA voters who are on Medicaid. And that the kind of the classic, the typical stereotype of a lot of right media, which is this is an inner city program for a lot of Democratic voters, most of them were either black or brown, is just not true. If you look at the map of congressional districts and look at who Medicaid affects, that is the political buzzsaw that they're walking into. And one of the interesting questions going forward is how they're going to try to deal with that. What Bannon would say is, we need to take a chainsaw to the Defense Department because we can then sort of say that's, you know, we're taking our own ox. We're also going to cut Medicaid, but.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Without that we're not going to cut taxes for billionaires and multinational tech companies. He would say that as well. And there's a big. And we won't fight war and foreign wars. There's a big chunk of sort of the MAGA world that's there. But the people that are running it.

[Willie Geist]

Yes.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Could not be there. They're billionaires and they're disconnected. I mean, Elon Musk so radically disconnected. He doesn't. Yeah, ask Elon Musk. So, so how does this work when you let Florida or Utah or Ohio run education? You know, back we were, when we were talking about it, if you had asked Jeb Bush, how's it work? Jeb would say, well, here's what we're doing in Florida. If you ask Mitt Romney in Utah, how would you use this money? He'd say this is what we George Voinovich in Ohio, they'd go down the list. That's just a different world. That's a different age, that's a different century. What we're seeing with Elon Musk cuts by chainsaw. There is no method to the madness. It's just cut first and hurt Americans later. That's what's happening. And by the way, as the biggest defense hawk, I mean as the biggest budget hawk of anybody certainly see in Washington D.C. because I was there when we balanced the budget four years in a row, these cuts will not do anything to balance the budget. If you're not willing to say no to tax cuts for billionaires and multinational corporations, if you're not willing to cut at the Pentagon, if you're not willing to look at wealthier Americans with Social Security and start talking about means testing, millionaires needing Social Security, billionaires needing social, come on, it's ridiculous. But they're not going to talk about that. They're going to go after food programs for poor kids. They're going to take lunch, breakfast and lunch away from poor kids. But they will not take tax cuts away from billionaires. If you're the Democratic, I just got to say, if you're the Democratic Party and you can't win, you know, please go sell used cars cuz you're in the wrong business.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah.

[Anand Giridharadas]

And that tax cut.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Donald Meer, what say you?

[Willie Geist]

Yes, let me chime in under 15 minutes today before Joe started banging the table.

[Anand Giridharadas]

He's ready. The tax cut fight obviously Is on is what's on the horizon. That's what the Trump team is building towards. You're right. I mean, Musk is cutting so fast and so indiscriminately that not only has he had to say like, okay, well, we've made some mistakes, but some of the highest people in the administration have.

[Mika Brzezinski]

J.D.

[Anand Giridharadas]

Vance over the weekend was like, yes, Musk has made some errors here. There are some government workers who do good jobs. We want them to stay.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So that.

[Anand Giridharadas]

That's the world of chaos that is enveloping all these decisions, including ones that are a longer held conservative priority, like eliminating the Department of Education. And there is. There's a real sense here of what happens when this goes back to the states, particularly for who have learning disabilities, who have learning challenges, special needs students. Those are the ones who may suffer here without these protections. And what's also, let's think of the timing here. We're coming out of a period of extraordinary learning loss because of COVID and because of remote schooling. And now, potentially, you're setting the education systems across this country into more disruptive times. Who knows how that will affect us at the worst?

[J.D. Vance]

Exactly right.

[David Ignatius]

And by the way, this brings it all the way back to how we came in the show when you had Harriet Hageman, the congressman in Laramie, Wyoming, getting screamed at, loudly booed with chants of deport Elon Musk from her Republican audience. People in that room. That's what happens when you cut 20% of the VA. That's what happens when you cut 50% of the Department of Education. On. And that's what happens when you talk about cutting Medicaid. These are real cuts that impact real people's lives, whether they're Democrats or Republicans. And every time we see one of these Republican town halls, they have an excuse. They say, well, they're busing in Democrats to yell at us at some point. You can't say that when it's town hall after town hall of your voters, of your constituents screaming at you.

[Lindsey Graham]

Yeah.

[Harriet Hageman]

And, you know, I just. It's March 20th. We're exactly two months into this administration. And I actually think from my point of view, there's something somewhat.

[Mika Brzezinski]

We all take a deep breath. We're only two months. Isn't that crazy?

[Harriet Hageman]

It's also the spring equinox, so that's good.

[David Ignatius]

That's right.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Okay, well, that's fine. All right, go ahead.

[Harriet Hageman]

Two months in.

[Anand Giridharadas]

That was a body blow.

[Willie Geist]

I need a paper stack.

[Harriet Hageman]

We're two months in, but we're six years Older. It's very math.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Is he incredibly weird?

[Harriet Hageman]

I had black hair in January.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Where's Rod Sterling? This is.

[Harriet Hageman]

But two months in. I think we can take a little bit of stock. And the one hopeful thing, I think people out there need some measure of hope is that they could have run a playbook that we've seen throughout history and other countries of a very popular authoritarianism.

[J.D. Vance]

Right.

[Harriet Hageman]

They could have stuck to the stuff that, like, people are thirsting for, even if it's illegal. Even. But this is not that they are centering a bunch of things that are extremely unpopular. This is like layoff authoritarianism. Right. This is cutting rural hospitals authoritarianism. This is cutting the VA authoritarianism. So it's a very weird thing where there's. This is the world's richest man marauding with a chainsaw authoritarianism.

[Mika Brzezinski]

A chainsaw.

[Harriet Hageman]

A chainsaw.

[Joe Scarborough]

I mean, he gave, again, I say again to Democrats, gave up that visual.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So swear to God, if I'm a Democratic congressman, I've already cut my ads.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Mika Brzezinski]

If I'm running against a Republican opponent, it's already cut.

[Willie Geist]

It's a gold chain.

[Harriet Hageman]

But I think they'll find a gold chainsaw.

[Joe Scarborough]

That is not the chainsaw.

[Willie Geist]

My mom.

[J.D. Vance]

A gold.

[Willie Geist]

A gold.

[Mika Brzezinski]

A gold leaf chainsaw. I mean, the music goes slowly right here, babies. Yeah. No, I mean, come on. Commercial rights itself. Itself on writes itself.

[Harriet Hageman]

I mean, I'm sure the Democrats will find a way to make that commercial boring. Like, don't just assume anything. This is not a place for assumptions.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You don't think the music coming to.

[Joe Scarborough]

Be like, they'll put it in sloth.

[Mika Brzezinski]

We're not here saying, yes, that chainsaws are bad.

[Harriet Hageman]

Chainsaws actually do have two sides. So there's two sides to every.

[Mika Brzezinski]

There's two sides to every chainsaw. No, they've got like 87 billionaires running the place. They're gutting the VA. They're gutting the Department of Education.

[Harriet Hageman]

We're going to see coming into these midterms, if they can't make the most extraordinary story this year and next year.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah.

[Harriet Hageman]

About taking back America from this. They just. They deserve a permanent full retirement and just get a whole new.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Give them all to France.

[Joe Scarborough]

I mean, go to politics here because we've got to get to Ukraine with Willie. But Chuck Schumer is move to actually. I mean, I don't know why it's so unpopular within the Democratic Party. I understand a lot of people wanted to fight, fight, fight, but this is leaving it wide open for everyone to understand. Who did what here? Who was in charge, who made the decisions and who used the chainsaw. There's no question they should be able to come up with incredible material.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And the thing is, Willie, as we said yesterday, you have have Republicans on the Hill. They were saying, we were just setting up the Democrats. You have people in the White House saying, we were just setting up the Democrats. We weren't going to shut down the government. We are setting this up so they'd shut down the government. And as Jonathan has reported and other people have reported, Republicans said, and once they shut it down, yeah, it's over. We were never going to open it back up again. We were just going to, you know, let Donald Trump and Elon Musk spend the next couple of years deciding what was, you know, necessary and what wasn't necessary. This really shouldn't be a. Democrats should focus on the chainsaw. Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

And the future.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The tax cuts for billionaires and multinational corporations while the VA is getting slashed.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah. While you have veterans who served in our wars yelling at their constituents about, where did my job go? From the guy with the chainsaw.

[Jen Psaki]

Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yep.

[David Ignatius]

There you go. All right, let's turn to Ukraine country says it is ready now to implement a partial ceasefire with Russia regarding energy targets. This comes after President Trump's phone call with Ukrainian President Zelensky yesterday and Trump's call with Putin on Tuesday. There is some confusion this morning over whether civilian infrastructure is included in that agreement, something Zelensky referred to in a social media post following the call with President Trump. In a statement put out yesterday by National Security Adviser Mike Waltz and Secretary of State Marco Rubio, there was no mention of civilian infrastructure. White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt also did not answer questions asking for clarification on that. Rubio and Waltz's statement referenced several times. Zelensky thanked President Trump for his leadership and expressed gratitude for the United States support. Trump posted on social media that he had a very good call with Zelensky. So, David Ignatius, a tale of two phone calls we had two days ago. Zelensky. Excuse me, excuse me. President Trump talking to President Putin yesterday. President Trump with President Zelensky. Where do we land after all this conversation?

[Lindsey Graham]

So, Willie, we land at the beginning of a negotiation. This very small initial step to each side agree not to hit energy infrastructure facilities. And exactly what that means is still being worked out. Zelensky suggested that Ukraine will enumerate each building that it understands is included within this description. And then if the Russians attack those buildings, Ukraine will correspondingly attack similar buildings. In Russia. But it's a slow start to a process that's going to take clearly many weeks. President Trump had talked about this as a quick move toward peace. We're not going to see that. I think the fact that the phone call between Trump and Zelensky after the disastrous meeting they had in the Oval Office went so well yesterday is a positive sign. And it's also interesting that there are beginnings to be rumbles in Washington of ways of applying sanctions against Russia, which was quite strident in rejecting most of the terms that would accompany a real peace agreement, saying US has to cut off all military aid and intelligence to Ukraine. There's beginning to be a pushback. Senator Lindsey Graham has said he's preparing a package of sanctions against Russia which would be available to, to use quickly if Russia continued to resist President Trump's pressure to make these negotiations work. So, you know, early days, signs of much more willingness, enthusiasm for the peace process from Ukraine, Zelenskyy than from Putin. And the ball, in a sense, is in the court of the moderator, the mediator, President Trump, who now has to decide, am I going to be tough on, tough on Russia, tough on Putin to get them to change their terms? Am I going to exceed? Or are we just going to kind of drift back into the frozen conflict world that has been permanent for Ukraine since really, since 2014?

[Mika Brzezinski]

So, David, do you consider this to be a good first step?

[Lindsey Graham]

So it's a first step. I wouldn't characterize it, Joe, as super positive, but President Trump has gotten the ball rolling. The person who's going to be the principal mediator with Putin, Steve Witkoff, gets good marks. When I talk to former Biden administration officials who've gotten to know him, they said this is a guy who's a pretty tough negotiator. Public doesn't know much about him, but I think people are buckling in for what they recognize will be a long, difficult process. The early gee whiz talk. You know, I'll be receiving the Nobel Peace Prize in a couple months. That's giving way to a more realistic assessment of negotiations.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, and if you look at what Marco Rubio, not Marco Rubio, what Lindsey Graham's doing right now as far as putting together sanctions, power package, that's something that's going to be absolutely necessary if they're going to push Vladimir Putin closer to a deal that's actually workable with Ukraine.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, we'll be continuing this. Also still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to have the latest on the fallout over the Trump administration's decision to deport hundreds of Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador. What the attorney general is saying about the judge who ordered the Justice Department to provide more information on those flights. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back.

[Jen Psaki]

This podcast is supported by Planned Parenthood Federation of America. Planned Parenthood Federation of America exists so all people can get access to the sexual and reproductive care and education they need. Planned Parenthood organizations advocate advocate for health equity and policies that allow people the freedom to control their own bodies, lives and futures. More than 2 million patients a year rely on Planned Parenthood health center services like STI testing and treatment, birth control, gender affirming care, abortion, cancer screenings and more. Reproductive health care and rights are under attack from public officials who are out of step with the will of the vast majority of Americans. The constitutional right to abortion has been stolen, and politicians in 47 states have introduced bills that would block people from getting the sexual and reproductive productive care they need. Planned Parenthood knows that equitable access to health care, including safe, legal abortion, is a human right. Right now, Planned Parenthood needs your help to protect access to health care. Donate today by visiting plannedparenthood.org protect It's President Trump's first 100 days, and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines. What issue matters to the Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the president's policies and promises.

[Joe Scarborough]

Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again?

[Jen Psaki]

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. The first 100 days, bills are passed, executive orders are signed and presidencies are divided. And for Donald Trump's first 100 days, Rachel Maddow is on MSNBC five nights a week.

[Joe Scarborough]

Now is the time, so we're gonna do it.

[Jen Psaki]

Providing her unique insight and analysis during this critical time.

[Joe Scarborough]

How do we strategically align ourselves to this moment of information, this moment of transition in our country?

[Jen Psaki]

The Rachel Maddow show weeknights at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Joe Scarborough]

Back 27 past the hour. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headline There is encouraging news when it comes to one of the country's most significant health threats. New data shows a 25% drop in drug overdose deaths compared to the same period the year before. That's in part due to a decline in the use of opioids Researchers say the numbers suggest a return to pre Covid rates after the pandemic worsened. An already out of control crisis. The MTA is doing away with the MetroCard on New York City's public transit system. The agency will stop selling the cards on December 31st. So instead of swiping a MetroCard at the turnstile, riders will now pay with digital wallets on their smartphones or by tapping a credit or debit card. There's also a tap and go option using cards sold at vending machines.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Heilman. I don't like it. I don't like it.

[Willie Geist]

I don't like it at all.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Wow.

[Willie Geist]

I don't like it at all.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's a big change.

[Willie Geist]

It's like an end of, the end of an era, really. Those cards are, you know, totemic and.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yes, exactly what I was going to say.

[Anand Giridharadas]

That token, the Metro cards.

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, my God.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah, the token.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Pull it out of your lap.

[Joe Scarborough]

And masterpiece by Austrian painter Gustav Klimt is now on sale for more than $16 million.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Willie's entire employer by this guy.

[Joe Scarborough]

It was created in 1897, but was only recently unearthed and deemed genuine. It was covered in dirt when the current owners walked into a gallery. To find out more about it.

[David Ignatius]

Give it to you for 15, Joe.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay, a couple of those things. All right. As we mentioned at the top of the show, Republican Congresswoman Harriet Hageman of Deep Red Wyoming faced a rowdy crowd during a town hall last night.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, but Wyoming's a very progressive state.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah. So hard to bust people into it.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Bus people in.

[Willie Geist]

Democrats not organized enough to bust a lot of people into Wyoming. That's a pretty, that's a pretty strain. And Bush out in the middle of nowhere.

[Mika Brzezinski]

They're not organized enough to get sandwich orders. Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

At like a 7 person nice to the Democrats.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So, I mean, let alone bus people in from Berkeley or.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay. Last night, almost 500 constituents packed the room and aired their frustrations, with some of the loudest reaction coming when Hageman spoke about her support for Doge. Doge is not dismantling Social Security. And even with reconciliation, we are not allowed to touch Social Security. The work that I have specifically been doing. I am on the Judiciary Committee and the Natural Resources Committee. I worked for the U.S. department of Agriculture helping Wyoming family farmers deal with drought until I was fired a month ago in the mass firings. And despite only having the highest marks in my performance review, in a state where so many farmers rely on government programs for drought and disaster relief, Trump's plans to cut these programs and the people who administer them, coupled with the tariffs, will decimate Wyoming farms and rural communities. What are you doing about that? I disagree. I disagree. I come from the ag community. I'm well aware of what kind of problem programs are out there. It's so bizarre to me how obsessed you are with federal government. But here's the thing is you guys are gonna have a heart attack if you don't calm down. I'm sorry. Your. Your hysteria is just with you all the time. How validating. Don't do that, Willie.

[Mika Brzezinski]

For the uninitiated, who doesn't know Wyoming politics, they weren't saying boo. They were saying hey to make. It's an old baseball joke, Bruce. Except, no, it wasn't Bruce. So. So I don't really follow politics.

[David Ignatius]

Bring it up to speed.

[Mika Brzezinski]

In my. In my business, you don't really have to. But Wyoming. Did that go for. For McGovern? 72. Did it go like, how liberal is Wyoming Union?

[David Ignatius]

And there are 50 of them. Last check, 50 gave more of its vote as a percentage to Donald Trump than did Wyoming.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Really?

[David Ignatius]

71% for Donald Trump? Something around 70 last time around. Now I said, there's always an excuse. So afterward, Congresswoman Hageman and her staff said, well, this was held in Laramie, which is a college town full of college kids, leftists, hippies, all Democrats. If you've ever been to the University of Wyoming, it's not. I wouldn't call it a hippie school necessarily. It's a beautiful place, great school.

[Willie Geist]

There's only one congressional district in Wyoming. The whole state's one congressional district. And so that Harriet Hegman, just for those of you who don't remember, she's the woman who beat Liz Cheney in the primary and went on to take that seat. So there's a particular kind of poignancy, too.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. Wow.

[Harriet Hageman]

When you're telling your voters to calm down, you may not be.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And don't be hysterical.

[Joe Scarborough]

You're calling voters hysterical?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah.

[Harriet Hageman]

Good luck in a couple.

[Willie Geist]

Everyone just sit down and shut up for a second. I have some things to say.

[Joe Scarborough]

I don't agree.

[David Ignatius]

We're seeing this again and again.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's going to happen to you where.

[David Ignatius]

These Republican congressmen women are standing in a room across from their voters, as you did a million times, and taking the side of Elon Musk, saying, I support Doge. I support Elon Musk over what you're telling me right now.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I'm telling you there's nothing that your constituents like More than when you show independence and you say, as I did, I disagree with Bill Clinton here, here, here, here, and here. It's not good for you. I disagree with Newt Gingrich and Bob Dole and Republicans and all of these different places. I mean, if it all about helping constituents, this is actually an easy call and you actually can stand up to Elon Musk and live to tell about it. The perfect example of it politically live to tell about it, perfect example was in the transition. Elon Musk came out and I think Donald Trump did too, came out and told Republicans, you are going to vote for this CR or we're going to target you. Elon said this, we're going to destroy you and you will not be elected in kind of something along those lines. 38 voted no. And they said, basically, screw you. I know my constituents better than you know my constituents. I'm going to do what I need to do. I mean, that's the thing. If you have relationship with your constituents, you can talk to them. You can go to those meetings and you can go. I agree with you. Veterans should not have, you know, their VA benefits slashed. I agree with you. Veterans that have served in our country's uniform for 20 years should not be fired randomly by a billionaire immigrant from South Africa who doesn't seem to understand the most basic concepts of Madisonian democracy. You can say that and win.

[Anand Giridharadas]

Mr. John, that's the example of Republicans who have defied them so far. But it can't be overstated. There's real fear among Republicans on Capitol Hill of it's always been, you don't want to cross Trump, you don't want to get the tweet taking you down or endorsing your primary opponent. But now it's also Musk because he has the money to bankroll in. That's just, it's a new phenomenon. Some Republicans have told me this last week or so, an unlimited campaign checkbook to take you down. And there is fear of crossing them. And that is what we're seeing time and time again, where they're forced to download, defend the most unpopular cuts in red, deep, deep red districts because they.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Don'T want to cross the John Heilman, though the White House knows Elon's numbers are going down. I said to somebody close to the White House, he's a, he's a heat shield. I understand he's a heat shield for the president. And inside the White House, there's a no, he's not really, because he is. Low numbers are starting to impact the president.

[Willie Geist]

And look, some people can sort of see the end game here where he starts to become more of an albatross than he's worth keeping around at the moment. Though, to Lemire's point, if you're Harriet Hegman, you are the beneficiary. You've seen what happens when Donald Trump and the MAGA movement turn against Liz, one of the most rock ribbed conservatives in the party. So you know the power of getting primaried. That's how you got there. You can imagine why she's scared. I'm not having any sympathy for her. She's taking the wrong positions here on a lot of things and she's going against her own constituency. But she has a very vivid memory of what it means to get crosswise with Trump.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The job's just not. And the job's just not worth it. Allowing veterans, allowing children, allowing the elderly to lose their health care and nursing homes like you. Take a place like Laramie, Wyoming, those citizens are so dependent on Medicaid funding for their hospitals, for their primary providers. I bet you 40%, 30, 40% of children, their health care comes from Medicaid. All of these things that they're slashing the Department of Education. I guarantee you it's a lot, a lot more important to them than it is in, like, Manhattan.

[Harriet Hageman]

This is a.

[Joe Scarborough]

You put a piece of gum in your mouth.

[Mika Brzezinski]

No, I didn't.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, I did.

[Mika Brzezinski]

When?

[Joe Scarborough]

When I just saw that.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I'm distracted. That wasn't gum. Are you.

[Joe Scarborough]

Did you take drugs?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Anyway, we got to.

[Harriet Hageman]

I mean, this is a really big country with great philosophical variety. People feel all kinds of things. That's normal. People in rural areas think differently. That's all fine. No one in America voted for apartheid era Elon.

[Joe Scarborough]

Nobody to be in charge of anything.

[Harriet Hageman]

No one in America. It's not conservative what he's doing. It's not libertarian what he's doing. It is personalistic politics where a wannabe autocrat and Donald Trump has outsourced the slashing and burning of the republic to apartheid era Ellen. And no one wants this and they are gonna find out.

[Willie Geist]

Anand, do not discount the Afrikaner vote in Laramie.

[Mika Brzezinski]

By the way, if you want to take on an interesting take on Elon Musk, which you're saying, you must see what Bill Burr is going around saying about Elon Musk.

[Harriet Hageman]

Good. Put him in charge of DemComms.

[Joe Scarborough]

Thank you, John. John, spit it out. Coming up, we're just a few hours away from the official start of March Madness. MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre and ESPN college basketball analyst Jay Bailis join us to break down this big the brackets. This is big on Morning Joe.

[J.D. Vance]

JC.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The last thing you want to.

[David Ignatius]

Hear when you need your auto insurance.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options.

[Jen Psaki]

Which is why with USA Auto Insur, you'll get great service that is easy.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And reliable, all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today. Restrictions apply.

[Jen Psaki]

USA it's President Trump's first 100 days and MSNBC's Alex Wagner will be covering it all from the front lines. What issue matters to you the most? Join her as she travels the country to talk to the people at the center of the President's policies and promises.

[Joe Scarborough]

Do you think now that he's pardoned everybody he can count on this group of people again?

[Jen Psaki]

Search for Trumpland with Alex Wagner wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to Listen ad Free MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Joe Scarborough]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues, but as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Jen Psaki]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.

[J.D. Vance]

Stretches where.

[Mika Brzezinski]

They showed some good fight but Mountaineers had just too much. Yeah, just losing way too much with.

[J.D. Vance]

Roger not being on the floor.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Nice cuto unleashed. Now this night all about The Mountaineers from Mount St. Mary's their best season as a Division 1 program just got better.

[J.D. Vance]

Both teams are out of fouls.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Texas is in a double bonus from this point forward. He misses the second. Xavier's got it. Texas trying to get to him. Two seconds and there was a knockout punch.

[David Ignatius]

Xavier pulling off a big comeback, in fact its biggest of the season last night erasing a 13 point deficit to beat Texas 8680 and advance out of that first four as the 11 seed now set to face six seeded Illinois. Go Illini. You also saw some of Mount St. Mary's there. Small school in Maryland 8372 winner over America out of D.C. in last night's battle of 16 seeds. That earns the Mountaineers a shot against Duke. Top seeded Duke.

[Mika Brzezinski]

How great is college basketball?

[David Ignatius]

Oh, it's the best.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Oh my God.

[David Ignatius]

And two nights ago you had a great finish in the 16 game. It's been great already with that. Now the full Tournament bracket has been set. The remaining 64 teams prepare to take the court in 32 games over the next two days. The Madness tips off just a few hours from now. Let's bring in the host of Pablo Torre finds out out on Meadowlark Media, MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre and college basketball analyst for ESPN and ESPN Insider, Jay Billis. This is huge, too.

[Mika Brzezinski]

How did we get.

[David Ignatius]

Jay, how did we.

[John Heilman]

Is this like, a gleaming.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Is this. Is this, like, nil? Wait, did we have to pay him? Like, is this college? Yeah, yeah.

[John Heilman]

A Ferrari worth it?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, worth it.

[David Ignatius]

He knows how to play the game these days.

[Mika Brzezinski]

He knows how to play it, right? You got to play it the game.

[David Ignatius]

He does.

[Joe Scarborough]

When to hold them.

[David Ignatius]

So, Jay, we're so happy to get to sit and talk to you. We do this about once a year. Great to see you, man. Let's talk about the tournament, the teams you see as favorites. Auburn got the number one overall seed, but for my money, a Duke team that you know a little bit about with a somewhat healthy now Cooper Flag look has been very, very tough to beat through these last three months or so.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, Willie, Auburn has been the best team throughout the course of the regular season. Right. With Duke. Duke, the most talented team. They're the biggest team in the country, but they're young in spots. Cooper Flagg is right there with Janai Broom of Auburn for national player of the year. He was injured in the ACC tournament. He sprained his ankle. He's expected to play in the first round game against Mount St. Mary's on Friday. And they've got. But they've got other young players. And that's really the only question mark about Duke winning a national championship is are they experienced in enough at key positions? I think that they are, but there's a lot of competition out there and nobody right now is playing better than or deeper than or bigger than or has better guards than Florida. Florida is a juggernaut right now and. And I would have picked St. John's to go to the Final Four if not for being in the same bracket as Florida.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah, Florida has looked great. I think a lot of people open their eyes to them over that SEC tournament. They're really good. You mentioned St. John's want to ask you about a lot of talk about them, not just because they're a good, tough team, but of course because of their coach, Rick Pitino. They went through, won the regular season title, won the Big east title. Feeling like the 80s again. Florida, it sounds like you think might be in their way but how good the St. John's how far can they go?

[J.D. Vance]

They're legit, Willie. They have outstanding players at the key positions. You know their point guard is Kadari Richmond, he transferred in from Seton Hall. RJ Lewis is their wing leading scorer, over 18 a game. And their, their big man Subiegiofor transferred in from Kansas and he's been spectacular, especially over the last 15 games. And Rick Pitino's done another great job with this team. In the second year of every stop he's had with college teams, they've taken a huge jump. And that's been the case at St. John's as you know better than anybody, the Garden's been full. New York city's energized over St. John's again. But because they can defend at a really high level, they're not a great shooting team, but they can still make shots. But because they defend so well and they're so relentless defensively and on the glass, there's not a team out there they cannot beat. It's just there are a few teams out there that I think are better that would win in a seven game series. But in a one off like the NCAA tournament, there's nobody they kept not be.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And again they're going to be running into a buzz saw like Florida. I mean and again as an Alabama grad and somebody that's followed Alabama basketball this year, Florida has just destroyed us both. Both times they played us, they, they look great. All right, so listen. Yes, I love Chris Mullins gym rat. Loved watching him in the 80s. I love whenever St. John's wins, it's. It gets so exciting around the city. Right?

[John Heilman]

Yeah. I mean I just want to hold up the back cover of the post.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I was just gonna say clearly real image of Rick. But, but that said though, does St. John's not really. Is that not exhibit one and how broken NCAA sports. I'm serious, whether you're talking about football, whether you're talking about basketball, just how broken this system is, it's a different game.

[John Heilman]

I want to also just separate art from the artist here. Rick Patino is just one of the most scandalized characters in the history of college sports. He's also one of its all time greats and this great coach and this Joe to your point, is his time. The era of nil, the era of the transfer portal, the stuff that makes coaches scared. It's still fascinating this season. Some of that anxiety about this game is different. It's not going to be the same. Well, it turns out that College basketball, broadly, has a lot of NBA prospects in it. We've seen them. We'll see them all month. It has. The coaches, who we've known to succeed in the era before this stuff was legal, are succeeding yet again. Again. And so Rick Patino, when it comes to the new rules, being some of the old rules he used to break. Yeah, absolutely. The story, and I have St. John's as much as Jay Bilis is a guy who watches this stuff so much more closely than me, I got St. John's winning the whole thing.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Wow.

[John Heilman]

He's an unkillable vampire God. And I say that with the kindest of intentions.

[Mika Brzezinski]

What about Patino going up against Caliper? That's what I was. Come on. That's what I wanted. Like Sith Lord versus Sith Lord.

[John Heilman]

History is doing red lightsabers clashing.

[J.D. Vance]

That's right.

[Mika Brzezinski]

History is doing a course correction here. We've got Patina versus Calipari, hopefully in the second round. Yes. That's the greatest matchup in coaching history.

[J.D. Vance]

Given the past.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I would put John Wooden probably in there, but go ahead.

[John Heilman]

Yeah, there is. There is in that matchup, two guys who were hailed, criticized as villains, both being guys who are now plucky underdogs who have steered programs back, who may not coincidentally, for Mike Barnacle Mileage, have some Massachusetts backgrounds. Just coincidentally.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, which is why Barnica loves him so much. Pablo, you need to go right, don't you?

[John Heilman]

Well, I gotta get on a flight, but if you want to hear a pick before I do, please, please, please give me Jay Bilis again.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Jay.

[John Heilman]

I've seen Jay's bracket. Jay is the preeminent college basketball authority.

[Mika Brzezinski]

He's brilliant.

[John Heilman]

He's got all chalk in the Final Four. Jay, Jay. I know he watches these teams. He's like. I cannot rationally justify not picking the four one see seeds. I got Alabama State upsetting Auburn. Can I go out on that? Can I go out. Can I go out on a prediction like that?

[Anand Giridharadas]

Yeah, you're right.

[Mika Brzezinski]

It's time for you.

[John Heilman]

They treated Galileo this way.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

They're kicking you out.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You know, I don't even know where to go from there. Okay, I'm sorry. Hey, Pablo, really quickly, before we let you know, because, listen, I. I've got to protect your correct career. Yeah, I don't.

[John Heilman]

This isn't live.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I don't know. We'll let this out. We'll fix it. Tell us about Elon Musk's connection with the tournament and then you can.

[John Heilman]

So everybody on X the Everything app has been seeing that if you win the top prize in Elon Musk's bracket contest, you get to go to Mars.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Oh, great.

[John Heilman]

You get to go to Mars. And so on my show, Pablo Torre finds out we interviewed a NASA scientist who works at a department, not coincidentally, that is currently pretty fraught by layoffs and various other underminings of language around climate and otherwise. And she points out that maybe it's not the best idea for the party that is simultaneously very afraid of, I don't know, Haiti, the New York City subway system. Maybe that party also should not be advocating that we invest in a planet that literally cannot support. Support life.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah.

[John Heilman]

Are we just saying maybe. Maybe that would be a problem.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Okay, there you go. You know, I think we're just gonna leave it there. William Faulkner sitting cross legged on the floor, stoned. MSNBC contributor. Thank you. Number one overall seed. But hey, Jay, I think we, I think we, we need a palate cleanser here. So why don't we talk about another top seed in Houston? And I like you, Pablo. Thank you so much.

[John Heilman]

I gotta catch my flag again.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Hey, Jake, tell us about Houston and how far can they go?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, first of all, I'm a little concerned about Pablo getting held up by TSA because he's clearly unstable. Picking Alabama State over, over Auburn.

[Joe Scarborough]

Don't ask about that.

[J.D. Vance]

Yeah, well, Houston is. They lead the nation every year in playing hard under Kelvin Sampson. They are spectacular on the defensive end. They trap ball screens, they trap along the post. They call it monster. When they're going to trap, they call it monster. But they're, they're better offensively this year. L.J. cryer and Emanuel Sharp are great shooters. They shoot 40% from three. They're not the fastest tempo team, but over the last several years, they've been among the winningest teams in college basketball. I think they would have gone to the Final Four last year had Jamal Shed their, their leader and their point guard not been injured in the first half against Duke. I think they would have ultimately won that game and gone to the Final Four. But this year, their Final Four, good. They have a difficult draw. They could wind up playing, I think, Gonzaga in the second round, which is certainly not easy because Gonzaga can really score. And as a, as an, in the 8, 9 game, that's not a, that's not an opponent you want to see. But, but Houston's legit. They have the, they have the goods to, to win and to reach a Final Four and perhaps win the national championship. I would just favor teams like, like Duke and Auburn and Florida over Houston, but it's not by much.

[David Ignatius]

So, Jay, we've got five or so hours until these games start. A lot of people last minute filling out the brackets. We've talked about the big boys. What are the handful of teams you're looking at who could be those dark horses, those Cinderellas, who maybe not win the national championship but get out to the sweet 16?

[J.D. Vance]

Well, if you're looking for, yeah, sweet 16 teams, I mean, certainly the top four seeds are capable of that and favored to do that, that. But there are a few teams outside that, like Colorado State has a really good draw. They play Memphis in the first round. They've got a great player named Clifford who averages about 19 points, 10 rebounds a game. They're actually favored in that game against Memphis. And that bracket actually is pretty, that sub region is pretty favorable for Colorado State. Utah State has a, I think, a very good chance to beat ucla. They can shoot it. They're, they're very talented and they've got a number of players that played on lower levels that are very hungry. Yale last year beat Auburn in the first round and they've got Texas A and M. This year they've got a shooter named John Pulikitis. I can't wait for Charles Barkley to have to pronounce that on the air, but Pulikitis had 28 last year against Auburn. He had 23 against Purdue earlier this year. And Yale is really good. The trendy pick this year is UC San Diego, in their first year of eligibility for the term tournament. They are, they are going against Michigan. And so a lot of people are picking them because they can force a lot of turnovers. And they're a very good team. They've got a kid named Hayden Gray, went to Azusa Pacific, transferred in. He leads the nation in steals. So they do force a lot of turnovers. And they've got their leading scorer. Best player is named Aniwa Newa, Tate Jones and Charles Barkley and Shaq are going to have a great time with that one.

[Anand Giridharadas]

Jay. Lastly and briefly, everyone knows Cooper Flag, likely the first overall pick in this year's NBA draft. Give us another player or two that we should be watching for this weekend, the next couple of weeks. Who will also have be called on stage in the draft in a few months from now.

[J.D. Vance]

Well, Walter Clayton Jr. At Florida is an outstanding player. I mean, he's just a bucket getter and oddly enough, he played at Iona. He's from Florida and he was a football Player in high school, recruited by a bunch of big time football schools. Wound up at Iona playing for Rick Petit and they're in the same bracket so they could wind up in the Elite Eight playing against one another. Auburn has Janai Broom who along with Cooper Flagg of Duke is the favorite for national player of the year and has been spectacular. And Joe certainly knows Mark Sears at Alabama. The lefty who's basically the Jalen Brunson of college basketball right now and just an outstanding player. Michigan State is a dangerous his team. They're not as good a shooting team as Tom Ezzo's had, but they get to the free throw line, they really guard. And Jace Richardson, left hander is, is their, you know, top scorer over the last 10, 12 games. He's Jason Richardson's son, a really dynamic guard. And Tom Izzo has done a great job with this team. I didn't think they were going to be this good at the beginning of the year. I saw them quite a bit and, and they, they've matured into a deep, really good basketball team. They're not as dynamic as they've been in past. Studded.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Right.

[J.D. Vance]

But, but they're legit.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Let's go around really quickly. Pablo thinks St. St. John's is going to win it all. Who do you think? Mike? I am hopelessly in the side of Catholic schools.

[J.D. Vance]

I got Gonzaga doing it.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The whole thing. Okay, the whole thing. That's an eight seat.

[Anand Giridharadas]

I'm going to take peeking at the end here. I'm going to go with Florida to.

[David Ignatius]

Win it if Cooper flag's ankle is healthy.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Duke, yeah, the same. I've got to say Florida, I think Florida could, I think Florida can do it.

[Joe Scarborough]

Mika, I'll just, I'll go with Pablo.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Never, never go. You know what? That ends up bad every time.

[David Ignatius]

She likes Alabama State.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I guess she likes Alabama State. You know, I actually, I think Duke's probably going to win it, but I'm going to pick Florida. Jay, what do you think? You pick.

[J.D. Vance]

I've got Florida. I've got. Okay, yeah, they're, they're ridiculously good and, but you know, you know how this goes. It's a one and out tournament. Anybody can get clipped. But if this were a seven game series, I would take Florida. Heartbeat.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I will say Duke looks great, Florida looks great, Auburn looks great. At times all of them look unbeatable, which means they're all going to lose in the first, second round. Which is why we love Martin so much. Guy, thank you so much.

[David Ignatius]

Jay. We could talk to you all day. We probably rather do that than what we're about to talk about. So good to see a college basketball. And for ESPN and ESPN Insider, the great Jill Jay Bilis, who can go deep on any team in the tournament.

[Joe Scarborough]

Thank you, Jay.

[Mika Brzezinski]

As he just proved. Did you know Jay's a practicing law?

[David Ignatius]

I know, right?

[Anand Giridharadas]

Thanks, Jay.

[Joe Scarborough]

We're going to speak with.

[Mika Brzezinski]

He's a Renaissance man. M. He's a Renaissance man.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yes. Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

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