Morning Joe 3/25/25

Summary

Morning Joe Summary – March 25, 2025

Hosts: Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Willie Geist
Guests: David Ignatius, Jeffrey Goldberg (Atlantic Editor-in-Chief), Jonathan Lemire, Ali Vitale, Eugene Robinson, David French
Release Date: March 25, 2025

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I. Security Breach: Leaked War Plans via Signal App

Overview: The episode opened with a major national security scandal involving top officials from the Trump administration who inadvertently shared classified war plans through a group chat on the encrypted Signal app. The leak was reported by Jeffrey Goldberg, editor-in-chief of The Atlantic, raising serious concerns about operational security within the administration.

Key Discussions:

• Inappropriate Use of Signal:
  Joe Scarborough questioned the rationale behind using Signal, a commercially available encrypted messaging app not sanctioned for classified communications.

  Joe Scarborough [01:00]: "This whole Trump administration is filled with lackeys and incompetent cronies."

• Implications for National Security:
  The group chat included high-ranking officials such as Vice President J.D. Vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. The exchange detailed precise information about weapon packages, targets, and timing of strikes against Yemeni Houthis.

  Jonathan Lemire [07:12]: "This is one of the most stunning national security stories we've had in decades."

• Administrative Response and Accountability:
  There was significant backlash regarding the lack of accountability, with critics arguing that loyalty to Trump overshadowed standard security protocols. Defense Secretary Hegseth denied the use of the group chat for war plans, despite confirmations from the National Security Council.

  Eugene Robinson [10:54]: "It really is a key moment that says to the Trump administration, where the Trump administration looks to America and tells us, do they have any standards at all other than loyalty to Donald Trump?"

• Double Standards in Handling Leaks:
  Comparisons were drawn to the Clinton administration's handling of classified information, highlighting perceived double standards within the Republican leadership.

  David French [10:54]: "They behaved as if those rules aren't for us senior people who are going to take the convenience of this app and use it."

Notable Quotes:

• Joe Scarborough [05:03]: "Privacy text experts say signals. Encrypted messaging is more secure, conventional texting, but of course can be hacked and certainly is not cleared for classified information."
• Eugene Robinson [11:47]: "It says to the military that loyalty to Trump is the most important thing."

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II. Legal Challenges: Alien Enemies Act and Deportations

Overview: The discussion shifted to the Trump administration's controversial use of the Alien Enemies Act to deport Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador without due process. A federal appeals judge criticized the administration's actions as severe violations of legal standards.

Key Discussions:

• Judicial Criticism:
  Judge James Boasberg condemned the administration's deportation flights, highlighting the lack of due process and transparency.

  Mika Brzezinski [26:20]: "Nazis got better treatment under the Alien Enemy act than has happened here."

• State Secrets Privilege:
  The Department of Justice invoked the state secrets privilege to withhold further information from the court, escalating concerns about executive overreach and separation of powers.

  David French [29:18]: "This is a challenge to our fundamental system of checks and balances."

• Potential Constitutional Crisis:
  Experts debated whether this confrontation could lead to a Supreme Court test on the limits of executive power, posing a threat to the established system of checks and balances.

  Eugene Robinson [31:01]: "The Constitution has given the judiciary charge over interpreting the law and the MAGA movement... incredibly dangerous."

Notable Quotes:

• David French [31:01]: "We're heading toward some kind of Supreme Court test of whether the executive branch... are subject to the normal judicial review."
• Eugene Robinson [32:16]: "In a completely unpredictable White House under President Trump, they ask, can we depend on this United States for our security?"

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III. US-Russia Talks on Ceasefire in Black Sea

Overview: The podcast addressed ongoing diplomatic efforts between the US and Russian officials aimed at brokering a ceasefire in the Black Sea region. These talks are part of a broader initiative to resolve conflicts stemming from Russia's actions in Ukraine.

Key Discussions:

• Negotiation Dynamics:
  The talks, facilitated in Saudi Arabia, focus on a ceasefire proposal that seeks to halt maritime operations in the Black Sea, with broader peace negotiations hoped to follow.

  David French [36:59]: "Ukraine agreed to a broad ceasefire on all fronts. Russia wouldn't and wanted a ceasefire limited to energy infrastructure."

• Trump Administration's Role:
  Steve Witkoff, the Trump administration's special negotiator on Ukraine, faced criticism for appearing sympathetic to Putin's positions, raising questions about the administration's negotiation stance.

  Joe Scarborough [38:48]: "Vice President J.D. Vance came out, defended Witkoff... why does it seem at every turn, the burden is placed on Ukraine?"

• Impact on US Allies:
  Discussions highlighted concerns that erratic US policies under the Trump administration are undermining the trust of traditional allies, potentially leading them to seek their own security arrangements independent of the US nuclear umbrella.

  David French [42:16]: "Countries... are beginning to question whether in the age of Trump, the US Nuclear umbrella is reliable."

Notable Quotes:

• Eugene Robinson [39:16]: "Trump himself seemed to be preparing the ground to try to supplant that role for the executive."
• David French [43:37]: "Can they rely on this United States for our security? More and more countries... are beginning to debate whether they need their own nuclear deterrent because the US Isn't a reliable provider of security."

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IV. Trump's Tariffs and Global Trust in US Leadership

Overview: The administration's imposition of new tariffs under "Project 2025" was scrutinized for its potential to erode global confidence in US economic and nuclear leadership. Concerns were raised about the long-term implications of Trump's actions on international relations and America's strategic standing.

Key Discussions:

• Economic Leadership Concerns:
  Tariffs and erratic trade policies are leading international partners to reassess their reliance on the US for stable economic leadership.

  David Ignatius [40:38]: "These countries are beginning to examine the fundamentals of their relationship with the US if they can't depend on Washington for mature economic leadership."

• Impact on Nuclear Alliances:
  Some allies are contemplating their own nuclear deterrents as a response to perceived unreliability in the US nuclear umbrella, citing Trump's unpredictable policies as a catalyst.

  David French [42:16]: "I hear nobody in the administration even beginning to consider that as an issue."

Notable Quotes:

• David French [43:37]: "I don't hear anybody in the administration even beginning to consider that as an issue."
• Eugene Robinson [40:38]: "MAGA has long had beefs with Ukraine... an incredibly negative change over the long term for American national security."

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V. 118th Congress: A Study in Dysfunction

Overview: The latter part of the episode featured a discussion on the highly unproductive 118th Congress, co-authored by New York Times correspondents Annie Carney and Luke Broadwater. The conversation highlighted internal rivalries, lack of legislative progress, and the overarching influence of MAGA ideology on congressional operations.

Key Discussions:

• Internal Feuding and Lack of Progress:
  The Congress was described as "a madhouse" where personal vendettas and performative politics overshadowed legislative achievements.

  Annie Carney [45:56]: "It was a uniquely unproductive Congress where they weren't actually doing anything more than the bare minimum of keeping the lights on."

• Performance Over Policy:
  Lawmakers prioritized signaling loyalty to Donald Trump over effective governance, leading to a fragmented and inefficient legislative body.

  Ali Vitale [47:29]: "Lawmaker after lawmaker... made it their own... revealing the inner thinking that many Republicans don't often say."

• Influence of Non-Elected Actors:
  Figures like Russ Vought and Steve Bannon exerted significant influence over congressional lawmakers, steering them towards more extreme and less collaborative stances.

  Annie Carney [49:46]: "They are guides for this group of hard right lawmakers who really had outsized power."

Notable Quotes:

• Mika Brzezinski [45:56]: "These House Republicans were his sword and shield for those years and helped resuscitate him."
• Eugene Robinson [50:52]: "They are setting certain examples to the rest of the government as to what are the expectations of this administration."

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VI. Closing Remarks and Upcoming Segments

The episode concluded with a preview of upcoming discussions, including an interview with Jeffrey Goldberg about the leaked war plans and updates on the broader political landscape. The hosts emphasized the gravity of the issues discussed and the continued challenges facing American governance and international relations.

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Conclusion: The March 25, 2025, episode of Morning Joe delved into critical issues facing the United States, from severe breaches in national security protocols to the deep-seated dysfunction within Congress. The Trump administration's actions, particularly concerning the misuse of communication platforms for classified information and contentious deportation policies, have sparked intense debate about loyalty versus accountability. Additionally, the erosion of trust among US allies and the fracturing of legislative bodies underscore a period of significant turmoil and uncertainty in American politics.

Transcript

[Mika Brzezinski]

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[Joe Scarborough]

As Democrats, we actually believe in merit. Merit that should be based on what you know, not who you know and understand. This whole Trump administration is filled with lackeys and incompetent cronies. I'm not talking about any particular individual, though I will note that the secretary of defense who was on that chain has got to be the most unqualified person ever to lead the Pentagon in American history.

[David Ignatius]

House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries responding to the bombshell report that top officials in the Trump administration texted war plans to a journalist in a group chat. We'll bring you more reaction from Capitol Hill, where Republicans mostly downplayed the seriousness of sharing classified information with a reporter. And the journalist at the center of the story, editor in chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, will be our guest this morning. Also ahead, a federal appeals judge condemns in the harshest terms the Trump administration for its use of the Alien Enemies act to deport Venezuelan migrants without due process. We're going to go through that hearing as the DOJ continues to stonewall another court on the basic facts of the flights. Plus, we will have an update on the diplomatic talks between the US And Russian officials about a ceasefire proposal in the Black Sea. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, March 25th. With us, we have the co host of our fourth hour, Jonathan Lemire. He's a contributing writer at the Atlantic, covering the White House and national politics. The host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale is with us, columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius joins us this morning. MSNBC political analyst and associate editor of the Washington Post, Eugene Robinson is here and New York Times opinion columnist David French. A lot to get to this morning. And we will begin with the stunning sharing of sensitive military operations by top Trump administration officials through a group chat on the Signal app. The editor in chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, reported yesterday that National Security Adviser Mike Waltz inadvertently added him earlier this month to a group chat about military strikes on Yemeni Houthis. According to Goldberg, the group included Vice President J.D. vance, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Defense Secretary Pete Hagseth, and others, many others. In the article, Goldberg described his initial skepticism, wondering if the unsolicited outreach was part of a disinformation campaign. Goldberg wrote that Hegseth on Saturday, March 15, texted the group the war plan two hours before the strikes, which included precise information about weapons packages, targets, and timing. Goldberg left the group after he concluded it was almost certainly real. And Willie, there's so many questions here. First of all, what are they doing on the Signal app, which is encrypted and safe, but certainly not for top secret, classified government information about war plans? And secondly, all those people on the chat did not notice that Jeffrey Goldberg was on it, and all this information about a strike that happened was imminent. I think about all the different ways that people's lives were in danger.

[Joe Scarborough]

I mean, I do that on a fantasy football chat. What's this number? I don't recognize you. Sidebar to the other guys. Let's get him out of here. But this is a commercial open source app, Signal. Yes, it's encrypted, but that doesn't mean.

[David Ignatius]

Oh, my.

[Joe Scarborough]

Also, if you're using phones, which we need to understand which phones they were using, the Chinese we know easily tapping into all of these phones. There's so many questions here. Privacy text experts say signals. Encrypted messaging is more secure, conventional texting, but of course can be hacked and certainly is not cleared for classified information. Several Defense Department officials told the New York Times they were shocked Hegseth had put American war plans into a commercial chat group. They said having this type of conversation in a Signal group itself could be a violation of the Espionage Act, a law that covers the handling of sensitive information. When asked yesterday about the peace in the Atlantic from Jeffrey Goldberg, President Trump claimed he didn't know anything about the leaked strike plan.

[Eugene Robinson]

I don't know anything about it.

[Ali Vitale]

I'm not a big fan of the Atlantic.

[David French]

It's.

[David Ignatius]

To me, it's a magazine that's going out of business.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I think it's not much of a.

[Joe Scarborough]

Magazine, but I know nothing about it.

[David French]

You're saying that they had what they.

[Eugene Robinson]

Were using Signal to coordinate on sensitive materials.

[Joe Scarborough]

Having to do with what? Having to do with what? What were they talking about with the Houthis.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The Houthis? You mean the attack on the Houthis? Well, it couldn't have been very effective because the attack was very effective. I can tell you that.

[Ali Vitale]

I don't know anything about it.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You're telling about it for the first time.

[Joe Scarborough]

President clearly flailing there. A source tells NBC News the president met with national security adviser Mike Waltz later in the day yesterday. The White House press secretary then issued a statement that reads in part, President Trump continues to have the utmost confidence in his national security team, including national security Adviser Mike Waltz. This comes amid speculation about Waltz's future with the administration. White House officials tell Politico President Trump will make that decision over the next few days as he watches the coverage of of the embarrassing episode. Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is denying he and other Trump administration officials use the group chat to discuss war plans. You're talking about a deceitful and highly discredited so called journalist who's made a.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Profession of peddling hoaxes time and time again.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Why were those details shared on Signal and how did you learn that a.

[David Ignatius]

Journalist was privy to the targets, the.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Types of weapons used?

[Eugene Robinson]

I've heard I was carried, characterized.

[David Ignatius]

Nobody was texting war plans.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And that's all I have to say about that.

[Joe Scarborough]

Except the National Security Council validated it said this was an authentic text chain. The denial comes despite what I said, that the NSC says it was authentic. So Jonathan Lemire, so much to talk about here. Obviously Secretary Hegset parroting Donald Trump playbook is attack the source, question the press, a failing magazine, a so called journalist put all that to the side. I mean it's there in black and white. There are a whole bunch of people on this text chain. What are the consequences here? Donald Trump obviously prizes loyalty over everything. Pete Hegseth, Mike Waltz, the rest of them are loyal to a fault. Anything going to change here? Anything going to happen?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Let's start by clearly saying what this is. This is one of the most stunning national security stories we've had in decades. This is an extraordinary breach of security here. And in fact, in one of the last texts in the exchange that Jeffrey saw is Pete Hegseth saying operational security seems intact. Obviously not the case. There is so much here. First of all, first of all, again to your point earlier, Signal is not meant for this. This is a commercially available anyone can go to The App Store and download signal. These sort of conversations should be in highly encrypted government phones, government communication devices. And some of this stuff should only be done in a skiff, one of those secure rooms where you're not allowed to bring phones. So there's all sorts of security breaches here. It does seem like Mike Walls, National Security Advisor, is the one who inadvertently added Jeffrey Goldberg, who we might add is a well respected. And that it was Pete Hegseth. Despite his denial, he says there are no war plans, but yet in these messages are timed place sequences of attacks saying this will happen and then this will happen, and then this will happen, which appears to be the very definition of a war plan. So a stunning breach here in terms of what happens next. I heard, same as to what was reported there, that Trump is watching the media coverage. He met with Walz last night, though a supportive statement from the press secretary came out after that meeting. So at least for now, it appears that Walz's position is safe. I think Pete Hegseth is the Senate secretary, but the other who comes in under a lot of scrutiny here since he was the one sharing this information in the chat. Others who were there include the Secretary of State, DNI head, other Treasury Secretary, all represented. They were nominally involved. They didn't contribute much to the text messages, though we should note these were war plans, these were bombs being dropped in Yemen, and they were saluted by emojis. In this group chat here, American flags, hearts, prayer hands, whatever it might be, just simply a stunning lack of operational security. And let's recall, of course, that Donald Trump's first presidency was launched on the heels of a campaign about Hillary Clinton's alleged mishandling of classified and sensitive information. Nothing compared to this.

[Joe Scarborough]

We'll get to the Republican reaction to this, widely dismissing it as a mistake. David French, in your new piece this morning, you write if Pete Hegseth had any odds, he would resign. This group was labeled Houthi, PC, Small group, PC meaning Principals Committee, meaning all the big shots were on it. Among them, Vice President Vance, Secretary Hegseth, Secretary of State Marco Rubio, Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard. The list goes on and on and on. Can you just take a step back for us, as someone who has served, who was a JAG as well, how serious a breach is this?

[Eugene Robinson]

You know, I have never even heard of anything quite like this. Like, when I was a JAG officer, I investigated leaks or spillages of classified information. I saw careers of officers destroyed instantly for behavior that was a fraction as irresponsible as this. It really is a key moment. I think it is a key moment that says to the Trump administration, where the Trump administration looks to America and tells us, do they have any standards at all other than loyalty to Donald Trump? Because if there are any standards at all, there has to be accountability here and serious accountability. I don't know how Pete Hegseth can lead with credibility or if he does lead. What does this say to the. To the Pentagon? It says to the Pentagon. It says to the military that loyalty to Trump is the most important thing.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah. And David Ignatius. I actually want to start there. The shock of this and the level of disregard to national security is quite obvious here. The use of this app for this purpose. The number of people who are on this group chat at the highest levels of the country's defense, national security or power. But I also want to ask you about what's going on right now. And that's the administration's response, which is to either shrug their shoulders or to blame the media falsely. What does that say?

[David French]

So, Mika, I think the response so far reinforces this sense that we have that the administration regards rules about classified information as for junior people, little people, not for us senior people who are going to take the convenience of this app and use it. It's a pain in the neck to go into a sciff. It's a pain to follow these rules that restrict classified information and they behave as if those rules aren't for. I found Pete Hegseth's ad hominem a personal insult to the journalist who in this story, as Jeff describes it, behaved with great responsibility. One of the most disturbing things of this whole story, to try to attack him as he was trying to bring a serious breach of the rules to light. One of the administration's phrases drawn from Silicon Valley is move fast and break things. You have a sense with this group that they were moving fast. They wanted to get their Yemen Houthi policy done and that they, in the process, they just ignored all the rules that normally bound this kind of decision making. These were not small classified matters. These were pretty much the biggest secrets the government has about who and where and when. So it's, as you said at the outset, Mika, this is a bombshell. People should take it seriously. May seem strange for journalists to be so concerned about classified information, but I think the larger point is how do these folks operate? Do they obey rules at all? In this case, it suggests they didn't.

[David Ignatius]

For day, just real quickly, for the regular Americans Citizen who is busy and catching this on the fly. Why does this matter so much?

[David French]

So the reason this matters is that these rules are in place to save lives, to protect information that could get people killed. As Jeff has described it, he doesn't give many details, but people, places, times, attack sequences, what goes in, when, who's going to be vulnerable. At this period, there seem to have been additional details about specific human targets, people who were to be targeted in attacks. Again, this is. There isn't stuff that's much more sensitive than this or that could cause more blowback. And again, to reinforce, the problem with signal is that it's used on your regular phone, your commercial phone. That phone could be hacked anytime. And if it is, the encrypted messaging in it is completely vulnerable to people who are going after.

[David Ignatius]

Wow. So, Ali Vitale, I can imagine there is a lot of reaction on Capitol Hill.

[Ali Vitale]

Yeah, a lot of reaction, in large.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Part because of what David is describing.

[Ali Vitale]

The concern about national security. You hear Democrats saying this. And yet several Republicans were quick to downplay the leaked group chat, calling it a mistake, while others stopped short of demanding any action be taken against the officials involved.

[David Ignatius]

I think it's inside baseball.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I mean, they used an encrypted app.

[David Ignatius]

It'S my understanding, and somebody, a reporter or some third party was invited to join. I'm sure they'll reassess their protocol and their practices.

[Mika Brzezinski]

But I can promise you this. When moms and dads lie down to sleep at night and can't, they're sitting on their list, sitting on there with it. Somebody made a mistake. It happens.

[Joe Scarborough]

First off, we absolutely need to go after the Houthis, and we've been way behind in getting it done. So I'm very glad that the administration is doing that. Very important.

[David Ignatius]

I haven't seen the specific information yet.

[Joe Scarborough]

But I'll take a look at it. But, you know, Marco Rubio headed up the Intelligence Committee.

[David French]

He's a sharp guy.

[Joe Scarborough]

So I'm not sure what happened here, but I'll sure take a look and.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And see just finding out about it.

[David Ignatius]

But obviously, we've got to run into.

[David French]

Ground and figure out what went on there.

[Joe Scarborough]

So now we're, now we're griping about.

[David French]

Who'S on a text message and who's not. I mean, come on.

[David Ignatius]

What if there was Democratic lawmakers or Democratic administration officials passing around classified information on an unsecure channel? So I haven't been watching the news all day because I'm working, but I'm.

[Willie Geist]

Told the administration acknowledged an Error. And they're trying to determine how another telephone number got included in that.

[Joe Scarborough]

And they'll figure it out and they'll improve the process.

[Ali Vitale]

I'll tell you what, Eugene, we do know how Republicans would be talking about how classified information is stored, privacy concerns, presidential records acts. We know because they hinged Almost the.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Entire 2016 election closing argument on Hillary.

[Ali Vitale]

Clinton and her server. And yet the irony seems utterly lost here.

[Willie Geist]

But her emails, yes, the irony is completely lost. And there was nothing in the whole Hillary Clinton email episode that even begins to start to approach this security breach. This is the most amazing thing I've ever heard in a long, long time in Washington. I just want to point out there were two blocks of material that Jeff Goldberg said he left out of the piece he wrote in Atlantic. And one was about the war plans when Pete Hegseth apparently described in detail what was going to happen when, where, who. There was another chunk that apparently was John Ratcliffe, the director of the CIA, talking about some intelligence. We don't know what that intelligence information was, but was it sources and methods? Was it stuff that could indeed get someone killed aside from the bombing, but someone who's giving us information, who knows, we have no idea what it is? And Jeff did the responsible thing by, by leaving it out. But that just gives an idea that this was really serious. They were talking about really, really secret stuff, as David said, on phones apparently, that are not safe at all, that you have to assume Xi Jinping is listening when you're talking about this if he wants to.

[Joe Scarborough]

So David French, I'm just looking through as we talk about how many of the people involved in this talked about Hillary Clinton's private server in 2016, Marco Rubio saying that it's unacceptable that it was a disqualifier. National Security Advisor Mike Waltz, when he was a member of Congress talking about the Biden administration, said, talk about a double standard. Biden's sitting National Security Advisor, Jake Sullivan, sent top secret emails to Hillary Clinton's private account and the DOJ didn't do a damn thing. Tulsi Gabbard, every Vice President Vance, almost everybody on that chain, of course, ripped Hillary Clinton for having the private server. And so to watch those reactions yesterday, Senator Kennedy of Louisiana bending over backwards to say, nobody cares about this, it's an innocent mistake, obviously would not be showing the same grace to a Democrat.

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah, what's the old saying? They have double standards of the only standards that they have. If they didn't have double standards, they'd have no standards at All, I mean, this is the way this administration works, as I just said. You know, this is a, a moment where Pete Hegseth has to understand and these people have to understand they're leading agencies. They are leading key aspects of the government. They are setting certain examples to the rest of the government as to what are the expectations of this administration. And if we're looking at a situation where there is zero accountability at all, where if there is a traditional rally sort of around the MAGA flag, so long as they remain loyal to Trump, think about what this, the message this sends to the military. It just sends up and down the chain of command that political loyalty is now the principal thing, that the traditional standards of how you operate in government and how you operate as a military leader no longer apply. And that is incredibly dangerous, not just for the health of our body politic, but it's incredibly dangerous for a military to make a political, political loyalty the highest loyalty.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Political loyalty is the highest priority for Donald Trump. This just sort of reinforces that in a sort of spectacular, really dangerous way. And we should note in some ways how lucky the people involved this signal chat are that they added Jeffrey Goldberg and not someone else who was more and had more nefarious intentions. How this operation seemed to go off without a hitch, according to all reporting at the time. And now what we learned yesterday, there could have been sources, methods, compromised lives could have been endangered because of leaks like this. And then secondarily, Mika, it's also really, really revealing in terms of just the power structure in President Trump's White House and administration, where JD Vance flat out disagrees in these texts with the decision to go in after the Houthis second guessing President Trump's call, which is, I think, something that's not going to be well received in the Oval Office as they continue to sift through the fallout here. And it's actually Stephen Miller, the deputy chief of staff, who comes in and says the president was clear on this, this is what he wants. And everyone falls into line. Sort of revealing in some ways who the real power centers are in this administration.

[David Ignatius]

Be toug talking to Jeffrey Goldberg in our next hour, which will be fascinating. Still ahead of Morning Joe, there is a lot more going on. The growing legal fallout over Trump administration's decision to deport hundreds of Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador. Plus what we're learning about talks between Russian and US Officials in Saudi Arabia yesterday as the Trump administration pushes for a broad ceasefire in Ukraine. You're watching Morning Joe. We're back in just 90 seconds.

[Mika Brzezinski]

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[David Ignatius]

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[Mika Brzezinski]

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[David Ignatius]

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[Mika Brzezinski]

Paige Desorbo and I'm so excited to share my new shoe collection at DSW filled with my favorite styles and trends for spring. Because if you know me, you know I'm kind of obsessed with shoes. And by kind of obsessed, I mean head over heels. You're going to love these shoes. So snag super cute styles like cute flats, fun heels and cool sneakers from the Paige Desorbo Collection right now at your DSW store or dsw.com.

[David Ignatius]

Trump administration is invoking what's called state secrets privilege and refusing to provide any more information to the judge overseeing the Alien Enemies act deportations case. U.S. district Court Judge James Boasberg had given the government until today to provide more information on the deportation flights that could have violated his court order last week. Instead, the Department of Justice has filed documents that read in part, further intrusions on the executive branch would present dangerous and wholly unwarranted separation of powers harms with respect to diplomatic and national security concerns that the court lacks competence to address. Also yesterday, an appeals court panel heard arguments in the government's effort to lift Judge Boasberg's order halting the deportation flights. The hearing lasted about two hours. Lawyers for the Justice Department argued each individual migrant should have submitted a case against the flights. But the ACLU says deportations were so swift, there was no chance to file separate claims. The appeals panel was made up of three judges. Two were appointed by Republicans and one by a Democrat. One judge vigorously questioned the DoJ on the timeline of events, openly criticizing the government treatment of the migrants.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Listen, there were plane loads of people. There were no procedures in place to notify people. Nazis got better treatment under the Alien Enemy act than has happened here, where the proclamation required the promulgation of regulations, and they had hearing boards before people were removed. And yet here there's nothing in there about hearing boards. There's no regulations, and nothing was adopted by the agency officials that were administering this. People weren't given notice. They weren't told where they were going. District court here hasn't called into question the constitutionality of the Alien Enemies Act. It's been upheld, as you said, as a part of the war power. So that's not the question here. The question is whether the implementation of this proclamation without any process to determine whether people qualify under it. I mean, if the government says we don't have to give process for that, then y'all could have put me up on Saturday and throw me on a plane thinking I'm a member of Trenduragua and giving me no chance to protest it and say, somehow it's a violation of presidential war powers for me to say, excuse me. No, I'm not. I'd like a hearing.

[David Ignatius]

So, Gene Robinson, I'm curious. What do you make of what we just heard from that judge, if this could happen to these migrants, that it could happen to anybody. And also the terms that she was using there?

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, no, they're pretty strong. I mean, even the Nazis were treated better. That's pretty strong. But she's right. I mean, you look at what happened, you look at what she describes, and you just have to tell yourself, this can't be America. This isn't what happens in America. We don't sweep people up and load them onto planes with no due process and send them away to a brutal Third world prison in El Salvador where they may never see the light of day again. I mean, we don't do that to people in this country. And yet it was done. And it's being stubbornly defended without facts, but with a lot of bluster by this administration. And once again, it's the judicial branch that is stepping In. But David Ignatius, what do you think the outcome of this is going to be? I mean, are the government lawyers even listening? Is the administration even listening to what the judges are saying, or is it just blowing it off?

[David French]

The government keeps trying to fend off Judge Boasberg's questions, resisting or giving incomplete answers, then declaring that the whole category of information is a state secret and you can't penetrate further. I think the basic point here about this case and others is that we're heading toward some kind of Supreme Court test of whether the executive branch, whether the president has absolute powers to order events or whether the president is subject to the normal judicial review, the kinds of constraints that we've thought past presidents had. Until we have that Supreme Court test, it's going to be hard for me, Gene, to feel that we're at the moment of constitutional crisis, but we're sure getting there, you know, day by day, challenge by challenge. This latest assertion of state secrets seems just hard to imagine on a flight where the people were photographed. I mean, their identities are known. So we're on the pathway toward understanding just what the powers of this president will be and whether the courts are prepared to step in and in my mind, defend our system.

[Willie Geist]

If this isn't a crisis, It'll do till the crisis comes along, you know, and a crisis is coming along, I think.

[Joe Scarborough]

Think it sure seems that way. David French this is a challenge to our fundamental system of checks and balances, to the appellate process, because what you have is an administration that's saying these judges have no authority to challenge an order from the executive, from the President of the United States. So how do you see this shaking out ultimately?

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah, I mean, there's no question that two things are going on here. One, you have this focus on immigration to the exclusion of due process, this sort of purge of immigrants to the exclusion of due process, where, you know, Stephen Miller is talking about the only process that illegal immigrants are entitled to is deportation, but it's due process that decides whether or not they're illegal immigrants in the first place. But you're exactly right. What we're heading for is a very high level confrontation between the Supreme Court potentially, and a MAGA legal theory that essentially is saying that the President should be at the apex of all American government. You have had people in that sort of MAGA movement, like a Russ Vaught, who have said that they need to take on about 200 years of entrenched precedent here. And this is what we're dealing with on the front end. You have the issue itself, how much focus are they going to put on immigration? But hovering over all of that is also this bigger constitutional issue of who's in charge of the government. And the Constitution has given the judiciary charge over interpreting the law and the MAGA movement. And and Trump himself seemed to be preparing the ground to try to supplant that role for the executive.

[David Ignatius]

All right, coming up, we've got a lot more to cover getting an inside look as the 118th Congress. As our next guest described last year's lower chamber is a madhouse. We'll dig into that chaos that engulfed both parties and how it can give us insight into what the next four years might look like. That's straight ahead on Morning Joe.

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[David Ignatius]

35 past the hour. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. The British government has ordered an investigation into the country energy system after a fire shut down Europe's busiest air hub for almost a day. Heathrow Airport ground to a halt on Friday after an electrical substation was knocked offline. It impacted more than 200,000 passengers while no Foul play is suspected. There are growing concerns about the overall response to the incident. A series of high profile strikes in Gaza is highlighting Israel's intense to cripple the ability of Hamas to govern the territory. In one case, Israel killed the militant group's de facto prime minister just five days after an earlier attack had killed his predecessor. Israel ended a two month ceasefire last week aimed at pressuring Hamas to turn over the two dozen hostages believed to be alive in the Gaza Strip. And U.S. and Russian officials wrapped up negotiations in Saudi Arabia yesterday with talks focused on a cease fire proposal between Russia and Ukraine in the Black Sea. Reuters cites a White House source as saying progress was made yesterday and that a positive announcement is expected soon. The talks in Riyadh are part of an effort that the White House hopes will lead to broader peace negotiations. And on that point, the Wall Street Journal editorial board has entitled Steve Witkoff Takes the Kremlin side. It reads in part this quote, steve Witkoff, the Trump administration's special negotiator on Ukraine, says he's not taking sides as he tries to mediate an end to the war Vladimir Putin started in 2022. He could have fooled us. After a podcast interview this weekend in which Mr. Witkoff parroted one specious Russian talking point after another, Mr. Witkoff suggested Russia doesn't even want to control Ukraine, with the exception, that is, of the large areas Mr. Putin already occupies. Does Mr. Witkoff know anything about Russian or Mr. Putin's history? We can understand the need to tone down hostile rhetoric amid negotiations, but the administration's propensity to fall for Russian propaganda. Russia is something else. David Ignatius from everything that we know, where do these peace talks stand and how is Ukraine faring in this?

[David French]

So, Mika, where they stand is just past the starting line. The very beginning. Ukraine agreed to a broad ceasefire on all fronts. Russia wouldn't and wanted a ceasefire limited to energy infrastructure. There's been discussion in this latest round in Saudi Arabia about whether that means energy infrastructure or energy and infrastructure. The desire is to broaden this initial 30 day ceasefire to include the Black Sea so that maritime operations would also be included, and then eventually to make it a ceasefire on all fronts, which is what Ukraine initially agreed to. I think there's a deeper question and you lead into this discussion illustrated it is President Trump and his chief envoy, Steve Witkoff, in effect embracing Russian positions in these talks? Witkoff, in an interview with Tucker Carlson on Friday, was extraordinarily sympathetic to Putin, gave an account of how Putin had gone to church and prayed For Donald Trump, after he was wounded in the terrible assassination attempt, did everything he could to make Putin sound like a sympathetic figure and also seem to be endorsing the Kremlin's arguments that it should be able at least to keep the provinces of Ukraine that it now occupies and that NATO has no place in Ukraine's future. Those are fundamental Russian demands that Witkoff, the envoy seem to be saying, are already understood and accepted by the U.S. so, as I say, we're in the early stages. Having a ceasefire in Ukraine would be a wonderful thing in this terrible war, but broadening it so it's really meaningful, that hasn't happened yet.

[Joe Scarborough]

David Francis Wyckoff said in that interview that Putin, quote, is not a bad guy. He took a lot of criticism for that. Vice President J.D. vance came out, defended Witkoff, and said people sniping at Witkoff are just jealous that he's having success where they've failed over the last couple of generations. So what is success, I guess, is the question, and why does it seem at every turn, the burden is placed on Ukraine? Ukraine to prove itself, to make concessions as part of a deal.

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah, I was just gonna ask that. Where is the success here? I think the reason why you constantly see the burden being placed on Ukraine is that you genuinely have in the White House is a man who understands and is sympathetic with the Vladimir Putin position, that you get to dominate countries that are close to you, smaller, weaker countries that are close to you. I think that Trump himself sees Ukrainian independence as a problem. And why would we say something like that? Well, isn't that exactly how Donald Trump is treating our neighbors? If he's looking at Canada, if he's looking at Mexico, he's treating them as if these are vassal states, these are subordinate to us or Greenland with Denmark. And I think his genuine view of the world is this view that says there are spheres of influence, influence. And Ukraine is in Putin's sphere of influence, doesn't treat it as a fully independent country. And so I think that's part of the root here. In addition to that, MAGA has long had beefs with Ukraine, going back even before first impeachment. So what we're looking at is a sea change in thinking about strategy in the Trump administration, one from alliances to spheres of influence. And that is an incredibly negative change over the long term for American national security.

[David Ignatius]

So, David Ignatius, your latest opinion piece for the Washington Post is entitled Trump's Destabilizing Liberation Day, referring to next Wednesday, April 2, when the Trump administration plans to impose an unspecified number of new tariffs. In your piece, you write in part, quote, as Trump turns on allies and partners, these countries are beginning to examine the fundamentals of their relationship with the US if they can't depend on Washington for mature economic leadership, what else is at risk? Inevitably, many are beginning to question whether in the age of Trump, the US Nuclear umbrella is reliable. That's a clear question at this point. I mean, every stress Right now on U.S. national security, whether it be the Russia relationship that we were just talking about, the Signal group chat releasing war plans, which leads one to question how many other group chats are out there about classified information that American service members lives depend on are being thrown out there on Signal and by mistake, including other people and no one noticing the deportations, stressing our legal system, pushing the envelope. And now these tariffs. What do you think ultimately the impact is going to be in terms of what's in Trump's best interest and also America's best interest? And do they coincide?

[David French]

Well, that's the heart of the question, isn't it? I think that countries overseas are increasingly asking whether the United States is operating in their interest. Can they rely on the United States? Can they rely on the United States to exercise caution with highly classified information? To take today's example? But every day there's a different one. And my concern is that I increasingly hear from European and Asian leaders a question about whether they can rely on the most fundamental element of US Power, which is what we call our nuclear umbrella. One reason the world isn't just full of countries with nuclear weapons. Much more dangerous is that many countries have chosen to rely on us for protection. And as they look at an erratic and unpredictable White House under President Trump, they ask, can we depend on this United States for our security? More and more countries, Alyssa, Poland, Germany, South Korea go down a long list. Australia are beginning to debate whether they need their own nuclear deterrent because the US Isn't a reliable provider of security. In that world, life will be much more dangerous. And I don't hear anybody in the administration even beginning to consider that as an issue.

[David Ignatius]

Wow. The Washington Post, Dave Ignatius, an opinion columnist for the New York Times, David French. Thank you both very much for coming on today. We appreciate it. And still ahead on Morning Joe, we'll get back to the stunning new details about how the Trump administration mistakenly added a journalist to a chat about classified war plans. We'll speak with the reporter in the middle of it all, editor in chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg on what he saw firsthand. Morning Joe will be right back.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The country right now faces hugely challenging.

[David French]

And fundamentally important issues.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And what we've done in our politics is create a situation where we're electing idiots.

[David Ignatius]

And.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And so I don't look at it through the lens of like, you.

[David French]

Know, is this what I should do.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Or what I shouldn't do? I look at it through the lens of how do we elect serious people.

[Joe Scarborough]

Former Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming. That was back in 2023, expressing her disappointment about some of the country's elected officials these days. Cheney left Washington right before the start of the 118th Congress. Not by choice. This has been, by the way, one of the least productive legislative sessions American history. Joining us now, congressional correspondent for the New York Times, Annie Carney and White House correspondent for the New York Times, Luke Broadwater. They are co authors of a new book highlighting that historically unproductive Congress. It's titled How Donald Trump MAGA Mean Girls, A former Used car Salesman, A Florida Nepo baby, and a Man with rats in his walls Broke Congressman.

[David Ignatius]

Now that's the title.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's how you do it right there. That's how you do it. Guys, good morning. Congratulations on the book. I hardly know where to begin. There's so much good stuff we'll get to in a moment about Democrats pressuring Democrats and leadership, Joe Biden to get out of the race last summer and what those moments were like. Very dramatic. But let's talk first, Annie, about this Congress and some of the characters you highlight. Is Liz Cheney right in her assessment? This is a uniquely. What's the word? I won't use her word, but it's a different kind of Congress.

[Mika Brzezinski]

It was a uniquely unproductive Congress where, where they weren't actually doing anything more than the bare minimum of keeping the lights on, like avoiding defaulting on our debt. And therefore these personal feuds became sort of the primary job. Like, people started to think that the infighting and the backstabbing and the taking each other down was the job and kind of got lost in that. So we spent the past two years going kind of circling back on every big moment that happened in this Congress, from Kevin McCarthy, these 15 rounds to get the speakership, to the debt ceiling fight, to whether or not to send money to Ukraine, to more petty things like Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene, like, hating each other more than they hate any Democrat. And every time there was a moment, we'd circle back and kind of talk to everyone who had been involved in that moment. And what we realized is like the world moves on. But there are so many more insane stories, and our book is sort of filled with recreating those scenes from inside to tell just how broken this Congress really was. I mean, Congress has always been a hated institution, but this maga, this is the kind of the first MAGA House, and they're really the first ones that really broke it and made it just non functional.

[Joe Scarborough]

Luke, how much of this is about signaling loyalty to Donald Trump? There's so much performance in this Congress, and as we just pointed out, not a lot of legislators, but almost everything they do appears to be some kind of a gesture to show just how MAGA they are or how loyal they are to Donald Trump.

[Ali Vitale]

Yeah, that's absolutely right. You know, lawmaker after lawmaker we sat with really embraced MAGA and made it their own. And then sometimes it was a more extreme version of the MAGA movement than even Donald Trump embraces himself. You know, one lawmaker we feature in the book is Nancy Mace. And Nancy Mace, throughout the course of. Of of the interview process, goes from a Trump skeptic who's sort of with the moderate wing of the party to openly saying that she has no future unless she gets on board with the Trump agenda. You can't get ahead in the Republican Party and be anti Trump, she says out loud. And sort of revealing the inner thinking that many Republicans don't often say. They sort of keep that part quiet, usually.

[Mika Brzezinski]

This group of people also, like, we track them for the years that Donald Trump was out of power in Mar a Lago. Like, these House Republicans were his sword and shield for those years and helped resuscitate him. So if you want to understand, like, why are we here? Like, it's. Thanks a lot. Brought to you by, like, these people who kept it all alive and going and, like, and brought him back to life, really.

[David Ignatius]

So what are some. Look, what are some of the storylines you dig into to sort of show this, projecting this performative behavior, not necessarily productive in terms of legislation? How crazy does the madhouse get?

[Ali Vitale]

Pretty crazy. I mean, we are able to take you inside room after room and show you how these internal negotiations actually take place. And you will see if you read the book, time and time again, there are threats of physical violence between lawmakers. There are, you know, insane profane shouting matches that go on. It really is a Congress where chaos was sort of a core function of how things got done. And we know, of course, that the speaker gets thrown out. They take three weeks to elect a new speaker. That power fight really draws fault lines within the Republican Party and results in the Mike Johnson speakership where he owes the speakership to Donald Trump. And now we're seeing how that's playing out in the current moment.

[Jonathan Lemire]

So, Annie, to your point about how these characters are still so relevant today, tell everyone about the man with the rats in his walls and why he still matters so much.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The man with rats in his walls was Russ Vogt. He, when we interviewed him, wasn't sure if they were pigeons or rats, but he later came to the conclusion he later came to the conclusion that they were probably rats. He is now the OMB director. He is the architect of Project 2025. He is responsible for these cuts that are kind of the main thing that Democrats are targeting as something to oppose. And he was last Congress kind of an outside influencer. There's a few of them, like Russ Fot and Steve Bannon are characters in our book who had profound influence. And they were power centers who aren't elected officials but near the Capitol. And they are guides for this group of hard right lawmakers who really had outsized power when there's such a small majority. These 20 lawmakers took a lot of marching orders from Russ Fot, from Steve Bannon, who gave them a platform, who gave them policy ideas and kind of cheered for this thing falling apart. But now Russ Vote is more powerful than ever.

[Joe Scarborough]

So, Luke, let's talk about the Democrats. I mentioned some of these dramatic scenes of Democratic leadership. Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi, you have Schumer speaking behind the scenes to former President Barack Obama about a five alarm crisis that they viewed the, the Biden candidacy to be, especially after that debate. When did Chuck Schumer go to Joe Biden and say, sir, I think you need to step aside?

[Ali Vitale]

Right. Well, it's not until July, the same day that Donald Trump is shot. So they, if you, if you go through the book, we document how Democrats had some concerns about Joe Biden's presidency much, much earlier, months earlier, where, you know, one lawmaker from Virginia told us that all it took was one Joe Biden fall and his candidacy was over. And so they, they were worried about this for months, but they really did nothing because of sort of internal fighting and I think kind of a fear of going against the president. And so they watched slowly as sort of the presidency slipped away. And finally Chuck Schumer was the only person that really went to buy Biden personally, one on one. And in a very dramatic scene that's basically an entire chapter of the book, he confronts Biden about having to step out of the race. And he thinks at the time that he has basically saved the Democratic Party. But as we now know, it was it was much too late.

[David Ignatius]

No. The new book is entitled Madhouse How Donald Trump Magamine Girls, A Former Used Car Salesman, A Florida Nepo Baby, and a Man With Rats in His Wall. Walls Broke Congress. It's on sale now. Co authors and New York Times correspondents Annie Carney and Luke Broadwater, thank you both. Congratulations on the book.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Thank you so much.

[David Ignatius]

Thanks for coming on the show. All right.

[Eugene Robinson]

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Mario Spro.

[Mika Brzezinski]

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