Morning Joe 3/27/25

Summary

Morning Joe Podcast Summary – March 27, 2025

Hosted by Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski, along with Willie Geist, Morning Joe on March 27, 2025, delved into pressing national security concerns, significant economic policies, and noteworthy global events. This comprehensive summary captures the episode's key discussions, insights, and conclusions, complete with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. National Security Breach: Militarial Plans Shared on Signal

Discussion Overview: The episode opened with an in-depth analysis of a controversial incident where Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth shared military attack plans in a Signal group chat, which included journalist Jeffrey Goldberg. This disclosure raised significant concerns about national security protocols and the safeguarding of classified information.

Key Points:

• Incident Details: Defense Secretary Hegseth outlined attack plans against Houthi rebels in Yemen within a Signal chat, leading to allegations of leaking classified information.

• Administration Response: President Trump and the administration swiftly denied any breach of national security, asserting that no classified information was shared. Joe Scarborough criticized the administration's handling, stating, "I think it's all a witch hunt. That's all." ([12:01])

• Expert Opinions: Alex Ward from the Wall Street Journal emphasized the severity, explaining, "An attack plan is more immediate... if leaked, adversaries could scuttle the operation." ([31:35])

• Implications for Military Trust: The incident has potentially eroded trust among military and intelligence personnel, with concerns that such breaches undermine the integrity of information-sharing protocols. Alex Ward noted, "It's a terrible period when leaders, rather than taking responsibility... that's got to be disturbing to everybody in a military that's already kind." ([34:05])

• International Repercussions: Discussions highlighted worries among U.S. allies about sharing sensitive intelligence, potentially straining relationships within NATO and other international partnerships. Gillian Tett remarked, "They are concerned that any intelligence shared by them to the United States might end up in a Signal chat... not as secure as it had been in the past." ([36:25])

Notable Quotes:

• Joe Scarborough: "This is a scandal." ([09:36])
• Mika Brzezinski: "The question is, what's gonna happen next?" ([20:13])
• David Ignatius: "If he actually believes that that's not a problem, that's an even bigger concern, I think for the country." ([16:09])

Conclusions: The breach has far-reaching consequences, not only questioning the administration's competence but also potentially weakening international alliances and the overall security framework. There is a unanimous call for rigorous investigations and stricter adherence to information security protocols to prevent future incidents.

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2. Economic Policy: President Trump Announces 25% Tariffs on Imported Cars and Car Parts

Discussion Overview: A significant portion of the episode focused on President Trump's announcement of a new round of tariffs targeting foreign-made cars and auto parts. This policy aims to protect American manufacturing but has sparked debates over its potential economic impact.

Key Points:

• Tariff Details: The administration revealed a 25% tariff on imported cars and car parts that are not assembled in the United States. This move targets foreign automakers but exempts those already operating manufacturing plants domestically. [39:04]

• Economic Implications: Experts like Steve Ratner labeled the policy as "economic lunacy day," highlighting the likely negative effects on business and consumer confidence. The tariffs are expected to increase car prices for U.S. consumers significantly, with estimates ranging from $4,000 to $12,000 per vehicle. ([44:25])

• Supply Chain Disruptions: The interconnected nature of modern supply chains means that tariffs on parts can impact the entire manufacturing process, potentially harming both American and foreign producers. Joe Scarborough noted, "It's hard to see you say that." ([46:36])

• Global Trade Relations: The tariffs may strain relationships with key trade partners, including the EU, Canada, Japan, and South Korea. There is concern about retaliation and the broader impact on global economic stability. [49:41]

• Political Context: The policy aligns with Trump's broader protectionist agenda, aiming to "Make America Great Again" by reviving domestic manufacturing. However, critics argue it disregards the benefits of globalization and free trade. [41:38]

Notable Quotes:

• Jonathan Lemire: "Things are more expensive... what's called the Economic Liberation Day as economic lunacy day." ([43:00])
• Steve Ratner: "Edge apart business confidence because they can't plan smashing apart consumer confidence." ([42:20])
• Joe Scarborough: "How do you unwind that in a way that doesn't shatter the economy?" ([46:36])

Conclusions: While the administration touts the tariffs as a means to bolster American manufacturing, economic experts warn of potential negative repercussions, including higher consumer prices, disrupted supply chains, and strained international relations. The long-term effectiveness of such protectionist measures remains uncertain, with significant risks to both the economy and America's global standing.

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3. Global Events and Other News Highlights

A. South Korea’s Devastating Wildfires

• Impact: At least two dozen people confirmed dead in unprecedented wildfires. High winds exacerbated the situation, leading to widespread evacuations and the destruction of hundreds of structures, including an ancient Buddhist temple. [26:12]

B. Turkey’s Political Turmoil

• Protests and Crackdown: One week following the arrest of Istanbul's mayor, a significant political rival to President Erdogan, massive protests continue. Over 1,300 individuals have been jailed amidst nightly demonstrations demanding the mayor’s release and opposing Erdogan’s authoritarian measures. [26:12]

C. U.S. Supreme Court Ruling on Ghost Guns

• Decision: The Supreme Court upheld a Biden administration rule regulating ghost gun kits, allowing individuals to assemble firearms from online parts. The ruling was 7-2, with Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito dissenting. However, the Trump administration may seek to rescind the rule. [26:12]

Notable Quotes:

• Alex Ward on Turkey Protests: "Young people... haven't known any other leader than Erdogan... It's really... the intensity of the challenge." ([27:47])
• Gillian Tett on Ghost Guns: "They may be regulated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives." ([26:12])

Conclusions: These global and domestic events underscore the persistent challenges in international relations, political stability, and regulatory frameworks. The wildfires in South Korea highlight environmental vulnerabilities, Turkey's political unrest reflects shifting power dynamics, and the Supreme Court’s decision on ghost guns reveals ongoing debates over firearm regulation and Second Amendment rights in the U.S.

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4. Economic Analysts on Tariffs and Globalization

Discussion Overview: The panel engaged with economic analysts Steve Ratner and Gillian Tett to dissect the implications of Trump's tariff policies and the broader theme of globalization versus protectionism.

Key Points:

• Economic Liberation Day: Steve Ratner described Trump's initiative as "economic lunacy," predicting negative outcomes like reduced business and consumer confidence and increased inflation. ([42:20])

• Global Supply Chains: Jonathan Lemire highlighted the complexity of unwinding decades-long globalization, emphasizing the interconnectedness of modern manufacturing processes and the difficulty in reversing these established systems without significant economic disruption. ([52:18])

• Service Sector Oversight: Steve Ratner pointed out that Trump's focus on manufactured goods overlooks the critical role of the service sector in the global economy, which constitutes a major portion of U.S. trade. ([50:59])

Notable Quotes:

• Steve Ratner: "What you're doing with these threatened tariffs is smashing apart business confidence... a lot of inflationary impacts again." ([42:20])
• Jonathan Lemire: "This has been going on since 1979. It's called globalization. And we can't go back to 1950." ([52:23])

Conclusions: The discussion concluded that Trump's tariff policies, while politically motivated to appeal to manufacturing sectors and working-class voters, are economically detrimental. Economists caution against such protectionist measures, advocating for embracing globalization's benefits while addressing its challenges through more nuanced policies.

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5. Upcoming Segments Preview

• European Leaders Meeting in Paris: Efforts to strengthen support for Ukraine amid ongoing geopolitical tensions and how it might influence Trump's ceasefire negotiations with Russia.

• President Trump’s Additional Announcements: Potential further tariffs and policies impacting various sectors and international trade relations.

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Final Remarks: The March 27th episode of Morning Joe provided a critical examination of national security vulnerabilities, aggressive economic policies, and significant global events shaping the current landscape. Through expert analysis and robust discussion, the hosts and guests underscored the complexities and repercussions of the administration's actions both domestically and internationally.

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For listeners seeking deep dives into current political and economic issues, Morning Joe continues to offer informed perspectives and expert insights to navigate the day's most pressing stories.

Transcript

[Joe Scarborough]

This episode is sponsored by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. Dive into the market with E Trade's easy to use tools. And now there's even more to love. Get access to expert insights from Morgan Stanley to help navigate the markets. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Learn [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley.

[Willie Geist]

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[Joe Scarborough]

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[Willie Geist]

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[Joe Scarborough]

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[David Ignatius]

One constant through all the years, Ray, has been baseball.

[Joe Scarborough]

America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. It's been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again.

[David Ignatius]

But baseball has marked the time.

[Joe Scarborough]

This field, this game is a part of our past, Ray.

[David Ignatius]

It reminds us of all that once was good.

[Joe Scarborough]

It could be again. Oh, people will come, Ray. People will most definitely come.

[Willie Geist]

And then they walk into the corn and you lose me there. Good morning and welcome to morning show.

[Joe Scarborough]

George H.W.

[Willie Geist]

It is Thursday, March 27th. Opening day. So I'm not even gonna try. I'm not even gonna try. Along with George Bush.

[Joe Scarborough]

George H.W. bush.

[Willie Geist]

They walk into the corn.

[Joe Scarborough]

Interviewed on baseball. I remember after, when film dreams came out, he said, I don't get it. But. So he and Mika. He and Mika are together. The rest of us, though, get it.

[Willie Geist]

Here to the eye.

[Joe Scarborough]

Why?

[Willie Geist]

Happy opening day, Mike.

[Joe Scarborough]

Happy opening day. Thank you. Thank you. It's a wonderful background. I'm looking, I'm wondering who's in my seat.

[Willie Geist]

I walked into this. What the heck is going on here?

[Joe Scarborough]

Exactly.

[Willie Geist]

I took a swing at home base. No, I really did, Mike, Did I not?

[Joe Scarborough]

What? Home plate.

[Willie Geist]

I took a swing.

[Joe Scarborough]

Home plate. At home plate. Yes, at home plate. Good swing.

[Willie Geist]

Thank you.

[Joe Scarborough]

Nice swing.

[Willie Geist]

I do have a good uppercut for the wall.

[Joe Scarborough]

So I. I want to thank you, Willie, for being patient here. A Yankees fan, as one who. I literally will not step into Yankee Stadium. This. This has to be painful to have all of this Red Sox.

[David Ignatius]

It's a beautiful stadium.

[Joe Scarborough]

Fenway Park. It is.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Even as a Yankee fan, you're a champion.

[David Ignatius]

And it's appropriate that we're at Fenway because if you read and look around, the sexy World Series pick this year is the Boston Red Sox. So all the pressure in the world is on the Boston Red Sox starting today. It would be a shame if they finished second. And the Yankees, our players are all out for the year.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's my deal. Okay? That's my deal.

[David Ignatius]

Our best players are out for the year. And so we hope we can just stay competitive this year, get a high draft pick and maybe be good next year.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's very nice for you to say, but as we all know around here, boys, people that know baseball and look at payroll, they understand. Dodgers, yeah, no doubt the Dodgers and the Yankees in the World Series. And if I'm the Yankees and I don't win that in five or six games with the. With the talent that they have, couple. Couple of them hurt, they're coming back. But if the Yankees don't win the World Series in five games, six games, it's. It's another failed season.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The Yankees such a juggernaut that they're able to give one of their minor league stadiums to a major league team and say, look, you could take this. This will be home for you this year.

[Joe Scarborough]

Would I use. If you can have this one. Lemire's learning how to do this better. We would do this. Last year. I got the. What do you think? You saw? That's not how you play. That's not how you play.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The poor mouth, subtle approach to the.

[Joe Scarborough]

Bear Bryant playing, you know, you know, old, old man, speed him 63 to 3. We would love you to get by without one. But anyway, baseball is such an exciting time. It is back. And David Ignatius. I know Washington, the Nats is. Well, tell me, David, what is it?

[Alex Ward]

Full of hope.

[Joe Scarborough]

Full of hope. Okay. Full of hope. You know, we're not.

[Alex Ward]

We're not like these oligarchs of baseball in New York, and we're the little people.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, little people won the World Series not so long ago.

[Alex Ward]

We'll be back.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, they can be back this year. The Nationals. Yeah, they have. Not a bad team. Not a bad team. We've got a good young team, fourth place in their division. But you know, the point about opening day, I think, as David just mentioned, the word hope, hopefully, we have never needed baseball more than we need baseball today, because baseball is an everyday proposition, and it gives you someplace to vent your anger, your hope, your dreams. It gives you a chance to realize that failure is an option that everybody experiences because you don't win every game. And it takes your mind off the things that we talk about here every day, which are so Deeply depressing. Well, I gotta say, Mike, you were saying that like. Well, you've been saying that for 18 years. It's so deeply depressing. But it's baseball. You're right. It's, it's. I. But there's something, David Ignatius. There's something that is uniquely American about this game. And it's so exciting watching Japanese fans get so excited about it and fans in Mexico, fans across the world getting excited about it. But there's something unique about it in part because people that weren't born here and raised here, so many just look out at the field when I take them there they go, I don't get it. And my favorite, my favorite story on this line was George Mitchell said that in 91, I think when the queen visited, he. They all went up, the Queen and 41. And George Mitchell and I think Bob Dole went up to watch the Orioles playing Baltimore that night. They had a state dinner. Mitchell sitting next to the Queen and, and the then majority leader said, so what did you think about baseball? And here's a woman who spent 75 years being the diplomat's diplomat. She said, well, not a lot really happened out there, did it? Just, just didn't get it. And you know, it's. Again, it's. If you sat next to your dad, you know, I always think Doris Kearns Goodwin in Ken Burns documentary on baseball talking about sitting there, her father teaching her how to keep score. And it's something all these years later stays with her. Same with my dad. We, every time we went to a baseball game, I was looking out at the field, he was keeping score and then explained to me, this is, you know, how you. Yeah. So there is something constantly American about it, isn't there?

[Alex Ward]

This may be all the soft power we have left.

[Willie Geist]

Wow, well done.

[David Ignatius]

Taylor Swift.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, go with it, go with it. Can we do an honorable mention of the baseball movie and then we can.

[Willie Geist]

Get to the news.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's one of movies I go back and I see time and time again. The Natural. I just, every time baseball season comes around, I mean, Robert Redford, the Natural, it's just. That's a great. He was a legitimate good left handed. Yes.

[David Ignatius]

Nice swing.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. He played in college. Yeah. You always, you always see these movies where you have these actors, right? Really? And they're like, oh, this Johnny's. And they, they throw like this. Yeah. Robert Redford, left handed. He goes, yeah. I mean. And that swing, sweet, beautiful swing. Sometimes natural, unnatural swing.

[David Ignatius]

Sometimes when actors play athletes, it's very clear they went To Juilliard, which is a great thing.

[Joe Scarborough]

I love Juilliard. I wish. I wish I could have gone.

[David Ignatius]

But they don't have a great baseball team.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Willie Geist]

It's fair to say they got something to go. Poll, I've given you all a good eight minutes here, so we're going to get to the news.

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, really quickly. Who's going to win the World Series this year?

[David Ignatius]

Dodgers. How could it be anybody else? Yeah. Better.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I mean, they just have so much depth.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right.

[Mika Brzezinski]

It would be hard to think it's not the Dodgers. Baseball, things can happen, but it's la.

[Joe Scarborough]

What do you think?

[David Ignatius]

Well, give us an upset.

[Joe Scarborough]

Barring injuries, 162 games, long season. If they. No injuries with the Dodgers, the Dodgers win the World Series. Yeah. If they suffer a couple of injuries, the Red Sox win the World Series. There you go. You put it out there. Who wins the World Series.

[Alex Ward]

I gotta go with. With Mike's backdoor Red Sox win.

[David Ignatius]

Oh, wow.

[Alex Ward]

My mother to the day she died in 93, was a Red Sox fan.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[David Ignatius]

What about you?

[Joe Scarborough]

God bless her. The Yankees in five. What about you, Ms? The Mets. Whoa.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Good one.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's a good call, that. Actually. That is a good call.

[Willie Geist]

All right, now to the news.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay.

[Willie Geist]

Happy opening day, everybody. President Trump and his administration continue to deny that there was any breach of national security after military plans were shared in a signal group chat with a journalist yesterday. Editor in Chief of the Atlantic Jeffrey Goldberg joined us first here on Morning Joe after sharing more of that text chain. In those messages, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth laid out how and when attacks would be carried out on Houthi rebels in Yemen despite clear evidence there was classified information. In this group chat, Hegseth and others dismissed any wrongdoing or tried to downplay the incident.

[Joe Scarborough]

I noticed this morning, out came something that doesn't look like war plans. And as a matter of fact, they even changed the title to attack plans because they know it's not war plans. There's no units, no locations, no routes, no flight paths, no sources, no methods, no classified information. My job, as it said atop of that, everybody's seen it. Now, team update is to provide updates in real time, general updates in real time. Keep everybody informed. That's what I did. That's my job. There was no classified information transmitted. There were no war plans discussed. Why did the Atlantic downgrade their allegation about war plans to attack plans? They're now playing word games because they know this was sensationalist spin from a reporter who is well known for doing this. We have said all along no war plans were discussed, no classified material was sent. You have the Secretary of Defense saying that. You have the Director of the CIA, the Director of National Intelligence, the FBI Director, all testifying to that under oath, and they should be trusted with that.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You said it's not war plans. Would you characterize these as military plans, military operation plans?

[Joe Scarborough]

I would characterize this messaging thread as a policy discussion, a sensitive policy discussion.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Surely, amongst high level cabinet officials and senior staff.

[Joe Scarborough]

And I'm so glad, Peter, that you said the American public can decide for themselves, because I think the American public should decide for themselves based on the.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Outcome of this operation.

[Joe Scarborough]

I think it's all a witch hunt. That's all. I think it's a witch hunt. I wasn't involved with it. I don't. I wasn't there. But I can tell you the result is unbelievable because the Houthis are looking to do something. They want to know, how do we stop? How do we stop? How can we have peace? The Houthis want peace because they're getting the hell knocked out of them. But somebody in my group either screwed up or it's a bad signal. You know, it's a bad signal. Happens, too, but it seems to be. Maybe came in with the staffer and it was by accident, from what we could tell. We'll know pretty much today, I think, but we have some pretty good guys checking out the phones. But it's something that is not a big deal other than you want to find out who did it and how they did it, because you don't want to happen. You know, in the future, you can have that happen. There was nothing in there that compromised, and it had no impact on the attack, which was very successful. It was a very, very successful attack. All right, you sort through all of that, everything we heard, and, yeah, the President finally got to that can't happen again. Which is a great way to start and finish, which is somebody in my administration made a mistake, which he said, it's one part, and then a lot of other words, and then that can't happen again. But in between that, everybody at the White House. Well, not everybody. I mean, Marco Rubio stood up and spoke out. But I was watching Pete Hegseth, and it reminded me of the Last Jedi at the end, where Luke Skywalker says, everything you just said is wrong. It really was. I mean, the fact that you have a secdef saying this is much ado about nothing, and it's, oh, nothing. There's nothing in there. When he's talking about but the F15s are about to launch. The target is in range. Nobody, nobody who's ever been in national security ever, ever. No general or admiral, no lower ranking officer, no NCO, no. Nobody I ever talked to in 30 years of doing this, from the Armed Services Committee to the Pentagon to talk going in and out of one White House after another White House White House would have ever said that. Which brings me to the Wall Street Journal editorial, the one right below A shock to the GOP from MAGA country, the White House protest signal. Which brings us, the Wall Street Journal editorial says, to the administration's defensive insistence that the chat didn't disclose any war plans, which is a weak attempt to obfuscation. Here is one of the messages that the Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg released on Wednesday from Defense secretary Pete Hagseth. 12:15 ET F18's launch later 15:36 F18 second strike starts also first sea based Tomahawks launched this, writes the Wall Street Journal, is obviously sensitive information about a pending attack and in the wrong hands it could have compromised the mission. It didn't and the Houthi strikes were a success and represent the best of Mr. Trump's instinc on restoring deterrence. But Mr. Hegseth on X.com on Wednesday was dismissing this episode as the media peddling hoaxes. The White House is allowing its mistake to dominate the news for days and devolve into a larger question of competence. The administration seems to think it can bully its way through anything by shouting fake news and attacking the press. Sometimes, as we said yesterday morning, it needs to admit a mistake, take the loss and move on. Which we are happy to do.

[David Ignatius]

Willie Donald Trump has one gear and so too do his underlings, Secretary Hegseth, which is blame somebody else. No surrender, no retreat. Never admit a mistake. Blame somebody else. So you get what we saw from Secretary Hegseth there? I don't think he believes a word of what he was saying. And if he does, we have a bigger problem. If he actually thinks it's okay to put what are clearly attack plans, you just laid them out. My God, they're on the front page of the New York Times this morning. The front page of the New York Times has the attack plan for this operation. If he actually believes that that's not a problem, that's an even bigger concern, I think for the country. But you have the administration kind of flailing between president of the United States saying signal could be defective, maybe the signal is bad, some suggestion he doesn't understand what signal is, which is commercial app for ease for communication, saying it's not classified. And then perhaps that Jeffrey Goldberg broke into the conversation, which is of course not what happened as he laid out and showed very clearly yesterday. So, David Ignatius, it doesn't appear that there's going to be any assumption of responsibility here. It doesn't appear there are going to be any consequences at the moment. So what are the implications of all this?

[Alex Ward]

Well, it's a sorry spectacle to see these senior officials defending in very lame terms, something that every enlisted man or woman in the US Military knows is wrong. There's been a chorus of people who have deep experience saying that. And also I've been really troubled by the personal attacks, the nasty personal attacks on our colleague Jeffrey Goldberg, who just happened to be in the wrong signal chat. What effect is this going to have? There are thousands, I want to say, hundreds of thousands of people in the military and intelligence agencies who have to live by the rules of protecting classified information. It's important that they do that. And what are they supposed to think as they hear these, this parade of excuses, denials that something they can see with their own eyes is inappropriate as happened? I think that's some of the lasting damage here, is it erodes the structure for keeping secrets, not just for this little group, but for the whole country.

[Joe Scarborough]

Ben, you know, we're going to be bringing in Alex Ward in a minute from the Wall Street Journal, but he makes a great point. You know, there as a Wall Street Journal editorial page said, they're having this semantics argument over war plans and attack plans. In a sense, attack plans are actually more dangerous. That's when you're specifically putting US Servicemen and women in harm's way. So. But it's such the White House says.

[Willie Geist]

They'Re downgrading it to attack plans, trying to distort the meaning of the word.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, again, nobody believes, literally nobody believes that that has ever spent a day. And the military are the intel community.

[David Ignatius]

We had General Hurdling here yesterday. Sorry to interrupt. Just to underline what he said, which was, well, of course, he didn't put war plans in a signal group chat that be 100 or 1000 pages broad document. But attack plans are a specific document telling me time and targets.

[Joe Scarborough]

Time. Yeah, yeah. And targets. And that's what makes it so dangerous. I want you, you had said something interesting about Donald Trump, about the president when he was saying certain things. There are a couple of tells there. He, of course, Witch Hunt does does, you know, plays all the maga hits. But there were a couple of tells there. One which was, this was a mistake. This can never happen again. That's a tell. But there was another tell in there that you said. He usually says when you. Yeah, I mean, when you know he's really angry at somebody inside the White House. Yeah.

[Mika Brzezinski]

It's something that has covered Donald Trump for a long time now. You know, when he distances himself or something. I didn't have nothing to do with it. I didn't know about that. That's a tell. And the people around him have confirmed this in the past. We're like, that means he's angry at something and somebody putting responsibility elsewhere. I didn't have anything to do with this. This is about somebody else. And further on the point, talking to people in Trump world yesterday, I mean, yes, the nonsense of the semantics of attack plan versus war plan. It's true we're not at war with Yemen, but this was an attack with the Houthis in Yemen that is still clearly very sensitive and classified information here. The question is, what's gonna happen next? There is a sense in the West Wing of circling the wagons. They're not sure they want to quote someone I spoke to yesterday, give some a scalp, particularly to a reporter, Jeffrey Goldberg, who they disliked because of the tough coverage he's given in the past. It's Trump's instinct to keep this team together, but that's not certain just yet.

[Joe Scarborough]

Not yet.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Not just yet. But it is interesting how the blame seems to be, at least within the Trump world, far more on Waltz than Hegseth. Even though the initial purpose of this group was unclassified, it was a signal group to get the names of staffers to coordinate a meeting. That's Waltz did that. He made the mistake of adding Goldberg. That's obviously a huge mistake. But it was Hegseth who then escalated by putting in the sensitive information. He's the one who actually turned this into a national security breach. But Hegseth far more popular in MAGA world than Walt. His job, at least for now, safer. Although both at this moment feel like Trump's not going to push out Mike.

[Joe Scarborough]

And it is important for us to underline again, the one person who understood this better than anybody else is a former chairman vice chair of the intel committee, Marco Rubio, who actually did come out and say, no, no, no, this was a screw up, guys, we can't do this again. You know, Jonathan mentioned the phrase, what's hap, what's going to happen next? I would ask about. And I'd Ask David Ignatius this. What is happening now across the river at the Pentagon? The military, as you know, David, is built upon command. The command structure absolutely comes with the title of responsibility. You have a responsibility to the people who are serving under you. What is going on? If you know anything at all about this in terms of morale, about over in the Pentagon, about the acting of the secretary of defense, he's not acting anymore. Who clearly is in way over his head.

[Alex Ward]

So, Mike, the latest reporting I've done really predates the signal scandals last weekend. But talking with military officers, I think there's a sense now of keeping your head down, of avoiding saying anything controversial. People are watching things that they know are wrong, but the risk of speaking out and try to do something about them is enormous. There are some people at the Pentagon who are happy to see new leadership who chafed at what they thought was overly politicized. DEI Pentagon. There are officers and enlisted people like that. But I think this is a terrible period when leaders, rather than taking responsibility, I mean, whole idea of the military is a chain of command and responsibility and, you know, responsibility should be taken at the top. And everybody knows that. And to see these top officials try to pretend that nothing happened, push off responsibility, that's got to be disturbing to everybody in a military that's already kind.

[Willie Geist]

Of dizzy, very discouraging. So up next, we're going to bring in national security reporter for the Wall Street Journal, Alex Ward. Also ahead, President Trump announces 25% tariffs on imported cars and car parts. We'll talk about what that could mean for U.S. automakers and the economy overall. Plus, the White House is facing a new legal setback following the administration's decision to deport hundreds of Venezuelan migrants to El Salvador. We'll have those details and much more straight ahead on Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds.

[Joe Scarborough]

This episode is sponsored by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. Dive into the market with E Trade's easy to use tools. And now there's even more to love. Get access to expert insights from Morgan Stanley to help navigate the markets. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Learn [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley.

[Mika Brzezinski]

MSNBC presents Main justice each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest development inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

[Joe Scarborough]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy I.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition. Main Justice. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. MSNBC presents a new original podcast hosted by Jen Psaki. Each week she and her guests explore how the Democratic Party is facing this political moment and where it's headed next.

[Gillian Tett]

There's probably both messaging and policy issues.

[Steve Ratner]

But as you look to kind of.

[Gillian Tett]

Where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

[Mika Brzezinski]

The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.

[Willie Geist]

Past the hour. Time now for a quick look some of the other stories making headlines this morning. At least two dozen people are confirmed dead in South Korea's worst ever wildfires. High winds are fanning the flames across the country's south, forcing widespread evacuations. Hundreds of structures have been destroyed, including an ancient Buddhist temple. Protests continue in Turkey one week after that country's government arrested arrested the mayor of Istanbul. He's considered a top rival to President Erdogan, who has increasingly cracked down on the opposition. More than 1300 people have been jailed in recent days as demonstrators staged nightly protests. The mayor was detained on corruption charges on the same day he was designated as his party's candidate in the next election.

[Joe Scarborough]

David, really quickly on this earth, one again, an autocrat who has taken Turkey back so many ways. But Erdogan regularly faces challenges at the ballot, at the ballot box and usually expected to win easily and usually again faces pretty strong headwinds, much like we saw Modi in India last year who was expected to trounce his rivals. But, but there is pushback against, you know, the authoritarianism, whether you're talking about the soft authoritarianism in India or what's happening, the much stronger authoritarianism in Istanbul.

[Alex Ward]

So, Joe, what's interesting about these protests is the young people out on the streets for the most part haven't known any other leader than Erdogan. He's been in power for so long. And, and my Turkish friends say pay close attention to this because it's really, it's different, the number of people, the intensity of the challenge, the fact that there is now an opposition to Erdogan. It's also interesting to me that these events followed what was apparently quite an intense phone call between President Trump and President Erdogan. We still don't know what was discussed in that, but, you know, Turkey is a critical country bordering the Ukraine war and it suddenly, you know, at least politically, seems much more fragile than it did a week ago.

[Willie Geist]

We'll be following that. And the Supreme Court has upheld a Biden administration rule that regulates ghost gun kits, which allow people to assemble firearms from parts purchased online. A 7 to 2 ruling with Justices Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito. In the dissent, the court determined ghost guns can be considered firearms and therefore may be regulated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and Explosives. But the Trump administration could still seek to rescind the rule instituted by President Biden in 2022. So there we go. And Willie, back now to President Trump.

[David Ignatius]

And his administration's attempt to deny there was any breach of national security after military plans were shared in a signal group chat with journalist Jeffrey Goldberg. Here's more from the president yesterday at the White House.

[Joe Scarborough]

You still believe nothing classified was shared? Well, that's what I've heard.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I don't know.

[Joe Scarborough]

I'm not sure. You have to ask the various people involved. I really don't know. Want to find if there's any mistake or if a signal doesn't work. It could be that signal is not very good. You know, it's a company, maybe it's not very good. I think we'd rather know about it now. There was no harm done because the attack was unbelievably successful that night.

[David Ignatius]

Could be the signal was not very good, says the president. Let's bring in national security reporter for the Wall Street Journal, Alex Ward. Alex, good morning. Thanks for being with us. Let you expand on that point a little bit, Joe mentioned earlier, which is this distinction the White House is trying to make between war plans and attack plans. What's the significance of it?

[Gillian Tett]

Sure. So war plans are, as you guys noted earlier, kind of a larger set strategic picture of how the US in this case would win a war, say the invasion of Iraq or the campaign against isis. What are the big ideas in order to defeat that enemy? An attack plan is more immediate. It's more granular. It actually talks about the systems and the assets that will be used and can talk about the times of launches of fighter jets and the times the bombs will land. And because of that, it's many military folks and national security leaders would say that it's more sensitive in the sense that if leaked, if an adversary were to get a hold of it, they would actually have a chance to scuttle the operation. It's hard to believe that the Houthis would have had that kind of capability if that were to leak. Also, based on the timing of when the fighter jets took off, etc. But the point still is that that should not be on signal and that this is. This still could have put American service members in danger. And because of that, in and of itself, it is a scandal.

[Alex Ward]

Alex, let me just jump in here. What are you hearing from people in the national security world about what effect they think this will have? Is signal more widespread in use than we had thought? Are people going to have to change the way that they're operating? What do you think?

[Gillian Tett]

Yeah, well, we do know for sure that Trump administration officials talk on signal, and I've talked to previous administration officials, Biden officials, Bush officials, Obama officials. Yeah, they all spoke, you know, on signal or versions of it. WhatsApp, regular text. That's not in and of itself not new. What does seem to be new is the discussion of military operations on signal. I mean, what really was angering a lot of people in previous administrations was they said, look, I would get called into sensitive conversations all the time, and they'd have to leave their screaming kids at home, go into the Pentagon, go into a secure facility and have that conversation, or turn, you know, open their very clunky classified computer at home, wait till it connected, or all the kinds of systems provided to principals and senior staff. The fact that they, the Trump administration, circumvented that process, while understandably more convenient and more immediate to talk on signal, negates the whole reason that this apparatus exists, which is to stop adversaries from getting access to this information, to safeguard some of the nation's most sensitive secrets, including its military operations. And so you had. I have heard from just previous administration officials, senior officials, defense secretaries, four star generals who were livid by this. And speaking of those four star generals, I talked to John Allen, who used to command troops in Afghanistan. He said if I had heard of any of my subordinates doing anything like this, immediately would have called for an investigation, would have seen if there were any risk to our troops, maybe there would have been court martials. I mean, he was pretty open about how livid he was. And Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel was, when I spoke to him, was very clear that this is about as much incompetence as he would have seen in his time in Pentagon. And he immediately also would have called for investigations, which tells you that there just is a difference in the way this administration is handling this breach of security versus how other administrations might have handled it.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, and, John, it's not just in the national security world or the intel world. I heard throughout the day yesterday. I'm sure we all did from people who served in past administrations who said, you know, they worked in the treasury, they work at treasury, they worked in the Commerce Department, they worked in like other departments. They weren't even allowed to download signal onto their, their government phones, just weren't allowed to do it and they were not allowed to talk business on signal. They and again, this is like this in the Commerce Department. So it shows you what a massive breach this was of security.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, a significant breach. And yet to Alex's point one, there seems to be no investigation undergoing here from the White House. But the Congress has said, including some Republicans saying they want to get the bottom of this, which is interesting.

[Joe Scarborough]

Roger Wicker, Senator Roger Wicker said, yeah, we need to investigate and has already.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Started calling the White House to cooperate, which is a rare moment here for Republicans to sort of defy the messaging coming from the White House. Alex, I know you also cover so well America's relationships with militaries around the world and NATO and the like a man of Brussels, if you will. So tell us a little bit about the reaction from overseas who are now, you know, our allies who are already pretty suspicious of this administration and because of the broadsides emanating from Washington against Canada, against Europe and the rest. Does this now give them pause to share intelligence, to share military planning with the US because of how cavalierly it would appear it's being tossed about in unsecure commercial apps?

[Gillian Tett]

Well, there was already skepticism from allies of sharing information and high level intelligence with the US in part because of the Trump administration's stance on the war in Ukraine and the fact that they seem to be more favorable to Russia's position. They also are skeptical of Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard for her previous stances on Syria and towards Putin. And so there now I have no direct evidence, I should note that intelligence has been withheld that has been curtailed or not shared with the US and in fact, when I talk to allies, they still expect to have a similar relationship, including the vaunted five eyes relationship with the uk, New Zealand, Canada, UK and others. That said, they have once again because of this incident mentioned that they are have pause that they are concerned that any intelligence shared by them to the United States might end up in a signal chat, might end up in a conversation with a foreign leader, including Putin, might not be as secure as it had been in the past. Now, of course there are different levels of intelligence and we don't necessarily know that. No one is really concerned that the highest level intel is going to get out there. But even if it were military operations or the movements of their troops, et cetera, that could be damaging to their nation as well. So certainly more pause than there was even just 48 hours ago.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, especially underlining all of this is what will stay long after this signal controversy ends. And that is Europe's understanding. The people that are running the White House have utter contempt for our European allies that helped us in our fight against not only the Nazis, but also the Soviet Union.

[Willie Geist]

Wall Street Journal national security reporter Alex Ward, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. His book about the Biden administration's national security team entitled the Internationalists is available now. And coming up, European leaders are meeting in Paris trying to shore up support for Ukraine. We'll have the latest on those efforts and how it could impact President Trump's ceasefire negotiations with Russia. Morning Joe. We'll be right back.

[Joe Scarborough]

This episode is sponsored by E Trade from Morgan Stanley. Dive into the market with E Trade's easy to use tools. And now there's even more to love. Get access to expert insights from Morgan Stanley to help navigate the markets. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Learn more@e trade.com terms and other fees apply. Investing involves risks. Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley.

[Mika Brzezinski]

MSNBC presents Main justice each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.

[Joe Scarborough]

The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. I think what we are seeing is.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition. Main Justice. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite show.

[Willie Geist]

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

[Mika Brzezinski]

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[Willie Geist]

The hour, look at a beautiful shot of Washington, D.C. the sun's coming up. It's a beautiful Thursday morning. President Trump has declared a new round of potentially punishing tariffs targeting foreign made cars and auto parts. The president revealed yesterday that those items will face a 25% tariff, including car parts made abroad that go into cars assembled here in the US what we're.

[Joe Scarborough]

Going to be doing is a 25% tariff on all cars that are not made in the United States. But if you build your car in the United States, there is no tariff tariff. And what that means is a lot of foreign car companies, a lot of companies are going to be in great shape because they've already built their plant, but their plants are underutilized. So they'll be able to expand them inexpensively and quickly. But others will come into our country and build and they're already looking for sites.

[Willie Geist]

Trump also said he wants interest on car loans to be tax deductible for U S made cars. The announcement comes less than a week before the president's so called Liberation Day on April 2nd. That's a massive, that's when a massive round of new tariffs is expected to hit a wide variety of goods made by many of the United States largest trading partners. Liberation Day. Joining us now, former treasury official and Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Ratner and columnist and member of the editorial board at the Financial Times Times, Gillian Tett.

[Joe Scarborough]

So, Steve, we're going to get into the effects on the economy of these tariffs, but first let's explain to our viewers what Donald Trump is trying to do, the resonance of this issue. I remember back, first time I ran for Congress, I was running against Bill Clinton's tax increases, right? But I would get out in rural parts of my district, they wanted to talk about nafta, GATT and the World Trade Organization. And I said, what? And pretty soon I realized, you know, said let's start tonight talking about nafta. But it has been, it has, I mean, the populist, you know, the populist message has been powerful for 30, 40 years. Now, if you're talking about open trade borders and you know, would always say we want fair trade, not free trade. So talk about the theory of the case for Donald Trump and the protectionists.

[Jonathan Lemire]

You know, it really goes back, Joe, a lot to Ross Perot, which you'll remember, right? He showed those charts, we like charts, some of us in the 1992 presidential campaign and talked about the great sucking sound of jobs that were going to be leaving America for Mexico and other places because of trade. And Donald Trump is like a 19th century mercantilist. He believes that trade deficits are inherently bad and it somehow represents a loss of wealth from America to other places. And as Gillian and I would, I think both agree and can talk about that's not really how it works. That's not really the point, but that's what he's pursuing. And so it's this combination of this populism you described and this 19th century view of how economy should be managed that puts us here.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, and it's interesting, you did have Ross pro doing that in 92, Pat Buchanan very successful in the Republican Party in 92, a lot of us saying the same stuff, Getting elected in 94, pro doing well again in 96. There has been a strain of this in the Republican Party. The fascinating part is that Bill Clinton and Robert Rubin had a more traditionally Republican view of trade. And that's when the unions and working class Americans started feeling left behind. That's something Donald Trump's taken advantage of politically. And it's interesting we had the head of the uaw, Sean Fain, come out yesterday praising him for this.

[Steve Ratner]

Well, there's no doubt that there has been a growing problem around the whole trade profile for many years. And so it's not surprising in some ways that the populists on both left and right are howling about this and wanting to do something. The question is whether what they're doing is the right thing to do or not. And, and frankly, I think most economists would regard what Donald Trump calls the Economic Liberation Day as economic lunacy day, because essentially what you're doing with these threatened tariffs is smashing apart business confidence because they can't plan smashing apart consumer confidence. And we've just seen consumer confidence plunge to the lowest level for 12 years. You're potentially going to have a lot of inflationary impacts again. Consumer expectations of inflation have just jumped up dramatically to above 6%, according to the Conference Board's data this week, which is astonishing given that Donald Trump campaigned on bringing down inflation. And of course, the other problem is that all of the supply chains are so integrated that if you try and hammer the bilateral trade, you're going to eventually hurt American producers as well. So car parts, or the process of making a car, crosses the US Mexican border seven times, claims back and forth along the supply chain. Now, Trump appears to have indicated that Mexico and Canada won't be caught up in the car tariffs this time around or the auto tariffs. But who knows? People are getting very nervous and uncertain.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah, one of the things, as Gillian points out, Steve, that there are going to be tariffs even on auto parts that are brought into the United States, even if the car is assembled then inside the United States. So just for people watching today who thinking about buying a car, want to buy a car, own a car, what does that mean for prices? 25%. If you talk about Mexico, Canada, but also Japan, South Korea, it means car.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Prices are going to go up. And there are estimates out there. There was one consulting firm that put out an estimate the other day that it could be anywhere from 4 to $12,000 depending upon the car that you buy. Remember one other thing about tariffs. They raised the price of cars that are imported, but they also raise the price of cars that are produced here, here. Because once the price of cars that are produced somewhere else go up, the people here who produce cars say, okay, well fine, I can now charge a few thousand dollars more for my car. So you can expect the prices really of all cars to go up for consumers as a result of this.

[Steve Ratner]

But I mean, I think that, I mean, what the Trump team are betting on is that they will be able to bully businesses into not passing prices onto consumers. And they're also betting on the idea that any inflation from this will be offset bet by more deregulation and above all else, a lower oil price or energy prices. That's a big bet. They could be right. But the problem is that pushing down energy prices right now is going to be tough when you're threatening tariffs on Canada over energy.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, but again, the big picture is Donald Trump would say we want, you know, factories to come back here, we want manufacturing to come back here, we want American cars to be made here 100%. And of course the great challenge of that is you're trying to unwind, you know, 40 years, 45 years of globalism that started when, not to personalize this, but when Mika spilled caviar in Deng Xiaoping's lap. The normalization of relations with China, 1979. I mean, so how do you unwind that in a way that doesn't shatter the economy? It's hard to see you say that.

[Mika Brzezinski]

That'S the butterfly flaps his wings moments. Mika's mishap.

[Joe Scarborough]

Exactly. Here we are.

[Mika Brzezinski]

But, but to point business leaders say how unlikely and how lengthy this product process would be. And David Ignatius, you've written about this uncertainty too. And I want to go a step further with the discussion here at the table how Trump has made this so personal. In fact, he took to Truth Social at 1:50 this morning. President was up late last night, says this. If the European Union works with Canada in order to do economic harm, the USA large scale tariffs, far larger than currently planned, will be placed on them both in order to protect the best friend that either of those two countries ever had. So all sorts of uses the post brimming with resentment and anger there from the president president to both Canada and the EU and just seemingly threats of further and further escalation and trade war.

[Alex Ward]

So, Jonathan, I think we often underestimate just how passionate Donald Trump is about tariffs. You go back years reading and listening to what he's had to say, and this has been this idea that we can somehow go back to the 19th century and build Fortress America and revive our manufacturing behind tariff walls is something he's long believed. I want to ask Gillian, Gillian, you published a very influential column, several columns, one in particular that says there's a big idea behind this tariff campaign expressed by the White House Council of Economics advisor Stephen Marin. Maybe you could just briefly explain that to people. It's one of the most insightful pieces of journalism I've seen since this began.

[Steve Ratner]

Well, thank you very much indeed and I'd commend your journalism for teaching me a lot. Briefly, it's very important to separate out what the Trump team is doing using a framework that Goldman Sachs used to teach its incoming analysts goal strategy and tactics. Goal vaguely is an instinct to so called make America great again. The strategy is to try and reset the global economic, trade, tech and military relationship relationships. The tactics are tariffs and all the threats and bullies and the uncertainty. And it's important not to confuse the tactics with a bigger goal, which is basically to try and reorientate the whole economic system. So these on off tariffs, these threats, these bullies are all about trying to soften up what Trump would regard as what he used to regard as friends. Many people now think are more like foes, soften them up to agree to some big reset of the global economic and trading system. Whether it's going to work, we don't know. But insofar as they think these tactics about trade threats and tariffs are going to keep giving them leverage and power, it's all about hegemonic power. Being the biggest bully in the room, if you like. They're going to see a lot more of these.

[David Ignatius]

Wow, Steve, you wanted to jump in. I'm also thinking about how at the early days of this administration, both Japan, then South Korea came and said we're going to invest tens of billions of dollars in America hoping to stave off some of these very tariffs. Mexico, we're going to put more troops on the border, hoping to stave off tariffs. And yet here we are.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Lemire]

And countries like Japan Said we'll buy more liquid natural gas and so on. Everybody was trying to stop this. But what I, because what I wanted to say to go to Joe's point, it also relates to Gillian's point, is that we are not going to go back to where we were in 1950 in terms of what we mean make here. We can all discuss, you know, like sort of like who lost China. We can all discuss who lost manufacturing, why it happened and why we are where we are. But we're not going to go back to where we were. And so all of these, all of what he's doing, in my opinion, is not going to reset the table. What it's going to do is basically cost consumers here a hell of a lot more money because the whole point of trade is to lower costs for people. And it was doing that. Part of why we had such a low inflation rate post the gas GFC until Covid was because we were importing a lot more and it was all cheaper and better because we were importing it. And so American consumers, we may help a few manufacturing workers, we'll see. But for the bulk of American consumers, they're simply going to find that things are more expensive and so forth. And Trump is not going to win this trade war because the trade lines are now so dispersed. There's a certain amount of manufacturing capacity, like you mentioned Hyundai and Louisiana and so forth that may come back, back here, but it's not going to, it's not going to reset the table in any way.

[Steve Ratner]

One thing very quickly. The other irony is that Trump only focuses on manufactured goods. Now, in the case of the uk, that's great news because actually we have a pretty equal trading pattern between the UK and the US he ignores services which are critical in many ways the biggest part of the global economy today. And those patterns of trade flows are often very different.

[Joe Scarborough]

You know, it's so interesting. You know, I grew up, you have people like Donald Trump, Pat Buchanan, others. His formative years were in the 50s and the 60s. They remember, like post war America. But I grew up, I was younger, I remember in the 70s, the mid-70s, in the backseat in the car, my parents grousing about, you know, all the jobs going over to Japan and all the cars being in Japan and this company going down and sort of this post industrial rot era. I mean, if you go even into the like early 90s, Bill Clinton goes to New Hampshire, what's he talking about? Deindustrialization. And then it gets worse throughout the night. I mean, this has been going on since 1979. It's called globalization. And we can't go back to 1950. 1960. But I will say a lot of these baby boomers look back at those glory days, and they're trying to recapture that every. Every step of the way.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah. It's a question whether you want to turn the clock backwards or look ahead.

[Joe Scarborough]

We can't turn the clock backwards.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I'm agreeing with you. And what we have to recognize is we have enormous strengths. Gillian mentioned services. We're enormous importers of services. When someone comes here to study at one of our universities, that's counted as an importance. When tourists come here, when people come to be treated at the Mayo Clinic or the Cleveland Clinic from overseas, that counts as. That counts as an export that we are making. And so this is our comparative strength. I was in California and San Francisco last week, and obviously, what's going on out there in AI and technology is unbelievably exciting. Now, of course, not every American is going to get retrained to become a computer programmer to develop AI. I know that. But we are too focused on turning the clock backwards, as you said, and not focused enough on turning the clock forward.

[Joe Scarborough]

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[Mika Brzezinski]

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[Joe Scarborough]

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[Mika Brzezinski]

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[Joe Scarborough]

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