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- [00:00]
Mika Brzezinski
You know we love a good debate, right? Digging deep on the issues. It's kind of our thing. But here's something that shouldn't need in depth analysis. No matter what's happening in our country, people still need health care.
- [00:12]
Joe Scarborough
That should be obvious, right?
- [00:14]
Mika Brzezinski
That's why Planned Parenthood health centers are here to provide birth control, cancer screenings, abortion and more without judgment. But they can't do it alone. If you believe everyone deserves access to care, donate now@plannedparenthood.org defend because healthcare shouldn't be up for debate Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out procrastination, putting it off, kicking the can down the road in plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done out carpet in the bathroom. Like why? In knowing what to do, when to do it and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download thumbtack Today.
- [01:01]
John Heilman
I asked the vice president if Abrego Garcia has not committed a crime and the US Courts have found that he was illegally taken for the United States and the governor government of El Salvador has no evidence that he was part of Ms. 13, why is El Salvador continuing to hold him in SICOT? And his answer was that the Trump administration is paying El Salvador, the government of El Salvador to keep him at cecop.
- [01:43]
Mika Brzezinski
Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland in El Salvador yesterday after being denied any access to Kilmar Abrego. It comes as the judge overseeing the Alien Enemies act case says there is probable cause to hold the Trump administration in contempt of court. We'll bring you expert legal analysis on both cases. Plus we'll dig into the new comments from Fed Chair Jerome Powell amid Trump's trade war with China. And we'll have a look at the latest rally for Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez drawing another huge crowd in a deep red state. What does it all mean? Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Thursday, everyone. April 17th. We're almost through the week. With us, we have NBC News national. We do have NBC News national affairs analyst and partner and chief political columnist at Puck, John Heilman. Thank you, sir, very much. In place, ready to go. Top of the show. Very impressive, Claire. A couple of times he just wasn't there.
- [02:54]
Claire McCaskill
Well, it's always impressive when Hyman gets up early.
- [02:58]
Mika Brzezinski
It's that and Barney. Yeah, no, I know. I'm introducing him and I'm filled with angst because I don't know if his picture's actually going to pop up. But he leaves us kind of waiting. I guess it's kind of a draw. All right. NBC News political analyst former US Senator Claire McCaskill, always on time, even on Central time. But here she is with us on the East Coast. Host of Pablo Torre finds out on Meadowlark Media. MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre, White House correspondent for Reuters, Jeff Mason. A lot to talk to Jeff about today. Thank you for coming in. And speaking of a lot to talk about, she doesn't stop working because the legal news doesn't stop coming. MSNBC legal correspondent and former litigator Lisa Rubin is here. So let's get right to it. Remember, this is a fun show, right?
- [03:48]
Pablo Torre
Absolutely.
- [03:48]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah. Except our new brand is nothing about this is fun. Right. At least that's what we were saying the other day. Nothing about this is fun. But we're muddling through as best we can. The federal judge overseeing the Alien Enemies act case says he has found probable cause to hold the Trump administration in contempt of court. In a new filing yesterday, Judge James Boasberg said the White House actions demonstrate a willful disregard of the court's order. He added, the court does not reach such conclusion lightly or hastily. Indeed, it has given defendants ample opportunity to rectify or explain their actions. None of their responses have been satisfactory. Last month at an emergency hearing, Judge Boasberg ordered the Department of Justice to turn around planes heading to El Salvador with hundreds of alleged Venezuelan gang members on board, no one getting the process that they should have had to be put on a flight such as this or leave the country. Thrown out, the flights did not return to the US as ordered. The Justice Department stonewalled Boasburg from learning additional details about the timing of the flights. Judge Boasberg says he will give the government a chance to remedy the situation, but if it doesn't, he'll proceed to identify the people in contempt and refer the matter for prosecution. I'm going to go to Claire. You can take it to Lisa. The two legal minds at the table here. I guess, first of all, what has always been a little bit troubling to me in the coverage of the Abrego Garcia story is that that is a horrific story. And it absolutely, I guess on a political level might actually move the meter a little bit. It gives a name, a face, a family to this incredible story of, of our laws being pushed to the limit or maybe even broken. And at the same time, all these other deportations. Claire, in a way, calling Abrego Garcia a mistake is sort of giving subversive validation to these Other deportees, all of their cases are legally questionable as well. And they continue these flights. Continue your thoughts? Yeah.
- [06:10]
Claire McCaskill
I think that what this administration is doing is deciding that it's okay to be lawless. Keep in mind, there are ways to deport people in this country legally, and they have all kinds of ways they can, in fact, make these deportations go more quickly. But the things they're doing now, many of them are really running afoul of the majority of what America thinks. I don't think the majority of America thinks that, that you should revoke all the student visas of foreign students without any kind of rhyme or reason other than that they may have a different opinion than you do. I don't think, frankly, they think that someone who's lived in this country and has children and is married and has never broken the law should be deported, especially if they've been here for a decade or longer. That's not what America thinks. In fact, polling backs me up on this. So if they really want to deport folks, then all they've got to do is use the law to do it.
- [07:06]
Mika Brzezinski
Deport folks. Yeah.
- [07:07]
Claire McCaskill
And I don't think, I mean, most Americans think criminals that are here illegally should be deported. Focus on that and quit doing this lawless stuff. That frankly, they're going to lose a big chunk, especially of independent voters.
- [07:20]
Mika Brzezinski
And let me just jump in, if you guys could pull up the Hillary Clinton. She posted, I believe, on Blue sky or Instagram yesterday. I'm going to read that, go back to you and you can take it to Lisa. You'll have a way better question than me because you guys are deep into this, an understanding of the law. But Trump TV will tell you that. Oh, the lefties on msnbc, the Democrats, they don't want gang members to be thrown out of this country. Listen to them. That is not what we're saying. Just FYI, everybody wants criminals and gang members to be put into jail or put in a situation where they can't hurt people. Again, we're all with you there. You can't say that because you're lying when you do. What we are saying is that people deserve the process that is due to them, whether they are illegal immigrants or American citizens. And none of these people received any of that. And many of these people are being defamed by Trump tv, defamed by the president, defamed by Pam Bondi, defamed and being labeled things that they may not be. And in the case of Abrego Garcia, they're taking a baseball hat. A baseball hat, and saying he's a terrorist because he's wearing a baseball hat. Who's crazy? Okay, so back to the Hillary Clinton post. Claire, she put this up. I don't know if it was yesterday, but it came my way before the election. I warned that there's no safe haven under authoritarianism. If they can ship Kilmar Abrego Garcia to a foreign prison accused of no crime with no trial, they can do it to anyone. Americans of conscience must stand against this now. And, you know, the hope is, Claire, that there is a groundswell of support for our country, in this country, for our Constitution.
- [09:24]
Claire McCaskill
Absolutely. And speaking of the Constitution, this fire hose of legal cases that you are. I'm sure you've got some giant spreadsheet in your head, Lisa, but there are so many cases that are careening towards the ultimate showdown in the Supreme Court. How quickly will this Boasberg decision get to the Supreme Court, if at all?
- [09:47]
Joe Scarborough
I think there's a possibility that not this particular decision, but something stemming from it, Claire. Is going to end up at the Supreme Court. Ultimately, right now, all we have is a decision saying that he's found probable cause, that there is not just contempt, Mika, but criminal contempt. And I want to play out what that means. There are lots of different forms of judicial contempt, as Claire knows. Usually what happens in a case is you start from civil contempt, which is a fine, and then it might escalate if the disobedience continues here. Boasberg has found that there's probable cause already to find that there's criminal contempt, and he's given the government two choices. And the choices are by April 23, a week from yesterday, you do one of two things. You either purge the contempt or you identify the people who are responsible for having made the decision not to turn the first two of the three planes that left on March 15th around. Now, Mr. Abrego Garcia is on the third of those planes somewhere north of 100. Alleged members of Trin de Aragua are on the first two. But I want to underscore for our viewers how easy it would be to purge the contempt and what it means to cure it, because it's not that he's telling them, release all of these people from an El Salvadoran prison. All he's saying to them is, you don't. He says this directly. I'm going to read from the order. Per the terms of the tro, meaning his own temporary restraining order, the government would not need to release any of those individuals, nor would it need to transport them back to the homeland, meaning the United States. All they have to do is retake custody of these people, put them back in US Hands, assure that their rights are being respected, as opposed to placing them in a notorious Salvadoran prison that looks more like a concentration camp than it does anything resembling an American prison that I've been to see clients in. For example, Claire, you might have visited in your capacity as a law enforcement officer at some point in time. That is really startling, I think, because I don't think people appreciate that's all the government needs to do here to resolve this issue. That could lead to a showdown with the court. The other thing I want to underscore is that if we get to a point where the government says, okay, we're going to identify people. And Mika, you mentioned that he could appoint a prosecutor. There are going to be people on the right who say this is further proof that he is just lawless. He, meaning Judge Boasberg. And there is ample precedent for doing so. The Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure require that in a situation of criminal contempt, you refer to the Department of Justice. And if the Department of Justice says, no, we don't think a crime was committed here, the judge has every right to choose a lawyer of his or her own choosing to basically stand in the shoes of the government and prosecute a criminal contempt. And it's happened before. It's happened here in New York. There's a sort of infamous environmental lawyer named Steven Donziger who served a term in prison for exactly this, for criminal contempt, where there was a civil litigation. He was referred by a judge here in the Southern District. That case went up to the Supreme Court after his conviction was affirmed by an appeals court. And guess what? Supreme Court did nothing to rescue him from that. So in the event that we get to a place where there is a finding of criminal contempt because there was a prosecutor appointed, make no mistake, we've seen that movie before. It won't be something wholly novel to this country.
- [13:15]
Mika Brzezinski
All right, well. And we continue now. The Trump administration yesterday, as I mentioned, released new documents in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Attorney General Pam Bondi took to social media to post his 2019 immigration court records after weeks of pressure on the government to prove its contention that Abrego Garcia was a gang member. The documents describe how police officers in Maryland approached Abrego Garcia, along with three other people, for loitering at a Home Depot parking lot. Officials say he was wearing a Chicago Bulls hat. It's basketball, but baseball hat and a hoodie with markings that were allegedly indicative of Hispanic gang culture and symbolizes a, quote, member in good standing. At the time of his arrest, Abrego Garcia had no criminal history. The Department of Homeland Security also released records that said he was detained in connection to a 2019 murder investigation. Abrego Garcia denied he was ever involved and was never charged. DHS also released more documents revealing that Abrego Garcia's wife sought a temporary protective order against him in 2021. She says at the time it was out of abundance of caution and the couple had worked through their issues. A month later, the case was dismissed. In a statement about the incident, his wife wrote in part, no one is perfect and no marriage is perfect. That is not a justification for ISIS action of abducting him and deporting him to a country where he was supposed to be protected from deportation. White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt doubled down on the administration's stance, stating that Abrego Garcia will never live in the US Again. As far as his current condition, DHS says there are no further updates. And it's not just those on the left calling for due process. Here we've heard from the editors at the National Review, the Wall Street Journal editorial board, Fox News contributor Andy McCarthy, Joe Rogan, all speaking out for due process, however that turns out. But due process. And Fox News host and former Republican congressman and federal prosecutor Trey Gowdy yesterday criticized the Trump administration for how it's handling the Supreme Court order to facilitate the return of Kilmar Abrego Garcia to the U.S. take a look.
- [15:55]
Jeff Mason
I mean, I think what they ought to do is probably follow the judge's order and the Supreme Court decision, which used the word facilitate. Also in that opinion. More though were the words accidental mistake. I mean, those are not three good words you want in a Supreme Court decision. If the president doesn't agree with that and he may not then bring him back and then remove him to another country, appeal the removal order. But what we can't have is any executive disobeying or not following a judge's decision, even if you disagree with it.
- [16:31]
Mika Brzezinski
So a few voices there, which is something Pablo. And also we're seeing, you know, a smattering of voices in some of these town halls where maybe even red state Americans might say, hey, hey, hey, can we just do things the right way?
- [16:48]
Pablo Torre
Yeah. I want to be clear about something, Mika. Right now, what Trump tv, as you put it, is doing is asking you to look at an inkblot test. And they're saying, what do you see? Here are the details. Here's a man never charged with a crime, but he's had problems in his marriage, but he was found in this parking lot with alleged gang affiliated caps, hoodies, that stuff. And what I want to make clear is that you actually don't need to respect Kilmar Abrego Garcia as a man in order to come to a clear conclusion on this matter. It's whether you respect the law, right? It's not about whether he's a good guy. It's about whether the process, the system, the rule of law is worthy of protection. Even when it's an unpopular person, even if it's not an ambiguous inkblot, even when it's a guy, you clearly think, I don't want that person living next to me in my neighborhood. Even if I grant you that, it's.
- [17:44]
Mika Brzezinski
Why I read Hillary Clinton's post and it's why this is about.
- [17:48]
Pablo Torre
And it's why we're seeing a coalition of people at the Wall Street Journal, serious conservative thinkers say to themselves, this is beyond the pale. And when we say deportation, I also want to make clear as well, one more thing. We're talking about an El Salvadorian concentration camp, a prison camp, a terrorist holding facility run by a guy who calls himself the world's coolest dictator. And I just have to, I have to keep on stressing that because we're making a choice about whether we care about how America figures out whether someone is worthy of punishment or not. And you do that as you've established now through the legal system. And that's what we're not doing by indulging Bukele and Trump.
- [18:33]
Mika Brzezinski
I think you are actually paring it down to this is really good because the question for Americans is, is it okay with you that hundreds of men, allegedly, but no one's giving the due process, the proof, the court proceeding, accused of crimes by members of the administration, by people on television. John Heilman, I just wonder if there are political consequences to this. When you take a group of people and remove them and send them to a prison that is pretty much like a concentration camp where some of them probably won't come out alive or will never see the light of day. Are, are Americans okay with that and are they okay with going a step further, which is what Donald Trump is talking about? And we of course remind our viewers who were all there during the election, he said he wanted to do tariffs. He's doing tariffs. He said he wanted to do mass deportations. He's trying. The numbers are tough to meet. So, you know, it's not like we should be surprised. But will Americans be okay with what is happening here before it grows into something else, which Trump is telling us about?
- [19:54]
Jeff Mason
Well, Mika, I wish I had the crystal ball here on what Americans will or won't be okay with. So many of these things we're seeing are things we've never seen before and we don't really have any precedent to make any judgment about it. I would say there are a lot of Americans who in the abstract do not care about due process. There are a lot of Americans who are fine with the notion if all they're presented with is the notion of bad guy, gang member, criminal, they don't particularly mind. I'm not speaking for myself here, but they don't particularly mind if they're sent out of the country. I don't think they particularly mind if they're given due process. I don't think they particularly mind if they're sent to a, a brutal gulag concentration camp level facility in El Salvador. I'm afraid the matter is that there are a lot of Americans who don't care about that. There are also a lot of Americans who do. This is what we, we have a very, very divided country and there's a great split about this. And the arguments in favor of civil liberties due process have not been clear cut political winners over the course of recent American history. However, here's what I think a lot of Americans do overwhelmingly, to Claire's point about what the polling suggests, I don't think that a lot of Americans support the notion of people who have been living in the country under any immigration status, who've been here for a long time, who have not been convicted of crimes, who have not been charged of crimes, who have held down jobs, who have families, who are married. In some cases, as is the case with Kilmar Abrego Garcia, married to an American citizen. There is an overwhelming body of data that shows that most Americans are not in favor of those people being sent anywhere, not just to a gulag, but being deported even from the country at all. And further, and finally, I will say that the other thing that I think that a lot of Americans instinctively find problematic is the notion that Donald Trump or any president would stand up on a routine basis and say I am the law and court orders are not for me. 90 Decisions by the Supreme Court go pound sand. Supreme Court. Flipping the middle finger to the Supreme Court and to all the lower courts I think is a thing that gives A lot of Americans, a lot of pause and you're starting to see that is a thing that you're starting to pop up in some of these town hall meetings where Americans are just kind of like I don't want, I can't really necessarily tell you my theory of government, but I like the fact that we have a few branches that climb back, balance each other out and they don't like the idea of having an all powerful executive.
- [22:41]
Mika Brzezinski
Well, Halman, it's like the guy at the Grassley town hall who said, you know, if I get a $1200 ticket and I don't pay it, does that stand up? I mean that's bringing it down to how it impacts everyday Americans lives. So Jeff, what's your reporting reporter's mind? What stands out to you in there's these two stories that are really converging. It's the bigger story of all the deportations that took place, the gauzy video that was made of these people being treated like animals, chained and dragged out of the country and thrown into a gulag. I just, this is America 2025 and the one and then down to the one story, I guess the face of the story which is Mr. Garcia.
- [23:27]
Lisa Rubin
Yeah. So I'm a White House reporter, so I'm going to look at it. I hear you from my, please, my sort of wheelhouse which is politics. And I think there's a political aspect to this and there's a legal aspect to this which you're much better at talking about. But I'll start with the legal piece which is I think many people are seeing the beginning of or the potential for a constitutional crisis because of the Trump administration and the president's willingness to basically challenge the courts and to challenge these court rulings. I asked the president last weekend, I was traveling with him to Florida if he would respect the Supreme Court's decision or with the Supreme Court's order to facilitate this the return of Mr. Abrego Garc he said if the Supreme Court says we have to return him, we'll return him. And then I said, well what about the lower courts? And he wouldn't engage on that. So I think and the president has said multiple times that he will respect the Supreme Court. I think he does respect the Supreme Court, but I think he's also very willing to see this and every other battle that he's fighting right now go all the way up to the Supreme Court on the political side. The fact and I was glad you played or you you mentioned what Caroline Levitt said Yesterday, I think they're clearly feeling the heat because the fact that yesterday she brought out a mother whose daughter had died, was killed brutally by a person who was here illegally. She's trying, with that kind of move, to say, as you said earlier, Democrats, the media, everyone is pushing for this man to come back. Why aren't you looking over here? Those things don't have to be mutually exclusive, and I think that's showing that they're beginning to feel a little bit of political pressure.
- [25:03]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah. Lisa, where is this going next? What should we be watching for?
- [25:07]
Joe Scarborough
I think you should circle April 23rd on your calendar. It's the date where not only do the Department of Justice and many of the defendants owe an answer to Judge Boasberg, but it's also the date where the judge in the Abrego Garcia case has said, plaintiffs, that's your deadline for your first deposition. She's already told them, as she barrels toward a contempt hearing of her own. You can make four depositions of the four people who have put declarations sworn under oath in my court, refusing to really give me the information that I've required about this man's whereabouts and what efforts the government has taken to return him. So April 23rd is going to be a big day. Mika, I just want to add one more thing about the constitutional crisis that some people feel is impending. I interviewed a law professor at Columbia yesterday, Jamal Green. He's an expert in constitutional law. And I asked him, when do you see this constitutional crisis coming? He said, we're already there because most of what happens in this country in terms of our fidelity to the Constitution, never happens in a court of law. It happens behind the scenes. And what determines whether or not we are faithful to the Constitution is largely behind closed doors in terms of the executive branch's willingness to monitor themselves, to hold themselves back. He said we hit that constitutional crisis on day one with the Birthright Citizenship executive order and all of the executive orders that followed, including the one on February 20 that named a number of these gangs, foreign terrorist organizations that set into motion the events that we're all talking about right here and now.
- [26:40]
Lisa Rubin
I would also add that it's not hyperbole to raise questions about whether he would do the administration would do this to American citizens because he has floated it himself, Right?
- [26:48]
Pablo Torre
Yes.
- [26:49]
Lisa Rubin
So that is not just crummies made up threat. That's something that's quoting the president, United States.
- [26:56]
Mika Brzezinski
Yep. So we have a piece that we're going to read from Ed Loose coming up that really plays into what you're saying here. MSNBC legal correspondent and host of Can they do that on YouTube? Lisa Rubin, thank you so much for coming on this morning explaining everything. Still ahead on Morning Joe, Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell is warning inflation is likely to rise because of President Trump's tariffs will play for you those comments along with his reference to the movie Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Also ahead, Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, who sits on the Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, will join the conversation. You're watching Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds. Foreign auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it, so don't get stuck paying more for less coverage.
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Lisa Rubin
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Mika Brzezinski
Could start saving money in no time.
- [28:01]
Lisa Rubin
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John Heilman
Restrictions apply.
- [28:04]
Mika Brzezinski
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- [28:27]
Joe Scarborough
Well, everything from first steps to first dates, from all nighters to all time.
- [28:33]
Lisa Rubin
Personal bests, from building pillow forts to.
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Joe Scarborough
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- [28:55]
Jeff Mason
And Great Chicagoan Ferris Bueller once noted, life moves pretty fast. For the time being, we are well positioned to wait for greater clarity before considering any adjustments to our policy stance.
- [29:12]
Mika Brzezinski
Wow. Jerome Powell yesterday making a Ferris Bueller reference during a speech at the Economic Club of Chicago. The Fed Chair is warning President Trump's tariffs could spur a temporary rise in inflation.
- [29:26]
Jeff Mason
The level of tariff increases announced so far is significantly larger than anticipated and the same is likely to be true of the economic effects. Tariffs are highly likely to generate at least a temporary rise in inflation. Inflationary effects could also be more persistent. Avoiding that outcome will depend on the size of the effects, on how long it takes for them to pass through fully to prices, and ultimately on keeping longer term inflation expectations well anchored.
- [29:56]
Mika Brzezinski
Powell's comments triggered a market sell off and all three indexes ended the day in the red. Let's bring in former treasury official and Morning Joe economic analyst Steve Rattner. You've got some charts for us, but first, what do you make of the Fed Chair's comments?
- [30:11]
John Heilman
It was an important speech because, excuse me, because The Fed chairman had been pretty quiet about all this tariff stuff and what the impact was likely to be. The market's been wondering because as we've talked about many, many times on the show, tariffs are inflationary. They're also, I don't want to say recessionary, but a drag on economic growth because higher inflation means people buy less and the economy slows down and so forth. And so the Fed is sort of between a rock and place. So you remember that the Fed's goal, and they've been very, very clear and explicit about it, is 2% inflation. Inflation's been running about 3%. Powell keeps reiterating 2% inflation. But now you have an economy that's slowing down. And so the question is, is the Fed going to try to help? And market, as I said, has been wondering about this. I think what you heard yesterday is one thing that we know, which is a very, very tough and difficult decision for the Fed. What do they actually do? And I think as the lead in said, the market took it as a hawkish sign that the Fed was going to be tough on inflation. And so the market went down because high interest rates are the enemy of the stock market, basically.
- [31:17]
Mika Brzezinski
So we're going to get to your charts in just a moment. But Claire, I'm just. Trump posted yesterday, I guess he didn't like Powell's speech. He posted that this, this, that this morning. Among other things. He says there Powell's termination cannot come fast enough. But nobody likes these, who likes these tariffs except for the, like Steve Miller. Is there one other guy? Alutnik and Donald Trump? I mean, who's in support of what is happening to the nation's economy right now?
- [31:48]
Lisa Rubin
Peter Navarro.
- [31:49]
Mika Brzezinski
Peter Navarro, you got me. I mean, I haven't seen Elon Musk in a while and we're going to talk maybe about why in just a moment.
- [32:02]
John Heilman
But can I just say one quick thing before Clara, because this is really important. This is really important, which is when Trump says he hates Powell, the question is, what does he want? Does he want someone who's just going to cut interest rates, which is what he's implied, which would be really bad for inflation, which we are now committed to getting back to 2%. And so sorry, Claire, but I listen.
- [32:25]
Claire McCaskill
The thing about his speech yesterday that struck me is that he's waiting for clarity. Well, that's like saying I'm going to see the real Easter Bunny on Sunday because this administration is specializing in chaos, right?
- [32:38]
Mika Brzezinski
In lack of clarity.
- [32:39]
Claire McCaskill
And the one thing that Trump is learning and you Know, if he were to try to get rid of Powell, that would just be more chaotic, that would be more damaging in terms of what it would mean to our economy. So he can bully a lot of people. He can try to bully news outlets. He can try to bully universities. He's obviously successfully bullied some of the largest, most successful law firms in the country, brought them to their knees like little baby cowards they are. But he can't bully investors. He can't say to the rest of the world, you can trust us now. And they can see with their own eyes. They can't.
- [33:17]
Mika Brzezinski
Right.
- [33:17]
Claire McCaskill
So he's really. Trump is. And he will be captured by the stock market in terms of his political popularity. People like to say, well, only rich people have stocks. There is a huge number of people whose 401s, especially people near retirement, they're dwindling in front of their very eyes, and they are in a state of panic about. So, politically, Donald Trump has a problem because he can't control investors that are turning their back on the United States Bonds.
- [33:48]
Mika Brzezinski
Okay, I just have to make one clarification for our viewers. I know that we have been on the air for 18 years now, and people say, I grew up watching you, so I know that there are children watching. And Claire's wrong. The Easter Bunny is very real. And you're gonna get lots of eggs, and they're gonna have little treats and stuff.
- [34:06]
Pablo Torre
My daughter, if she's awake right now. Violet, don't listen to Claire McCaskill.
- [34:12]
Mika Brzezinski
It's gonna be okay.
- [34:15]
Pablo Torre
That is fake news. That part is fake news.
- [34:19]
Claire McCaskill
If your child that believes in the Easter Bunny is watching this program. Yeah, because the parents are watching. Well, I guess that's true. I guess it's possible.
- [34:26]
Mika Brzezinski
We're back. Sorry.
- [34:29]
Claire McCaskill
I've seen grandchildren, so I should know better.
- [34:31]
Mika Brzezinski
I've gotten. I grew up watching Morning Joe. I think Pablo actually said that to me, which really hurt me. Yikes.
- [34:38]
Pablo Torre
Still paying the price for that. Actuarial. Honest.
- [34:42]
Mika Brzezinski
Jeff, I know you're leaving. So final word here. Easter Bunny, go.
- [34:45]
Lisa Rubin
Well, I was going to say final word, politics. Although I'm sure we can bring Easter Bunny into that, too. President Trump, as a candidate, promised to bring down inflation. And that was one of the key things that he promised as a presidential candidate. He also promised to bring on tariffs. And as you said earlier, everything he's doing are things that he has given people a heads up about.
- [35:05]
Mika Brzezinski
Yes.
- [35:06]
Lisa Rubin
But those two things are colliding, and the politics will come to collide as well. I think pretty Quickly if those prices do not come down.
- [35:12]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, no, I mean, he's promised a lot of these things that are happening and that's why can't be shocked. But it still can be deeply troubling. White House correspondent for Reuters, Jeff Mason. Thank you very much. We're going to get to Steve's charts after a break, but let's take a moment to take a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. Puerto Rico is in the middle of an island wide blackout. More than 1.4 million people lost electricity yesterday afternoon. Officials say a problem near a transmission line knocked out service to the island's power plants. It's expected to take up to 72 hours to fully restore the power. All the hospitals are now operating under generators. The Trump administration is changing its policy about which news outlets cover the president each day. Wire services, which usually include the Associated Press, Bloomberg News and Reuters, will no longer have a permanent place in the White House daily press pool. They'll be now placed in a larger rotation with roughly 30 other newspapers and print outlets. Jeff, just. That's just quick. Chime in just that it's a, it's.
- [36:22]
Lisa Rubin
A blow to keeping independent news reporters and agencies in the pool. It affects my company, it affects me, and it affects the ability for people who are straight down the middle reporters to ask questions that are important to the President.
- [36:34]
Mika Brzezinski
The Associated Press claims this violates a court order that says the administration does not have sole discretion on who gets to ask the president questions. Of course, we'll be following that. And NASA's James Webb Telescope has detected a potential hint of life on a planet that's 100 light years away. Researchers say the telescope found signs of a molecule that on Earth has only one known source, simple organisms such as marine algae. Early observations also suggest the planet's atmosphere is consistent with the presence of a global ocean. More evidence still needs to be collected. Maybe the. I can't do it. I shouldn't do it. I was going to say maybe the ladies of blue origin should go check it out.
- [37:22]
Pablo Torre
I feel like there are simple organisms here on Earth. Nico. I feel like we are, I think.
- [37:27]
Mika Brzezinski
I'm with Priceline. I'm with Shatner. I'm with Shatner. Captain Kirk read Shatner's comments about his experience in space. Incredible. Coming up, Steve Ratner has a closer look at Tesla's drop in sales as Elon Musk continues to slash the federal workforce through his Department of Government Efficiency. Morning Joe will be right back. Earn a business degree on your terms at Capella University. Our Flexpath format is available in select programs and lets you learn on your schedule. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more@capella.edu.
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- [39:31]
Mika Brzezinski
Beautiful shot of New York City thanks to chopper4 for you this morning. Gorgeous sunrise as billionaire Elon Musk continues his work with the Department of Government Efficiency. He has not spoken much about his company Tesla, as new data shows its electronic vehicle. While the sales fell almost 9% in the first three months of 2025, what could be behind that? Steve Rattner has made his way over to the Southwest wall with his charts. Let's start with Tesla. What's going on there? Steve?
- [40:05]
John Heilman
Yeah, Mik, as you said, Tesla is actually hit a bit of a bump in the road. No pun intended. But you can see here that Tesla in its early years had huge sales increases, as you would expect. Very popular, one of the few makers of really good electric vehicles in the country. But beginning in 2025, its sales kind of stagnated. Combination of really two reasons. One, some competition, more competition from other people trying to get in the business, including domestic manufacturers. And also the fact that people are getting their models Y and S, two of their most popular models getting a little bit long in the tooth, so to speak. But look what happened here in the first quarter. In the first quarter their sales went down 13% more than they've ever done before. And that's across the world. If you look at just the US you can see that all US EV sales are actually up 11% and Tesla was down 9%. And so what I think you are starting to see, and I'll get to this a bit more in a second, you are starting to see Musk's unpopularity weigh on Tesla's sales. Some of it is expected. Their market share, when you start with a very, very high market share, really only one way to go. And as I said, other people are making them. But look what happened in Europe. In the first quarter, in Europe, their market share dropped enormously. And this I do think is heavily related to the unpopularity of both American products, frankly, as well as Elon Musk in Europe.
- [41:26]
Mika Brzezinski
Interesting. And so Tesla tanking. What's the reason behind it?
- [41:31]
John Heilman
So, yes, you can see the Tesla stock back in September, October was down here. It had this. When Trump was elected, it took this huge run up because people thought that Musk was simply going to be a great beneficiary of the federal government's largesse. And then you can see that along with all the chaos and commotion and Trump's own personal issues, you can see Tesla stocks gone all the way back down. But Morgan Stanley did a survey and they found that 85% of investors think that Musk's political activities are going to have a negative impact on Tesla's business fundamentals. And so again, I think the market is starting to say that Musk is becoming too hot to handle, so to speak. But one other point about Musk that's worth making, which is that for all his talk about being anti government, anti government programs and things like that, Tesla has been an unbelievable beneficiary of government at large s. And so this is year by year, you can see here the biggest piece of all of this, about $1.7 billion are electric vehicle credits that Tesla sells to other automakers who are forced to comply with our electric vehicle and our fuel emission standards. So ironically, a program that Trump has talked about killing is one of the ones that Musk has been the biggest beneficiary of.
- [42:49]
Mika Brzezinski
So let's just talk about Musk overall and doge. I mean, the promises were, I don't know, target cutting 1500-020020-00000,000 annually from the budget. I mean, they went in there, a bunch of people with, I believe, no clearance, no cabinet position. So there's those issues and those questions that have a lot of us wondering. But okay, so what's been the outcome of these grand projections?
- [43:18]
John Heilman
So, yeah, as you said, there's been an enormous amount of commotion. You've had a bunch of people lose their jobs, you've had confusion all over the place. What do we have to show for it? Well, back during the campaign, Trump claimed that he was going to cut $2 trillion from our annual budget. And by the way, our annual budget is 7 trillion. So you're talking, he would have been talking, obviously, about a massive, massive cut. They quickly realized that was not successful. In January, they said, we'll cut a trillion out of the budget. And by the way, the government's fiscal year is now more than half over anyway. But then on April 10, they lowered it to $150 billion. So 2 trillion. One trillion, 150. But even the 150 billion. The new York Times did a very thorough investigation of this. 92 billion of it is unspecified. Nobody knows where that's coming from. Of the other 63 billion, there were all kinds of mistakes, including, for example, a contract for 1.9 billion they claim credit for actually cancelled during the Biden administration. So for all the commotion, all the layoffs, all the unhappy people, there's very little to show for it. You can see that most clearly over here because this tracks federal spending month by month since the beginning of each year, back from 2022. And as you would expect, it went up a little bit in 23, a little bit in 24, but it's actually gone up a good bit in 25. So there's still no impact whatsoever on the, on government spending from all of, as I said, the commotion that Musk has created in Washington.
- [44:42]
Mika Brzezinski
Wow. Morning Joe. Economic analyst Steve Ratner, thank you very much for coming on this morning. And John Hallman, your thoughts on how Doge is doing?
- [44:54]
Jeff Mason
Well, Mika, to Steve's point, I think some of us said from the very beginning that given the composition of the federal government and the federal budget, given how much of that goes to the big entitlement programs and defense spending, that you are not going to have much of an impact on the budget unless you started to take on some of those large programs. And so Elon Musk, he put his hand on the hot stove when he talked about how Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. People immediately bridled at that. That became a political liability for the Trump team. And Elon Musk made himself, as you'll remember, the face of that Wisconsin judicial election. He took a drubbing there. There's now been a lot of data that's looked at that election that showed that for all the money that he spent on that conservative judicial Supreme Court candidate, that he actually hurt the candidate more than he helped the candidate. And the Trump administration very quickly has been kind of ditching musk and decoupling itself from musk because he's become so unpopular. And just to get back to one thing Steve was saying a second ago, I am not a stock market analyst, but I'll tell you, when a thing starts to have a name out in America, Tesla regret syndrome. People are out there in the world right now peeling the Tesla. Not the logo but the little symbol that they have on the car. People who own those cars are now going to places to have the Tesla symbol removed and replaced with an Audi symbol or a Toyota symbol or something else because people are now embarrassed. Have buyers remorse over driving Teslas around. That cannot be good for business, Mika.
- [46:36]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, that's. Yeah. Better than other things that have been happening.
- [46:40]
Claire McCaskill
Can we talk about his legions of children in the Wall Street Journal expose, please? Oh please. He's Dming women on Twitter and saying have my baby.
- [46:49]
Mika Brzezinski
What is that?
- [46:50]
Claire McCaskill
And giving them his sperm. And then he told one of the women this killed me. Told one of the women that he expected her to have a C section rather than a vaginal burst because that would impact the size of this child's brain. Now this is a guy that not only is destroying his company, but more importantly, he is a weirdo. He is a weirdo and the party of family values and moral majority. And he's got a harem and he wants to call his children a legion. We don't even know how many kids he has.
- [47:23]
Pablo Torre
That's my favorite part is that the quiet, the reporting can't even bracket the reasonable range of how many, how many kids he has progeny with who and with who.
- [47:34]
Mika Brzezinski
It's important that we point out this is reporting from the Wall Street Journal.
- [47:38]
Claire McCaskill
Wall Street Journal, yes.
- [47:39]
Mika Brzezinski
That we're not talking about.
- [47:41]
Pablo Torre
Well, it's such an important detail, Mika, that when we reference these stories, it's not just the people at this desk.
- [47:47]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah.
- [47:48]
Pablo Torre
It is data empirics. Conservative leaning. Traditionally, when it comes to the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal, like outlets, outlets that really are, to Clare's point is just profoundly weird.
- [48:01]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah. And disturbing. And how is he in on everybody's private information without any clearance? I still, I'll go back to that.
- [48:09]
Claire McCaskill
But he's paying people to make sure his information is private.
- [48:11]
Mika Brzezinski
Okay, that's just all doesn't seem good. John Hallman, thank you very much. Still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to turn to some medical news now where the CDC is now reporting a rise in autism in school age children. We're going to break down those new findings. Plus, Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren will join the conversation on the economy, how President Trump's tariffs policies are impacting her state and much more. MORNING JOE will be right back.
- [48:48]
Pablo Torre
These will never pay taxes. They'll never hold a job. They'll never play baseball. They'll never write a poem. They'll never go out on a date. Many of them will never use a toilet unassisted. We have to recognize we are doing this to our children and we need to put an end to it.
- [49:12]
Mika Brzezinski
That was HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Yesterday discussing a new CDC report detailing a rise in autism among children. According to the agency, about one in 31 kids were diagnosed with the disorder by their eighth birthday in 2022. That is nearly five times the figure in 2000. Joining us now, physician and senior public health contributor for Forbes, Dr. Omer Awan. Thank you very much for coming on the show. Let's start there. Why are we seeing this uptick sometimes is better reporting. But is there something else?
- [49:49]
H
Well, the diagnostic criteria for autism has brought in significantly and this has allowed for many more milder cases of autism to be classified under the umbrella term autism spectrum disorder. And the other thing about this mica is that physicians and pediatricians in particular are doing a much better job screening for autism. So you go to a pediatric office and you'll get good questions about exactly. Social interactions, learning. And this has allowed many more children to eventually be diagnosed with autism.
- [50:19]
Mika Brzezinski
So I want to get there's a lot of interesting health news to get to here with you of fluoride in the water and this new information about CT scans. So but let's move to fluoride, which we have in our water for a reason. RFK Jr says he plans to tell the CDC to stop recommending fluoride in drinking water. Will this happen and what will be the consequences?
- [50:42]
H
Well, it could absolutely happen because in Utah already they've banned fluoride in drinking water. And this mica could really have devastating consequences for public health and oral health in particular. You know, the American Dental association has said that fluoride in public water decreases tooth decay and cavities by 25% in both children and adults. And when we consider this, you know, this is really devastating because, remember, 70 million Americans lack dental insurance. This is going to cause a huge uptake in cavities. And this may cost the federal government.
- [51:11]
Mika Brzezinski
Why is he doing it?
- [51:13]
H
He believes that it could be harmful. And certainly at the concentrations that we see, it is not harmful. And decades of research has shown that at the concentration of 0.7 milligrams per liter, we don't see harm. But when it's at higher concentrations, like 2 milligrams, 4 milligrams, it can cause certain adverse effects like tooth discoloration, even bony abnormalities. But the research has shown that that doesn't occur at the concentration that currently exists.
- [51:38]
Mika Brzezinski
So this is in tap water, fluoride, public drinking. A lot of people drink bottled water in plastic bottles. Does that have fluoride in it?
- [51:46]
H
It does, yeah, it does. Certainly, you know, anything that has spring water, anything that comes from a public source has fluoride in it. And this has saved many people, probably yourself and myself, from getting cavities. So it's going to be interesting to see what happens next.
- [52:01]
Mika Brzezinski
All right. There's also been a study that is highlighting increased cancer risk from CT scans. Tell us what the findings were. And I mean, where do we go from here? A lot of people really depend on them.
- [52:15]
H
Absolutely. Well, I think the important thing to remember about this study is that it was based on statistical modeling and not real patient outcomes. And what the study did was it showed that, you know, CT scans, which have ballooned significantly, I mean, more than 90 million CT scans are done yearly, can result in 5% of all cancers in America. Now, remember, also, you know, CT scans are very important. I mean, they're critical in saving lives and detecting cancers earlier. They're critical in, you know, decreasing hospital stays for people that are in the hospital. And even, you know, they prevent, you know, invasive procedures from happening. And that has risks in itself. Yeah, but with that said, you know, there is a harm from radiation from CT scans, people. The more CT scans you have, the more radiation you're going to accumulate to leak, get. And then you can also have an increased risk of having cancer in the future.
- [53:08]
Mika Brzezinski
We got to go. But on a scale of 1 to 10, RFK as HHS secretary has you how concerned? 10 being the highest.
- [53:16]
H
10?
- [53:16]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah.
- [53:17]
John Heilman
10.
- [53:17]
Mika Brzezinski
Physician and senior public health contributor for Forbes, Dr. Omer Awan, thank you you very much for coming on this morning. Come back and auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it. So don't get stuck paying more for less coverage.
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Lisa Rubin
Switch to USAA auto insurance and you.
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Mika Brzezinski
Could start saving money in no time. Get a quote today, restrictions appreciate.