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Joe Scarborough
Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Monday, April 21st. We come on the air with breaking news. Pope Francis has passed away. The Vatican made the announcement early this morning, saying the 88 year old bishop of Rome returned to the house of the Father. Just yesterday, Francis made a surprise public appearance to bless thousands of people in St Peter's Square. He then drove through the piazza the Popemo. The Pope had been recovering from pneumonia. He was in the hospital for five weeks and was discharged less than a month ago. MSNBC's Chris Jansing has a look back at his life and legacy.
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Chris Jansing
Francis the pastor gathering excited children on the popemobile. Ever the warm and humble priest, he showed the world the day he was elected in 2013. Pacha mo insilencio, asking for prayers, dressed in a simple white cassock and an iron cross, not the traditional gold. No surprise from a man who is cardinal in Buenos Aires, lived in a small apartment, rode the subway and cooked his own meals.
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Mika Brzezinski
He could understand regular people, an ordinary person, an ordinary guy with an extraordinary job.
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Advertiser 2
And I think that the message was.
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Mika Brzezinski
I am one of you.
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Chris Jansing
But then surprising many as pope by bluntly taking on controversial causes, speaking out against the invasion of Ukraine, criticizing those who wouldn't wear masks during the pandemic, calling couples who had pets instead of children selfish. And as the first pope to address a joint session of Congress challenging the US to open its arms to refugees and abolish the death penalty. Even earlier, just months after his election, saying something revolutionary for a Catholic church leader, that the church must welcome the LGBTQ community.
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Mika Brzezinski
If a person is gay and seeks God and has goodwill, who am I to judge?
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Bishop Robert Barron
It's the pope saying something that no.
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Joe Scarborough
Other pope has said, not only in.
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Advertiser 2
Terms of the implications of that statement, but the very willingness to speak with such kind of spontaneity and ease on.
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Bishop Robert Barron
A grave matter to reporters at the back of a plane.
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Chris Jansing
By that December, Time magazine and the Advocate named Francis their Person of the Year. He made the COVID of Rolling Stone, Fortune's list of the most powerful people in the world. And he was the first as pontiff to have an Instagram account, gaining a million followers in the first 12 hours. He was born Jorge Mario Bergoglio in Buenos Aires, Argentina, the eldest of five children of Italian immigrants and as a young man, holding jobs as a bouncer, a janitor, and studying chemistry before entering the seminary. When Pope Benedict retired, Bergoglio was seen as a cardinal whose time had passed, and at 76, too old. But after five ballots, white smoke. The first Jesuit ever elected pope, the first from Latin America, and the first in nearly 600 years to follow a retirement pope, a story so dramatic, Hollywood couldn't resist.
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Kir Simmons
You have lifted a great burden from my shoulders.
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Advertiser 2
You're placed in every one of mine.
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Chris Jansing
Francis took over a church with 1.3 billion members, deeply divided over abortion, divorce, the ordination of women and married priests.
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Joe Scarborough
He came into the church at a time in which there was tremendous crisis.
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Advertiser 1
Both internally and externally in terms of its reputation, and he, in a sense, rebranded the Catholic Church. At a time when the church really needed a facelift, he provided it.
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Chris Jansing
He expanded roles for women in parishes and at the Vatican, but didn't budge on making them priests. Considered allowing married priests in remote areas, but ultimately didn't and reaffirmed many times church teaching against abortion. Conservative Catholics argue Francis prioritized pastoral openness and outreach at the expense of church doctrine.
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Advertiser 2
Since our main work in the church is preparing people and calling people to heaven, we need to be able to tell them, no. That's sinful conduct that will get you barred from going in the door.
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Chris Jansing
Other critics question whether his moves to toughen church laws dealing with sexual abuse by priests went far enough. But with his appointment of 21 new and diverse cardinals in 2022, Francis further shaped a church leadership tilting more toward the developing world and one that's more inclusive. Willing to at least talk about tough.
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Advertiser 1
Issues, Pope Francis understood that this was a world experiencing a lot of hurt.
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Richard Haass
And that hurt was of such a magnitude that it needs a divine healing.
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Chris Jansing
When failing health led to rumors of retirement, the pope, who once ministered to the poor in the slums of Buenos Aires, said simply, leave a legacy of good, not just goods, as he had done himself. Washing the feet of prison inmates, embracing the sick, and shining a light on the Catholic mission of love and mercy.
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Joe Scarborough
Wow. We have so much to talk about here in terms of the legacy of Pope Francis. Richard Haass, Jonathan Lemer, Joe and me starting off the show. And we're lining up guests as this breaking news unfolds. Before Our eyes. And Joe, Pope Francis, the things that stand out to me was first just living by example, the simplicity of his life, even when he could have the comforts around him of anything of his choosing, he chose to live so simply with a focus on the humanity of all people, even and especially the poor. Also his focus on inclusivity, his outreach to marginalized communities. Those words who am I to judge? Will echo throughout his legacy. Go ahead.
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Advertiser 2
Oh, yeah, and I was just going to say. And many on the hard right inside the church were shocked that this Pope would actually borrow from Jesus Christ and living that simple life. Borrow from Jesus Christ. And they were radical words when he said it. And it was like it was sounded like shot of a cannon. It just stunned everybody when the Pope said, who am I to judge now? Why in the world would he say something that radical? I don't know. Maybe it's because that's exactly what Jesus said to the woman at the well when religious leaders were going to stone her to death. And Jesus said as they dropped their rocks after saying, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, Jesus turned and said, where are your accusers now? Well, I also don't accuse you. Go and sin no more. And that's the thing, Micah. His legacy was remarkable in that Jesus reached out to those who were shunned by religious leaders in society. The lepers, the tax collectors, the sinners, like the woman at the well and with France's conservatives. Many conservatives inside the church hated him for being Christlike in that respect, just as the religious leaders of his day hated Jesus. But Francis was unbowed and being inclusive while following the word of the Gospels. Many on the left were also disappointed, as we heard in Chris's package, that often his words would not lead to changing church doctrine. But even that approach mirrored Jesus, who did save the woman at the well, said he held no judgment toward her and then said, go and sin no more. Pope Francis understood the importance of opening wide the doors of the church to everybody, to those who were judged, to those, to those that Jesus opened his faith to. And it really was Micah. It really was really radical for the time in which he lived. And now the big question is moving forward. Which direction does this church go back to? Does it go back to a legacy of doctrine and law over love and inclusivity? We will see how much of an impact Francis really did have on the long term shape and direction of this church.
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Joe Scarborough
Well, we're getting international reaction to Pope Francis passing. French President Emmanuel Macron said that he and his wife send their thoughts to all Catholics and to the grieving world. Israeli President Isaac Herzog stated that Francis was a man of deep faith and boundless compassion. He's dedicated his life to uplifting the poor and calling for peace in a troubled world. May his memory continue to inspire acts of kindness, unity and hope. President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen tweeted, may they find solace in the idea that Pope Francis legacy will continue to guide us toward a more just, peaceful and compassionate world. And King Charles wrote, my wife and I were most deeply saddened to learn of the death of Pope Francis. Through his hard work and care for both people and planet, he profoundly touched the lives of many. And here at home, Vice President J.D. vance, who just met with the Pope over the weekend, posted that he was happy to see him yesterday and that may God rest his soul. With the Pope's passing, here's a look at what comes next. Cardinals will decide the date and the funeral of the Pope's burial. Typically, the Funeral is held four to six days after the death in St. Peter's Square. Francis had said that unlike many predecessors, he would not be laid to rest in the crypt of St. Peter's Basilica, but in Rome's St. Mary Major Basilica. He also asked to be buried in a simple wooden casket. The conclave to elect a new pope starts in the Vatican Sistine Chapel between 15 and 20 days after the death. The cardinals who are confined to the Vatican for the duration of the conclave decide the exact day. There are currently 252 Catholic cardinals, 138 of whom are eligible to vote for the new pope. The others are over the age of 80, which means they cannot take part in the election, although they can join in the debate over who should be selected. The cardinals need a majority of at least 2/3, plus 1 to elect the new pope. So the voting can take several rounds spread over numerous days. And Joe, the process of course really laid out in terms of the high emotion and the high drama of it in this latest movie the Conclave.
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Advertiser 2
Right. And what you're likely to see again in those that are going to be voting for the next Pope, deciding who the next pope is going to be a more diverse group that are going cardinals that are going to be making that decision for for two reasons. One, because the church is growing much faster in the south than it is in and across the west, but also because it was Pope Francis who selected many new cardinals. From there with us, let's bring in by phone Bishop Robert Barron of the Diocese of Winona Rochester in Minnesota. He's also the founder of Word on Fire, a nonprofit Catholic media organization. Thank you so much for being with us. I'm curious, your thoughts this morning on, of course, the legacy of Pope Francis. Your thoughts on him as a man and where the church you love so much goes next.
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Bishop Robert Barron
Yeah. Good morning to everybody. Yeah. I was awakened very early with the news of the Pope's passing. And, you know, my first move was to come to my chapel and to pray for him. And then I just remembered, you know, the popes of my lifetime, he's the one I knew best personally. I was at the synod, the last two October's, you know, with him. I've met him on a number of occasions, and he was a very good man. And I enjoyed, you know, the brief conversations we had. And so I felt a personal loss. And I think all Catholics, when the Pope dies, it's your father's diet. And, you know, we call him Holy Father. We pray for him every single day. So that's my first reaction. Just kind of a personal sense of loss of a spiritual father. You know, his legacy has been a rich one, and as you know, many have been commenting poor church on behalf of the poor is one of his slogans. And he lived it. He didn't just talk about it, but he lived it. And all those gestures of simplicity. One of my enduring memories is 2015, when he came to the United States. I was there, and all the US bishops were gathered on the steps of St. Matthew's Cathedral. All these limousines are pulling up, you know, with world leaders and presidents and so on. And then it was almost comical. And this little teeny, tiny car comes up, and the Pope got out of it, and. But that was Francis. You know, he. He lived that. The journey to the margins. I think that was it. And to me, born very much of his Jesuit formation, he identified in this deep way, you know, emotionally as well as intellectually with the Lord. And that meant, you know, to reach out to those who've been forgotten and marginalized and bring them to the cent. I think that was the instinct of Francis time and time again. It was the interpretive key to his papacy and as you say, even the way he chose cardinals, choosing them from all over the world in places that normally would never have a cardinal. I remember at the conclave, running into this young Italian man, but he was serving in Mongolia, and the Pope named him Cardinal of Mongolia, even though there's, like, I think, 5,000 Catholics in the entire country. But that was typical of him. You know, he wanted to internationalize, of course, the College of Cardinals, but to, you know, include people who would never have had a cardinal.
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Richard Haass
Racial.
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Bishop Robert Barron
See, now that will have a very interesting implication, as you suggested, for the Conclave, because a lot of these men don't have a lot of experience with Rome and they don't know each other that well. I think that's a real change this time precisely because of the way Francis chose the cardinals. So we'll see how that will play out when the Conclave takes place.
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Advertiser 2
So. So, Bishop, if, if there were those that are, are not Christians, don't, don't follow the faith closely, not Catholics, they might, they might just read headlines and news stories and we've read news stories over the past several years about Francis saying things that, that upset those in the church, but things that seem to make basic sense for a religious leader. Talk about how Pope Francis, in reaching out to the poor, reaching out to the destitute, reaching out to migrants, reaching out to those who were shunned by the church. So closely parallels throughout the New Testament, throughout the Gospels, what Jesus Christ did, whether it was telling Zacchaeus to come down from the tree, whether it was what he did with the woman at the well, whether it was telling people when they mocked and ridiculed Jesus for who he was having dinner with. Talk about how France is much or more than any pope of our lifetime actually followed that lesson of Jesus, the importance of being inclusive while not adopting an I'm okay, you're okay approach, while also staying tough, just like, again, just like Jesus at the well said, well, I don't judge you either. Now go and sin no more.
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Bishop Robert Barron
Right. And that combination is very important because to your first point, he was formed in this Jesuit tradition which encourages people to really move into the scene if you're looking at a biblical story, to feel how people felt, to identify with that moment. So like the woman at the well, or like Zacchaeus or the man born blind. And I think he was so shaped by that that it shaped his thinking and his, his behavior and right. Jesus. Open table fellowship. Saints and sinners, welcome the insiders and the outsiders. A special affection for the tax collectors, the prostitutes. I mean, all of that, I think he deeply felt. But as you're also correctly saying, and we can sort of caricature Francis as just, you know, I'm Mr. Friendly and anything goes by no means. I mean, he was very strong opponent of abortion. He was homosexual acts even as he reached out with great generosity toward Gay people. He didn't change the church's moral teaching in any way. I think what he embodied was this great attitude of outreach, of inclusivity, of invitation, of the offer of mercy. Now, there is maybe a key term to understand him. Mercy, Misericordia. He loved that word. Well, the mercy of Jesus is just that, to go out to those. But part of mercy is to say, well, now sin no more, you know, now find the. Find the right path. So he did both of those things and that was all. You're quite right. In deep imitation of Jesus.
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Advertiser 2
And you know, Mika, that is, as there are those that are grappling with his legacy, you will hear most likely criticism from people on the far right and some criticism on the left who wanted him to change 2000 years of doctrine. Instead of taking a more incremental approach, instead of taking a more inclusive approach, like so many great leaders, you will have people on both sides saying, well, he didn't go enough in our direction, or he didn't go enough in the other direction. But for France is again even saying something like, who am I to judge? Very radical at the time, but very consistent with the teachings of Jesus Christ over the past 2,000 years.
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Joe Scarborough
Well, he lived the example of Jesus and with that he was able to have that outreach to marginalized communities, to people who felt left out, to people who were down and out, to people who were not included in society. And he was able to do that within the teachings, as you said, Joe, of Jesus and Jonathan Lemire. He also was able to make some very strong messages about world events. I'm thinking, particularly Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
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Advertiser 1
Yeah, so many Catholics, myself included, were so grateful that he made one last Easter. He had been sick for so long.
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Joe Scarborough
Yes.
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Advertiser 1
And now I think in some ways a fitting time of his passing here on Easter Monday. But in his final public remarks yesterday, he spoke about the need for ceasefire in Gaza. He has repeatedly talked about the need to break an end to the war in Ukraine and condemned Russia's invasion there. And certainly as just as so well said, you know, the Pope, a real man of the people. He stayed in touch with who he was. He still rooted for his boyhood soccer team from Argentina. He was heartened when Argentina won the World cup just a couple of years ago. And those gestures of, you know, I remember when he visited New York in 2015 and the FDR was shut for the papal motorcade. And it was the longest motorcade I've ever seen. And I've, you know, covered presidents and other world leaders. And yet his vehicle was just this little in the middle of this tiny little car and he was leaning out the window and waving to everyone who had gathered alongside. You know, and even as his health started to decline last couple years, he still would go to the prison and wash feet, other traditions there. And as he moved the church in a more inclusive tone and rhetoric, to be sure. And I'm also remembering today his haunting, his prayers during the first days of the COVID pandemic, which of course hit Italy so hard there in March of 2020, preaching to a empty St. Peter's Square. Mika. But you're right, he was both a man of the people, but also a statesman on issues like world peace, climate change and the like. And that will be, Richard, a big part of his, of his legacy.
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Mika Brzezinski
It will be.
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Richard Haass
But the sadness of the time, I thought Jonathan was in some ways he was a man slightly out of touch with the times. He was a man of peace at a time of great violence in the Middle east, in Europe, which he was not in a position to stop. He was a man of simplicity and modesty at a time of extraordinary wealth and economic inequality. He was a man of inclusiveness when the most dominant political issue in a lot of the west was opposition to immigration. So I think to me, as a non Catholic, watching him, there was a decency about the man, a gentleness about the man. But in some ways I was struck by the contrast between him and his times. He didn't want waiver. He was who he was. But in many cases, I thought his ability to influence his times. This is not a criticism, just an observation. He seemed to almost represent the kind of almost niceness for a decency for times which had an edge and a harshness to them.
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Joe Scarborough
Well, moments ago, as we mentioned Ukraine here, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky just posted this. Millions of people around the world are mourning the tragic news of Pope Francis passing. His life was devoted to God, to people and to the church. He knew how to give hope, ease suffering through prayer and foster unity. He prayed for peace in Ukraine and for Ukrainians. We grieve together with Catholics and all Christians who look to the Pope Francis for spiritual support, eternal memory. Let's bring in NBC News chief international correspondent Kir Simmons, live from Dubai. Kir, tell us more about reaction from around the world.
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Kir Simmons
Well, the reaction is unanimous. And you read then the statement from President Zelenskyy of Ukraine. Mika, this was a pope of, as you've been saying, of mercy and compassion, but also of enormous sacrifice, that message of peace for Ukraine and Gaza, that message he sent just yesterday. So hours before his passing. And I was thinking, Mika, about being there at the Vatican in 2013 when he was chosen for the papacy, and how we marveled at the way that he immediately rejected kind of trinkets and baubles and instead made it clear through his actions that he was a man of the people. And incredible, isn't it, that even right until the final hours, he was doing the same thing. So once again appearing in St. Peter's Square and again giving out, sending that message to Ukraine and to Gaza, even while he could not know, we did not know that that was his final day of work. Hours were spent giving, giving to people and trying to send the message that he has been trying to send through his entire papacy. And it hasn't been easy. The controversy has been there and not simply in the ways you might suspect. So controversy from Ukraine, for example, when he had a Russian woman and a Ukrainian woman carry the cross together early on, close to the time of Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine, that caused a good deal of backlash in Ukraine because inevitably the emotions are so high. But what the Pope did then and did and has continued to do was to try to hold out that message of compassion for everyone, for all, no matter what side you're on. And that really is the role of a pope, you know, a modern pope, you would think, as you mentioned, the question now, who will take his place? We haven't had the conclave, hasn't been announced even yet. You know, we have to have the plans for the funeral, all of those things. And there will be some back and forth, some pressure within the politics of the Catholic Church over what kind of pope should come next, as Joe was mentioning, and whether it should be someone to follow the traditions of Pope Francis or to take the church in a different direction. But there will be many, many who will be hoping that his legacy is not just a legacy, but continues. And many from different places. The king, the King of England, King Charles, for example, meeting with the Pope just in recent weeks, again, very close to his passing. You mentioned the vice president, J.D. rence, meeting with the Pope just in recent days. Again, what an example by a man who gave his, gave his life to the church and the last more than a decade of his life to the papacy.
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Advertiser 2
All right, NBC's Keir Simmons, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate that. You know, I was hearing Richard so right that this pope seemed to be at times a man out of time, a man so separated from the events of the world. I actually, bishop think that's actually a beautiful legacy for him. In a time of war, he offered peace. In a time of hate, he offered love. It reminded me of Martin Luther King's famous quote that darkness cannot drive out darkness, only light can do that. And hate cannot drive out hate, only love can do that. And how extraordinary that the Pope and Vatican City stood apart from the world in that respect. Right.
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Bishop Robert Barron
And that's an important point to make, that the Pope, you know, is standing for the Lord Jesus and standing for this great gospel truth. And the culture sometimes is for that, sometimes is against it. It's like the waves breaking against the rock. And the church has to stand for the Lord. And sometimes we'll get applause for that, sometimes we'll get brick bags for that. And that's the way it goes. I'm glad you mentioned King. Remember when the Pope was in America and he cited the four great Americans and one of them was Martin Luther King. And I think he was very much in King's spirit that the gospel, when properly presented, does have a world changing impact. That's very much his perspective. I think he, like, like all the great Popes, I mean, stood for the Lord Jesus Christ in the midst of this ever changing and ambiguous culture. But he had that serene confidence in the Lord and serene confidence in the power of the gospel ship.
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Joe Scarborough
Robert Barron, thank you so much for joining us early this morning on this breaking news. And still ahead on MORNING joe. We'll continue to follow the breaking news throughout the morning, including a look at how Pope Francis used his voice to intervene in multiple global conflicts. We're also following the reported turmoil at the Pentagon, where Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is once again facing controversy over information he reportedly shared in a private signal chat. This time the group included his wife and brother. We'll get to that next on Morning Joe. We are back in 90 seconds.
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- [31:06]
Joe Scarborough
We continue to follow the breaking news that are the Vatican this morning. Pope Francis, the first Latin American pontiff in history, has passed away at waking up to this very sad news this morning. As the leader of the Catholic Church, Pope Francis has used his voice to intervene in multiple global conflicts. NBC's Anne Thompson brings us his legacy of diplomacy.
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I
Diplomacy as practiced by popes is a uniquely personal endeavor, and Pope Francis made his story a pontiff from, as he called it, the end of the earth, the cornerstone of Vatican foreign policy. Nowhere was this more apparent than the issue of migration, a topic he addressed in multiple countries. In 2016, he traveled to Ciudad Juarez on the U S Mexico border to call for compassion and aid, praying for asylum seekers who died just yards from the United States, saying those who sought to build only walls and not bridges were not Christian.
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Advertiser 1
He has this in his gut.
- [32:24]
Advertiser 2
He is a product of immigration, his Italian forebears having gone to Argentina because they were poor, they didn't have enough to eat.
- [32:33]
Advertiser 1
It's as simple as that.
- [32:35]
Advertiser 2
So he has immigration in his blood, in his DNA.
- [32:39]
I
What was his greatest asset on the world stage?
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Advertiser 2
I think sincerity.
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Advertiser 1
He said what he felt and what.
- [32:47]
Advertiser 2
He believed without taking too much consideration into the repercussions that it may or may not have on the political scale.
- [32:56]
I
On the political scene, France has also focused his attention on conflicts and issues the world often preferred to ignore. Becoming the first pope to travel to an active combat zone, the Central African Republic's brutal civil war. Francis did not shy away from the dramatic gesture. At a meeting of rival South Sudanese leaders, he kissed their feet, imploring them to respect their ceasefire agreement. Reaching across religious divisions was a priority in the later years, years of Francis papacy meeting in 2021 in Iraq with Shiite leader Ayatollah Ali al Sistani. While visiting the city of Ur, the birthplace of the prophet Abraham, he forcefully denounced extremism. We believers cannot be silent when terrorism abuses religion, he said no conflicts seem beyond help for Francis, not even that between Israel and Palestine. In 2014, visiting the separation Wall, a symbol of Israeli oppression to the Palestinians. Later inviting then Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to the Vatican to pray together. The October 7 terror attacks by Hamas against Israel and the resulting war in Gaza saw the Pope again trying to play a meaningful role to end the conflict, meeting with families of Israelis held hostage by Hamas and those of Palestinians killed in the bombing. It's a balancing act.
- [34:32]
Richard Haass
For Pope Francis, it is.
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Advertiser 1
But nobody wants any innocent civilians killed, whether they're Palestinian or whether they're Israeli.
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Advertiser 2
Pope Francis is about the faith of.
- [34:45]
Advertiser 1
Life and trying to help everyone.
- [34:47]
I
But that balancing act came with a price. After Russia invaded Ukraine, Francis was dogged by accusations that he failed to sufficiently condemn Russia's actions in general and Vladimir Putin in particular, despite meeting with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky and referring to Ukraine as a martyred nation.
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Advertiser 1
He's not a diplomat.
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Richard Haass
He's a moral authority. And those two things, the diplomacy and the moral authority, can sometimes get him in trouble.
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I
And In China, a 2018 agreement to allow the Chinese Communist Party to have a say in who can be appointed bishop for the country's beleaguered Catholic minority was deeply unpopular.
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Richard Haass
It seems to have been one of abandoning faithful Catholics in China in order to make deals with the People's Republic of China.
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I
Pope Francis sought to hold the Vatican out as a place to negotiate peace. But like many who tried, he too found peace to be confoundingly elusive.
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Advertiser 2
Confoundingly elusive. And Jonathan Lemire also doing things that, again, may have been disappointing to some followers in his church. But whether it was going to China, whether it was, you know, whatever he was doing, where he didn't get the immediate results that people. People had expected are even seeming to compromise. Reminds me so much of when I was younger, Billy Graham going to the Soviet Union. And going to the Soviet Union for several reasons. You know, first of all, understanding there were souls there to be reached, but also hoping to have Christians treated more humanely there. It's something that we saw Pope Francis do time and time again when he would go countries and speak out against terrorism. He would always talk about the protection of the Christian minorities in those countries and the need to protect them. Same with China.
- [36:59]
Advertiser 1
Yeah, that was a through line throughout his world travels, of which there were many. He was a real globetrotting pontiff up until the very end, of course, when his health started to slip. But he would talk about those Christian minorities. He would just talk about the need for peace and protecting children and migrants as an issue. As we talked earlier in the show, in fact, his first trip outside of Rome was to an island off the coast of Italy that had seen a lot of migrants come there. He talked about the importance of offering them protection. He once flew to Greece in 2016 and brought back with him 12 Syrian migrants aboard the papal planes back to Rome. This is, you know, he is someone who was migrants. It was climate change, it was the need for peace. These were sort of his global thoughts, his foreign policy, if you will. Though, of course, as just noted, more of a moral leader than a diplomat. Richard Haass, you know, certainly. And then, and then that's how he approached the church as well. Where, yes, there were some progressive Catholics who wish he would have gone even further on certain things, but 2000 years of tradition in history and doctrine, and he did indeed move the church in terms of inclusivity, in terms of its rhetoric with LGBTQ communities and the like. It is going to be a remarkable legacy here, a tonal shift from his predecessor, Pope Benedict, that is clear.
- [38:21]
Richard Haass
You know, what's interesting to me is when I look at him is I see him not just as a moral authority, as someone who does want to influence the world, but also as the leader of an institution. And that's what you're getting at. And the question is, what comes next? His legacy so much depend upon successors. It's the chance to lock them in, to continue. He made his appointments, for example, for cardinals, and then his successor will make dozens of more appointments for cardinals, and that'll influence the trajectory and the politics. Because at the end of the day, the church is also a political institution which has all sorts of trade offs to be made in terms of policies, in terms of directions and so forth. So it's almost, you know, everyone's going to be spending the next few days, for obvious reasons, talking about politics, demand talking about the legacy. But sometimes the legacy is up for grabs. I actually think whenever you're succeeded, so much depends upon the choice whether that person decides to continue or reverse.
- [39:12]
Advertiser 1
Yeah. And because certainly Vatican watchers have long speculated what could come next. Whether it's the same sort of more progressive mode or perhaps more reaction back to the center.
- [39:21]
Joe Scarborough
Absolutely.
- [39:22]
Kir Simmons
Yeah.
- [39:23]
Advertiser 2
No doubt about it, Mika. And we're going to be hearing over the next couple of days as people talk, talk about his legacy, going to hear about his championing of migrants, and there will obviously be many on the right who will Be critical of that. I will say again, just like so many other things we've talked about this morning, his view on migrants was anchored deep in the Gospels and again with just for those who don't know. So when you hear the debates in the coming days, you can understand where Francis was anchored on this issue. It wasn't some, you know, Marxist teaching from, you know, from, you know, his early days. It was Jesus Christ. Jesus was asked, who is my neighbor? And that's when Jesus told the parable of the good Samaritan. A man was beaten on a road. You had priests walk past doing nothing. You had others walking past doing nothing. But it was a Samaritan, a foreigner, a man that, that should have been loathed and should have loathed the man who was beaten up. It was that Samaritan who stopped to take care of the man, put him up, give the innkeeper money to nurse him back to health. And Jesus said, that man, that foreigner, that despised Samaritan, that is your neighbor. And so, I mean, I suppose there will be some who, I mean, maybe they're offended by the teachings of Jesus Christ. So maybe they'll want to attack Francis for taking that same view as Jesus Christ. But again, so many of these things that the hard right inside the church have suggested is left wing Marxist liberation ideology. No, it's actually, it's the teachings of Jesus Christ over 2000 years old.
- [41:25]
Joe Scarborough
And if you're just joining us, we're covering the breaking news of Pope Francis passing. Pope Francis has died at the age of 88. And Joe, to your point, even in death, the pope following the teachings of Jesus, take a look at his choices for how he wants to be laid to rest for his funeral proceedings, where he chooses to be laid to rest. And of course, what comes next in the process of choosing a new pope. As we take in this news, very fresh early this morning of the passing of Pope Francis just hours after Easter Sunday. In other news this morning, Defense Secretary Pete Hegsett reportedly used his personal phone to disclose information about US Military operations in Yemen. This is a different group chat situation. This is another signal group chat where he shared sensitive information. Two sources with knowledge of the matter tell NBC News 13 people were in the chat, including Hexa wife and brother. The sources say Hegseth sent the messages after an aide warned him to not share sensitive information on signal. Okay. This comes a month after the editor in chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, revealed the Trump administration accidentally added him to a signal group chat about Yemen attack plans, national security adviser Mike Waltz has taken responsibility for creating that message chain. According to the New York Times, the other group chat was started by Hegseth. The secretary shared essentially the same information in both groups, including the flight schedules for the military jets that targeted the Houthis.
- [43:21]
Kir Simmons
Oh my gosh.
- [43:21]
Joe Scarborough
The information was reportedly sent to both chats at roughly the same time. What's going on here? Four people familiar with the chat tell the New York Times that Hegseth's chat was named Defense Team Huddle and it did not include any other cabinet level officials. It was initially created as a forum for discussing routine administrative or scheduling information, sources tell the paper. Hegseth did not usually discuss sensitive military operations. Hegseth's chat included his wife, who is a former Fox News producer and not a Defense Department employee. His brother and personal lawyer were also in the chat. They both have jobs in the Pentagon, but it's not known why they would need to know anything about attack plans in Yemen. In a statement, the chief Pentagon spokesperson denied any classified information was shared in either of the Signal chats. Bring in one of the reporters of that piece, New York Times reporter Greg Jaffe. Also with us, retired U.S. army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. His military career spans more than three decades of service, including as the commanding General of the US Army Europe and the 7th Army. So we'll get to that in a moment. But first, Mr. Jaffe, more on your reporting. I almost felt like we were reporting on the first Signal scandal. It seems so similar. Tell us more about who he included in this chat and why. Perhaps this is the same thing happening all over again.
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Advertiser 1
Wherever you're listening and follow subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts to listen ad free. Yes, the chat. Yeah, the chat, as you noted, included his wife, his brother, his personal attorney, and most of his inner circle, which has been in a pretty. Has been in a state of tumult these last couple of weeks. And I think it's worth noting it's a very inexperienced inner circle and he's a very inexperienced secretary. So it's a group of people who hadn't been used to operating at this level of government. And I think that's the other kind of key point here. He's, he doesn't have a lot of experience at senior officials, and he's surrounding himself with people who also kind of.
- [47:02]
Advertiser 2
Lack experience, you know. You know, General, I was just a little congressman, one of 435 services committee. We would get information and we understood. We didn't tell a soul. It didn't tell a soul. Nobody. Not even staff members. Not family. Certainly not family members. I, I'm just curious. You've operated actually on such a higher level where the lives of our men and women in uniform were at risk if information got out. I just, I mean, even on my small level, this is just really, this is so hard to comprehend. I wonder how shocking it must be for you who understands this sort of recklessness could lead to lost American lives.
- [47:58]
Mika Brzezinski
It is pretty shocking, Joe, what I'll say to you. Yes, I've been given information from confidential all the way up to its top secret code word. And the rules are when individuals are given access to national security information, intelligence, there are two ironclad standards. You protect classified, critical and sensitive information, and you only share it with those who have a clearance and with a legitimate need to know. And you certainly don't share it with your wife, your family members, or those you're trying to impress. Doing anything else betrays trust, and it violates the standards that all military personnel and most government officials learn. When someone with access to sensitive information passes it to a favored journalist, a friendly voice in the media, a spouse or a family member, someone without clearance, without a key role in the operations, and without a need to know, that's not patriotism. That's performance. Politics. Politics. It's reckless and it's dangerous. It risks operations, it endangers lives, and it weakens US Credibility around the world. It also sends the key message that keeping our nation secure is optional. And the people that are doing this truly, fully don't understand what our enemies can collect from a resource like a signals app on a private phone. It's just amazing to me. It's infuriating. And I think most people who have clearances understand the same thing.
- [49:30]
Advertiser 2
Well, and General, here we're starting with the semantics game again with the initial. The initial statements from the DoD that this was not classified information. Have you ever known the scheduling of an operation, when fighter jets are going to be taking off, when they're going to be making their strikes? Have you ever known that in all of your years of not being the most highly classified information that a SECDEF would hold?
- [50:01]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, they're playing word games with this, Joe. It may not have a classification stamp on the top that says secret or top secret or classified, but it's critical and sensitive information. And that falls under the category of the Department of Defense regulation. You don't have to have a stamp on the top of a piece of paper to understand that anything like this could fall into the hands of our enemies or even forces on the ground. And they can put pieces of a puzzle together. That's what intelligence folks do. You know, it's fascinating to me. We have such tremendous people in our intelligence communities and all of the agencies, from the military agencies all the way up to the CIA, and it's fascinating to me that every single one of them would tell you that our enemies can take these pieces of a puzzle, put them together, and determine things like just the way people talk, the way they act. When I was in Europe or when I was in many jobs, we used to give commanders. You know, one of my intelligence folks would give me a black book before I went to have an engagement with a foreign dignitary or a foreign army. It was collections on those individuals to give me a better advantage. So we can talk about the art of the deal, but when you're talking about the art of engagement, it gives you an advantage when you have intelligence about what people are doing, about their personal habits, about their ego and their hubris. And I gotta tell you, the information on these chats that are being shown by Jeff Goldberg and others are just staggering. It's jaw dropping to me that anybody can say that's not important information that our enemies can gain a lot from.
- [51:50]
Joe Scarborough
So to broaden this out a little bit. Jonathan LeMere, I know you're going to go to Greg on his reporting, but to add to this, the Secretary of Defense, his wife and brother, I believe there's been reporting that they have been included on some meetings as well. So the question is what is their role?
- [52:10]
Advertiser 1
Yeah, there's been questions about just the why the setup at the Pentagon surrounding Secretary of Defense who appears to be very isolated in the building. His wife is there, his brother is there, other close confidants nearby at all times. Why there's been eyebrows raised about how his wife has been in very sensitive meetings with foreign, with foreign governments. We should note though, the Pentagon put out a statement about this. We haven't heard from the Secretary of Defense himself except a Twitter reply to the Democrats. Like the political organization, he attacked them simply saying your agenda is illegals and dei. That's his comment. He made a political swipe at the Democratic Party as opposed to addressing the matter at hand. That's all we've heard from the Secretary of Defense. So Greg, terrific reporting. Tell us more. Also about this moment at the Pentagon where there's been a wave of high profile resignations. People working with the secretary, one of whom wrote an op ed for Politico last night saying that the building is in chaos, suggesting that President Trump push out the Secretary of Defense. We haven't heard anything from the president just yet. But talk to us about this moment there at dod. Yeah, it's really unlike anything I've seen in the kind of 20 years that I've been following the building. To have the secretary's inner circle kind of turn on each other this way. That's really, really unprecedented. And as far as I can tell, the infighting is not really over policy or anything like that. It's just kind of, I think, who has the secretary's ear, how meetings should be run. It's just a really, really chaotic environment. And you get the sense that there's just a lack of process around the secretary in terms of just how to.
- [53:46]
Richard Haass
Run the office on a day to day basis.
- [53:48]
Advertiser 1
Just basic function is not happening.
- [53:52]
Richard Haass
This doesn't happen in the without a context. You had a purge of the chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff, any number of other four stars. Now you've had this mark. I was really curious. Two things come to mind. One is what is morale like now you've got obviously civilian primacy, but now you have a civilian running the Pentagon who's violating rules that if any of the people under his command did, they would be stripped of rank. And they'd be out of their jobs or worse. So to what extent does this matter in a sense, do you actually think readiness is being affected by this, that recruitment's being affected by this discipline? What is your sense of. Because what's going on is so unprecedented and so wrong, what do you see as the consequences?
- [54:40]
Mika Brzezinski
Well, a couple of things. First of all, it's certainly going to affect our alliances because when you see this kind of leakage and just a lack of responsibility and a lack of adherence to standards on what you share or don't share with intelligence, alliances are going to stop sharing thing with us, things with us. They have already done that. In terms of the morale, I can't comment on that because I'm not in the Pentagon, but I have talked to others in the force who are in the operational army and they're shaking their head. They're saying, you know, this is ridiculous. Everyone should know this. Why is this individual doing these kind of things? And most, even the younger members of our military understand the implications of these kind of things being leaked. They are repeatedly told, don't use your personal cell phone when you're in a government building. Don't pass information that could be sensitive on your personal cell phone. The other thing that I'd comment that, you know, the military or the government pays a lot of money for encrypted devices and things that can pass these, this kind of information from supernet computers to the kinds of cell phones that are encrypted. And even though, you know, Signals app is allegedly encrypted, I will tell you for sure because I've seen it. Any government in the world can break into that encryption and find out information from it. So people who think they're smart and say, hey, I'm just going to use signals and it'll be encrypted and it'll disappear in a week. That's great. But it can still be hacked by government sources. And then finally, we even have video teleconference capabilities and you have a signal team with each one of these important people who are carrying around all this gear specifically so they can communicate. So why anyone would rely on this kind of equipment to pass sensitive information and especially pass it to other people who might be have their phones hacked too. There's two sides of these kinds of communications. The sender, who could have their phone, their personal phone hacked, hacked, and the receiver, who could also have their phone hacked. And when you're talking about a lot of people in the Pentagon that have interim security clearances, this is a completely dangerous thing. But finally, to answer your question, there's turmoil in the force.
- [57:08]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. And you, General, just to end here on some of the words you said there, everyone should know this. Everyone does know this. Given especially how widely covered the Signal chat scandal. The first one was retired U.S. army Lt. Gen. Mark Herdling and reporter for the New York Times, Greg Jaffe. Thank you both. Thank you, Greg, for your reporting. And Richard, I wonder what the consequences of this is, especially given that the president himself conceded this was not okay by, I believe, saying his national security adviser had learned a lesson, which is as close as, I think as it is to conceding that maybe this was a bad idea. To be talking about sensitive plans on.
- [57:53]
Richard Haass
Signal like it reinforces the reality, Mika, that we have someone who's secretary of defense, who ought not to be secretary of defense. And what General Hertling just said, last phrase, turmoil in the force. This is really a corrosive thing. But Jonathan would know better than anybody, this is a president who's reluctant to make changes with his highest level and particularly someone like Pete Hegseth who's so popular with his political base. I, for one, would be surprised if changes that should happen will happen.
- [58:19]
Joe Scarborough
Joe.
- [58:20]
Kir Simmons
Yeah.
- [58:20]
Advertiser 2
You know, Jonathan O'Mear, the White House certainly understood and reporting was that the president also understood that the Signal, the first signal, so called signal gate controversy, really did, you know, impact the White House. It was, it was seen as very negative inside the White House. Now, now this on top of the first and the idea that it wasn't because somebody accidentally added Jeffrey Goldberg to the list, but you have the secretary of defense deliberately sending just the most sensitive information about battle plans over a commercial app that can be hacked. I mean, my God, I am curious to see what the president, those around him think about this.
- [59:08]
Advertiser 1
Yes, the first single gate really was a blow. They really knocked them off stride and beginning a bit of a losing streak for this White House, which we've seen with the tariffs and other issues since. We'll have to see how the president responds. This, as noted, we reported, I reported at the time, it has not changed to this point. The president with a quote, no scalps, not my words, senior advisers, words, policy here that they don't want to force someone out to give the media a victory. This is the White House's thinking here that President Trump regrets in his first term how he pushed out national security Adviser Flynn, others early on. He wants to dig in his heels and fight. And we should also just note that Secretary Hegseth is very popular in the MAGA base. The fight to get him confirmed reminded so many of the Mika the fight to get justice Kavanaugh concerned confirmed. He's very popular among Fox News viewers and the like. We'll have to see what happens though, when the President is asked about this today. The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most.
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