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Morning Joe
Morning Joe 4/22/25
00:52:53
Pete Hegseth shared information ahead of Yemen strikes in a Signal chat with wife and brother
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- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
You know we love a good debate, right? Digging deep on the issues.
- [00:04]
Mika Brzezinski
It's kind of our thing.
- [00:06]
Joe Scarborough
But here's something that shouldn't need in depth analysis.
- [00:09]
Mika Brzezinski
No matter what's happening in our country.
- [00:11]
Joe Scarborough
People still need health care.
- [00:12]
Courtney Kubi
That should be obvious, right?
- [00:14]
Mika Brzezinski
That's why Planned Parenthood health centers are here to provide birth control, cancer screenings, abortion and more without judgment.
- [00:20]
Joe Scarborough
But they can't do it alone.
- [00:21]
Mika Brzezinski
If you believe everyone deserves access to.
- [00:24]
Joe Scarborough
Care, donate now@plannedparenthood.org defend because healthcare shouldn't be up for debate.
- [00:31]
Willie Geist
Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out indecision, overthinking, second guessing every choice you make in plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out beige on beige on beige in knowing what to do, when to do it and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today.
- [01:00]
Joe Scarborough
Do you remain confident? Oh, total President Trump. Why? Why do you even ask a question like that? We have recruitments. That's at an all time high. The spirit in the armed forces is fantastic. Great confidence.
- [01:14]
Willie Geist
All right. President once again publicly supporting Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth following yet another signal chat scandal. It comes amid a report the White House is already looking for his replace. Meanwhile, the president continues to criticize Federal Fed Reserve Chair Jerome Powell demanding interest rates to be lowered. CNBC's Dom Chu will join us with insight on how those comments are impacting the markets this morning. Also ahead, we'll have President Trump's response to the Supreme Court blocking deportations through the Alien Enemies Act. We'll also provide some context on due process for migrants. And we'll bring you the latest out of Vatican City on the funeral services for Pope Francis.
- [02:03]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, so much to get to. And it's going to be interesting. We were talking about due process, what happened under the Obama administration. Right. And under the Obama administration, obviously there were a lot of deportees without full, full due process under the courts. ACLU complained about that back in 2014. They weren't trying to use the Aliens Enemies act. So. But we will provide some context there. Also, there's a line that Mika just said right there, reports that they're already looking for Hegseth's replacement. I mean, we've heard time and again that maybe they're looking at Desantis. They were looking at Desantis from time to time. I don't know if that's the case. I'm sure the White House will deny it. But I'm just curious what your Reporting shows because obviously you know, the President, President as you have reported and others reported, not happy that he thought he had a two month winning streak. That, that Hegseth sloppiness sort of snapped. They this, this signal gate deal broke through with the White House and Donald Trump wasn't happy the first time. Sure. He wasn't happy yesterday that he's sending this to his wife and brother and lawyer.
- [03:20]
Jonathan O'Meara
Yeah, they felt like they were on a two month run when then the first signal gate snafu occurred. They've been teetering a bit because of the fallout to the president's tariff policies. And as I reported this morning in the last week the White House was sort of giving explicit instructions to talk about other issues, namely immigration, namely deportations. They think just what they think. They think that's a winner. And now derailed again by this latest signal gate issue. And yes, the president publicly, we already played some comments publicly supporting Hegseth, the White House vociferously publicly pushing back against the idea that Hegseth could be ousted soon. But as I've reported others, there has been some conversations, more on the outer edges of the Trump orbit about starting to cast about for names who could fill in words.
- [04:05]
Joe Scarborough
These are just distractions that the White House just doesn't need, that the DoD just doesn't need. It's just. And again signal again it's one thing when you're trying to point to Mike Waltz for adding somebody, but when he has his own sort of side bro council with wife saying hey, you know, it's like, it's like that scene where Martin Sheen at the end of of the dead zone in the movie goes, gentlemen, the missiles are flying. I mean he starts his with operations are underway. No, no, no. I mean everybody in the military knows, including if you go back and see what Hegseth said about Hillary Clinton and classified documentations this he would be the first person on TV going crazy against any Democrat if they had done the same thing.
- [05:01]
Jonathan O'Meara
Yeah, and this is single chat that he started. His wife's in it, his brother's in it, his personal attorney is in it, you know, sharing details. Some of them employed by the DoD, but not in roles that would require them to know the intricacies of strikes against the Houthis. His, his wife of course has no DOD role at all. But this comes also at a time where some of his most senior advisors were ousted from the Pentagon, some of them escorted from the building as part of an ongoing and somewhat mysterious classified leak information probe. So there's Just a lot of questions in the White House about just the chaos right now at the Pentagon.
- [05:35]
Joe Scarborough
Willie, obviously, feel free to tug on whatever you want to talk about, but this is going to be a hard turn from the Pentagon to Nashville. Cats. You were in Nashville, saw some pictures that looked amazing.
- [05:50]
David Graham
Oh, yeah, Yeah, I was in Nashville last week for a Michael J. Fox foundation event called A Country Thing. Chris Stapleton played Little Big Town, played Kimberly Schlapman of Little Big Town's mother has Parkinson's. So she and I have connected on that. My dad has Parkinson's as well. So it was it's always good to be in Nashville, but for an event like that, to raise that kind of money, Michael was there. He made the trip down to Nashville. And of the cool moments of the night, there were many, the coolest was Stapleton for his last song, said, I've never played this on stage, but let's try it breaks into Johnny B. Goode. Marty McFly jumps up in his box and starts dancing. It was like it was chills.
- [06:28]
Joe Scarborough
It was incredible.
- [06:30]
David Graham
It turns out Stapleton, even though he'd never played it before, was pretty good at playing Johnny B. Goode. He had that in his arsenal. So, yeah, it was a great trip for a great cause. But as we talk about this story with the Hegseth Signal chat, the second one now, let's bring in NBC News senior national security correspondent who Courtney Kubi. Courtney, good morning. What's the latest? The details, first of all, of what Hegseth actually did here, who he included in this group, what he shared, and is there pressure, if not from the president, but internally at the Pentagon, for something to change here?
- [07:05]
Courtney Kubi
Yeah, I mean, I have to say, first off, it's really difficult to follow a conversation where you talk about Marty McFly and then 2.0. But so, yeah, the look, the reality is, as we have, as Jonathan was mentioning here, this is a whole nother story from what we all were talking about several weeks ago with the chat that was that was reported on by the Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg. He was mistakenly added to why this is so much more important right now and why this is really turning a lot more heads even than the first Signal chat is the fact that Secretary Hegseth himself created this chat and as you mentioned, he added some of his family members into it. The reality is there is no reason that any of these individuals who have been identified, his wife, his brother, his attorney, his personal attorney, would have any need to know about strikes and attack plans against the Houthi Rebels. Candidly, there are people in the Pentagon who are saying, look, it just looks like he was bragging about what they were doing. And it came with the possibility of endangering the lives of the men and women who are flying those manned aircraft into a dangerous environment, an area that the Houthis have shown they can contest. They can contest the airspace. And there were men and women, hundreds of them, on ships afloat, not far in the initial salvo. Remember, the US Military launched strikes from those ships, not only aircraft. So the fact that he, the Secretary himself, is the one who created this signal chat is why this is causing so much buzz around the Pentagon. And it's for the reason that the Secretary of Defense is supposed to be the model for the young men and women in the military who are supposed to follow his behavior. I was out on an aircraft carrier a little over a year ago when they were doing strikes against the Houthis. And just to give you a sense of how sens sensitive they are about the information about these strikes, about three or four days before the strikes began against the Houthis office aircraft carrier, the entire carrier, the entire ship, goes into this mode. I won't say the name of it, but they go into this mode where essentially no one is allowed to communicate with the outside. They cut off all their communications. You can't send a text home to mom and dad. You can't send an email to your wife or your husband back home. And that is because just the possibility that someone were to send a piece of information that could any way endanger the mission is such a high priority to ensure that the information is maintained, that they don't let those sailors communicate back home. So the fact that now we have this fantastic reporting out of the New York initially by the New York Times and matched by a number of other agencies. That's why this is getting so much attention. And as Jonathan mentioned, it also comes amidst this just utter chaos at the top at the Pentagon right now with a leak investigation that was announced by the Chief of Staff, Joe Casper, several weeks ago. And the first three people who were identified and actually escorted out of the building, two of them are extremely close to Secretary Hegseth, people he's known for years, worked with for years. They were in his inner circle. They were escorted out of the building, and now they're all talking about how they have no idea why they were even fired. So it's a level of uncertainty in the Pentagon that in my 20 years, I've never seen anything like it.
- [10:25]
Dom Chu
Willie.
- [10:26]
David Graham
All right, NBC's Courtney Kubier reporting for us from the Pentagon this morning. Courtney, thanks so much. Joe, you mentioned anyone who works in intelligence, works in the Defense Department. Frankly, the layman viewer watching the show knows you don't put classified information into a public space like that. Also, the senators who've jumped out, Republican senators raced out to defend Pete Hegseth again on this round.
- [10:47]
Joe Scarborough
How embarrassing.
- [10:47]
David Graham
They all know better and they were first in line on Hillary Clinton's private server.
- [10:51]
Joe Scarborough
I mean, how embarrassing for these GOP senators know so much better about it. And again, I would say Pete Hegseth knows better. That's what's so surprising is somebody that fought in combat, that somebody who understood the importance of, I mean, again, there are clips out there of him going after Hillary Clinton and the need to protect classified material. This is not, listen, this is just not a close call. Amic. Of course, the Wall Street Journal editorial page rightly concerned about this. And they write an editorial today saying Pete Hegseth is proving all of his critics right. He can blame it on the media if he wants to, but this is all his own fault. And all he's doing is proving people like Mitch McConnell and others who said he wasn't ready for this job, he wasn't up to this job yet, proving them right.
- [11:42]
Willie Geist
Yeah, the Wall Street Journal editorial board writing what they call the Hegseth Pentagon Chronicles, reading in part, quote, no doubt the Beltway press would love to knock Pete Hegseth out as Defense Secretary, but that doesn't come close to explaining the mess at the Pentagon. The staff infighting, dismissals and leaks over signal app chats look to be the self inflicted mistakes of a management neophyte. As GOP Senator Mitch McConnell warned in voting against Mr. Hegseth's confirmation, the desire to be a change agent isn't a sufficient cred to run the giant Pentagon bureaucracy. Mr. Hecht says calling card is enforcing high standards and accountability at every military level. He's relieved several general officers to make his point, sometimes firing indiscriminately without checking his scope. Is the secretary accountable himself? Let's bring in Rogers chair in the American presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian Jon Meacham.
- [12:50]
Joe Scarborough
And Jon, again, this is unthinkable for any secretary of defense.
- [12:57]
David Graham
Unthinkable that happened once.
- [12:58]
Joe Scarborough
Unthinkable. Just unthinkable that somebody would start their own chat and let civilians in on a pending strike. And the Wall Street Journal editorial page, well, they ask a question that answers itself. Let me ask you, can you imagine Bob Gates talking about a military strike on an app with friends and family. You can fill in on an iPhone. You can fill in Bob Gates with any other SecDef that has held that position in, you know, over the past 100 years. It just doesn't happen.
- [13:37]
Jon Meacham
Well, I knew you wanted me to speak this morning about Henry Knox, the.
- [13:42]
Joe Scarborough
First Secretary of War. Bing, bing, bing. I thought, I thought again, if it's around the horn, we would give him as many points as we gave Pablo for saying Barabbas. Thank you. Good Friday. Go ahead, John.
- [13:55]
Jon Meacham
So from Henry Knox to George Marshall to Bob Gates. No, I think Senator McConnell, I think the Journal's right to go harken back to that. Senator McConnell's vote was the right one. These things feel as if, and I'm not in any way making light of it, because these are military operations, these are soldiers, lives that are at stake. But it feels as if it's a fellow who got a really exciting new job and wants to talk about it. He seems very sort of hyped up about acronyms and terms. This is Tom Clancy come to power. And it's not where it seems to me the defenses of the country want to be. One of the things about Washington stories like this, as we know, is the ones that genuinely have impact are the specific that shed light on a universal right. So this is one where the specific is here's an unconventional figure doing a job for which, again, as some United States senator said, he probably not has the exact right preparation for. And it's a sign that perhaps the President Trump's view that disruption should be the central value in this second term is something that, guess what, might not be the best idea.
- [15:35]
Joe Scarborough
Well, I mean, they're places for disruption. But as we've said on this show every single day, the Pentagon is not one of them. It is. It's one of the most complicated, complex bureaucracies in the world. And speaking of Bob Gates, as we said time and time again, Bob Gates said he spent 75% of his time just trying to stay ahead of the game at the Pentagon. And it wasn't until the last maybe couple of hours at the Pentagon that he actually can get to his agenda. It is extraordinarily difficult as a job, and you don't put a neophyte in there, especially one that seems so swept up by excitement that he again says the F16s are launching. I mean, again, it's just hard to believe. John, before we let you go, obviously we have, here's the New York Times groundbreaking Pope Reshaped the Church, the Wall Street Journal. The Pope talks about the Pope of firsts reshaping the church. You have the Daily News and then the New York Post. Simply, Pope Francis talk about the Pope and his role not just in the Catholic Church, but also in global Christianity.
- [16:55]
Jon Meacham
Well, I think one of the ways to think about the papacy and sort of broad popular political culture certainly in the last 60, 70, even 80 years, is that they significantly, pontiffs have often reflected either a large spirit of the time or embodied the counterintuitive, countervailing spirit. And I think about John Paul ii, whose remarkable anti Communism was in many ways in tune with what President Reagan and Prime Minister Thatcher were doing in other parts of the West. Pope Francis is a little different in that as we as the world watches over the next six days, seven days going into what will be a remarkable funeral on Saturday. Pope Francis didn't so much reflect the spirit of the times as gently and lovingly rebuke it. He was the embodiment of not what was unfolding, but what was, but what should be unfolding. And I think that there's no, you know, we all judge not lest you be judged. I'm not casting any aspersions as somebody who fails six times before I turn on the coffee maker in life, you know, this is, this is just an observation. There, there will be a stark contrast and it will be lost on no one when the legacy of a man who devoted himself to the gospel of Jesus Christ, particularly the essence of the Sermon on the Mount, the words in the Last Supper, the first shall be last, the last shall be first. Love thy neighbor as I have loved you. And the powers of the world who will come to commemorate him. They will want to be seen in the basilica. They will want to be seen as ennobled by this pageant, pageantry. But I just hope they understand that these are not. It's not just about the images of their attending the funeral. It's about whether they heed the words that Francis lived by.
- [19:16]
David Graham
So, John, as you mentioned, the funeral will be in the early morning hours, Eastern time on Saturday morning. There's already a public debate and certainly a private debate that will be carried out among the cardinals from around the world as they lock themselves in the Sistine Chapel and we all wait for the white smoke about what kind of pope should come next, which is that this Pope was a departure from the previous two. Les doctrinaire famously said, who am I to judge about LBGT members who wanted to join the church? What do you suspect may happen Next here. Will this next choice be a reaction to Pope Francis or a continuation of.
- [19:54]
Jon Meacham
Him to judge the politics of the Roman Catholic Curia? We can barely judge America, so I'm going to be going to be very careful. I do think that there's a lot of talk among Roman Catholics, whom I know and love, about once again going outside Western Europe. Would there be a way to elect a pope from the more developing world who is also conservative? That's a very important base for orthodox Catholicism and really orthodox religion, period. And so it would not be surprising to see a pope who might not look like any other pope, but who is very much rooted in the traditions and the traditional theology of the church.
- [21:01]
Joe Scarborough
All right. Historian Jon Meacham, thank you so very much. You will be in our thoughts and prayers for those minutes before you go get your coffee and stumble around at least six or seven times. It's pretty good.
- [21:15]
Jon Meacham
Thank you.
- [21:17]
Willie Geist
Take care. Thank you, John.
- [21:18]
Joe Scarborough
Giving me a run for my money. It's very interesting for people that don't follow the church or theology closely. Jonathan O'Mear, I know you study it all the time, but it's true actually of the Catholic Church. It's also true of the Anglican Church that often the most conservative members are in the developing world, are in the South. So if somebody sees that a pope of color, for instance, is going to be the pope and they're going, oh, yay, they're going to carry on the liberalizing tradition of Pope Francis, of course, it will differ from cardinal to cardinal. But actually, again, in the Anglican Church and in the Protestant church, in the Catholic Church, actually, some of the most conservative theology is practiced in the Southern.
- [22:11]
Jonathan O'Meara
Hemisphere, where the church is newer and perhaps more and growing and growing and adhering more to the sort of traditional doctrine. And that had been when Pope Francis first grew ill a few weeks ago. But did have some conversations with people speculating who the next pope might be and what Jon Meacham just said there was sort of the consensus. And we should of course know that we don't know what's going to happen in the Sistine Chapel until the smoke comes out of that chimney. But there is a sense it wouldn't be a surprise if let's say it's a more centrist or moderate pope from Africa, perhaps the first time that would be the case. Or Asia. There's never been an Asian pope or an African pope in the Catholic Church's tradition, of course, Pope Francis I from Latin America. So there is a sense that that could be a nod towards still change, but perhaps a step back from France's more progressive ideas.
- [22:57]
Willie Geist
All right. Still ahead on Morning Joe, President Trump ramps up his attacks against Federal Reserve chair Jerome Powell. Go live to CNBC for an early look at how markets are reacting to the president's call to cut interest rates. Plus, we'll have the latest on the deportation or forced removal case against Kilmar Abrego Garcia as four Democratic lawmakers visit El Salvador to advocate for his release from prison. You're watching Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds.
- [23:40]
Unknown Speaker
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free. Plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja New. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [24:10]
Joe Scarborough
Citizens, since we each upgraded to Xfinity in our homes, the WI fi has been booming. It's fair to say our town has officially become a boom town. Mayor, will I be able to drop.
- [24:20]
Courtney Kubi
Into multiplayer gaming battles with low laps?
- [24:23]
Joe Scarborough
The lag won't be an issue, but your questionable skills may be.
- [24:26]
Willie Geist
And what if I have hundreds of.
- [24:27]
Jonathan O'Meara
Devices on the WI Fi?
- [24:29]
Willie Geist
Purely hypothetical.
- [24:30]
Joe Scarborough
Seems like a lot, but sure, hundreds of devices all booming together with the Xfinity Gateway. Yes, friends and neighbors, with Xfinity, the WI fi is booming.
- [24:39]
Courtney Kubi
Restrictions apply.
- [24:40]
Unknown Speaker
Sir David Frost gave us a front row seat to history. Now we discover his most iconic interviews. MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series, David Frost versus beginning Sunday at 9:00pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [24:57]
Joe Scarborough
All right. I was going to ask about, about Conclave. I think everybody here's watched it. I think it's going to be time to watch it again.
- [25:04]
Willie Geist
We need to rewatch really amazing a.
- [25:05]
David Graham
Team rewatch in preparation for this real life Conclave.
- [25:08]
Jonathan O'Meara
Best movie I saw last year.
- [25:09]
David Graham
Yeah.
- [25:09]
Joe Scarborough
Was it best movie?
- [25:11]
David Graham
Yeah.
- [25:11]
Jonathan O'Meara
I only saw like three, but it, but, but no, it was fantastic. And we were talking here at the break. The acting terrific.
- [25:17]
Joe Scarborough
Oh my gosh, everybody was amazing.
- [25:22]
David Graham
Stanley Tucci, Isabella Rossellini.
- [25:24]
Joe Scarborough
Oh my God, they were great.
- [25:25]
Willie Geist
All right, time now to take a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning at 25 past the hour. The price of gold has hit a new record high of thirty five hundred dollars an ounce.
- [25:36]
Joe Scarborough
That good?
- [25:36]
Willie Geist
It comes in response to President Trump's trade wars. As the New York Times points out, gold is often a safe Haven for investors during times of market turmoil. Oil and its price has surged more than 30% since the start of the year.
- [25:52]
Joe Scarborough
You know, Willie, there are a lot of people that can be accused of, you know, doing like what Zuckerberg has done and, and getting nervous and of course, law firms that have capitulated and have folded. To the President, I will tell you, there is one institution you cannot say that. Wall Street Journal editor. Now they're right every day and they're not doing it from some left, they're doing it from a very conservative. Mr. President, please don't threaten the Fed chair. You're going to cause a market rout. Please don't be careful about the bond market. But you know, nobody can say that, that during these times that the Wall Street Journal editorial page tried to do the old Homer Simpson and hide in the bushes, disappear into the bushes every day in every way.
- [26:49]
David Graham
Here's part of what they're writing. The Wall Street Journal writing the fire Jerome Powell market route. It reads, if the White House wanted a test of how firing Jerome Powell would go over in the markets, it succeeded. On Monday, US Stocks and the dollar plunged while yields on long term Treasuries climbed after President Trump renewed his attacks on the Federal Reserve Chairman Mark markets. Now they know that tariffs are taxes and taxes are anti growth. The Trump tariffs are the biggest economic policy mistake in decades and extending the 2017 Tax Reform and deregulation may not compensate for all the damage. Smart presidents pay attention to market signals and adapt, writes the Journal. The adaptation now would be to negotiate a quick end to the tariff barrage, claim some trade deal victories and call it a day. But markets are spooked because they don't know if Mr. Trump listens to anyone but his own impulses. It's a good time to bring in CNBC senior markets correspondent Dom Chu. Dom, good to see you this morning. Also from the Journal, on the news side, this headline this morning, Dow headed for worst April since the Great Depression. Oh my God, what is this all about?
- [27:55]
Dom Chu
So basically what we have is a situation where over the course of the last several weeks there's been a, an evolving narrative, if you will.
- [28:03]
J
Right.
- [28:03]
Dom Chu
We talked about this notion that with new policies, especially on the tariff front, what you have is a new degree of uncertainty brought to global markets, global trade that then manifests itself in the way that markets have reacted with some of that downside volatility. Now I remember over the course of the last few weeks having this conversation kind of around the lead up to that so called liberation Day and the tariff announcement about the the stabilization factor of the US Market in the US Economy. Over the course of the last several decades, the American economy and the markets, the capital markets have been seen as a stabilizing force within the global economy and the global market, one that you can turn to no matter what in good times and in bad. That that narrative has shifted a little bit more. It started off a little bit more along the lines of can you still trust the US Dollar? Now the US Dollar is the preeminent and the world's really only reserve currency out there. It's the to because pretty much every asset out there worth having is denominated in US Dollars. The US treasury market is the deepest, most liquid sovereign bond market in the world. It is the safest place to be. In the course of the last few weeks, there has been a little bit of chatter early on about the luster coming off some of those assets, the US Dollar and the US treasury side of things. Over the course of the last couple of weeks, there is now a full blown debate in certain parts of Wall street about whether or not there is a market sh coming off the value of the US Dollar and the US treasury market. In no way is anybody out there saying that the US Dollar is still not a reserve currency. There is in no way anybody saying that the US treasury market is not the place that you want to be. But when you have a possible paradigm shift, a change in thinking about the way that the dollar is valued and viewed in the global market, the way that our sovereign bonds, the U.S. treasury market, is viewed in the market, that that shift or potential shift is enough to have traders and investors, not just here in America, but around the world, questioning whether or not you have to change the way that you think about it. Now, to be fair, Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, like every other treasury secretary before him, has proclaimed the notion of a strong US Dollar and of course the idea that the US Capital markets are the deepest, most liquid in the world, the question now becomes, guys, whether or not that incremental effect of not just the tariff and trade policy, but now the attacks on the central bank and its independence and its leader are making those assets again, relatively less attractive. They are still the most attractive out there, but in a term of relative less luster, could that change the way that people think about the way that the US Markets operate? That's what you're kind of seeing play out right now.
- [30:56]
Unknown Speaker
Now.
- [30:56]
Joe Scarborough
All right, CNBC's Dom Chu, thank you so much, greatly appreciate it and I love how Dom pointed out that we're still, obviously still where people have gone will, will continue to go most likely. And all of this depends on what Donald Trump decides he wants to do. I think that's what's rattling the markets is that it's one person who's deciding how far he takes this. But the United States does remain this massive economic power. And while this has been the worst April since the Great Depression, one wonders if he starts striking deals with the UK, with Europe, with Japan, with South Korea and and stops talking about Jerome Powell. One wonders if that market doesn't go back up.
- [31:59]
Jonathan O'Meara
It certainly may and investors seem to like have built in that expectation but it hasn't happened yet. And let's be clear, we're now.
- [32:05]
Joe Scarborough
Well yesterday was because of Powell.
- [32:08]
Jonathan O'Meara
Powell down almost a thousand points.
- [32:10]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, very concerned about that.
- [32:11]
Jonathan O'Meara
The Powell talk is it rattled the markets and the trade deals. We're now three weeks since Liberation Day, three weeks tomorrow since so called Liberation Day. Nothing's done. There has been some preliminary talks I'm told furthest along with Japan there have been some other negotiations that have begun as well but nothing's done. And in fact even some very Trump friendly economists. Charles Gasparino, who we know the White House listens to is on Fox News last night was talking about how he believes there's been real snags in the deal with Japan and that nothing is close. That Besant over promised the speed at which these things would get done. So therefore if indeed this does drag on for days, in weeks longer which it seems likely, then it becomes a question of Trump's pain threshold. Is he going to push another pause perhaps to buy more time to maybe boost the markets. Right now they're rattled.
- [32:59]
Joe Scarborough
Well you know again it's a lot like what I said about Doge early on. Transparency would have been the better route to say this is what we're doing today. This today we're going to be looking at usaid. These are the programs we're concerned about about and do it that way. Don't sneak up on people. It's the same thing with the tariffs and the negotiations. I mean I pretty confident, I let me just say maybe kinda that you know, they want a deal, they want to move toward a deal but if they've hit a snag it would be good. Say these are what we're negotiating just like they do with orange deal. We've had an issue on this problem or that problem. We're talking Japan, we're going to work through it. But that Transparency would be very good for the markets.
- [33:50]
David Graham
This is where that Silicon Valley, Elon Musk move fast and break stuff thing catches up to work.
- [33:56]
Joe Scarborough
And by the way, look with the federal government, look where Elon Musk, he tried. Look where he is today. It doesn't work, right? It doesn't work.
- [34:03]
David Graham
And talking to some people too, in Washington, they believe now the President's trying to set up Jerome Powell as the villain, Right? Because he sees what's happening to the economy. He understands perhaps that he's made a mistake with these tariffs. He's watching the markets tank. Worst April since the Great Depression. He doesn't want that on him. So now he's trying in some way to say he won't cut rates, it's his fault. If he would just go along with me, the economy would be fine. Which is not true.
- [34:27]
Jonathan O'Meara
And speaking of Musk, we should note today, there's a Tesla earnings call today. Some people believe that Musk in that call might reveal how much longer he's going to stay working for the American.
- [34:34]
Willie Geist
Administration and how well the company is doing.
- [34:37]
Joe Scarborough
I mean, again, their problem is part of the problem, Jonathan, is a political problem. Obviously he. The very areas where he used to get the most, you know, whether you look at California or let's just say bluer states where he'd find most of his EV customers, those sales are drying up. You look at France, you look at Germany, you look at, at his EV sales in Europe getting absolutely pounded because again, he got involved unnecessarily in far right politics to little to no effect. In fact, God, you. Have you looked at the numbers in Canada lately? I mean, Carney is going to probably win an outright majority there. You look at what's happened across Europe, it's not working. All he's doing is damaging his brand. And then China, I mean, if this were just politics, that would be one problem with Tesla. The problem is he's getting lapped in China on technology. The very. Again, I'm not giving Elon Musk advice, but the last thing this guy needs to do right now when he's getting pounded, what has he lost, 100, $150 billion? It is time to go back to your day job. I mean, he's getting pounded, Tesla is getting routed.
- [35:59]
Jonathan O'Meara
Yeah, the trade war with China certainly doesn't help. And let's note again, there's been no conversation zero between the United States and Chinese negotiators on, on any kind of trade deal. And we've seen Tesla's market, you know, vehicles fall off a cliff in Europe, their sales. And here in the United States, it's because it's certainly in blue enclaves where his most faithful customers used to live. You see it in the streets in New York City. You see it in Washington. Bumper stickers put on Tesla saying like, you know, I had this before the election. Like you basically trying to get some.
- [36:25]
Joe Scarborough
Difference separation and again, trying to think more damning. He's being lapped like technology. The cars are better in China. They're cheaper. They're doing like Tesla can't compete in China. That in California are two of his biggest markets.
- [36:42]
Jonathan O'Meara
Yeah. And that's why we have seen the company's fortunes really suffer here of late. And there's certainly a widespread belief that Musk will start to wind down maybe rapidly his time with the administration in order to try to pilot and right the ship with Tesla. But he's got a lot of obstacles, self created obstacles in front of them.
- [36:58]
Willie Geist
So coming up, we're going to show you the scary moment. Delta Air Lines passengers were forced to evacuate their plane after an engine caught fire on the tarmac.
- [37:07]
Joe Scarborough
Is Greyhound still up? Still go. Great.
- [37:12]
Willie Geist
Plus, New York, Jonathan Blitzer joins us to explain what he calls Donald Trump's deportation obsession. Morning Joe will be right back.
- [37:38]
Unknown Speaker
MSNBC presents Main Justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the truck administration's Department of Justice.
- [37:50]
Jonathan O'Meara
The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy. I think what we are seeing is Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.
- [38:01]
Unknown Speaker
Main Justice. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [38:18]
Willie Geist
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [38:23]
Unknown Speaker
Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com nearly 300.
- [38:39]
Willie Geist
People had to evacuate a Delta plane in Florida after its right engine caught fire.
- [38:45]
Joe Scarborough
I mean, come on, friendly skies and all that. What's happening?
- [38:49]
Willie Geist
NBC News senior correspondent Tom Costello might have some answers.
- [38:53]
Joe Scarborough
Okay. Come on, Tom. At Orlando International, fire on the ramp.
- [38:57]
Courtney Kubi
We're calling the fire trucks right now.
- [38:59]
Jonathan O'Meara
We do that.
- [38:59]
Joe Scarborough
Thank you very much. The Right side engine on a fully loaded Delta Airlines flight spewing flames just moments after pushing back from the gate. There's obviously people on that plane. As pilots quickly shut off fuel to the engine. Passengers evacuated the jumbo jet deck emergency slides. The process slowed with passengers only able to evacuate from the left side of the plane. Please take your time going down the stairs. On board the Orlando to Atlanta flight. Channing Wells and her nine year old son returning home after a Disney cruise. So you had everyone in the back of the plane in a panic trying.
- [39:32]
Willie Geist
To rush to the front and then.
- [39:34]
Joe Scarborough
All of a sudden you start smelling the smoke and different things like that.
- [39:37]
Willie Geist
And then everyone was panicking.
- [39:39]
Joe Scarborough
Firefighters quickly doused the flames as passengers gathered on the ramp. Delta says the highly unusual fire happen happened in the engine's tailpipe.
- [39:47]
Mika Brzezinski
In my many years of flying, tailpipe.
- [39:49]
Joe Scarborough
Fires are very rare. I was trained for it, but in.
- [39:54]
Mika Brzezinski
All my years I never had a tailpipe fire.
- [39:56]
Joe Scarborough
The latest in a string of high profile aviation incidents this year that have flyers on edge. I can't.
- [40:03]
Willie Geist
I don't want to talk about it.
- [40:04]
Joe Scarborough
It's hard, you know, it's hard enough for me getting m on airplanes. This has made it. This has made. She did not like flying. This is my. This is all Will. I want to lodge a complaint with somebody. This is making it a lot harder to get Mika on air.
- [40:19]
David Graham
You need a blackout on these stories when Mika's.
- [40:21]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, well, by the way, I used to, I used to tell Alex, hey, you know, tell Mika she has to go upset and then we'd do the plane deal. But there are, you know, there are a lot of people.
- [40:33]
Willie Geist
The one with the people upside down. Oh my God.
- [40:35]
Joe Scarborough
Who are regular flyers that. Yeah, you wonder what's going. Hold on, I want to keep talking about. No, I don't want you wondering, wonder what's going on there. Now it is important for us to remember that even over the past four or five years, remember we had Tom, poor Tom, had a lot of those incursions, those Runway incursions.
- [40:55]
David Graham
Close calls. Yeah.
- [40:57]
Joe Scarborough
I think things are. I think things are just too crowded out there, up there.
- [41:02]
David Graham
Well, that was one of the main parts of the collision in Washington a couple of months ago was just the amount of traffic coming in and out of on the schedule. So we'll see if that changes. It is important to remind everyone that flying is safer than it's ever been in human history. Ever been these isolated.
- [41:17]
Joe Scarborough
It is so safe. No, it really is. The numbers are incredible. I will say though, again with Washington. I mean, maybe you've asked this question of somebody in Washington. You go there, but people on the street.
- [41:31]
Willie Geist
But is everything okay?
- [41:32]
Joe Scarborough
They had, they had the, the horrific tragedy with a helicopter and the plane. And then like a couple of weeks later, they're flying like jets, like right, right across Reagan national. Like, like, are they figuring it on you?
- [41:51]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah.
- [41:51]
Joe Scarborough
No, I'm asking are they figuring this out? When are they going to stop flying military planes and helicopters across the flight path of one of the busiest airports in America?
- [42:01]
Jonathan O'Meara
They haven't yet. They have scaled it back.
- [42:03]
Joe Scarborough
Why haven't they? This is not a hard call.
- [42:05]
Jonathan O'Meara
This is something that the FAA and the DOT Commissioner Duffy has suggested will take on. Members of Congress have looked into his role from Senator Cruz. We should also note, though, members of Congress are the ones who advocated increased number of flights in and out of DCA because they in part use them to get home on the weekends. They've expanded the number of cities that airport serves. It's an extremely busy airport and there's a lot of military installations understandably near the nation's capital. But there is some evaluation being done as to some of the flight paths. But the, those flights have not stopped entirely.
- [42:37]
Joe Scarborough
I. So here's what you do. You fly them around the airspace.
- [42:42]
Willie Geist
Thank you. J.
- [42:43]
Joe Scarborough
Is that all right? You don't have to fly them straight up. I could testify to this right there. No. Have you, did you take your neck? No. You? No. How do I, I have flown in Washington on Tik Tok.
- [42:55]
David Graham
That made me real mad. That's your, that's what you tell the panel.
- [42:59]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. Here, let me show you this Tik Tok video, sir.
- [43:03]
Willie Geist
Okay. Still ahead on MORNING time, author and staff writer for the Atlantic, David Graham will be here. He'll be our guest with his new book that dives into Project 2025 and how he says it is reshaping America. Also ahead, two time Oscar winner Ben Affleck and Emmy winner John Bernthal will be live in studio with a look at the their new film the Accountant 2 Morning Joe will be right back. Welcome back. President Trump yesterday complained the justice system is not allowing him to deport migrants. The president wrote on social media that the Supreme Court, with the exception of Justice Alito, does not want him to remove migrants his administration claims are gang members. The president also claimed his administration could not give everyone it wants to deport a trial because to do so would take 200 years. The post was his first comment on the issue since the Supreme Court on Saturday temporarily blocked any New deportations or forced removals under the Alien Enemies Act. A bit of context when it comes to due process. Back in 2014, a report from the nonpartisan think tank the Migration Policy Institute looked at how the deportation system changed over the previous two decades. It found that before 1996, the vast majority of those facing deportation received immigration court hearings. That system, according to the report, dramatically changed to a system today of non judicial removals where 75% of people removed do not see a judge before being expelled from the US as the ACLU summarized the Obama administration has prioritized speed over fairness in the removal system, sacrificing individualized due process in the pursuit of record removal numbers.
- [45:24]
Joe Scarborough
And rev. I know you were at times you brought this issue up in front of Obama administration officials. Of course, the difference here was the Obama administration usually focused on illegal immigrants close to the border and they would get them on buses or do whatever and deport them that way. It certainly never used 200-year-old statute.
- [45:51]
Willie Geist
To get people to a prison.
- [45:52]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, to get people to a prison in El Salvador. And I think that's obviously the huge difference here with the Supreme Court at least saying you can't grab people off the street, throw them onto a plane, send them to one of the worst prisons in the hemisphere without giving them due process. No, I think that's right. Some of us that had a good relationship with the Obama administration agree with ACLU about what they were doing, but it was nowhere near what we're seeing now. They were not flying people to places like El Salvador. They were not arrogantly saying we don't care about due process and then at the same time saying, and we'll give refugee status to farmers from South Africa. The contradictions here are glaring and much different than what we raised during the time of President Obama. Well, you know, Willie, there's obviously a very big difference between deportation where every legal immigrant, illegal immigrant that's being deported doesn't see a judge. There's a big difference again between that, which actually is a good pathway. If that's what the Obama, if that's what the Trump administration wants to do and they want to stand on precedent, they don't have to go back 200 years. They don't have to sweep people up off the streets, throw them onto a plane, ignore federal judges orders, send them down to El Salvador. I mean, they have a pathway if they want to do it the legal way that has legal precedent. And you know, that was at least if you look at the numbers, Barack Obama, again, derided by his own base for being the deporter in chief. But you look at the numbers, Donald Trump's never gotten close to deporting that many illegal immigrants.
- [47:34]
David Graham
Yeah, sometimes that chapter is forgotten that progressives, progressives called Barack Obama the deporter in chief because of what Mika just laid out in those numbers there. But there's, there was a different way that they went about deporting people, different from what we're seeing right now. Let's talk more about this with staff writer for the New Yorker, Jonathan Blitzer. His new opinion piece for the magazine is titled Donald Trump's Deportation Obsession. Jonathan, good morning. So where does this obsession come from? Let's just start with that. What's the guiding philosophy here?
- [48:03]
J
I think Trump, more than really any other contemporary politician, has defined himself, his own brand as basically being someone who is going to inform, enforced the immigration laws to a degree we've never seen before. And he's gone so far, in fact, that he's exceeded the existing laws. And so he's promised a campaign of mass deportation. And in the process of that campaign where he's trying to, you know, prove to his supporters that he's willing to do anything and everything to, you know, treat immigrants harshly, he has started to do things that really raise major questions about the administration's suspension of the rule of law, ignoring judges orders, ignoring immigration judges orders, ignoring, ignoring federal judges injunctions, the Supreme Court's injunctions and so on, invoking a law from 1798 to basically summarily deport people without any due process, branding them gang members without any evidence. People aren't even sure what the charges are against them. And they've basically been shipped to what, in effect is a legal black site in a third country.
- [49:01]
Joe Scarborough
And there are obviously, there has been a wing of the Republican Party that has wanted this for a long time. You write about that. There's also, of course, when I was there, another wing that was sort of like the more Reagan wing, which was let as many immigrants in as want to come in. It's better for our economy. But Donald Trump, though, if you look at his approval numbers, you know, they're upside down, especially on inflation, on the economy, on things they've never been upside down on. But you look at his numbers on immigration, and they're up there like they would far rather us be talking about immigration, immigration and Abreu Garcia than talking about Jay Powell or the stock markets. And they will hegseth and they will tell you, please, they're thinking, please talk about you Know, immigration instead of hegseth, immigration instead of tariffs, immigration instead of the market. Because his numbers are strong on immigration.
- [50:02]
J
Well, you're zeroing in on something that I think has really befuddled Democrats, which is the fact that, you know, his numbers seem strong in immigration. I do really think, and I insist that although people in general, when you look at polling, say, okay, they're okay with the idea of mass deportation, they're okay with the idea of increased immigration enforcement and so on. What we're actually seeing is something far harsher than anything he's promised, something far uglier than anything he said he would do. I do think that, by and large, if Americans followed closely what was happening to people who were caught up in this immigration enforcement draft, I do think they would be appalled. But it's up to Democrats to really hold his feet to the fire. And right now, I think they're anxious.
- [50:41]
Joe Scarborough
You know, I think immigration is one issue, but I think Abrego Garcia, as flawed as he is in many ways, if you. If you look back at his history, I'm talking about him as a person. If you look at him as a person, that might not be somebody that people say, oh, this is who we want to, you know, know, go down and visit El Salvador, et cetera, et cetera. If you look at. Look at, you know, domestic violence, etc. Etc. And yet, at the same time, that is breaking through. I had a debate with a friend of mine who was like, oh, Democrats are so stupid. I said, I'm not so sure they're so stupid. I think this is so heinous that even with a guy that. That. That has a very complicated past, it is breaking through. And what did we see on Joe Rogan's show?
- [51:36]
Willie Geist
Well, we'll talk about that in just a moment. But you heard from his union where they were saying, bring our brother home.
- [51:41]
Joe Scarborough
Bring our brother home.
- [51:42]
Willie Geist
Four House Democrats were in El Salvador yesterday in an effort to get Kilmar Abrego Garcia released and to demand updates on him and other migrants who are imprisoned there. There are extremely harsh conditions at this prison where people are denied food and torture. The trip comes just a week after Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen met with the wrongfully removed Maryland man. And the members of Congress met with local human rights organizations and officials at the US Embassy. Salvadoran officials denied their requests to meet with Abrego Garcia themselves.
- [52:19]
Joe Scarborough
And I do think. I just. I think this case, against all odds, I think this case is breaking through with the American people.
- [52:26]
Willie Geist
Yeah. And you mentioned Podcaster Joe Rogan. Well, he's criticizing the Trump administration for its lack of support for due process in immigration, deportations, like in the case of Kilmar Abrego Garcia's forced removal. Here's some of what Joe Rogan said on his show last week.
- [52:47]
Mika Brzezinski
I think due process exists for a reason, and the reason is it is horrific for someone to be accused of something they didn't do, be imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit, and then live in a cel. Live in a cage with a bunch of people who did commit. Here it is. Benjamin Franklin. It's better 100 guilty persons should escape than one innocent person should suffer. That. That is wisdom that has survived hundreds of years. It's incredibly accurate, and it is the foundation of freedom. Like, we have to make sure that these people are actually guilty. Otherwise we become monsters. You can't. Like, what is that? When you fight monsters, be careful that you don't become one. Come on. Yeah, yeah. That's very important. It's very important. You know, you can't do that. To support one side of this, you have to deny some, like, basic human values. Either way, like, to support just rounding people up and just assuming they're all gang members. I'm not saying they're doing that, but this is the worst case scenario, right? They get a bunch of people in a room, they rope them all in, and one guy's just someone's cousin picking someone up to give him a ride home. That's possible. And now you're back on the one innocent person with. Now you're right back. And what if that dude is not doing anything wrong and he's got some stupid tattoos and they decide that this guy's a gang member, and now. Now you're in a prison in El Salvador, and you're not even from El Salvador. And now, you know you were just a hairdresser or you a tattoo artist, family man.
- [54:13]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah.
- [54:14]
Mika Brzezinski
You came over here, and maybe you got a green card, and maybe you don't. Maybe you were just given asylum because a lot of people from Venezuela were given asylum in America. And then you get shipped to El Salvador, where you're not even from El Salvador. So the fact that that exists scares the out of me. The problem with things that are going in a radical direction, and then there's an overcorrection. So the overcorrection is lack of due process. The overcorrection is like, round them all up, ship them to jail. Like, that's like, some things that you say when you're not thinking things through. Like, what do you do about all the criminals? Take them all, send them to El Salvador.
- [54:51]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah.
- [54:52]
Mika Brzezinski
What about due process? No, that. Well, here's the problem with that. What if you are an enemy of, let's not say any current president. Let's pretend we got a new president, totally new guy in 2028. And this is a common practice now of just rounding up gang members with no due process and shipping them to El Salvador. You're a gang member. No, I'm not. Prove it. What? I got to go to court? No. No due process. Us. That's dangerous, Joe. That's dangerous. That's dangerous. That's dangerous. We got to be careful that we don't become monsters while we're fighting monsters.
- [55:30]
Jonathan O'Meara
Let's be clear, Joe. Rogan endorsed Donald Trump for president. He's largely supportive of his agenda. He's a hugely influential platform there. And John, that he. I was struck. And Joe, I know you said so as well. He kept going. This is frightening. This is dangerous because there's sense. First of all, even Mr. Abraill Garcia, others who are currently in that prison in El Salvador did not receive due process. The Trump administration thinks these. They've picked the right villain. That's what they've said. They think that this is the person they want to scapegoat. Not only are these people who have rights to due process, but there is this undergoing fear that I think Rogan hinted at there. Well, it might start with them, but it can move to other groups too, including any of us.
- [56:06]
Joe Scarborough
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- [56:18]
Mika Brzezinski
Today, restrictions apply.