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Morning Joe
Morning Joe 4/24/25
00:53:57
Trump slams Zelenskyy for rejecting Ukraine-Russia negotiations, saying a deal was 'very close'
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- [00:00]
Mika Brzezinski
You know we love a good debate, right? Digging deep on the issues. It's kind of our thing.
- [00:06]
Joe Scarborough
But here's something that shouldn't need in depth analysis. No matter what's happening in our country.
- [00:11]
Willie Geist
People still need health care.
- [00:12]
Mika Brzezinski
That should be obvious, right?
- [00:14]
Joe Scarborough
That's why Planned Parenthood health centers are here to provide birth control, cancer screenings.
- [00:18]
Willie Geist
Abortion and more without judgment.
- [00:20]
Ian Brzezinski
But they can't do it alone.
- [00:21]
Joe Scarborough
If you believe everyone deserves access to care, donate now@plannedparenthood.org defend because healthcare shouldn't be up for debate.
- [00:31]
Richard Engel
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows now ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. And all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Velshi Band Book Club and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [01:01]
Joe Scarborough
He keeps pounding Zelensky and saying it's harder to deal with him than it is with Putin. Putin, so far as I can tell, hasn't agreed to much of anything except yes, he'd love to annex Crimea, which was part of the proposal that's before him. Now, that's no concession. That's just that all that is is taking a gain. Zelenskyy resists that because Crimea, up until the Russians invaded it 10 years or so ago, was part of Ukraine. So I'm not exactly sure what the president is talking about when he says that Zelenskyy has been more difficult to deal with than Putin. You know, there have been a series of ceasefire proposals. Putin either hasn't agreed to them or has immediately broken them. I'm not sure, you know, what concessions Putin will ever be willing to make, but he certainly hadn't made very many so far.
- [02:01]
Mika Brzezinski
Fox News chief political analyst Brit Hume, baffled by President Trump's comments that it was harder to deal with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky than Russian President Vladimir Putin when it comes to his efforts to end the war. It comes after a social media post from President Trump where he blamed the Ukrainian president for derailing negotiations to end Russia's invasion of his country. We'll go through all of that, as well as the possibility of another Trump Zelensky meeting. Plus, we're learning more about Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's use of signal amid his second scandal for sharing attack plans through the app. Also ahead, we'll dig into the president's latest comments on slashing tariffs for China and other major trading partners. And tonight in Green Bay, Wisconsin, NFL teams are hoping to pick their next franchise player. We'll have a preview of the draft's first round. And Willie and Jonathan Lemaire. Big question on the back of all the sports pages. Who are the Giants going to pick?
- [03:11]
Joe Scarborough
Well, it's a good question. It's most likely at number three to be Abdul Carter, the great edge rusher for Penn State. I know you've been calling that for months.
- [03:19]
Willie Geist
I was.
- [03:19]
Mika Brzezinski
That was tip of my tongue.
- [03:20]
Joe Scarborough
You were preaching Abdul Carter, Abdul Carter. You keep saying it, but then there's a lot of talk about them trading into the first round a little bit later so they can get a quarterback. Shador Sanders probably won't still be there at that point. Might be if they get up high enough. Could be, apparently Jackson Dart, the kid from Ole Miss.
- [03:36]
Sam Stein
Yeah. When this draft process started, people thought Shador Sanders might be a top five pick. That seems like he probably. He'll slide a little bit now, but the fate of our teams are really linked. The Giants pick third, Patriots pick fourth. So, Willie, I say this sincerely. I hope your team blows the pick and leaves someone really good for us. I think the Pats would love Abdul Carter, therefore, I don't think that's going to happen. I think the Patriots probably take an offensive lineman, which they need. We have many needs. Or trade back a little bit, but it should be good. It's not considered as strong of a draft class this year as others, but you never know. In terms of top talent, Cam Ward expected to go number one quarterback to the Titans.
- [04:11]
Joe Scarborough
You know, Mika, having it at Lambeau Field is just so cool. A cathedral to football. For generations, having it out, the draft has become such an event and a spectacle where you get hundreds of thousands of people showing up to watch it. So be fun tonight no matter who your team is.
- [04:26]
Mika Brzezinski
I've been thinking about it all night.
- [04:27]
Sam Stein
I can't wait.
- [04:28]
Mika Brzezinski
Gosh. Okay. Also with this managing editor at the Bulwarks, Sam Stein joins us. Let's get to our top story this morning. President Trump once again grew angry at Ukraine's president on social media yesterday, accusing Zelensky of, quote, inflammatory statements that will only prolong the war with Russia. In a lengthy message, President Trump criticized Zelensky for saying Ukraine would not recognize the Crimean peninsula as Russian territory. Trump went on to call the situation dire for Ukraine while adding the United States, Ukraine and Russia are very close to a deal. And quote, the man with no cards to play should now finally get it Done. It's painful. Hours after the president spoke about the negotiations and was asked directly if the deal on the table includes officially recognizing the Crimean Peninsula as Russian territory.
- [05:30]
Joe Scarborough
I will say that I think Russia is ready.
- [05:34]
Willie Geist
And a lot of people said Russia wanted to go for the whole thing. And they've.
- [05:40]
Joe Scarborough
I think we have a deal with Russia. We have to get a deal with Zelensky. And I hope that Zelensky, I thought it might be easier to deal with Zelensky. So far it's been harder, but that's okay. It's all right. But, but I think we have a deal with both. If I may, this deal that you.
- [05:57]
Anne Applebaum
Have with Russia, does it include recognizing Russia's sovereignty over Crimea?
- [06:04]
Joe Scarborough
Well, everything is good. I just want to see the war end.
- [06:08]
Willie Geist
I don't care if they're both happy.
- [06:10]
Joe Scarborough
They both sign an agreement.
- [06:13]
Willie Geist
I have no favorites.
- [06:14]
Joe Scarborough
I don't want to have any favorites. I want to have a deal. More on those remarks in a moment. They followed a series of developments in peace talks that began with the announcement that Secretary of State Marco Rubio would not attend what were supposed to be high level meetings in London with European negotiating teams. Instead, Trump's envoy for Ukraine and Russia, retired Army Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg, met with Ukrainian officials. Those Ukrainian officials met separately with teams from the U.K. germany and France. Tomorrow, presidential envoy Steve Witkoff is set to meet with Vladimir Putin for the fourth time. All of this comes as Russia continues to bombard Ukrainian cities. Nine people were killed in the capital of Kyiv overnight and more than 70 were injured by a massive Russian missile and drone strike. So, Jonathan Lemire, obviously Russia, Vladimir Putin, emboldened by having a new president who they view as very favorable to his approach here and his war aims. But if you go back to what President Trump said, again explicitly attacking our ally, attacking President Zelensky, and again putting all of the burden, all of the onus on the victim of this invasion three years ago. Where does this go from here? Are they setting a pretext to walk away completely from all of this? Because if you look at what we've had reported out from this apparent peace deal, it gives everything Russia could have ever wanted when it started this war.
- [07:41]
Sam Stein
Let's start right there. The White House Trump administration has asked Russia to give up nothing. There's been no compromise, no concession requested from the Trump team. He has a number of times even blames Zelensky for the start of this war, which is preposterous. There's a sovereign nation, Russia invaded In February of 2022, we know from Marco Rubio last week saying that the United States might be willing to walk away from peace talks if a deal can't get done soon. We had JD Vance yesterday while overseas spelling out, we'll get into the details in a moment, conditions for a ceasefire for peace, which would involve Ukraine giving up Crimea. And that's the sticking point right now. This is the Ukrainians are simply not going to recognize Russian territory. Now there's going to be dispute over it. There's certainly been sense even during the while President Biden was in office whether Ukraine really had the ability to retake Crimea. But that is simply not going to be. You don't start the negotiations there. And that's where the Trump team seems to want, which is such a huge concession from Zelensky, also having to say we'll never join NATO while asking nothing of Russia continuing to fawn in many ways, as Witcock has done over Vladimir Putin, siding with Moscow day in, day out in this conflict.
- [08:55]
Mika Brzezinski
And Lemire, as you mentioned, while traveling in India Yesterday, Vice President J.D. vance repeated the administration's warning about the US walking away from negotiations between Russia and Ukraine if a deal isn't reached soon.
- [09:13]
Joe Scarborough
Well, I'm going to echo something Secretary Rubio said, which is, look, we've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process. We have engaged in an extraordinary amount of diplomacy of on the ground work. We've really tried to understand things from the perspective of both the Ukrainians and the Russians. What do Ukrainians care the most about? What are the Russians care the most about? And I think that we've put together a very fair proposal.
- [09:43]
Mika Brzezinski
All right. And before we get to our experts, what. Yeah, tell me what you're thinking right now.
- [09:48]
Sam Stein
I mean, right now. I mean, even as the vice president said that, he said, we're trying to understand each side's perspective, the trying to understand the Russian Russia's perspective. We know what their perspective is. They invaded a sovereign nation, they want.
- [09:59]
Mika Brzezinski
To seize territory, and Trump wants to give it to them. Yeah, that is the bottom line.
- [10:03]
Sam Stein
Doesn't seem much, much up front for interpretation.
- [10:05]
Mika Brzezinski
The Wall Street Journal editorial board has a new piece entitled Trump's Ukraine Ultimatum. It reads in part, quote, Mr. Trump's current offer looks more like an ultimatum than grounds for a durable peace. Mr. Trump is angry that Ukraine won't accept a deal that legitimizes Russia's occupation. Of Crimea as if this is a minor map revision. The US Refusal to credit territory seized by invasion is a principle intended to deter future marauders. Letting Russia keep its navy in Crimea is a threat to Europe as much as to Ukraine. A peace or even an armistice worth the name requires compromise on both sides. But Mr. Trump has applied pressure only on Ukraine. Mr. Trump likes to say Ukraine doesn't have the cards, but it does have one ace. The president won't be able to abandon Ukraine without paying a heavy political price. Mr. Trump can still salvage a deal in Ukraine, but the current final settlement offer looks like it would set up Mr. Putin to win the war. Now the world's rogues will notice, and Mr. Trump's headaches will have only begun.
- [11:28]
Joe Scarborough
Willie, you know, the New York Times reminds us this morning that now Secretary of State Marco Rubio, then Senator Rubio just three years ago co sponsored legislation, an amendment to prohibit the United States from ever recognizing any Russian claim over parts of Ukraine that his seize, which includes Crimea. It's saying exactly what the Wall Street Journal just said. It sets a terrible precedent. China's Taiwan is watching on and on. Let's bring in staff writer at the Atlantic and Applebaum and former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Europe and NATO policy, Ian Brzezinski. Good morning to you both. Ian, I'll start with you and just read a quote from President Zelensky in reaction to this apparent proposal, this peace deal, as the United States is calling it, quote, there is nothing to talk about. That's from President Zelensky. So where do you see us going from here?
- [12:18]
Ian Brzezinski
Thanks. You know, let me put this in historical context. I mean, what we see President Trump doing is basically forcing Europe and Ukraine to make concessions of territory and sovereignty of the likes that we haven't seen since the 1938 Munich Agreement, when Neville Chamberlain forced Czechoslovakia to give up the Sudetenland to Hitler, an agreement that unleashed the violence of World War II. It's something we haven't seen since the Yalta Accord, an accord that enabled Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin to impose a sphere of influence over central and Eastern Europe, a domination that lasted for five decades. And the tragedy of this, it is totally unnecessary because Trump likes to say he has all the cards. And in fact, the transatlantic community led by the United States does have all the cards. We have some $55 trillion in GDP among NATO nations. That's about half of the world's GDP against Russia's $2 trillion. The alliance spends about $1.5 trillion on defense annually against Russia's $200 billion, that's a factor of 10. It's amazing that the west, led by Trump, isn't forcing or enabling Ukraine to end this war on its terms. And it's a tragedy. You know, Biden failed to leverage that power against Putin. But Trump is even weaker than Biden. Not only is he forcing Ukraine into concessions, he's setting up dynamics that history has taught us will set up the pretext for a wider and more dangerous war. So Trump is not leveraging American power very effectively. He's proving weak, and he's undermining not just Ukraine, but our own interests in having enduring peace and stability in Europe.
- [14:11]
Joe Scarborough
So, Ann, if we're reaching back to Neville Chamberlain, reaching back to Yalta, not a good sign, obviously. I'm curious what you make of what we've seen just in the last 24 hours, the statements from the president, Secretary of State Marco Rubio declining to show up for those negotiations in London, all against the backdrop of the enduring question of more than a decade, which is why. Why does President Trump, why does he always, as a reflex, side with Vladimir Putin and Russia?
- [14:43]
Anne Applebaum
So I will. I'll start by saying, you know, agreeing with Ian, to say that Putin has never given up his main goal in Ukraine. His goal is to remove Ukrainian sovereignty, to change the nature of the Ukrainian government, to make sure that Ukraine does not ever integrate with Europe, to make sure that it stays inside some kind of Russian sphere of influence, preferably maybe even sharing sovereignty with Russia. So he has never, ever said that he has given that up. Sometimes he'll change his language a little bit, but he maintains that all the time. And so even in all these negotiations, they keep talking about how they've been talking and talking and they're tired of the negotiations and so on. They've never, ever put any pressure on Russia to change it. And you're right to ask, why is it that Trump continues to support this? And the only answer I can see is that, you know, Trump admires people who have unlimited power. He admires people who don't have checks and balances. He admires people who simply exercise violence, who use it without restraint. He sees that Putin does that and he admires it.
- [15:53]
Sam Stein
And we have seen him take baby steps towards that here at home. Sam Stein. Mika read from the Wall Street Journal editorial. Really powerful, really strong, really. Right on. But I wanted to ask you about the last line, this idea that, well, if Trump were to sort of kowtow to Moscow here, he would pay a heavy political price, certainly he would in the west and Western capitals. But my question is, is that actually true here at home? This is a pressing question, but would he pay a political price from fellow Republicans, many of whom have sort of abandoned Ukraine as the years have go? Would he pay a political price? Would the American public at large polls suggest they do support Kyiv. We don't know how strongly they feel right now, multiple years into the war. What do you think?
- [16:37]
Mike Barnacle
Well, I go back and forth on this. On the one hand, I think it's undeniably true that the domestic politics around Ukraine has shifted dramatically. It used to be that there was widespread support, especially in the Republican Party. That's dissipated. Clearly, if you look at any public opinion survey, there's antipathy towards war, especially from Trump supporters and even in pockets of conservative media. Then again, it's not hard to imagine a scenario in which, let's say, some form of capitulation to Putin happens. And then over the next subsequent months, we continue to see images out of Ukraine of Russia violating, in terms of the agreement, of atrocities happening like the one we woke up to today, of bombings in Kyiv, of people really suffering. And it's not hard to imagine headlines constantly of how poor this peace negotiation actually was, of how much of a capitulation it was to Putin, and of the atrocities that have occurred because of what Trump has done. And in that case, you can easily see that this would be a political blunder for Trump domestically. But that's a longer term proposition, not a shorter term one. And so I'm not totally convinced about the Journal. Ian, if I could ask you about this deal that they've proposed, obviously Ukraine was never going to accept it, but is there any sort of fertile middle ground? And if you were to see Trump take Trump like demands of the Russia, so obviously not severe demands of the Russian side, but moderate demands of the Russian side, so that they could actually have some concessions, too.
- [18:08]
I
What would they be?
- [18:10]
Ian Brzezinski
I think Trump has the power, he has the leverage if he seeks to exercise it. And one could imagine an outcome in which the west demands of Russia accept a ceasefire, the current lines in which the west refuses to accept Russian sovereignty over the occupied territories, and in which the west backs up that step by deploying a robust deterrent force involving the United States in Ukraine to ensure military stability over the long term. We are capable of doing that. We have the resources to do that. It's just whether or not we have the leadership to exercise that power.
- [18:50]
Mika Brzezinski
Anne and Ian, I'd love to hear from both of you on this. Ann, you've written the book on autocracy, and Ian, you've spent a lot of time in Ukraine. You lived there for three years, helping the country establish defense policy. But Ann, if you could speak, just because I know who watches this show and I would love a little bit of a Ukraine 101 if I can, at this pivotal moment, if you could speak on who the Ukrainians are, what they stand for, and what they must be thinking right now.
- [19:27]
Anne Applebaum
So Ukraine is a nation that didn't have independence until 1991. It's a country that has since then fought really quite extraordinarily from the grassroots level, self organizing the whole time in order to create a flawed but ambitious democracy. The Ukrainians have repeatedly shown that they want to be part of the Western world, they want to be part of the democratic world, they want to be integrated into Europe, they want an alliance with the United States, they want open markets, they want free press. They don't want to be a dictatorship, they don't want to be a kleptocracy. They want to be ruled by people and not just by oligarchs. And this desire, actually it is this desire to be a democracy and to be part of the democratic world, that is that, that's really what it is that Putin hates. You know, of course Putin is a Russian imperialist and of course he seeks to recreate some kind of empire, but really what bothers him about Ukraine is that the Ukrainians succeeded, they succeeded in creating a democracy. And that's a very dangerous, that's a very dangerous, a very dangerous example to Russians. So when he sees, you know, street revolutions succeeding in Ukraine, what, hey, what he fears is a revolution like that happening in Russia. And his, this desire to crush Ukraine is a desire to crush the democratic world, but it's also a desire to show, to show everyone around the world that autocracy wins, democracy loses. People are watching this conflict in Venezuela, they're watching it in Iran. They're watching it all over the world, everywhere where people want to be, want to live freely. They're watching what happens in this conflict. And if the largest democracy on the planet allows Russia to win or appears to back Russia, that willit will dash the hopes and dash the, you know, ruin the imagination and ruin the future for millions of people.
- [21:35]
Mika Brzezinski
So, Ian, same question. And I just, I can never forget when the war broke out, when Zelensky and his generals, they got on Livestream, including the former president, and they said, we're fighting not just for our people and for our land, but for the safety of the world. If you could also take a stab at that question about the Ukrainian people who are often, I think, mistakenly underestimated.
- [22:01]
Ian Brzezinski
Here, Mika, you're bringing back some fond memories of mine when I was a volunteer in Ukraine in 93 and 94. It's actually when Ann and I first crossed paths in Kiev and when I left Ukraine. My memory is of a society that was probably and probably still is today Europe's most politically tolerant society. This is a peace loving people. They were only looking for good relations with Russia. They wanted to be part of the west, part of the eu, part of NATO. They were on the road to be a success story. But from day one, from day one of Ukrainian independence, they have faced a Russian effort to suborn them again. I'll never forget a meeting I had in Oberabergau, Germany, when I was in the Pentagon. Back then. We were meeting with the Russians just after Russia had become free from the Soviet Union, so to speak. And I was stuck in a bar hall with the deputy chief of staff of the Russian armed forces. And I had the temerity to ask him, you know, what is it like to lose your country, the Soviet Union, you served for 30, 35 years. And he said to me, looking me straight in the eye, and he pointed at me and said, you know, Ian, we Russians, we will endure this, but mark my words, we will get Ukraine back again. And I will never forget that. And from that day on, there's been a steady pattern of Russian efforts, political, military, covert, to suborn Ukraine, leveraging their economic power, their military might, disinformation and such. This is a battle Ukraine has been battling for 30 years and now it's escalated and it is a moment for the west to respond with the power it has to bring peace back to Europe and to ensure Ukraine's sovereignty.
- [23:50]
Mika Brzezinski
Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Ian Brzezinski check out his piece in the Hill. Trump risks becoming Neville Chamberlain to Putin's Hitler. Coming up on Morning Joe. The Senate's number two Democrat, Dick Durbin is our guest on the heels of his announcement that he won't be seeking reality election. Also ahead, what President Trump is saying about potentially slashing tariffs against China to de escalate that trade war. But first, Iran's foreign minister says the country has cautious optimism about indirect Talks with the U.S. nBC's Richard Engel standing by for us from Tehran with more on that. We're back in 90 seconds as we look at a beautiful sunrise from New York City.
- [24:51]
Richard Engel
Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.
- [24:58]
Mika Brzezinski
All the stories that we're covering are live and happening as we speak.
- [25:02]
Richard Engel
Watch your favorite shows live.
- [25:03]
Willie Geist
What's happening right now is a hostile.
- [25:06]
Mika Brzezinski
Takeover of the US Government.
- [25:08]
Richard Engel
Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app Sir David Frost. He gave us a front row seat to history.
- [25:25]
Joe Scarborough
What I'm interested in is conversation, not an interrogation.
- [25:28]
Mika Brzezinski
He was the person to be interviewed by.
- [25:30]
Richard Engel
Now we discover his most iconic interviews.
- [25:34]
Mika Brzezinski
Welcome please the Beatles, Muhammad Ali, Jane Fonda.
- [25:38]
Joe Scarborough
One of the greatest interviewers of all time.
- [25:39]
Richard Engel
MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series, David Frost Versus beginning Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [26:01]
Mika Brzezinski
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [26:06]
Richard Engel
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- [26:23]
Mika Brzezinski
Welcome back. Time now for a quick look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. One of the contenders for mayor of New York City received a boost of support yesterday. Adrian Adams, the City Council speaker was endorsed by three major unions and the state's attorney general, Letitia James, according to the New York Times. The move undercuts the perception that former Governor Andrew Cuomo has a lock on the race. The Times also notes that New York is the only major American city that has never elected a woman as mayor. Might be time to try the price of President Trump's meme coin surged more than 50% yesterday after the President announced the coin's top 220 holders would be invited to a dinner to Washington. How many conflicts of interest are we looking at here? Can we count? The spike makes the total worth of the Trump coin about $2.5 billion. So there you go. Next month's gala dinner will be held at President Trump's golf club outside Washington. The top 25 coin purchasers will also get a private reception with the president in a VIP tour of the White House. I don't even know where to begin.
- [27:40]
Sam Stein
Let's remember the Lincoln Bedroom scandals of the Clinton era. This is even that much more egregious. Where this is money for the meme coin that's going directly to Trump and his family. This is their family business. And they're using not just the golf course, but the White House. These VIP tours is part of that effort to raise funds. If this is something that, if a Democrat were to do, Republicans would be up in arms. There will, of course, be silence from them on Capitol Hill.
- [28:05]
Mika Brzezinski
So. And also, as you point this out, we're going to be talking with Anna Appelbaum about her piece, Kleptocracy, Inc. Which is right in line with this. And one more for you. Newly released surveillance video shows how a woman was able to sneak onto a flight to Paris last year without a boarding pass. Security cameras captured the suspect slipping by two gate agents at JFK airport and strolling toward the jet with a group of other passengers. According to court documents, the woman who had initially been turned away from a security checkpoint after she was unable to provide the proper documents. Delta crew members realized she was an unauthorized passenger while the plane was in the air and alerted French authorities. She has pleaded not guilty to criminal charges. So just FYI, you know, like when you're waiting for the flight and it's group one or pre borders and everybody crowds it, like if I'm sitting in the back of the plane, I am waiting across the hall, waiting for all the people on the front to. You can't cluster people. That's the reason why it is. You'll get on the plane.
- [29:13]
Sam Stein
Yeah. It is a small thing, but it's still a telling moment of the breakdown of societal rules, the way people crowd.
- [29:20]
Mika Brzezinski
You're gonna get on.
- [29:21]
Mike Barnacle
Right?
- [29:22]
Mika Brzezinski
Right. You have a seat. I'm sorry, I don't know.
- [29:25]
Joe Scarborough
How did she. I didn't fully understand how she got through security to begin with. If she didn't.
- [29:28]
Mika Brzezinski
I know.
- [29:29]
Joe Scarborough
Boarding pass. I gotta dig in a little more on that story.
- [29:31]
Mika Brzezinski
Okay. Alex says he does the clustering because he wants to get the overhead bag space.
- [29:35]
Joe Scarborough
Well, you're the problem, Alex. You are the problem.
- [29:37]
Mika Brzezinski
Okay, show him all of his makeup. And also, you know, what is it that he's bringing?
- [29:42]
Joe Scarborough
So we've been talking this morning about these negotiations in London about. About the war in Ukraine. There are also high stakes negotiations focusing on a new nuclear deal set to resume this weekend between the United States and Iran. Those discussions will take place in Oman, a country on the Arabian Peninsula that held a previous round of negotiations on April 12th. Saturday's expert level talks will be the third meeting of US and Iranian officials aimed at securing a new Deal. For more, let's bring in NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel. He is live from Tehran. Richard, what more can you tell us here, here?
- [30:18]
Willie Geist
Well, the Iranians, both on the governmental level and on a popular level, are taking these talks extraordinarily seriously. In the US they might not be getting a lot of attention. People are talking about Ukraine, the economy, the executive orders that President Trump is giving. But here, the only conversation that people are having is focused on these talks. People hope that they will be successful. People hope that they will end sanctions. And a lot of people are worried that if they fail, that there could be some sort of military action taken against Iran by Israel, by Israel and the United States together. And I think just the fact that I am here is part of that initiative. The government is trying to open up. We've been given quite extraordinary access to government officials. I was at the Iranian Parliament the other day talking to a ranking member of their National Security Committee. We've been able to walk around the streets without any kind of minders or escorts. A lot is happening here. There is a lot of change happening inside Iran that doesn't get out. A lot of these stereotypes people have about the Iranian people. They're not what you, what you see when you walk around on the streets here. There is a sophisticated culture that very much wants to engage with the world. You go to a coffee shop in Tehran, and not just in the wealthy areas, but anywhere in this city. And in many places, it looks like you could be in a coffee shop in New York City or any part of Western Europe. The problem is because of the sanctions, because of the impositions imposed on Iran, they are almost cut off from the world. They can't trade. They can't engage in any real cultural exchanges. People here can't travel easily outside the country. The other day I went to a technology park full of young entrepreneurs. They're calling it Tehran's Silicon Valley. And they're working on programming, they're working on AI, but it is all at this stage for domestic use. And they want to break out of this sanctions box and engage with the world. And they're hoping that these, that these negotiations will allow them to do that, but they could fall apart. The talks are centered on Iran's nuclear program. And Iran says, and has consistently says it is willing to allow in more inspectors. It is willing to get rid of some of its highly enriched uranium. It says it doesn't want to have a nuclear bomb and is willing to allow people to come in and check that. And prove that. But it does not want to give up its civilian nuclear program. It doesn't want to give up the potential to make nuclear power create radioactive isotopes. And that is the real sticking point because Israel, some in the United States, say as long as Iran has any kind of nuclear program and has the capacity to enrich uranium even at a low level, that it could accelerate that and create weapons grade uranium. So, so the Iranian people, the Iranian government want this deal to happen, but there is still a decent chance that it falls apart over this enrichment issue.
- [33:57]
Joe Scarborough
Long way to go. And we should note that even a Democratic senator, John Fetterman of Pennsylvania yesterday, in an interview with the Washington Free Beacon, said effectively that these negotiations are pointless. Senator Fetterman encouraging the president to strike Iranian nuclear facilities. That's a Democratic Senator. RICHARD I know you're there in Tehran reporting on these talks, but I do want to ask you about what's happening right now with Ukraine and Russia. With President Trump again leaning heavily in favor of Russia in a proposal to bring peace, to bring an end to this war, suggesting that Ukraine will have to hand over officially recognize Crimea as Russian territory, recognize Russia's war gains and block explicitly its membership into NATO. What do you make of what we've heard here and where do you see this headed?
- [34:48]
Willie Geist
So if you look at all the different negotiations that are happening right now between the Israelis and the Palestinians, between Ukraine and Russia, those are profoundly complicated, profoundly difficult cult negotiations, because in both sides, both of those cases, people are debating the future of their country, who gets to own what kind of territory. The Israelis and Palestinians want each other's territory. They want each other's land and cite many religious texts to justify that position. The Russians under Vladimir Putin believe that Ukraine doesn't exist, shouldn't exist. And now the Russians want to keep 20% or potentially more of Ukraine's territory and its people. This deal is much more simple. There was a it's all about nuclear weapons, it's all about inspections, it's all about enrichment. They had a deal under the Obama administration that President Trump tore up. So all they would really need to do here is find a new version of the old deal. And that's what people in Iran hope will happen. And they are pinning their hopes on it. The government is pinning their hopes on it. But of course, they're also watching what is happening in Ukraine. The people are watching what is happening in Ukraine. And as you said earlier, if it seems like the United States is favoring a dictator, giving in to the aggressor that depresses people in Iran, that depresses people around the world who worry that the United States is not standing up for democratic values anymore, is not standing up for the underdogs fighting against aggressor, but is standing up for those in power, those with vested interests, those who take territory by force. And that is certainly the way it's seen from here. That is the way it is being seen in Ukraine. I've been in Ukraine throughout much of the conflict there. And since President Trump returned to office in his second term, Ukrainians feel abandoned. They feel a sense of whiplash. What happened? Many Ukrainians ask me, what did they do wrong to have the United States turn on them and feed them to Russia?
- [37:04]
Joe Scarborough
And even as you're speaking, we're watching images, Richard, of bombs falling this morning in Kyiv in the midst of peace talks. NBC's Richard Engel, who has covered the Ukrainian war extensively, live this morning in Tehran for us. Richard, thanks so much as always. We appreciate it. And Mika, just again, I'll say President Zelensky in reaction to this proposal saying, quote, there is nothing to talk about.
- [37:26]
Mika Brzezinski
Okay, so coming up, we're going to talk about Anne Applebaum's Peace in the Atlantic. Kind of frame it for you right here. On April 4, the stock market crashed and four service members were killed during a training accident in Lithuania. So where did Trump choose to go on that day? The answer is the thesis of Anne's Peace. Kleptocracy, Inc. We'll be right back.
- [37:51]
Richard Engel
MSNBC presents Main Justice. Each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice.
- [38:03]
Anne Applebaum
The administration doesn't necessarily want to be.
- [38:05]
Joe Scarborough
Questioned on any of its policy. I think what we are seeing is.
- [38:09]
Sam Stein
Project 2025 in action. This is it coming to fruition.
- [38:14]
Richard Engel
Main Justice. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts for ad free listening and bonus content.
- [38:21]
Joe Scarborough
Citizens, since we each upgraded to Xfinity in our homes, the WI Fi has been booming. It's fair to say our town has officially become a boom town.
- [38:30]
Anne Applebaum
Mayor, will I be able to drop into multiplayer gaming battles with low lag?
- [38:34]
Joe Scarborough
The lag won't be an issue, but your questionable skills may be.
- [38:37]
Anne Applebaum
And what if I have hundreds of.
- [38:39]
Willie Geist
Devices on the WI Fi?
- [38:40]
I
Purely hypothetical.
- [38:41]
Joe Scarborough
Seems like a lot, but sure, hundreds of devices all booming together with the Xfinity Gateway. Yes, friends and neighbors, with Xfinity, the WI Fi is booming. Restrictions apply. Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
- [38:52]
Willie Geist
This week on My podcast, why Is this Happening? History professor and author of America A.
- [38:57]
Richard Engel
New History of the New World, Greg Grandin.
- [39:00]
Sam Stein
Every wealthy country went through some restructuring to deal with changes in the global economy, competition, rising oil prices. You know, every rich country in Europe.
- [39:10]
Richard Engel
No other country so gleefully assaulted the.
- [39:13]
Sam Stein
Institutions that could have ameliorated that restructuring.
- [39:16]
Richard Engel
As did the United States.
- [39:18]
Joe Scarborough
That's this week on why is this Happening?
- [39:20]
Willie Geist
Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now.
- [39:22]
Joe Scarborough
And follow.
- [39:26]
Mika Brzezinski
Note. I just found out about Sam Stein.
- [39:28]
Joe Scarborough
Oh, no, this is good. This now. What?
- [39:31]
Mika Brzezinski
It's not good if he's in Zoom Zone 4 at the airport waiting for a flight.
- [39:35]
Joe Scarborough
No.
- [39:35]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, he's the first one in line.
- [39:40]
Mike Barnacle
That's not exactly true.
- [39:42]
Mika Brzezinski
No, it is.
- [39:42]
Mike Barnacle
It's worse. It's worse.
- [39:44]
Mika Brzezinski
What? What's worse than that?
- [39:46]
Mike Barnacle
I aggressively jump the zones. If I'm on zones four, I'm moving into zone two and I'm just putting my head down like that French woman and getting in there.
- [39:56]
Joe Scarborough
That's where Samstein stole.
- [39:58]
Mike Barnacle
She stole my move. Okay, let's just be clear.
- [40:01]
Mika Brzezinski
You have to have the proper size bags. Just two.
- [40:04]
Mike Barnacle
Well, I have the proper size bags.
- [40:06]
Mika Brzezinski
Everybody can fit their bags and everybody will get on. Just follow the freaking rules. I don't get it. These people, Sam, that's. I'm just very disappointed. We move on now and we raise the bar and we go back to the great Ann Applebaum. You're writing about Trump's hosting of a Saudi backed golf tournament while the stock market was plummeting earlier this month. The piece is entitled Kleptocracy Inc. And in it you write, in part, once upon a time, and not even that long ago, blatant conflicts of interest, especially involving foreign entities, were something presidents sought to avoid. No previous inhabitant of the White House would have wanted to be seen doing personal business with companies from countries that seek to influence American foreign policy. During Trump's first term, the court system largely blew off his commercial entanglements. Now he not only does business with foreign as well as domestic companies that have direct interest in his policies, he advertises and celebrates them. We know the identities of the golf tournament sponsors not because investigative journalists burrow deep into secret contracts, but because they appear on official websites and were displayed on a billboard observed by the New York Times at his golf course. Both the website and the billboard would have been scandals in any previous administration if they are hardly remarked upon now. That's because Trump's behavior is such a symptom of something Much larger. We are living through a revolutionary change, a broad shift away from the transparency and accountability mandated by most modern democracies and toward the opaque habits and corrupt practices of the autocratic world. So annoying. Take us a step further into this and what are the dangers here? Because it appears when you have these blaring signs, instead of doing things quietly, you are also ignoring the American people to the autocracy in the making that is happening before their eyes.
- [42:20]
Anne Applebaum
You know, Mika, a few minutes ago you asked me about Trump's strange admiration for Vladimir Putin. You know, and perhaps the deeper affiliation goes back 30 years into Trump's business practices. You know, he's been involved in an industry, the real estate industry, that relied on secret Russian money coming through anonymous bank accounts, buying anonymous properties in his businesses for many years. He's been dealing in that world, in the kleptocratic financial world, his whole life. In his first term, he was restrained by people around him by perhaps by some ongoing anxiety about legality. He didn't bring all of those practices, some of them, not all of them, but he didn't bring all of those practices into the White House. Now he clearly feels he can do whatever he wants. He's openly taking money from the Saudi backers of golf tournaments taking place at his golf course. You had earlier in this program a story about how his cryptocurrency money is accepting so called investments from people. He then invites those investors to the White House. So he's using his position in the government to make money for himself and for his family personally. And of course, he set an example that's being followed by a whole legion of people around him. I mean, start with Elon Musk. I mean, Elon Musk is somebody who has been involved in firing people and changing the policy at guns, government agencies that regulate his own companies or that subsidize his own companies. So he has such a profound conflict of interest that it's hard even to know what to call this. If you run a company and you get to decide what happens to the regulatory agency that regulates you, then what are you? I mean, what you are is an oligarch. That's what, that's the political system in Russia that created massive webs of conflicts of interest and corruption. And I think it's also important to remember where those systems end. They end with people being made poorer. The system is rigged, the economy is altered so that it benefits people in power, so that it benefits people who are close to power. And it's not good for the rest of us.
- [44:44]
Joe Scarborough
And so, Ann, part of this plan that this administration and Donald Trump himself have sort of been running in the last several months is to clear out any oversight. So fire the watchdogs, fire the people who typically, under a regular administration would be on this stuff and say, hang on a second, you can't do that. You can't sell and personally profit from Bitcoin and then invite all the people to incentivize them, invite them to the White House, to special ceremonies at your golf clubs and to meet you at VIP events. So is that not part of what he was doing when he was firing? Not, you know, not just the tens of thousands of guys, employees, the rank and file, but these people whose job it was to watch exactly the kind of practices you're talking about.
- [45:27]
Anne Applebaum
Yeah. In one night of the long knives, at the very beginning of the administration, they fired 17 government inspectors. And these are exactly those people. These are the people whose job it was to make sure there are no conflicts of interest, to make sure there's no corruption. You know, they talk a lot about fraud and wage. But there were systems in the government designed to block fraud, to block exactly this kind of double dealing, and Trump has dismantled them. I mean, I would say he's also. His administration has also announced that it won't enforce other government laws that are designed to block these kinds of practices. There's something called the Corporate Transparency Act. They're not going to enforce that. There's something called the Foreign Bribery act that prevents American and other companies from bribing foreign companies from paying bribes, and they're not going to enforce that either. So they're dismantling a whole apparatus of. It's not just regulation. It's the law of laws that were designed that were put in place in order to prevent fraud and kleptocracy from spreading inside our political system.
- [46:34]
Mika Brzezinski
You can catch more on Ann's argument here about what's happening in the Atlantic. Her piece is entitled Kleptocracy, Inc. And, Anne, I just want to circle back to the conversation we were having about Ukraine with the. All the comments that we have been covering from the president, the vice president, and what is happening right now in this war. And my brother mentioned earlier about Trump's approach to Russia. And I want to ask you, is it appeasement? Or how would you describe it? Because to an extent, Ian was saying that Biden, Biden, you know, had an approach to this war that obviously was supporting Ukraine, supporting the people who are fighting for the safety of the world. And Trump's is very different. And how would you describe it? Is it weaker, as Ian contended? And is it appeasement?
- [47:38]
Anne Applebaum
You could use the word appeasement. You could use weakness. You could also begin to ask, is this really about business deals? Are there people around Trump who are expecting some kind of financial benefit from a relationship with Russia? Is this really about, you know, creating, you know, another lawless zone of relationships between America and Russia? We don't know. And actually, the fact that we don't know, the fact that this is all hidden, the fact that it's not clear what Trump's motives are, I mean, that's already a sign of autocratic behavior. You know, in democracies, your leadership is transparent. We knew what Joe Biden wanted in Ukraine. You know, when he said it, we knew what he meant. You know, in the case of Trump, we don't really know what his motives are. We don't know even what it means when they say we're going to walk away. There's so much opacity and so much lack of clarity. And the lack of clarity is deeply connected to these practices that we're seeing at home. This, you know, conflicts of interest, double dealing, you know, the relationships between people, people in the, in the administration and private business. We don't really know for whom they're acting. Are they acting in the interests of the American people or are they acting in their own interests?
- [48:58]
Mika Brzezinski
Staff writer for the Atlantic, Anne Applebaum, thank you very much. It is always great to have you on the show. We really appreciate it. And coming up, round one of the NFL draft begins tonight in Wisconsin. And one of our next guest is asking why anyone watches it. As he argues the event is boring as hell.
- [49:18]
Joe Scarborough
Wow.
- [49:18]
Sam Stein
There we go.
- [49:19]
Mika Brzezinski
Okay, I didn't write this. New York Magazine's Will Leach joins us to explain his words ahead on Morning Joe.
- [49:41]
Joe Scarborough
It's a beautiful live picture of New York City. Another great day. It's been a good weather week. Don't want to jinx it.
- [49:46]
Sam Stein
Although we're getting smoke from New Jersey wildfires later today.
- [49:49]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, we do have the wildfires. Remember that last year. So not in New York, but at Lambeau Field. Round one of the NFL draft is tonight in Green Bay, Wisconsin. How cool is that? Tennessee Titans on the clock as we speak. They have the first pick expected to take Miami quarterback Cam Ward. Would be a shock if they don't take him at this point, but not a lot of consensus on what could happen after that. Questions swirling about how many quarterbacks will be Taken in the first round, along with which teams are expected to take some big swings. Joining us now, contributing editor at New York magazine, Will Leach, and of course, MSNBC contributor, our good friend Mike Barnacle at the table. He's here as well. So will Cam Warren's going to go one, feels like Travis Hunter, definitely going to go two to Cleveland, probably the most talented player in the draft. Then at 3, we've been talking, I'm a Giants fan. Looks like they're not going to go quarterback. There they go, Abdul Carter at Penn State. Are you expecting any big surprises? Where do you think Shador Sanders from Colorado ends up? A lot of questions this morning.
- [50:51]
I
Yeah, Sanders in particular, you know, obviously with his father being Deion Sanders and the Colorado just retired his number. I mean, like, he's become this, like, very controversial figure across the board. He seems to be falling. Actually, you know, that's always one of the stories of in the NFL draft is what player has been invited and gets stuck in the green room and looking sad all evening. That's always, I think, Aaron. That happened Aaron Rodgers, actually, many years ago. So, you know, that's always a subplot to a lot of these drafts. And Sanders could be that guy tonight, which obviously considering his father, considering his kind of ubiquity, the fact that he could fall that far is pretty surprising because he may have been, along with Travis Hunter, one of the most famous players in college football last year.
- [51:30]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, you're hearing a lot about the Steelers. I keep seeing at the 21st pick, they need a quarterback. And if Shador Sanders falls that far, he could make it to the Steelers.
- [51:38]
Sam Stein
Yeah, the other rumor, that the Saints, their quarterback, David Carr, got hurt, they pick at 9, Sidor Sanders might be an option for them. Will, one thing about the NFL draft, we were just talking about it, it's become such an event with weeks and months of coverage, and I think sometimes it borders on the absurd. So, for instance, the Patriots, Patriots, my team, pick fourth. Will Campbell is rumored to be their selection offensive lineman from lsu. But a concern that came up is during his draft day, during his combine, during his measurements, his arms are an inch shorter than is considered ideal for that position. That's a true thing. His arms are considered an inch too short for that position. And that's why his draft stock might be falling. That is, to me, the NFL draft in a nutshell.
- [52:25]
I
Who among us has not watched the NFL game and thought, oh, if only his arms were an inch longer, he would have been able to make that play? Of course, you can tell that with the naked eye all the time. It is, you know, because also these players, this has been going on for months, right? They're being measured, they're being interviewed. That's actually become a big thing with the NFL draft is trying the general managers trying to get into the mind of players and thinking if they can figure out something about who they're going to be ten years from now and like a seven minute interview after they've been jumping and running for a couple of hours, it really is kind of an absurd process because that kind of speaks to the thing of the NFL draft. It's a whole bunch of anticipation, a whole bunch of research for a very small moment that after they're drafted, they're just another guy on the roster. Like the excite the excitement and interest level that we have with these players now, once they actually have to go through the dirty business of being on a roster and being an NFL player, then they're just another person. Then we just go back to treating them like we treat every football player. In a lot of ways. This is the most we'll think about any of these players down the line.
- [53:24]
Joe Scarborough
So will you have a reputation of having great talent and great credibility? We've been talking about the NFL draft.
- [53:30]
Ian Brzezinski
This morning and all the personnel and.
- [53:32]
Joe Scarborough
Whether someone's arms aren't an inch longer or an inch shorter or whatever. So tell me the truth when I ask you this question.
- [53:38]
Anne Applebaum
Do you ever have to tape your.
- [53:40]
Joe Scarborough
Eyelids open in listening and talking about the NFL draft?
- [53:44]
I
Oh goodness, yeah. Very Clockwork Orange. Like it's certainly there are viewers that has felt that way. And I said, listen, I'm not here to harsh anyone's mellow. If you really want to sit and watch 12 hours of the reciting, basically a long slow read of an Excel document is basically what the NFL draft, whatever you do, you and I understand there's excitement for the NFL draft. You want to see my. I'm an Arizona Cardinals fan. I'm curious to see who they pick tonight. But there is something about the anticipation of this. You know, I think a lot of it is because the NFL, you know, the NFL obviously is the signature but kind of almost the most popular thing in public in American entertainment. It really is the only time we see them from the super bowl until training camp options. This is the only real time where everyone gets the shield is out there. The NFL is the center of the world. I kind of related in my, in my article for New York magazine. It's almost like a house, an Old house ad in the newspaper or like a promotion for future programming on a television show. But the idea that the act itself. I mean, I'm sorry to tell everyone, but there will, in fact be no actual football played at Lambeau Field tonight. They will be outside of there and they'll be. And listen, they will make a big deal out of this. And there are moments I can get excited, but people seem to boo Roger Goodell less than they used to. Taking part of the fun out of it right there. So I think that certainly I'm not against football. People love football. I love football. There's just something about this. This used to be done by guys in fedoras in trench coats writing names on a chalkboard. And no one paid attention to it. It was just in the newspaper the next day. The idea that now this is more of an activity because we hype it so much. It's still just 12 hours of guys, very big guys and stuffed into suits reading names off cards for, again, like 12 hours.
- [55:29]
Mike Barnacle
Yeah, will Sam Stein here. My dad and I used to watch the draft and we'd have this ongoing joke about mel Kuiper, the ESPN draft guru. I think it goes by Dr. Mel Kuiper. And we say, what does Mel do for the other 364 days? Where do they put him? Do they just take him out for this day? But now the draft has become actually, you know, almost like a four or five month process where you're evaluating these players and I might. And I want you to play with this theory. My theory is that it's more about the psychology of the fans, because if you're a Jets fan for. And now increasingly, if you're a Giants fan, like myself and Willie, you're just waiting for your team to screw it all up, to take a pick that ends up being a disaster, or to take a good player and then trading him a couple years later. And so now we watch these moments as much for the players coming up and shaking hands with Goodell as for the fans, as you see right there. And mostly for the jets fans pulling their hair out when they make a selection. That's why I think we watch this is because we want to participate in this great psychological experiment of fandom.
- [56:33]
I
Yes. And also remember, a lot of investment happens at the end of the season. Once you realize, oh, we're not making the playoffs, we're not very good this year, then you spend the last two months kind of rooting for your team to lose so they can get a higher draft pick. So there's actually the investment of like negative fan engagement in a way that comes to this too, but I think that's a part of it too, is that like we get again, another thing we get so fired up for is there's just not a lot of hope in the end. And the NFL draft can represent hope. It can represent the promise of a much better future than our sad present, which I think we can all kind of relate to a certain way. But the problem is reality does come in eventually. They do make the bad draft pick and they do have to trade away again a couple years. And there's a reason that, again, I'm an Arizona Cardinals fan, I can relate to this suggestion. Giants fans, there's a reason that we always pick pretty high. It's because not very good. So a lot of ways this is the one time, there have been been times in the past, I'm like, oh, this is the one time anyone even looks at the Arizona Cardinals logo. At least we're having our moment to shine. So I think that's now the draft too. But that's kind of a negative corollary. They're like, great, here's our great moment. We were bad enough last year that we're coming on early in the programming tonight.
- [57:37]
Joe Scarborough
Well, it may well be boring as hell to quote you the title of your piece, but we know millions of people will be watching and hundreds of thousands will be treating it like a music festival at Lambeau. It'll be a big deal. Contributing editor at New York Magazine. Except for a man with perfect length arms. Yeah, Will Leach. He's got a nice. He's got a nice first punch to him. Will. Thanks. Will's latest piece available to read now online.
- [58:01]
Richard Engel
Sir David Frost. He gave us a front row seat to history.
- [58:05]
Joe Scarborough
What I'm interested in is conversation, not an interrogation.
- [58:09]
Mika Brzezinski
He was the person to be interviewed by.
- [58:11]
Richard Engel
Now we discover his most iconic interviews.
- [58:14]
I
Welcome, please.
- [58:15]
Mika Brzezinski
The Beatles, Mohammed Ali, Jane Fonda.
- [58:18]
Richard Engel
One of the greatest interviews of all time. MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series David Frost Versus, beginning Sunday at 9pM Eastern on MSNBC.