Mika Brzezinski (3:15)

Yeah, that's right. It was our second interview, actually, with the president for this cover story that's out in the Atlantic today. And we were called for the second interview, which was the only one in the Oval Office, at the absolute last minute. The story had actually already gone to press. Michael Scheer and I, who were writing the story, were called in. And then an aide to the president said, oh, and by the way, you know, Donald Trump says that if Jeff Goldberg would like to join, he is welcome to. So the three of us went in and we didn't know what to expect because, of course, the president has attacked all three of us by name on social media, reserving a lot of his ire in particular for Jeff, in part most recently because of the signal gate. But yes, we went in, we were promised 20 minutes, and we sat and interviewed President Trump for an hour.

Joe Scarborough (4:10)

That sounds about right. So we'll get to the news of it all. But provide us color. What was it like when Jeffrey got into the White House with the president?

Mika Brzezinski (4:23)

So, you know, as you know, Joe, Donald Trump is someone who often is trying to win the minute, the hour, the day, the person directly in front of him. And that afternoon, Jeff Goldberg, my boss, the editor in chief of the Atlantic, was one of the people directly in front of him. And the president was the version of himself that can be incredibly charismatic and charming. And he was very much oriented. You know, as Jeff, myself, my colleague and co author Michael Shearer. But Donald Trump was very much oriented towards Jeff Goldberg, trying to win him over, trying to get him to understand about his presidency, about his plan. And I think, you know, people would be surprised based on everything Donald Trump has said publicly about all of us. But this particular interaction was a respectful one.

Joe Scarborough (5:22)

Yeah. Well, it's fascinating. But you are so right. You talk to most anybody in the press that certainly, you know, we all know it here, that you've got what the president will say on X, what the president will say publicly. And then if he's trying to make points, then it'll be, it'll be quite different interaction. We're going to get to all the details and the timing. We're so grateful for you being with us this morning because the timing is going to be fascinating to see what his take is. The president's take is right now, especially with some of the poll numbers that came out this weekend. And we're going to get to these poll numbers. They are, Jonathan, they are, they are low. They are historically low. The White House's opinion is, you know what, we'd prefer good polls to bad polls. But we did a lot in the first 100 days. We secured the border, we shook up the international trade deal. The next three, the next 100 days we believe we're going to have, you know, trade deals and budget deals and peace deals and all this will turn around. That's sort of their attitude. So we'll, we'll get to these numbers. I find there's so much that's fascinating about these numbers and it's not really just the president's numbers. It's also numbers on issues, also the Democrats numbers. I mean, it's, it's, this is, this is not, this is bad news for the president, but it's not like any Democrat reading these polls and what Americans think about Democrats are going to be striking up a verse of Happy Days are here again for the Democratic Party. And I think you're starting the sense that where you have Governor Pritzer going out lambasting the Democrats this past weekend as do nothing Democrat. So it's a, it is a, it's a situation where, where the polling is very bad for the president, very bad on the issues, very bad for Republicans in generic polls and also not so great for Democrats.

Jonathan Lemire (7:26)

Yeah, we're starting to see some more energy on the Democratic side. We've noted the Bernie Sanders AOC tour and the big crowds that's gathering. But there's still a sense of sort of internal dissension and a lot of finger pointing post November. What went wrong then? But also more importantly, what is our message now? And we're seeing no sense of agreement on that. And more and more Democrats.

Joe Scarborough (7:48)

And the brand. And the brand. If you look at these numbers again, I understand the headline there's no doubt the headline is Donald Trump's low numbers here and they are historically low. Again, though, it's fascinating that you see the energy out there. But you look at these polls and you also see that the Democrats, it's not just about infighting. The Democratic brand remains pretty low and suggests that they've got a tremendous opportunity to walk through this door that's opening up for them. I'm not sure if they know how to do it yet.

Jonathan Lemire (8:23)

Yeah, I talked to a prominent Democrat over the weekend who said to me, I'm not sure what we stand for right now. I'm not sure what this party is. It can't just be opposing Donald Trump. And they've been successful at that. We'll get into that in a moment. But there is, as you said, there is an opportunity. But there's also sort of real dissent here, confusion as to just what should be the message, what should be the brand, what should be their identity going forward. But I think there is a sense of Democrats now, they found their footing in terms of resisting Donald Trump, in part because of what Donald Trump has done himself. And we're seeing these poll numbers. Tomorrow marks 100 days for Trump in office and he is ringing that in with some very low marks. Let's go through some of them, starting with a new ABC News Washington Post poll which finds just that, 39% of Americans approve of the way Trump is doing his job. That's compared to 55% who disapprove back in February. Mind you, Those numbers were 45% positive and 53% negative. Trump's approval rating in this poll is lower than any past President at the 100 day mark of their first or second term. So this is historically low for President Trump. According to the Washington Post, Trump has seen a decline of 10 points among white people without a college degree, who, of course, are a key part of his political coalition. Trump's also down 13 points among adults who are under the age of 30. The post also notes that Trump is underwater among independents, a group that he just narrowly lost back in November. Among that voting bloc, 33% approve of his job handling, while 58% disapprove. Let's dive into the issues now. Some of the top ones, more than three out of four voters oppose reducing federal funding for medical research. Seven in 10 oppose the administration's efforts to increase the government's role in how private universities operate. Two thirds of voters oppose Trump's efforts to end birthright citizenship. And more than six in 10 oppose shutting down the Education Department cutting back environmental regulations and freezing foreign aid that provides food and health care to poor countries. Those are all, of course, we've seen major parts of the first hundred days. But overall, voters said they trust Trump more than Democrats in Congress when it comes to handling the country's main problems. When it comes to the economy, Trump's approval stands at 39% who approve, versus 61% who disapprove. Just two months ago, before announcing his sweeping tariff policy, 45% approved while 53% disapproved. It's worth noting that President Biden's economic approval rating was 37% about a year ago. Another poll finds that President Trump is underwater as he approaches his 100th day in office. According to the latest New York Times Siena College poll, 42% of voters approve of the job Trump is doing, while 54% disapprove. Those numbers are even more troubling. Among independents, just 29% approve, while 66 disapprove. Looking at specific issues in this poll, the president's pursuit of widespread tariffs, as opposed to 55% of voters and 63% of independents, Trump is also underwater on the issues of immigration, managing the federal government, the economy, trade, the Russia, Ukraine war, and the case involving Kilmar Abrego Garcia. And if the 2026 midterms were held today, voters would back the Democrat over the Republican candidate in their district by seven points. According to a new Fox News poll of registered voters, Democrats led Republicans 49% to 42% on the congressional generic ballot. Those results are similar to April 2017, which of course during Trump's first term in office and are the largest lead for Democrats since October of 2018. Democrats are mostly ahead due to being preferred by voters under the age of 30, 60% to 33% and by independents by 2 to 1 margin, 40% to 18%. Joe, we also there's a series of polls that came out this week and one from Reuters had Trump's approval rating down to just 37%. But it is a taken together, it is a snapshot here at the 100 day mark, 100 day mark, that the Trump administration and we've talked to senior officials who thought they really started strong, they were getting out there, getting their agenda done, they liked where they were and they've seen here, particularly in the last month to six weeks, on issues, issues that are supposed to be his strengths, immigration and then namely the economy. He's taken real hits and now he's historically underwater.

Joe Scarborough (13:09)

And you've talked about this in your reporting in the White House, you've talked about the fact that they felt like everything was going their way. That signal gate was really sort of a switch and then got hit by a series of things that have just cumulatively added up, of course, got the stock market that's gone down. They will say, well, it's up to 40,000 now. Nasdaq's had, you know, better April. But again, a lot of, a lot of things that have been hitting over the past couple of weeks. And Jim Vande, these numbers there are not outliers. You have the Washington Post, he's at 39%. The AP, the president's the 39%. Pew, the president's at 40%. Reuters, he's down to 37%. So very bad news for the president. You also look at the generic ballot test from Fox News. Looks like that's very bad news for Republicans. And then, Jim, then though you the same poll that shows Democrats are up at the generic ballot test shows the Democrats, the brand is as low as ever as far as approval ratings. And then on the economy where Donald Trump is doing worse than he's ever done before, John, just read that the Democrats are a minus seven against Donald Trump on who Americans trust more on the economy. So there's a lot to sort through there for Donald Trump, for Republicans and the Democrats. What stands out to you?

Jim VandeHei (14:55)

Well, first off, if it's one poll, you can say it's anomaly. You cited about six of them. So you can assume that the general direction is is correct. The fact that Democrats are a hot mess, I don't think is new. They are a hot mess. They will be a hot mess until they have some levers of power. They don't have the House, they don't have the Senate, they don't have the White House. They're just, they don't have a lot of support among CEOs right now. And that's usually the reality of a team that's been wiped out in an election. So I'd sort of put that on one side. If I'm Trump and I'm President Trump, I'd be really worried, right, that if in a short period of time on the issues where you were strongest, the economy and immigration, you're seeing a massive dip. And what should be even more troubling is that directionally, if you really dig into those polls, the American people support what he's trying to do on immigration and in theory support what he's trying to do on trade. They don't like the Chaos. They don't like the absence of due process. And so I don't think it was actually Signalgate that sort of turned things internally. It was very much the tariff fight because the entire public dialogue has been about companies that are now confused thinking about not hiring people, some sporadic layoffs, and a lot of predictions that we are in a recession or headed into a recession and that inflation could come along with that. That's always what troubles voters the most. And if he can't pull a rabbit out of the hat and somehow with all those companies that he's imposed tariffs on strike deals relatively quickly in a pretty orderly process, it's going to be really, really hard to reverse the economic effect of that. There's not a single company that anybody is talking to that is not talk. Jobs, cutting jobs and dealing with mass uncertainty throughout the year. That's a bad mood for corporate America to be in because these decisions take a long time to put in motion and a long time to reverse. And so they know they've got to get these tariff deals right. And there's a lot of concern internally, a lot more than is let out into the public about how they've handled this. They know this was a problem of their own making. There was a different way to handle the tariffs, a different way to handle China and now they're having to scramble to do a bunch of deals and they don't have great infrastructure in place to do multiple deals simultaneously.

Joe Scarborough (17:13)

Ashley, what did, what did you learn in your interview with the President regarding tariffs, the economy and also as Jim pointed to the view among many Americans that, that it's chaotic inside the White House.

Mika Brzezinski (17:31)

So on tariffs in particular, we asked the President about this idea on Wall street of a so called put putt, which is a sense that there is basically a red line that the President, you know, cannot stomach the economy falling below. And that could be a number of things. That could be the devaluation of the dollar, that could be markets plummeting, that could be the threat of a recession or a recession. That could be the bond market. And the idea is that if, you know, if something like this happens or is about to happen, the President will pull back on what he plans to do with. And this idea is sort of reassuring to Wall street because they believe that it shows like what happened last time will happen again when this 90 day pause is up, that he won't actually crater the economy in his effort for tariffs. And what the President said essentially was no, there is no red line for me. There is no certain Number I pay a little bit of attention to that. But he said, you know, this is something, tariffs, the idea, and you've heard him talk about it, that America is getting a bad deal, that America is getting taken advantage of. This is something I have believed in my gut for 35 to 40 years. And there is no sort of, you know, clear thing where if it happens, I will pull back. Now, again, this is what he said to us in the interview. This doesn't actually mean that this is what he will do if there is a threat of a recession or if prices are going up because of his tariffs. But in this moment, when we put it to him quite clearly, this is what he said.

Joe Scarborough (19:08)

Yeah. And I mean, you're exactly right. He's believed this for 35, 40 years. It has been one of the driving, his driving beliefs and the economy that we are constantly getting ripped off. So let's keep digging into these polls and bringing right now the president of the progressive public opinion research firm Impact Research, Molly Murphy. Molly, thank you so much for being with us. We've talked about, obviously you poll for Democrats, so feel free to jump in and talk about Democrats and how they still are upside down regardless of the bad news for Donald Trump. But I wanted to start by talking about, you know, we talked about democracy. We talked all these things during the campaign. We talked about these general concepts, we talked about other issues. And afterwards, I'm speaking just for us in the media. We were lectured, you guys, you didn't understand. It was the price of butter, it was the price of eggs. So we're sitting here talking about all of these things that are driving the president's poll numbers down, including Arroyo Garcia. He's, he's upside down significantly on, on, on that issue. He's upside down on so many other issues. But I wonder how much is it, I mean, the economy, the same thing that at the end drove Joe Biden's numbers out and, and may Kamala Harris winning the election.

Molly Murphy (20:39)

I think it is, it starts with the economy. Other issues then can pile onto it, but it really is the economy. Voters approval of the economy has not improved a single tick since he took office. And that alone is not enough to necessarily drive down his approval ratings on the issue. Voters are aware that it takes time, that these problems were deep. A lot of the voters who especially took a chance on him hadn't supported him in the past. They were really focused on this. They're willing to give new presidents a chance here. But the problem with what is driving down Donald Trump's numbers right now are the things he owns in this economy. So some of the numbers that you haven't run through that were in part of these polls to me is the why of why did these numbers go down, especially on the economy, especially on dealing with trade. You did show 55% of Americans oppose the tariffs, 72% of Americans think we are headed towards a recession. But the end of that sentence is significant here due to Trump's policies. So it's ownership of that. It is not something that he happens to be in the White House. If it happens, it is because of his policies. 50% of Americans say that they are worse off because of Trump's economic policies right now. And so if this was just the economy he inherited, I would suspect that his numbers might have a little bit more resilience instead of seeing this rapid decline that we've seen. Now, the other things you pointed out certainly are not helpful to him in this, but I look at things like bypassing Congress, ignoring the courts, the way he's handling the tumult and chaos as almost like a secondary offense. It's a seatbelt law. If everything else is going really well, people are going to forgive some of the process of how it happens. But if they are not happy with that core, the price of butter, the price of eggs, what they think the future holds for them, all of a sudden, those things, things serve as a bit of a pylon.

Joe Scarborough (22:28)

Yeah. And you know, Jonathan, that is such a great point. These issues that whether you talk about the rule of law, the president appearing to be defiant to courts, you look at Abrego Garcia, you look at a lot of other things that have happened over the first 100 days, and that's showing up in polls as well. Americans very concerned about the rule of law, very concerned about judges orders being followed. But as Molly said, that is sort of a pile on to the underlying it's the economy stupid approach that, you know, we've heard about since James Carville.

Jonathan Lemire (23:14)

Right. These are inherently American values and beliefs. And we're seeing these polls suggest that there's some anger that they're being violated, but that perhaps that would have taken a backseat were the economy humming along. It's such a cliche, but it's true. Most voters, it's kitchen table issues first and foremost. And then we go from there. And that's where Trump, who was elected, let's remind everyone, elected to deal with that. And he's falling short, at least for these first hundred days. So, Molly, let's flip this a little bit here and talk about where the Democrats are. The polling suggests that though that generic ballot, yes, they'd be favored over Republicans in a midterm election. But there's still not a lot of positivity around the brand right now about its identity coming off of the election defeat in November and this search for what they stand for. Now, what are you seeing as you look over these numbers?

Molly Murphy (24:05)

Yeah, I mean, I see the same warning signs for Democrats. And I do think Jim's point is well taken. And we've seen it after any losing election, the party that has lost does sort of have the in the wilderness period as voters, as the party as, you know, sort of everyone takes a beat and considers the implications of what's just happened. So to some degree, I think that there is a normalcy to this low point. And some of the numbers are also driven by Democrats themselves being critical of the party, which you do see happen after a loss. But some of the pieces underneath it that I think are important to be mindful of is that 7 point deficit. Despite the president's overall weakened approval rating on the economy in handling the most important issues facing the country, 69% of Americans also don't believe that Democrats are in touch with the issues facing their lives. And really the brand right now is one that stands in opposition to Donald Trump, but not necessarily why? If you want to stand against the president, if you want to stand against the opposition party, you should have a fairly clear vision statement for why are these things bad and what comes next. What do you get if you in the generic context, if you in the midterms put your faith in Democrats. Now, I think this is also it's hard to rebrand an entire party. You've got different individual Democrats out there who are kind of staking this out. And I think in the time you're going to see more and more, you know, sort of galvanizing behind some of these leaders. Coming through.

Joe Scarborough (25:33)

All right. President of Impact Research, Molly Murphy. Thank you so much for being with us. We greatly appreciate it.

Molly Murphy (25:39)

Thank you.

Joe Scarborough (25:40)

All right. And still ahead, President Trump meets with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy during the funeral for Pope Francis and later threatens Vladimir Putin with new sanctions. We're going to get expert analysis on the effort to end the war in Ukraine coming up next with David Ignatius. We're back in 90 seconds.

Mika Brzezinski (25:59)

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Joe Scarborough (27:37)

Hey, welcome back to Morning Joe. Hope you're having a good Monday morning. He's getting ready for the new week. Let's let's bring Ashley back in. Ashley, you had two discussions with the President along with Michael back in March. And the second one, as you said, if people are just waking up, second one were you and Michael and also Jeffrey Goldberg went in to the White House to talk to the president. Now this was obviously post signal gate. I'm curious, what did the president have to say about Pete Hegseth and whether his confidence had been shaken at all by the events of the last month?

Ashley Parker (28:18)

Sure.

Mika Brzezinski (28:19)

And I should just say it was two conversations and actually one late night, 1:28am butt dial from the president. But two times we spoke with him and on Hegseth it was interesting. We asked, right? This is the moment where Hagseth has rotated out his chief of staff. He's fired three top advisers. There's news reports of his wife, who is not a Defense Department official, joining him in official meetings. You know, a story that he had installed a makeup room in the Pentagon. And what the president said was, look, I had a talk with him. It was a I did it in a positive way. But I had a talk with him and I think he's going to get his act together.

Joe Scarborough (29:03)

All right, Pablo.

Ashley Parker (29:04)

Yeah, yeah, Joe and Ashley, I've been trying to find a through line through the poll numbers and also Ashley's reporting. And it seems to me that the thing the Democrats might want to point out is that America feels like the Cleveland Browns right now. There are a lot of the hallmarks, a lot of the hallmarks of how an abysmal franchise operates. One of them is, of course, the win loss record, which would be the economy that, that obviously still to come, how bad those numbers can get. But the other hallmark of a dysfunctional franchise in any industry, of course, is how the number one guy doesn't want to take ownership for the decisions of the people that work directly for him. That is another big warning sign. And historically, of course, this administration, you wonder, okay, how long is the tolerance going to be when you're playing defense around your own offense? Ashley, just how does he talk about whether it's the courts, whether it's certainly signalgate, but the courts in particular, can you describe the gap that he's trying to put himself in that's separate and apart actually, from the people directly working for him when it comes to the judiciary?

Mika Brzezinski (30:11)

So the courts was actually fascinating because in both conversations we asked him, you know, would, because he and his vice president have sort of hinted at this, would you defy a judicial ruling? And both times the president was, was adamant that you have to listen to the Supreme Court. You cannot defy the Supreme Court. And he sort of, in the first conversation, almost as a digression, not only did he say that, but then he said, and you know what, even those justices appointed by Democrats, I actually, I like them. They're good people. I see them at the State of the Union and other things I do. And I really have a lot of respect for them. But some of this came in the context of his experience with the courts. And this is what he said to us. He said, look, I went on appeal. So he has confidence right now that a lot of these court cases, if and when they get kicked up to the Supreme Court, will rule in his favor. And my sort of question, which is unknowable, is will he still have such respect for the court and for the justices, and particularly the justices who he did not appoint, who were appointed by Democratic presidents, if there comes a moment where they offer their final word against President Trump and his administration?

Joe Scarborough (31:26)

Right. But you say, Ashley, and he certainly said it inside the White House several times, that when asked, the president said that he would follow the ruling of The Supreme Court.

Mika Brzezinski (31:38)

Yeah, absolutely. He was very clear on that in two separate conversations separated by about a month.

Joe Scarborough (31:45)

So. So, Jim Vande Hei I'm curious, what, what insights do you gain out of the president's interview with the Atlantic, sitting down with Ashley and Jeffrey and Michael and some of the things that you've heard here? Again, there's what the president does as far as policy goes. There's what we've heard over the past couple weeks that the president may be adjusting a bit. I wonder any indication on whether he's this may be the first of many, you know, sort of different tacks towards the media.

Jim VandeHei (32:29)

I don't think the president really ever adjusts. Like, there's always these stories over eight years that he's kind of shifting. And he's always a man in full, like he is who he is. He's not. He's probably one of the least introspective people you're going to talk to. He's like, in his mind, a man of action. And I think the man of action thing, like, gets a lot of people in his base fired up. It also can create a hell of a lot of confusion internally and externally, which he's dealing with now. I mean, listen, to his credit, like, he does sit down with a lot of reporters. And I think every reporter who's ever sat down with him has had the same experience that Ashley does, which is like he will engage. All the mean tweets and all the crap that you see on X or social media, you see very little of that in private. He actually will engage you. Unlike a lot of presidents, he'll ask you questions. His love language is a little bit of confrontation. So he's happy to have it. He really believes what he's doing. And I actually think the most interesting quote was that quote about Hagsett saying he better get his act together. For him even to admit that his act needs to get together is something he usually doesn't do. And he is aware that the Defense Department right now is a mess. And that is a problem for and that's ultimately when you lose a job around Trump, if you start to make him look bad and he can do it on his terms and doesn't feel like he's capitulating to the press, he'll make a move. And I think Hegseth is clearly on a clear warning that if you don't get your act together, you're out, which probably should be the way you do it. If you're losing all of your staff and you have a lot of controversy at what is kind of an important department, the Department of Defense kind of keeps us safe because you do want sane, smart leadership. A little important.

Joe Scarborough (34:11)

Yeah, it's kind of important. That's that Midwest understatement by Jim Vanda. Yeah. You look at the quote again where he's talking about that. We just put up where he's talking about his conversation with Pete Hegseth. He goes, I think he's going to get it together. I had a talk with him, a positive talk, but I had a talk with him. Yeah, it doesn't take a whole lot to read between the lines there. He expects him to get his act together and soon. The Atlantic's Ashley Parker, thank you so much. Her new wide ranging interview with President Trump is now available to read online. And Jim Vande Hei of Axios, thanks for being with us. How did the packers do?

Jim VandeHei (34:55)

It was great, man. How cool was it to see that at Lambeau? It was really awesome.

Joe Scarborough (35:00)

Oh, I know.

Jim VandeHei (35:00)

It really was awesome.

Joe Scarborough (35:02)

My gosh, I know. That was very, very cool. One of these days you're going to invite me up to Lambeau. We'll have to go to a game, Joe.

Jim VandeHei (35:08)

We tried to do that last year. I'd love to get you there with Lambo with open arms.

Joe Scarborough (35:13)

You invite me in February, man. Like let's do like a, like when the season's over. Let's go in September or early October. All right. I'm a Florida guy. All right. Game on. I'll see you there. Lambo it is. There's nothing like it. Coming up, the Washington Post David Ignatius joins us for what could be a critical week for the war in Ukraine. Plus, look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including the sharp criticism of its parent company that we heard last night from CBS's 60 Minutes. Morning, Joe. Be right back. Introducing the new 2025 Ford Maverick truck with in bed power up to 4,000 pounds of towing capability and elev off roading capability. The new 2025 Ford Maverick truck with a standard hybrid engine and available all wheel drive Ford make it with Maverick Max towing on all wheel drive models with available Max trailer tow package excludes Maverick Lobo and Tremor models when properly equipped. Max towing varies based on cargo vehicle configuration, accessories and number of passengers. Always consult the owner's manual before off roading. Know your terrain and trail difficulty and use appropriate safety gear. At Strayer University we help students like you go from will I to why not? For over 130 years we've been innovating higher education to make it more affordable, accessible and attainable so you can reach your goals.

Molly Murphy (36:47)

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Joe Scarborough (36:48)

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Mika Brzezinski (37:03)

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Joe Scarborough (37:36)

What is the timeline? Are you talking weeks or months? How long are you willing to give them to reach a peace agreement? Well, I always think it's silly to set a specific date or whatever, but I can just tell you that almost 100 days into this presidency, the President has dedicated a tremendous amount of time and energy to this. And we think we brought the sides closer than they've been in a very long time. But we're not there yet. And it needs to start happening. We need to start. I think this is going to be.

Ashley Parker (38:01)

A very critical week.

Joe Scarborough (38:02)

This week is going to be a.

Ashley Parker (38:04)

Really important in which we have to.

Joe Scarborough (38:05)

Make a determination about whether this is an endeavor that we want to continue to be involved in, or if it's time to sort of focus on some other issues that are equally, if not more important in some cases.

Ashley Parker (38:16)

But we want to see it happen.

Joe Scarborough (38:17)

There are reasons to be optimistic, but there are reasons to be realistic, of course, as well. We're close, but we're not close enough. That was Secretary of State Marco Rubio and Meet the Press yesterday weighing in on peace talks concerning the war in Ukraine. Meanwhile, while in the Vatican for the Pope's funeral over the weekend, President Trump sat down for a private meeting with Ukrainian President Zelensky. In a statement, Zelensky called it, quote, a very symbolic meeting that has the potential to become historic. The talk lasted for just 15 minutes, but seemed to have a big impact on the president's view of the war. Specific details of the discussion were not made public, but just a few hours after the president posted to Truth Social questioning President Vladimir Putin's actions, he wrote in part this quote, there was no reason for Putin to be shooting missiles into civilian areas, cities and towns over the last few days. It makes me think that maybe he doesn't want to stop the war. He's just tapping me along. President Trump continued to question Putin's motives back in the United States. I was very disappointed that missiles were flying by Russia, but that missiles were flying. Very disappointed. We'll see how it goes.

Jim VandeHei (39:31)

Do you trust President Putin?

G (39:33)

Say it again.

Joe Scarborough (39:34)

Do you trust President Putin?

Jim VandeHei (39:35)

I'll let you know in about two weeks.

Joe Scarborough (39:38)

With us now, let's bring in the columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius. David, I always remind people, and you've, I know you've written about it before, too. Even in the first term, the president would say glowing things about Vladimir Putin, but then go along with Republicans in Congress with, like, some of the toughest sanctions ever against Russia. It's fascinating. I'm wondering what you're reading in these statements that the president made over the weekend after meeting with Zelensky and where he and Ukraine go from here.

G (40:12)

So, Joe, I sense that President Trump is frustrated. We saw in Rome that dramatic photograph of him and President Zelensky at the Vatican that being a peace mediator is the biggest stage there is for a president. There's nothing quite like there was a real sense of drama in that photograph. Trump does want to wrap up the deal. He's used soft carrots with Putin. He's used soft sticks with Zelensky, sometimes harder sticks. Now it's time clearly, to reverse that. His job is to bring Russia into a ceasefire that Ukraine has already basically embraced. The Russians continue to be resistant. If you watched the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, on CBS Face the Nation yesterday, he was snarling in response to the moderator's questions. And as, as Trump and Rubio said, the next several weeks are going to show whether Russia really is prepared to enter into a process that will lead to a ceasefire. Trump thinks he's lined up the basic terms. Europeans that I talk to generally are supportive of the way the US has set up the framework. The problem is you now have, have to push the rest of the way, and there's, there's no confidence yet that that push will be forthcoming. Trump can talk about putting sanctions on Russia to push Russia the last distance towards this cease fire, but until we actually see that, we can't be certain it will happen.

Jonathan Lemire (41:46)

And, David, let's deeper, dive deeper on that very point. There have been moments in the past where there's been a brief spasm of tough rhetoric from Trump about Putin, and it almost, almost instantly evaporates. This is from his first term and certainly we've heard from him in recent years, including about this war, including the stop it, Vladimir post from a few days ago. So if past his prologue, these are just words that this won't lead to anything. So let's say what could the levers, if Trump actually does decide to follow through with this? What are some levers he could be pulling to actually ratchet up the pressure on Russia? And please answer that in the framework of. Because at least to this point, the United States has asked Russia to give up very little in these negotiations. The concessions all seem to be coming from Ukraine.

G (42:32)

So here are some examples. Trump said this past week, dramatically after a horrific Russian missile attack on Kyiv and other cities, please, Vladimir, stop. Well, suppose he does it again. Suppose there's continued missile and drone attacks on Ukrainian cities, as there are reports that there have been. The next thing you say after you say, please stop and somebody doesn't stop is you give them a whack. So the president has talked about sanctions. You impose secondary sanctions. Countries that deal with Russia will be penalized by the United States. That, I think would get Putin's attention. Maybe you announce a change in what had been the formula for us dealing with the parameters of this. There have been suggestions in the documents that have leaked that the United States would be prepared to accept Russian de jure legal sovereignty over Crimea. Maybe you back off that, say, we're not sure we're supporting that anymore. But the next time Russia does something, something that's disruptive to this peace process, if the answer is, is silence, Trump might as well walk away because it's a sign that he's not serious about pushing the sides toward a cease fire and an actual end of the war.

Joe Scarborough (44:00)

Well, you know, David, you go back to what he said in 2007, the invasion of Georgia in 2008, what happened in 2014, Crimea. You, I mean, you go all the way through the, the, this invasion, this war, and you almost get a sense that Vladimir Putin has had this planned since he was burning papers in the East German embassy when, when, when the wall was falling down? I mean, do you see any evidence that he's given up any, any hopes of, of reuniting the old Russian empire by taking Kyiv and, and, and expanding westward?

G (44:42)

I think for the moment, the best I could say is that there's a tactical retreat from those goals right now, given the correlation of forces. Russia's not going to take Kyiv. But I don't think that Putin has given up that idea. In his interview yesterday with CBS's Margaret Brennan, Sergei Lava, the foreign minister, kept coming back to root causes. He said, you're not dealing with root causes. And what I think he means by root causes is a Ukraine that's moving west toward Europe and that's fundamentally threatening to Russia. And you know what, that's what this war is about. And until Russia accepts the fact that Ukraine, virtually all of Ukraine wants to be part of Ukraine Europe and that Europe and the United States support that, until I finally accept that, I think that we're going to be stuck here. I think that's a central issue of the negotiations. So as as Trump and Rubio have said, next two weeks really will matter in terms of whether the US Is serious about putting the pressure on Putin. That's necessary to make a deal.

Joe Scarborough (45:50)

All right. The Washington Post, David Ignatius, as always, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate, appreciate it. All right. Coming up, Canadians are set to elect a new prime minister today. POLITICO's Jonathan Martin is writing about that and how President Trump's tariffs are playing a role in that race. Just a fascinating, just a remarkable turn in that race since Mark Carney has gotten in there. He's going to not Mark Carney, but Jonathan Martin, even better. Jonathan's going to join us ahead on MORNING Joe and we're going to talk about what happened to the NFL draft next on Morning joe.

Jim VandeHei (46:38)

Welcome back.

Jonathan Lemire (46:39)

A beautiful shot of Midtown Manhattan coming up on 7:00 in the east coast and it is the time of the show. We start talking about sports and and yes, we'll begin with there's a lot to get to. We'll start with the NFL draft and it says the league is saying it's reviewing the role of the Atlanta Falcons defensive coordinator and anything role he may have played in his son's prank call to Shadore Sanders. Jeff Ulbricht's 21 year old son Jax called Sanders on the second night of the NFL draft on a phone number that only NFL teams had. The Falcons released a statement yesterday explaining that Ulbricht's son came across the phone number on his father's open iPad while visiting his parents, adding that the defensive coordinator was not aware of the situation until after it happened. Jax Ulbricht posted an apology yesterday on social media writing that he had made a tremendous mistake and thanked Shador Sanders for accepting his call of apology. Sanders had been one of the most high profile prospects heading into the draft, but he ended up sliding all the way to the third day, eventually going to the Cleveland Browns in the fifth round at pick 1 4, 44 overall. And Joe, let's just underscore here. We can dive into some of the other picks in a moment. But the door Sanders incident is the story of the draft. This is someone who, yeah, a few weeks ago was thought to be a top three pick. Now, to be clear, they're sort of conventional wisdom around the league in the last week or so that he was gonna fall out of the top three. That he, you know, maybe mid to late first round, maybe some teams were even saying early second, like, that's sort of where talent evaluators were saying. He didn't still go in the first 30 to 35 picks, though. That was the sense. And instead, all the way to the fifth round, it launched a series of. Of controversies, of heated debate as to why that happened. And then, of course, this also really unfortunate prank phone call.

Joe Scarborough (48:29)

Yeah, I mean that, by the way, that happened to Caleb Williams last year as well. And the kids, kids took it and showed it. And Caleb Williams is very cool about it. Sanders also very cool about it, about it. I think they. They need to practice numbers. That is a horrible thing to do to somebody when. When their future, their life is. Is and where they're going to be going online. But anyway, let's push that aside. I want. So, Pablo, we. We have you here because, you know, you can tell us the story behind this. I want to know what I was watching this past week.

Ashley Parker (49:06)

Yeah.

Joe Scarborough (49:06)

On espn, and I'll tell you why. Mel Kuyper's heads explode, saying, this guy is the best quarterback I've seen.

Ashley Parker (49:13)

He went network since. Since Jesus didn't want to take it anymore. That's right.

Joe Scarborough (49:18)

Yeah. But I don't understand you. Look at his highlights. Okay, the five and outs on the goal line. Yeah, they were impressive. He. He's not the best quarterback. He's not the best quarterback in this draft. Like, the best. Mel Kuiper literally saying, one of the best I've ever seen in my life. And then all these other ESPN and analysts went, well, we can't really say. How dare somebody say that. He had some bad interviews. That's just not fair to this kid. Sanders bragged in April, said, yeah, I went to NFL teams. I told him exactly how it was gonna be. And a lot of them, they just didn't like it too bad. Right. All right, so I'm a head coach. I'm a general manager. I'm an owner. I go okay, well, I've got this kid who thinks he's going to run the place because he's bragged about it in the interviews. I'm not sure why people in ESPN couldn't talk about that instead of attacking people that reported he had bad interviews with NFL teams because he said I had bad interviews with NFL teams. That's number one. Number two, I'm not exactly sure why anybody, why somebody would want to coach a player that had that attitude. Number two, I'm not sure why a team would want to put up with Sanders as a second string quarterback where we're all talking about him. That's all anybody was talking about during the draft. Imagine what, what, what your quarterback's going to have to hear after every game. Go into the press conference. When are you going to play Sanders? When are you going to play Sanders? When are you going to play Sanders? And then number three, Deion Sanders says the only way he's ever going to coach NFL team is if he's coaching his own side. So if I'm an owner and the general manager comes to me go, should we get Sanders? I go, is he going to help us win in the next year? Now? Okay, well, I'm not going to undercut my coach because Deion's already said he's going to coach into the NFL wherever his son's going. So you got a coach that may not want a kid who thinks he's going to run the team. You've got general managers that don't want to look like they're undermining their coaches. And you've got a quarterback who, other than Mel Kuyper, nobody thinks is going to turn a franchise around. Well, this is, I don't understand why they couldn't say that off the top. Like there's, oh, we can't say anything. I mean, Rhys Davis finally, finally, like pushed back against Mel Kuyper. I think Reese, who's like the calmest, most mild mannered guy in the world after like four days of this where nobody was telling the truth, I think he finally had enough. I just, this is, this is the end of my rant. Finally. This is my Mel Kuiper rant. Finally. For anybody watching this and going, going, oh my gosh, NFL. They had something against him because of Sanders or because of this. Every coach wants to win, every general manager wants to win, every owner wants to win. They don't do anything else. They're not interested in making any statements. They're not interested in making any political statements. They're not interested in making any statements other than, I'm going to win. This is how I'm going to win. I'm going to put myself in the best position to win. And there were, you know, every team in the NFL through the first three rounds said, I think we can get there in a way that's less disruptive to our team and our clubhouse than picking Sanders. That's the end of my rant. It was very frustrating to watch this this weekend where they didn't just say it on espn.

Ashley Parker (52:54)

Yeah, I'm keeping track of all the points you made. I'll address them in something like chronological order. I was watching and feeling something similar as you do the red yarn conspiracy board here. Look, this is a. Yes. And kind of a story, Joe. It really is. So is Mel Kuiper right when he says that the NFL historically is terrible at evaluating the most important position that they spend all of their time scouting in quarterbacks. Yes. And is it also true that Deion Sanders and his son Shedeur and Deion, by the way, not merely his coach, but also his agent, is it also true that they handle the draft process in a way that backfired spectacularly? Yes. And when it comes to what their strategy was, this was a real Acme Looney Tunes. Oh, no. We exploded the TNT right in front of our own face. Their strategy was to recap for those not familiar with the lore of how this all went. I've been making calls about this all weekend, by the way, talking to NFL execs about this very question. What they did was they tried to scare away all of the teams they didn't want to go to so they could hand pick their desired location. They were trying to flip the power dynamic.

Joe Scarborough (54:05)

Right.

Ashley Parker (54:05)

We're in charge, you're not. And the problem was that that strategy to shrink the market for Shedeur Sanders worked too well, to the point where actually nobody was in on it because. Yes. And to your point, he's just not good enough to do that. And so there was this flying too close to the sun dynamic with an unprecedented combination of former NFL superstar turned college head coach, superstar turned agent, where they want to control everything. And teams were like, that's not how this league works when you're really graded, let's say generously, as a second or third round pick. But when it's that guy with that talent level trying to dictate terms, that's how you get to become a 5th rounder. And so, Joe, to me, what is this a story about? It's a story about power in the NFL and who gets to exert it. And the religion, as you were alluding to, the religion of sports, is if you are talented enough, you get power. The NFL has always been the most loathe to give it out, but I just point your attention to a guy that we talk about all of the time on this show with the most cynical transaction in sports history, deshaun Watson. Right.

Joe Scarborough (55:17)

They don't care about character.

Ashley Parker (55:19)

The team that took Shadow Sanders is the team that paid everything for a guy with dozens, dozens of sexual misconduct lawsuits against him. And that's the team that ended up taking him because they got him at a discount. So it's just, it's a yes and story. And then you get to the Browns. John, the idea that the Browns signed four quarterbacks, quarterbacks this off season, four. They took Dylan Gabriel before should. It's just, that's what I say, like information security, a cabinet full of, of incompetence. That's where the metaphor gets a little bit on the nose when it comes to the grounds as a metaphor for lots going on right now, you know.

Joe Scarborough (55:55)

You know, John, Ari Emanuel says it's not about the money. It's about the money. And in the NFL, it's not about winning. It's about winning. That's all it's about. And that's where you have the power. If, if Sanders, if these coaches, these general managers, the scouts, if they thought he was, you know, a great quarterback, that was going to help them win in year one, everything else is noise. This kid, we're going to put him on the field, he's going to make us competitive next year, they would put up with. They just didn't do it. Everybody's always trying to read into what the NFL is trying to do and try. No, they want to win. Their jobs depend on them winning. Them staying in their jobs, being able to pay their mortgages, keeping their kids in schools in those communities for another year depends on how many wins and losses they have. And the general managers and the code coaches, they're not sitting there scheming, going, we're really going to give it to Sanders and Mel Kuyper. No, they're interested in themselves.

Jonathan Lemire (57:06)

It's certainly a tradition in these NFL drafts. There's always the one or two highly touted prospects who slide, and we watch them in the green room or at home waiting for their name to get called. Aaron Rodgers, famously. But we've never had something quite like this where it went to the fifth round. And a kid who I Think there were certainly some who felt bad for Shador Sanders, the way this played out, particularly once we learned about the prank call. But to Pablo's point, you do hear it around the league, around the sports world, about how they mismanaged the situation in the draft process, the interviews and the like. And look to your point, Joe, NFL teams are about winning. This was considered one of the weaker quarterback classes. We've had a draft in a long time. So already though, Sanders was sort of elevated as a top prospect because the competition around him wasn't that good. And then everything that happens over the last couple of weeks just shows his stock fell that much more. And the league was simply like, this guy is not good enough, at least not yet, to take a chance on everything that comes with him. And look, he goes to a team at Devlo's point, it's chaos there with Cleveland, hey, if he has a great camper, maybe he can win the starting job or be the backup and then eventually win it. He'll have that opportunity there. But, you know, certainly that's not how we're going to. That's not the first line right now of his legacy.

Joe Scarborough (58:19)

No, I mean, and again, there's a long history, but he obviously going to bring up Tom Brady, how, how low he was. And same thing with Joe Montana. So many other great quarterbacks did get ranked in the first round. Nobody. You didn't just say Montana is overrated, did you?

Jonathan Lemire (58:34)

No, he tried. He took a break, a joke at me because.

Joe Scarborough (58:38)

Oh, okay.

Ashley Parker (58:39)

Making clear. Making clear. Yeah, exactly who the target.

Joe Scarborough (58:42)

So finally it's five after and we have to go, I want to talk about Liverpool, I want to talk about the Red Sox, NBA, here we go. But now, but I want to say on this finally, and make one arcane point, mundane point that only 14 people will care about. But Pablo, also weak class for quarterbacks, right? Also, I think we saw a shift last year and I think we saw a shift where last year everybody said, oh, the only thing that matters is quarterback. Only that matters. Quarterback Pennix gets picked number eight by the Falcons, right? About three rounds too high. He's a really good quarterback. But again, everybody was like overvaluing quarterbacks last year. What did we see with Barkley in Philadelphia? Suddenly people going, wait a second, maybe it's not all about the quarterback. Maybe it's about the running back. Maybe it's about the line. Maybe it's about, oh, I don't know, the other 21 players that are on the team, that other 21 starters that matter. I think that also did not help because I'm not saying the quarterbacks were devalued, but there wasn't a great class this year. And what did the NFL learn last year? It doesn't all start and end with your quarterback.

Ashley Parker (59:51)

Yeah, I mean, look, the Philadelphia Eagles did not win the super bowl, are not currently the most dominant franchise in the league because of their quarterback. It's because they dominate in the trenches. It's because of line play. And if you look at, you know, it's. I didn't expect to praise the New York Giants in our discussion discussion here, but I thought it was fascinating what they've done this offseason. So they take Abdul Carter, Joe from the sec, of course, George, the most talented player in the draft. That is a guy you want in your trenches on defense. And then of course I think they looked at the Minnesota Vikings, right, A team that was really good this past season with not their, you know, top 10 pick, JJ McCarthy who got hurt, but with Sam Darnold, which is a lesson about what it means to be a quote unquote bridge candidate, a bridge quarterback, a middle class player, so to speak, that isn't a star rookie or a superstar player making max money, but is just good enough when the rest of your team is engineered to actually be good at every other position. And so the Giants, they take Jackson Dart again, another SEC guy out of Ole Miss in the second round, they get their guy in the trenches. They're following a playbook. To me that is a lot like what the modern NFL is, which is learned lessons about. Wait a minute, what if we get get, you know, Brock Purdy under the last pick of the draft? Mr. Orrelda, what if we get Tom Brady? What if we just get a middle class guy for now and are just really good at building the organization otherwise? And that to me is the new new NFL.

Joe Scarborough (61:17)

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