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Morning Joe
Morning Joe 4/29/25
01:00:14
Canada's Mark Carney pulls off huge poll swing to keep power and condemns American 'betrayal'
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- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start.
- [00:04]
Mika Brzezinski
Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte.
- [00:08]
Joe Scarborough
Paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is.
- [00:12]
Mika Brzezinski
With Thumbtack, you don't have to be.
- [00:13]
Joe Scarborough
A home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download. Today, MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series, David Frost versus On the next episode, Muhammad Ali. You think I'm gonna get on this.
- [00:30]
John Heilman
TV and deny what I believe?
- [00:32]
Joe Scarborough
Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [00:38]
Mika Brzezinski
We are over the shock of the American betrayal, but we should never forget the lessons. We have to look out for ourselves. And above all, we have to take care of each other. When I sit down with President Trump, it will be to discuss the future economic and security relationship between two sovereign nations. And it will be with our full knowledge that we have many, many other options than the United States to build prosperity for all Canadians.
- [01:21]
Willie Geist
Newly elected Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney with a strong message overnight during his victory SPEEC speech. We're going to dig into how his election win could impact relations with the United States. Also ahead, we'll break down President Trump's first 100 days in office as well as his latest executive order calling for a possible domestic deployment of the US Military. Plus, we'll have the latest on negotiations between Russia and Ukraine ahead of a Putin backed threat three day ceasefire next week. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, April 29th. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the co host of our fourth hour, Jonathan Lemaire. He's a contributing writer at the Atlantic covering the White House and national politics. MSNBC political analyst Anand Girdardis. He's publisher of the newsletter on the Ink available on Substack and has something new to announce today. We'll talk about that and NBC News now. He's here, guys. National affairs analyst and partner in chief political columnist at Puck, John Heilman. So, Joe, we have a lot to get to today, packed with news. We're going to start with the president's first 100 days, but the news overnight from Canada, quite amazing as well.
- [02:42]
Joe Scarborough
Well, and also amazing news. John Heilman here on time. It's time to ring the John Heilman here on time bell.
- [02:50]
Anand Giridharadas
Hold on.
- [02:51]
Willie Geist
That's good.
- [02:51]
Joe Scarborough
Okay, so there we go. Yeah, we don't ring that. I mean, you don't, you don't ring that often, but we did there. So. So, Willie, the Washington Post, just checking the headlines, called Mark Carney's and the Liberal Party's comeback a stunning comeback. The New York Times called it a dramatic, actually, it was. The Wall Street Journal called it a dramatic turnaround. And the Conservative Party leader who had been basically aping American politics and trying to turn himself into a mini Trump, actually not only lost his bid to be prime minister, but lost his individual seat that he'd been holding for 20 years. It was a stunning reversal and a stunning rebuke for Conservatives in Canada. Just, you know, Carney ran a remarkable campaign and still with Mike Myers and I'm serious, put out perhaps the best political commercial I've seen in a decade.
- [03:58]
Anand Giridharadas
Well, yeah, this was if you were handicapping this race a couple of months ago, early in the year, at least January, when Trudeau announced he would be stepping down. As you said, the Conservatives were the favorite to win. Everything changed when Donald Trump first put on the tariffs and then talked relentlessly, including in the last couple of days about making Canada the 51st state, saying it is meant to be, let me come and take over Canada. Well, there was a complete rejection of that inside of Canada by the voters. And Mark Carney, who won last night with the Liberal Party, the incoming prime minister to succeed Justin Trudeau, you heard it again last night. Defiant said we are a sovereign nation and we will be that way when I sit down with Donald Trump. He said, there has been an American betrayal, said the new prime minister of Canada, our great friend on the border. And we have to change the way we look at the United States. United States. And that message really, really resonated in the last couple of months with voters in Canada.
- [04:56]
Joe Scarborough
Well, and when Trudeau stepped down, Liberals were down about 20 to 23 points in polls. And, and they won last night. And they're waiting this morning to see if they actually have an outright majority to run Parliament in Canada. It was really one of the most stunning political turnarounds in, in quite some time. Meek. And we'll talk about that a little bit later. But right now, obviously, Today marks the 100th day of the second Trump administration.
- [05:30]
Willie Geist
Yes, the president will be holding a rally in Warren, Michigan, at Macomb Community College, where he made two campaign stops ahead of last year's election. It comes as five major polls over the past week show historically low approval ratings for the president. Trump yesterday dismissed the numbers in a long post on social media, writing that the pollsters should be investigated for election fraud. President Trump has signed 143 executive orders so far, more than any other president in history in the first 100 days. Meanwhile, in an appearance on Fox News over the weekend, longtime Republican strategist Karl Rove gave a stark assessment of the president's handling of the economy. Take a listen. When it gets to the economy, he is in very bad shape. And it's not only that he's in the short term in bad shape. There's also evidence in the poll that no matter, even if he gets his way on certain things like tariffs, that he's not good in the long run. Take a look at this. Trump policies today, Will it help the economy? 32% say yes. Will it hurt the economy? His policies, 54% say no 10%, but no difference in the long run, will it help the country? 40% in the long run, will it hurt the country? 51%. So there's some very deep seated skepticism among ordinary Americans about the effect of the economy, the president's economic policies, both in the short run and the long run.
- [07:06]
Joe Scarborough
He was elected because people had more confidence in his ability to help the economy and lower prices than they did in Kamala Harris. So to what do you attribute that new skepticism or real concern about the economy?
- [07:21]
Willie Geist
Well, I have a slightly different view. I agree with you that they voted for him because they felt better, in.
- [07:27]
Joe Scarborough
My opinion about they looked at the.
- [07:29]
Willie Geist
Last four years under Biden Harris and said not good. And they looked at and remembered the four years under President Trump and said those were a lot better. I think this was a hope. I don't think it was based upon an explicit understanding of what he was going to do. They just hoped that he would do better on inflation and jobs and economic growth. And then when he came in, just the sort of chaos and the inability of the administration to explain what they're doing I think has hurt them very much.
- [07:57]
Anand Giridharadas
And a tanking of the economy you could add into that. That's Karl Rove. The Wall Street Journal editorial board this morning argues, quote, At 100 days, Trump 2.0 is in trouble. The new piece on the op ed page reads this presidential second terms are rarely successful. And on the evidence of his first 100 days, Donald Trump's won't be different. The White House motto seems to be that if something is worth doing, it's wor. That's especially true on tariffs, which could sink his presidency. Ken Griffin, the investor and major donor to Mr. Trump, summed it up last week as a self inflicted blow to the American brand. The US is needlessly ceding global economic leadership. Voters reelected Mr. Trump in part because they remembered fondly his first term economy, but that success was owed mainly to his pursuit of conventional GOP priorities like tax reform and deregulation. This term he is indulging in his trade and foreign policy obsessions and the early results are negative. He will fail unless he heeds the warnings. That is from the Wall Street Journal. President Trump obviously doesn't see it that way. He thinks all the polls are fake. Talking about the interference in an election. Unclear which election he's referring to, but obviously the data is there. Fox News, the Wall Street Journal, even many conservatives saying not so good so far.
- [09:17]
Mike Barnacle
Yeah, he won the last election and he's prohibited from running again. So it's not sure what he's talking about there. We'll certainly hear different message from the president tonight. He heads to Michigan, one of those blue wall states that he won twice in 16 and 24 after losing it in 2020. A lot of his closest aides feel like that's where he made his strength, white working class voters and flipped over just enough of whether it's black and Latino voters and gathered some new members of his coalition. This time around, you know he's going to be talking about the economy. He's going to bet he's. But when he does so, it's going to be in sharp contrast with reality. We have seen the markets quake. We have seen consumer sentiment plummet. We have seen real worries about inflation because of this self inflicted trade war because of these tariffs that very few people think is a sound economic plan. We're also going to hear him lean in heavily, I am told, on the issue of immigration, which is what they keep wanting coming back, the topic they keep wanting to return to even yesterday on the White House lawn, putting up posters on the fence there on the White House driveway of who they say are illegal immigrants who then committed violent crimes here in the United States, which is their justification for their deportation plan and putting them up in a way that if a newscaster is doing a live shot from the White House, that's the backdrop. It's unavoidable. Those pictures, it's a very in your face moment, Willie. And that's what they want to talk about because so much else they can read the polls. I talked to someone in the White House yesterday saying it's not panic, but of course they understand their numbers are down. They'd rather have good polls than bad. They recognize right now American voters not quite sure what they're seeing, sure.
- [10:53]
John Heilman
Yeah.
- [10:54]
Joe Scarborough
I mean, and that is the attitude in the White House is would rather have good polls and bad polls. A lot of stuff has been going on over the first 100 days, but we're going to start focusing on trade deals, on peace deals, on tariff deals. And then they say they believe those numbers are going to turn around. John Heilman, though, there is, as John Lemire said, always a focus on immigration. If they think that they need to move from another, another subject. The problem there is they're upside down on immigration. And several of the polls also, just about every poll I've seen over the past week has shown they're upside down significantly, even on the Abrego Garcia case. And now, of course, headlines over the past couple days about two young children that were taken out of the country with their mother, one with stage four cancer, I believe, advanced cancer. And so again, even on the issue that should be again the winner for them, there is this overreach that always seems to turn, if not their most ardent supporters, certainly those swing voters that put the president over the top in the upper Midwest blue walled states, turning them off. And I mean, we see the numbers dropping among Hispanics, we see the numbers dropping among Americans without a college degree. We see see it dropping especially with younger Americans. So there are these specific areas where this overreach, as the Wall Street Journal pointed out, this overreach seems to be getting in the way of even issues like immigration, which should be helping President Trump.
- [12:43]
Mika Brzezinski
Well, yeah, that's right, Joe. And I got to say, you look at all of the polling that we got over the weekend at this hundred day mark, and you know, it is he is now since the invention of modern polling, if you're judging public opinion through the best instruments we have, his first hundred days are less popular and his presidency is in worse state than any president in the history of modern polling. And if you look across those issues, this gets to your immigration point, there isn't a bright spot. There's not something you can't say, well, he's down here, but he's doing great over here. Immigration is the strongest issue they have. And he is across all that polling. His numbers on immigration aren't great. And I think you got to think back to the first term when immigration was an important reason why he won the first term, often overlooked by people in analyzing 20, the 2016 race. And what happened was he lost the plot with family separation. The family separation policy was when people started to put human face to the cruelty of that policy. And he lost a lot of support on immigration around that issue. And I think from it was predictable that if he tried to do an immigration policy that was as draconian as he promised, that the same phenomenon would happen. Now, the Abrego Garcia case and a number of these other cases are getting a ton of attention for good reason. And they are dragging his numbers down on an issue where in general he has a lot of support among the American people. And in general, it's always been one of his strongest issues. They are just comprehensively, politically speaking in a huge amount of trouble with the American people right now.
- [14:30]
Joe Scarborough
And Mika, I'll tell you what was so remarkable about the polling that came out is of course we have the headlines about President Trump because he's the president. That's where the headlines are going to go, being at 39% in several polls, 40 in some polls, being extraordinarily low on a lot of issues. But then the other side of the story is a polling on Democrats. The Democratic brand is as bad as it has ever been. And really one of the most stunning polls is this one right here with Donald Trump at historically low numbers. Voters were asking the ABC News Washington Post poll, who do you trust to do a better job handling the country's main problems? Donald Trump still beating Democrats by 7 percentage points. Of course, 30% of Americans still up for grabs because they say we don't trust either of them. By the way, for people who have always dreamed of an independent candidate being president of the United States, that poll right there is something that's going to be passed around for the next several weeks because again, 30% of Americans say none of the above, but Democrats, again, this should be a time for Democrats to step through the door that voters and Donald Trump has opened up for them and they're not doing it. And one Democratic governor, J.B. pritzker of Illinois, he took note of that.
- [16:04]
Willie Geist
Yeah, he issued some pretty harsh criticism about his own party. Here he is in New Hampshire on Sunday.
- [16:13]
Mika Brzezinski
Fellow Democrats, for far too long we've been guilty of listening to a bunch of do nothing political types who would tell you that America's house is not on fire. Even as the flames were licking their faces, voters didn't turn out for Democrats last November.
- [16:30]
Joe Scarborough
Not because they don't want us to.
- [16:32]
Mika Brzezinski
Fight for their values, but because they think we don't want to fight for our values. We need to knock off the rust.
- [16:41]
Joe Scarborough
Of poll tested language, decades of stale decorum.
- [16:45]
Mika Brzezinski
It's obscured our better instincts. We have to abandon the culture of incrementalism that has led us to swallow the cruelty and the callousness with barely a cowardly croak. Never before in my life have I called for mass protests, for mobilization, for disruption, but I am now.
- [17:12]
Joe Scarborough
These Republicans cannot know a moment of peace.
- [17:16]
Mika Brzezinski
They have to understand that we will fight their cruelty with every megaphone and microphone that we have. We must castigate them on the soapbox and then punish them at the ballot box.
- [17:30]
Willie Geist
All right, Ana and Garrett Artis, actually, in terms of people doing everything they can, a great opportunity to talk about the book club you're starting up. So it makes sense to. But first, if you listen to Governor Pritzker, who is obviously very frustrated with the party, it sounds like the party needs to focus on what gets them rebuilding. So what does the party need to focus on and what does the party need to avoid focusing on, at least for this time?
- [17:59]
Ed Luce
The most important thing in that those clips you showed was the sounds of the audience as their brains realized someone was actually maybe fighting for them. And it took them a second to process it because it hasn't happened in some time, and it doesn't happen often now. And you could feel this kind of pent up. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for calling for protests. Thank you for saying these Republicans should have no peace. Right now. It is not about progressive, moderate, this and that. It is about level of fight, level of spine. And so I think right now there is a. There's been this void. And when you look at that 37, 30, 30 poll, the winner is the only winner in American life right now. Is the void is the sense of defenselessness.
- [18:45]
Joe Scarborough
No.
- [18:45]
Ed Luce
1, I mean, that's a terrible number for the president, but that's a terrible number for a Democratic Party that claims to be an alternative. And so it is. I think it's great that Governor is talking like this, but the AOC Bernie tour, we're gonna need to try lots of different efforts to build actual passionate movement. And it's gonna take, frankly, exactly as he said, a different level of spine, a different willingness to fight. It is not gonna take these kind of. These encrusted members of Congress who have just shown themselves to be useless in 95% of cases. It's gonna take a whole new bunch of people.
- [19:25]
Willie Geist
And Joe, just on the other side of that, is there also a possible strategy for unity between Democrats and Republicans? Wouldn't now and the weeks to come be a moment where you might find a good number of Republicans regretting their vote? I just worry that you know, there's an opportunity there as well.
- [19:52]
Joe Scarborough
I mean, there is an opportunity there. But, but the Democrats have to get their own house in order first. And the way you do that, especially when, when you're out of power in all branches of government, they usually coalesce around one person. Of course, it happened after the 2004 election. A lot of coalescing around Barack Obama and there has to be somebody that the Democrats begin to coalesce around. And so it may be a messy process for a year or so, but you are going to see that coalescing. But I will tell you going to what, what Anan is saying. The Democrats, just like those people who voted for Donald Trump and Swinger, they want somebody who's going to fight for them. That's a bottom line. They want somebody that's going to stand up and speak out and fight for them. And, and, and, and that means, you know, that means going after the biggest tech companies in the world who have monopolies to allow more tech companies to get started and to create more jobs and spread wealth across America. And it also means they have to fight. And I know you'll agree with me with, with within four working class voters and middle class voters who keep falling further and further behind, there's always this stupid either or choice. It's like you either have to call yourself a socialist like Bernie Sanders and be progressive like AOC, or you can't fight for working class Americans. I mean there is a synthesis here where you can have people who are moderates on, on a lot of issues that will make, make swing voters comfortable. But who, so who are also willing to fight the way Bernie Sanders and AOC are willing to fight for working class voters and to say what is true, that's not demagoguery, but to say the system is rigged for the richest people on the planet. The system is rigged for billionaires who pay basically of what they make every year in taxes. Well, people who work for them are paying 35, 39%. People who, who, who run family restaurants and bookstores on Main street are paying, you know, where, you know, hardware stores on Main street paying 40, 45, 50% in taxes. There has to be that fight. And they also can't be afraid, Anan, they can't be afraid to fight on issues that the media or that Republicans say are unpopular issues. This is one of the things I learned when I was running. Whenever, whenever there was an issue that I believe strongly and that people said and I was just political death to talk about it, I Ran straight to it. I ran straight into it. And I think in this case, Abreu Garcia, who you hear Republicans say, please fight for him. Yeah, I say, yeah, listen to the Republicans on this one. And usaid, where you had a billionaire wielding a chainsaw, the richest man in the world bragging about taking food from the poorest people on our planet. Now, I can't tell you how many Democrats say, oh, people hate foreign aid. We can't talk about that. Wrong, wrong. That is a moral issue. That's also an issue about what kind of country we are. That is Ronald Reagan's. We are a city shining brightly on the Hill for all the world to see. Like, Democrats have to stop being scared of their shadow. Like, like they, they've been for too long. And I mean, I'm curious, what, what is your message, Democrats on how they start influencing those swing voters to turn their way?
- [24:09]
Ed Luce
You know, I tend to think about politics through the lens of emotion often. And you ran races, you know how important what people are feeling ends up being in politics. And those things are sometimes related to facts, and they're sometimes adjacent and sometimes kind of far afield from the facts. And the biggest emotion, political emotion of our time, I believe, is the sense of defenselessness. I think people on the left feel undefended. I think people on the right feel undefended. I think people who are unaffiliated with any tribe feel undefended. There's urban versions of feeling undefended. There's a border version of feeling undefended. There's economic versions of feeling undefended. When you look at your paycheck, there's feelings of being undefended. When you deal with the health care system and you see things like some number of people gravitating to a murderer of a health care CEO because again, they're just feeling so undefended that anything, anything is appealing. And I try to have some kind of faith in the wisdom of democracy, even when I don't like the outcome. When Donald Trump won the second time, I tried to think about what is the wisdom of the democracy here. And I think the wisdom is people are saying, like, let's just try whatever, nothing conventional works. And I think it's really, really important for that sense of fight to be embedded in whoever comes next in Democrats.
- [25:35]
Anand Giridharadas
So as for the question of democracy, you've got an announcement for us this morning to subscribers of the inc, a book club about democracy. Tell us about it.
- [25:43]
Ed Luce
So a remarkable thing happened a few months ago. Someone I've known For a long time. Lee Haber, who built Oprah's Book Club with her, reached out to me and said, I want to build something with you. And I thought it was maybe like an email to the wrong person at first. But she, like so many in our country, is anguished by what's happening. And we worked together over the last few months and today we're launching the Ink Book Club. And it's a book club centered on democracy, but around it, not just head on. We're going to read fiction, nonfiction, things old, things new. We're starting with Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson's book Abundance, which is been provocative and controversial. But we're, you know, they want to ban books on the right, so we're going to read them.
- [26:29]
Willie Geist
Got a book for you.
- [26:30]
Ed Luce
Yeah.
- [26:31]
Willie Geist
It's called Zbig. Ed Luce wrote it. I'll submit.
- [26:34]
Ed Luce
Okay. I like it.
- [26:35]
Willie Geist
Talking about it.
- [26:36]
Ed Luce
I like it. But we, you know, there's so much doom scrolling right now and we wanted to do what I call bloom scrolling and have people read for context. James Baldwin is a great line. You know, you think, you think it's the worst thing in the world until you, until you read a book and realize you're not alone in that way. I think books also show us what can be beyond just being against Donald Trump. There has to be something imagined on the far side of the mountain. And they help us, you know, console ourselves and connect to each other.
- [27:05]
Willie Geist
MSNBC political analyst Anand Girdardes, thank you so much. Congratulations on the book club. We'll be following that. And still ahead on Morning Joe, Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered a three day ceasefire in Ukraine. NBC's Keir Simmons joins us to talk about what Putin's trying to achieve by doing this and what it could mean for a larger peace deal. Plus what a former top advisor to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is saying about the state of the Pentagon right now. And the quote, Tale of Two Pete's Morning Joe is back in 90 seconds.
- [28:01]
Joe Scarborough
Introducing the new 2025 Ford Maverick truck with in bed power, up to 4,000 pounds of towing capability and elevated off roading capability. The new 2025 Ford Maverick truck with a standard hybrid engine and available all wheel drive. Ford make it with Maverick Max towing on all wheel drive models with available Max trailer tow pack. Excludes Maverick Lobo and Drummer models when properly equipped. Max towing varies based on cargo vehicle configuration, accessories and number of passengers. Always consult the owner's manual before off roading. Know your terrain and trail difficulty and.
- [28:29]
Mika Brzezinski
Use appropriate safety gear.
- [28:31]
Joe Scarborough
MSNBC presents Main justice each week on their podcast, veteran lawyers Andrew Weissman and Mary McCord break down the latest developments inside the Trump administration's Department of Justice. The administration doesn't necessarily want to be questioned on any of its policy.
- [28:47]
Ed Luce
I think what we are seeing is.
- [28:50]
Mike Barnacle
Project 2025 in action.
- [28:52]
Joe Scarborough
This is it coming to fruition. Main justice subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for ad, free listening and bonus content. Stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter.
- [29:06]
Mike Barnacle
Each morning you'll get analysis by experts.
- [29:08]
Joe Scarborough
You trust, video highlights from your favorite shows.
- [29:11]
Willie Geist
I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.
- [29:16]
Joe Scarborough
Previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. Get the best of MSNBC all in one place. Sign up for msnbc daily@msnbc.com about empty shelves because they say that a lot of these, the supply lines and the cargo ships are being held up. A lot of people are saying turn it around. With the tariffs this high, I don't want the product. Are you worried about empty shelves? Not at present.
- [29:47]
Anand Giridharadas
We have some great retailers.
- [29:49]
Mika Brzezinski
I assume they preordered.
- [29:50]
Joe Scarborough
I think we'll see some elasticity. I think we'll see replacements and then.
- [29:55]
Mika Brzezinski
We will see how quickly the Chinese.
- [29:58]
Joe Scarborough
Want to de escalate. That's Treasury Secretary Scott Bessen on Fox News when asked about the ongoing trade war with China and concerns that the president's tariffs could lead to retail shortages. And it's something that I think the heads of huge department stores like Walmart been warning White House officials that if, if they keep moving forward in the direction they're moving forward on, they're going to have to be prepared for empty shelves at a lot of retail stores around America, obviously something that Scott Besant and the president and the White House would not want to see. John Heilman, We've been talking a good bit about poll numbers. We showed the clip of Karl Rove on Fox News, the Wall Street Journal Ed Page, obviously a Murdoch newspaper. These are conservative voices that we're, we're showing that are talking about how political gravity is settling in. I think the question that a lot of people would have is any chance of that political gravity settles in on Capitol Hill, especially among Republicans in the Senate.
- [31:05]
Mika Brzezinski
I mean, obviously, Joseph, that's the $64,064 billion question. And look, the key thing for Trump throughout this first hundred days has been, as you well know the acquiescence of Senate Republicans to pretty much any, to Senate and House Republicans, Congressional Republicans to pretty much anything he's wanted to do. He's governed out of the executive, all the executive orders. There's been very little legislation moved on Capitol Hill. But in terms of appointments, in terms of everything that he's tried to do, essentially the congressional branch, the legislative branch of our government controlled by Republicans, has said to Trump, you have a free pass, do whatever you want. Don't talk to us. We're not going to exercise our institutional prerogatives on tariffs. It's the first time that we have seen a sign that there are Senate Republicans, at least a few in the House, but not many. But Senate Republicans led by Rand Paul, who are loudly speaking out and saying, you know what, this terror policy is terrible and we need to take back the congressional authority to pass tariffs to. This shouldn't be an executive function. That vote's coming up this week. The White House yesterday issued a veto threat. Now, that bill is never going to get to the president's desk because House Republicans are never going to pass it. So why is the White House and Trump has said a bunch of things on Truth Social about Republicans in the Senate. Why are they freaking out so much about that? I think they're freaking out about it not because they fear it becoming law, but because they can see that that is the first sign of political gravity kicking in on Capitol Hill and the first sign that Republicans may not just give him a blank check going forward if the economy continues to suffer under this policy. And that rightly has Trump worried.
- [32:51]
Anand Giridharadas
So far, they have given a blank check. We'll see how far they're willing to be pushed. Let's turn overseas, where Russian President Vladimir Putin has announced plans for a 72 hour ceasefire in the war against Ukraine. According to the Kremlin, the ceasefire will run for three days, beginning next Thursday, May 8th. Officials say the decision, which came without Ukraine's input, was made on, quote, humanitarian grounds. The announcement came just hours after President Trump suggested Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is willing to give up the country's claim to Crimea territory that Russia illegally annexed in 2014 as part of a larger truce deal, though we have not heard that from Zelenskyy himself. Let's bring in NBC News chief international correspondent Keir Simmons. MSNBC contributor Mike Barnacle joins. Stumbling in, fellas, good morning. Good to see you, Kir. It's nice to have you at the table. We always see you out in the field. It's good to have you here with us. So you've covered this war so closely for the last three years. What is your sense of where things are? We had those dramatic photos of President Trump inside St. Peter's for the funeral of Pope Francis, sitting face to face in those chairs, discussing for about 15 minutes the future of Ukraine. From what you can tell from your reporting, where are we right now?
- [34:02]
John Heilman
We're at a crunch moment. I'll be in Moscow next week when President Putin hosts the victory day celebrations in Red Square with President Xi there. So that's, I guess, now 10 days, maybe more away, and that's going to be a symbolic moment to see the Chinese leader and the Russian leader standing together. And where will we be? I mean, if anyone around this table knows what President Trump plans to do, I mean, that's the really big question here. I'm not sure he necessarily knows. But what I think we can say now with more certainty after President Putin announced this three day ceasefire around those victory day celebrations, is that Putin is absolutely prepared to not do this, to not do the deal. Why would I say that? Because the offer from Washington and Kyiv was 30 days and Putin just hasn't signed up to that at any moment. The three day ceasefire is a cynical game of chess, because what he's effectively doing, and it's impressive, frankly, I mean, the guy is a tactician. What he's effectively doing is trying to rule out the Ukrainians. Many have already said this in the last 24 hours, rule out the Ukrainians from attacking Moscow, which we now know they are very capable of doing during his victory celebrations while he has the Chinese leader in Moscow. If the Ukrainians do that, then Putin will say, well, you see, you can't trust the Ukrainians with a ceasefire. So therefore, why would I sign up to a 30 day ceasefire? We also know that there are Russian forces prepared for another offensive. They've struggled a little bit in the spring, according to reporting, but they're looking towards the summer. They appear to have pushed Ukrainians out of Kursk. That's what they said they've achieved in the past 24 hours. They say they've finally done that. I was on the Russian side of the front line in Kursk last month and it was clear to me they'd already taken Kursk, the Russians taking it back. The Russian soldiers there that I saw, and they were everywhere. I think they'd like to stop fighting, but they didn't look exhausted. I watched American equipment being carried away on trucks. So I think the Russians are absolutely prepared to keep going, to try to win back the three, the four key regions, aside from Crimea, that Putin wants. And I think Putin will look at the situation like this. What's my best option? Is doing a diriban my best option, or is continuing the war my best option? He shares that a little bit with Trump. It was interesting to hear President Trump say, I'm determined but flexible. That's a little. The way that Putin operates. He's a tactician. He knows what he wants to achieve ultimately, which is to weaken America, to divide Europe and America, to weaken the west, to make Russia stronger. And he just thinks at each moment, what's my move now? To get to that ultimate goal.
- [36:50]
Joe Scarborough
So you used the word cynical a few moments ago in describing Putin. You've sat with Putin.
- [36:56]
John Heilman
Yeah.
- [36:57]
Joe Scarborough
The three day ceasefire on the anniversary of Russia's greatest victory in World War II is just laced with cynicism.
- [37:07]
John Heilman
Right, right.
- [37:09]
Joe Scarborough
But Putin versus Trump, two rather cynical individuals, I think. How does it match up in your mind, Putin's game playing against what Donald Trump wants to achieve in Ukraine?
- [37:25]
John Heilman
Well, I think the question is whether President Trump and that image of President Trump and President Zelensky in Rome together. The question is whether President Trump is prepared to turn on a dime and continue to support Ukraine. There's obviously a congressional challenge there too, but the US still has the capability to provide that intelligence support and whether he is really prepared to message to President Putin that. That you cannot win this, because we will stay, we actually will shift and supply the kind of support to Ukraine that at least freezes the battlefield. And as much as President Trump, and who doesn't hates to see the dead bodies, hates the killing, hates the nature of war, it's pretty difficult to escape the conclusion that unless you leave President Putin with the impression that he cannot win, he will judge that. He will judge.
- [38:34]
Joe Scarborough
His definition of winning, though.
- [38:36]
John Heilman
President Putin's definition of winning. Yes, exactly. Absolutely. And the Russians are absolutely clear about this. They will say that they want to keep the territory they have. We know that they have declared that more territory than that is theirs, that they want to tackle the causes of all of this. By which they mean NATO and all those. I mean, they're not. It's always. I know. You know this. It's always a good idea to just listen to what somebody says. Yeah.
- [39:10]
Mike Barnacle
I mean, of course, the next time that Donald Trump stands up to Vladimir Putin will be the first time. I mean, once in a while we get a little tough rhetoric and then he backs down immediately. We've seen that time and again. But let's talk about the other party in this, which is the Ukrainians. From what you've heard. Where do they stand? I mean, yes, heartened by the brief appearance with Zelensky and Trump in Rome, but where do they stand at this moment? They've had this 30 day cease fire offer out there for well over a month now. The Russians have shown no inclination to take it. Do they feel like they have the Americans back? The Americans have their back. And if not, will Europe stand up enough?
- [39:46]
John Heilman
It's a great question. And the issue, for example, about Crimea is that it's just clear that Crimea is to get back Crimea. And we've reported on this at NBC. Look, to get back Crimea was an incredibly difficult task, is frankly at this point an impossible task. Unless your timeline is decades, unless you're prepared to just hold almost a kind of a Cold War stance, will hold the line until something shifts geopolitically. So, you know, I think there's a real challenges here for the Ukrainians to say, clearly the French and the British just don't have the capability to support the Ukrainians without the US the way that the US can. And the question that gets asked about whether President Putin would launch an attack on NATO, on a NATO country, that question is missing the point that the Russians are already running a shadow war against Europe, against NATO. And that really for Putin, if you just think about his ultimate goals, all he needs to do is show that NATO is weak. He doesn't need to invade Poland, he just needs to make a move that collapses Article 5, that collapses that alliance that demonstrates you can't, you're a paper tiger. That's what he needs to do. And it's not, he doesn't need to invade a NATO country to achieve that necessarily.
- [41:21]
Joe Scarborough
Joe Keir Simmons, thank you so much for your insights on the war in Russia. Let's talk about the domestic situation in the UK right now. Jonathan Le Maire and I taking note that Keir Starmer taking a leading role in the war between Russia and Ukraine and also Liverpool taking their 20th major league title, winning the Premier League this past weekend. Obviously happy days are here again in the uk, right?
- [41:57]
John Heilman
Yeah. If you, if you're, if you're from Liverpool, it's, it's great. They stormed it. I mean, they, they didn't even, it wasn't even close in the end, Joe. So I, I, it was a great match, though. It's been a great season. And what was interesting with the Premier League this season was how tight it was aside from Liverpool. So Man City, the collapse of Man City, they are really tight and whether they're going to be able to play in Europe and people who follow the Premiership will know that there's this, the group of teams at the top of the table who will who fight over the ability to play in Europe in the following year. So yeah, great. I mean, you know, congratulations to Liverpool.
- [42:43]
Mike Barnacle
And this this year, of course top five finishers that Premier League get to go to Europe as opposed to the usual four. But this was Mika, as you well know, such a great moment for Liverpool because they did win it five years ago in 2020, but it was amidst the COVID season and they had to celebrate. No fans in the stands, there was no, no sense of joy. And at that point the squad had a 30 year title drought. This time around they win again. Five years later. The scenes from Liverpool on Sunday were out of control and people are already gearing up for the victory parade in.
- [43:10]
Joe Scarborough
A couple of weeks.
- [43:11]
Willie Geist
All right, NBC's Keir Simmons, thank you. Great to have you on set with us. Appreciate it. And coming up, Ed Loose is writing about, quote, the Dinner that Saved Europe. He'll join us to explain his latest piece straight ahead on Morning Joe.
- [43:45]
Joe Scarborough
Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.
- [43:52]
Willie Geist
All the stories that we're covering are live and happening as we speak.
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Joe Scarborough
Watch your favorite shows live.
- [43:58]
John Heilman
What's happening right now is a hostile.
- [44:00]
H
Takeover of the US Government.
- [44:02]
Joe Scarborough
Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app Citizens, since.
- [44:16]
Mika Brzezinski
We each upgraded to Xfinity in our homes, the WI fi has been booming.
- [44:20]
Joe Scarborough
It's fair to say our town has.
- [44:21]
Mika Brzezinski
Officially become a boom town.
- [44:23]
Joe Scarborough
Mayor, will I be able to drop into multiplayer gaming battles with low lag?
- [44:28]
Mika Brzezinski
The lag won't be an issue, but your questionable skills may be.
- [44:31]
Willie Geist
And what if I have hundreds of.
- [44:32]
H
Devices on the WI Fi?
- [44:33]
Willie Geist
Purely hypothetical.
- [44:35]
Mika Brzezinski
Seems like a lot. But sure, hundreds of devices all booming together with the Xfinity Gateway. Yes, friends and neighbors, with Xfinity, the WI Fi is booming.
- [44:44]
Joe Scarborough
Restrictions apply. Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
- [44:46]
John Heilman
This week on my podcast, why is this Happening?
- [44:48]
Joe Scarborough
New York Attorney General Letitia James. It's important that individuals understand that in our system of justice that there are judges independently analyzing all that we put forth, they make a determination as to whether or not our cause of action, our claim, has any merit. Based on the law, Politics stops at the door.
- [45:10]
John Heilman
That's this week on why is this happening?
- [45:12]
Joe Scarborough
Search for why is this happening?
- [45:13]
Willie Geist
Wherever you're listening right now.
- [45:14]
John Heilman
And follow.
- [45:20]
Joe Scarborough
Mr. Prime Minister.
- [45:22]
Mika Brzezinski
Mike Myers. What are you doing here?
- [45:24]
H
I just thought I'd come up and check on things.
- [45:27]
Mika Brzezinski
You live in the States.
- [45:28]
H
Yeah, but I'll always be Canadian.
- [45:31]
Mika Brzezinski
But you live in the States.
- [45:34]
H
Yeah.
- [45:35]
Mika Brzezinski
So do you remember Mr.
- [45:37]
Ed Luce
Dress up, the children's show on CBC?
- [45:39]
Mika Brzezinski
What were the names of Mr. Dress Up's two puppet friends?
- [45:42]
Ed Luce
Casey and Finnegan?
- [45:43]
Mika Brzezinski
Bud Spud. Howie Meeker, Capital Saskatchewan, Regina, Project Pip. You're a defenceman defending a two on one.
- [45:50]
Joe Scarborough
What do you do? Take away the pass, obviously.
- [45:52]
Mika Brzezinski
What are the two seasons in Toronto?
- [45:53]
Ed Luce
Winter and construction.
- [45:55]
Mika Brzezinski
Wow, you really are Canadian.
- [45:58]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah.
- [45:59]
H
But let me ask you, Mr. Prime.
- [46:00]
Joe Scarborough
Minister, will there always be a Canada?
- [46:03]
Mika Brzezinski
There will always be a Canada. All right, elbows out, elbows up.
- [46:11]
Joe Scarborough
That was comedian Mike Myers, a proud Canadian appearing in an ad for the Liberal Party party with Prime Minister Mark Carney last month ahead of national elections in Canada. Mick, I've got to say, it is, I mean, I, I don't usually follow who's running the bank of England every week. So I didn't realize, like, Mark Carney's been in the spotlight a lot before, and I understood that he'd been involved in banking for a very long time and had been an important voice in economic issues across the globe. But when I first saw that commercial, I was struck by the fact that actually Mike Myers was Mark Carney's straight man. And he carried that off so well and has such an ease about him. And also, so, you know, Canada, as our good friend J Mart said yesterday, had been borrowing a lot of, a lot of division, a lot of the tough tactics from America in their politics. And Mark Carney, you just see him in that ad, you see him on the campaign trail. And this is a guy who's calm, he is, he's connected with voters and he's extraordinarily competent. It is, it is Canada going in a direction actually opposite than how America has been going for the past 20 years with their politicians. It's really telling. You could tell he, he's an extraordinarily effective political talent for this time.
- [47:59]
Willie Geist
Right.
- [47:59]
Joe Scarborough
But again, that commercial, one of, really one of the best political ads I've seen in a very long time. And not because there's an SNL star in there, but because the real star of that ad is a guy whose name was on the ballot.
- [48:15]
Willie Geist
Right? Never in politics, and yet he's a pro and very comfortable with this moment. Mark Carney has won a full term as Canada's prime minister, marking a stunning turnaround for the country's Liberal Party. Carney called for an election after he was sworn into the position following Justin Trudeau's resignation. As of now, it is still unclear if Liberals, who have been in power for almost a decade, will be able to secure a majority government. When Carney took the stage to address his supporters last night, he mentioned Canada's relations with the US As I've been.
- [48:55]
Mika Brzezinski
Warning for months, America wants our land, our resources, our water, our country.
- [49:05]
Joe Scarborough
Never.
- [49:06]
Mika Brzezinski
These are not, these are not idle threats. President Trump is trying to break us so that America can own us. That will never, that will never, ever happen. But we, but we also must recognize the reality that our world has fundamentally changed. We are once again at one of those hinge moments of history. Our old relationship with the United States, a relationship based on steadily increasing integration, is over. The system of open global trade anchored by the United States, a system that Canada has relied on since the Second World War, a system that, while not perfect, has helped deliver prosperity for a country for decades, is over. These are tragedies, but it's also our new reality. We are over. We are over the shock of the American betrayal, but we should never forget the lessons. We have to look out for ourselves. And above all, we have to take care of each other.
- [50:30]
Willie Geist
All right, let's bring in the US national editor at the Financial Times, Ed Loos, who's here to talk about the column he has up on the FT right now. But, Ed, you're also writing about Mark Carney, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this moment. And might Democrats look to the north for a model on an answer to Trump?
- [50:55]
H
Well, I should declare, Mika, that I've known Mark since He was a PhD student in Eng in the early 90s. His wife Diana, who's English, said, come out for a drink with me with this Canadian doctoral student. And so I've known mark for 35 years, and I have to say I never expected to see this day. Not because he's not supremely qualified to be Canada's prime minister, but because his background as governor of the bank of England, having worked for Goldman Sachs in New York, all of these sort of smell of globalism to electorates that, you know, are nowadays really on the lookout for people, people who are allegedly elitist. And I think in the space of a few weeks, Trump turned those electorally suspect credentials. I think, I mean, very substantive credentials, but electorally suspect ones from being toxic into being absolutely key qualifications to manage Canada in an international climate where the economy is parlous and where you need somebody who knows how things work and what he's doing. And so it is extraordinary to see this. He's really well qualified. I just didn't expect him to win. And yesterday was the first time he's 60. It was the first time in his life he'd ever stood for public office.
- [52:26]
Anand Giridharadas
Ed, are you surprised by the speed with which this happened? As we said a minute ago, Conservatives just a couple of months ago were up by 20 points in the polling for this election. And then as President Trump began his attacks on Canadian sovereignty, continuing to talk about Canada becoming the 51st state of the United States of America. And then, of course, the 25% tariffs, it really galvanized a national movement inside Canada to push back against America. But, boy, it happened in just a couple of months.
- [52:56]
H
It did. And I mean, his opponent, who lost his seat, by the way, Pierre Polievre, the Conservative Party leader who'd been forecast to be prime minister, you know, it was almost a done deal for more than a year, a coming landslide, et cetera. His opponent had this sort of MeToo Trump line, Canada first. Carney changed it into Canada Strike, and thereby became the patriot in this race. And Polievre, because he had already sort of presented himself as essentially a Trumpian, he was in a prison not of his own making. And when Trump starts threatening, you know, Canada's economic prosperity, it's very difficult for Polievre to repudiate Trump because he's already presented himself as Trumpian. And it ought to be said, we're seeing similar dynamics happen in the Australian election, which is happening in a couple of weeks, and this is without Trump threatening to annex Australia. So even there, we're seeing the Conservative. They're actually called the Liberal Party, confusingly, in Australia, but the Conservative Liberal Party leader, Peter Dutton, is the Trumpian in the race. He's not doing well. He's been sinking for the last hundred days, and I believe so that's no coincidence.
- [54:19]
Anand Giridharadas
And Carney, despite being from the same party, will be an entirely different kind of prime minister than was Justin Trudeau. So, Ed, let's talk about the new biography we've been anticipating for quite a while around here of Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Jimmy Carter's national security adviser. Your book comes out two weeks from today. Ahead of that, you've written a guest essay for the New York Times titled The dinner that helped save Europe, referring to a dinner in 1979 and the relationship between Pope John Paul II and Dr. Brzezinski. Tell us about it.
- [54:51]
H
Well, this is actually a dinner that Mika would be better qualified to tell you about because she was there. So I mean Mika, feel free to interrupt me at any moment.
- [55:03]
Willie Geist
Well no, because I just have the stories about how the kids ruined everything. But no, you take it away on the importance of the dinner.
- [55:11]
H
Well, so this was the Pope's first visit as Pope to the United States. He'd had a meeting with Carter and then afterwards he invited Dr. Brzezinski back to the Vatican Embassy a couple of miles away from where I am for dinner. And Brzezinski said, can I bring my kids and wife? And the Pope said sure. And so he brought them all along and apparently kept winking at Mika's older brother Ian because he had turned up in dirty sort of running track stuff. He'd been hauled off a running track.
- [55:46]
Willie Geist
Ripped jeans and those boots that they all wore untied boots. But anyhow, continue please.
- [55:54]
H
The Pope put your brother at his ease I think is the. But the dinner was this extraordinary sort of beginning of a relationship between the first non Italian Pope in 453 years happening to be a Pole who Dr. Brzezinski had already met and interacted with with and the first and so far last Polish speaking national security adviser, grand strategist. And they agreed that having the Pope having met Carter, that Carter was more like a religious leader and the Pope was more like a political leader. And they laughed quite a bit about that and they repeated this joke many times over the years. The following year the Soviet Union amassed 18 divisions on the border of Poland, was on the brink of invading Poland to try and squash its wildfire Solidarity union movement which was anti communist. And this relationship between Brzezinski and the Pope. Brzezinski even had on his White House phone P for Pope so that he had a hotline to the Vatican. This relationship helped persuade the Soviet that Poland would be indigestible. It was a porcupine and it is I think perhaps the biggest accomplishment. In a way it's something that didn't happen. It's the non invasion of Poland that could have triggered World War three. And this relationship, very improbable between two Polish born world statesmen is the key reason why that didn't happen.
- [57:31]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, you know Mike Barnacle, there's always a saying in intel agencies that nobody ever writes headlines about the bombs that don't Go off. This was a possible world war that didn't go off because of the relationship between two poles and the porcupine strategy that Dr. Brzezinski and the Pope helped devise that would have made poles and maybe easy to invade, but impossible to digest. I do want to note we showed a picture of Mika earlier. Nika didn't always behave well around international leaders. We've all, all talked about Deng Xiaoping and President Carter shared that with me one time, said, no, that's true. She also ran over Minoc and begin with a golf cart, almost derailed Camp David Accords. Here though, she was well behave. She was the one person in the Brzezinski family, I think, at that meeting, Mike, that was well behaved. They made a mistake. The Pope made a mistake of having Mrs. Brzezinski Bamba sit next to Pope John Paul II. And she spent her time there peppering him with questions about when they were going to put women in the ministry. Well, you know, Joe, we can talk about these events now because they're past history and they've been released publicly, but the Secret Service was always on high alert when Miku was around a room where there was a notable like the Pope. They were always, always alert for her movements, her activities, and the fact that she might, you know, shout something that was okay, you know, but anyway. Inappropriate. Yeah. Ed, I. I would like to ask you about these two fascinating men and this one particular dinner and the. The throwback to a time when friendship between people, between leaders of the Catholic Church and National security advisors, or just friendship within the art of diplomacy is so important. And friendship in this case, I think, formed because both of these men were aware of the threat of Russia and of war, what war felt like, what the shroud of war feels like. How much of a bond, how much of a strengthening of that bond that existed happened at this dinner?
- [59:59]
H
Well, I was. That's a great question, Mike. I was fortunate enough to get hold of all the correspondence, private correspondence in Polish, which of course I got translated between Dr. Brudinski and Pope John Paul II. And it went on for many, many years. The Pope died in 2005, so it went on for 27 years. Years. And this is a correspondence between people who could, at least on the Cold War front, finish each other's sentences. But they also shared, you know, I think, concerns about the social problems facing the West. They were really interesting in how they were not triumphalist after the end of the Cold War. They were both deeply concerned that the problems would now begin to mushroom at home in Western countries, including the United States. And that proved to be kind of prophetic at a time when there was a lot of triumphalism. Understandably, because the west had won the Cold War, they turned to the next problem. So this was a stroke of luck historically to have these two poles in this position with that Cold War, World War three potential trigger. It was a real stroke of luck. But it underlines the importance of really having deep relationships, whether it's with adversaries or with friends. This is something that I think is incredibly hard to do nowadays given the sort of technologically controlled and just incredibly busy nature of public schedules. It's much harder to find the time to sit down, talk and build trust. And I think Dr. Brzezinski's life and many others underline the importance of doing that.
- [61:59]
Joe Scarborough
All right, U.S. national Editor at the Financial Times, Ed Luce, thank you so much. We so look forward to having you back to talk about sbig. Thanks for being with us today. Thank you, Mika. We'd be remiss if we didn't. You were actually in the room. I've heard you talk about otherworldly leaders and not always glowing that you were able to meet while you were growing up, but you seem to put Pope John Paul II at the top of the list. You said he was a beautiful man, absolutely wonderful. He just had an extraordinary presence. Tell us about that.
- [62:38]
Willie Geist
He did. His ability to connect upon first sight was incredible. Talked a little bit about making my brother feel comfortable, my mother feel comfortable, but really what he was able to do to galvanize the youth of the world through his time as Pope was incredible and an incredible force for the Catholic Church. And in the days after now, the death of Pope Francis, I do see some similarities in what Pope Francis was able to do and with his charm and ability to embrace difficult issues, face them, take accountability and push the church in a direction of inclusion. I was really given a lot of memories of Pope John Paul ii. Two very different popes, but they were able to galvanize people and bring them in. And it had to do with what they said, what they did through their time as Pope, but also their presence with was beautiful. He had a beautiful, wonderful, charming, loving presence. Pope John Paul II MSNBC Films presents.
- [63:54]
Joe Scarborough
A six part documentary series David Frost versus On the next episode. You think I'm gonna get on this.
- [64:01]
John Heilman
TV show and deny what I believe?
- [64:03]
Joe Scarborough
Sunday at 9:00pm Eastern on MSNBC.