Mika Brzezinski (3:41)

Let's look briefly at the headlines today, what the papers are saying. The Wall Street Journal, of course, talking about the tariffs, erasing the economy's solid outlook. Now talk of recession over 50%. UConn wins. Mika and that's nice. I will say a story we're going to be getting to and one that is deeply disturbing, is Trump eroding cyber defenses as perils increase. We're going to be talking about that in a bit, of course, the reports of Laura Loomer going in, a conspiracy theorist going into the White House and demanding the firing of top NSA officials. They were, in fact, fired. And the most disturbing on the Hill. But again, we'll see if Republicans actually do anything about it, say anything about it. The most disturbing, of course, being the man who's been in charge of America's cyber defense and has done a pretty damn good job. And this firing coming at a time when, in fact, China and Russia and other countries are more aggressively trying to break into America's cyber defenses. And China, of course, having opportunities. This was on the front page of Sunday Opinion, New York Times, and this pretty much sums it up. The world wakes up to a new global reality. The economy is deflating. I just want to say as we go through the next four hours, I think it's, I think it's important we see here, you see here that, that banks and of course, Wall street, big losers down below. You see, one of the reasons maybe that Ted Cruz was talking about bloodletting is because oil right now is just collapsing. It's, it's driving, it's being driven down towards 60. And so we're having recessions on every front. But I just, I just want you to, as we go through this and we talk about it, we're going to be talking a lot about Wall Street. We're going to Be talking about global markets. I just want you to realize that this weekend and today, this weekend, what you saw and what you're going to see today is you're going to see billionaires that work in the administration talking on networks that are pretending like there's nothing to see here. They're going to be talking to host two or millionaires who are going to be telling middle class and working class Americans, small business owners, entrepreneurs, people that have spent their entire lives building up their family restaurants are their family businesses or their family, I don't know, import export businesses. They're going to tell them, don't worry, Nothing, nothing to worry about. This had to be done. And it's just important that you remember as you're looking at everybody on Wall street looking at screens like this, small business people, right? Family, business owners, working class Americans are the ones who are not going to be protected in the end. We Learned this in 2008, right? How many bankers went to jail, how many traders went to jail? I think one maybe. So as we talk about this and we're at 30,000ft talking about the stock market and talking about banks and talking about oil and talking about all the people that we heard. Those trickle down effects are going to be felt by working Americans who can afford it the least. And they're being told by billionaires that there's nothing to see here. They're being told by millionaire talking heads on other networks there's nothing to see here. It's a war that we had doing it. No, no, let's be very, let's be very clear here. Regardless of how you feel about tariffs, this is a self induced war that we started. All right, all right. This is voluntary. I spent three months after the election warning Republicans they needed to be careful. Three months. We've got about 10 minutes of clips we could play you. We've already done it before. I could play it again. 10 minutes of clips saying be very careful. We have the strongest economy in the world, but we have bubbles in the market, stock market, we have bubbles in crypto, we have a fiscal bubble. Be very careful, manage it wisely and we will continue to see working Americans taken care of. That's not happening right now. So it's going to be fascinating to see what happens this week. What's going to happen this week with Republicans? Are they really Republicans, by the way? Republicans in Congress have the power, have the power to stop it, to moderate it, depict certain countries that they think it's gone too far. You know, there are some Republicans speaking Out. Chuck Grassley has spoken out about it. Ben Shapiro says it's unconstitutional. Bill Ackman. Ah, he saw the light. How could Bill Ackman ever have seen this coming? How, how, how can. Oh, wait a second. This is exactly what Donald Trump promised for years. In fact, he's been talking about this since 1987. All right, so he believes in this. So people on Wall street going, oh, my God, I'm so shocked. How could this ever happen? I supported him, but I really didn't think he was. What do you mean? He's been saying tariffs are beautiful, beautiful things while the rest of the world has been saying, no, they're not. They're dangerous. This is what made the Great Depression extraordinarily bad and extended it. Right. So you knew. You knew Bill Ackman. I'm sorry. Somebody at a college said something that offended you. I'm sorry. Like you. Oh, we've got to fight against the woke war. Well, I agree with that, too. But you don't have to do it by blowing up the world economy. So we'll see what happens. But here's the thing. Always remember, if you hear anybody today, tomorrow, next week, say, oh, this had to be. No, that's. That's not true. That's doublespeak. And if you hear Republicans saying we can't do anything about. That's just a lie. That's just a lie. They have the constitutional power to decide. Are 49% tariffs too much on Vietnam? Maybe it should be 20%. Let's round off the edges. Let's make it a little less tough on American businesses. E.U. are those two tough? Let, let, let, let's. Let's negotiate. Let's talk to the president. Maybe we can come together and come up with something that's not quite as extreme. You're not going to see that this week. You may not even see it next week. I just want you to know that when they're telling you this has to be done, that's not true. And when they're telling you, these Republicans on the Hill, we can't do anything about it, well, that's just a lie. It's double. Speak.

Joe Scarborough (11:19)

With that in mind, President Trump's tariffs have stock futures plummeting again. This morning. The Dow is down more than 1100 points, while the S&P 500 and the NASDAQ have both dropped by 3%. This follows a market free fall to end the trading week, capped off by the Dow losing 2200 points on Friday. It was the first time that the index had ever lost more than 1500 points in back to back days. The massive losses were also fueled by China announcing on Friday it would impose a 34% tariff on all goods imported from the United States beginning this Thursday. Meanwhile, President Trump continues to downplay the tanking markets, writing on social media last night that his tariffs are a beautiful thing to behold. Minutes after that post, he spoke to reporters on Air Force One.

David Rhode (12:19)

There's been some speculation, partly because of.

Richard Haass (12:22)

The video that was posted on Truth.

Joe Scarborough (12:24)

Social, that there was some sort of.

Mika Brzezinski (12:26)

Deliberate effort on your part to have.

David Rhode (12:29)

The market sell off.

Mika Brzezinski (12:31)

Can you talk about that one? No, that's not so. But I do want to solve the deficit problem that we have with China, with the European Union and other nations. And they're going to have to do that. And if they want to talk about that, I'm open to talk. But otherwise why would I want to talk?

Joe Scarborough (12:49)

Is there pain in the market at some point?

Mika Brzezinski (12:52)

You're unwilling to tolerate this idea.

Joe Scarborough (12:54)

But Trump put is there a threshold?

Mika Brzezinski (12:56)

I think your question is so stupid. I mean I think it's a, I don't want anything to go down, but sometimes you have to take medicine to fix something. So Mika, of course you had the administration officials, mainly billionaires. It's quite a look, isn't it? While working class Americans and middle class Americans are getting lined for new recession where they're suffering, billionaires are sent out to talk. But, but this is, this is from the Washington Post, some quotes here. It's actually Elon Musk of course, said that he hoped that the United States would eliminate tariffs, got into a fight with other members of the administration. You actually have Charles Koch leading a lawsuit against the tariffs while Republicans in both chambers are organizing a legislative effort to roll enough yet for it to matters. And this bill, Bill Ackman said the risk of not doing so will drive the economy into a recession, possibly a severe one. And he talked about a economic nuclear winter. Well, but then again, you know, somebody said something on a college campus that upset Bill once. Benjamin Ben Shapiro, the right wing pundit and co founder of Daily Wire called tariffs, quote, probably un Constitutional. What? As far as whether it's constitutional or not, the president has declared emergency powers right now and is using, using actually vehicles that never been used before for tariffs. So there is a constitutional question. I don't know how the Supreme Court's going to again conclude this, but any power the president has here has been given by Congress. Congress can take it back if they choose. Again, they probably won't choose to because I don't it's again, one way out of this. I wonder, I wonder what legislators in Texas and Oklahoma and other oil states are seeing as we go towards 60 and then it goes, oil goes below 60 and I mean, it seems like they're going to just sit back and let the economy implode if we keep moving in this direction. I hope we don't. I'm really hoping that, that again, sort of there will be a moderating influence on these, these extreme tariff numbers. But right now doesn't look like any Republicans willing to do that.

Joe Scarborough (15:23)

Well, and President Trump's cabinet officials hit the Sunday talk shows to defend his tariffs and we heard some conflicting messages. Here are Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant and Commerce Secretary Howard Lutenick.

Mika Brzezinski (15:38)

The president on Saturday urging people, quote, to hang tough, saying it won't be easy. And I guess the big question on people's minds, Mr. Secretary, how difficult is it going to be and how long are Americans going to have to hang tough? Well, again, I reject that the assumption there doesn't have to be a recession. Who knows how the market is going to react in a day, in a week. What we are looking at is building the long term economic fundamentals for prosperity. Can you help provide some clarity for folks? How long will this period of uncertainty be? Are we talking about weeks, are we talking about months, Are we talking about years? Again, this is an adjustment process. So let me just ask you, is President Trump willing to negotiate or are these tariffs permanent? Well, I think that's going to be a decision for President Trump. But I can tell you that as only he can do at this moment, he's created maximum leverage for himself. And more than 50 countries have approached, have approached the administration about lowering their non tariff trade barriers, lowering their tariffs, stopping currency manipulation. And Chris, they've been bad actors for a long time and it's not the kind of thing you can negotiate away in days or weeks. There is no postponing. They are definitely going to stay in place for days and weeks. That is sort of obvious. The president needs to reset global trade. Everybody has a trade surplus and we have a trade deficit. We are paying away our future and our lives. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, I'm just curious, Richard Haass, if you've been seeing the treasury secretary over the past week, he looks about as comfortable as a New York Giants head coach predicting a Super bowl championship next year. He is not Scott Bassett, not comfortable with what's going on. You can see he's not comfortable with what's going on. Because he doesn't know a single person around him that he's worked with for the past 30 years in, in the markets comfortable with what's going on.

Jon Meacham (17:58)

It's exactly right. Look, Joe, let's just call this what it is. And you got at it. One is this is an economic war of choice. This is not something that had to happen. This is, you know, what football players would call an own goal. Second of all, the president, I have the quote here. He says that sometimes you have to take medicine to fix something. The problem was the patient wasn't sick. This is economic, this is economic malpractice. Let's call it for what it is. It's created problems rather than fix them. So when Scott Bessing goes out and he talks to his friends, of course he can't find anybody who's going to support what is, what, what is going on. And then, you know, the mixed signals make a bad situation worse. So let's just, just, let's just call it for what it is. It's totally self created. And the real question is, seems to me, you know, one, how do we get ourselves out of it? But we shouldn't hit ourselves on another thing. Even if there is a degree of economic recovery, someday there will be in the markets, a lot of the damage here will be lasting. The United States will not again ever have the same reputation. The dollar won't have the same strength. The rest of the world's willingness to tolerate American debt will be much diminished. This will have lasting consequences. Even if at some point what's become our 301 becomes a 351, even if it doesn't recover fully to a 401k, even if there's a degree of financial recovery, the reputational cost of this will be deep and lasting.

Mika Brzezinski (19:29)

It's pretty extraordinary right now. I want to underline though, and I think this is very important. As you hear Bill Ackman being shocked by what's going on and you hear Elon Musk actually striking back at other members in the administration. Jonathan Lemire it bears repeating for those on Wall street who are acting shocked, for those in middle America shocked by what's going on right now, it bears repeating. President Trump, when he was candidate Trump on the campaign trail constantly promised this is exactly what he was going to do.

David Rhode (20:09)

This is not a surprise. Now the severity of it took aback even some of Trump's supporters. But he told us he was going to do this. He was at rallies night after night all over this country and was cheered when he said he would levy these tariffs against China and the rest. Now, what we've seen here is business leaders had convinced themselves this was a bluff, this was a negotiating tactic. They recall his first term where yes, he did put some tariffs in place, but they were not as big as expected. They had sort of minimal impact. He took them off, put them back on, took them off. They thought this was a negotiating ploy. Even in the early weeks of his term, he was really inconsistent, consistent with the application of tariffs, willing to hold off on things, willing to reduce things. But now they're here. Liberation Day arrived and the tariffs were very real and they were significant. And business leaders just now and some of his billionaire friends are catching up with what that really means. And it's not just them, of course, this is impacting everyday Americans. A significant part of Americans, this is not something that just matters to billionaires. A significant part of Americans do have money in the markets. They have retirement accounts. They've watched them evaporate over the last two days and preparing for more losses today. And also in the weeks, days and weeks ahead, we're going to see the impact with prices as well as the goods that are coming overseas with these new tariffs will suddenly cost a lot more. And these are voters, many of them Trump voters, who are going to pay as much of a price here as anyone else. He told us he was going to do it and at least for now he's sticking with it, pain be damned.

Joe Scarborough (21:51)

We want to get right to cnbc. The anchor of Worldwide Exchange, Frank Holland, is with us. Frank, tell us what things are looking like.

Chris Hayes (21:59)

Well, Meek and Joe, good morning to you. Great to see you as always. So I think most of us are familiar with the idea of the rule of threes, but when it comes to a potentially historic three day sell off, looking at futures, all three major indices down 2 1/2% or more, sparked by the tariff and Trump policy of the Trump administration, investors, they just continue to try to figure out what are the rules and what's coming up next. So here's what we know for sure right now. More than $5 trillion in US stock market value wiped away on Thursday and Friday. Another $2 trillion in market value around the world if you exclude the US and the reciprocal tariffs scheduled for April 9, they are still on the table. So today, Morgan Stanley out saying to expect another 7 to 8% decline in the S&P 500 as tariffs weigh on the economy and investor sentiment. We seem to get some clarity about those April 9 tariffs from the president yesterday where he said he'd be open to deal with China. That follows a lot of conflicting reports for about if the tariffs are in fact negotiable. But unlike other times when the administrational reports indicated a deal or possibly a more measured approach was on the table, the markets, they did not respond positively today. So on my show, Worldwide Exchange, we had a highly respected market voice, Stephanie Link of Hightower. She says she's buying some stocks, in particular Meta and Chipotle, seeing some opportunity in those declines. However, our Jim Cramer, taking the complete other side of the argument, he advised against any quote, unquote, buying the dip today. He also said he would hold cash until we see a potential response from the EU on these tariffs. And this morning we're getting a lot of international response. Today, the German economic minister talking pretty tough about standing up to the U.S. also, the prime minister of Japan scheduled to talk to the president this morning. And China today also accusing the US of quote, unquote, economic bullying when it comes to tariffs, even calling on representatives of American companies, including Tesla, to take concrete actions to resolve these tariffs. And with all this, we have several big banks raising their odds of a recession. Our exclusive CNBC CEO survey today, released today, has nearly 60% of CEOs seeing a recession this year. And then, of course, we got something coming up one month from today. We have a Fed decision, a lot of questions about how our central bank will respond to all this uncertainty.

Mika Brzezinski (24:03)

All right, Frank Collins, cnbc. Frank, thank you so much. Good to see you all. Hold on tight, baby. It's going to be a crazy day. Crazy day. You know, Caddy, we've had people buying the dip on Thursday and Friday and getting crushed. Seems to me anybody. Frank was just talking about, you know, people going on his show talking about buying the dip. It seems like deciding to go swim when the red flags are out in Pensacola beach and there's a massive undertow. We really, again, because this isn't driven by market forces. This is driven by what the President United States decides he's going to do next, it seems, unless you can read Donald Trump's mind. And I've yet to find anybody who can actually read Donald Trump's mind. This seems to be very perilous, in fact, perilous for foreign governments who don't know what's coming next.

Richard Haass (25:01)

Okay, full disclaimer. When Morning Joe is coming to me for the idea of stock market tips and whether we should be buying the dip. You really know the world has gone crazy, right?

Mika Brzezinski (25:10)

Exactly.

Richard Haass (25:12)

So, I mean, I think there are sort of short term and long term calculations. And every foreign leader in Europe, as with every trader that Frank was talking to, has been watching what the members of the administration were saying over the weekend and what the president said last night for some kind of hints about how long this is all going to last. Is this the new regime that is going to be in place in America for the next six months, year, three years, in which case investors into the country will have to start thinking, actually, maybe I do have to start thinking about building that factory. But nobody really seems to believe that's the case. You've got the president touting the fact and the president's aides touting the fact that you've got foreign leaders calling to make backroom deals if they can, around these tariffs. And that that adds to the confusion. When I was in Germany recently and I was speaking to people who do infrastructure projects, they told me, look, if I'm thinking of building a factory in the US or some kind of infrastructure project, that's a five year or ten year proposition in that period of time. You can have a midterm, you're going to have a general election, you're going to have another midterm, you can have another general election. How on earth do I rely on the fact that this is going to be the status quo for the United States in its trading relationships with other countries? I can't possibly. So for the moment, people are just thinking, right, I'm going to sit tight, not make any investment decisions. And that, that economists are telling me is one of the worst things for the U.S. economy. And that's why everyone's talking about not just this stock market collapse, but the prospect of a recession in America rising considerably.

Mika Brzezinski (26:42)

Well, and the possibility also coming of stagflation increasing again, it seems to me most of the big banks upping their predictions on recession hitting the United States later this year. Again, when we come back, we're going to be talking to Jon Meacham about the world waking up to a new global reality and following up on what Richard's talking about, what it means for the United States and its role in the world.

Joe Scarborough (27:07)

Also still ahead on Morning Joe, President Trump fires the head of the National Security Agency. We're going to talk about the implications of that move and how it's part of a broader pattern of Trump taking vengeance on his perceived enemies. Plus, a federal judge has ordered the Trump administration to return a Maryland man who is mistakenly deported to a notorious prison in El Salvador. We'll have the latest on that Legal fight Morning Joe. Back in 90 seconds.

Rachel Maddow (27:46)

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Mika Brzezinski (28:15)

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Author and YouTuber John Green on his book Everything Is the History and Persistence of Our Deadliest Infection. I think of the story of human health as like this long staircase that we're walking up. You know, you start out with Hippocrates telling people like, don't even bother treating this.

Rachel Maddow (28:35)

It's totally impossible.

Mika Brzezinski (28:37)

And Then eventually in 1882, Robert Koch figures out it's infectious. And then we develop chest X rays and better diagnostics and then we develop really good antibiotics and now people are able to be cured of tuberculosis. And we're walking up and up and up the staircase and I want to be clear, like we didn't take like two or three steps down the staircase, we fell down the stairc. That's what's happening right now. That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.

Rachel Maddow (29:04)

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Joe Scarborough (29:14)

I do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here.

Rachel Maddow (29:20)

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Mika Brzezinski (29:36)

Plans were ever implemented, the country would sink into prolonged recession. A few examples his proposed 35% tariff like penalties would instigate a trade war and that would raise prices for consumers, kill our export jobs, and lead entrepreneurs and businesses of all stripes to flee America. But you say, wait, wait, wait. Isn't he a huge business success? Doesn't he know what he's talking about? No, he isn't and no he doesn't. Successfully bringing jobs home requires serious policy and reforms that make America the place businesses want to come, want to plant, and want to grow. You can't punish business into doing what.

Joe Scarborough (30:26)

You want that was former Republican Utah Senator Mitt Romney back in 2016, making the case Donald Trump arguing that if Trump were to win the presidency, his policies would lead to a recession.

Mika Brzezinski (30:43)

So, John Meacham, interesting, interesting hearing Mitt Romney from nine years ago, I guess, my gosh, nine years ago, offering that warning. And it's a warning that we've heard time and time and time again. And yet here we are. What is the impact, do you think, short term and long term, on the United States and its standing in the world?

Katie Kay (31:09)

Well, the grand answer, the universal answer is, as you said and you've written about the order that really began with World War II, victory in World War II, and the institutions that President Truman and President Eisenhower and presidents of both parties, administrations of Congresses of both parties basically supported and strengthened, which was that we were, in fact, at the center of what we hoped would be the march, however, perhaps stutter step at times of liberal democracy. As the Wall Street Journal said, free trade, free men, the free exchange of ideas, we would actually tear down walls, not build them. And in that sense, the old saw was democracies trade with each other. They don't go to war with each other. And so that's the big view. Right? It's a slightly more elemental one, which I think is still is large, is, as Lincoln said, all of us act on incentive. And basically the question is going to be, will President Trump succeed in sufficient ways with what's unfolding that it continues to feed and meet whatever incentive he set for himself? And it's pretty straightforward. Seems to me, as we've been talking about, suddenly he might actually start hearing from some Republican senators who are hearing from the international businesses that are in their states. But until, if and until the president shifts his incentive structure in his mind to judge how he's successful and how he's not, then I think we continue to head off this cliff. If he changes that, if he decides that his success is somehow going to be strengthened by doing something different, then he'll do it. But the fact that we're all talking about and everything I've said is wrapped up in the will and whims of one man is what we weren't supposed to have to deal with in this country. But here we are.

Jon Meacham (33:31)

Hey, John, let me just push you a little bit. Just say the president one day hears enough criticism and declares victory and walks back at least some of the tariffs. To what extent, though, does the rest of the world, even if they breathe something of a sigh of relief, to what extent, though Is there still no going back? That if we look at this 80 year run, the fact that this president got reelected, he's done this radical stuff on tariffs, he's done what he's done on Ukraine and Russia and so forth, to what extent, essentially is the damage essentially done? And this order, this economic and strategic order that's run eight decades has pretty much now run its course.

Katie Kay (34:14)

I fear you're right. It's the kind of question that I would think, you know, I need an answer to, that I should find. Richard Haas. So I think, you know, I remember President Biden's story about Emmanuel Macron and the President. President Biden walks into an early meeting and says, America is back. And Macron, I believe it was, Macron says, yes, but for how long? Well, it turned out it was 48 months. And so I think this is long term. As you know, Richard, part of the thinking of the key figures and the architects of this era, including Franklin Roosevelt, was there was a significant amount of personal trust that had to be part of the lives of nations. FDR said in his last inaugural, we've learned that the only way to have a friend is to be one. And you don't bully friends into doing what you want. You build relationships, you show that there's reciprocity, and you show that you can be there even when not particularly convenient for you. What we've now done, and I say we, because 49.9%, a dispositive number of Americans voted for it is we've decided to walk away from something, as you have said, and I agree with, in this kind of economic war of choice. Final point, if you're Donald Trump, what in the. Since Mitt Romney gave that speech in the last eight years, what in your life experience suggests that there's any price to pay for anything at all? I just, just sit with that for a second. Right. This is a very element. This is a man who is pretty, pretty much transparent.

Mika Brzezinski (36:06)

Right.

Katie Kay (36:06)

I mean, we can sort of see, you know, if you didn't listen about the tariffs, you should have, you know. But so what is it about the experience he's had that would enable him to moderate? I worry that there's not a lot.

Joe Scarborough (36:22)

All right, on that note, we've got to get to the other big story making headlines this morning. So after the break, we're going to talk about President Trump's firing of the head of the national security agency and U.S. cyber command. It's rattled lawmakers and may have weakened America's cyber defenses at a time when risks, especially around our elections, are on the rise. We'll have that in just a moment.

Mika Brzezinski (36:48)

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Mika Brzezinski (36:58)

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Mika Brzezinski (37:15)

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David Rhode (37:19)

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Rachel Maddow (37:26)

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Mika Brzezinski (37:45)

There's probably both messaging and policy issues, but as you look to kind of where the Democratic Party is, do you think it's more a messaging issue, more a policy issue?

Rachel Maddow (37:55)

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Joe Scarborough (38:08)

All right, 20 minutes before the top of the hour, a live look at the White House as the sun has yet to come up over Washington. Our other big story this morning the New York Times noting that President Trump's firing of the head of the national security agency and U.S. cyber Command has rattled lawmakers and may have weakened America's cyber defenses at a time when risks are on the rise. Air Force General Timothy D. Ha was dismissed on Thursday after far right conspiracy theorist Laura Loomer met with the president and reportedly advised Trump to fire him, claiming Ha was disloyal. According to the paper, Ha, his removal is the latest in a series of moves that have stripped down America's cyber defenses. Reading from the Times, quote, his dismissal came after weeks in which the Trump administration swept away nearly all of the government's election related cyber defenses beyond the secure NSA command centers at Fort Meade, Maryland. At the same time, the administration has shrunk much of the nation's complex early warning system for cyber attacks, a web through which tech firms work with the FBI and intelligence agencies to protect the power grid, also pipelines and telecommunication networks. Jonathan lemere let's talk about this. Was this key firing because of the advice of a conspiracy theorist?

David Rhode (39:44)

In part, yes. We know that Donald Trump throughout the campaign promised retribution. He believed that in his first term the deep state worked against him and that there were guardrails in his administration. This time around, we have no guardrails. There's no HR McMaster in the room. This time, there's no John Kelly. It is people like Stephen Miller who are totally empowered. And we have seen him systematically purge the ranks of people believed to be disloyal to him. Laura Loomer came into the White House conspiracy theorist. You recall she spent a lot of time with him on the road over the summer. Eventually, it raised so many eyebrows that members of the Trump team pushed her off Air Force One. So she's been less around of late. That changed last week. And she came into the meeting, National Security Advisor Waltz was there as well, trying to defend members of his team. And she pointed out by name those that she deemed disloyal, some of whom worked for General Mark Milley, the former joint chief chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who is, of course, Trump is perceived as an enemy. So that is, at least in part what is going around on right now, is that it's a purge. Conspiracy theorist has had her voice, listen, and the timing suggests this played a real role. And now there are no guardrails to check that this time around. So let's bring in NBC News national security editor David Rhode for more. David, I mean, we have gone on many times on this show about how dangerous a character Laura Loomer is, a bigot, we can just say it. But let's talk about the impact of these moves right now, because it comes at a moment where cyber attacks, of course, are on the rise. And the people that I talked to over the weekend about this say these dismissals, leaving the US Extremely vulnerable at a time of real global tension and would be particularly susceptible to attack at the next election.

Jonathan Lemire (41:32)

And that's the real fear here. So General hall, who was fired, he has worked for 30 years in the Air Force. He worked for Republican and Democratic administrations. His deputy, Wendy noble, joined the NSA as a civilian in 1987 during the Reagan administration and worked her way up. You have Laura Loomer, who is 31 years old, has run twice for Congress and lost. And she is a podcaster who's getting these two people with tremendous expertise fired. And there's no clear evidence that they are disloyal. It was simply what she herself posted on X was simply that they worked under the Biden administration and they were therefore disloyal. And there's an unprecedented threat, I think, economically ransomware for Americans themselves, for American companies, is Bigger than ever. And most of all, China. China. Salt typhoon. The massive and unprecedented penetration of the whole US Telecommunications system by Chinese government hackers is extraordinary. And now we are, I think, less able to defend ourselves from that threat.

David Rhode (42:33)

So, Richard, let's get you in on this. I mean, we know this is part of how nations go to war or at least prod other rivals vulnerabilities, is by cyber attacks. This would seem to be exactly the wrong time to weaken our defenses.

Jon Meacham (42:52)

This is unilateral surrender. Cyber is an ongoing war. What's so interesting about it? Normally we think, you know, when you cross borders with armies, okay, that's obviously war. Well, we cross borders with cyber attacks. Since this show has begun, thousands have happened. This is an ongoing conflict in the world. So this kind of taking down our defenses makes no sense. Also, in listening to David, there seems to me there's a difference going on here. President got rid of people like CQ Brown, the chairman of, to join chiefs of staff and other, because they were, quote, unquote, you know, interested in diversity or they worked for Joe Biden. I get that. This, though, seems to me more than the purge of generals. This seems to me almost a kind of grievance. I wonder. It's always dangerous to talk about motives, but the president has had a running battle with cyber authorities for years over particularly Russian attacks on America and whether that affected previous elections. Is this, in some ways, do you think, linked to that, that this is about his longstanding grievance over cyber authorities who have public said Russia has in fact attacked the United States for the purpose of manipulating our politics?

Jonathan Lemire (43:55)

It is. And this is the core problem of our age, like what is fact and what isn't. And that's, you know, going back to Laura Loomer's role, she has said that the 911 attacks were an inside job. She said that the wife of Governor DeSantis, Casey DeSantis, lied about having cancer. And those claims are not true. So it's alarming. And it does play into this sense of grievance, though, that there wasn't Russian influence in the, you know, in the 2020 election or the 2016 election. Again, Marco Rubio, as the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee or vice chair, agreed to this report that came out in 2017 after that. But about that there was Russian interference. So basic facts are being changed, and it does create a vulnerability in terms of foreign influence in future elections.

Richard Haass (44:44)

David, what's your reasoning behind this? Because we know the history of the impact of foreign interference, particularly through cyber on US Elections. So why. And we know that it hasn't stopped. As Richard was saying, we have trade wars, we have cyber wars. Thank God, at the moment, we don't have a shooting war, but let's see what happens with that one. Why would it be that there's a movement inside the White House that says we shouldn't be protecting ourselves from cyberattacks from Russia potentially. What's the ideological thinking that underpins that?

Jonathan Lemire (45:22)

There's a belief that it's simply made up by Democrats to censor Republicans to undermine President Trump. And there was actually. One of the findings of Biden administration cyber officials was that Iran ran fake propaganda against Donald Trump in 2024. It was an explicit campaign. Iran did not want, want Trump to be reelected. Arguably, he's been tougher on Iran than Biden was. But even that wasn't enough. It's just a continuing sense that of censorship and that any, any effort to regulate speech or any effort to hold social media platforms accountable for speech is some liberal effort. It's. It's a very troubling pattern because, again, foreign countries will take advantage of that. They don't. It's not about, like, like, frankly, one candidate or the other. It's about sowing confusion and division in the United States. It's about making Americans doubt the results of elections. Who actually won, who won how many votes. And that deeply divides our society and is incredibly dangerous.

Mika Brzezinski (46:22)

So, David, let's talk about. Speaking of incredibly dangerous, let's talk about how Americans could be impacted in their daily lives because cyber wars, Richard says the threats are becoming greater. You brought up our telecom systems being hacked into by the Chinese when we let our cyber defenses down. I know we've all been talking about elections here, but let's talk about what impacts Americans every day. Power grids being hacked into, water supplies being hacked into, entire systems being shut down, phone systems being shut down, banking systems being shut down. These are the threats that the general who was fired and so many people work on every day. Because if you're sitting out there and you think that anybody's catastrophizing when we say that the Chinese, the Russians, the Iranians, you name it, all of the people who consider the United States an enemy are. If you think they are not trying to shut down our power grids, shut down our water supplies, shut down our banking systems, shut down the world, our airline defenses, air traffic control, they're trying to do it every single day. David, how does that impact this? And how do. For God's sake, How do Republicans on the Hill counter this threat? How do they step in? What needs to be done to make sure that these systems that the Chinese have already began hacking in on, that these systems are protected?

Jonathan Lemire (48:03)

You need to work more with the private sector because there's many innovative tech companies that can help with this, that has decreased under this administration. And you're absolutely right. It's hybrid warfare. If there's some sort of, you know, confrontation over Taiwan with China, the Chinese will and there's actually military engagement. There's no question they will shut down power grids. There's been reporting by my colleagues about water systems near US Military bases having Chinese, you know, cyber weapons inside of the systems to shut them down. They'll shut down the financial system, the communications system to paralyze the U.S. so it's an extraordinarily dangerous and sort of backward movement when we're facing a new form of national security threat. One of the officials quoting the time said this was the equivalent. It was a former Biden administration official saying this is the equivalent of letting down the drawbridge and opening up the United States to even more cyber attacks.

Joe Scarborough (48:58)

All right. NBC News national security editor David Rhode will be following this with you. Thank you very much for coming on this morning. And coming up, a federal judge has ordered the US Government to return the Maryland man who was mistakenly deported to El Salvador's notorious mega prison, saying federal officials had acted without legal basis and his detention appears wholly lawless. We'll dig into that new development ahead on MORNING joe. All right. Few minutes before the top of the hour. Time now to take a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. Parts of the south and Midwest will finally get a break this week after days of unrelenting storms. There are at least 18 deaths connected with the severe weather from Kentucky to Arkansas. Severe flooding has prompted water rescues, road closures and evacuation orders. In Texas, a second child has died from measles amid a fast growing outbreak in that state. According to the Children's Hospital in Lubbock, the eight year old girl was receiving treatment for complications from measles while hospitalized. HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Who has faced criticism for his handling of the outbreak, attended the child's funeral yesterday. According to the New York Times, he met with the family but did not speak at the ceremony. Since January, there have nearly been been 500 cases of measles in Texas alone.

Mika Brzezinski (50:33)

And of course, Jonathan O'Mear, we just have to say here again, measles eradicated around 2000. It has been a deliberate effort to undermine vaccines, to undermine the efficacy of measles vaccines. And, and, and talk about basically hocus pocus, witchcraft, you know, saying, oh, if you do this or if you do that, when we have a safe and effective vaccine that eradicated measles, this is a choice. And this is a choice that people like the HHS secretary had been, like, pushing on parents across America to not do what he did with his children and give them a vaccine.

David Rhode (51:18)

Yeah, these are the consequences. Measles eradicated. But over the last couple of decades, we've had a systematic effort to undermine the confidence in vaccines. We've now seen measles on the rise, a second child has lost their life. And at the forefront of these conspiracy theories attacking vaccines, the Health Secretary of the United States.

Mika Brzezinski (51:41)

Yeah, I mean, if he wants to stop going to children's funerals, if he wants to stop having to do these, be at these tragic events, he can just tell the truth. He can just tell the truth about the measles vaccine and get on the forefront of aggressively promoting it. So these children in Texas, their parents, their family members, children across America don't have to suffer what? My God, Nobody, nobody was having to endure at the turn of the century because we had eradicated measles.

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