Morning Joe 5/13/25

Summary

Morning Joe Episode Summary – May 13, 2025

Hosted by Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski, with contributions from Willie Geist and guest experts.

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1. Healthcare Advocacy

Timestamp: [00:00 - 00:31]

Joe Scarborough opens the episode emphasizing the non-partisan necessity of healthcare access. Highlighting the role of Planned Parenthood, he urges donations to ensure continued services without judgment.

• Joe Scarborough: “No matter what's happening in our country, people still need health care.” ([00:00])
• Willie Geist: “That should be obvious, right?” ([00:12])

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2. Sports Update: Knicks vs. Celtics Showdown

Timestamp: [02:56 - 06:55]

The panel discusses last night's intense basketball game between the Knicks and the Celtics, focusing on the dramatic comeback by the Knicks and the critical injury to Celtics star Jayson Tatum.

• Mika Brzezinski: “Our Red Sox losing like 13 to 1… just wild.” ([03:49])
• Willie Geist: “The injury to Jayson Tatum… puts him out for a year.” ([04:10])
• David Ignatius: “An Achilles injury...one of the worst injuries a basketball player can suffer.” ([05:04])
• Willie Geist: “For Knicks fans, you're one game away now with three shots to win one game from the Eastern Conference finals.” ([06:55])

Key Insights:

• The Knicks secured a significant win, bolstering their position in the Eastern Conference.
• Jayson Tatum's potential Achilles injury could have long-term impacts on the Celtics' season.

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3. Air Traffic Controller Shortage and Airport Delays

Timestamp: [07:00 - 17:47]

The discussion shifts to a critical shortage of air traffic controllers affecting major airports, notably Newark International. The panel examines the causes, current impacts, and potential solutions to prevent future disruptions.

• Frank Holland: “Flights were delayed for several hours yesterday at Newark International Airport.” ([07:00])
• Mika Brzezinski: “They are going to have to make very dramatic decisions and they're going to have to be a ton of planes grounded until they get their arms around this.” ([08:40])
• Stanley McChrystal: “The FAA governs all of this… It's a tragedy that's waiting to happen.” ([12:02])

Key Insights:

• Critical understaffing has led to severe flight delays, with only one controller handling up to 180 planes.
• The aging workforce and inadequate modernization of the air traffic control system are major contributors.
• Panelists advocate for increased recruitment, higher pay, and raising the retirement age to mitigate the crisis.

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4. President Trump's Middle East Visit and Business Deals

Timestamp: [17:48 - 27:01]

President Trump's four-day trip to the Middle East is analyzed, focusing on his meetings with Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and the pursuit of significant investment deals. The panel discusses the geopolitical implications and Trump's economic strategies.

• David Ignatius: “Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates have become increasingly important strategically for the United States.” ([18:48])
• Willie Geist: “Crown Prince greeted President Trump at the airport… they created a template that was his.” ([23:15])
• Mika Brzezinski: “The center of power has shifted in the Middle East.” ([20:46])

Key Insights:

• The trip aims to secure up to $1 trillion in investments from Saudi Arabia, though skepticism remains about achieving this target.
• The strengthening of strategic alliances with Middle Eastern countries underscores a shift in regional power dynamics.
• Concerns arise about Trump's relationship with Saudi royalty and the potential influence on U.S. foreign policy.

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5. US-China Tariffs and Market Reactions

Timestamp: [27:01 - 35:42]

The panel delves into the recent temporary rollback of tariffs between the United States and China, examining its effects on the stock market and broader economic implications.

• Frank Holland: “The markets rallied after the US and China agreed to slash tariffs for 90 days.” ([27:49])
• Jim VandeHei: “Goldman Sachs cut their estimated risk of a recession in the United States to 35%.” ([27:49])
• Mika Brzezinski: “People are reassessing everything and thinking this is the end of war tariffs.” ([30:04])
• Stanley McChrystal: “Trump's protectionist instincts are causing mass uncertainty in trade policy.” ([31:04])

Key Insights:

• The tariff rollback triggered significant market gains, with major indices posting their best days since April.
• Economists are optimistic, reducing recession risks following the tariff easing.
• Ongoing uncertainty about the future of trade policies and their long-term impacts on the economy persist.

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6. Appointment of New Acting Librarian of Congress

Timestamp: [38:25 - 39:12]

A brief segment covers President Trump's appointment of his former criminal defense lawyer as the acting Librarian of Congress, sparking calls for an investigation from Democrats.

• Frank Holland: “President Trump's former criminal defense lawyer will now be the acting Librarian of Congress.” ([39:24])
• Democrats: "Calling for an inspector general investigation into the move, including the possible transfer of congressional files." ([39:24])

Key Insights:

• The abrupt appointment has raised concerns about the transparency and motivations behind leadership changes in key governmental positions.
• Democratic opposition emphasizes the need for accountability and scrutiny over such appointments.

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7. Guest Segment: Character in American Politics with General Stanley McChrystal

Timestamp: [42:15 - 53:43]

Retired four-star General Stanley McChrystal discusses his new book, "Choices that Define a Life," focusing on the importance of character in leadership and society. The conversation explores how personal accountability and discipline shape both individual lives and national identity.

• Mika Brzezinski: “Character… it took an inflection point for you to stop and reexamine your life.” ([43:29])
• General McChrystal: “Character is the essential quality you need to know who you can count on when it's really bad.” ([46:26])
• Jonathan Lemire: “Discipline is not just military parade ground… it's having the discipline to live up to your convictions.” ([51:35])

Key Insights:

• General McChrystal emphasizes that character is foundational to effective leadership and resilience, especially in times of crisis.
• He advocates for a national conversation on character, suggesting it should be a key criterion in various leadership roles.
• The discussion highlights the current state of character in America, noting both challenges and the potential for rebuilding through discipline and accountability.

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Conclusion

The May 13, 2025 episode of Morning Joe covered a wide array of topics, from healthcare and sports to pressing national issues like air traffic control shortages and international trade. The episode culminated in a profound discussion on the role of character in leadership and society, urging a collective reflection on values and accountability.

Notable Quotes:

• Joe Scarborough: “No matter what's happening in our country, people still need health care.” ([00:00])
• Willie Geist: “The injury to Jayson Tatum… puts him out for a year.” ([04:10])
• Mika Brzezinski: “This is an emergency… they need to act like it's an emergency.” ([16:15])
• General McChrystal: “Character is the essential quality you need to know who you can count on when it's really bad.” ([46:26])

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For those who missed the episode, this summary provides an in-depth overview of the key discussions, insights, and conclusions shared by the Morning Joe team and their guests.

Transcript

[Joe Scarborough]

You know we love a good debate, right? Digging deep on the issues, it's kind of our thing. But here's something that shouldn't need in depth analysis. No matter what's happening in our country, people still need health care.

[Willie Geist]

That should be obvious, right?

[Joe Scarborough]

That's why Planned Parenthood health centers are here to provide birth control, cancer screenings, abortion and more without judgment. But they can't do it alone. If you believe everyone deserves access to care, donate [e-mail] defend because healthcare shouldn't be up for debate.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Running a business means I wear lots of hats. Luckily, when it's time to put on.

[Jim VandeHei]

My hiring hat, I can count on.

[Mika Brzezinski]

LinkedIn to make it easy. I can post a job for free.

[David Ignatius]

Or pay to promote it and get.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Three times more qualified candidates. Imagine finding your next great hire in 24 hours. 86% of small businesses do with LinkedIn. I can also easily share my job with my network. No other job site lets me do that. Post your free [e-mail] acquire that's LinkedIn.com acquire. Terms and conditions apply. I don't think any of us expected him to accept a luxury 747 jet from Qatar. That's Qatari Air Force One. You know their slogan. Yes, yes, speak louder into the tray table. Qatar is giving us a plane that Trump gets to keep.

[Jonathan Lemire]

He's like the reverse Oprah.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I get a jet and that's it. I yeah. The 89 passenger luxury plane has wood finishes, custom carpets and gold walls. The only thing it doesn't have is.

[Jonathan Lemire]

A way to safely land at Newark Airport.

[Mika Brzezinski]

That's the only thing it doesn't have.

[Frank Holland]

We're gonna have much more on both those stories.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Actually, no plane can land safely there.

[Frank Holland]

Yeah. Well, and now apparently the problem might not just be at Newark. We'll get to that in a moment. And more on this gift to President Trump, including criticism coming from some Republican senators. Meanwhile, the President is in Saudi Arabia this morning kicking off a four day trip across the Middle East. We'll go through what he's hoping to accomplish while overseas. Also ahead, we'll dig into the temporary tariff deal with China and how the market is responding. And we'll have the latest on the air traffic controller staffing issues at Newark Airport which appear to be spread to other travel hubs across the country. We'll explain that. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, May 13th. Along with Joe, Willie and me, we have the co host of our fourth hour contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post. David Ignatius joins us and co founder and CEO of Axios. Jim Vande Hei is here with us. And Joe, we have a lot to get to this morning, including what happened last night.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, I will tell you, I'm happy. Can I just say I'm surprised Willie Lemire is on his feet. It was like getting a 1, 2 blow from Ali, like in Zaire. You expect him to go down on the floor. I mean, you've got first of all, our Red sox losing like 13 to 1. That was brutal. But you always think, well, the Sox lost, the Celtics, you know, best team in basketball, they're going to win. And I guess I'm shocked. I really am. I thought after the third game in both this series and also the Cav series that you'd have the Cavs and the Celtics come back and play to form. Just the opposite went wildly wrong and in the other direction for both of those favorites. Talk about last night at the Garden, what it means to the Knicks fans who haven't won a championship since 1973.

[Willie Geist]

Well, it was a great night for the Knicks. They were down 14 in the third quarter. They came all the way back to win the game. It had the feel of those first two games when they got in a hole. The Celtics were shooting the three ball incredibly well last night. The Knicks come back to win the game. The Garden is rocking. But the story of the game really is the injury to Jayson Tatum right here. This was late in the game. He was playing brilliantly at 42 points. One of those legendary performances. A Jordan like Reggie Miller like show. He was putting on a non contact injury. Goes down to the floor in just excruciating pain. He's grabbing the back of his ankle. He's gonna have an MRI today. We don't know what it is, but most people think it could be an Achilles injury. We know how serious that is. That's a year recovery for one of the years for one of the league's great stars, John Lemire. So yet as a Knicks fan, I am thrilled that we're up three to one. I'm thrilled that Brunson was so good and Mikhail Bridges was so good in the second half. They played really well. But as you can see, the Knicks clapping for Tatum as he left the floor. Just a devastating injury and it was that image of him back in going to the locker room in a wheelchair with his face buried in his hands that was the heartbreaker.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah, it was. You know, they always say the 19th title is the hardest. No, the Celtics. This is devastating in many ways, but let's start with giving Knicks credit. Jalen Brunson was immense down the stretch. The Knicks couldn't miss a shot in the second half. Towns was good. Bridges was good. The crowd was great. The Knicks earned this win. To be clear, the Celtics also, other than Derrick White, no one else showed up to help Jayson Tatum last night. They were diminished. They were injured. They played poorly. And the Tatum thing is really hard to see. As Willie just said, we don't know what this is just yet. The team simply said last night. He's going for an MRI this morning. But there is a belief that it is a serious injury, whether it's an ank, but most likely an Achilles tendon. And I think you saw him there, the way he was spiraling on the ground. It was pain, but also, I think, fear. He knows that if that's an Achilles tendon, that's not just this season. That's probably next year, too. He's 27 years old. He's one of the best players in the league. And to suddenly have your prime cut short by this. And it's a long road back. We've seen other players really struggle to come back from this injury. It's one of the worst injuries a basketball player can suffer. The Celtics team's going to look very different next year. They're going to move a lot of players, I think move into, not a rebuild, but they're going to have to retool. And it's just a tough day for Celtics fans. And it just goes to show you how hard it is to win a title. And I'm so grateful. This group, Willie, they did win one last year, but it's so difficult to.

[Willie Geist]

Do, as the Celtics head coach said after the game. So Jayson Tatum's not a guy who doesn't get up on his own, if he can at all. And he just could not get up. Jalen Brunson led his post game press conference talking about Jayson Tatum sending his best. So that injury looks devastating. But for Knicks fans, you're one game away now with three shots to win one game from the Eastern Conference finals, a place we haven't been in 25 years.

[Frank Holland]

We shall see. Okay, we'll get to our top news story this morning. Now, a shortage of air traffic controllers forced the Federal Aviation Administration to delay flights for several hours yesterday at Newark International Airport. Now, according to the faa, as few as three air traffic controllers were scheduled to work at the facility guiding planes to and from the airport yesterday evening. That is far fewer than the target of 14 controllers. The New York Post reports that just one air traffic controller and a trainee operated every flight in and out of Newark between 6:30 and 9:30 last night when up to 180 planes were scheduled to take off or land. A New York based air traffic controller called the situation pure insane. The staffing shortage is the latest problem to plague the busy airport. Following recent communication outages, the CEO of United Airlines sent an email to customers yesterday saying flights to and from Newark are, quote, absolutely safe. Also this morning, it appears Newark isn't the only airport suffering from significant issues. More than 100 flights were delayed at the Hartsfield Jackson Atlanta International Airport yesterday. That follows two ground stops on Sunday due to the Runway equipment issues and an air traffic control outage. And the airport in Austin, Texas saw more than 100 delays on Sunday due to a shortage of air traffic controllers. And Joe, I don't think this is the last we've heard of it. Something has to change.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You know, something does have to change and we've all experienced certainly post Covid difficulties flying, especially in the summer months with pilots being pushed out for retirement and air traffic controllers also, many going to retirement. The same thing with flight attendants and other people up and down sort of the food chain for the airline industry. We knew this was going to be a problem and talked about it post Covid but it has gotten so bad now, Willie, I really, I really. They're going to have to take some extreme measures. I know the Secretary of Transportation is meeting the head of the airlines on Wednesday. I know they're going to be trying to keep as many flights up in the air as possible. I don't think, I don't think they can do that. I don't think they can do half measures right now. We've had three outages at Newark. Three outages. The first outage was blamed on a rusted copper oil. And now we've had a second and a third talking about rusted copper coils anymore or whatever they were talking about because they've got a system that is melting down right now. And when you only have the New York Post reporting one air traffic controller and one trainee guiding in 160 to 180 planes from 6pm to 9pm in one of the nation's busiest airports last night, it's unacceptable. They're going to have to make very dramatic decisions and they're going to have to be a ton of planes grounded until they get their arms around this. And it may be several months before that happens, but this is a tragedy that's waiting to happen. And when you have the head of United saying flights to and from Newark are completely safe reminds me an awful lot about what the government said about walking around 9 11, after, after 911 for those first responders saying, oh, don't worry, the air is completely safe. Well, it wasn't. And the air is not completely safe now, not only over Newark, but over a lot of other cities.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, I mean, I was one of the many, many people who received that email yesterday from the CEO of United Airlines. And he went on to explain, not only is it safe to go into Newark, but when there are staffing shortages of the faa, when they have their problems, they require the airlines to have fewer flights to manage that. So therefore, you get canceled flights, you get backups, you get all the things that we're seeing at these airports. I'm not sure an email from the CEO, though well intentioned, is going to put people's mind to ease when they hear just how antiquated the system is. And I guess if you're looking for a silver lining in all this, Jim Vande Hei, it's that sometimes it takes a moment of crisis to actually get something changed. We've had Steve Ratner, a pilot on this show many times over the last several weeks, talking about a plan that went in place in the year 2000, 25 ago to overhaul and modernize our air traffic control system to make it safer, to bring it into this century at least. And he says only pieces of that have been put in. We have not really overhauled the system in the way we should. And that's all been thrown into public view here in the last few weeks.

[Stanley McChrystal]

Yeah, it's a real danger, I think, for Trump, for politicians. I mean, this is the type of crap that the American public doesn't tolerate. This is where the presidency, this is where the government is like being a mayor. You operate the airline system.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You just do.

[Stanley McChrystal]

The FAA governs all of this. And it's an interconnected, complicated system. And like, the CEO can send you an email and say, hey, all is fine. You couldn't pay me to go through Newark even if you could convince me that it's safe. Like, everyone knows you're going to probably have a canceled flight or a delayed flight. And the fact that it's now spreading to other places has to rise to the top of the government's agenda. We hear from the transportation secretary. But you're about to head into Memorial Day. You're about to head into the Summ. I was just trying to fly out of Bangor, Maine. Turns out that they've had to cancel a bunch of flights because they haven't done Runway work that should have been scheduled years ago to be done on time. And if this is happening at a bunch of different airports and screws up travel, it has implications for people's lives, has implications for the U.S. economy.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And Jonathan Omere, again, we've had summers where travel is difficult over the past three, four years post Covid. It certainly got a lot better over the last two years. And everybody's done this system's adequate and everybody's known that you have floppy disks, that they're still using floppy disk. And I guarantee you there are about half of our audience that don't even know what a floppy disk is. It's something that you stuck into an old computer back in the 1980s. And as Ratner said, they're not electronic. They're handing notes, often from one air traffic controller to another. But we had this, this the greatest safety run from 2009 until January of this year. And it's just like Congress was asleep at the switch, successive presidents asleep at the switch. Treasury secretary's asleep. They can't be any more. They are on notice. The White House is on notice. The secretary of Transportation is not is on notice. Congress is on notice. This system is broken. And if there is an accident, it is on you as a lawmaker, it is on you as a leader for not doing what's necessary right now in this moment of emergency to make things safer and build redundancy. So we don't keep hearing about these horrific stories where air traffic control controllers go dark for 90 seconds or two minutes with hundreds of planes up in the sky around their airport.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah. First, to echo Jim Vande Hei's spot on analogy, this is a moment where the president is like a big city mayor. There's a problem, you're tasked with fixing it. And if you don't, you will be held responsible. We saw some of the travel chaos during the Biden administration early on where he and the transportation secretary at the time, Buttigieg, got a lot of heat because of airport del delays. And they did. They were aggressive. They addressed it. Now, obviously big picture solutions weren't presented, but things did get a little bit better the last couple years. And we're now at that moment for the Trump administration. We've heard the president a couple times in recent days say, indeed, that the system is antiquated. We need to fix this. It's going to be a priority. You know, he didn't offer any specifics but said they'd be looking to purchase new systems. The question is when does that happen? How long does it take to put in place and what's going to happen in the interim? Because as just noted, this meltdown is coming just as summer travel season is starting to pick up. And if we have weeks worth of images from airports across the country beyond Newark, a flight of that red board saying flights postponed or delayed and canceled and lines of passengers at terminals, that's going to be a real world problem for this president and Congress. Mika, they're saying right now they're going to act. They're saying they're going to find the money to do this. Well, until they actually do, they're going to be held responsible.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, they are going to be held responsible. And Nikki, listen, this is an emergency. We keep hearing the White House calling things emergencies that the courts don't think are emergencies, that the numbers don't suggest are emergencies. This is an emergency. And when you're in an emergency like this, you've got to do some things that are out of the box a bit. And one of them is they have a retirement at 56 years of age which is too young. I don't know if that's because of the union. I don't know if that's to encourage younger people to get in. So they have jobs for younger people and they can keep moving people up. They have to. This is an emergency. They have to get the best and most experienced air traffic controllers back. They have to pay them a lot more than they've paid them in the past. And they need to move that retirement age up to 60 or 62. And they have to do it immediately. Again, when it's an the New York Post is reporting you have one air traffic controller handling 160 to 180 planes at Newark from 6 to 9pm last night. I'm sorry, this is something that can't go through committees. This is an emergency and they need to act like it's an emergency. And the first thing they need to do is get more air traffic controllers in the tower, get people that are not only already trained but have decades of experience and put them up there now.

[Frank Holland]

Well, hate to say it, I think it starts with limiting the number of flights until they can do that.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, they have to do that. Yeah, they have to do that too.

[David Ignatius]

A lot.

[Frank Holland]

All right, let's get to Other news, President Trump is kicking off his four day visit to the Middle East. This is a live look at the royal Court in Riyadh where the President and Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman are meeting key members of each country's delegation. The two leaders are set to hold more formal meetings in which they'll discuss a variety of issues, including the war in Gaza, efforts to dismantle Iran's nuclear program and ways to keep oil prices down. But the primary focus of the president's trip is to shore up business deals. Later this morning, the President will attend an investment forum with Saudi officials. It comes as the kingdom has committed to a $600 billion investment in the US over the next four years. But the President is pushing for a full trillion dollars. David Ignatius, if you could break this down for us.

[Todd Blanche]

So, Mika, it's fascinating to see Trump arriving in a kingdom where the wealth and splendor dazzle him. This was his first stop when he became president in 2017. It's not surprising that it's second stop in this second term. It's a place where he, I think, feels a kind of kinship with the Saudi royalty. Has certainly come to the aid of Mohammed bin Salman when he was attacked after playing a role in the killing of my colleague Jamal Khashoggi during Trump's first term. This trip, we're all told, will be about business. The idea that the Saudis who are really struggling with falling oil prices will be able to get to a trillion dollar level of investment as opposed to the 600 billion they promised, strikes me as unrealistic. I would also note that Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates, the other destinations on this trip, have become increasingly important strategically for the United States. These are the places now where meetings take place that are intended to resolve conflicts in the Ukraine war. Russia and Ukraine sent their representatives to Jeddah in Saudi Arabia, then to Riyadh for key talks. Talks. Qatar has hosted almost all the key negotiations to free the Israeli hostages in Gaza and have a resolution of the war there. The UAE was said to be helpful to the United States as it tried to de escalate tensions between Pakistan and India. So these are not just economic friends, wealthy and able to Invest in the U.S. they're strategic partners. And that to me, that's a big difference from what we saw eight years ago during the last trip. That time, you know, Saudis dreamed of having influence. Today they really do have it, thanks to their role as a mediator.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And you know, David, also you have again the Saudis in their role as a mediator and the other countries in the middle also, because they've been talking for some time, certainly the Saudis and the uae, about the rebuilding of Gaza, if that were to ever happen, and taking a more active role. And that of course, those plans seem to be on the sidelines right now. But it is remarkable how much, as you've said over the past eight, 10 years, the center of power has shifted in the Middle East. And again, you have a trip here, as many people have noted, where an American president is going to the Middle east and not stopping in Israel. What do you read into that?

[Todd Blanche]

So I think we see in President Trump a growing frustration with Israel and with Prime Minister Netanyahu, who's been slow, seemingly unable to end the war in Gaza. Trump sent his emissary Steve Witkoff finally to have negotiations separately that led to the freeing of the American Israeli hostage Idan Alexander. I think Trump is similarly uneasy, unhappy about the pressure he's getting from Israel to consider a military strike on Iran. Trump would rather go for the big deal to cap Iran's nuclear program, even though it doesn't look very different from what he scuttled in 2018 in the so called JCPOA. But it's, you know, when Trump says America first, he means it and he means it even in the case of our historically closest ally in the region, Israel. Israel's interests, while powerful, do not in Trump's mind supersede those of the United States. An extraordinary example published by the New York Times last night. It's one of the best stories I've seen in weeks. Details Trump's frustration with the campaign against the Iranian backed Houthis, that his decision after 30 days. That's it, let's declare victory. He was given a plan for eight months of military campaign, decided this isn't going anywhere, it's not worth the money, and did it without talking to the Israelis who were directly threatened by the Houthis. That's a very different command and control environment than I've ever seen. I've been covering the Middle east for 40 years. This really surprised me.

[Willie Geist]

John, let's talk a little bit about the pageantry we're watching on the other side of our screen. This long receiving line of frankly, rich guys coming to get their 30 seconds with President Trump and with the Crown prince. Crown Prince greeted President Trump at the airport a short time ago, an honor he did not offer President Biden in 2022. When he arrived the President's limousine, the beast was escorted to the Royal Court by Arabian horses. The Saudis know how to put on a show. They know how to welcome President Trump. Remember in that visit in 2017 when they projected his face onto the side of the Ritz Carlton hotel there?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah.

[David Ignatius]

The Saudis created a template that was his. Trump's first trip was May 2017. I was on that trip traveling with the presidential. The images of the president and the king were draped on every building as the motorcade went down the highway on his hotel, the Ritz Carlton, they put up his face, as you say, in digital imagery. The same hotel, by the way, that Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince, usually later used to detain his political prisoners. That was the trip of the orb where the president and the king and the head of Egypt all stood with it. Yes, they created. The Saudis figured out early. The trick was President Trump is to flatter him, to treat him like royalty, which is what he wanted. And we saw that on that trip. We are seeing it again now. And yes, the White House has said, look, this is about business. We're trying to get deals, the trillion dollar mark, although that seems unlikely. But of course, there are geopolitics that are going to creep in here. The situation in Gaza, the Gulf states will push him to come up with some sort of plan there for the Palestinians, the Iran deal as well. They're going to want some sort of solution there. But right now, as we're seeing the president a short time ago with, with the crown prince, he, he's strengthening ties to the region and it's really about economic and business development rather than strategy.

[Willie Geist]

Mika.

[Frank Holland]

All right, we'll be continuing to follow this. Also still ahead on Morning Joe, the markets rallied Yesterday after the US and China agreed to slash tariffs for 90 days. We'll talk about the economic impact and what things look like for Washington and Beijing. Plus, President Trump has named a new acting librarian of Congress and his pick has Democrats calling for an investigation. Morning Joe is back in 90 seconds.

[Joe Scarborough]

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[David Ignatius]

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[Mika Brzezinski]

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[Jonathan Lemire]

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[David Ignatius]

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[Jonathan Lemire]

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[David Ignatius]

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[Mika Brzezinski]

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[David Ignatius]

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[Todd Blanche]

Episode, former President Richard Nixon.

[Jonathan Lemire]

But when the president does it, that.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Means that it is not illegal. Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Willie Geist]

Beautiful live picture sunrise over New York City at 6:26 in the morning. The 90 day tariff rollback between the United States and China sparked a big rally on Wall street yesterday. All three big averages posting their best days since April 9 with the Dow up more than 1,100 points, the S&P 500 adding 3% and the Nasdaq gaining more than 4%. Meanwhile, economists for Goldman Sachs cut their estimated risk of a recession in the United States to 35%. That's down from 45% before that deal was announced. Let's bring in the anchor of CNBC's Worldwide Exchange, Frank Holland. Frank, good morning. So good news here in the short term that the tariffs are coming back from that 145% threshold, but it's a 90 day pause and there remains some uncertainty, does there not, about what happens after that.

[Jim VandeHei]

Yeah, certainly a lot of uncertainty out there. Willie, good morning to you. So let's go focus on the markets first. The markets just pulling back just a bit today after a big rally on that 90 day temporary tariff reduction between the US and China. As you mentioned, it's the biggest market day since April 9th. April 9th was the day that the President announced a pause in those so called reciprocal tariffs also for 90 days. And we also saw a reacceleration of the big tech trade, the Magnificent Seven stocks. We're talking names like Tesla, Nvidia, Microsoft, Google, Amazon, those other others gaining more than $837 billion in market cap yesterday, some huge gains. Also, I want to go back to something else. You guys were talking about the President's visit to Saudi Arabia as part of a broader trip to get Middle east investment. We saw Elon Musk there with the President along with the Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang, along with some other tech leaders like the Palantir CEO Alex Karp and some other very prominent Wall street leaders including the CEOs of BlackRock and Blackstone, Larry Fink and Steven Schwarzman. So a lot of business support for the President as he makes that trip. All right, I want to come back to the tariffs. They seem to be the driving force for the market and for the US Economy. As you mentioned, Goldman reducing its recession odds from 45% down to 35%. We also saw the Vix, often called the Wall street fear gauge, move below 20. That's just about normal. We saw it spike above 50 during some of these trade tensions. We've also seen gold prices pull back quite a bit. Another possible sign of just less investor anxiety out there. People generally buy gold when they're nervous about the economy. So I want to go back to that 90 day tariff reduction as well with China. It's having an impact on how traders are seeing the reserve and possible rate cuts. So just a month ago, traders saw a 57% chance of a 25 basis point cut in July. That's now dropped all the way down to 37%. And it also appears to be having some influence on the bond market. Now here's why that's important. The bond market was a major factor in the President's decision to do that pause when it came to reciprocal tariffs. We've seen the 10 year treasury kind of inch up close to four and a half percent. And again, it was a factor in the President's decision, at least according to the Treasury Secretary. Later today we have an inflation report with cpi, a lot of eyes on that, what it's going to say about the economy and inflation. Remember, when it comes to the Fed, they have a dual mandates, keep prices stable, inflation and also keep the job market steady. So a lot of eyes on that CPI report later today.

[Mika Brzezinski]

All right, CBC's Frank Holland, thank you so much.

[Jim VandeHei]

Thank you, guys.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Jim Van Vande Hei, if you look at the lead editorial in the Wall Street Journal editorial page this morning, they're writing that Donald Trump started a trade war with Adam Smith and he lost, suggesting that free markets still are the best way to go. You know, I think we see, I think we, we're seeing an overreaction right now not only from the markets, from others who are suggesting that Donald Trump has beat a speedy retreat from tariffs and he's never going back there again. He's believed in tariffs since 1987. People close to Donald Trump say yes, he's making deals with the uk he may make a deal with China, but he's still a huge believer in tariffs. These people that are reassessing everything and thinking this is the, you know, this is the end of war tariffs think they may be overreading what they've seen over the past four days.

[Stanley McChrystal]

I mean, let's be honest, it's kind of a who the hell knows strategy for trade.

[Mika Brzezinski]

We just don't know.

[Stanley McChrystal]

I agree with you that his instincts have always been protectionism. He wants equality in trade. He wants the US to use its leverage to get better deals. And he feels like people are giving us. But you go with that Goldman like, chances of a recession thing. It's all over the place. It's all over the place because the trade policy is all over the place. And the thing I think people miss is that so much of what's happening right now in terms of US Strategy is Trump says something or does something and then they try to put kind of a logical framework around it, like, oh, we're trying to pressure China and bring all these countries together. And now, well, no, we always plan to not have decoupling with China. It's very hard to follow. And for those that like the Trump style, the danger is talk to any CEO right now and they're really, they are slowing investment and they're certainly slowing hiring because two things are happening simultaneously. You have mass uncertainty in what the trade policy will be. So you don't know what your cost of goods are going to be. Then you're thinking about artificial intelligence getting better and better over the next year. And you're trying to think, okay, will a robot be able to do that better than a human? And the CEOs won't say that in public. Single CEO in the world is having that conversation right now. And so when you have this level of uncertainty, it just makes running these businesses that much harder. And it's always been the most baffling part of the Trump policy because he talked in the beginning about, we're going to have the golden age. You had the golden age. It was coming. He inherited a pretty decent economy. He had all these countries that wanted to invest in the United States. There was already movement towards investment flowing into the United States. There was already kind of a consensus that, listen, with chips and data and all these high tech products, we should bring them, find incentives to bring them into the United States. And if you just let them go and didn't add this level of uncertainty, you'd probably have a market that's way higher than it is today. You'd have businesses investing much more confidently and robustly than they are today. So that's the cost of these things. And listen, we won't know the consequences for a year or two. For now, like you talked about that jet, about taking a private plane from a foreign government. People are like, oh, you should be held accountable today. No one gets held accountable in the moment. You get held accountable over time. And if I'm Donald Trump on the jet issue, I'd be really worried that Republican senators are speaking out about it. I'd be really worried that MAGA podcasters are now speaking out about it because it doesn't pass the 12 people at the bar test. Does that seem fair? Does that seem on the level like your average person drinking that Miller Lights? Like, well, hell no, that doesn't make sense. It seems like you're about to get a free plane from a government that you're also trying to do business with with, and the public to digest that and there to be consequences. That takes a long time.

[Mika Brzezinski]

All right, well, I think for Republicans and I think also people in the MAGA crowd, what makes them nervous is of course, Qatar has been a funder of Hamas. They've been a funder of Hezbollah. They've been a funder of terrorist states for a very long time. So obviously they're expressing concerns. Republicans are expressing concerns. David Ignatius, I want, I want to talk to you very quickly about, we were talking about the economics of all of this. And you know, I have, I have been saying from the beginning when people are talking about the stock market going down to 20,000 and, and, and the US economy melting down, that first of all, just, just with, during the Biden administration and before that, the Trump and the Obama administration, people, people want to invest in the United States of America and they're going to look for excuses to invest in the United States of America. But also been saying that when Donald Trump makes these deals, the stock market's going to go back up and we're up to 40, you know, got down to 36,000, it's up to 42,000. And he has, he has countries that are desperate to make deals with him right now. And we've seen this in foreign policy as well. The Iranians never wanted to do deals. He killed Soleimani. I know a lot of us, a lot of us were talking about, talking about myself, talking about how dangerous this was and how much it up the ante. And of course we found out that that actually put the Iranians back on their heels and now they're willing to deal with him. I'm saying this is chaos. It's hard for foreign leaders to follow. It's hard for people on Wall street to follow. You just wonder if this isn't just Again, his approach to economics and his approach to foreign policy because he believes he can intimidate people into making deals with him.

[Todd Blanche]

So, Joe, we always said at the outset of Trump's second term and the first that he was two things. He was a disruptor, he liked to break things, he liked to overturn the traditional assumptions. But he was also a dealmaker. And so we've seen both in these first hundred plus days. There was talk some weeks ago about Trump destroying the international system as it had evolved since 1945. He's damaged it. But you can see that that system is bigger and stronger than Donald Trump. And in the end, the system, the realities of international trade, have forced Trump to accommodate. In the tariff issue with China, he walked up a very steep hill, but he's walked back down most of the way in this meeting, series of meetings in Geneva that his treasury secretary, Scott Bessant, had. So I think we're, we're seeing Trump, a guy with big, ambitious ideas, in some ways a wrecker, encountering just how solid and difficult to wreck, thank goodness this international system is. And the other point that you make, I think really bears noting. Trump has the ambition to resolve major conflicts in Ukraine, in Gaza. This story I mentioned earlier about, you know, he was being pushed into a long war, eight, ten month war with the Houthis. He said, enough. After one month, that's it. It's not working. It's not worth the money. So in many different ways, you can see Trump actually trying to deliver on this pledge he made that there are too many wars in the world, they're too dangerous. I'm going to try to try to stop as many of them as I can. That's making some people nervous. Israel in particular sees the negotiations with Iran as a potential threat. So we'll all have to keep our eyes on that. But it's a period where I think the durability of the international order and the surprising desire of Trump to be the mediator are the big themes.

[Frank Holland]

The Washington Post, David Ignatius and Jim Vande Hei of Axios, thank you both very much for being on this morning. And ahead on Morning Joe will speak with the United States Trade Representative, Ambassador Jamison Greer, about the temporary agreement on tariffs the administration struck with China. Plus, Democratic Senator Ruben Gallego of Arizona will join the conversation with a look at his plan to improve border security. Morning Joe will be right back.

[Joe Scarborough]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet greenlight, the debit card and money app for families with greenlight. You can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.

[Mika Brzezinski]

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[David Ignatius]

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[Frank Holland]

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[David Ignatius]

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[Frank Holland]

It'S 42 past the hour. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. President Trump's former criminal defense lawyer will now be the acting Librarian of Congress. Todd Blanche, who currently serves as the deputy attorney general, will take over the position just days after the administration abruptly fired the former librarian. Dr. Carla Hayden. A source familiar with the matter tells NBC News that yesterday morning two men went to the copyright office with a signed letter by the president establishing the new leadership of the Library of Congress. Democrats are calling for an inspector general investigation into the move, including the possible transfer of congressional files. A Democratic National Committee panel has recommended a new election for the public held by Vice Chair David Hogg. The position is being challenged over a procedural complaint related to voting, but the move comes after Hogg vowed to spend $20 million to oust some Democratic House members in safe blue districts. In a statement last night, he wrote in part, it's impossible to ignore the broader context of my work to reform the party, which loomed large over this. He added, the DNC has pledged to remove me, and this vote has provided an avenue to fast track that effort. We'll follow that and U.S. health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Posted photos of himself swimming in water known to be contaminated with high levels of bacteria. He was joined by family members, including his grandchildren. Swimming is prohibited in Rock Creek, which flows through parts of Washington. The reason is because of widespread fecal contamination and sewer runoff into Rock Creek, where they swam.

[Willie Geist]

Brought the grandkids in there too. Yeah, while swimming in jeans, no less. Rock Creek that for 50 years the city of Washington has said, you can't swim in these waters, it's not safe. But took a little Mother's Day dip.

[David Ignatius]

And yeah, the genes provide a protection against the bacteria, perhaps, and that's we take our health, national health advice from Roberto Kangier.

[Frank Holland]

All right. Still ahead on MORNING joe, our next guest calls character the essential identity of our nation. And he believes we've lighted a road. That's the focus of his new book, retired four star, you U.S. army General Stanley McChrystal joins us next on Morning Joe.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Welcome back to Morning Joe. New book is examining the importance and the absence of character in American politics. It's titled Choices that Define a Life. And Then at retired four star US Army General Stanley McChrystal writes about the constructive ways we can all live more principally lives. And General Stanley McChrystal joins us now. General, such an honor to have you with us again. Thank you for being here.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So we I interviewed Graydon Carter about a month ago, and he said he always told his children that character was built over the boneyard of failures. And in your book, you talk about character, you have a formula that I find to be very compelling. But what I really find compelling is when you write about the fact that it took an inflection point for you to stop and reexamine your life. You know, it's easy to talk about character when the music's going, when everything's perfect, when you're pursuing your life plan, but you talk about a time when for you, everything stopped and it made you reexamine your life and reexamine what character was. Tell us about that.

[David Ignatius]

That.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Well, thanks, Joe. Of course, I'd had a life where I'd been trained in character and educated in it, but I hadn't thought a lot about it, as you say. And then in the summer of 2010, when a magazine article came out in Rolling Stone magazine, I offered my resignation to President Obama and he accepted it. And I didn't like the article, didn't think it was accurate, but it didn't matter. I was responsible and I had no problem accepting that responsibility. But it cut my legs out from under me because in that moment, I was no longer a commander. I was no longer a general. I was no longer even a soldier. And I had been born in an army hospital. I'd gone to west point at age 17. I'd been in my career for 34 years after West Point. I'd been married to an army brat who had been with me for 33 years at that point. And suddenly we were in an entirely different place. And I remember walking out of the Oval Office and I was in shock because I always thought I could be killed in combat or I could be Fired for incompetence, but I'd never be accused of anything like disloyalty or that. And as I went over to our quarters at Fort McNair, I'd flown back all night from Afghanistan. I left the Oval Office and went back into our quarters, and my wife, Annie, was waiting for me, me. And I walked in and said, it's over. He accepted my resignation. And she goes, good. We've always been happy, and we will always be happy. And in that moment, she set a course forward, not back. And I joke with people that Annie lives her life like she drives, with no use for the rearview mirror. And so. But what it made me do, because first, for quite a long time, I felt like I was an absolute failure. You know, I'd walk through airports, and I'd see people talking and kind of looking at me, not pointing. And I knew they were talking about me because they recognized me and I assumed they were talking bad things. Later, people would talk to me. And that was probably mostly in my head, but it was there. And so I went through a quite a long period of reflecting who I am, what I am. And then this book is really 15 years of exploration of what is my character. I don't have answers in this book for anybody. What I have is questions that I took on. And I would invite other people to look at the questions and see if they might not be worthy of them asking themselves.

[Willie Geist]

We were talking a minute ago in the break general about the state of character today in this country and why you and I, and I think everyone at this table believes it is still so important. And we try to tell our kids that despite what they see in public view as rewards for people who have low character, people who are not kind or generous or strong in the ways that you and I might view strength. So have we lost some of character in our culture?

[Jonathan Lemire]

I think we de. Emphasized it. You know, there's. If you watch movies about special operators and I had the chance to work with our best for many years, you have this idea that they are very competent, but they just razor sharp. And when you go through the selection and assessment Programs for the SEALs or Delta Force of the Rangers, very few people flunk. Almost nobody fails because they can't shoot or they're not strong enough, they're not smart enough. The people who fail quit. What the selection and assessment is looking for is character because they can train everything else. And what that has turned out through years now and. And decades of combat is that character is the essential quality you need to Know who you can count on when it's really bad. As I've said about elected officials, you can never predict what crisis they're going to have to deal with because they're always emerging. But you do know that crises will come, and you do know that ultimately character will be the most important fulcrum around which everything depends. And so I think we don't talk about it enough.

[David Ignatius]

Enough.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I would argue we don't think about it enough. And what I want to do is help start a national conversation on character, maybe starting with young people, whatever groups do it and just put it back up and say, should character be something we look at for everybody we consider for a CEO job, for elected office, for anything?

[Frank Holland]

So I'm. I'm curious the you were telling your story and how you took responsibility, regardless of how much you agreed with everything that had come out in Rolling Stone. Character overall isn't a key factor of it. Accountability. Whether you stay in a leadership position in the military or not, isn't that what engenders trust in the ranks? And that could also be translated to voters completely.

[Jonathan Lemire]

And sometimes it's very painful because if you have to accept responsibility, maybe you don't think it's entirely fair or justified, but it's important for the system for people below you to watch you accept responsibility. The Navy, for years, captains of ships has accepted responsibility for what happens, even though they might be asleep when the ship has an accident. And on the one hand, it seems tough. On the other hand, I think it's produced some really good culture.

[Todd Blanche]

Culture.

[Stanley McChrystal]

Mm.

[Frank Holland]

Mm. For sure.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So, General, let's talk about how I think books like these are so important, because there's this belief that character always moves in one direction, that it's either always going up or it's always going down. Well, obviously we're deeply concerned about a lot of things way things are breaking in this country. But if you look also, we had something yesterday about how faith, especially young, among young men, is going up, not only in America, but across the West. You look at teenage pregnancy, you look at overdose, a lot of things are happening that actually are breaking in the right direction over the past few years. And that reminds me of post 9 11, the belief that we had the greatest generation and then we had a bunch of misfits that followed, and things kept getting worse. Well, those young men, those young women are who you led into battle in Afghanistan, who fought proudly and nobly in Iraq as well. Talk. Talk about that. Talk about how character is not always just this depleted resource that we have, but it can be built not only in a person, but in a nation.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Well, I think you're exactly right. I think there's this tremendous desire for it. What we used to see with people in the military, interestingly enough, often in people from the most difficult backgrounds, someone who had a difficult upbringing, they enlist in the military, and we offer them a set of values. I was in the army with the army values. And these young people would literally embrace those army values completely. And they would become what they thought was part of a group that they would feel good about and would make them feel good about themselves. You know, sometimes people come from better backgrounds, they nuance it more and they see it gray. But it was always good to have some of these people who said, no, wait a minute, these are our values. This is what we were told. This is what we should do. And I think an entire. Well, I think all of America, but particularly a young generation, wants to see that. And I think our generation is not showing that enough. We're not talking about it enough. We talk about policies and politics and we get wrapped around the excellent personalities. What if we just step back and say the most important thing is character?

[David Ignatius]

So a big part of character, and this certainly applies to the people, think about it as terms of the armed services. But I think perhaps it's lacking for a lot of people in everyday life, is you write about is discipline, talk about how you see discipline, what it actually means and why it's so important.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, people think of discipline as just military parade ground. That's not what I think of it. You have a set of convictions, things you decide you believe in and what you decide to be. Do you have the discipline to live to that? You know, we say we want to be empathetic or kind or have willpower. If we have the discipline to actually do those, then we can be the person that we want to be. And the sad part is when someone professes a set of convictions and then you see in reality they just don't have the personal discipline to live up to it.

[Willie Geist]

General, I'm curious what you're hearing talking to troops, talking to leaders no longer in the military. You're still so plugged in about sort of the state, the morale of the military right now. It was trash during the campaign as weak and woke something that had to be overhauled and reformed and streamlined and changed. Obviously, there have been some political moves to remove people at the top of the military. We've seen the Secretary of Defense face really no consequences for putting attack plans in a signal group chat. What is the downstream impact of all of that on the rank and file members of the military?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, I think it's upsetting. But when I talk to people and I don't speak for the military, wouldn't claim to, they will look you in the eye and say, hey, sir, the soldiers are still good. They want to do the job just like we want them to do the job. They think that military is a meritocracy. So we talk about opportunities for people of every background, every gender, every sexual orientation. All you want is someone that can get the job done. And so I think some of this is sort of background noise that doesn't really make the military better. But what I hear from the leaders is to say we are there, we are good. They believe that all of this will settle down over time and that the bedrock values of the military will come through. And I think, and I hope that they're right.

[Frank Holland]

All right. The new book on character choices that define a life is on sale now. Author and retired four star general Stanley McChrystal, thank you so much. Congratulations on the book and thank you for coming on the show this morning.

[Jonathan Lemire]

You're kind to have me appreciate it.

[Joe Scarborough]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.