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Morning Joe
Morning Joe 5/20/25
00:47:02
Following call with Putin, Trump pushes for direct negotiations between Russia and Ukraine
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- [00:01]
Joe Scarborough
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. New episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows are ad free plus ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News and all MSNBC original podcasts are available ad free and with bonus content including why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Sir David Frost gave us an intimate look at some of the most compelling personalities of our time.
- [00:36]
Mika Brzezinski
We want to involve both world leaders and world entertainers.
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Joe Scarborough
MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series David Frost versus On the next episode, Elton John.
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Jonathan Lemire
I realize what my flaws are.
- [00:50]
Eugene Robinson
Now I can do something about them.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
It's okay to ask for help.
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Eugene Robinson
I didn't think it was because I thought it was a sign of weakness.
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Joe Scarborough
Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
Trump tries to dominate everyone in the mold of rulers like Turkey's President Erdogan. Here's Erdogan greeting French President Macron. Take a look at how Erdogan tries to win the handshake. What is happening?
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Jonathan Lemire
Stephen Colbert's take on that odd moment between Presidents Macron and Erdogan last week. Meanwhile, President Trump is trying to project strength after his long phone call with Vladimir Putin yesterday. It didn't produce any significant breakthroughs in bringing peace to Eastern Europe. NBC News chief international correspondent Keir Simmons will join us with more insight on that conversation. Also ahead, we'll bring you the latest on the communication issues. Plagu Newark Airport after yet another brief outage with a control tower. How is this possible? Les? We'll go through the charges a Democratic congresswoman from New Jersey is facing following an incident earlier this month at an ICE facility. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, May 20th. With us we have the co host of our fourth hour, contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire and writer at large for the New York Times, Elizabeth Bueller is with us this morning. A lot to cover, Joe. And yes, congratulations, your Red Sox won last night. Something new every day doesn't happen.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
Does it happen a lot? The bullpen actually held up. So great news. We're going to be talking Mika, of course, off the top of the show about the two hour phone call that President Trump had with Vladimir Putin and not not a lot of movement towards a cease fire. The president said after there were some positive steps forward. But there is no doubt the biggest problem right now is that Vladimir Putin doesn't want peace, doesn't want a cease fire. And as Marco Rubio Said a month or two ago, he said, we're going to know very soon who's responsible for the continued war over that last month, month and a half of Vladimir Putin has made certain the world knows it is on him. He does not want peace, he doesn't want a cease fire, he doesn't want anything to do with the end of this war.
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Jonathan Lemire
President Trump held this hours long phone call with Vladimir Putin yesterday and Trump posted on social media afterwards that he believed the call went very well and called for direct negotiations between Russia and Ukraine toward a ceasefire and an end to the war. Trump wrote those terms will now be negotiation negotiated directly between the two countries themselves. Putin, for his part, was quoted as telling Russian media the phone call was very informative and very open. Later in the day in the Oval Office, President Trump spoke to reporters about the call.
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Keir Simmons
Mr. President, on Ukraine and on your call today that you had with President Putin, you said last week that you thought nothing was going to happen, no advances would be made until you and Putin got together. Do you still feel that way?
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Donald Trump
I think something is going to happen. It's a very big egos involved, I tell you, big egos involved. But I think something's going to happen and if it doesn't, I just back away and they're going to have to keep going. Again, this was a European situation, it should have remained a European situation. But I did say it's time you got to stop this thing. And I believe he wants to stop. Look, I would be, I think, very able to tell whether or not he wanted to or what. I thought there was a very good chance, like 50, 50 chance that he would say, I want to take the whole thing. I didn't know what he was going to say. And then they have a different kind of a problem. But I believe he wants to stop.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
You mentioned that you leave. Putin wants peace, but he just attacked Ukraine yesterday. So what makes you think that he wants peace?
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Donald Trump
Well, he's in a war, you know, I mean, and nobody said don't. They're fighting, they're attacking, they're attacking each other and people are dying all the time. He's in a war, he's fighting a war. Nobody said he was going to stop.
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Mika Brzezinski
I think.
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Donald Trump
Is it terrible? Yeah, it's terrible. I do. I think it's terrible.
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Jonathan Lemire
President Trump spoke one on one with Ukrainian President Zelensky prior to his call with Putin and again afterwards in a conference call with other NATO leaders. In a briefing yesterday, Zelensky acknowledged Trump's call for direct negotiations between Ukraine and Russia. However, he said Ukraine is still considering another high level round of talks between American, Russian and European officials. And Joe, I think that the lead out of all of that was President Trump hinting that if it continues, he'll back away and they'll keep going. That's a far cry from him saying he could end this in a day.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
Well, I think several things came out of it. The first thing that came out of it was that he said it was positive talks are going to continue. He thinks the two should get together and, and talk more specifically. Also said that he thought that Vladimir Putin did want peace, but the war of course, still going on. And the question is, of course, whether in fact that is the case or not. And if he does want peace, Vladimir Putin will not want peace out of the goodness of his heart. He'll want peace because first of all, there's the economic drain with this. Not only this war and sanctions, also the price of oil plunging the way it has. He may, and of course, the casualties that just keep piling up. I, I suspect he even knows that continuing this war in the same manner that it's been fought over the past two years is just not, not possible for either side. But again, right now, the negotiations continue to talk about that, let's bring in NBC News chief international correspondent Keir Simmons from dubai. Also retired U.S. army Lt. Gen. Mark Herdling. His military career spans more than three decades of service, including as a commanding general of U.S. army Europe and the 7th army here. Let's begin with you. What can you tell us about the call yesterday and Russia's response?
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Mika Brzezinski
Well, Joe, just to underscore what you've been saying, here's the point. President Putin does want the war to stop on his terms. That's what he said again and again. He walked out of that call yesterday, went straight in front of the cameras, Russian state media and said it again. We want our core interests to be addressed. The root causes, he calls it. By that, he means he doesn't want Ukraine any closer to Europe. He doesn't want Ukraine. He wants Ukraine to be mostly neutral. All those things that we've heard again and again. That call that President Trump had with President Putin did not change that. President Trump says that he may back away. He's already backing away. He was said just days ago that the only way to solve this was a face to face meeting between him and President Putin. Now apparently that isn't going to happen for some time. While there are direct talks between Russia and Ukraine, President Zelenskyy and the Europeans are very, very worried about a particular. What does backing away mean by President Trump? Does that backing away mean that he just leaves the negotiations to Russia and Ukraine, or does backing away mean that he withdraws? Again, intelligence support for Ukraine, this kind of security support that the Europeans just can't provide. Now, this is a very fast moving, complicated picture. There are lots of things happening. There's a bill in Congress that Secretary of State Rubio said over the weekend. The White House House is not able to prevent the progress of. That would really enforce tougher sanctions and more sanctions on the Russians. The White House approved the moving of Patriot missile defense systems to Ukraine just in the past few weeks. So what President Trump says and what's actually happening, just like in his first term, are not necessarily the same. And in some ways, we're seeing a repeat of that first term. The bromance is back on. What the Russians said about the call was that President Putin began by congratulating, congratulating President Trump on the birth of his grandchild, that they called each other by their first names, that they didn't want the call to end. The two presidents wanted to just keep going. So all very friendly, but no prize, friends with no benefits, if you like. And that is a repeat, frankly, of what the Russians think happened in the first term, which was that they seem to have a great relationship between their presidents, but didn't get any kind of resolution in the relationship with the United States. We are no further forward. President Putin has not shifted, despite Steve Witkoff saying over the weekend that the force of President Trump's personality would shift. The logjam was his words. That didn't happen on the call yesterday. And I think the historians may look back on this moment and say this was the moment that the US did begin to step back. It's interesting to hear Steve Wyckoff talk. You know, he will say, well, it's a really complicated. It's a really complicated war. It's very difficult to solve. You think, you know, it's very similar to what he says about Gaza. It's really complicated. It's really hard to stop that war. Even though that was his role, there are still hostages being held. And now, of course, Steve Wyckoff is moving on to negotiate the Iran deal. So there are. I think we're clearer at this stage, honestly, when you look past the rhetoric about where things stand, I think the war continues. There's no sign of a ceasefire, and both the Russians and Ukrainians will continue to work to try to get what they want from the White House, while certainly the Russians and to some extent the Ukrainians believe they can still gain if the conflict continues, because the Russians think they're winning, even though there's not a doubt about that when you actually look at the battlefield and the Ukrainians think that over time the Russians will begin to struggle to supply more troops to the military, more recruits to the military. So far, they're really able to still funnel the troops to the military, but that may not be the case in years to come. It's going to take some time, though. It's bitterly disappointing, honestly, for anyone who would hope to see peace in Ukraine.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
Friends without benefits. Many things have been said of the Putin Trump relationship. Keir, you added one to the top of the list. Friends without benefits. Keir Simmons, thank you so much. Greatly appreciate it. In general, that is the case, isn't it? For all that Donald Trump said about Vladimir Putin for the Helsinki press conference. For all of that, the sanctions that were leveled by the Republican Senate and House during his first term in the Democratic House were actually fierce. I'm curious what your thoughts are, because when I hear people say Putin doesn't want the war to end and he's going to keep fighting. Oil's down around 60 a barrel. His military has just been absolutely savaged. He's having to bring in North Koreans as basically cannon fodder. You could go down the list. You tell me, is Vladimir Putin in a position where he can continue fighting this war at this pace for the next year or two?
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Mark Herdling
I don't believe so, Joe. And here's what I say. First of all, I wrote down Friends without Benefits too. That that's a classic line. What I'd say is we, we just need to bring it back to the reasons why nations go to war and why they fight, and it's because of strategic objectives. Putin has an overarching strategy for Ukraine, Europe, NATO and the US And I disagree with Kirs a little bit on that. He's not looking to use Ukraine as a boundary. He's looking to subsume Ukraine. Putin has his view of history, which has been repeated in all of his lies, and it reinforces that strategy. But now in negotiation, because he knows Trump's shortcomings, he has a different communication strategy. He'll just flatter and bait. Now, Zelenskyy also has strategic objectives. He wants to defend his nation's sovereignty, its territorial integrity, get his people back that have been kidnapped, literally thousands, and see Putin held accountable for all these actions. Now, President Trump comes into this with a strategy of just to win. He wants to claim a victory, no matter the outcome for either Putin or Zelensky. He'll lean toward Putin because he wants to be friends with him. And he doesn't like Zelensky, but he wants to reinforce himself as the ultimate dealmaker. And just like you all have been talking about on Morning Joe for the last week, just like trade and tariff deals are difficult, what I'd suggest from a war fighting perspective, peace deals are even more difficult. You don't solve them. You don't negotiate in one phone call and expect both sides to give up their strategic objectives, especially when they have given the risk and reward analysis of putting men and women in combat, killing literally thousands to either maintain their territorial integrity, like Ukraine wants to do, or take over another country, which is what Putin wants to do. This isn't a real negotiation. It's theater. And so far, it's advantaged Russia, as we've seen in the readout from both countries yesterday, due to Trump's dislike of Zelinsky and wanting to have that victory, whether it's for a Nobel Peace Prize or just to prove that he can be the art of the deal guy again.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
Yeah. And Jonathan Lemire, you did hear it in the president's comments talking about, this is a European war, it should stay in Europe. One of the things that we really were able to glean off the signal chat that that that was leaked was the fact that there was contempt for inside the administration for the United States having to bail Europe out again and again and again. That's the attitude inside of the White House. But talk about the balance they're having. You do, of course, have Donald Trump and many of his top, top lieutenants saying, hey, the United States can't keep bailing Europe out. They need to do it themselves. That's one side. On the other side, you have Republicans like Chairman McCaul, Turner, others who and a hell of a lot of Republicans in the Senate who have been fierce defenders of Ukraine. And you have Lindsey Graham issuing a warning that I'm sure resonates with President Trump. If you think Afghanistan was bad for Joe Biden, just wait until you see a retreat of Ukraine and Russian forces on TV as they take over Kyiv that that would be a nightmare.
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Eugene Robinson
And Graham, one of the co sponsors of the legislation to impose tough new sanctions on Russia as well as secondary sanctions. And we know President Trump a few weeks ago, after he met with Zelenskyy at the Pope's funeral in Rome, also gave voice to the possibility of sanctions. But yesterday backed off a little bit, didn't rule them out, but said, no, it's not time yet. I want to have more ability for negotiations. But there's no question yesterday, yesterday's call achieved nothing. The two parties were already talking. They met last week in Turkey. It wasn't like that. Yesterday's call suddenly is leading to a new round of investigations, so a new round of conversations. So that's already happening. Secondly, you know we have President Trump suggest that if a deal can't get done soon, yes, he would step away from it. We know President Trump is consistent. He wants this war to proved much more difficult than he expected. 8 I have talked to say he's frustrated, but instead of at least so far injecting himself to say, look, a deal has to get done, I'm going to broker it. Now he's leaning the other way, saying I'm going to step out of it. You guys figure it out. Suggesting the Vatican could be the venue instead. And it's also telling that yesterday, no, stick all carrot. His post about this conversation with Putin talked about how the trade deals the US And Russia could strike down the road would be beneficial to both countries. Hey, let's get this war done, then we can start talking trade. That's what I'm told, what he wants. He's still leery to use sanctions. So General, I'm curious to your assessment as to just how we know Putin has. The argument's been made that Putin feels like time is on his side. And we know that he has lost a lot of manpower in this, men killed or wounded, a lot of equipment as well. That said, Russia's economy totally on a war footing as best you know. How much longer could Russia go here in terms of equipment, soldiers?
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Mark Herdling
That's a real tough question, Jonathan. What I'd say is Russia has continued to fight during times when I thought they should have given up. But they continue to get their allies, Iran, North Korea, China to provide support in different ways, in some cases manpower. But truthfully, they have lost so many on the battlefield that Putin's willingness to continue to put in these meat grinder attacks during the time that Ukraine is adapting and setting up some systems, like the potential for arms manufacturing within Ukraine, tethered drones with net warfare, the ability to overcome electronic devices on the battlefront. Ukraine is doing very well even though it has suffered incredibly. And what's important, there was a poll last night that shows Zelensky has 73% support by his population, which is higher than it's ever been. So there's still that continuum between the army of Ukraine trust its leaders, the people trust the army. They don't want to be put under Putin's thumb because most European nations who have had that happen to him before realize how bad it is. They will continue to fight. Whereas you say the risk benefits for Putin are not quite as good. Not quite as good. He's losing literally tens of thousands of men. His economy is in the toilet. He's not getting the kind of fuel resources that he's wanting. And if the United States imposed the sanctions that we have considered against Putin, and if European nations do the same thing, it could put more stress on him. And he's got to find a way out of this. And the way out is not to say, hey, I'm going to take over those five provinces within Ukraine and we'll call it a day and term it another frozen conflict. He has done that so many times in Europe, in Moldova, in Nargano, Karabakh and in Georgia that another frozen conflict inside Ukraine would just be the start of an eventual different conflict, a different phase of a campaign in the years ahead.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
All right, retired U.S. army Lieutenant General Mark Herdling, thank you so much. And as always, we all thank you for your service to our country. Greatly appreciate that.
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Mark Herdling
Thanks, Joe. Appreciate it.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
All right, thank you, Mika. You know, it's interesting, the fact that the general is talking about how the Ukrainians are adapting and they're able to respond to new, different threats. Certainly doesn't hint at or suggest. It shows the United States is still very much involved from over the past several years. It has been US Intelligence, it's been US Know how. It's been US Technology that has kept them fighting, you know, head to head with the Russians. And that is continuing right now. As the general said, if these sanctions get through the Senate and the House and are signed eventually by the president against Russia, that certainly would send a very strong message about where the United States government is.
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Jonathan Lemire
Absolutely. And it's been rocky. But Zelensky has adapted to Trump's leadership style. And Elizabeth Bumiller, if you could talk a little bit about the situation not only Zelensky is in, but also Democrats, if America continues to drag this out or back away from this.
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Keir Simmons
Right. Well, but I just want to say what struck me watching Trump yesterday was just how much Putin is still playing him. I mean, Trump went into this phone call demanding an immediate cease fire. He didn't get it. And what he got was what Putin's position was just continuing negotiations with Ukraine and cast that as a victory somehow. So, you know, it's once again Trump trying to win the next five minutes. And he is a very, very long way from an immediate cease fire and an immediate end of the war that he predicted would happen on day one. And I think Democrats have a rough time here, too, because they have been big supporters of Zelenskyy from day one. But again, the war is not that popular in the United States anymore. And there's no, it's really at a stalemate. And so they it's hard for them to support Zelenskyy right now given that this has dragged on so, so long. And there is really a weariness, I think about it. And but again, we are Trump has moved away from that disastrous Oval Office encounter with Zelensky that looks so terrible for our allies and so terrible for, you know, it was a disaster for the when the Europeans looked at it.
- [23:56]
Jonathan Lemire
All right, we're going to follow this. We have a lot more news to cover this morning. Still ahead on Morning Joe, we'll take a look at how the deadly storms sweeping across the country are highlighting concerns about President Trump's recent cuts to the National Weather Service. Plus, we're learning new details about what may have caused a Mexican naval ship to crash into the Brooklyn Bridge on Saturday. Morning Joe is back in 90 seconds.
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Joe Scarborough
Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.
- [24:34]
Jonathan Lemire
All the stories that we're covering are live and happening as we speak.
- [24:38]
Joe Scarborough
Watch your favorite shows live.
- [24:40]
Keir Simmons
What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.
- [24:44]
Joe Scarborough
Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to coverage as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why. Download the app now@msnbc.com app.
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Jonathan Lemire
Storms have left a path of destruction across parts of the US at least 28 people are dead after severe storms swept across Missouri, Kentucky and Virginia. And today, the threat continues with millions of Americans bracing for possible tornadoes, damaging hail and flooding rains. The severe weather is highlighting concerns about the Trump administration's recent cuts to the National Weather Service, leaving many offices understaffed at this critical time. For instance, in Kentucky, one weather service office no longer has overnight staffing because of a shortage of meteorologists due to doge cuts. More than 500 weather service employees were either dismissed, retired or accepted offers to leave amid the Trump administration cuts. In an effort to fill the gaps, weather service officials are offering transfers to meteorologists to fill staffing vacancies. This is one example, Joe, of life saving services that are no longer because of these cuts.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
And again, we don't know about the impact for this last storm. We do know, though, from, from what you've read and of some reports, the National Weather Service was undermanned at a time when they actually needed more workers in there. You know, we're going to talk about Newark in a minute. It's the same thing about, you know, just random cuts to the FAA and to others. And we see in this, Elizabeth, again, Elon Musk's grand idea of, of cutting like a CEO. He actually didn't cut like most CEOs I've talked to or most CEOs I know it was indiscriminate. And so you had to call nuclear workers, safety workers back, you had to call air traffic controllers back. But I can tell you, as somebody that's lived in Florida for the majority of his life. As we get into hurricane season, reports are that Musk's cuts have stopped people from being able to prepare for the next hurricane season. You look at FEMA and the fact that FEMA was actually held up as a campaign stunt last year and actually made people in North Carolina trust fema, less could go down the list. The National Weather Service. It seems to me that Russell Vogt and others who said they wanted to slash the federal government and wanted to traumatize federal workers, they got their wish. I'm not sure that America is going to be happy in many cases about what's going to come of that because many of the cuts were just so indiscriminate.
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Keir Simmons
Well, Elon Musk cut demanded cuts of 600 people from the 4,000 strong weather service. That's a lot of people. And that. And as a result, there are reports that some over 100 stations will not have overnight forecasters, which is extremely dangerous. And again, as you said, we're heading into weather season. What's striking about this is this is not one of the most expensive parts of the federal government. And once again, this is what he went after to make a point to frighten people. And yet it had very little effect on the bottom line. And there's so many cases now where you see that they claim that there was, they saved all this money and in fact, the money was already spent. So so much of the accounting was off as well anyway. And it's very alarming to people who live in areas where there are hurricanes and, and tornadoes. And it's very concerning.
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Jonathan Lemire
All right. The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating yet another brief communications outage at the facility that handles flights in and out of Newark International Airport officials say the Philadelphia control tower that manages air traffic lost radio frequencies for about two seconds yesterday morning. Still, all aircraft remained safely separated. Newark Airport has been dealing with a string of communication outages since April 28, when controllers lost track of incoming planes, causing dozens of flight diversions. I just. Joe may not fly into Newark. And who would at this point. I'm sorry, who would.
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Eugene Robinson
It is every day it feels like there's some sort of terrifying piece of news.
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Jonathan Lemire
And why, I mean, we're at four outages now. Four random outages. One was a rusted coil. What's next? What are going to be the reasons for it? They don't know. They don't know where this is coming from.
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Eugene Robinson
We had an incident in the Denver airport as well. But Newark remains the hub of all this and it's certainly becoming not just basically, frankly, almost an emergency situation, but a political embarrassment for this White House and this Trump administration who, you know, the transparency secretary Duffy has vowed to get ahead of this. He's vowed to have updated modern equipment, replace what's in there, the aging gear that's been there for decades.
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Jonathan Lemire
Okay. But that's going to take a while. Of course, there's no short term planes coming into Newark right now. If you run the, if you run this, would you take that chance?
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Eugene Robinson
I mean, they, there's no, it's the third biggest airport. You know, it's the biggest airports in the country. They can't just shut it down. But certainly, Joe. Yeah, there's real concerns right now about passengers going in and out of there. And you know, we here in the New York region, it is served by two other airports, but it's, the airspace is incredibly crowded and we're, we haven't even really hit Memorial Day is this weekend. The summer travel season is about to start and if Newark continues to have issues, there's going to be a ripple effect up and down the east coast and beyond.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
Yeah, I mean, Mika asked the question, why were you flying to Newark? Are you a Matrix fan, by the way?
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Jonathan Lemire
Okay.
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Eugene Robinson
Yeah. The first one was by far the best of those movies, but yeah, I like those movies.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
Well, I love Matrix Revolutions too. I especially loved at the end where Smith hits Mr. Anderson and he goes, why? Why, why, Mr. Anderson? Why do you insist? You know, you can't, you know, and I think for travelers that continue to fly into, into Newark, Neo speaks for all of us. Because I choose to. It's exciting. Come on.
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Jonathan Lemire
No, Josh, I mean, we'll. Mike right now.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
I keep going. I keep Going into Newark, man. I mean, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's a lot, you know, there aren't a lot of people in the airports. The United, you know, areas going into. Yeah. So much, much easier there. So tell you, I'll tell you where I flown into, though, Elizabeth, for probably landed at Reagan national, probably more than any airport in my life. I've spent my life flying in and out of there. And every time, even in the best of circumstances, when you land at Reagan, it feels like you're landing on an aircraft carrier. And I say this as somebody who's comfortable flying. And again, I spend a hell of a lot of time in the air.
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Jonathan Lemire
It's that last one.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
It's precarious, even the best of circumstances. But I'm curious, Elizabeth, what you're hearing about the fact that again, we've had, since the tragedy in January, we've had one military aircraft after another continue to come into the airspace around that airport. Do you have any insight, do you have any understanding on why it has been so hard for them to keep helicopters and military helicopters and jets out of, out of the approach path at Reagan National?
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Keir Simmons
I do not have any insight other than that. I know that there are a number of people in Washington who are avoiding flying into Reagan these days for that very reason. I was always, it was always a little dicey flying in there anyway, just because, as you say, the way the landing happens, very quickly you're over the water, then all of a sudden you're right on, you know, then all of a sudden you land. But none of us knew until recently how dicey it actually was. All I can tell you is the Pentagon is right across the Potomac, and it's right there, and there are training flights all around, and they just obviously make mistakes and get into the airspace. It is not, it is not a pleasant, it's not pleasant thinking about it. And, you know, Dulles is not that far away. It's not that much harder to fly into. So although, of course, Reagan's very convenient.
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Jonathan Capehart
Dulles is rough.
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Keir Simmons
Okay.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
It is very convenient, just like LaGuardia is very convenient. And again, LaGuardia, it's like they're throwing it down because these are airports that shouldn't be where they are. But they look at Mika, she's getting nervous. She doesn't like flying. But, but whether you look at Reagan or LaGuardia, they are not there for safety purposes. They are there for convenience purposes, and they really are just built on top in the middle of a city but that's why it's so important. Me can I know members of Congress on both sides of the aisle have complained about this at national. It is so important that they coordinate with the Pentagon and. Yeah, okay, great. Their Navy, there are army and Navy helo pilots, I guess probably mainly army pilots that are practicing up and down that river. Well, great. Don't do it in the flight path of one of the busiest airports in America.
- [34:54]
Jonathan Lemire
Seems like a good idea.
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Elizabeth Bumiller
It doesn't seem that hard to me.
- [34:57]
Jonathan Lemire
All right. Writer at large for the New York Times, Elizabeth Bumiller, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. We appreciate it. And coming up, we're going to dig into the charges a Democratic congresswoman is now facing following an incident outside an immigration detention center in New Jersey. Morning Joe. We'll be right back.
- [35:27]
Joe Scarborough
MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.
- [35:30]
Keir Simmons
We've never experienced a moment like this in our country and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be home.
- [35:47]
Jonathan Lemire
Hopeless.
- [35:48]
Keir Simmons
We have our voices and I will continue using mine.
- [35:51]
Joe Scarborough
The Briefing with Jen Psaki Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series, David Frost Versus on the next episode, Elton John, it's okay to ask for help.
- [36:06]
Eugene Robinson
I didn't think it was because I thought it was a sign of weakness.
- [36:09]
Joe Scarborough
Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [36:16]
Jonathan Lemire
It's almost 40 past the hour. The Justice Department has charged a Democratic congresswoman from New Jersey with assaulting federal agents during a clash earlier this month outside of an immigration detention center in Newark. Acting U.S. attorney for New Jersey Alina Haba made the announcement on social media yesterday accusing Congresswoman LaMonica McIver of, quote, assaulting, impeding and interfering with law enforcement. In response, McIver called the charges purely political and said she looks forward to, quote, the truth being laid out clearly in court. McIver was one of three Democratic members of the New Jersey New Jersey congressional delegation present at the Newark ICE facility on May 9. The three have maintained they were on site to inspect the facility in their capacity as lawmakers conducting federal oversight. Meanwhile, Haba Baraka said her office has dropped trespassing charges against the mayor of Newark, Raspber Baraka. He was arrested on May 9 while at the same Newark ICE facility with his Democratic colleagues. Baraka said he was glad the charges were dismissed, adding that he expected McIver to be vindicated. Let's bring in the president of the National Action Network and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton, and the co host of MSNBC's the Weeknd, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Jonathan Capehart. He's out today with a new memoir entitled Yet Here I Am, Lessons from a Black Man's Search for Home. And we'll talk about the new book, congratulations in just a moment. That's wonderful. So I've seen a lot of the different angles of this Ravel on social media, and obviously we'll have to see what plays out in court, but it appears that, that the members of the delegation believed they had a right to enter the facility and inspect it, and they were kept out. And that's when the scuffling began. What are you hearing about this? About especially what this woman, the charges she's facing, McIver and what happened?
- [38:30]
Al Sharpton
I'm hearing that they welcomed the day in court to prove what happened. I thought it was very interesting that, that they charged Congresswoman McIver and dropped the charges against the mayor. The mayor over the same scuffle. Then what did you arrest the mayor for in the first place? If McIver was the one you're saying did the assaulting, you can't have it both ways. It seems like a major, glaring contradiction to say, all right, the mayor didn't do anything wrong, but she did. But we didn't arrest her at the site. We arrested. Arrested him. So why did you arrest him then? And then why did it take you a week to come back and arrest her? I think they were trying.
- [39:10]
Jonathan Lemire
They had a right to be in there.
- [39:12]
Al Sharpton
I think that according to what I know, these were members of Congress that had federal oversight, and a mayor is dealing with a facility in his city trying to find out what's going on in that facility. He'd been there several days. So the question is, did they have the right to stop them from inspecting and seeing what's going on? And I think that they may end up with a court hearing that they do not want to have because how are they going to explain how they barred or tried to bar three members of Congress from seeing people that were under federal custody?
- [39:47]
Eugene Robinson
So, Jonathan, this is not the only high profile matter right now involving Department of Justice and elected officials. DOJ says it's opening an investigation into the City of Chicago after comments from its mayor, Brandon Johnson. While speaking at a church on Sunday, the mayor highlighted the prominent black officials in his administration. The assistant attorney general for the civil rights division announced yesterday that it. That its investigation will try to determine whether the mayor's office has engaged in a pattern or practice of racial discrimination. You have a look of disbelief on your face and certainly.
- [40:21]
Al Sharpton
Oh, yeah, that's true.
- [40:23]
Eugene Robinson
This is. Now, there's certainly been criticism growing that DOJ is sort of deliberately looking for these high profile, provocative investigations into elected officials, namely Democrats, right?
- [40:34]
Jonathan Capehart
Sort of. No, they are. This is exactly what they're doing. I'm sorry, I had to. I was like, wait, is this the Onion? No, this is real life. This is exactly what they're doing. And let's keep in mind why they're doing this. We talk about it it all the time. You guys talk about it all the time. It's for intimidation. It is to intimidate the president's critics into staying silent. And when you see ridiculous things like that in Chicago, folks can't help but rise up and speak out. I mean, people beyond rev like people who would normally not get involved in situations. The mayor of Chicago is showing the people of Chicago that he has a government that looks like their city.
- [41:23]
Al Sharpton
Right.
- [41:23]
Jonathan Capehart
That's all he's doing. And what's also equally, what's offensive about why they're opening this investigation? What? So because these officials are black, they are not qualified to be in those positions.
- [41:35]
Al Sharpton
And that is criminal. I mean, to act like it's criminal to make sure that everyone has rights. Representation is a threat to everyone. I talked to some ministers in Chicago last night that are not socially involved, that are outraged at this. I mean, what are you saying? He's not saying that we did this. The expense of others. He's showing pride. If I said, look at the amount of women we have at a certain place, is that something that I should be investigated for? This is absurd.
- [42:02]
Jonathan Lemire
We'll see what happens. Let's turn to your book. Yet here I am. Is this your official pub day?
- [42:08]
Jonathan Capehart
Yes. Today is gradual pub day. Thank you. Thank you.
- [42:12]
Jonathan Lemire
Tell us what inspired you to write the book at this time in your life?
- [42:16]
Jonathan Capehart
Well, quite honestly, a publisher reached out to me and said, have you ever thought about writing a book that would do it? Right. But I had actually gotten started in 2017 when I had all these stories in my head about my. About my childhood and particularly the summers I spent in North Carolina. I went to, you know, I'm from New Jersey, went to Catholic school in Newark, New Jersey, when I was a kid. But then during the summers, I went down south to Severn, North Carolina, with my grandparents, where my grandmother was a Jehovah's Witness. And going witnessing on those backcountry roads with my grandmother is where I learned. Started learning about race and our country and religion. And so they. They stuck with me. And so one day I just sat down, I was like, I gotta get these stories out of my head. And then it led me to write down other stories that. From my childhood, from adolescence, from my adult life, and it's become this book. And then the lessons that I learned along the way.
- [43:17]
Al Sharpton
You know, I've known you for decades now, though.
- [43:20]
Jonathan Capehart
30 years. More than 30 years, ref.
- [43:23]
Al Sharpton
And one of the things that. That I respected and then admired about you is that you were willing to take on racism, but also homophobia in the black community. Do you deal with that in the book? And how do you explain where you got the courage to stand up for both, which was not comfortable things to do?
- [43:43]
Jonathan Capehart
Well, I mean, I don't get into specific things, you know, battling those. I mean, I spent a lot of time talking about race in this book, where I talk about how in all instances, I can be too black, not black enough. And in some instances, especially when I was growing up, there were a lot of people who didn't want me to be black at all. And I write about how growing up in a predominantly white town where there's this unspoken agreement where as long as I don't talk about the fact that I'm out, that I'm black, they won't. They wouldn't have to acknowledge it. And it's all about making white people comfortable with black presence. And so in writing this book, I want people to just through my story, understand in, like, a small way what African Americans go through at all ages.
- [44:37]
Jonathan Lemire
Joe?
- [44:38]
Elizabeth Bumiller
Yeah, yeah. And talk about your personal lessons, the lessons that impacted you the most growing up. Knocking on doors with your grandmom, Walking. Walking through the town, going door to door. I mean, again, it's so different than your life in New Jersey. And I would guess going back and forth gave you better perspective than most on not only race, but also on yourself. So what's a lesson that you would like somebody to take from the book?
- [45:16]
Jonathan Capehart
Well, the number one thing that I learned going, witnessing with my grandmother in the south was humility. That the people we went to see were desperately poor, but we weren't that far behind. Even though my grandmother looked a little better, she had a nice Wig and a sack dress and her faux pearls. But she always made it clear to me that, you know, don't get it twisted. We are not far removed. But, you know, there are two lessons that I picked up on as I wrote the book. The number one lesson is whenever anyone asks you what you want, tell them. And that was when I came here to 30 Rock to visit my Uncle McKinley, who, you remember, we had him on just days before his 41st anniversary at NBC and he was about to retire. And I'm sitting in front of this woman, Anne Skakeletarian, a 17 year old kid who wanted to be a news commentator and asked her if she worked here and she said yes. And she then asked me, what do you want to be? And I said, well, first I want to be Moscow correspondent. Then I want to go to, I'm trying to decide between the White House and London. If I go to London, I want to do the White House. And then I want to come back to New York to be anchor of the Today show. And my uncle comes back and she, I say thank you. And she says, wait a minute. And she writes down the name of Kay Bradley, her phone number, rips it off and says, here, get yourself an internship on the Today show that was here in this building 40 years ago. So, so many stories like that. And then one more lesson is everything we do in life is an audition. We just don't know what for yet. And so when I was at the Post trying to figure out what am I doing and doing podcasts and doing live events and writing my columns, it all seemed disparate. They didn't connect until I got the call from MSNBC saying, we'd like for you to audition for what was AM Joy and then became the Sunday Show. But I used all the skills that I learned doing all what I thought were disparate things, weaved them together into getting a show and being your colleagues.
- [47:35]
Jonathan Lemire
The new book, yet Here I Am, Lessons From a Black Man's Search for Home, it's on sale now. Author and co host of MSNBC's the Weeknd, Jonathan Capehart, thank you and congratulations. Thank you. And Jonathan will be back with us later in the week for more on the memoir. Congratulations.
- [47:55]
Jonathan Capehart
Great.
- [47:55]
Al Sharpton
Thank you.
- [47:56]
Jonathan Lemire
Great to have you on. And still ahead, we'll take a closer look at J.D. vance's rise to power. The Atlantic's George Packer argues the vice President could have brought the country together, but instead took a divisive path. He'll join us to explain that ahead on Morning Joe before the top of the hour. There are new details this morning regarding the deadly crash involving a Mexican naval ship in New York City over the weekend. In a briefing yesterday, the NTSB revealed that less than a minute before the vessel struck the Brooklyn Bridge, a radio call went out asking for help from any additional tugboats in the area, followed by other requests for assistance. Investigators also say the ship accelerated suddenly in the wrong direction before impact. It's unclear what caused the craft to pick up speed. Two Mexican naval cadets were killed and nearly two dozen others were injured in the incident. Officials say it could take up to two years, Jonathan. To complete the investigation. It's just crazy.
- [49:12]
Eugene Robinson
It is.
- [49:12]
Jonathan Lemire
It's still there.
- [49:13]
Eugene Robinson
The boat is still docked along the East River. There you go. Can see it. The masts shattered.
- [49:17]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah.