Morning Joe 5/2/25

Summary

Morning Joe Episode Summary: May 2, 2025

Hosts: Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, and Willie Geist
Guests: Jonathan Lemire, Pablo Torre, David Ignatius, Katie K, Stephanie Rules, Mara Gay, and others
Release Date: May 2, 2025

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1. Reassignment of Mike Waltz: A Promotion or a Demotion?

[01:03 – 15:33]

The episode begins with a heated discussion surrounding President Donald Trump’s decision to remove Mike Waltz from his position as National Security Adviser, promoting him to the role of U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations. This move has sparked debate among the hosts and guests regarding whether it constitutes a genuine promotion or a strategic demotion.

Willie Geist expresses skepticism:
"I think they're holding the wrong guy accountable." [01:03]

Jonathan Lemire concurs, questioning the administration's accountability measures:
"The question is whether the right person's being held accountable." [01:18]

David Ignatius provides context, highlighting Waltz’s strained relationships within the Trump administration and suggests that Waltz may be a "fall guy" for recent scandals:
"Waltz did not work well with senior members of the Trump team and could not prove to the president he was able to manage his own staff." [15:05]

Pablo Torre adds that the administration may be attempting to sidestep direct accountability by reassigning Waltz rather than outright dismissal:
"This as a firing doesn't give them any scalps to the media that they don't want to have any immediate firings." [10:30]

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2. Foreign Policy Under Trump: Chaos in Decision-Making

[06:25 – 18:39]

The conversation shifts to the broader implications of the Trump administration’s foreign policy, particularly focusing on the recent ruling against the use of the Alien Enemies Act by a Trump-appointed judge in Texas.

Mika Brzezinski remarks on the global perception of the U.S., noting:
"The president is still seen as suspiciously neocon and pushing hard sanctions against Russia and Iran, which the administration resists." [07:34]

David Ignatius elaborates on the international backlash against Trump’s policies, emphasizing the difficulty allies face in predicting U.S. actions:
"Trump decides, Trump takes away. Trump wakes up one morning and he says mean things about Putin, and the next morning changes his mind." [16:13]

Willie Geist points out the confusion stemming from overlapping roles within the administration:
"Marco Rubio, who used to be seen as on the outs, has managed to charm his way into Trump's inner circle." [13:19]

The hosts discuss the destabilizing effects of such unpredictable leadership on international relations, highlighting concerns from allied nations about the consistency and reliability of U.S. foreign policy.

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3. The New York Knicks’ Dramatic Victory

[03:16 – 04:15; 36:32 – 42:34]

Shifting to sports, the panel covers last night’s thrilling game where the New York Knicks clinched a crucial victory against the Detroit Pistons, advancing to the Eastern Conference semifinals against the Boston Celtics.

Jonathan Lemire recaps the game-winning moment:
"Jalen Brunson buries it. A 40-point night from Brad Brunson as the Knicks eliminate the Detroit Pistons. 116-113 on the road in game six of that first-round series." [36:32]

Pablo Torre commends the Knicks’ performance, especially noting their resilience:
"They won three road games in that series. That's legitimate. Detroit was up for it." [04:15]

Katie K praises Jalen Brunson’s clutch performance, calling it legendary:
"Jalen Brunson has established himself as not merely one of the most clutch players in the league, but clearly one of the most clutch players in NBA recent history." [38:27]

The discussion highlights the Knicks' strategic gameplay and sets the stage for their upcoming challenges against a well-rested and seasoned Celtics team, sparking excitement and anticipation for the next series.

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4. Personal Turmoil: Bill Belichick’s Relationship Under Scrutiny

[42:48 – 46:45]

A significant portion of the episode delves into the personal life of NFL legend Bill Belichick. The hosts express concern over his public relationship with a much younger woman, Jordan Hudson, and how it may be affecting his professional demeanor.

Jonathan Lemire introduces the topic:
"Some friends and even members of the family of Bill Belichick say they're a little worried about the 73-year-old football coach over his relationship with his 24-year-old girlfriend, Jordan Hudson." [43:25]

Katie K voices her unease regarding Belichick’s behavior:
"Nobody in sports and possibly human civilization is acting more unlike his previous self than Bill Belichick." [44:10]

Pablo Torre echoes these sentiments, noting the uncharacteristic public behavior:
"He's been ceding control over wide swaths of his life, such as promoting a book and handling media interactions differently." [46:11]

The panel debates whether Belichick’s personal choices are indicative of deeper issues, pondering the impact on his legacy and effectiveness as a coach.

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5. Economic Impact of Trump’s Tariffs: Small Businesses in Jeopardy

[52:33 – 61:29]

A major focus of the episode is the economic fallout from President Trump’s imposition of tariffs, which are intended to protect American manufacturing but have led to significant challenges for small businesses and consumers.

Mika Brzezinski outlines the concerns:
"The chamber's CEO says she's speaking up for Main Street companies that don't have the lobbyists and lawyers like big public names." [53:08]

David Ignatius discusses the widespread impact, citing specific examples:
"GM warning investors of current tariff exposure of 4 to 5 billion dollars. Hershey says tariffs will cost it up to 20 million dollars this quarter." [53:23]

Joe Scarborough criticizes the administration’s approach:
"Donald Trump is using a blunt instrument and saying, well, I'll damage everything first and see what happens later." [58:12]

Katie K highlights the disproportionate effect on smaller businesses:
"Small business owners, family-run restaurants, and local hardware stores are all going to be absolutely hammered." [58:31]

Jonathan Lemire underscores the financial strain, sharing anecdotes from toy store owners facing increased costs:
"A toy store owner said we need to know what toys you're willing to pay 20 to 25% more for because those are the only toys we're going to be able to afford to order." [55:26]

The hosts debate the long-term sustainability of these tariffs, questioning whether short-term political gains justify the significant economic disruptions. They express concern over the lack of exemptions for industries beyond apparel and worry about the broader implications for American manufacturing and consumer prices.

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6. Upcoming Segments and Conclusion

[47:23 – End]

As the episode progresses, the hosts tease upcoming discussions, including the implications of recent judicial rulings on the Alien Enemies Act, the ongoing Ukraine-Russia negotiations, and further economic analysis.

Mika Brzezinski wraps up by highlighting the interconnectedness of these issues:
"We’re going to talk about how these tariffs are impacting everybody from Tim Cook to Elon Musk, and small business owners across the country." [59:44]

Joe Scarborough concludes with a call for nuanced economic strategies:
"What is this about? It really doesn't feel like it was well thought through at all." [59:44]

The episode closes with a recapitulation of the key discussions, emphasizing the need for informed debate and comprehensive analysis to navigate the complex political and economic landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• Willie Geist:
  "I think they're holding the wrong guy accountable." [01:03]

• David Ignatius:
  "Trump decides, Trump takes away. Trump wakes up one morning and he says mean things about Putin, and next morning changes his mind." [16:13]

• Jonathan Lemire:
  "Jalen Brunson buries it. A 40-point night as the Knicks eliminate the Detroit Pistons." [36:32]

• Katie K:
  "Nobody in sports and possibly human civilization is acting more unlike his previous self than Bill Belichick." [44:10]

• Joe Scarborough:
  "Donald Trump is using a blunt instrument and saying, well, I'll damage everything first and see what happens later." [58:12]

Conclusion

This episode of Morning Joe provides a comprehensive analysis of significant political reshuffles within the Trump administration, the economic repercussions of protective tariffs, and notable moments in the sports world. The hosts and guests engage in in-depth discussions, offering diverse perspectives and expert insights, making it a valuable resource for listeners seeking to understand the multifaceted issues shaping the nation.

Transcript

[Joe Scarborough]

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[Willie Geist]

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[Joe Scarborough]

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[Mika Brzezinski]

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[Willie Geist]

I think they're holding the wrong guy accountable.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah.

[Willie Geist]

I mean, I think that's where the accountability should be. Not with the national Security advisor. That's my view.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Have you guys got.

[Willie Geist]

So I was surprised to see this.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I think they fired the wrong guy. The question is whether the right person's being held accountable.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I think there has to be accountability for the mistakes and the errors that have been made. But I think the Secretary of Defense ought to bear that responsibility.

[David Ignatius]

What's wrong?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Overdue.

[David Ignatius]

I mean, he's the guy who started.

[Joe Scarborough]

The unclassified text chain when there were classified channels available.

[David Ignatius]

His responsibility. But I also think Pig Hexseth needs to be fired as well.

[Mika Brzezinski]

After all, Mr. Hegseth is the person who put the classified information on that.

[Joe Scarborough]

Text chain, who then also shared that same classified information on a separate text.

[David Ignatius]

Chain involving his wife. For crying out loud.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I think the president is getting rid.

[Joe Scarborough]

Of Mike Walsh and is protecting Hecseth.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Hey, that's Democrats in the Senate who are reacting to President Trump's removing Mike Waltz from his role as National Security adviser. Some are suggesting a different cabinet member should have been removed. Instead. We're going to have a lot more about Waltz's next role in the administration. Also, Ed, we're going to be digging into the most expansive ruling yet on the use of the Alien Enemies Act. It's a fascinating decision coming out of Texas with a Trump judge. He was appointed by Donald Trump in Trump's first term, and he permanently barred the administration from using the 18th century wartime law. Good morning. Welcome. Morning. Joe, it's Friday, May 2nd, Mika's birthday tomorrow, Willie's birthday. And of course, as we said, we're going to have an all star special Saturday morning Special starting at 3am with Willie Geiss celebrating that birthday. We look forward to that, Willie.

[Jonathan Lemire]

But be up from the night before. Joe, as you said, with the tuxedo tie undone, a little drink in my hand, kind of rambling through some of the callers at that telethon.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I am telling you, we have to do a Jerry Lewis telephone redo right here on Morning Joe around Labor Day, all with the big tuxes and the ties and everything. Willie, we could, we have a lot to get to. But I know for a lot of New Yorkers they want to talk about one thing and that is the New York Knicks. Tell us about it.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Unbelievable finish last night for the New York Knicks. One of the best shots in the history of our franchise coming from our franchise player Jalen Brunson. It was just like almost every, every game in this series they were up double digits. Then they went down, it looked like they were going to lose. They had a big run to end the game. And then this play with time winding down, Jalen Brunson on a defender in Thompson who had been awesome on him and G, look at this, loses him, hits the three game winner. The Pistons did have another possession with about 4 seconds left and they had a turnover to end the game. The Knicks win the game in Detroit, avoiding anything goes game seven and now advance to play the Boston Celtics in the semifinals. So boy, this was a hard fought series. Huge credit to the Pistons who were, you know, a terrible team last year. They're tough, they're good, they got a bright future. But last night Jalen Brunson with an all time shot for the Knicks.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, and luckily we have at the snorky Boston fan desk Jonathan Lemire to tell us what happens when they play Boston.

[Pablo Torre]

No, I'm going to start. I'm going to go counterintuitive and compliment the Knicks to start.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Oh, come on, you don't compliment New York.

[Pablo Torre]

No, it's rare. Look, they won three road games in that series. That's legitimate. Detroit was up for it.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Good.

[Pablo Torre]

Congrats to Jalen Brunson on that shot. Yeah, Celtics Monday. This will be fun. The downside for me as a Boston fan in New York is very high. If the Knicks were to lose, the Knicks were to win, it would be pretty insufferable. Celtics though rightly favored, they won all four times they played this year. Three of them handily. They're the defending champs. They will have home court advantage and they will have had just about a week, week off while the Knicks, so they'll be better rested and healthier than the Knicks, but I think it'll be a good series. I'd rather talk about the Celtics than the Red Sox.

[Mika Brzezinski]

We are also speaking of Boston sports teams. We're going to be talking more about Bill Belichick. Like what, what's that about? I mean, you got Charles Barkley coming out saying he's worried about. Anyway, we have a lot to talk about. We're going to be talking sports for four hours because this is Mika's, of course, birthday and she's sitting at home saying get to the news. Which means we're going to bring in us special correspondent for BBC News and the host of the rest is Politics, Katie K. She's going to explain to us the intricacies of cricket and the rules. Also, staff writer at the Atlantic, Anne Applebaum, who has let us know she doesn't do sports. And also columnist and the associator for the Washington Post, David Ignatius. And also NBC night NBC News national security editor David Droad. And before we go, before we go to Willie and actually get to the news of the day, you know, I was absolutely fascinated by what happened in Canada last week. We've seen this happening. You know, the right wing parties underperformed in Germany from what they were supposed to be doing. Still. Yeah, one in five is deeply concerning. I am curious, though, what's happening in Poland. Are we seeing something similar with the presidential election coming up? Are we seeing something similar there that we saw with Mark Carney in Canada?

[David Ignatius]

You're certainly seeing parties that were planning to run on Trump or run on their similarity to Trump running into a huge wall of public opposition. I mean, I think that's true almost everywhere in Europe that the countries, the political parties who thought, you know, you know, we're going to be sort of Maga lite. We're going to be, we're going to do nationalism. We're going to echo Trump's rhetoric. We're going to win on that. That just doesn't work anymore.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah. You know, there's been this belief for some time, you know, this rising populist movement in the west that was going to overtake all of these countries time and time again. As John Meacham would say, it's a good starter, it's a weak finisher. I mean, you look at France, I can't last two elections In France, you know, at least in the U.S. the media's been going, this is a 50, 50 race. This is Le Pen and Macron. And last time, I'm like, McCrone get 58%, which he did. I mean, I'm not saying populists can't win in Europe, but usually it seems that the parties are starting to adjust, and there is a backlash to what's happening in America.

[David Ignatius]

So the United States, as the leader of the democratic world, does set a kind of example or a kind of model. And people are looking at the Trump model, and they're afraid of it. They're afraid both because it affects their own security, because Trump attacks allies, because they're the allies who are being attacked, but also because they see the chaos, they see the economic chaos, they see the political chaos, and they don't want that, and they're afraid of it. And so once people start to associate that with the far right, you know, you're right. There will be a political impact of that. I mean, there are still. Some of the underlying issues are still there. The far right is still very good at using social media to make people afraid and make people angry and make people divided. So none of that's going away. Right, but you're. But you're right that there is a strange reverse Trump effect, at least in some countries.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And again in Poland, obviously, the historic fear grounded in reason of Russia and Russian aggression, of course, not eased over the past three months. Hey, Willie. A lot of moves in Washington and the Trump administration yesterday. Take us through them.

[Jonathan Lemire]

All right, well, let's start with Mike Waltz. He no longer is the national security adviser. President Trump made that announcement yesterday on Truth Social, saying he instead is nominating Waltz to be UN Ambassador. Secretary of State Marco Rubio will now serve as the interim national security adviser while holding on to his current positions. He's got a few of them. The Deputy National Security Adviser, Alex Wong, also leaving the Trump administration. Waltz has been facing increased scrutiny since March, when the editor in chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, revealed he was added to a Signal Group chat with administration officials in which they discussed Yemen attack plans. Waltz took responsibility for creating that chat and for accidentally adding Goldberg. At that time, Trump publicly stood by Waltz, telling reporters Waltz had learned his lesson and that he's a good man. Last week, in an interview with the Atlantic, the president said Waltz is, quote, fine despite being beat up by the Signal Chat controversy. Now, the Atlantic reports Waltz's issues within the Trump administration predated that scandal. People familiar with the matter say Waltz did not work well with senior members of the Trump team and could not prove to the president he was able to manage his own staff. Yesterday, Waltz acknowledged the change in his role, writing on social media. I am deeply honored to continue my service to President Trump and our great Nation. Vice President J.D. vance told Fox News. This should be seen as a step up for Waltz.

[Katie K]

It wasn't let go.

[Pablo Torre]

He is being made ambassador to the.

[Mika Brzezinski]

United nations, which of course is a Senate confirmed position. I think you can make a good argument that it's a promotion. But we brought Mike on to do.

[Pablo Torre]

Some serious reforms of the National Security Council. He has done that.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I think the media wants to frame.

[Pablo Torre]

This as a firing.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Donald Trump has fired a lot of people.

[Pablo Torre]

He doesn't give them Senate confirmed appointments afterwards. What he thinks is that Mike will.

[Katie K]

Waltz is going to better serve the.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Administration, most importantly the American people in that role. And I happen to agree with him.

[Jonathan Lemire]

So, David Ignatius, you've been reporting on this story quite a bit. Mike Waltz, maybe never a favorite of the die hard Trump loyalists. On the other hand, Pete Hegseth, the defense Secretary, who as we heard many senators saying yesterday, thought he should have been the one to lose his job. He hangs on to his job a little bit more popular with the MAGA movement. So what's your sense of what exactly happened here?

[Willie Geist]

So, Willie, I'd say first of all, Walt is the fall guy for what we call Signalgate. He originated the chat, it seems he had Jeffrey Goldberg, our Atlantic friend, on his contact list and somehow he got in that chat. So that's a part of this. There have been rumors for many weeks that the White House was interviewing for a successor to Waltz as national security adviser. A lot of people it said didn't want the job, were nervous about it. I reported this morning that beneath the obvious explanation of Signalgate, you see that all the cross currents, ideological personality, other factors beneath Trump, Trump. Trump is really the only solid pole in his administration beneath him. I said there are really three discernible groups. One is around JD Vance, we call them the kind of MAGA believers supported by Trump's own son, Donald Trump Jr. Who's playing a role in this administration very much like Jared Kushner and his wife Ivanka, Trump's daughter played in the first Trump term. There's another group that I'd say Waltz was part of the traditional national security Republicans. And then there's a third fascinating group, the big business billionaires, the oligarchs, Elon Musk, obviously, Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary. So there is this ferment underneath Trump, and we saw a bit of it, I think, in yesterday's action. Waltz will be away from the White House where there wasn't good chemistry between him and Trump. And interestingly, Marco Rubio, who used to be seen as on the outs, has managed to charm his way into Trump's inner circle, has been very supportive. Never see Marco Rubio say anything but great job, Mr. President. He's now going to be at Trump's side as the temporary National Security adviser. So, you know, Trump world spins underneath. But you must, you know, recognize that there is, is one person making policy. Don't know what it is from day to day sometimes, but that's Donald Trump.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, the guy used to call Little Marco is now doing the full Kissinger. I mean, secretary, national Security Advisor. Let's talk. Everybody's on signal gate and I get that. But let's talk about ideologically, what lies beneath, and that is this is a guy who's still seen suspiciously as a neocon. He's been pushing hard for tough sanctions, real sanctions against Putin and Russia if they don't come through on the cease fire. And even this past week, reports are that he was pushing really hard inside the administration for really tough measures taken against Russia if they don't, if they don't step into their own. That's just not what the president or the administration wants to do.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah, he just was never a good fit. There were voices like Mike Waltz's in Trump's first term. In the second term, he has little patience for dissenting points of view. He was right from the beginning. He was not seen as sufficiently loyal. He was not seen as MAGA enough. He was indeed too much of a traditional Republican or a neocon. Trump liked him because he thought he'd be a strong defender of his policies on television. They then felt like that wasn't working either. Waltz was not doing a good job on tv, which matters too much to this president. Let's not to overlook the Laura Loomer moment here where she came into the Oval Office a few weeks ago, got some of Waltz's staff fired. Also planted more seeds of doubt with Trump about Waltz himself. Signalgate was sort of the final straw, but it wasn't the only thing that was going on here. And in fact, the administration was so dead set on not giving any, in their words, any scalps to the media that they didn't want to have any immediate firings. Trump himself said, I don't want Anything to disrupt, as we report in that Atlantic story, for the first hundred days.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, you know, that's one of the things that was surprising when I heard the news. So wait a second. This goes against his, his hope that there's not that turnover. And then we saw later in the afternoon, actually, he's moving him to what JD Vance said was actually promotion. I was just joking during the clip. I wonder if Jimmy Carter had tried to sell that to Dr. Brzezinski, how that would have gone.

[Pablo Torre]

You could, as the vice president said, you can make the argument that it's a promotion.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Not a good argument.

[Pablo Torre]

But we also should note the calendar here. He didn't want any changes. The first hundred days Waltz out on day 101. That was part of this as well. So, Ann, let's talk about the bigger implications here for Waltz's move, because as we, as some of our colleagues at the Atlantic noted, even in the initial hours, this was seen as some alarm with some allies because Waltz was more of a conventional Republican believer in NATO. Yet Trump himself in the last week or so has toyed with the idea of Russian sanctions, but certainly not to the degree that Waltz was pushing, because there's lack of a ceasefire. So talk to us about how this will be perceived around the world as, again, what Trump 2.0 really means in terms of foreign policy.

[David Ignatius]

So it's even deeper and weirder than just NATO. What we're seeing is a kind of patrimonialist paternalist administration where only one person makes decisions. You know, Trump decides, Trump takes away. Trump wakes up one morning and he says mean things about Putin, and he wakes up the next morning and changes his mind. And that's very, very hard for American, all allies, for American partners, for American trading partners to understand and to be able to plan. You know, they don't have anybody to talk to in this administration. They're not sure. When they speak to somebody at the National Security Council, are they speaking to someone who represents the president? When they talk to someone at the State Department, is it someone who represents the president? Even the fact that Marco Rubio is now Secretary of State, acting National Security adviser, he's also acting head of usaid, and I believe he's still acting head of the National Archives.

[Pablo Torre]

He has four jobs. That's right.

[David Ignatius]

That's right. That, that, that's not a good sign. It means that none of these institutions is being properly run or properly taken seriously or has real leadership. And that's confusing for anyone who's trying to plan a strategy, who's trying to understand how to talk to the United States, how to understand what our trade policy is, our NATO policy, our military policy.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And by the way, and that's not just, that's not just among the chocolate makers of Europe as, as Rumsfeld would say, these are some hardcore supporters of Donald Trump across the world. You go through the Middle east and you, you know, and they will say, well, you know, there's some good things. We can get things done more quickly. We don't have to worry about the red tape. And that's great. But just like you said, every morning they wake up, they're wondering which direction is he going to go today? What are we going to need to change today?

[David Ignatius]

Yeah, I talked to a Middle Eastern ambassador not that long ago who is from a Trump country that's very pro Trump and is very excited about him having won the election. And it was exactly that kind of caution. So, okay, it's great that he's there. But, you know, he had one policy on Gaza a couple weeks ago and he might have a different one next week, and he's not very interested in the details of actually how you would, what's going to happen to the Palestinian people who live there. He doesn't care about them. And we're not sure who else around is going to be making that decision, if anybody.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah.

[David Ignatius]

Well, I guess, David, one of the people that won't be is Mike Waltz. J.D. vance's line about this being a promotion was just mildly less implausible than Senator Mullens, who said yesterday that what actually this was about was Waltz wanting to spend time with his young family and the idea that you would then take on the UN Ambassadorship because you want a family time. But anyway, he seemed to insist that was the case. One thing that I have heard is that this was from the groups, the sort of three groups that David Ignatius was laying out, that the first group with the J.D. vance, who were the real Hawks, and John Don Jr. Is that they also are looking at Iran and Russia. And they felt that Mike Waltz was being too tough on Iran, and they also felt they didn't want him to push Russia as hard as he's been pushing from within the White House. Can you lay out that theory anymore and why that might have got Waltz out of sorts with the president in the White House?

[Willie Geist]

Because it's, I think it's pointing out this basic problem of the president achieving what he promised. There's no peace in Ukraine. After a single day, he's talking about an Iran deal That looks a lot like the Obama deal with Iran that he canceled. And it's, it's not a promotion if there's a backwater for the Trump administration, it's the UN and the broader problem is just the utter lack of experience on the entire national security team. Other than Marco Rubio, who has tremendous experience in Congress. You've got Pete Hegset, Seth, who's struggling to run the Pentagon. Waltz is now out, and he's a decorated special forces soldier. He serves this country incredibly well and was put in a very difficult position. He had no experience to serve as national security adviser. So you see this over and over again. Loyalty to the president, people who will message and give these sort of simple answers to the MAGA base and change and chaos and instability. It's similar in some ways to the first term.

[Pablo Torre]

We should note some of the political implications here. This does seem to buy Hegseth some time, but Mike Waltz now has to go to a confirmation hearing. Signal gate is going to dominate that hearing. Not great for him, but also going to revive some questions about Hegseth, no doubt, and that whole scandal.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Joe.

[Pablo Torre]

And we should also note that the Trump administration picked three Republicans from the House to fill positions within the administration. Matt Gaetz never made it. Elise Stefanik had to be withdrawn from UN Ambassador. And now Mike Waltz, losing the national security advisor.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yes.

[Pablo Torre]

Gets a consolation prize in Turtle Bay, but gave up a very safe congressional seat for a pretty tough 100 days.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, and most likely a tough election coming up next year. So, David Ignatius, if you could follow up on Ann Applebaum's observation about how allies and those who see themselves as adversaries wake up every morning trying to figure out exactly what's going to go on inside the White House, what's happening with negotiations. Fascinating to hear somebody close to the president not liking Waltz because he's too tough on Iran. Come on, what is this? I mean, so anyway, I'm curious. At least in New York, it did not, it was not passed over lightly that the New York Post, Murdoch's New York Post, absolutely eviscerated politically deboned Witkoff, who is sort of Donald Trump's point man out there. I mean, that was a strong message from Rupert Murdoch to the Trump White House that in their opinion, at least, that this guy is a clown. And yet he's running point from Russia to Iran to the Middle East. So what are you hearing in your reporting about concerns about U.S. foreign policy and who's running?

[Willie Geist]

So, Joe, as the Waltz news was breaking, I happened to be talking to several senior foreign officials and their reaction was astonishment. Mike Waltz is the traditional American national security figure. The time he served in Special Forces is widely respected. He's an orderly person. He runs the National Security Council the way it typically is run. And people were just flummoxed. I think part of the uncertainty that people have is that the two key negotiating roles with Iran and with Russia have been given to somebody who has essentially no foreign policy negotiating experience, namely Steve Waltz, President's best friend, fellow billionaire, fellow real estate dealer. People say he's a tough bargainer as you can be in business, but that he has no background in these areas. So our allies are wondering, where is this guy going? These are big consequential negotiations. What Europe has done is say, okay, America, you handle Russia, you get concessions from Russia. Trump finally seems to be willing to push a little bit with sanctions. Other pressure against Russia and Europe says, we'll handle Ukraine. We'll bring Ukraine into this negotiation. And as unwieldy as that process sounds, it's actually begun to make some small progress. We're a little closer today to having an agreement that might actually protect Ukraine's security going forward after a cease fire than we were two, three weeks ago. So as unwieldy as this process is, just recently, there's been progress. I think the agreement that they signed yesterday providing for what they now call a reconstruction investment fund for Ukraine, shows that there's some positive evolution, but it is coming out of a really unwieldy policy process.

[Jonathan Lemire]

The devil will be in the details. As always, the Washington Post, David Ignatius. David, thanks so much. As always. We appreciate it. Still ahead on MORNING joe, China is signaling a willingness to at least begin trade talks with the United States. We'll go over what Beijing is saying this morning and what it could mean for the US Economy. Plus, one of the nation's busiest airports is warning about out more possible delays and cancellations as we head into the summer travel season. After a day of major ground stops, we'll have much more on that when MORNING JOE comes back in just 90 seconds.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Your new beginning starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area, Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you. Learn [e-mail] Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder. Building a business may feel like a.

[Jonathan Lemire]

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[Mika Brzezinski]

Lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can.

[Jonathan Lemire]

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[Mika Brzezinski]

To fit your needs.

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Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

[Joe Scarborough]

Imagine what's possible in your business career when learning doesn't get in the way of life. At Capella University, our game changing flexpath learning format is available in select business programs and lets you learn at a time and pace that works for you. That means you don't have to put your life on hold while earning your business degree. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn [e-mail].

[Jonathan Lemire]

The Transportation Secretary is warning this morning of cracks in the system after travelers at Newark Airport once again faced hours, long delays and disruptions yesterday. NBC News senior correspondent Tom Costello has.

[Willie Geist]

The latest at one of America's busiest airports gridlock, 24 hours of ground stops and delays at Newark International, a critical hub for United arriving flights delayed 5 to 12 hours.

[Jonathan Lemire]

All we know that this is an ATCFAA issue.

[Willie Geist]

This red eye flight from San Francisco to Newark turned around mid flight on the west coast.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Passengers waiting in long line.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, this is rough.

[Willie Geist]

The FAA blames the chaos on equipment.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Issues, Runway construction at Newark and staffing issues at Philadelphia tracon, which guides aircraft in and out of the airport. What I think you're seeing is you're starting to see cracks in the system. Still short some 3,000 controllers nationwide, the DOT unveiled plans to staff up within three to four years, including recruiting more.

[Willie Geist]

Military controllers, bonuses for academy grants and.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Veteran controllers who don't leave before mandatory retirement.

[Willie Geist]

At 56, one newer controller tells NBC.

[Mika Brzezinski]

News they lost radars on Monday, radios on Wednesday and things need to change. It's not a safe situation for the flying public.

[Willie Geist]

The FAA and the ATC union insist air travel is safe.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I think this is a pivotal moment.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Of seeing what the stresses and pressures of this career path path are stress.

[Willie Geist]

And strain with summer travel weeks away.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Tom Costello reporting there. Joe Yesterday the FAA at Newark, which is obvious a major hub in The New York area, creating domino effects across the country and around the world, actually into Europe as well. Said that the average delay on departures was five hours. The average delay on arrivals was about an hour and a half. Just a complete mess. And perhaps a preview of coming attractions this summer with those staffing shortages.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, I will say, post COVID 19, post pandemic, we have had some pretty grisly summer summers of travel. Just absolutely dismal. Let's hope this is not the start of yet another one. And let's get back to the Russian, the Russian Ukraine negotiation right now, David, seems a bit bullish that we're moving in the right direction. We certainly haven't heard that from the Hill and haven't heard that from a lot of. I guess the question is, the central question is, does Vladimir Putin want peace?

[David Ignatius]

So he has given no indication in public, nor have any of his propagandists or people who speak for him given any indication that he wants to end the war or that he wants Ukraine to emerge as a sovereign country with its own ability to make policy and, and to create a relationship with Europe and to join the European Unions. He's never acknowledged it. He's still talking about, essentially, regime change in Ukraine. He's still talking about, you know, Ukrainians as Nazis. I mean, all that, none of that is gone. And so you have to ask, have the Russians moved at all? Have they made any concessions?

[Mika Brzezinski]

And actually, why would Putin move again? I mean, my operating theory is that since he was burning papers in the East German embassy in 1989, his dream has been to reconstitute the old Russian empire. Not the Soviet Union, but the old Russian empire, get Kyiv, get Odessa and return to glory. Why would he change that if he doesn't have a president pushing him every day?

[David Ignatius]

No, that's absolutely true. And of course, now he has an even bigger goal. So now his goal is also undermine the Western alliance, undermine international law, demonstrate that he can break all the rules, he can break the Geneva Conventions, he can kidnap Ukrainian children, 20,000 Ukrainian children, and he can get away with it. And he's trying to show that the post war world that we led and that we helped to build doesn't exist anymore. And that's actually his real purpose now.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So how. How does a leader from a country that has a GDP that is smaller than the state of Texas cause so much unrest in the United States and the west over the past nine years? Talk about punching above your weight. It's extraordinary.

[David Ignatius]

It's partly because he has allies here and has had for some time. So he has American, you know, so called journalists and propagandists who are willing to repeat what he says. He's effectively used social media. He has allies in the business community. You know, he has had allies in the New York real estate community. A lot of money that came into real estate, which came through shell companies into buildings like the ones that Donald Trump built. He's been building this kind of influence mechanism for a long time. And it's not, ait's not something that's secret. It's not spies who are doing it. Most of it's in the open. He was the Russian state media was paying a Tennessee based media company to produce videos and we learned that last summer.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And by the way, they're still interviewing people in the administration. They're still those same people that were getting paid by Russia through this shell corporation are still.

[David Ignatius]

One of them is now in the White House press corps.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, exactly. David, your thoughts?

[Willie Geist]

One of them is, I don't know if he was paid, but is the nominee to be the U.S. attorney in Washington, Ed Martin.

[Pablo Torre]

Yeah.

[Willie Geist]

Who participated or had a role, was there on January 6th. And then he's had over, I believe, 100 appearances on RT. So that is the key thing of the alliances. And then again with Putin, it's the sheer ruthlessness which he uses in Russia. He can have so many soldiers, young soldiers die and be wounded in Ukraine and survive politically. He can, can, you know, bluntly kill off his enemies. And that works when you have a United States that's going, that's divided going back.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So why did we always hear there were 40,000 people killed and Russians killed in Afghanistan and the mothers rose up and basically brought the Soviet leadership down to force them to bring Russians home. Why the mass of the casualties? Approaching a million and we still don't see that happening.

[David Ignatius]

So actually, the late 80s, the 80s in Russia were a time when there was more openness and people were more willing to listen to the powers that be, were more willing to listen to public opinion than now. I don't think people have really understood the degree to which Putin has turned back the clock in Russia, not to the Gorbachev era or not into the late 80s, but into something earlier. It's a very, very harsh, very strict police state now.

[Mika Brzezinski]

All right, NBC News national security editor David Rhode and staff writer for the Atlantic and Applebaum, thank you both so much. Come back soon and report on the Polish election as we move forward. When's the first round?

[David Ignatius]

I think it's May 18th.

[Mika Brzezinski]

May 18th. Okay. We will be carrying that live anyway. Coming up, the New York Knicks big win last night. We're going to be talking about that to what's going on with Bill Belich. A lot to cover this morning with Pablo Tor. He joins us next on Morning Joe. Foreign starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area, Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you. Learn more @ Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing Opportunity Builder. Building a business may feel like a.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Big jump, but on deck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, Ondeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan.

[Mika Brzezinski]

To fit your needs.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank On Deck does not lend in North Dakota.

[Mika Brzezinski]

All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

[Joe Scarborough]

Imagine what's possible in your business career when learning doesn't get in the way of life at Capella University. Our game Changing flexpath learning format is available in select business programs and lets you learn at a time and pace that works for you. That means you don't have to put your life on hold while earning your business degree. Instead, enjoy learning your way and earn your degree without missing a beat. A different future is closer than you think with Capella University. Learn more at capella.edu.

[Willie Geist]

Bridget to Brunson defended by Thompson 15 seconds left.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Brunson takes a peek at the clock.

[Willie Geist]

Thompson digging into defensively.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Eight seconds. Brunson stops at a dime, launches. Oh yeah. Jalen Brunson buries it.

[Jonathan Lemire]

What a shot. Jalen Brunson seals the series for the Knicks with that tie breaking three pointer with four seconds left in regulation, losing his defender Aura Thompson and then calmly draining the 3. A 40 point night from Brad Brunson as the Knicks eliminate the Detroit Pistons. 116, 113 on the road in game six of that first round series. As we mentioned earlier, the Knicks now advance to play the defending champions Celtics in the Eastern conference semifinals. Game 1 Monday night in Boston. Meanwhile, late last night in The Western Conference. Yes. There will now be a decisive Game 7 in Denver on Saturday because the Clippers got even against the Nuggets last night. A 111, 105 win at home. Joining us now, the host of Pablo Torre finds out on Meadowlark Media, MSNBC contributor, our good friend, Pablo Torre. Pablo, good to see you holding up the back page.

[Katie K]

That's right. Look at this, Willie. We got. We got subway crime and also that subway.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And mercy, mercy me, New York is back, Joe. New York is. Could not be more rapid. Exactly.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah. I mean, Pablo, back page of the Post calling Jalen Brunson a legend, if he wasn't already. He certainly is. It was. This series was. Last night was a perfect encapsulation of the series, which is the Knicks go up, then they fall apart. They go down. They were up by 11 points in the fourth quarter. Then they're down by 7 points in the fourth quarter, then they fight their way back and Brunson hits the big shot. Pistons turn the ball over. I had a chance actually to tie it at an open look, but the ball went out of bounds. Your assessment of Jalen Brunson, for starters. And then looking ahead to the Knicks and Boston, obviously, as John said earlier, the Celtics have really had the Knicks number this year. They're probably a better team. They're favored by eight and a half points in game one. But whenever these two cities get together, it's going to be fun.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah.

[Katie K]

I don't want to hear it from Lemire right now. And I say that as somebody who has tried to emotionally disassociate from the Knicks, as someone who grew up a Knicks fan, Willie, as I know you are, the legend of Jalen Brunson is a real one. And I always say when I come on this show that the thing about New York sports is that it tests you by shining the brightest possible spotlight, putting the most pressure on you, and daring you not to melt. And so Jalen Brunson has established himself as not merely one of the most clutch players in the league, but clearly one of the most clutch players in NBA recent history. And each of these games, each of these games has been close. You know, I am somebody who came into this series saying the Pistons being tough, being physical, clearly almost coming back to win this, they are not something to be trifled with. And so Jalen Brunson hitting that shot in that way is specifically a mythology ceiling kind of an act. And into the second round goes a team that people were preemptively disappointed by only the electricity.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Is it just me? I mean, you know, Nick's had a big win, but I'm just, I'm just reading Pablo's body like he's, he's nervous. It's kind of like, you know, from, from the fire into the frying pan. You, you seem a little shaken.

[Katie K]

We don't need to get to Lemire and his hands.

[Willie Geist]

We don't need to do that.

[Katie K]

Give us, give the city.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Hey. Well, Willie, does, does he really have that much of a reason to be that scared of the Celtics? Because right now seems to be very scared of the Celtics.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Well, frankly, the Celtics completely handled the Knicks this year. The games weren't even that close. But the playoffs are different. We'll see.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Different.

[Jonathan Lemire]

They're the, they're the more talented team, I'll say that. And they're a better rested team. But when you watch what Brunson is able to do, who knows in the playoffs, I mean, I will say, Pablo, I totally agree with you, you on the Pistons. They were so much better and tougher than I knew. I didn't follow them that closely this year. They obviously had an incredible turnaround, but big credit to them. A lot of young guys. They're going to be good for a long time. But yes, to answer your question, Joe, we do have reasons to be nervous looking ahead, but right now we celebrate the legend of Jalen Brunson.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You know, you know, that look on Lemire's face is not a look I see when we're talking about Red Sox baseball. He looks more like Pablo when he's talking about the upcoming next Celtics series. But there is a self satisfied smugness to Lemire's face right now. He knows it's going to be a 4, 0 sweep. Lemire, tell us why the Celtics are destined for the NBA championship.

[Pablo Torre]

Well, we'll see if Jalen Brunson gets away with those push offs next round like he did there. I actually think it's going to be a tighter series than people expect. Look, Celtics rightly, rightly favored. They've got a lot of defenders they can throw at Brunson. The Knicks have really moved away from any other part of their offense. Like where did Cat, where'd Cat go last night? Celtics are deep. They're home, well rested. They've been through these wars before. Yeah, you know it is. And they've, they've had time. They've had a couple nagging injuries. They've had time to, for those to heal. Yeah, I think Celtics are, let's say, rightly favored in this round.

[Katie K]

Cat. You saying that makes me feel like you're a cat that ate the bird right now. It's like, you know, I don't know what's going to happen here. Meanwhile, feathers are just like sputtering out.

[Mika Brzezinski]

It's.

[Katie K]

Look, Joe, the Knicks are, I, I've made this comparison before about the Mets and I will extend it to the Knicks as a compliment. There is a bit of a wooden roller coaster vibe. Feels like it's going to fall apart, Right.

[Mika Brzezinski]

But yet they persist.

[Katie K]

Yes, they persist. I just want people to know that when it comes to how this season for the Knicks ended last year, right, they got eliminated before the conference finals. There was Jalen Brunson and Josh Hart on the street, 8th Avenue, shaking people's hands as if they had won something, won a title. And so when it comes to the Celtics, the electricity and the nervousness is the knowledge that you're not gonna get anyone's hands to shake if this series does not go well. There's still action, actual real pressure here because now this team has to prove that they're better than they were last year, that it wasn't just a fluke.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, Willie, let's go from the NBA championship, the hunt for the NBA championship, to the the pages of People magazine and talk about Bill Belichick.

[Katie K]

Now my hands are rubbing.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Wow.

[Jonathan Lemire]

You know, we usually wear, we don't dabble in the salacious side of sports. But now some friends and even members of the family of Bill Belichick say they're a little worried about the 73 year old football coach, the legend, over his relationship with his 24 year old girlfriend, Jordan Hudson follows increased attention on the couple after her interjection and we're told, multiple interjections. The CBS only included one of them in the edited interview during Belichick's recent sit down with CBS News.

[Pablo Torre]

How did you guys meet?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Not talking about this?

[Jonathan Lemire]

No. Belichick defended Hudson against critics who say she was attempting to control the conversation, arguing Hudson was simply doing her job to ensure the interview stayed on track. Her job, I guess. Belichick's own daughter in law disagreed with that assessment on social media, writing, quote, publicists act in a professional manner and don't storm offset delaying an interview. Wow, it's his daughter in law. Meanwhile, NBA hall of Famer broadcaster Charles Barkley weighed in on the situation, saying he is starting to be concerned about his longtime friend, Bill Belichick. Pablo, your thoughts?

[Katie K]

There is nobody in sports and Possibly human civilization that is acting more unlike his previous self.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yes.

[Katie K]

Than Bill Belichick. And so when it comes to. To what's happening, I'll just tell you that I've been tracking this story and this fisherman and that mermaid and also this smiling, happy couple for months now.

[Mika Brzezinski]

By the way, that was Lemire's Christmas card last year. He was the mermaid. But go ahead.

[Katie K]

It's a remarkable thing. And look, on some level, I just want to cut to the chase here. Bill Belichick is not the first older man to fall for a younger woman. Right. I am not here to yuck anyone's yum. As I often say to you, Joe, that's not what I'm doing.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I don't think that's a concern, though. But I think the concern, if you look at Charles Barkley and other people that are expressing concern, they're concerned that Belichick may not be with it.

[Katie K]

Well, this is where it comes to be a valid question. Because he's acting so unlike himself and because she is acting not merely as his partner, but his business partner and in fact his agent, representative, manager, CEO of his company.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Person who wrote an email somewhere. Every email goes through her.

[Katie K]

Yes, there were foia.

[Pablo Torre]

She said every UNC football practice.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yes.

[Katie K]

And so what I'm hearing is that UNC Carolina is very concerned about the way in which she has been the voice and face. And also when it comes to how she's been running his life, she's the one in control. I've talked to people now, I've been reporting on this story for my show for months now. At every stop he's made because he's also now Mr. Media Guy. @ every stop she has been omnipresent and making the calls. And so when it comes to what is happening here, why is he so unlike himself? Why is his daughter in law and old friends and certainly people who used to play for him that I've talked to, they're saying, what's even more astounding than the mere fact that, wow, he's in a relationship with a younger woman is the fact that all this is happening publicly. Publicly.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So you've seen Belichick for decades, been obviously somebody that you've cheered for every Sunday. Do you see something different here? Are you concerned?

[Pablo Torre]

To Pablo's original point, Bill Belichick is such a disciplinarian and so in control. Everything about him is, I'm in control of every piece of my life and every minutia of a football team. That's what made him special. That's eventually why some guys couldn't play for him. That's who Bill Belichick was. And to see him cede such control over wide swaths of his life as he does promote a book, which also seems so unlike him doing all the media stuff, as you mentioned. So unlike him. Yeah, there's a lot of talk back in New England. People are just like, who is this guy? And some if he says he's happy, he's happy. But there's some worry being expressed.

[Mika Brzezinski]

All right. Still, Ed, former this is a sharp turn. Former national security adviser under President Biden. Jake, Scott Sullivan is going to be here. We're going to ask him about Bill Belichick. No, actually we'll ask him to weigh in on new staff shakeups in the Trump administration and also get his take on what's going on across the world. Also msnbc. Stephanie Rules can join us with her key takeaways from the town hall event she hosted last night with recently forced out federal workers. MORNING Joe. We'll be right back.

[Pablo Torre]

America's most prominent religious figures were there.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You know, I've sat with President Trump with no cameras around, nobody listening, nobody watching.

[Katie K]

And I'm telling you, this is a.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Man of deep faith, a man of deep conviction. Not just one deep conviction, 34 deep felony convictions.

[Jonathan Lemire]

And they walk right into that one. Walked right into that. Welcome back to Morning Joe, Jonathan Lemire, Caddy K. Pablo Torre still with us and joining the conversation this hour, NBC News senior business analyst, host of the eleventh hour, our good friend Stephanie Rule, also writer at large, the New York Times, Elizabeth Bumiller and member of the New York Times editorial board, Mara Gay. Good morning to you all. So Mika is off this morning because May 2nd, Joe, is a very special day around here. It is Mika birthday and I'm sure she relaxed by waking up at 3am going for a brisk 14 mile run while booking dates for Monday's show.

[Mika Brzezinski]

She did. She spends her birthdays a little differently than you and I do, Willie. So. Yeah. But by the way, Mika's birthday the day before Willie's birthday.

[Jonathan Lemire]

We go back to back on this show. We go back to back.

[Mika Brzezinski]

We do. We do. So we're going to. We've got a lot to cover. We got all of our sports news out of the way last hour. So. So Mika will be if Mika is just waking up now and watching. Sweetie, we've been doing new Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Happy birthday.

[Katie K]

Stop talking, Caddy.

[Mika Brzezinski]

We're going to start off by talking about the trade war. But, but first, let's talk about what Washington has been talking about for the past 24 hours, and that is the President, President getting rid of his National Security adviser, Mike Waltz, moving him over to the UN which his Vice President, J.D. vance suggests just might be seen as a promotion.

[David Ignatius]

Yeah. Tricky to see how moving to New York and out of the realm of the Oval Office is really a promotion. Almost as hard as to see that this is a reason because he wants to spend more time with his family. This is a demotion. And I guess he wasn't thrown out totally because we know that the President regretted getting rid of Michael Flynn as early as he did in his first term in office under media pressure. And so he kind of can move him aside, Senate confirmation hearings notwithstanding. Let's see whether he actually has to get through those. First of all. And it distracts from the fact that he's been moved because he can announce that Marco Rubio, who has done a most stunning job in re. Ingratiating himself into Donald Trump's inner circle with weekend trips down to Mar A La, the kind of flattery that even Ann Coulter is a little embarrassed about in those Kim Jong Il style cabinet meetings. So it was a kind of neat way of getting rid of somebody without really getting rid of them, I guess.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah. And Elizabeth Viewmiller, my gosh, what a transformation from little Marco to Henry Kissinger, now the Secretary of State and the National Security Advisor. Now you put it like that, pretty good move. What does it mean for the Trump administration?

[David Ignatius]

Well, he also, Marco Rubio has two other jobs, as you see right there. He's also the, he's the acting archivist of the National Archives. He's also the acting administrator of usaid.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Which is soon to be the General manager of the Miami Marlins. But go ahead.

[David Ignatius]

Right. It just, I think Marco Rubio has done an excellent job, as you said, ingratiating himself to the President. This is a man who was very tough on Russia, very tough on Iran, and his just melded himself to the President. He has actually, you know, he has gone along with these massive cuts to the State Department budget that just has taken that. And he's also very close to Susie Wiles, the White House Chief of Staff. They know each other from Florida. And I think that he has found a comfortable spot for himself probably for as long as he wants in this administration and obviously and the National Security advisory. I'd like to point out that the longest serving national security adviser for Donald Trump was John Bolton, and that was all of 17 months. So he's had a long lot of.

[Mika Brzezinski]

National security advisors and memories that'll last a lunchtime. Willie. We have this story, a story we didn't get to the first hour because we were so packed with sports news, but really, really surprising. Not surprising, but I guess if you look at the judges, if you look at the location ruling yesterday where you had a Trump appointed federal judge in South Texas actually saying that the president is illegally implementing the Alien and Enemies Act. So that's going to be fascinating. Another story we'll be talking about this hour.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah. And those rulings, by the way, are starting to stack up against the president, as you said, a Trump appointed judge down there in Texas. We're going to get into the details of that story in just one minute. But we do want to talk about the economy because the owners of businesses large and small are voicing their concerns over the potential impact President Trump's tariffs could have and likely will have on consumers. NBC News senior business correspondent Christine Romans has more.

[Mika Brzezinski]

With dire warnings over President Trump's tariffs, the U.S. chamber of Commerce practically begging the White House for tariff relief for small businesses, telling the administration even if it only takes weeks or months to reach agreements, many small businesses will suffer irreparable harm.

[David Ignatius]

These tariffs are just adding uncertainty and.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Complexity at a time when these small.

[David Ignatius]

Businesses just don't have the cash flow to cover it.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The chamber's CEO says she's speaking up for Main street companies that don't have the lobbyists and lawyers like big public names. Businesses like Bonnie Bray Flowers in Denver.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Got our roses from Ecuador.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Facing Mother's Day and graduation with new costs they never anticipated everything that is imported from another country, you know, adding anywhere from 10 to 20% on every.

[David Ignatius]

One of our invoices.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Big companies, too, with big tariff price tags. GM warning investors of current tariff exposure of 4 to 5 billion dollars. Hershey says tariffs will cost it up to 20 million dollars this quarter. Stanley Blackendecker says it's already raised prices because of tariffs and will raise again next month. Consumers, meanwhile, growing more cautious. Sales at McDonald's in the US fell 3.6%, the biggest drop since the pandemic. Airlines also seeing passengers pull back. Southwest CEO Bob Jordan.

[Willie Geist]

The demand is way down now. A lot of that is, I think the consumer reaction to the tariffs.

[Mika Brzezinski]

The administration's message, stay calm. We didn't get here overnight. We're not going to fix this overnight. But I do think uncertainty will go away. Markets closed higher for the day. And after the bell on an Earnings call. Apple CEO Tim Cook publicly addressed the trade war. Assuming the current global tariff rates, policies and applications do not change for the.

[David Ignatius]

Balance of the quarter and no new.

[Willie Geist]

Tariffs are added, we estimate the impact.

[David Ignatius]

To add $900 million to our costs.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Christine Roman's reporting there. So, Stephanie, we get a jobs report out just over, just under 90 minutes from now. We had that, the growth report that came out that showed a slowing economy a couple of days ago. The numbers are stacking up, the prices are rising and we're not even into the worst of it. Forecasters expect the real inflation to kick in the next couple of quarters and perhaps into the holiday season. So my question for you is somebody probably who I know has covered Secretary Besson, probably knows him a little bit, does he believe what he just said there and what he continues to say, which is that these tariffs are a good idea and, and that if we can accept this short term pain, that golden age the President has promised is just on the other side of it.

[Mika Brzezinski]

From the sources that I speak to, who are Scott Bessen's former colleagues, competitors, peers. No, not one word of it. And I think that's the hardest thing. We all know it's difficult to be on tv, but the reason he might appear awkward on television is because he knows he's not telling the truth. And you know, even when he talks about, you know, we're making this shift because he just said earlier this week, we're not going back to the jobs of the past, we're bringing back industrial jobs of the future. Really, if that were the case, then wouldn't we see exemptions for apparel companies? Because the jobs of the future are not bringing back sweatshops, clothing manufacturers. We are a manufacturing hub. We're the second largest manufacturer in the world. What we have figured out over time is how to optimize our manufacturing. Now, we certainly have some unfair trade agreements. If we wanted to get together with our allies, we could do so. But, but what we're doing with China, mano a mano, is devastating for businesses. And when you talk about the unemployment number, we don't know what it's going to be yet. But the worst is yet to come when you've got Apple, one of the most profitable countries in the world, that got one of the first exemptions from the President, and of course Tim Cook, who made his own million dollar donation to the President. When they're telling you they're going to take a $900 million hit, what do you think it's going to do for the toy store in your downtown. You know, Scott Bessant, of course, course told somebody connected to this show during the transition that the tariff doc just opening negotiations. And he believed it. I think you could say that of a lot of people on Wall Street. But Mara, let's talk about how these tariffs are going to be impacting everybody from Tim Cook to Elon Musk, who has expressed real concerns, frantic private concerns to people close to him to toy store owners. And it's so interesting that Seth talked about privately run toy store owners. I talked to a friend yesterday in New York who has young children who said he got a call and the toy store owner said we need to know what toys would you be willing to pay 20 to 25% more far because those are the only toys we're going to be able to afford to order. Which is again just extraordinary that that's where we are in 2025. So much for, you know, free enterprise.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, free enterprise, it's also just such a blunt instrument. I mean there are ways to use tariffs along with other tool sets to reshape the economy if that's what we were talking about doing. But this is a, a case where Donald Trump is using a blunt instrument and saying, well, I'll damage everything first and see what happens later. I mean the other part that's very frustrating to me and I don't know that we're talking enough about this. But it's not going to hit everybody equally. I mean there are companies like McDonald's, they can kind of handle and weather a 3.6%.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, we just saw McDonald's, we saw Southwest Airlines, we saw Apple, we see Tesla. They're going to be able to weather it. Small business owners, family business owners, family run restaurant. There are a lot of people, you know, but also consumer, the hardware store on Main street usa, they're all going to be absolutely hammered.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right? I mean small businesses, I know because my father was a small business owner, you're not dealing with enormous cash flow. And that's what's so difficult about this. This is going to hit small businesses first, which by the way provide many wonderful jobs in American society. Some of the best jobs I would argue. And on top of that, the consumer is going to is being hit. So we have Americans who you know, by the way, if you are just an average American, you're not wealthy, you're actually spending more and more percentage, a much higher percentage of your income on these tariffs than the wealthy are. So this is actually, you know, it's a tax that's hitting the poorer people harder, working people harder, the middle class harder. And it's easier for the wealthier to pay more. It's easier for big corporations to pay more. And all the while, I'm not hearing a whole lot about new manufacturing jobs becoming available in the heartland. So, you know, what is this about? It really doesn't feel like it was well thought through at all. And I think that the reaction from Wall street is only adding to the uncertainty because it appears that just like the Republicans in 2016, they thought they could control the man in the White House.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

And that was a fool's errand. And so what now? What is their next move and who's talking to the president?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Right. And the problem, the problem is, Katty, and we've talked about it for some time, this is something that President Trump believes strongly in, that you have to put up these tariffs that will help get manufacturing jobs back to the United States. We heard Elon Musk before the election saying Americans were going to have to go through a tough period possibly to get to where they needed to go. Donald Trump said the same thing he did a couple of days ago as well. But again, the rub here is that, that we've had globalization since 1979, since we normalized trade with China. And it's going to take a very long time to unwind 45 years of globalization and the wreckage. I just, I don't know many economists that don't believe that the wreckage will, will just be, again, irreversible. Especially, especially as the chamber saying, there are a lot of these small business owners who operate month to month. Maybe they have a two or three month rainy day fund, but that's it. And you're going to have a lot of family businesses that have been passed down, you know, generation to generation that are going to go out of business in the next three to six months if we don't see some real negotiations fast. How many discounts does USA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi vehicle discount, safe driver discount, new vehicle discount, storage discount.

[Joe Scarborough]

How many discounts will you stack up?

[Mika Brzezinski]

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