Morning Joe 5/30/25

Summary

Morning Joe Podcast Summary – May 30, 2025

Hosts: Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski
Co-Hosts: Willie Geist, Jonathan Lemire, Jim Vande Hei
Special Guest: Pablo Torre

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1. Elon Musk’s Departure from Washington and Critique of Republican Spending

Timestamp: 01:21 – 03:14

Joe Scarborough opens the episode by discussing Elon Musk's rapid ascent and subsequent exit as a Washington power player. Scarborough emphasizes Musk's unprecedented influence as an unelected official and laments his swift loss of power within three months.

Joe Scarborough [01:21]: "You got to say, you've never had anybody that is an unelected official who's amassed so much power so quickly in the history of Washington D.C. and then he lost it all three months later. Really stunning."

The conversation shifts to the Republican-led $37 trillion deficit and the impending $20 trillion addition if the current spending bill passes. Scarborough criticizes Speaker Mike Johnson and the Republican stance on the Congressional Budget Office (CBO).

Joe Scarborough [02:45]: "Republican Speaker Mike Johnson... attacking the Congressional Budget Office. Miki, you know what else is shameless? What Pablo Torre is going to show everybody on our show."

2. Republican's Economically Burdensome Spending Bill

Timestamp: 03:14 – 25:22

Scarborough delves deeper into the implications of the Republican spending bill, highlighting the unsustainable increase in national debt. He introduces Jim Vande Hei, co-founder and CEO of Axios, to discuss the fusion between Silicon Valley and Washington D.C., and its economic ramifications.

Joe Scarborough [06:10]: "We balance the budget four years in a row in the 1990s and it's just skyrocketed since then."

Vande Hei expands on the long-term economic threats posed by the bill, emphasizing that servicing the debt now consumes more resources than national defense, education, and other critical areas.

Jim Vande Hei [07:32]: "If this bill passes, our debt will go up an additional $20 trillion over the next decade. That's simply unsustainable."

Scarborough reiterates the gravity of the situation, stressing the inevitability of economic crippling if the bill advances.

Joe Scarborough [24:27]: "Government needs to move towards a balanced budget, not toward $20 trillion more in debt."

3. Impact of Artificial Intelligence on the Economy and Workforce

Timestamp: 07:32 – 09:11

The discussion transitions to the accelerating impact of Artificial Intelligence (AI) on both blue and white-collar jobs. Scarborough and Vande Hei express concerns about AI displacing workers and the lack of governmental attention to this pressing issue.

Jim Vande Hei [07:32]: "AI is going to reorder society over the next decade."

Scarborough shares anecdotes about the scarcity of entry-level positions in certain fields due to AI advancements, underscoring the immediate and long-term challenges.

Joe Scarborough [07:59]: "We're seeing it happening right now."

4. Pablo Torre and the Belichick Ring Camera Scandal

Timestamp: 12:12 – 34:18

Pablo Torre takes center stage with his investigative reporting on a leaked ring camera video featuring New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick. Torre details his methodology, including tracking the location to an Airbnb in Winthrop, Massachusetts.

Speaker Mike Johnson [31:45]: "I am the Robert Caro of Bill Belichick at this point."

Scarborough and host Jonathan Lemire engage in a light-hearted discussion about the scandal, highlighting the lengths Torre went to uncover the truth.

Joe Scarborough [33:34]: "Journalistically speaking, I am quite professional. But this is the ring cam."

5. Harvard vs. Trump Administration Legal Battle Over International Students

Timestamp: 34:40 – 47:53

The podcast shifts focus to the ongoing legal conflict between Harvard University and the Trump administration regarding the enrollment of international students. Mika Brzezinski provides an overview of the courtroom proceedings and Judge Alison Burrows' temporary victory in extending the block on the administration's efforts to revoke Harvard's ability to admit foreign students.

Mika Brzezinski [35:32]: "Judge Alison Burrows... extend that hold."

Eugene Robinson and Josh Gerstein from Politico offer insights into the complexities of the case, including Harvard's substantial endowment and the administration's fluctuating stance on negotiations.

Eugene Robinson [40:01]: "They actually kind of prepared for this sort of thing. I think they issued something like $700 million in bonds shortly before all this started."

The hosts discuss the broader implications for American universities and the potential long-term effects on Harvard's reputation and financial standing.

6. 13-Year-Old National Spelling Bee Champion

Timestamp: 25:54 – 31:29

In a lighter segment, the podcast celebrates Faison Zaki, a 13-year-old from Texas who won the Scripps National Spelling Bee by correctly spelling "eclairsment" in the final round.

Jonathan Lemire [30:09]: "And by the way, we have a nice tie-in here... P L O T O R R E. So tell us about that Belichick ring cam thing you did."

Scarborough and co-hosts commend Zaki's perseverance, noting his previous near-win and potential future in academic competitions like the Math Olympiad.

Joe Scarborough [31:19]: "If at first you don't succeed, try and try again."

7. Fusion of Silicon Valley and Washington D.C.

Timestamp: 53:18 – 55:00

Jim Vande Hei underscores the merging of Silicon Valley’s technological prowess with Washington D.C.’s political influence, a phenomenon that he argues will reshape the U.S. economy. This fusion is characterized by tech companies increasingly relying on federal support for energy, chips, and AI development, forming a symbiotic relationship that could dictate future economic policies and technological advancements.

Jim Vande Hei [53:18]: "The fusion of Silicon Valley and MAGA-dominated Washington D.C. gives both sides considerable power."

He warns of the potential global implications, including the distribution of advanced technologies to Middle Eastern allies and the strategic advantages this alliance provides against competitors like China.

8. Additional Highlights

• Wildfires in Canada: Parts of Manitoba and Saskatchewan are under a state of emergency due to uncontrolled wildfires, with smoke affecting America’s Midwest.

• Tesla’s Robo-Taxi Service: Tesla is set to launch its driverless robo-taxi fleet in Austin, Texas by June 12th, with plans to expand to 1,000 vehicles later in the year.

• New Dream Job for Young Men: The Wall Street Journal reports a cultural shift with more young men embracing the role of "stay-at-home son," reflecting economic and social changes.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Joe Scarborough [01:21]: "You got to say, you've never had anybody that is an unelected official who's amassed so much power so quickly in the history of Washington D.C. and then he lost it all three months later."

• Jim Vande Hei [07:32]: "AI is going to reorder society over the next decade."

• Speaker Mike Johnson [31:45]: "I am the Robert Caro of Bill Belichick at this point."

• Jim Vande Hei [53:18]: "The fusion of Silicon Valley and MAGA-dominated Washington D.C. gives both sides considerable power."

• Joe Scarborough [31:19]: "If at first you don't succeed, try and try again."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions from the Morning Joe podcast episode aired on May 30, 2025, offering insights into political maneuvers, economic policies, technological advancements, and notable cultural moments.

Transcript

[Mika Brzezinski]

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're.

[Joe Scarborough]

Not sure where to start.

[Mika Brzezinski]

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[Joe Scarborough]

Clunking sound from your dryer is.

[Mika Brzezinski]

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[Pablo Torre]

I've never felt like this before. It's like you just get me. I feel like my true self with you. Does that sound sound crazy? And it doesn't hurt that you're gorgeous. Okay, that's it. I'm taking you home with me. I mean, you can't find shoes this good just anywhere. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at your DSW store or dsw dot com.

[Joe Scarborough]

Hey, welcome to the Morning Joe podcast, our Friday edition. It's Friday. Makeup.

[Jonathan Lemire]

It is Friday. Thank you. Thank goodness.

[Joe Scarborough]

I'm very sad. I love doing four hours a day. I would like we have a couple hours tomorrow and Sunday that are best ofs for the week. But man, I miss waking up at 2:30 in the morning and talking.

[Jonathan Lemire]

You're gonna get up tomorrow and watch yourself.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, well, no, no, no. You'll be having me going to get coffee. And that's true, you know, carrying your barbells up to the attic.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That's true.

[Joe Scarborough]

But today, let's not talk about tomorrow. Let's talk about today. What we're gonna be talking about today is Elon Musk's farewell and his dizzying rise and fall as Washington power player. I got to say, you've never had anybody that is an unelected official who's amassed so much power so quickly in the history of Washington D.C. and then he lost it all three months later. Really stunning. We're going to be talking about Elon. We're also going to be talking about the Republicans. Big, beautiful, bodacious, economically crippling, insane spending bill. We got a $37 trillion debt. As you know, if this bill passes, our debt will go up an additional $20 trillion over the next decade. That's simply unsustainable. I've been talking about this my entire life. Deficits, debt. We balance the budget four years in a row in the 1990s and it's just skyrocketed since then. And we now reached a point, it's a tipping point called Ferguson's Law, where we Actually, we are now spending as a nation more money on interest on our federal debt than we spend on America's national defense. That's a tipping point. We're spending more on national debt than keeping our streets safe. We're spending more on our national debt than law enforcement. We're spending more on our national debt, servicing our national debt, the interest on our credit card, than we're spending on vets, than we're spending on farmers, than we're spending on education. It is shameful, and it is shame, just shameless, that Republican Speaker Mike Johnson, who is shepherding through this legislative nightmare of a bill that he's attacking the Congressional Budget Office. Miki, you know what else is shameless?

[Jonathan Lemire]

What's that?

[Joe Scarborough]

What Pablo Torre is going to show everybody on our show.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Well, that and also what he shows on his podcast. Pablo. Tori.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's what I'm saying.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Okay.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. I mean, Bill Belichick, Pablo, Pablo Torre has used his Harvard education to track down the ring camera that showed what?

[Jonathan Lemire]

It's truly shameful.

[Joe Scarborough]

A shirtless Bill Belichick.

[Jonathan Lemire]

It's shameful.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. It's very, very ugly. We'll have that much more straight ahead on the Morning Joe podcast. Thanks so much for listening. Members of the class of 2025 from down the street, across the country and around the world. Around the world, just as it should be.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That was Harvard University's president alluding to the ongoing battle with the Trump administration during a graduation speech yesterday. We'll tell you what came of yesterday's court hearing on that legal fight. Meanwhile, the President Trump's tariffs are back in effect. For now, we'll look at what could happen next. In that case, it comes as the Trump administration continues to slam judges who rule against the president's agenda. We'll dig into those comments and if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. We'll explain why that saying applies to this year's new spelling bee champion, M.

[Joe Scarborough]

E N T. Because he's on.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That is correct.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yay.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I was just wanting to watch him win. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Friday, May 30th. Happy Friday.

[Joe Scarborough]

Happy Friday. Yeah.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Are you happy if it's Friday?

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, I'm gonna miss not having four more hours tomorrow. I know we do a couple hours.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Tomorrow, but I know who's really, really not happy it's Friday. I know the co host of our fourth hour, Jonathan Lemaire. He doesn't work enough. He's a contributing writer at the Atlantic, covering the White House and national Politics and co founder and CEO of Axios. Jim Vande Hei.

[Joe Scarborough]

Jonathan Lemire, I want you to spell Brzezinski and Vande Hei. Go, go.

[Jim Vande Hei]

I would be out instantly. I was never very good, never very good at the spelling bees. But that you know, and also I will admit I don't know that last word that the champion got correct there at the end.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That was amazing.

[Jim Vande Hei]

Extraordinary stuff. This of it is spelling bee is both joyous and one of the most nerve wracking events of every year.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. Jim Vande Hei. I've gotten such remarkable feedback not from the spelling bee champion but I'm sure we will over the next 24 hours. But on your story on AI and the understanding that again what the IT revolution did, what the information age did to blue collar workers and displacing them and, and causing this sort of post industrial rot of the 70s and 80s to actually accelerate things are going to actually be even more challenging and difficult when you look at AI and what that's going to do to white collar workers. And it's so crazy hearing all of these stupid things that are being talked about in Washington D.C. all these stupid things that politicians waste their time on on social media. When you look at a 36, $37 trillion debt that will explode 20 trillion more dollars over the next decade and cripple really crippled the United States economy. And this looming threat of AI that's not as you said, 10 years away or five years away. We're seeing it happening right now. I just wanted to share this with you Jim. We have a friend whose child is about to graduate a master's degree and they have discovered there are no entry level positions out there in her field. And in large part they did a little research. It's because companies are already preparing for the AI future now for sure.

[Mike Barnicle]

And again heard what you did. A lot of great feedback from the federal government. I had hoped I'd hear from other AI companies saying that we were being alert with that story. A lot of people were calling saying it could actually be a little worse than what you guys outlined. So that wasn't that reassuring. The way I look at artificial intelligence, it's both like it could be a threat for sure and it could be a massive opportunity. What I don't understand is when I walk around this city or you talk to lawmakers, why people aren't obsessed with this. It is going to reorder society over the next decade. And almost any person who's studied it at any level has come to that exact same place. I sometimes joke to Mikey and others that I feel like I'm living in a simulation where like you see so clearly where the world's going over the next five years and yet Washington pays very little attention to it. And I think with this segment we did on your show earlier this week, I think what you're saying, what we're saying is just pay attention, get way more familiar with this technology. If you are about to be a graduate, figure out are you in the right field, if you are in the right field, how would you utilize this technology for it to be a force multiplier of the work that you do? How can you help at 10x2x whatever the number is, your productivity so that you can do really creative, interesting things. And I think if society prepares for it, if the companies prepare for it, it doesn't have to be a massive upheaval. But the reason we wrote the piece and the reason that you shined a bright light on it was we're all concerned that nobody's paying attention to it. CEOs aren't being honest with their workers, the government's not paying ample attention to it and parents are worried, students are worried. I got a lot of emails similar to the one you got.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, well, you know, and you have, by the way, Jim and Mike have a follow up column on the merger of Silicon Valley in Washington. And we can talk about that later behind the curtain, the great fusing. But you know Mika, it seems to me all politicians want to do is talk about the after effects. And we're starting to talk about young men being left behind. We're starting to talk about working class voters being left behind. Well, that's happening because again, the post industrial reality where somebody can't go to college, graduate, get married and they take care of their families and their kids do better than they do. That's from what started to happen 20, 30 years ago. What's happening with AI is going to be even a greater challenge. And yet people in Washington, again, the idiocy of the debates, so idiocy, the distractions that have nothing to do with the greatest challenges that are facing this country. I will say AI is a little more complicated, a lot more complicated. But you look at the budget deficit that we're going to be talking about that today in this so called big beautiful bill and the fact that $20 trillion are added to the debt, $20 trillion over the next decade. This country, it's very simple. This country cannot endure $20 trillion added to $37 trillion. I mean, and so what are they talking about? They're just big, beautiful bill and President Trump is always right and own the lib. Like, where are the conservatives to say we want to support the President, we want to support conservative principles. But there's nothing conservative about adding $20 trillion to the national debt over the next decade. Crippling.

[Jonathan Lemire]

They would not think that is beautiful. Real conservatives. So we were talking about the Fusion or Jim Vande Hei is of Silicon Valley in Washington. We also mark today a separation. Today is Elon Musk's last official day in the White House. To mark the occasion, President Trump says he will hold what he is calling a press conference with the Tesla CEO in the Oval Office this afternoon. He posted about it on Truth Social writing, quote, this will be Elon's last day, but not really because he will always be with us, helping all the way. This comes as Musk has criticized the President's sweeping domestic policy bill, telling CBS News the legislation will add to the national deficit, as you pointed out, Joe, and undermines the work his Doge team is doing. Musk also appeared to distance himself from the White House when he spoke about the challenges he faces in expressing his opinions within the Trump administration.

[Elon Musk]

You know, it's not like I agree with everything the administration does. So it's like there's, I mean, I agree with much of what the administration does, but we have differences of opinion, you know, the things that I don't entirely agree with. But it's difficult for me to bring that up in an interview because then it creates a bone of contention. So then I'm a little stuck in a bind where I'm like, well, I don't want to speak out against the administration, but I don't want to. I also don't want to take responsibility for everything the administration is doing.

[Joe Scarborough]

You know, John Lemire, I, I think you know this. I am a simple country lawyer. Early in 2003, I was on the back of a turnip truck and I fell off of that turn up truck somewhere in Secaucus, bounced, had my knapsack and I made my, made, made my way to, made my way to Secaucus. And so I don't understand the complicated ways of Silicon Valley and Washington D.C. but I do understand that Elon Musk is desperately trying, as subtly as he can, but as clearly as he can, to sort, to separate himself from the work that he did over the past four or five months that savaged his reputation in the business world and has hurt Tesla and You can see it there. Oh, I'm not going to get specific, but yeah, but I don't agree with everything they're doing. Nod, nod, wink, wink.

[Jim Vande Hei]

Yeah. And what's he going to get instead because of that? He's going to get a news conference in the Oval Office where Donald Trump is going to make him grab with both arms a lot of what he did in the administration. That's what we're seeing here a little bit. I mean, now I'm told that Musk and Trump, there is personal fondness there. There has not been the falling out that so many people expected. The two men do get along. But you're right, Elon Musk is going with Doge. First, he has been frustrated with. He couldn't get as much done as he would like. Now, of course, we have plenty of critics who say, well, he went too fast, he broke a lot of things, he did a lot of damage to the federal government. He may have even hurt a lot of American voters with stripping services and certainly laid off a lot of federal workers. But he, in his telling, thought he could do more than what he did. So that's number one. But secondly, though frustrated there, he now sees the aftermath and the impact of what it's done on his businesses. And we've chronicled quite a bit on this show how Tesla has really taken a hit and how Musk, his reputation has really taken a nosedive in a lot of quarters around the country and frankly, planet right now, the way his companies have suffered in Europe and other places. So, yes, he is trying, he's trying to be subtle, but he is trying his best to separate himself. But that's just drawn some ire from the Trump people. Stephen Miller went after him on Twitter this week. Speaker Johnson's been critical and I suspect today we will hear President Trump really try to lash Musk to everything they've been doing in D.C. over the last couple of months.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, you know, Jim, you have Elon saying, and I find it quite humorous, actually, this was a lot harder than I expected. This was like everybody was saying people like you and me that have seen how hard it is to get things done in Washington over our 30 or so years on the Hill and across Washington together, knew it wasn't going to be easy. You know, there's the old expression and also that great book on the AOL Time Warner merger, fools rush in. Well, he rushed in and he found out very quickly it is extraordinarily difficult and is one of his lieutenants said and then got fired for saying it. Hey, you know what? They're not all bad. Some of these people in Washington actually know what they're doing.

[Mike Barnicle]

I mean, the bureaucracy is undefeated for sure. And it defeated Musk in this task. That said, you gotta understand Elon, in that he takes the long view and certainly in the short term, he didn't accomplish what he wanted to. But remember what his companies do and remember his relationship with the President, and remember how much data they were able to suck up when they went into all these different agencies to better understand how the federal government works. And now watch, does he start to sell rockets, satellites, autonomous technology, all of the products that his five or six companies are producing? Does the government end up being a massive purchaser of it because of the expertise that he has, the inside knowledge that he now possesses and the relationship with Trump that I think will endure? And that is when I think about the fusing, I think people aren't paying enough attention to how much Silicon Valley and Washington that were really separate for most of our lifetimes have really fused into one kind of superstructure. And it's very, very co dependent these big companies, it's not just Musk's companies. It's Microsoft, it's Google, it's OpenAI, it's anthropic. All these big companies need the federal government to help them get more energy, more chips, more precious minerals, all the ingredients of creating artificial intelligence. And where the money is going to be made is moving us into space, moving us into satellites, moving us into these new energy categories, creating these massive technologies that could be worth literally trillions of dollars to the people that are building them. And so to me, that is like the thing that when you take the long view, you've got to keep your eye on that prize.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, I mean, and to think that this movement has actually ever been termed as a populist movement when you have Silicon Valley billionaires, when you have monopolists from these Silicon Valley monopolies, again, working with the administration, there's what is populist about everything that's going on here that Jim's talking about the fusion of the richest people in the world with the White House?

[Jonathan Lemire]

And didn't Musk go on many of these trips to Middle east, to other places? So there was a lot of connections being made for contracts not just with the government here?

[Joe Scarborough]

Maybe so, maybe, maybe so.

[Jonathan Lemire]

House Speaker Mike Johnson is responding after, as we said, Elon Musk expressed his disappointment in the sweeping domestic policy bill passed by House Republicans last week. Here's more of what Musk told CBS News, followed by Speaker Johnson's new comments.

[Elon Musk]

So, you know, I was, like, disappointed to see the massive spending bill, frankly, which increases the budget deficit, not just decreases it and undermines the work that the Doge team is doing.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I actually thought that when this big.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Beautiful bill came along, I mean, like.

[Joe Scarborough]

Everything he's done on Doge gets wiped out in the first year.

[Elon Musk]

I think a bull can be big or it can be beautiful, but I don't know if it could be both.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

My personal opinion, I sent my good friend Elon a long text message last night explaining that it can be both big and beautiful. Okay, so what I wanted to make sure that he understands is that the projection that he's referring to and others is from the cbo, the Congressional Budget Office. They are historically totally unreliable. It's run by Democrats. 84% of the number crunchers over there are donors to big Democrats. They don't have our best interests in mind and they've always been off.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay, let me just say this. Mike Johnson has been there while the deficit has exploded at record rates. These Republicans. JONATHAN LEMIRE and I'll bring Mike and I'll bring Jim in as well, because Jim was around when he saw us fight day in and day out. And it was ugly, but he saw us fight day in and day out. We balanced the budget four years in a row. And let me tell you, as Lisa Simpson once said of Bart, praying before an exam, prayer is the last refuge of the truly desperate. I disagree with that, of course, but attacking the CBO is always the last refuge of the big spending Republicans, they all do it because they don't like facing the truth. And the truth is that Under Republicans from 2017 to 2021, the budgets were bigger than they had ever been, the deficits bigger than they had ever been, the debt bigger than they'd ever been. And here we're not talking about rounding errors. Jonathan Lemire. We are talking about $20 trillion that these Republicans are going to vote on to add to the federal debt. 20 trillion. We can't afford it. There's nothing ideological about this. There's nothing ideological about those numbers. There's nothing ideological about not balancing the budget. I know, I was there. We did it four years in a row, the only time that's happened in the past century, and they're adding $20 trillion to the debt with this bill. JOHN LEMIRE and he's blaming the Congressional Budget Office. I mean, that's not even shooting the messenger. That's even worse. Than that he can't, he can't believe that. He knows that this bill cripples America's economy over the next decade.

[Jim Vande Hei]

There are few things more true than the observation that Republicans only care about deficits and debts when they're out of power. And we are seeing it here. We saw it in the first Trump term. We're seeing it again now. This absolute explosion in spending. And in this bill, a priority on, you know, tax cuts for the wealthy, over taking steps that would even make a dent into these things that have worried you, I know, Joe, for so long. And it is disingenuous. And you're right. The cbo, a nonpartisan organization. And do Republicans and Democrats alike grumble at it at times? Of course. But some of. But Jim Vandehy, the bad faith attacks here from Speaker Johnson have taken this to sort of a new level to try to write these off as deep state bureaucrats as opposed to people who are simply doing the job and people who are simply focusing on the math when he doesn't want to.

[Mike Barnicle]

Yeah, I mean, the viewers should know you're being duped. You've been duped by both parties for 20 years. Everyone comes in and says they care about deficits, they care about the financial stability of the country, and then they spend money and they spend a hell of a lot more than they say that they're going to spend. We're talking about so much debt now. And why it should matter to you at home is, listen, when we have huge amounts of debt, you end up spending more on the interest on that debt than you do on our national defense. That means less money for education, health care programs for the poor, safer neighborhoods. And at some point, you become so unstable as a capitalistic democracy that the bond markets and other people start to see us as a riskier asset, which is what you see kind of happening in the atmosphere right now. At some point, we're going to pay the piper.

[Eugene Robinson]

Right.

[Mike Barnicle]

But so far, Democrats, Republicans, all they do is spend money because they think it makes you feel better and like them more. They don't want to take us away. That's one of the reasons. You know, I would fault Elon's approach, but the spirit of trying to reduce the size of the federal government like we do, need that mentality. I don't think you do it haphazardly. I don't think you do it cruelly. But someone has to come in and get the place in order. And as Joe said, it's not since Clinton and that Republican Congress back in the 90s that people took this seriously. And it shows that it could be done right. It shows that it is possible that you can run a flourishing economy, a really powerful country, a massive national defense system, and still spend the amount of money that we're taking in, which is, by the way, what everyone expects all of us to do at home.

[Joe Scarborough]

And you know, for people that say it can't be done, I know it's horrible. I know the numbers are terrible right now. It may take a decade to get it done right. But government needs to move towards a balanced budget, not toward $20 trillion more in debt. And I will say, when I first was running, everybody mocked and ridiculed those of us who said we could balance the budget. They said it was the unbalanceable budget. I could show you clippings that said it was impossible to do. We did it. We did it four years in a row. And then guess what? Guess what? Republicans got back into the White House in 2001 and suddenly Republicans stopped caring about the deficits. Only time Republicans care about the deficits or when Democrats are in the office in the White House, that's got to change or we're in big trouble.

[Jonathan Lemire]

All right. Still ahead on MORNING show, a judge hands Harvard University a temporary win as the Trump administration tries to revoke the school's ability to enroll international students. We'll bring in a reporter who was in the courtroom for yesterday's hearing. And as we mentioned at the top of the show, a 13 year old who was runner up during last year's Scripps National Spelling Bee takes home the top prize. This time around, we'll show you his winning final word.

[Joe Scarborough]

Was it Zbigniew Brzezinski?

[Jonathan Lemire]

It was not Zbigniew Brzezinski, but I wish you luck on spelling that. Also ahead, there's apparently a new dream job for young men and it's not actor, pro athlete or musician. We'll tell you what it is. And a quick reminder that the Morning Joe podcast is available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back in 90 seconds.

[Joe Scarborough]

Introducing the new 2025 Ford Maverick truck with in bed power up to £4,000 of towing capability and elevated off roading capability. The new 2025 Ford Maverick truck with a standard hybrid engine and available all wheel drive Ford make it with Maverick Max towing on all wheel drive models with available Max trailer tow package excludes Maverick, Lobo and Tremor models when properly equipped. Max towing varies based on cargo vehicle configuration, accessories and number of passengers. Always consult the owner's manual before off roading. Know your terrain and trail difficulty and use appropriate safety gear.

[Jim Vande Hei]

This season, let your shoes do the talking. Designer Shoe Warehouse is packed with fresh styles that speak to your whole vibe.

[Joe Scarborough]

Without saying a word. From cool sneakers that look good with everything to easy sandals you'll want to wear on repeat, DSW has you covered.

[Jim Vande Hei]

Find a shoe for every heel from the brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike.

[Joe Scarborough]

Adidas, New Balance and more.

[Jim Vande Hei]

Head to your DSW store or visit dsw.com today.

[Alicia Menendez]

Introducing the weeknight on MSNBC, join hosts Alicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townsend for a spirited conversation challenging each other and our leaders about the biggest issues of the day.

[Jonathan Lemire]

It's about knowing what you are for.

[Joe Scarborough]

Who you are for.

[Mika Brzezinski]

That's what politics is about.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's engagement.

[Jonathan Lemire]

We are going to dive deeper into.

[Joe Scarborough]

The legal side of today's breaking news.

[Alicia Menendez]

The weeknight Monday through Friday at 7:00pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Welcome back. It is 24 past the hour. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. Parts of Canada are under a state of emergency as dozens of wildfires are burning out of control. Thousands of residents have been evacuated in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, two provinces that border the U.S. as the new York Times reports, the forecast showed no signs of much needed rain, while warm overnight temperatures and expected high winds could accelerate the flames, blowing smoke into America's Midwest. Tesla is reportedly set to begin its robo taxi service in Austin, Texas on June 12th. CEO Elon Musk says his company could roll out a fleet of 10 self driving robo taxis before expanding to 1000 vehicles later this year. The driverless vehicles are required to have cameras and insurance and be able to follow traffic laws. The city of Austin does not currently regulate self driving vehicles. I'd be too scared. The Wall Street Journal reports on the new dream job for young men. It is stay at home son. The paper delves into the lives of unemployed young men who live at home with their parents who are embracing the labels as ironic as an ironic badge of honor. The movement even has a hero. Jeopardy. Champion Brendan Leo is unemployed and lives with his parents. At his request, Jeopardy. Host Ken Jennings introduces him at the beginning of each episode as a recent graduate and stay at home son.

[Joe Scarborough]

And by the way, we have a nice tie in here. We're going to be welcoming to our show in just a few minutes. Pablo Torre, Right, our stay our own stay at home own Stay at Home.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Son and a 13 year old. Pablo.

[Joe Scarborough]

There he is.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Pablo.

[Joe Scarborough]

There he is.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Pablo, you are on this podcast.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

I'm growing a beard, guys. Trying to.

[Joe Scarborough]

Are you real?

[Jonathan Lemire]

I need to talk to you about your last podcast.

[Joe Scarborough]

It was awesome.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yum.

[Joe Scarborough]

The Belichick ring cam. Oh, wow, you are.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot of adult, dare I say adult content in that one.

[Jonathan Lemire]

You know, you went all out on that. That was good. Okay, all in with one more, everybody. A 13 year old boy from Texas is the new champion of the Scripts national spelling bee. After nailing the final word in the 21st round of the final eclairs.

[Mike Barnicle]

He Small E C L a I.

[Jonathan Lemire]

R C I s S e M.

[Joe Scarborough]

E n T ephesimal.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That is correct.

[Joe Scarborough]

Is that like being of having substance of an eclair?

[Jonathan Lemire]

What is eclairisment? It's like a French word.

[Joe Scarborough]

Eclairsment.

[Jonathan Lemire]

What an amazing, amazing accomplishment. Faison Zaki was competing in his fourth appearance of the contest. Fourth. He was runner up last year after losing in a spell off tiebreaker. The seventh grader now says he might tackle a different kind of competition, the Math Olympiad.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, you know, are you, I mean, fourth time trying. And as we say to our stay at home work son, Pablo Torre. Yeah, if. If at first you don't succeed, try and try again.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Maybe get out of the house once in a while. That might be good for you.

[Joe Scarborough]

Let's bring in P L O T O R R E. So tell us about that Belichick ring can thing you did. It was.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Wait a minute. That was crazy.

[Joe Scarborough]

That was crazy.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Yeah, yeah. I am the Robert Caro of Bill Belichick at this point. Point. And I'm not so proud.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's what they say.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

That I don't feel questions from my mom breathing down my neck about, didn't you like get nominated for a Peabody Award and stuff? And now you're doing this. And the answer to that is absolutely, I am. So this, this Internet artifact, guys, this video. Tom Brady had gone on to Netflix during his roast live and he made a joke in which he said, you know, when I get asked, what's your favorite ring? I usually say the next one. Now I say it's that camera that captured a shirtless Bill Belichick walking out of that poor girl's home. And so there's this question of like, what is this as we play it for you?

[Jonathan Lemire]

We don't have to do that.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

I mean, zaftig is a word that comes to mind. I believe that they use to describe such a scene. John finds nothing wrong with this, I think.

[Elon Musk]

Looks good.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Yeah, it looks good. A mysterious porch, shirtless justice.

[Joe Scarborough]

The heroes always let you down, don't they, Lemire? But go ahead, Pablo.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

But look, in the long lineage of the Patriots and camera related scandals, this somehow is a new high and a new low. And so the question was always, what is this? Where is it from? Did NFL teams really think about this when they decided not to hire Bill Belichick when he went for jobs after leaving the Patriots? And so I, I assembled. I mean, when I tell you the lengths that I went to to solve the mystery of what is this video, where is it from? I will tell you that it led me, after consulting with the roster of eight geoguess, to an Airbnb in Winthrop, Massachusetts, to that same porch.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Did you rent it?

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

I rented it.

[Jim Vande Hei]

You left your shirt on.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Thankfully, I did keep my shirt on.

[Joe Scarborough]

Thank God you left your shirt on.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Journalistically speaking, I am quite professional. But this is the ring cam. This is the Airbnb. It was a remarkable thing to stay there. Five stars, by the way. Good water pressure, lovely home overall. But they had rented an Airbnb. Guys. Jordan Hudson, this young girlfriend had rented an Airbnb 20 minutes outside of Boston. And they didn't necessarily know that they were walking into a place that was clearly being security filmed, John. So, you know, okay, thanks for that.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That was.

[Joe Scarborough]

So your mom has to be proud of you, first of all.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Secondly, that was a waste of so much time.

[Joe Scarborough]

If their parents. No, it wasn't. If their parents out there, they're saying, why should we go through all that is required and sacrifice as much as we sacrifice to send our children to Harvard?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah. To get.

[Joe Scarborough]

Pablo just gave you the answer. Harvard graduate Pablo Torre just showed you the things that they can do.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Harvard won a legal victory, at least in a temporary legal victory, in its ongoing and escalating battle with President Trump. In a Massachusetts courtroom yesterday, a federal judge extended her block on the Trump administration's bid to prevent the university from enrolling international students. That comes as the President pushes to cancel all federal funds directed at Harvard. Let's bring in senior legal affairs reporter at Politico, Josh Gerstein. He was inside the courtroom yesterday for the Harvard Trump hearing. Also with us, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and MSNBC political analyst Eugene Robinson. Good to have you both this morning.

[Joe Scarborough]

So, Josh, take us inside the courtroom and tell us what happened and what Harvard could expect down the road.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, Joe, was a fairly brief hearing up in Boston, I would say it lasted only about 20 minutes. It was in front of Judge Alison Burrows, who is an Obama appointee, who has quite a history at this point, of Harvard cases. She handled the Students for Fair Admissions Challenge, the case that eventually brought down affirmative action at the Supreme Court. She ruled in Harvard's favor, it should be said, in that case. And the Supreme Court obviously came out the other way. So she's got a fair amount of familiarity with Harvard. And the question here was basically she had put in a temporary order a week ago when the Trump administration moved to end student, foreign student enrollment at Harvard, both the return of foreign students who are already there and new students who are trying to enroll. She sort of stopped the administration's move in that direction last week. And at the hearing yesterday, she made clear that she was going to extend that hold. What was kind of interesting was this conciliatory move by the administration. You know, this is an administration that doesn't often, at least publicly talk about some kind of compromise. But we did see that. We saw a shift in position from the Trump administration. We saw Trump in the Oval Office, you know, deliver the usual invective, over the top inaccurate statements sometimes about Harvard. But then the other day on Wednesday, he said, I want to make Harvard great again. I'm not sure they're going to be making any hats up with that slogan right away up there in Cambridge. But he said, I don't want to hurt Harvard. And he seemed to say, let's negotiate about the percentage of foreign students they should have on campus. And then the administration put out a piece of paper saying they were going to initiate a 30 day process to try to hash out this issue about the foreign students, which is interesting because last week the Homeland Security Secretary said Harvard's status to, you know, bring in these foreign students was being immediately revoked. Obviously, there's some tension between that and starting a 30 day process of presumably back and forth in negotiations. So there was a bit of a blink here, I think, on Trump's side, even though, of course, you'd never get any admission of that from this administration.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, Gene, it did sound like the President a couple of days ago was in fact willing to negotiate with Harvard. That said, people inside Harvard, according to a lot of reporting, also Michael Smith at the New York Times, that they understand, like they can win in court and still lose the war. Win the battle, lose the war. So it will be interesting to see if these two sides can come together and negotiate something, because Harvard, again, they've got a $50 billion plus endowment. They, they can withstand the outside pressure a little bit longer than most. But still it would be difficult for any university to withstand such ongoing attacks from the White House.

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah, absolutely. They can't withstand it forever, but they can hold out for a while. And one of the problems I hear is that Harvard, you know, if they want to sit down and like talk with the administration, what exactly are they going to be talking about? And what can you believe from any administration negotiator that won't be immediately contradicted or somehow twisted by the President? And how could you believe that anything was settled when he keeps coming up with new reasons to go after Harvard? So they're in a unique position among US Universities because they have all that money. They actually kind of prepared for this sort of thing. I think they issued something like $700 million in bonds shortly before all this started. So they've got a big pot of cash that they can use. But you know, it's not just the foreign students, it's the grants and all the money that's being cancelled. There's just a lot on the table. And I think they need some more clarity before there can be any sort of, any sort of real negotiation.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah.

[Jim Vande Hei]

So Pablo, you, of course you did attend Harvard. Talk to us about what you have seen there the last few days, but also what those international students bring to campus, bring to the intellectual life. We played at the top of the hour. The university president sort of leaned into the idea of students being from around the world. Drew a huge ovation. It's an intrinsic part of that culture.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Yeah, I mean, look, there's a lot to, there's so much to criticize about Harvard if you want, and that's a fair conversation. It also embodies for a lot of people around the world the American dream. I'm a first generation American parents from the Philippines. This was the whole thing about this country. You go and get the best education in the world, you pay through the nose or you get financial aid and it's all worth it. The scene though, and I'm talking to people on campus all of the time. The scene on campus right now is fascinating. Kareem Abdul Jabbar is giving speeches at Class Day. And then a couple miles away is this courtroom where this is happening in which the campus is, you know, it's frankly galvanized. And Harvard, by the way, you know, it's not merely this hotbed of liberalism. As I have told you, John, the most popular class at Harvard is always Introduction to Economics. And for decades, it was taught by Reagan's chief economist, Marty Feldstein, who taught me the principles of economics. The graduates, the international kids.

[Joe Scarborough]

And look what that did to you.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

I mean, it gets. I got radicalized, clearly.

[Jim Vande Hei]

Put you on a portrait.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

But what happens is, what happens is these graduates, demographically, they go into finance, consulting, and now tech. And so when you talk about the soft power, the through line in all of this, guys, is that this is damaging America from a broad perspective, globally and then capitalistically. My freshman roommate was from Kazakhstan. The kid across the hall was from Zimbabwe. These are people who came to this country with the promise that Harvard was the best of an American educational promise. And now all of these kids have to wonder, should we be coming to this country at all?

[Mike Barnicle]

Hey, Josh, it's Vande Hei. I'm curious as you think about this fight with Harvard as part of a broader fight where you basically have the President of the United States against the courts. And you see this with the battle with law firms, you see it with Harvard, you see it with tariffs. On the tariffs, specifically, as you've watched that through the lens of someone who understands how the courts work, is that gonna end up in the Supreme Court? Is that gonna be the ultimate arbitrary of whether or not Trump can enact something he's cared about for 30, 40 years?

[Mika Brzezinski]

Oh, yeah, Jim, I think that will end up at the Supreme Court pretty quickly, within a matter of a few weeks. You have rulings coming up from sort of two different threads. This big one that came out of the Court of International Trade, which gets almost no press coverage under normal situations, and deals with whether duties were charged incorrectly on some particular product. But here, dealing with this sort of momentous issue of the national economy and then some other cases coming up through other courts. Yeah, I think it'll reach the Supreme Court, and it's going to be a fascinating test for the conservatives up there, because they also have sort of two competing theories of the case. One is, as you know, a lot of them are pro presidential power, historically pro executive power, but that tends to be more in the national security, maybe the foreign policy arena. But then on the other side, they tend to be more libertarian and deregulatory on economic issues and actually sometimes against executive power. When it's framed as the power of federal agencies to regulate individuals, they tend to lean towards Congress on that issue. And so it'll be really interesting to see whether those conservative justices view tariffs as primarily an economic issue, which might mean they'll come down against Trump, or do they view them as primarily a national security issue. And I think you should look for the administration to frame the case as one of national security and foreign policy in an effort to win those justices over.

[Joe Scarborough]

Josh, let me ask you this really quickly before we go. It seems to me the Roberts court, and we saw this with the Affordable Care act, when a I think one of the more telling things in the Roberts court where Roberts wrote, don't ask us to do what you can do at the ballot box. We're not going to overturn the Affordable Care Act. You don't like it with ballot box. Here you have the Article 1 branch deferring to the Article 2 branch on tariffs. And it just seems to me if you're looking what the Roberts court has done in the past, they would say don't ask the Article 3 branch to do what the Article 1 branch has deferred to the Article 2 branch. I'm wondering your thoughts about that logic as well.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, you could see the originalists on the court say that, you know, historically this role of setting tariffs has belonged to the Congress. In fact, the lower court rulings that just put a hold that was then taken off on these Trump tariffs. That's what they basically said. They said, you know, some kind of emergency power to implement embargoes against rogue foreign countries is not a license to impose, quote, unquote, reciprocal tariffs around the world. So I think that you could see the Supreme Court come out that way. And another thing that I have to say changes the atmospherics a little bit here with that Supreme Court is this sort of unhinged truth social message we got from President Trump yesterday attacking Leonard Leo, the conservative legal activist. You might say, well, what does that have to do with tariffs? And that's not even an issue that Leo's active on. And that's true. But Leo is somebody who's very close to those justices. And we're already seeing signs, right, that the three Trump appointees are not so firmly in Trump's camp as some would have expected. And to have that kind of unhinged attack, calling Leonard Leo a sleaze bag is the word the president used. I mean, it's almost incomprehensible. The last time I saw Leonard Leo was last fall at the Federalist Society conference. And he was not schmoozing with other wealthy lawyers who were there or other conservative legal activists were there. He was sitting in the lobby of that Hilton hotel that I know you all are very familiar with, chatting with a Catholic priest and a Catholic nun. Okay. So the guy is not a sleazebag. There are many critics, criticisms you can offer of him and obviously someone who's disbursed billions of dollars in conservative money. There are people that will have disagreements and criticisms will say he's anti majoritarian. Those are all things that I think one can debate as reasonable criticism. But to call him a sleazebag is just sort of bizarre, lashing out at someone because you didn't get your way. And I don't think that's going to sit well with his friends on the Supreme Court.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Court now, senior legal affairs reporter at Politico, Josh Gerstein. Thank you very much for your reporting and analysis this morning. And still ahead on MORNING joe, we'll show you some of the rhetoric from Trump officials against judges and the courts. Also ahead, the inks Anand Girardas says Beyonce's Cowboy Carter tour has a strong message for the whole nation. He'll join us to express, explain the singer's quote, reclamation of America. That's ahead on MORNING joe.

[Pablo Torre]

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[Alicia Menendez]

It's conversation, it's perspective. It's the weekend on MSNBC with three new dynamic hosts, Jonathan Capar, Eugene Daniels and Jackie Alemani. And in the evening, it's the weekend prime time with Eamonn Mohadin, Katherine Rampel, Elise Jordan and Antonia Hilton. Join them as they offer analysis on the week's most important events and set the agenda for the week ahead. The weekend at 7am eastern and the weekend primetime at 6pm eastern Saturdays and Sundays on MSNBC. Sir David Frost gave us an intimate look at some of the most compelling personalities of our time.

[Joe Scarborough]

He got people to talk because he inspired trust.

[Alicia Menendez]

MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series David Frost versus On the final episode, the Middle east conflict.

[Joe Scarborough]

Prime Minister, you said that you now and Chairman Arafat are partners. Yasser Arafat told me the other day that he trusts you. Do you trust him?

[Alicia Menendez]

Tomorrow at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC as well.

[Joe Scarborough]

Brunson 3 he is on target shot clock at 3. On the move, slithering his way. Halliburton caught by Robinson 4 1/2 in the first quarter. I like how Towns got up on that quick and low. He has been a first quarter machine tonight. Jalen Brunson.

[Jim Vande Hei]

A scorching hot start from Jalen Brunson helps the New York Knicks keep their NBA title hopes alive in a do or die game five last night of the Eastern Conference finals. So Pablo, Pablo, no real surprise here to me. Anyway, the Knicks won game five. They're down three to one in the series. They come home, crowd was great, they're tough team, prideful team. They didn't want to see the season end there at the Garden. Now game six tomorrow night's a very different animal. It's in Indianapolis. The Pacers have a good home court advantage though the Knicks have gotten one there already this series. But this will be a tall task.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Yeah, I'm looking at the paper on the screen, I'm looking at the papers on our desk and John, I'm like you, I'm a bit of a New York tabloidologist. I just note that like some of these additions here, I'm just saying not.

[Joe Scarborough]

They thought early deadlines was done.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

Maybe they thought this was done. Look, rumors of the Knicks demise have been greatly exaggerated, even though they happen in the group chats. I belong to Karl Anthony Towns and Jalen Brunson. There have only been so many players in a conference final, so have each scored average 20 points. I believe it's these two guys and it's, I believe Shaq and Kobe and I believe like someone from like the 70s Lakers is on there too. So what I'm saying is right now this has the feeling of what is the best thing in sports, which is like an actual regional rivalry between the Pacers and the Knicks. I do think, Gene Robinson, as I bring you in here, I do think that the Pacers are probably the better team. But if you give me a. If you give me a Game seven at the Garden, that is, my Lord, Game seven at the Garden with the NBA Finals on the line is going to be an unprecedented scene, I would say, in certainly the modern history of sports in this area.

[Eugene Robinson]

Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm rooting for. I'm rooting for a Game seven in the Garden that will be huge if it happens. And look, I think that, you know, in this game tomorrow night, it's all on the Pacers. They gotta prove it. They look to be the better team when they're running on all cylinders, running and gunning. They are. They're pretty amazing. And they just run all over the Knicks but they gotta, you know, they gotta finish the deal. They gotta seal the deal and they obviously haven't yet. And with all the pressure on them back in Indianapolis, it's gonna be, you know, fascinating game tomorrow night. Ken Brunson and Cat, you know, basically by themselves, the dynamic duo. Can they stop this Pacers juggernaut? And it should be a good game.

[Joe Scarborough]

Should be a great game. And you know, they're going to be fighting over the next two games to to have really the great honor of going out to Oklahoma City and being absolutely crushed by the Pretty remarkable.

[Mike Barnicle]

How good is pretty pretty.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Jim Vande Hei]

Oh my gosh.

[Speaker Mike Johnson]

They did go on the Daily News, the early edition of John said as the Oklahoma City City Thunder. Probably the best story in basketball this season.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, exactly. So. Hey Jim, speaking of stories again, we've been talking about your story yesterday, but you've got a great one today about the fusing of Silicon Valley and MAGA dominated Washington D.C. what are the implications of that?

[Mike Barnicle]

I think they're massive. I think it's going to be the future of the US Economy. Right. If you think about what I needs, more energy, more chips, more data, more precious minerals, like you're going to have to build an entire industrial policy around that. And there' syou talked yesterday, you made a really important point in passing, which is I think we'll look back at that trip to the Middle east that Trump did as a really seminal moment in the history of Trump's reign because not only did he strike a lot of deals for the country, for himself, but he brought a lot of these tech leaders there and struck deals. You had OpenAI getting a deal, you had Boeing getting a deal, you had all of these tech execs with him trying to get their own deals in the Middle east. Which means that these Middle east countries, some of which have funded terrorism against our own allies against us, now being able to possess key ingredients of this technology. Well, they're friendly with China. Like there's ways to backdoor these technologies. And so what we're trying to get at with this piece is just pay attention to that fusing. Cuz when you takeyou put it right, these billionaire kind of almost like godlike powers of these tech companies now combining with with the Trump White House just gives both sides considerable power. And I think it's going to reorder the economy. And if you just think about where the country's headed, future of space, future of satellites, that's where the action is going to be.

[Jonathan Lemire]

All right. Co founder and CEO OF AXIOS Jim Vande Hei, thank you very much. We'll be talking more about this. And coming up, we're going to take a closer look at Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro's national standing amid growing speculation that he may run for president. David Drucker of the Dispatch will join us with his new reporting. Morning Joe will be right back.