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Morning Joe
Morning Joe 5/5/25
00:51:08
Trump, asked if he has to 'uphold the Constitution,' says, 'I don't know'
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But people are saying that what I've done so far has single handedly helped win people elections, mostly in Canada. I've also signed 147 executive orders. Everything from banning paper straws to defunding PBS. I understand Elmo has now been apprehended by ICE, brought to you by the letter L for El Salvador. He's not coming back. We've got a few new executive orders. And here to help is deputy chief of staff and lord of the shadows, Stephen Milley. Oh, Mr. President, it's an absolute pleasure to be here. Wow, even the nice things you say sound like Kylo Ren. All right, what do we got today, Steven? What you got? All right, sir, this first order would bring back Columbus Day. Oh, it's so important. That's right. We are bringing back Columbus Day back from the ashes. We have to protect Columbus Day for our great Italian American friends like Tony Soprano, Benny Blanco, and Childish Gambina. All right, what's next? All right, sir, this order would reduce the number of interracial couples in TV commercials. It's just too many, right? You see them in the kitchen together making meal from hellofresh. He's wearing loafers. She's got tight braids. You're like, where'd they meet? You know, what do they even talk about? It's insane. Well done, sir. Sir, this order will make it socially acceptable for a man in his 70s to date a 24 year old. That's right. We're calling it the Belichick law. We're gonna make girlfriends young again. Okay, old men can now date far younger women. We like that. It's hot. But in reverse, it's quite disgusting. Right? Very dateline. You know, oh, my God. That was just part of Saturday Night Live's cold open. The real President Trump sat down for a wide ranging interview with Meet the Press, tackling everything from immigration to the economy. We'll have a lot to cover from that conversation. Also ahead, a report from Newark Airport amid a cut in daily flights because of an air traffic controller shortage. Okay, that's a problem. Who flies into Newark? I mean, we all fly, all of us. Right. No one by choice, but everyone is inevitably maybe not to we find ourselves. But now we have an air traffic controller telling Tom Costello who's going to be on later on today, if you know it's good for you, don't fly into Newark. Yikes. One of the busiest airports in America. He's on in one hour. Plus, it appears there is no global maga movement as a second country rejects candidates with views similar to President Trump. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It's Monday, May 5th. Happy Monday, everybody. With us, we have the co host of our fourth hour. How's Lemaire doing today? How you doing? Jonathan Lemaire, He's a contributing writer at the Atlantic covering the White House and national politics. The host of Pablo Torre finds out on Meadowlark Media, MSNBC contributor Pablo Torre and US Special correspondent for BBC News. And the host of the Rest Is Politics podcast, Katie Kay. Also with us, President emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations Richard Hos. He's the author of the weekly newsletter Home and Away, available on Substack. Also with us, MSNBC political analyst Anand Girdardis. He's publisher of the newsletter the Inc. Also available on substack. It's good to have you all on board. Nobody wants to talk about baseball, do they? No, actually, no. All I heard was you going screaming F bombs. Honestly, I was so upset yesterday. I think the Red Sox bullpen has blown what, four, four games in a week? In a week. In a week. And the guy who's supposed to be, you know, Whitlock's supposed to be, you know, middle reliever. He's given up three. It's just, it is, you know, I go to bed every night in like the seventh inning, like, oh, my gosh, it's great. We're going to win. Wake up the next morning, it's like 87 to 4. Yeah, this was a particularly rough week. They've been four blown leads. They had. They lead the league and blown saves. It's not close. There are other stats where expected wins turn into losses. They lead the league there and they've had by far the easiest schedule in baseball to this point, but yet they're only.500 because the bullpen has coughed up so many. And I mean, the only, the only mitigating factor is that all my Yankee fans are just as fine. I'm trying to just jump on you guys for this. All I'm hearing, though, wins turn to losses. Feels like a larger metaphor for something, perhaps something we' talk about. There you go. The AL standings there. All bunched up at the top. All very mediocre. Oh, yeah, Exactly. Proudly. And tonight the, the, the Knicks and the Celts game. Any predictions? Pain, let's hope. As a patriotic movie once said, I predict pain. That sounds like a Knicks, a lifelong Knicks fan. 52 years of rebuilding and we're almost there. But not quite like Newark Airport, we're perpetually almost rebuilt. Yeah, but I mean, at least you have the judge to look forward to. Yeah. It's a tough moment for New York Sports. Yeah. Celtics, Knicks tonight. Celtics home. Rightly favored. I actually do think the Knicks would put up a fight, but I understand the Knicks pessimism is decades. What does put up a fight? Put up a fight. It's like when you drop a dead cat out a window, it bounces and it's like, oh, look at that. Put up a fight. Put up a fight. How patronizing. Thank you, Richard. That is patronizing. All right, let's get to the news. In a wide ranging interview with Meet the Press moderator Kristen Welker, President Trump seemed to try and have it both ways on the state of the economy, wanting credit for the good things and none of the blame for anything else. He was also pressed on if his policies could lead to a recession. Take a look. When does it become the Trump economy? It partially is right now. And I really mean this. I think the good parts of the Trump economy and the bad parts are the Biden economy because he's done a terrible job. He did a terrible job on everything from his auto pen, which I'm sure he knew nothing about, some of the things he was supposedly signing to immigration. You look at what happened with immigration, how bad it was. But, sir, you acknowledge when you announced your tariffs, for example, the stock market dropped. It's been volatile. It has since gone up. Do you take responsibility? Look at that. Yeah. Do you take responsibility when it's ultimately, I take responsibility for everything, but I've only just been here for a little more than three months. When you say they could have $3 instead of $30, are you saying you don't need Americans could see empty store shelves. No, I'm, no, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying they don't need to have $30, they can have three, they don't need to have 250pencils. They can have five. But you're basically saying there could be some supply shortages because of the waste money on a trade deficit with China for things we don't need, for junk that we don't need. Some people on Wall street have expressed concerns that the possibility of a recession is increasing. And I want to know what you think about that. Are you comfortable with the country potentially dipping into a recession for a period of time if you are able to achieve your long term goals? Well, you know, you say, some people on Wall street say, well, I have to tell you something else. Some people on Wall street say that we're going to have the history. Why don't you talk about them? Because some people on Wall street say this is, that's what I'm getting at. That's, Is it okay in the short term to have a recession? Look, yeah, it's, everything's okay. What we are, I said this is a transition period. I think we're going to do fantastically. Are you worried about a recession? No. Okay. No, no. I think we're going to have the greatest economic, I mean, do you, are you worried it could happen? Do you think it could happen? Anything can happen. But I think we're going to have the greatest economy in the history of our country. I think we're going to have the greatest economic boom in history. That was a great summing up of basically his approach, Richard, to politics. Anything good, me, anything bad, Joe Biden or my predecessor. So it is again, a lot going on there. I must say. You sounded like Dr. Brzezinski when he says, you don't need 30 dolls, Mika, you can have two. And also a prom dress. Here's a pat pattern in a sewing machine. Get to it. But that's about where it ends. You don't, you don't need all that junk. But, but I will say it's, we don't know yet where this economy is going. We got numbers out on Friday that once again shows what we've been saying over the past couple of years, which is, you know, this, this economy remained extraordinarily resilient under Joe Biden. The Fed continued to try to slow it down. Higher interest rates and the economy kept growing. We were starting the same thing on Friday. I mean, consumer, consumer confidence has plunged. The markets regained, you know, they're down about 10%. They're back up, you know, down, down now probably around 6%, 7%. But again, it's right now a lot of mixed messages. But most forecasts from Wall street suggest we do have a recession coming. And that's the view of most economists. I think also when you talk to most CEOs, they are worried their supply chains are going to get fundamentally dis. Because of the. Almost the President echoed the uncertainty. Well, maybe this may be that. Well, if maybe this may be that business environment does not encourage investment, doesn't incur, encourage long term planning. Do you buy this, do you sell that if you have a five or ten year investment in order to get your return? Well, right now it's really hard to make it. Well, Those, those, those CEOs are saying very publicly, we're frozen right now. We don't know where this is going. Right. Absolutely. So my guess is where, you know, we're heading towards a recession. I think that's what, you know, you had 0.3% this time, this quarter. We'll know for sure in just over three months when we get the second quarter resulting. The President's point of view is maybe that what matters to him is in the long term. You know, there was that other economist named John Maynard Keynes who couldn't be with us today. Right. Because in long term world that. Exactly. Yeah. So I mean, everything may ultimately work out, out. But again, the odd thing about the show is again, the President inherited a robust, healthy economy. Growth was up, inflation was down, employment was up. And for reasons that are still unclear to me, to say the least, why he decided he needed to administer such a shock with tariffs is one thing, if you've got a sick patient, you're willing to take risks. We had a healthy patient called the American economy and now we've turned the healthy patient into a sick patient. For what. But that's what's unclear. You know, what's so fascinating is when we had J.E. goldberg in the other day, he said, you know, we always, we always talk about how Donald Trump will move anywhere and he doesn't really believe in anything. The one thing Jeffrey Goldberg said while he was in the White House, he said you can see it in his eyes. You can read it like he believes in tariffs. He's believed in tariffs since 1987. He's moving forward with tariffs. So, I mean, so, and I think what is remarkable and what we have not heard other Presidents say is maybe we'll get, go into, maybe we'll go into a recession. Maybe your kids need to get by with less. At Christmas, maybe you need to get by with less. Never heard any president say that ever. Which may also lead to what you've heard from inside the White House, what I've heard from inside the White House and what he said yesterday. He's not running again. He's not running in 2028. So he's willing to play this out and if there's some short term bang, he's fine with it. Yeah, as the immortal Alex Corson joked a moment ago, it's a far cry from a chicken in every pot right here saying, you know, the president saying no, we're not going to give you plenty, we're going to give you less and you'll be happy with it, that you can settle for just having one or two dolls as opposed to 30. But this is certainly an animating principle, one of the few that has been consistent since the 1980s. For Donald Trump, he believes in tariffs and he's surrounded himself with people who either really believe in tariffs, like Peter Navarro, or at the very least are willing to go along with it. P Mildly like a Scott percent. But there are warning signs on the horizon. Some of the data from the ports, particularly, you know, in terms of the gift that the imports coming in really slowed down those prices. They haven't kicked in yet. The higher prices they will. Inflation could be surging back. Recession still feels very much on the horizon, perhaps a near horizon. But at least for now, President Trump is willing to put up with the pain. He said that actually in both yesterday and in the interview with the Atlantic earlier in the week he was pushed. Is there a number the stock market might hit? Because we know the first term he was so reactive, reactionary to the stock market and this time around he said no, I'm going to see this through. So Katty K. He's committed. PAC committed at least for the time being on this. It is something that though I know a lot of Republicans are getting anxious about. We've heard from those in the House, those in the Senate, even Leader Thune saying we're going to let this play out for a while, but at a certain point they feel like they might need to try to push back. Whether that's actually with if some just rhetoric or legislation remains to be seen. I mean the only area where people in the House so far have actually pushed back in any numbers has been around the issue of tariffs. So whether they're going to broaden that to other issues, it seems unlikely. And then it's only been a handful, six or seven people. I don't see any indication yet from the House or the Senate that there's much appetite for vocal objection to anything that, that Donald Trump says. Now look, if you start that, I think the one thing that could change that could be the impact of tariffs. If you start seeing in a week or two, as economists are predicting that shelves will empty, it will test American consumers appetite for sacrifice. Now if you told Swedes that they could only have two doles, not 10 dolls, that might be one thing. But Americans are not famous for exercising restraint and austerity when it comes to, to consumer purchases. So I think that could be something that hurts the President and then the question is going to be if that hurts the president and his approval numbers decline, will they push back on other things? Will they say, you know, push back on due process issues, Will they push back on legal issues as well? I, I don't think we know yet. I think it depends on how hard the economy is hit by these tariffs. Yeah, I mean, and it is, it is absolutely fascinating. They've been very straightforward. The president is very straightforward, saying you may have to get by with less. Yeah, maybe we'll have a recession. We'll see how that plays out. On the campaign, Elon Musk said we're going to have to go through a rough time. There's going to be, I'm sure he didn't realize that he was going to lose 125 to $50 billion personally going through that rough time, but this is something they've all predicted. Scott Bassett said something that suggests that maybe Scott Bassett doesn't have his like, you know, finger on the polls, fingers on the pulse of America when he said cheap consumer goods is not a God given right. Mr. Besson, it may not be Secretary Besson, but the American people think it is. So we're coming to a time where there is going to be a real test if shelves are empty because there'd be more than dolls, right? Well, obviously, yeah, but that was regarding Christmas when people are saying, well, what if the shelves are empty? I don't know. I'm not suggesting that the American people can't be patient. I'm just suggesting that the American people can't be patient when it comes to consumer. I mean, this is again, this is what's fueled our economy for decades now. So it's going to be a fascinating test of will to see what happens if the shelves empty out, if prices go up, if what some people on Wall street are Predicting actually comes to fruition. The doll thing feels instructive because this is the language of toys. All of this feels like a toy to Donald Trump in his cabinet, his Dr. Strangelove esque cabinet of advisors. Market manipulation is what I think about when I hear them talk about, you don't have to worry about this because they will know sooner than the rest of us what's going to happen. And we've seen what happens when they have a little bit of advanced knowledge. There are moves to make, there are ways to profit off of the dip, there are ways to strategize ahead of the actual American people who did not vote for this as much as the tariffs. Absolutely correct. Donald Trump has been saying that. So clearly this thing, the dull's thing, the hey, you might need to scale back. It's just so obviously not, but it's others. But they all said you're going to have to go through rough times. Musk said you're gonna have to go. Didn't he say that on the campaign trail? He did say they're gonna have to go through rough, but they don't. But the people, but the people who know what's coming won't have to in the same way. And that market manipulation, this whole like crypto casino feeling economy is where there's just an unmistakable vibe of corruption, self protection as chaos is going to loom. And that's where Main street certainly feels like an underrepresentation of how vast that damage and that anxiety is going to be. Well, I mean we'll obviously we'll see how, how all of this plays out again. It's, it's a big question. We've been predicting recession now as far as economists for several years the economy has stayed resilient. I think right now it's easier to say these things on Meet the Press than it is when actually inflation starts moving up. And you know, we don't know that we're going to get back to this but there is a lot more news to get to including out of Australia, which has a new Prime Minister. Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, same Prime Minister he was there reelected, will continue to lead his country's government after his left leaning labor party won a decisive victory. Over the weekend. Australia joins Canada in seeing a noticeable swing towards the left in response to President Trump's policies. The Labour Party expanded its majority in the Australian House of Representatives, beating the right wing, national and Liberal parties. Before the election polls, only Shoal Dalbanese had a slim lead. The opposition leader Peter Dutton of the conservative Liberal Party not only lost the chance to run the country, but also his own seat in the Parliament. Dutton is a former police officer who was constantly compared to Donald Trump for his strong stance on immigration and crime. The Wall Street Journal editorial board is writing about this in a new piece entitled the Trump Effect Hits Australia. And it reads in part, so much for the global MAGA movement. For the second time in two weeks, a Western democracy has taken a political turn to the left. The victory in Australia was especially sweeping. The mood of the electorate favored change. But the Liberals never capitalized with an economic agenda with broad appeal. They focused instead on culture war issues that didn't have the same salience as they did last year in the US this is one way in which Mr. Trump's tariff shock and rhetorical attacks on allies are having far more than economic consequences. They are causing Democratic electorate around the world to question America's reliability, which, at least for now, helps politicians who sound like nationalists in those countries. Steve Bannon may imagine a global mega wave based on the model of Viktor Orban. In Hungary, at least in Canada and Australia, the effect has been the opposite. And this again goes back to tariffs included. Well, you're right. And Anand, the. The Conservatives were making a move to actually take over the government in Australia. That got blunted. And again, just like in Canada, the head of the Conservative Party not only lost the right to run the country, but dramatically enough, lost their own seat. So right now, among allies, it certainly does look like the MAGA movement is actually having the opposite effect. It's not transferable. And I've always said, like I said, Reaganism wasn't transferable. Obama ism wasn't transferable. Trumpism isn't transferable. Even in America, you know, Donald Trump's on the ballot, things go better for Republicans. He's not on the ballot, they lose. And we're starting to see that across the world as well. I mean, I think the Trump Bannon fantasy was built on an idea that something fundamental has snapped in human beings, that we've, like, turned this historical corner and people want an ugly, mean spirited, hateful politics as the future. And there was always this other story of like, no, no, no. People are just really desperate and fed up and insecure and they're lashing out and they're doing a dumb thing. But, you know, hydraulics still works. And what we're seeing, including the earlier segments, hydraulics still works. Gravity still works. You know, that Donald Trump that you showed in that clip looked afraid. He looked insecure. We've gone from a promised transformation in January to that was what in corporations is called managing expectations. This is now a managing expectations presidency. And it's reassuring that you have these other moments in elections around the world. People, I still believe are decent. Most people are decent. Most people who vote for bad things are decent. And I think people don't want to be hurt. People want chickens in every pot rather than to be explained why they can eat every three days. And I think, you know, gravity is real. Well, and Richard, what we're finding is certainly Canada and Australia, that was a reaction to what's happening in the United States. But what we've also been finding for the past couple of decades are just a lot of voters who feel betrayed by their government. And that's why, you know, one party in power after another party in power after another party in power loses. And while we look at what's happening in Canada and Australia, as the New York Times wrote yesterday, it's not as clear cut. In Britain, for instance, the Labour Party, which had a massive victory last July, the Labour Party got pounded in local elections. And Nigel Farage, who everybody was ready to sort of laugh off the stage suddenly, in all of these local elections, he had his best night, his party had his best night since Brexit. And again, as the Times said, and as I think most people will go to Caddy next on this, but you have people who are desperate, who are voting, continue to vote against the party in power because economically things just aren't getting better across these Western democracies. Well, you're right. That's the whole energy of populism. But I think what we saw though, in both Canada and Australia is people are unsafe, settled. So they actually voted to stick with what they had for all the flaws, simply because there's fear that things are getting out of hand. They wanted something more settled. Britain's a little bit of an exception. I'll be interested to see what Kadi has to say. But the fact that the so called reform movement, Farage in many ways is almost taking the place of the traditional Tory party. And this might be an earthquake in British politics. And there, I expect people like Steve Bannon may find a little bit more comfort. Let's make one other point, Joe, which we were getting at. What's so interesting about this is a lot of these countries like Canada and Australia, which are two of our closest allies, what they're essentially saying is we have to be prepared for a post American world. We can no longer rely on the United States the United States. We thought we knew. Guess what folks, that United States is no longer and tariffs have basically become the trigger to wake the world up. Our allies have basically said, said we can no longer depend on the United States. We need to become more self sufficient. We need to forge maybe better relationships with the Chinas and others. We're simply on our own. We can't count on Americans to be there for us. This is an earthquake even within their local politics. This is an earthquake in international relations. And we'll ask Katie to hold that thought and take a quick break. Still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to have much more from President Trump's Meet the Press interview, including what he's saying about his embattled Defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth. Plus will turn overseas as health experts warn that food, water and medicine shortages are causing a surge in the number of preventable illnesses and deaths across Gaza. We'll get a live report from Tel Aviv. That's next on Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply. @ Strayer University, we help students like you go from is it possible to anything is possible by offering access to up to 10 no cost gen Ed courses so you can reach your goals affordably and fast. Visit Strayer Edu to learn more. No cost Gen Ed is provided by Strayer University affiliate Sophia. Eligibility rules apply. Connect with us for details. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by Chev and has many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia. Mummy's the word, but we're telling everyone it's BOGO 50% off. Time at Designer Shoe Warehouse just in time for Mother's Day. Buy any pair of shoes, get a second qualifying pair 50% off. Treat mom or yourself to the perfect spring styles from Must own brands and hurry. Unlike a mother's love, this deal won't last forever. So make mom proud and score BOGO 50% off at your DSW store or dsw.com today. Trump Organization is selling hats that say Trump 2028. Yeah. Are you seriously considering a third term, Mr. President, even though it's prohibited by the Constitution, or is this about staying politically viable? I will say this, so many people want me to do it. I have never had requests so strong as that. But it's something that to the best of my knowledge, you're not allowed to do. I don't know if that's constitutional, that they're not allowing you to do it or anything else. But there are many people selling the 2028 hat. But this is not something I'm looking to do. I'm looking to have four great years and turn it over to somebody ideally a great Republican, a great Republican to carry it forward. But I think we're going to have four years and I think four years is plenty of time to do something really spectacular. Has anyone approached you though, with an actual plan, a way to actually start the process? Well, there are ways of doing it and you know the same thing. And if you look at the vice presidential thing and you hear different concepts and different other people say you can have a right in vote, there's lots of different things. With all of that being said, I want to be a great president. I'll be an eight year president. I'll be a two term president. I always thought that was very important to be honest with you. Yeah. So Jonathan, clearing up what we've known all along and you know, again inside the White House they've been saying for from the very beginning, one more term, it's what he's going to do. And you and other people that have followed him on the campaign trail said by the end of the last campaign, with everything that happened, yeah, he wasn't looking to do this again, to run again. He was gassed by his own admission. He told advisors after his final rally like that was it like this is my last campaign. The way Donald Trump talks, he always leaves himself some rhetorical wiggle room. He does. But he was pretty clear there. He talked about there's suddenly a surge in Trump 2020 merchandise. He's like, ah, you know, we can make some money off of that. But he, but people in the White House who are there with him every day say look, he's focused this on these four years. He's not planning beyond that. There are other comments in that interview more concerning where he was not sure. He has said he is not sure. He has to follow the Constitution. But at least in terms of this part of the constitution, two terms, he seems willing to go along with it. Yeah. And we'll get to, we'll get to that in a little bit. Caddy, let's talk about what's happened. We were talking about Canada and Australia. Britain's local elections went a different way. Nigel Farage and the Reform Party party that Steve Bannon and, and Donald Trump, I guess I have those in opposite orders have aligned themselves with actually, and who were considered basically, you know, pushed off the stage after Labour's huge victory last July, now doing very well and as Richard pointed out, not hurting labor as much as hurting the Tories. I mean, the Conservatives in Britain may become an endangered political species. Yeah, I mean, I think that is the story. It's not so much the story of populism and, and pro Trump movement like we saw in Bolsonaro back in 2019. And is that resurgent in the UK I think this is a blow to the established system of two parties that have dominated British politics for a century. And now you have this insurgent in Farage and the reform movement. For voters who tried the Tories were fed up with the Tories and their grip on power for decades in the UK and the sense that the Tories had lost their way. Then they, some of those voters flipped. They tried the Labour Party, but they didn't love the Labour Party. When they elected to Keir Starmer, it was more of a vote against the Tories. Starmer hasn't managed, although he's been successful on the kind of global stage in standing up to Donald Trump, he hasn't managed really to revive the British economy. And so now those voters are thinking, okay, let's, let's try the guy that hasn't had a chance yet. And I think that's a lot of what you saw. You also saw the Liberal Democrats doing well in the uk another smaller party. So I think it is that, it's that fracturing that we've seen across Europe. We've seen it in Germany, Germany, we've seen it in France. And now perhaps we're going to be seeing it in the UK as well. And Farage benefits because he's Farage, right? He's, he's larger than life, he's charismatic, he's fun on the stump. And I think that also helps the reform movement. Turning now to the Middle east, where the humanitarian crisis in Gaza continues to spiral more than two months after Israel stopped allowing aid to enter the territory. Let's bring in NBC News international correspondent Matt Bradley, live in Tel Aviv. Matt, what are you hearing on the ground? Yeah, well, actually, the big news just now overnight was that the Israeli cabinet just approved plans to really take over the entire Gaza Strip and to occupy it indefinitely. There's been no timeline placed on this, but that's the idea. They would be moving on from the strategy that has been practiced so far of taking Plots of land, trying to eradicate Hamas within those, while deciding, displacing the population and then moving on to other parts of the Gaza Strip. Instead, we're going back to a full occupation of the Gaza Strip with plans to move the population to the south, quote, for their own protection. And this was a statement that we got from an Israeli official with knowledge of the matter. This was sent to NBC News. There was also, at the same time, again in overnight debates in the Cabinet, an approval of a plan to distribute humanitarian aid. Now, this aid, which as you mentioned, has not been in the Gaza Strip for the past two months, last Friday marked the two month anniversary since any aid, and we're talking about food, water, electricity, medical products, all of that has been denied to the Gaza Strip, the longest period that outside aid has been denied to the Gaza Strip ever since its existence as a political entity. And now we're seeing what looks like the beginnings, or at least signs of starvation and famine conditions throughout the Gaza Strip. And aid agencies have been complaining, demanding that the Israeli government government lift this blockade. Now, there's been a blockade imposed by the Israelis and the Egyptians for much of the past two decades, but it's been the fiercest that we've seen in just the past two months. Not a single product has been allowed to go in. Organizations like the World Food Program have said they have hundreds of thousands of tons of aid waiting at corridors to enter the Gaza Strip, waiting for the Israelis to change their mind, but they haven't been doing so. So now this decision that just came out, it would allow for, for a two pronged success story. This is what we've been hearing from the Cabinet and from the Prime Minister's office. Both the freedom of the hostages. There's thought to be about 59 who remain. About 24 of them are thought to still be alive. And the eradication of Hamas, that terror organization that started the latest round of fighting back with those Oct. 7 attacks in 2023. Until now, those two goals have long been seen by the Israeli population and everybody, it seems, except for Netanyahu and his top officials, as totally mutually exclusive. But this plan we're hearing from the Israeli Cabinet says that both of these can be achieved and that aid can go in. We're going to see whether or not that's possible, given the massive amount of suffering among a civilian population that numbers, well, more than 2 million in the Gaza Strip. Now, the other big news we saw over the weekend was that strike by the Houthi rebels in Yemen that really was a Near miss. It nearly hit Ben Gurion Airport, which actually closed, closed for several hours. And many flights have been canceled so far. Four people were injured, according to local health authorities. And actually NBC News heard that eight people sustained injuries. Now, this was a rare success for the Houthis, who have been sending missiles against Israel for much of the past several months, ever since the Israelis broke that ceasefire in the Gaza Strip and renewed fighting there. The Houthis took this as a massive victory. The Israelis said they're launching an investigation into why they're really quite sophisticated Air defense system managed not to shoot down this incoming projectile. Guys. NBC's Matt Bradley Live in Tel Aviv. Thank you very much, Richard. I see a lot to cover there. Where do you want to start, just very quickly on the Houthi strike? I think there the question is whether the Israelis respond against the Houthis or against Iran. And I would, my bet would be that you might see some attacks on Iranian military targets. The biggest story is obviously Gaza. Joe, for 18 months we've been waiting for the day after policy. Policy. Well, what I think you're getting is the day after policy. It's called occupation. It's called forcing the Palestinians of Gaza, the 2 million Palestine, into a very small chunk of Gaza. After this really siege for two months, I think the Israelis have given up an idea of an Arab stabilization force coming in. They don't want to start a political process that leads to any sort of satisfaction of Palestinian nationalism. What I don't know is whether this is, if you will, temporary, to quote, unquote, eradicate Hamas, which I think is unachievable. I do, I would fear that this will mean a lot of the still alive hostages will never see freedom. I think that'll be Hamas's reaction. And what worries me about this also is it's quite possible that what we're seeing is Israeli occupation of Gaza not simply as a means to an end, but as an end in itself. I do think it's possible. Again, explain to everybody, 2005, Israel had enough to say, we can't manage Gaza, we're going to turn it over to the Palestinians. So this is basically them stepping back into a situation that seemed untenable in 2005 back and how so has that goes to the West Bank. West bank, as some viewers may know, is divided into three areas, A, B and C. See, one of those is Israeli occupied. Some are shared, some are Palestinian. I'm beginning to think that Gaza is going down the same path and we're looking at an open ended Israeli control of some of Gaza. And the Palestinians, they're put into a really untenable position. This was already before any of this, the most crowded parcel of earth on Earth or 2 million people were packed into Gaza. Now we're looking at 2 million people packed into a slice of Gaza. It's also possible that the Israelis are very interest, interested in the Trump idea of forcing Palestinians out of Gaza. So watch. I don't think this is, my point is simply this is awful, but I don't think this is the end of it. Ana the suffering that's been going on in Gaza for some time, it's just been just absolutely dreadful. But it keeps going from bad to worse. And I think it is obviously first and foremost a story of a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza. But it is also so hearing that report, if you step back, it's the tragedy of the story of Israel. This is a country that was born out of trauma and the most barbaric treatment of a people, one of the most barbaric treatments of a people in human history. And a country born out of the ideals to protect and create a homeland and have that never happen again. And it had some great things in its constitution that said to be the opposite of what happened to Jewish people in other places. And so many of my Jewish friends look at these pictures and they are so anguished that something that was born out of that hurt and pain and trauma could go in this way. You know, as we all know, trauma can, if you heal yourself, if you heal people, it can go in a direction of saying never again. Actually never again. The trauma that happened to me will never happen again. And there is that political tradition in Israel, but that tradition has been buried by this government, this movement in Israel that comes from the other human story that if I was hurt, I will hurt. This is the hurt people, hurt people version of the state of Israel. It is so profoundly sad that never again has become instead I will hurt others. Well, this of course, in response. Jonathan Lemire to October 7th and and for those of us that have been talking about a two state solution for a very long time, there's just not the will. Richard, Richard's talked about it before. There's just not the will in Israel anymore for a two state solution. Certainly not right now. Certainly Palestinians aren't there either because of October 7th. What happened after October the seventh, seventh. And there you have had Israelis who would have opposed this on October 6th and would, would have, you know, told the government, you can, you can't go in there right now because, well, bit like America after 9, 11, just, just saying, no, there is no two state solution. And we're going to give this government that had a 30% approval rating. We're going to, we're going to give them more latitude to make sure that another October 7th doesn't come. And while that's certainly understandable, the consequences here are just extraordinary, extreme and just so distressing to see the continued suffering of the Gazan people. The humanitarian crisis is almost beyond belief in terms of the famine and destruction and death and so many women and children. And it remains, remains unabated. And you're right, there's a real divide in Israel. There are some who pre October 7th would have stood up against this, who now are supportive of the Israeli government. But we have also seen significant protest movements against Netanyahu, against what's happening here. Be curious to see what happens in the streets of Tel Aviv and other places after this decision by the government to put forth what looks to be at least a semi permanent occupation of the Gaza Strip. And I think Richard makes a good point here, that this is going to have a, the least subtle and perhaps overt blessing of the Trump administration. The Netanyahu government doesn't want the two state solution. They haven't pushed for it. We haven't heard anything from President Trump on that either. This is going to be something that likely. The White House will just keep their distance and allow Israel to move forward, but expect there to be some real opposition from other Western capitals in the days ahead. Coming up, a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including an attack. The crack plot thwarted by police on a major pop stars concert will tell you who it was and where. Plus, we'll read from Anand's piece entitled A Cure for Trumpism, Radical Empathy and Radical Change. Morning Joe will be right back. How many discounts does USAA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. 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Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by CHEV and its many campuses, including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning at 47 past the hour. North Korea is sending thousands of migrant workers to Russia as Moscow struggles with a sliding birth rate and a huge death toll in its war on Ukraine. As the Wall Street Journal reports, the laborers are highly prized in Russia, where they receive low wages and are willing to work 12 hour shifts without complaint. North Korea has also provided the Kremlin with weapons and soldiers. Police in Brazil say they foiled a plot to attack a Lady Gaga concert in Rio de Janeiro. Investigators say a group was planning to use improvised explosives and Molotov cocktails to target the crowd. At least one of the alleged ringleaders was arrested. The free show, which was not disrupted by the alleged plot, drew an estimated 2 million people. The Copacabana Beach Lady Gaga says she was unaware of the thwarted bomb threat until learning about it from the media. And President Trump says he is directing the Bureau of Prisons and other federal agencies to reopen Alcatraz. In a social media post last night, Trump explained he wants to rebuild and enlarge the former federal prison in order to house America's most ruthless and violent offenders. He later told reporters the idea came to him because radicalizing judges want to hold lengthy trials for all undocumented immigrants. Right now, Alcatraz is a national park. Still ahead on MORNING joe. Jonathan, do you have me reporting on this? It was also the set, you know, it's an extremely profitable tourist destination and raised like 50 or 60 million dollars a year. This caught by surprise yesterday that he that he suddenly floated Alcatraz, which was closed since the 1960s. It would take a lot of work to get back into condition to be. So the red action was not a documentary. I think it was an underrated movie, though. That's a very strong Sean Connery, Nicholas Cage. Absolutely. Yeah. That's very good. You're the rocket man. Exactly. We'll bring you the latest. Coming up on the latest, delays at Newark International Airport as United Airlines cuts its flights amid claims of tech issues and staffing shortages. NBC's Tom Costello will join us with his new reporting. Plus, we'll dig into a new report from the Washington Post on The president's quote, 48 hour scramble to fly migrants to a Salvadorian prison. Morning Joe. We'll be right back. Ladies and gentlemen, Benson Boone. Good to see you face and I really hope you're doing well. I hope you're doing well. That was Benson Boone performing on Saturday Night Live over the weekend. The show was hosted by actress and comedian Quinta Brunson Anand. Let's get to your latest piece for the ink you reflect on your conversation with candidate for U.S. senate in Michigan, Dr. Abdul El Sayed about what you call a cure for Trumpism. Explain what he told to it was really interesting. It was one of the first times we've been talking to lots of people at the INC about how do you thwart Trumpism but also what comes after it. Is there a different version of the future? This is one of the first times in these last months where I felt I heard something that really was a convincing view of a post Trump future. And I would summarize it as two ideas that may be challenging for lots of Democrats. One is radical empathy for Trump supporters. This guy is a progressive in Michigan, but he was very clear about no demonizing, no contempt, always welcome people back. There's gonna be a lot of chaos, a lot of pain as we've been talking about this morning, no gloating about people suffering from things that they voted for. So radical empathy. But and this is maybe harder for moderates, radical change. Not going back to 2015. He said a very striking thing. He said, you know, for certain liberals who just the whole problem is Trump and want to go back to like June of 2015, that's their own version of make America great again. So there's an idea of radical empathy that's different from the contempt we have seen. But there's also an idea of radical change that's different from the calls for kind of moderate centrist policy we've seen. And it struck me as very interesting to have a progressive out in Michigan, not a coastal guy in a tough Senate race saying we need to have a posture of openness and outreach to moderates and the right, but really in the economic realm be fighting for big sweeping policy that gives people something to come back to. He said we keep we can't fight something with nothing. And Democrats can't be vanilla. Anand. I mean, I hear what you're saying. I also hear so many Democrats who are overtaken by kind of fury at this moment. And for them, the idea of empathy is just too difficult. They, they kind of, they're very wary of the basket of deplorables that they fell into the trap of back in 2016. But I've heard many Democrats say, you know, that's kind of what I'm actually thinking. I don't see why I should reach out. I want to just, all I want is somebody who's going to fight. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's why, that's why I wrote it and framed it that way. Because what you just described is psychologically understandable, it is emotionally understandable. And I think the point I made in the essay is what may be good for your mental health may be different from what it takes to win. Well, it's also just absolutely horrific politics. And I mean, think about it. People that voted for Ronald Reagan twice, made Bill Clinton president twice, people who made Bill Clinton Clinton president twice, made George W. Bush president twice, people who made George W. Bush president twice, made Barack Obama president twice, even before Donald Trump came on the stage. And you are right, and I just want to underline another part of it, cuz I completely agree with you. Donald Trump got the most votes last time. If you are a Democrat and you want to win again, you either get some of Donald Trump's voters or Democrats lose again. So that's one side of it. But here's the other side of the equation too, and it's on economics. And I will say there is, you know, a circle where AOC starts here and Steve Bannon starts here. And they come together on economic populism saying don't give tax cuts to the rich, some tariffs seem to make a lot of sense, break up the monopolies in Silicon Valley. I mean, the fact if Democrats think they can run a Robert Rubin race in 2026, no disrespect to Robert Rubin, it certainly worked in the 90s. But that's not going to work in 2026 when you have people across the industrial Midwest and across America who have seen for the past 20 years their jobs go away, their incomes go away, and the American Dr. Yeah, and actually it's funny you mentioned Those too in 2019. I think it was. I went to interview Steve Bannon for a piece about Bernie Sanders at the time in Time magazine. And in the course of the piece, he had a lot of respect for Bernie Sanders for some of those same reasons. But he said AOC is the only Democrat I'm afraid of. He said, all these other people I find so easily beatable. I see them, I know the strategy for them, but not aoc. He was afraid of aoc. Interesting. Yeah. Again, because a lot of people may not realize this, but Steve Bannon is against tax cuts for the rich now and he's saying it right. Well, I mean, you've talked to Bannon recently. He's against tax cuts for the rich. He supports some of the tariffs, but he's a fan, as is, I think Josh Hawley and the vice president, president of Lina Khan break up the monopolies in Silicon Valley. So there is a place where Democrats can go, where they can pull over independents, disaffected voters who would vote for Bernie Sanders or AOC and listen to Steve Bannon's podcast. It sounds crazy in this world, but. But there is a through line, there is a nexus there. Bannon, I think, does have his finger on the pulse of the MAGA movement in many ways. And you're right, he has repeatedly said on his show, his podcast, which is listened to within the West Wing, he speaks to people inside all the time that he is against the big tax cuts for the rich. And to this day, you mentioned 2019. Here we are in 2025. He still speaks very approvingly of AOC, thinks he's a remarkable political talent and thinks her message is one that really resonates. All right, MSNBC political analyst Anand Girdaris, thank you so much for coming on this morning. We're so sorry you won't be around to talk about Bill Belichick. I have so many thoughts. I wrote my dissertation on him. Actually, a lot of people don't know Radical Empathy. At Strayer University, we help students like you go from is it possible to anything is possible by offering access to up to 10 no cost gen ed courses so you can reach your goals affordably and fast. Visit Strayer. Edu to learn more. No cost genites provided by Strayer University affiliate sophia. Eligibility rules apply. Connect with us for details. Strayer University is certified to operate in Virginia by CHEV and has many campuses including at 2121 15th Street north in Arlington, Virginia.