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- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
MSNBC Films presents a six part documentary series, David Frost versus On the next episode, Jane Fonda.
- [00:08]
Mika Brzezinski
The war is being escalated in the most tragic way.
- [00:12]
Jonathan Lemire
Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. An exciting day for Catholics and for America. We have a new Pope.
- [00:22]
Joe Scarborough
And against all odds, he is one of us.
- [00:25]
Jonathan Lemire
An American Pope. The Popemobile is now a Ford F250 with truck nuts.
- [00:30]
John Meacham
The new Pope actually graduated from Vill.
- [00:38]
Jonathan Lemire
It's wild that we have a Pope who might have done a keg stand.
- [00:41]
John Meacham
Outside an Eagles game.
- [00:42]
Jonathan Lemire
Isn't that wild? Might have.
- [00:44]
John Meacham
Might have. It's not just that Leo is an American. He was born in Chicago.
- [00:52]
Jonathan Lemire
This means, this means officially, I can no longer imitate the Pope using an Italian accent.
- [01:00]
Chris Jansing
From now on, the Pope's gonna sound like this. Hey there. It's your buddy Leo, the deep dish.
- [01:07]
Joe Scarborough
Papa, just talk to God and not.
- [01:10]
Jonathan Lemire
Even he can help the White Sox.
- [01:11]
John Meacham
Sorry.
- [01:14]
Jonathan Lemire
First order of business, I will be canonizing Michael Jordan.
- [01:19]
Chris Jansing
Now, let's end by saying da prayers.
- [01:25]
Jonathan Lemire
Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, May 9th. With us we have our co host for our fourth hour, a contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire Rogers, Chair of the American University American Presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian John Meacham and MSNBC anchor Chris Jansing. Willie, what a headline. Nobody in our lifetime expected to see this. An American Pope. And here's the Wall Street Journal and again, their view of it. Again, just absolutely incredible. First Pope from us elected. Really. You know, Jack was at school and asking is. They were watching, they were watching everything. And he said, who are the possibilities? And I sent him five possibilities. I'm sitting. I sent him five. I said, look for these five cardinals as possibilities. There was one more that the New York Times had put in there. And it was actually the Pope that actually became Pope Leo. But I said, you know, I'm not going to waste his time with an American Pope. There is no way the cardinals will ever elect someone from America. And then it really, it was an extraordinarily epic day. Not, not because he's from America, but it was such a shock. And also because this is a Pope who actually has read the red letters of the gospels and lives by them, believes in them. That Jesus said, you know, he's for everyone. He is. Especially for the poor and the needy and those without hope. It is the church of Jesus Christ that is supposed to bring hope to the hopeless, feed the poor, give water to the thirsty. And it happened yesterday against all odds, really. An American Pope.
- [03:42]
John Meacham
Yeah. Extraordinary. And the conventional wisdom was this would not be the choice for good reason, because obviously there's never been an American pope, for all the reasons we've talked about over the last several weeks, that it's viewed as too much concentration of power for one country in the world. But there, when the curtains parted and the door opened on St. Peter's balcony, there walked out. A man from Chicago, grew up in the south suburbs of Chicago, a White Sox fan, as confirmed by his brother yesterday, did, as we heard there a minute ago, go to Villanova, class of 1977. His brother reports that he does the wordle every day on the New York Times. He's, to put it short, one of us. And now he is the Holy Father. So, Chris Jansen, we all were glued to the coverage yesterday. You were on the air, you were in the anchor chair when Leo, Pope Leo, stepped out onto that balcony, shocked the world, and then riveted and excited America that our country now has its Pope.
- [04:42]
Mika Brzezinski
It's extraordinary. I had spent quite a bit of time during the funeral for Pope Francis, talking to folks in Rome, insiders, many of whom mentioned him, but always after saying why he would make a great pope, ended to a person with, but he's an American. Which brings us to what has now become a famous quote, that he's the least American of the American cardinals. But I think there's a lot more than that to him, right? He is somebody who bridges a lot of different divides. Yes, he's an American, brought up the way a lot of young priests were in a Catholic household, was an altar boy. In fact, there's a great story about how his friends, moms, when they were in grade school, said he will be the first American pope. They said that 50 years ago. So maybe moms, as usual, know something. But he was also the head of the dicastery of bishops, which is a very powerful position. It appoints it, it recommends the appointment of bishops. And that is essentially saying he. He's the guy who looked at and determined in many ways who would lead the church into the future. Now he is ultimately the one who is going to lead it into the future. And I was listening just before I came out here, he's saying his first Mass right now at the Sistine Chapel. And first of all, can we talk about how shocking it is to hear a pope speak English, maybe tinged with a little bit of south side in it? And he said when he was going to make his homily, he said, I'm going to start just very briefly before going into Italian speaking in English. And he said, you have called me to carry the cross. I'm humbled to carry out the mission. And he asked for the help of cardinals. He has got a big cross to bear, a divided church, a huge financial crisis, obviously the wars in Gaza. He's had things to say about Russia and Ukraine, criticizing Russia and then all the social talked about. But I think the world kind of took a breath when he came out onto that loggia and saw in him somebody very relatable, speaks five languages and as you pointed out, is a deeply learned man in the gospel. Somebody who has his master's degree in that before. You know, he also had undergrad in math and canon law for his PhD. So somebody who's facing a lot, but seems very calm in, in knowing what's ahead of him.
- [07:20]
Jonathan Lemire
Just, just remarkable. Chris, your coverage yesterday of an event that was just epic. And John Meacham, you know, we are so often left dizzy with just a barrage of images that assault us every day, so much so that pretty soon they all seem to blur together and we become numb by it all. Yesterday, though, yesterday afternoon, watching what unfolded yesterday in Rome, I was struck by how many people I spoke with who just said this was different. This, this was a remarkable event. It was epic, possibly an era defining moment that we were witnessing. Not because he is an American, though that certainly adds much drama and much shock to it all, but because this is a man who has devoted his life to serving the poor and is going to devote his papacy to speaking up for the poor, speaking up for the immigrant, speaking up for those that Jesus said we are supposed to focus on first, not the powerful, but the hungry, the thirsty, those without clothes, those left without hope. And this is a pope, and you could tell even by the name that he chose that he's decided he will follow, at least in this area in Francis, footsteps and will follow the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospels.
- [09:11]
Chris Jansing
He's also an Augustinian. That's his religious order. And one of the phrases, one of the many remarkable phrases that come to us through translation from St. Augustine, one of the great fathers of the church, is that something can be ever ancient and ever new. And I think that's part of what was going on with the people you were talking to is when there is an election like this, when there's a moment like this where there is a new figure in the most ancient of settings, it is renewing and there's something at once reassuring about the stability, the long chain from St. Peter to a White Sox fan. I don't think we've said this, but anybody who's a White Sox fan clearly is a man. So that's an important thing, I think, to note if you've been a Yankees fan, probably would been overweening pride, and so you can't do that. But I think that's part of what we're sensing is the pageantry, the powerful imagery is something that puts us all in the mind of tradition, you know, and tradition means handing on. It means something that has existed and been, been handed on, but with an infusion of something new and not necessarily different, but fresh. And the only other point I'd make is I say this as a Protestant. The point, one of the points of faith is that it is an outward and visible sign. This is what a sacrament is defined as, an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. And so what you see does matter. A manifestation, you know, a. An embodiment of something that becomes visible but is. Is invisible. And, you know, William James once said that God is real because he has real effects. I used to argue to agnostic and atheist friends that one could believe in God on the same evidence one believes in love. It's an invisible force with visible effects. And I think that a lot of this drama is what's unfolding as Leo XIV begins what could be a long papacy. He's, in relative terms, he's a young guy, right? He's 69.
- [11:56]
John Meacham
We're looking at live pictures on the left side of your screen there. That is inside the Sistine Chapel, as Chris said, Pope Leo XIV delivering his first Mass as pope. You see the stunning frescoes on the walls. He's standing in front of the Last Judgment, painted all those centuries ago by Michelangelo himself. And joining us now from the Vatican is Bishop Robert Barron of the Diocese of Winona Rochester in Minnesota. Bishop, great to have you back on the show. When we spoke to you 24 hours ago, there was speculation about who the choice might be. A long shot, I think it's fair to say. Was then Cardinal Prevost, now Paul, Pope Leo xiv. What are your thoughts this morning?
- [12:36]
Bishop Robert Barron
Well, I was one of those people saying, it'll never be an American. His name was mentioned. Everyone knew his qualities, but everybody said, it won't be an American. I was standing right here doing a little interview, and then the roar went up behind me. And we couldn't believe it was such an early election, you know, after I've gotten over the shock a bit. And last night with the adrenaline going, I had trouble getting to sleep. I kept drifting back to his night name. His name, I think, is extraordinarily important. If he was, you know, simply continuity with Francis, why wouldn't he be Francis ii? He didn't choose that name. He could have chosen a name like John Paul iii, like John xxiv, and would have given a very clear indication I'm on this side or that side. The fact that he reached back to the very end of the 19th century to this figure, Leo XIII, is very telling. Leo was someone who, at a pivotal moment, engaged modernity in a creative way. The Church had said no initially to the political reforms of the 18th century, the philosophical innovations of the 19th century, especially Marxism. It simply said no. Leo gave a very nuanced response that was both affirming and challenging. And therefore he sets the tone, I think, for a very intelligent, creative engagement with the modern world. I think that's what our new pope was signaling by choosing this extraordinary name. My other thought was, I'm the same generation as this man. We're like four years apart in age. I grew up in decent traffic about 25 minutes from where he did. So it is kind of amazing to think of the Pope as speaking with a South side Chicago accent, as I do. There's something, I think wonderful for Americans about that. But he's someone that will lift up the whole church for sure.
- [14:18]
Jonathan Lemire
You know. Jonathan o' Mear. Ed Kilgore in New York magazine talked about the name taken by the new pope, and this is what he wrote. It's in this morning's New York magazine. The new pope took the name Leo 14th, which could have been an indication of the legacy he hopes to leave. It's a pretty clear shot out to Leo the 13th, the late 19th century, who laid out a template for a distinctively Catholic social justice doctrine. And Mike Barnacle was talking about this yesterday, whether whether it was about workers rights or the poor, very, very clear message sent by the selection of the name Leo.
- [15:04]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, no question there. And as an American Catholic, I certainly was moved by the choice and the name as well. Someone who comes at a. In the Francis mold, we don't know that he will follow every one of Francis beliefs, his words, his rhetoric, but certainly still in that sort of progressive flank, one chosen in part because we will learn in days ahead, I am sure, of the cardinals that Francis installed who were more of his cut from his cloth, who wanted to further his work for the church, was obviously a very sort of precarious time for the church. And Bishop, I wanted to ask you is beyond the initial excitement, of course, that so many American Catholics feel today. You know, talk to us about the challenges, though, that this the Pope will have here, you know, where church is, attendance has dwindled, where, you know, there's sort of a rise of real conservatism within the church's ranks, who often stood against some of the teachings of Pope Pope Francis. And of course, an election of, of this, of this president who Francis, of course clashed with, you know, perhaps in a subtle way, but clashed with repeatedly. And this one seems set to perhaps do the same.
- [16:14]
Bishop Robert Barron
Well, I think looking in the Western world, this Pope will be very concerned about evangelization and the disaffiliation of so many, especially the young. So the engagement of those good people, I think the bringing forward of a church's social teaching, which, again, is neither liberal nor conservative in our terms. It's not Democratic, not Republican. It includes elements of both. And I think he's been clear, as Pope Francis was too. So we don't fit neatly into those categories at all. Leo XIII is a great example of that, by the way. When you read Rerum Novarum, is it a liberal or conservative document? Well, it's both. And in fact, to this day, liberal and conservative Catholics both reverence Leo xiii. One last thing I'd say is I think we might be underplaying the importance of, of financial reform here. For the cardinals that elected Leo the 14th, they might look at him as an administrator, ran a worldwide order, someone who's a Vatican insider, a curial insider, that might have played a bigger role than we imagine in his election.
- [17:15]
Jonathan Lemire
That is a fascinating part of it. John Meacham. I wanted to follow up with what the bishop said and also the conversation with John Lemire. You know, you go on social media yesterday after the selection, and there were, you know, there was one hot take after another that he was a leftist, that he was a Marxist, that he was this, that he was that. Yeah, actually, as the bishop said, he doesn't fit neatly into any ideological camp. This. These cardinals do not care about American politics. They don't vote for who's going to help the Democratic or the Republican Party the most. They are moved by the spirit in their selection. And here you have a pope who may be seen by some in America as more liberal on the humane treatment of immigrants, may be seen as more liberal on the responsibility of caring for the poor, for the disaffected, for the least among us. He's also, though seen as being staunchly pro life, a supporter of traditional Marriage. And then somewhere in the middle there are hints that like Francis, he may possibly support the blessing of same sex unions. But again, we don't know that and we don't know how he's going to rule. But the attempts yesterday to fit him into one neat American political ideological box is just laughable and showed the people that were writing about it and talking about it probably actually should read the red letters, as we say.
- [19:13]
Chris Jansing
And watch conclave again or something. Yeah, exactly. Get out of the, the minute to minute. I think that what I found so interesting about the, if you will, the Americanization of the conversation about this choice for the Universal Church.
- [19:33]
Jonathan Lemire
Right.
- [19:33]
Chris Jansing
1.4 billion people around, around the world, is it was an interesting affirmation. Not that one was needed, but I think it's worth pointing out of the moral character, the moral component of so many of the debates we're having here in our public square, that is to try to bring the new Holy Father into an American political context, I think actually says more about us than it does about him. I think it, it underscores that there is a huge moral component and with the basic drift in the American body politic toward an autocratic nativistic ethos. And I think that it says to me anyway that there are people who may not want to acknowledge that there's a significant moral component here, but there is. And again, it says a bit more about us, I think, than, than the Holy Father. The only other point I'd make is the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the most revolutionary of things. It is the last shall be first, the first shall be last. As you've been quoting Matthew 25. It is a faith in which our ordinary expectations of temporal and earthly power, authority and hierarchy will be reversed. Because as it says, I think in Acts, God has made of one blood the nations of the world. And at the, at our best in the United States, we follow the Declaration of Independence, which Jefferson wrote that sentence, that critical sentence, not because he was a not particularly passionate Anglican in those days, but because he believed in the principle of equality. And the principle of equality is at the heart of the gospel.
- [21:59]
John Meacham
And when we talk about Matthew 25 and looking back through some of what this Pope has said previously, you don't have to go back far to sort of see his guiding philosophy. As we watch Pope Leo XIV now leave to applause his first Mass as Pope. Just extraordinary images there out of the Sistine Chapel. He said in October of last year, quote, a bishop is not supposed to be a little prince in sitting in his Kingdom, but rather called authentically to be humble, to be close to the people he serves, to walk with them, and to suffer with them. It was then Cardinal Prevost, now Pope Leo xiv, as you see him, walking out of the Sistine Chapel. Chris Janssing. Extraordinary images here. And there was another image yesterday after the new Pope spoke from the St. Peter's loggia, that balcony there, you could see it sort of dawn on him, what had just happened as he looked out at the throngs, the crowd gathered there clapping for him. You could see some emotion come over him as it finally began to settle on him, that he was the Holy Father, that he is the new Pope.
- [23:05]
Mika Brzezinski
You could see at one moment where he kind of swallowed, you know, that idea of trying to hold in his emotions and lingering a bit, I think, on the balcony, knowing that the faithful came to see him and giving them the opportunity to remember this forever. But I think that he's lived his life in a way that reflects what you just said, which is he spent a huge part of his life in Peru as a parish priest and a missionary. He talked about the fact that when you work in a parish in a place like Peru, you have to also become an auto mechanic and figure out how to fix electrical systems. So he's done that hard work. I think one word he used yesterday on that balcony was sentinality, which a lot of non Catholics might know. In fact, a lot of non Catholics might not know, and a lot of Catholics might not know. But it basically talks about listening to everyone, not just to the hierarchy of the church, but down to the laity. That includes women, that includes members of the LGBTQ community. And Bishop Barron, if I can ask you, as people are analyzing with limited information, what kind of Pope he will be, what are you watching for? In the initial days, some folks I talked to said, well, who will replace him at the dicastery of bishops, which is so important to determining the future of the church? That will give us some indication. What are you watching for in these opening days of this papacy?
- [24:37]
Bishop Robert Barron
Well, I'm watching for symbolic expressions of the church's unity. I mean, naturally, and I get it, we reach for the political categories, and we're to situate him left, right. We look at particular political and moral questions. But the Pope's primary job, successor of Peter, is. He's the sign and symbol of the church's unity. He's the person in whom everyone in the church can find common ground. So I think it's these symbolic gestures of unification and of bridge building. As he said, even, you know, the choice of the name and the wearing of the Mozetta and the and so on, I think was an outreach to more traditionally minded Catholics. But I think just as Francis did 12 years ago, he made a number of symbolic gestures that indicated his heart. This man, I think is going to be symbolically gesturing toward his role as shepherd of the whole church. I'd look more at that level. Some of the policies and all that will come in time. And maybe he will, as I say, be focused more on these financial practical. But I think right now I want to see and I expect to see signs of his bringing the whole church together.
- [25:46]
John Meacham
Bishop Robert Barron at the Vatican, who points out to us this morning, grew up about 25 minutes away from the new Pope. Bishop, thank you so much for being with us again this morning. We appreciate it. Chris Jansen, Jon Meacham, great to have you with us on this morning as well. Thank you. Still ahead on MORNING Joe, President Trump unveils a trade agreement with the United Kingdom, but much of it still needs to be negotiated will go through what is actually included in this framework. And some of the backlash already from American automakers. Plus, the president is pushing House Speaker Mike Johnson to raise taxes on America's wealthiest people. What it could mean for Republicans complicated effort to finish a sweeping domestic policy bill. We are back in 90 seconds.
- [26:32]
Jonathan Lemire
Comcast Business helps retailers become seamlessly restocking, frictionless paying favorite shopping destinations. It's how nationwide restaurants become touchscreen ordering quick serving eateries and how hospitals become the patient scanning data managing healthcare facilities that we all depend on. With leading networking and connectivity, advanced cybersecurity and expert partnership, Comcast business is powering the engine of modern business powering possibilities. Restrictions apply. It's conversation, it's perspective.
- [27:02]
Joe Scarborough
It's the weekend on MSNBC with three new dynamic hosts, Jonathan Capehart, Eugene Daniels and Jackie Alemani. And in the evening, it's the weekend prime time with Eamonn Mohadin, Katherine Rampel, Elise Jordan and Antonia Hilton join them.
- [27:18]
Jonathan Lemire
As they offer analysis on the week's.
- [27:20]
Joe Scarborough
Most important events and set the agenda.
- [27:22]
Jonathan Lemire
For the week ahead.
- [27:23]
Joe Scarborough
The weekend at 7am eastern and the weekend prime time at 6pm eastern Saturdays.
- [27:28]
Jonathan Lemire
And Sundays on MSNBC. Citizens, since we each upgraded to Xfinity.
- [27:34]
Eugene Robinson
In our homes, the WI fi has been booming.
- [27:36]
John Meacham
It's fair to say our town has.
- [27:37]
Eugene Robinson
Officially become a boom town.
- [27:39]
Mika Brzezinski
Mayor, will I be able to drop into multiplayer gaming battles with low lag?
- [27:43]
John Meacham
The lag won't be an issue, but.
- [27:45]
Eugene Robinson
Your questionable skills may be.
- [27:47]
Jonathan Lemire
And what if I have hundreds of.
- [27:48]
Mika Brzezinski
Devices on the WI Fi? Purely hypothetical.
- [27:51]
Joe Scarborough
Seems like a lot, but sure, hundreds.
- [27:53]
John Meacham
Of devices all booming together with the Xfinity Gateway. Yes, friends and neighbors with Xfinity, the WI Fi is booming.
- [28:00]
Jonathan Lemire
Restrictions apply.
- [28:03]
John Meacham
Amid ongoing delays and cancellations at Newark International Airport, Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy has announced plans to overhaul the country's air traffic control infrastructure. At a news conference yesterday, Secretary Duffy vowed to make air travel safer and more efficient with a series of new updates. The plans include 25,000 new radios and replacing hundreds of old radar Systems, more than 4,000 new high speed network connections and rebuilding aging control towers.
- [28:35]
Jonathan Lemire
President Trump understands the problem and he wants to fix the problem. He doesn't want to take this problem and pass it to the next administration, to the next secretary, to a next set of victims who could lose their life in an air traffic incident. We're going to fix it today.
- [28:54]
Bishop Robert Barron
The system we have here, it's not worth saving.
- [28:57]
Jonathan Lemire
I don't need to preserve any of this.
- [29:00]
John Meacham
It's too old.
- [29:01]
Jonathan Lemire
You got a 1967 Volkswagen Beetle that you're using for transportation. I don't want to preserve the Beetle. I actually want to build a brand new car.
- [29:15]
John Meacham
So the good news, Joe, a lot of people wondering what has taken so long. That's not the fault of this transportation secretary. He just got there. Steve Ratner was telling us yesterday, for the last 30 years, our country has been talking about updating a system that dates back 60 years and bringing it to current standards. And hopefully now, unfortunately, because of these series of miscommunications, because of a tragedy in Washington back in January, hopefully now this change is coming.
- [29:44]
Jonathan Lemire
Well, yeah, let's hope it's done in a way that brings us actually well into the 21st century, because again, as Steve told us yesterday, in the year 2000, we were talking about a crisis and that it was going to have to be fix. JONATHAN lemire, BUREAU Whether it's bureaucracy, whether it's foot dragging by different administrations, whether it's just the unevenness of policy prescriptions from different administrations, there have been a lot of ups and downs. And here we are 25 years later, and the situation's even worse. And I think it's going to require looking at things like 56 as being the age of retirement. It's going to we're going to be looking at again, as Steve said, you know, people getting paper notices, get it, have to again, update this in a very dramatic way, but in a way that people that have been air traffic controllers for 5, 10, 15, 20 years will be able to move seamlessly into.
- [30:40]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, we hear about how antiquated the system is when there's like a high profile incident or a mistake or God forbid, a tragedy. But they're living with that each and every day. And I think it does seem though air travel, of course, by the numbers is extraordinarily safe, the rise of high profile incidents this year and notably the crash at DCA has really called a lot of attention to how the broken system and now we're seeing this ongoing issue at Newark, at Newark Airport. So we heard from President Trump on this yesterday too. He acknowledged just how old everything was. There was a need for placement. He said that he would be part of a team that would put together. He put together a team that would buy something new and modern and expensive. He didn't get into details. We heard from the transportation secretary again there, Willy, that this will come, but this will be Steve reminded us this is even if they act soon to start the process, it's probably going to take a long time for it actually put into place, which means for this summer and maybe for months and years beyond, travelers are still going to have to deal with these delays and issues.
- [31:39]
John Meacham
And we've been here before a quarter of a century ago at a critical moment and didn't get the reforms we needed. Let's see if it happens this time. Coming up here, the White House taps a Fox News host to serve as the interim you U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. we'll dig into that decision next on Morning Joe.
- [32:05]
Jonathan Lemire
Comcast business helps retailers become seamlessly restocking frictionless paying favorite shopping destinations. It's how nationwide restaurants become touchscreen ordering, quick serving eateries and how hospitals become the patient scanning data, managing healthcare facilities that we all depend on. With leading networking and connectivity, advanced cybersecurity and expert partnership, Comcast business is powering the engine of modern business, powering possibilities. Restrictions apply.
- [32:33]
David Rhode
USAA knows dynamic duos can save the.
- [32:36]
Joe Scarborough
Day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply. Stay connected with the MSNBC app bringing you breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere.
- [32:56]
Mika Brzezinski
All the stories that we're covering are live and happening as we speak.
- [33:00]
Joe Scarborough
Watch your favorite shows live.
- [33:01]
Mika Brzezinski
What's happening right now is a hostile takeover of the US Government.
- [33:06]
Joe Scarborough
Read live blogs and in depth essays and listen to cover as it unfolds. Go beyond the what to understand the why? Download the app now@msnbc.com app.
- [33:20]
John Meacham
President Trump has announced the appointment of the now former Fox News host Jeanine Pirro as interim U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. after pulling the nomination of Ed Martin for that position. The president made the announcement on social media mentioning Pirro's previous roles as a prosecutor and a judge. Fox News announced yesterday Pirro will leave the channel after she was named to that new position. Martin, a longtime right wing activist, had been serving in the interim position since President Trump was inaugurated in January. But Martin faced opposition from a key Republican member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator Thom Tillis of North Carolina. Because of Martin's defense of January 6th rioters. The President announced Martin will move to the Department of Justice to serve as the new director of the Weaponization Working Group, as well as associate deputy attorney general and pardon attorney. As for Pirro, she has pushed conspiracy theories about voting in the aftermath of Trump's 2020 election loss. She also came up in litigation filed by Dominion Voting Systems. Fox News and Dominion reached a more than $787 million settlement in the defamation lawsuit back in 2023. Joining us now, NBC News National Security Editor David Rhode Island, Pulitzer Prize winning columnist and MSNBC political analyst Eugene Robinson, and the host of Way Too Early, Ali Vitale. Good morning to you all. David, I'll start with you. Let's talk about Ed Martin first. I think it's a name people may be somewhat familiar with but don't know his full background. Who is he exactly? How did he get in the position he's in now and what happened in terms of his having to step away from this interim position?
- [35:02]
David Rhode
So he was a little known figure. He was basically primarily working in Missouri as an attorney, didn't really succeed politically. But his claim to fame in Trump world was defending January 6th defendants. He was at January 6th didn't sort of participate in it, wasn't accused of anything criminal. But he pushed January 6th conspiracy theories. And then once he himself was the acting U.S. attorney in Washington, pushed out dozens of people who carried out those investigations, attorneys and other staffers. He threatened to investigate Senator Chuck Schumer, you know, because of some statements he made criticizing Supreme Court justices. And the concerning thing here is that he's not finished. He is now going to be the head, as you mentioned, of this weaponization group in the Justice Department. And that's specifically designed to go after President Trump's enemies. So this isn't President Trump sort of backing down or backing away. This is Trump being Trump Both, I think, the selection of Pirro and then this new job for, for Martin, Jonathan Lemire.
- [36:07]
Jonathan Lemire
Obviously, there was a lot of concern in Washington about Ed Martin, a lot of concern because he immediately goes in and decides to pick the top ranking Democrat in the United States Senate to open an investigation on, then goes after Georgetown Law School trying to tell them who they are to hire who they are to admit, at least that's the way Georgetown Law School took it. And he got a pretty fast brushback pitch from Georgetown Law School and appeared to back down. But a lot of concerns, well beyond even the January six conspiracy theories.
- [36:53]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, no question there. He himself tweeted out that he was going to investigate the Associated Press for not adhering to Donald Trump's wishes to call it the Gulf of America. There's no crime there. But he said that that was something that he thought his department should his would also probe. So I think that there is, you know, first of all, there are concerns about Ginny Pirro in this new role. And I was told yesterday that people in the White House think this will be more than just an interim position. They think that she could be the permanent U.S. attorney there for Washington. But Eugene Robinson, for Martin in his new role, as well as David just laid out, this is not a retreat from Donald Trump. This is putting him in another position where he perhaps can even more effectively carry out Trump's agenda.
- [37:38]
Eugene Robinson
Absolutely. It's part of the purge. I mean, there's a purge going on in the Justice Department, let's call it what it is. And I think that's what Ed Martin will be doing. I'm quite concerned about what Jeanine Pirro will be doing in Washington, D.C. the U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. is the local prosecutor. In addition to, you know, so many important sort of cases come, come through that court system. But with the D.C. under federal control, this is an incredibly important job for people who live in the District of Columbia. We're already denied, you know, voting representation in Congress. And, and now we'll have a Fox News host and election denier as their chief prosecutor.
- [38:33]
Jonathan Lemire
Obviously, great concerns there, and we'll see how that moves forward. Also yesterday, President Trump announced the framework of a trade deal with the United Kingdom. The agreement is going to lower tariff unemployment cars from the UK from 27.5% to 10%, while tariffs on UK steel and aluminum will be dropped completely. But the White House has a baseline 10% tariff on all UK imports will stay in place. Meanwhile, the UK is removing taxes for American companies to sell beef, poultry and ethanol. It's still not clear when the deal is going to be finalized. As the New York Times reports, the British government is still pushing to bring down the 10% tariff on most other goods. And American officials want Britain to reconsider tax on technology companies. Officials, though, from both governments are going to need to meet in the coming months to hammer out more specific language, leaving open the potential for disagreements. But Gene Robinson, there are a lot of people that are complaining that this is symbolic, symbolism, obviously very important. It's also the fact that there is a good relationship between Keir Starmer and the American president. Certainly helped this move forward. Certainly seemed to calm the markets a little bit yesterday. But there are a lot more deals that need to be done before again, those that are, that are concerned about our economy cratering into a recession for those concerns are eased even more.
- [40:08]
Eugene Robinson
Yeah, this seems to me to be absolutely the lowest of the low hanging fruit that was out there. You know, there's, there's no huge trade imbalance between the US And Britain. It's not as if the UK runs some sort of big trade surplus with the United States. And by some measures it's the other way around. I didn't see a lot in this about the areas in which that are sort of more important to the two economies where, where the US and the UK actually compete. I mean, in financial services, for example, the City of London versus Wall street in, in, in, in tech. Britain is probably the, the, you know, after the US and China, arguably Britain would be further along in AI than any other country. A lot of Google's DeepMind started there. And I know that the UK is very interested in a sort of more cooperative relationship going forward, especially in tech. So we'll see how this evolves. But this is not actually like a trade deal. It's a framework that doesn't change a lot, in my opinion.
- [41:28]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, that's certainly a popular sentiment. Yeah, it matters. But it is just a small piece of this and there's a long way to go considering that the trade relationships the US still needs to establish with places like Canada, Mexico, China in particular. And David Rhode, I know you think that this is a bit of a distraction. We say a lot on the show and it's true, it's been borne out his first term and again this term, when President Trump wants to talk about something else, usually his reflexes go to immigration. But these days, because his tariffs and the trade war he has started have so dominated this term, this administration right now, we've seen the markets react We've seen the economic worries and the like. White House aides told me last week they were really eager to get some sort of deal done. They have one now. But you argue this is actually distracting. Like he's, hey, look at this. I mean, because they're not addressing a lot of the other global crises, including what we're seeing overseas. India, Pakistan and the rest of the.
- [42:24]
David Rhode
Yes. So he is trying to, he has changed the narrative again, and he's very successful at that. But in terms of his foreign policy achievements, you know, peace in Ukraine, first day he's in office, that hasn't happened. Gaza, there's been no solution there, and a worsening, you know, humanitarian situation there, and then these key negotiations with Iran. So he has his first international trip next week. He's going to go to Saudi Arabia and other parts of the Middle East. He hasn't really achieved much in terms of his broad foreign policy, anything at all. And what we're hearing is that the Ukraine talks have stalled. Putin might not be willing to compromise at all. It's very unclear what's going to happen in Gaza. And the talks with Iran are really important. Our colleague Courtney Kuby reported that this bombing campaign against the Houthis last week, Trump declared victory and said they had capitulated. They haven't capitulated. They're still saying they're going to attack Israel. And most of all, in the seven weeks of the bombing campaign, it has cost hundreds of millions of dollars, possibly a billion dollars. So these are all struggles in terms of the foreign policy front. In many ways, he's stuck in this same sort of quagmire that the Biden administration struggled with also, and he hasn't been able to shift away from that.
- [43:38]
John Meacham
We'll stay on that story, Ali. Meanwhile, I want to get to your beat, which is on Capitol Hill. But President Trump now pressing House Speaker Mike Johnson to raise taxes on some of America's wealthiest people. Reports say the president's proposal would revert the top rate of 37% back to 39.6% for those making $2.5 million or more annually. The president also wants to close a loophole that would treat carried interest as regular income. So some intrigue here, Ali. Where does this come from? First of all, from the President's side of the street. And how Speaker Johnson try to fold this into a larger bill he's trying to get through.
- [44:20]
Ali Vitale
Well, look, the name of the game here on Capitol Hill for Republicans is figuring out how to pay for all of the different policy priorities. That they're trying to achieve in this tax package. And so, yes, they are extending the Trump tax cuts. Though, as I was reminded on way too early this morning, just because we're talking about tax cuts doesn't mean that Americans are getting new cuts. They're just extending the cuts that were made back in 2017. So that's an important, important piece of it as the president and the White House try to say, don't worry, relief is coming on tariffs and other cost raising measures because they're going to see their taxes get cut in the instance now of high earners, watching them try to mull over whether or not the highest paid Americans are going to be paying more in taxes. I think some people might have whiplash if they follow conservative ideology when it comes to financial policy and to tax policy here. Certainly one Republican strategist that I was talking to this morning on my show definitely said that. And I think that the way that you can look at it is that this is now a schism between the more MAGA wing of the party on taxes, the way that Trump is trying to potentially find a new pay for here, and then also the more traditional conservative parts of the party. But whether or not, and this is going to be the balancing act on every twist of the, of the, of the game that we see here on Capitol Hill on this policy is who does it earn them and who does it lose them. They are playing with very tight margins, especially in the House, but also in the Senate in this instance, House goes first. Maybe this appeases people who are more of the hardline conservatives on things like the budget, but that it could also lose them more moderate members who are more traditional conservatives in terms of the way that they think about taxes. Again, all of this is a balancing act. Nothing is firm. But they are starting to do some of those key committee marks markups, those got pushed off last week. And they're going to try to start actually hammering out and writing the details here. And that, of course, is where the devil is.
- [46:11]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, you know, Gene Robinson, this is, it was pretty extraordinary. And what it's showing is there has been a divide and it was a natural divide that a lot of us talked about. I know you talked about it, but there's, there's a divide in Donald Trump's base. So you have the Musk wing, the, the gazillionaires, the tech gazillionaires versus the Bannon wing, which is the MAGA base. It's the working class base that Donald Trump has been able to get from, from Democrats. And when we were talking about high tech visas for, for, for immigrants, you had Musk on one side and you had Bannon on the other. That got very ugly. If you talk about tariffs, the same thing. I mean, Musk and so many of those billionaires that supported Donald Trump hate the tariffs. The Bannon wing of the MAGA base like them very much. And now on tax cuts, you have Steve Bannon and the MA and many of the MAGA base talking about taxing the rich. Why? Because they're populists. They're like billionaires don't need more tax cuts. But that is exactly why billionaires wrote massive checks to Donald Trump. And that has been the operating theory. I just, so I set all that up to say the Democrats playbook certainly since I was in Congress is those Republicans, they want to cut Medicaid, they want to cut Medicare, they want to cut Social Security for their tax cuts for the rich. That's always a punchline for good reason because what they have done is ban specifically to help the richest Americans. And in this case, though, imagine what happens if, if Donald Trump does something that the Democratic Ways and Means chairman was afraid to do back when he had power to do it and that is close the carried interest loophole and raise taxes on millionaires and billionaires. I mean, how does that reshuffle the deck?
- [48:19]
Eugene Robinson
Cognitive dissonance here. I mean, it's crazy. But you're right. You've got, in the coalition, you've got the plutocrats versus the populists. And you know, so Trump can try to, try to make his way. And if he zigs this way, that does raise questions abouti'm sure people will write and talk about why didn't Democrats do this when they had control. I'm sure Democrats will have an answer to that. But it comes back to the arithmetic this time. I think Ali is right. They've got to find a way to try to make these numbers work out. And however they try to go politically, it's still unclear that they've got enough people on board one of these approaches to actually get their basic duties done, which is to pass the budget and appropriate the funds for the government. So it is a fascinating twist by Donald Trump, but we'll see if he actually goes that way and we'll see if it makes any difference.
- [49:29]
John Meacham
Pulitzer Prize winning columnist Eugene Robinson and NBC News national security editor David Rhode, thank you both. Still ahead, NBC's Morgan Radford joins us with her new reporting on a homelessness crisis in Las Vegas, where officials say more than 1,000 people are living underground. Morgan takes us there when Morning Joe comes right back.
- [49:56]
Jonathan Lemire
As we celebrate this morning, I invite you to recognize the marvels that the Lord has done, the blessings that the Lord continues to pour out upon all of us through the ministry of Peter. You have called me to carry that cross and to be blessed with that mission. And I know I can rely on each and every one of you to walk with me as we continue as a church, as a community of friends of Jesus, as believers, to announce the good news, to announce the gospel.
- [50:34]
John Meacham
That's Pope Leo XIV celebrating his first mass this morning as pontiff. This morning at the Sistine Chapel. Yesterday, he addressed the public for the first time from the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica. NBC News correspondent Ann Thompson has more on the new leader of the Catholic Church, an American from Chicago.
- [50:58]
Mika Brzezinski
The world calls him Pope Leo XIV. To his friends, he's Bob. The multilingual 69 year old told an Italian interviewer earlier this month that he grew up in a very Catholic family. In Chicago. At Villanova University near Philadelphia, bells rang out to celebrate one of their own. The new pope earned a bachelor's degree in Mathematics in 1977. Villanova is one of only two Augustinian Catholic institutions of higher education in the US The Augustinians here in Rome, enormously proud. Did you ever think your friend would become pope?
- [51:41]
Jonathan Lemire
No. It's still incredible.
- [51:43]
David Rhode
I was crying in the piazza, just.
- [51:45]
Jonathan Lemire
Overwhelmed with joy about, yeah, my friends, the pope, Fr.
- [51:51]
Mika Brzezinski
Joseph Farrell, has known Pope Leo since the 1980s. He says the new pope plays tennis every week and is a speedy texter. I asked him to text the pope and ask if he's a Chicago Cubs or White Sox fan. The pope texted back socks.
- [52:07]
David Rhode
The one you see is the one who he is.
- [52:09]
Jonathan Lemire
He does not put on airs. He does not put on a mask.
- [52:12]
Mika Brzezinski
He first came to Rome to study church law, then went to northern Peru as a missionary. He spent more than 20 years in the country, becoming a naturalized citizen. There. He would rise through the ranks of the church, becoming a bishop, then called back to Rome by Pope Francis to oversee the church's bishops, bringing a global and American perspective.
- [52:34]
Jonathan Lemire
I am American and I think I do have some insights into the church in the United States. So the need to be able to advise, work with Pope Francis and to look at challenges that the church in the United States is facing, I hope to be able to respond to them with a healthy dialogue.
- [52:56]
Mika Brzezinski
Like Francis before him, he wants a church that builds bridges and welcomes all though as a cardinal he was a prince of the church, he never saw himself that way.
- [53:06]
Jonathan Lemire
The bishop is not supposed to be.
- [53:08]
Bishop Robert Barron
A little prince sitting in his kingdom.
- [53:12]
Jonathan Lemire
But rather called authentically to to be humble, to be close to the people he serves.
- [53:17]
Mika Brzezinski
As a cardinal he was close to Francis. Here's what he had to say back in 2013.
- [53:23]
Jonathan Lemire
He's a man who on the one hand is very simple and very profound.
- [53:26]
John Meacham
In his faith, but he's a hard.
- [53:27]
Jonathan Lemire
Worker and he knows, I think, what's ahead of him.
- [53:29]
Mika Brzezinski
Now it is his turn to lead the Church, the man friends call Bob the first American Pope. Leo XIV. How many discounts does USAA Auto Insurance offer?
- [53:42]
Jonathan Lemire
Too many to say here.
- [53:43]
Joe Scarborough
Multi vehicle discount, Safe driver discount, New.
- [53:46]
Chris Jansing
Vehicle discount, Storage discount.
- [53:48]
Mika Brzezinski
How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usaa.com autodiscounts restrictions apply.