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- [00:01]
Willie Geist
Are you going to deploy Marines in California?
- [00:03]
Donald Trump
We'll see what happens. I mean, I think we have it very well under control. I think it would have been a very bad situation. It was heading in the wrong direction. It's now heading in the right direction. And we hope to have the support of Gavin because Gavin's the big beneficiary as we straighten out his problems. I mean, his state is a mess. And I'd like to get somebody involved in the rail because, look, personally, it should have never been built because you can fly there for $2 and what are you doing? They're doing that. You could drive. You could do lots of different things.
- [00:35]
Joe Scarborough
President Trump pivoting to the topic of high speed rail after being asked about deploying Marines to California. Hours after that statement, the Pentagon activated hundreds of Marines sending them to the LA area. We're going to bring the latest from Southern California in just a moment. Also ahead, HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Has removed all members of the CDC's independent vaccine advisory Committee, something he told a Republican senator he would not do prior to his confirmation hearings. Plus, Russia just launched one of its largest air attacks on the capital of Ukraine, which followed a massive drone strike yesterday. And Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is set to testify before multiple congressional panels this week. It comes as the White House is struggling to hire senior advisers for the former Fox News host. We'll dig into that new reporting. Good morning and welcome to Morning Show. It is Tuesday, June 10th. Along with Willie and me, we have the co host of our fourth hour contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, MSNBC contributor Mike Barnacle and politics bureau chief and senior political columnist for Politico, Jonathan Martin and Willie. We begin and continue to follow the news out of Los Angeles.
- [02:00]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, and it's not just high speed rail. There are protests that continue throughout downtown Los Angeles overnight, this time less violent than what we saw over the weekend. Fewer clashes reported yesterday with law enforcement as groups marched across the city in protest of the Trump administration's immigration raids. Despite that, the White house deployed another 2,000 National Guard troops, bringing the total number to 4,700. Marines also were activated. California Governor Gavin Newsom says the deployment, deployment of troops is unnecessary and only sows more fear and anger. He's also calling the president's decision to mobilize the Marines illegal, saying he will file a lawsuit against that move, just like he did for the National Guard troops yesterday. In that lawsuit, the state of California alleges the Trump administration violated both federal law and the Constitution, claiming the Defense Department did not communicate directly with the governor's office about deploying troops. President Trump, however, told reporters yesterday he does not regret sending in the National Guard.
- [03:03]
Donald Trump
We stopped it. We were able to make it much better, but it still looked pretty bad. And in watching clips last night, people were saying, this is really a big problem. And until we went in, if we didn't do the job, that place would be burning down just like the houses burned down. There's so many different places where we let it burn. We want to be politically correct. We wanted to be nice. We want to be nice to the criminal. And what you're doing is destroying the fabric of our life in this country. No, we, we did the right thing.
- [03:34]
Mika Brzezinski
We'll have much more on the lawsuit when California's Attorney General, Rob Bonta joins us a little bit later this morning. Joining us now from Los Angeles, NBC News correspondent Camila Bernal. Camila, good morning. So we are hearing it was a little quieter overnight than it's been for the last several days in the streets of Los Angeles. Is that what you've been seeing?
- [03:54]
Willie Geist
It is. Willie, good morning. And we could be entering day five of protests, but things are very calm right now. As we ended day four of protests, it always tends to end with police declaring an unlawful assembly, meaning everyone has to be cleared out or else they're going to get arrested. So you have more peaceful streets right now. It's obviously three in the morning here in Los Angeles. There is still a large police presence in certain areas in downtown la, and there is a lot of cleanup to do here, business owners and, of course, local officials, because there was a lot of looting overnight. And when you do walk around some of the streets in downtown la, you're going to see a lot of the graffiti. But local officials saying that they are going to investigate all of this and likely arrest people in the coming days as they continue to look through surveillance video and look through to see who exactly is responsible for the looting. But it is really important to point out that throughout the day, mostly peaceful protests, there's a lot of people who have gone out to try to get their voices heard, but who have been mostly peaceful. And some of these demonstrators even reporting trying to stop some of the people who are wanting to escalate things. There's usually one or two people or a group of people that just want to get more violent and want to get, get things escalated. And that's when you see those police officers coming in with the flashbangs and coming in with the tear gas, trying to disperse the crowds. That's when you see sort of the stampedes of people trying to get out of the way of these officers. Mayor KAREN Bass, in the meantime, pleading with the federal government to stop the ICE raids. That's really at the center of this issue, at the center of protests, because so many here in Los Angeles of minority descent, so many here of Latino or Hispanic descents and people who are undocumented, that is just the fabric of Los Angeles. So a lot of people saying, these are our friends, these are our neighbors who are getting separated from their families. Yesterday we heard from family members of those who were detained by ICE during the raids here in Los Angeles, and they were in tears, pleading with federal authorities for the release of their family members, for just essentially figuring out where they even are, because many of them have not even been able to talk to their family members who have been detained by ice. So that really is the center of these protests, the center of this issue and why a lot of people here in Los Angeles don't want to see the National Guard and don't want to see the Marines. So, again, less violent protests yesterday. We're waiting to see what happens today as this all continues to unfold here in Los Angeles.
- [06:36]
Mika Brzezinski
So, Camilla, As I mentioned, 2,000 more National Guard troops now being sent in by the Trump administration. The governor, the mayor, even the LAPD itself says the LAPD can handle what is in the streets of LA right now. We don't need the National Guard. So from your reporting and from what you've seen, what exactly are the National Guard troops who've been deployed? Because not all of them are out and deployed. What are they doing in this operation?
- [07:02]
Willie Geist
Yes. And most of them are guarding a lot of these federal buildings and standing in front of the buildings that are run by the federal government. So you have a lot of protesters who approach these areas who want to be there to protest essentially in front of them. But you do really have LAPD and the sheriff's office really taking charge and trying to figure out they're sort of caught in the middle and trying to keep the order. But local officials like you mentioned saying that the LAPD and the sheriff's office, they are big police and sheriff's departments, they can handle these kinds of protests. I've been out in the streets for multiple protests here in downtown LA. You usually end up on the 101 freeway because it's so close to the downtown area. So it's really not the first time that you see this sort of protest In Los Angeles, it obviously has escalated because of the politics behind all of this and the back and forth between the federal government and local officials. But it's not necessarily uncommon to see these protests in L A and in downtown L. A, and of course, they do cause some disruption in the area. But it's not something that the LAPD hasn't seen before, and it's not something that the sheriff's department hasn't dealt with before.
- [08:17]
Mika Brzezinski
Willie NBC's Camilla Bernal reporting from Los Angeles this morning. Camilla, thanks so much. Let's bring in retired U.S. army Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling. His military career spans more than three decades of service, including as the commanding general of the United States Army Europe and the 7th Army. General, it's always good to talk to you. When I say you hear National Guard being sent in by the president, when you hear about Marines, active duty Marines being called up to a civil disobedience, to protest, to demonstrations in the streets, what does that trigger for you in your mind as a general?
- [08:51]
Mark Hertling
It triggers a couple things, Willie, and it's a great question because we keep using the word, and the word that's being headlined is deployment of troops. They're deploying troops, whether it's the Guard or the Marines to Los Angeles. Is that a legal thing to do, that the president can do that? Yes, it is. The president can deploy soldiers or Marines anywhere. The fact that we have to look at is what is the mission set? What are they attempting to do? And you hit this very well in your conversation just now. What's their job? The National Guard's job, unless it's under the Insurrection act, is to provide support for civilian authorities. In fact, that's the mission set, which means they guard buildings. That's okay. Why the White House has deployed Marines, I can only venture to say it's because they want to use the intimidation factor of Marines being there. But Marines can't do anything more than provide support to civilian authorities either. And truthfully, Marines don't train in that mission set, so that's very dangerous. When you pull Marines into that area, as you saw, there's a couple of pictures of Marines training with the shields and the batons. That's likely the first time they've ever touched those kinds of equipment. When you put them up against local citizens, civilians within the Los Angeles area, they're going to be anxious, let's, let's use that word as opposed to scared. They're facing their, their fellow citizens, and they haven't been trained in the right way. That Police use to disperse crowds or push crowds around. They can do the stomp and drag, as they call it, with batons and shields, but that really doesn't have an effect. Guarding buildings. Fin that's a legal order. But it's truthfully, the tipping point is going to be if the President calls an insurrection act, which is defined as trying to overthrow the government. We haven't seen any indicators of that yet. That's when it's going to become dangerous. He can deploy troops to support civilian authorities, but they don't arrest, they don't touch, they don't handle people. Secretary Hegseth put out a tweet yesterday that said something to the effect of we're now deploying Marines and they're going to round up these criminals. I'm telling you, if that happens, that's an illegal act.
- [11:07]
Jonathan Lemire
So General, let's talk about that dynamic. You just very effectively pointed out how this has been unfamiliar situation for Marines, some of them anxious, never been in a place like this. Also, the sight of these Marines, these National Guard members, is evocative. It's provocative. For those who are there protesting, who see military, US military, on the streets of an American city, tensions could certainly rise. What is your fear then of an escalation if something just goes wrong, one side or the other, somebody makes a mistake and then suddenly we're in a whole new.
- [11:38]
Mark Hertling
Yeah, I'm anxious about it, Jonathan. It, it could happen. Anytime you put people with guns or batons in front of people who are angry or upset about a situation, there's always, and it's a mob, there's always the potential for higher levels of damage. That concerns me. But what also concerns me is the fact that you're putting uniform police, or excuse me, uniform military, both National Guard and Marines, alongside federal workers, the ICE agents, the FBI agents, and then you put a third factor in of the LA police who are just trying to do their job. So it is the Northern Command commander's requirement to coordinate all this with all of the civilian agencies, the police, the FBI, the ICE agents. And that four star general really has to say, what am I trying to do here? What's the mission set? What are the rules of engagement? Who's doing what to who? It's a lot more complicated than just putting forces there. And there are indicators out of the White House right now that they have not done a very good job from the Defense Department in providing rules of engagement to these, these military personnel. The last thing I'll say is you're seeing ICE agents and Others with mask on. You're not going to have military with masks, but they are going to be dressed the same way as many of these militarized police forces. So there's going to be confusion and it's also contributing to a damage of the institution of the military, which is supposed to defend against outside agitators, enemies of the country. And instead we're putting them face to face with civilians who are using their First Amendment right to protest and use free speech.
- [13:24]
Mike Barnicle
General Hertling, first of all, happy birthday to you and the army, 250 years old today. Secondly, could we talk about the cost of what's going on? You have literally a battalion of Marines being transported from 29 Palms to downtown Los Angeles. That's a difference of about 150 miles. I don't know how they got there, but they're there. Secondly, when they're there along with the National Guard, none of them, not combat ready Marines, not the National Guard weekend people, none of them have the power to use the three magic words that are magic in calming things down in the city. Those words are, you're under arrest.
- [14:08]
Jonathan Martin
What is their role?
- [14:10]
Mike Barnicle
What is the cost of having them there?
- [14:13]
Mark Hertling
Well, when you either mobilize and deploy National Guard, our Marines, the government's paying for a mission they didn't anticipate when they transfer National Guard soldiers from Title 32 to Title 10. I don't want to get into that craziness. It costs the federal government money, especially when the state says we don't need them. So the National Guard is all being paid for by Washington D.C. and our taxes. The Marines, I mean, they're serving every day. If they're active component Marines, then it's just a transfer. And I know 29 pounds well because I used to serve at Fort Irwin, California, which is just across the road in the middle of the desert where we do our training. It's not tough to move military forces anywhere. But when they get there, again, are they being used the right way? Are they given a mission? Are they given rules of engagement? Are they coordinated with the other federal agency? Those are all parts of, you know, the support to civilian authorities. But you bring up a very good point, is how much is this costing? I'd suggest it's costing a lot because you're not only transporting and trying to house, even though we saw some soldiers sleeping on the floor in various buildings last night that obviously didn't have a place to stay, but you're also feeding them and caring for them while they are deployed. That's very Tough. There's money involved with that. It's a deployment that's unplanned for.
- [15:41]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. Barnacle mentioned the Army. We're going to be talking to General Herdling about the 250 birthday celebration that is taking place this Saturday in just a moment. There's some other issues with that as well, but President Trump is endorsing the idea of arresting California Governor Gavin Newsom. Trump made the comment to reporters yesterday following his border czar Tom Homan statement that anyone who impedes ICE efforts in Los Angeles would be arrested.
- [16:15]
Mika Brzezinski
Kevin Newsom, he's daring Tom Holman to.
- [16:21]
Jonathan Lemire
Come and arrest him. Should he do it?
- [16:24]
Mark Hertling
I would do it if I were Tom.
- [16:25]
Donald Trump
I think it's great.
- [16:27]
Mike Barnicle
Gavin likes the publicity, but I think.
- [16:29]
Mika Brzezinski
It would be a great case.
- [16:31]
Joe Scarborough
J Mart. Yeah. You're. Yeah. A lot of guys going, yeah, me. Yeah, me. You. I don't know. It's just words at this point, but not great language at a time like this.
- [16:46]
Jonathan Martin
I guess he's responding like he's being asked if, you know, you know, he wants to get Chinese food tonight. I would do it. You know, I mean, it's so flippant. It's so unserious. He. It's not on the level. He doesn't want Gavin Newsom to actually be arrested. He's doing WWF stuff here. You know that, I know that. We all know that. But the problem is he's the President of the United States and he's the commander in chief. I'm less. We're worried about him popping off on the White House South Lawn and saying, arrest Gavin. We all know it's B.S. i'm more concerned about the fact that he's deploying active duty Marines to an American city. This is so far beyond the pale. It is so wildly uncalled for. And also politically, it is deeply challenging because if you are the Democrats, as the saying goes, if you're explaining, you're losing, it's a hell of a lot easier to say, there's people burning American flags and destroying cars in an American city and we're going to crack down and restore order. That's a lot easier message than saying, well, you know, section 403 of US code says that you can't actually get actual. If you say those words, it's already over. You're already losing. So it's a deeply challenging issue on the politics for Democrats, but it's sobering, I think, for all of us as Americans.
- [18:04]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah. Front page of your newspaper, the New York Times. Tyler Pager's piece Trump leaps at chance for clash in California. He thinks as a rule that he's winning if we're talking about immigration. Elon who Illegal immigration.
- [18:16]
Jonathan Martin
Elon. Never heard of him.
- [18:17]
Mika Brzezinski
This is right about or chaos in American cities. He feels like that is really good ground for him to be fighting on. And he says, you got people, look at the pictures. We just heard that. He said you saw clips of police cars burning and people spitting on American flags. He thinks he's winning this argument.
- [18:33]
Jonathan Martin
The whole energy for Trump and Trumpism is the sense that things have gone too far in this country. It's a vague idea of it's just all too much. And you can use the word wokeism or whatever, but really it's the sense of it's gone too far. And boy, isn't this the perfect illustration of what Trump has been living off of for, by the way, 10 years. This month he went down the escalator, announced his candidacy. Ten years he's been talking about precisely these kinds of issues. And for him, it's a gift in his lap.
- [19:03]
Jonathan Lemire
It's immigration, which we talk about all the time on this show, is his, it's his reflex to go back to immigration when he feels like he needs to change the subject. But, Mika, it's also, this is a fight he's been spoiling for a long time. It is a he always needs a foil. California Governor Gavin Newsom's a good foil for this moment. It's a blue state. Newsom's a controversial figure to those on the right, this is a fight that he wants. And he's always been one to talk about deploying American troops on the streets of American cities. Let's remember it was June of 2020, right about five years ago, where he mused about the Insurrection act because the protests that followed the George Floyd murder, the gatherings at Lafayette park that he had dispersed with federal law enforcement. He even asked the Defense Department then if he could have federal troops shoot American protesters in the legs. That would be a way to end this. He was told no. Defense Secretary, ESP chair and Jones staff Milley said absolutely not. I don't think there's a lot of people in his orbit now, by design, who would tell him no.
- [20:06]
Joe Scarborough
All right. Still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to bring you the latest on the war in Ukraine as Russia launches a massive strike in Kyiv. Plus, as we mentioned, preparations are now underway for this weekend's army parade in Washington, D.C. we'll dig into those details. And a reminder, the Morning Joe podcast is available each weekday, featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching Morning Joe. We're back in 90 seconds.
- [20:48]
Jonathan Martin
MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.
- [20:52]
Mika Brzezinski
We've never experienced a moment like this.
- [20:54]
Jonathan Martin
In our country, and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we gonna speak out or are we gonna be pressured into silence?
- [20:59]
Mika Brzezinski
I've worked for presidents.
- [21:01]
Jonathan Martin
I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin.
- [21:04]
Mika Brzezinski
And if there's one thing I've learned.
- [21:06]
Jonathan Martin
It'S that you can't cower to bullies.
- [21:08]
Mika Brzezinski
You don't need to be hopeless.
- [21:09]
Jonathan Martin
We have our voices and I will continue using mine.
- [21:12]
Jonathan Lemire
The Briefing with Jen Psaki Tuesday through.
- [21:15]
Jonathan Martin
Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [21:18]
Mika Brzezinski
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Co host of the Bloomberg Odd Lots podcast, Joe Wiesenthal.
- [21:25]
Mark Hertling
There's the story of the real economy and then there's the story of the financial markets. But I also think there is this sort of distinct and maybe you could call it political, maybe you could call it geopolitical, I'm not sure. So there's other story which is just.
- [21:38]
Mika Brzezinski
About Trump the character as he tries.
- [21:41]
Mark Hertling
To negotiate in the world and establish himself right as the master negotiator, which.
- [21:46]
Mika Brzezinski
He seems to see himself as a deals person.
- [21:50]
Mark Hertling
That's this week on why Is this Happening?
- [21:52]
Mika Brzezinski
Search for why Is this Happening? We're listening right now and follow Seguru is making headlines this morning. The Japanese military says Chinese warships are venturing into new waterways amid a flurry of military exercises in the Pacific. A Chinese aircraft carrier and at least seven other Navy ships were operating east of Iwo Jima for the first time, according to the Wall Street Journal. The region is considered strategically vital in any potential conflict with the United States. A new study is tracking the impact of a 2010 decision by the Suprem that limited the ability of state and local governments to regulate firearms. The findings show. Gun deaths of children and teenagers rose significantly in states that enacted more permissive firearm laws, according to the New York Times. In states that maintained stricter laws. Firearm deaths were stable after the ruling and in some states even declined. And officials in Washington are stepping up security ahead of Saturday's celebration marking the founding of the United States Army 250 years ago. Thousands of people are expected to attend a massive military parade and festival along the National Mall. Battle tanks and fighting vehicles are being shipped to the nation's capital by the dozen. The event coincides with President Trump's 79th birthday on Saturday and will cost up to $45 million. Some streets around Washington will be closed for four days. General Hertling so Saturday is the 250th ann anniversary, the birthday of the United States Army. A day of course worthy of celebration. I remember your friend and ours, Jack Jacobs, Colonel Jacobs, the Medal of Honor recipient, saying we're not a tanks in the street country, saying that over the years in the past, but on Saturday we will be. How are you feeling about it?
- [23:41]
Mark Hertling
Well, the 250th Willie, for the audience is it's a critical event for the US Army. It's not only 250 units years, but that coincides with a year before our country was declared a nation. So our army is older than our country. It was originally the Continental Army. And I agree with Colonel Jacobs that I'm all for celebrating soldiers and there's going to be a lot of soldiers at this parade. I'm personally, truth be told, I'm not a parade kind of guy, to be honest with you, I hate parades even when I was a cadet at West Point. But this is an indication of mission creep foisted upon the army by I think by the, the politicians. Because what we're seeing is an event that was going to be static displays at the Mall, soldiers marching downtown town has now been turned into a very high profile event. And as you see as you're going over all those vehicles, you know Mike Barnacle asked before, how much is this going to cost? It's going to cost a lot. Not only are those vehicles used a lot, have they been transported from different military bases, but as you can see looking at those tanks and Bradleys that you're showing right now, now they've all been freshly painted. The last time a bunch of tanks were brought to Washington D.C. it was at a last minute time frame. And they look bad. I mean they were not a good reflection of the Army. So obviously the commanders and the soldiers who take a great deal of pride in their vehicles want them to be looking well and you know that's created more cost other than the train load and the railhead and the helicopters are going to be flying overhead and the, and the fuel that's going to be used and the support for the almost 8,000 soldiers that are going to be marching inside of that column with the other vehicles to represent wars that the nation has fought in in different period dress and uniforms. It was a good idea by the army to celebrate this and use it as a recruiting tool. It's just been generate, it's generated a lot more interest because of the connection with the President's birthday, that's for sure.
- [25:48]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah. Updated estimates on cost, 50, 60 million dollars, perhaps more than that because the streets of Washington likely going to need to be repaved and fixed because these tanks of course are so heavy. And we should, you know, certainly this comes, Mika, just days after, you know, we're amid what we're seeing in Los Angeles about American troops there. I think that's triggering for a lot of people and we reported on this last week. But, but it's worth repeating that the army is not the only branch of Service celebrating a 250th birthday this year. The Navy is doing so in October, the Marines in November. But neither of them are getting a parade in Washington, only the army, only because its birthday coincides with that of President Trump.
- [26:29]
Joe Scarborough
Well, we'll be following that. There's also the war in Ukraine. And overnight Ukrainian officials reported a massive attack by Moscow targeting the port city of Odessa and the capital Kyiv. These strikes follow followed what Ukraine described as the largest drone assault of the war so far, which occurred the day before. This morning, explosions rocked Kyiv, sparking fires in residential neighborhoods. Video footage from the city shows blasts lighting up the skyline. It's still unclear how many people have been injured in this latest wave of attacks. General Hertling, your comments, your thoughts on this war that the President said he could end so easily. It continues.
- [27:15]
Mark Hertling
Well, first, if you don't mind, Mika, I'd like to address the strikes because what you're seeing is Russia targeting the key population centers of Odessa, Kharkiv and Kyiv itself. Those are population centers with over 2 million people, three in the case of Odessa. At the same time, you're seeing Ukraine striking targets that are in the middle of nowhere but are strategically significant, like the airfields, the oil refinery refineries, the places that support the military. It's the difference between a criminal activity and a fact that one nation, Ukraine, is fighting for its survival. Hitting military targets. Yeah, it is a last ditch effort by the Russians. They know they're in bad shape, their economy is in very bad shape and they are trying to do a last ditch effort to perhaps set up the potential for gaining an advantage in a peace. I personally don't think they're going to get that. I think the will of the Ukrainian people is still strong. But again, I just come back to it's obvious what the Russians are targeting. They're targeting civilian infrastructure capital cities of different oblast in Ukraine, as well as the civilians that live in those cities, not the military.
- [28:32]
Mika Brzezinski
J Mart, you wrote a piece we talked about on the show yesterday for Politico magazine about some Republicans, Republican senators. There is a little caucus trying at least to push President Trump away or drive a wedge between him and Vladimir Putin, say, look what he's doing. If this is retaliation for the drone attack that was 18 months in the planning by the Ukrainians that took out planes, military planes, the retaliation is against civilian targets, as the general says. So what are, what's the case that these Republican senators are making to the president?
- [29:02]
Jonathan Martin
That we have to punish Putin and hold him accountable so that we can get him to the negotiating table with more leverage in the way you, that is, you basically drain his economy. And you do that by barring Russia from selling oil and gas to other countries. And that way you'll make Putin desperate for a peace deal and get him to give the best possible deal to the Ukrainians. One small problem. Trump doesn't want to take punitive steps toward Vladimir Putin. He just wants the war to end. And he really views both sides as equally culpable here. And you can tell him that it's civilians versus military targets until you're blue in the face, Willie. He just sees violence on both sides, and he'll say that over and over again with the German chancellor. Last week, he was asked about the sanctions bill and he actually floated the idea of taking steps against both sides if they don't come to the negotiating table. So I'm just skeptical that he's ever going to sign off on this bill. And frankly, I think ultimately it's going to come down to does John Thune want to bring up a bill that Donald Trump has not blessed? And the answer right now is almost certainly no.
- [30:06]
Joe Scarborough
All right. Retired U.S. army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you very much for your your analysis and insights this morning. We appreciate it. And coming up on MORNING Joe, health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Has removed every member of a vaccine advisory committee, saying that this will, quote, re establish public confidence in vaccine science. NBC News medical contributor Dr. Vin Gupta will join us with a look at the impact this decision could have on Americans. That's straight ahead on MORNING Joe.
- [30:55]
Jonathan Lemire
Introducing the Weeknight on msnbc, join hosts.
- [30:59]
Jonathan Martin
Alicia Menendez, Michael Steele and Simone Sanders Townsend for a spirit of conversation, challenging each other and our leaders about the biggest issues of the day.
- [31:08]
Joe Scarborough
It's about knowing what you are for.
- [31:10]
Mika Brzezinski
Who you are for. That's what politics is about it's engagement.
- [31:14]
Jonathan Martin
We are going to dive deeper into the legal side of today's breaking news.
- [31:18]
Jonathan Lemire
The weeknight Monday through Friday at 7pm.
- [31:21]
Joe Scarborough
Eastern on MSNBC 36 past the hour. Welcome back. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Is is dismissing all 17 members of the Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices. The panel acts as a key advisor to the cdc. It assesses the safety and clinical need for vaccines across the country. Insurance companies and government assistance programs are required to cover vaccines recommended by the panel. Secretary Kennedy announced the move in an opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal yesterday, saying this will restore restore public confidence as some of the members he is relieving of duty are Biden administration appointees. Officials say the panel will still meet as scheduled at the end of the month, but is unclear when the new members will be selected. Let's bring in NBC News medical contributor Dr. Vin Gupta. Dr. Gupta, I guess first of all, what might be the impact of this move? And, and was there any other reason that these people could have been dismissed except for the fact that they were appointed by Biden?
- [32:38]
Dr. Vin Gupta
Short answer is no. Mika, if it's still up, and it was up two minutes ago, I encourage all your viewers to Google acip, ACIP and the CDC and you'll go to the roster that's still live, unsurprised. It's live probably for the next few hours. And you can read the bios of the individuals currently on AP through June end of June. These are professors of infectious diseases like Dr. Helen Chu at the University of Washington. They're professors of epidemiology like Dr. Jane Zucker at SUNY Downstate, not far from you. And in no way there are conflicts. Kennedy in his piece at the Wall Street Journal said that there was conflicts of interest that somehow these individuals are in the pocket of pharma. That's not true that they have to submit very rigorous conflicts of interest forms that are scrutinized. They cannot hold stock and advisory committees, anything to do with vaccine manufacturers. So there is no relationship between any of these individuals and their credentials and a conflict of interest, number one. But to your point, what is this going to mean? I'm very close to the American Academy of Pediatrics and we just had a town hall in this conversation. In the wake of his announcements over the last few weeks, what does this rolling thunder set of announcements mean for public health? And it's pretty darn clear. No clinician likes the fact that he's doing what he's doing. He's doing exactly what he said he's been doing, well, he's doing exactly what he's done for the last 20 years, which is reducing confidence in vaccines. But no clinician wants a lack of transparency and a lack of clear guidelines that's not expert driven. And that's exactly what he's doing, number one. Number two, he also knows that insurance companies rely heavily, Medicaid relies heavily on what ACIP recommends. If ACIP says we need to get a flu booster or MMR every few years, they're going to have to cover it. It's actually statutory by law. So he knows what he's doing. He's actually undermining the very framework of how we get vaccines covered for the American people, including kids. And he's going right at the the.
- [34:46]
Mika Brzezinski
Of heart, as you say, Dr. Gupta. This was all advertised. We knew who Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Was, who he's been for the last several years, once a great conservationist environmentalist, now guided in his public life by vaccine skepticism. So you started to get at it. But just for even parents watching at home, what could change in their relationship with their doctor, with their pediatrician and vaccines if this board comes in, we expect Phil with fellow vaccine skeptics.
- [35:16]
Dr. Vin Gupta
Well, Willie, you know what I would say, number one is look at the doctors, so called doctors that he has surrounded himself with rfk. These are former doctors who once practiced medicine or doctors in name only who have never practiced the art of medicine at the bedside. And so why does that matter if you don't have somebody that understands the consequences of something fundamental like we're going to ruin the vaccine or the infrastructure for people to have access to vaccines. If you've never dealt with the consequences of caring for a patient, you're going to run roughshod, you're going to be, you're not going to have accountability. And so that's the phenotype that I worry he is going to surround himself with in government and these types of committees. Really, what does that mean? Fundamentally? He has this ASIP, a revised ACIP. He can now appoint all new 17 members. He doesn't have to wait till 2028, which was the original deadline that they had to wait till 2028. Now he can, can do it tomorrow if you wanted to in July. The worry here is that this committee is powerful enough to completely revise the vaccine schedule for children. And he can go on and say, or this new committee can say, you know what, we don't like the recommendations as they exist today. We're going to completely alter them. What does that mean for the everyday family? That means that once covered, vaccines by insurance companies may go away. Unfortunately, the that is part of the risk here. Willie, what I hope, and just to say, I hope insurance companies fundamentally rethink how they cover vaccines because they can no longer rely on ACIP or what the government says.
- [36:52]
Mika Brzezinski
So this clearing out of the vaccine committee by RFK Jr. Breaks a commitment he apparently made to Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana. Here's what Senator Cassidy said was promised back in February before RFK Jr. Was confirmed, followed then by the senator's response to reporters yesterday when asked whether he now regrets his vote.
- [37:14]
Mark Hertling
He has also committed that he had worked within current vaccine approval and safety monitoring systems and not established parallel systems. If confirmed, he will maintain the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices recommendations without changes.
- [37:33]
Dr. Vin Gupta
Do you do regret your vote on.
- [37:36]
Mark Hertling
Junior you know, you can refer to.
- [37:38]
Jonathan Lemire
Our tweet on that.
- [37:42]
Mark Hertling
I know you asked a different question.
- [37:43]
Donald Trump
But you're trying to get something similar and it's not going to come to that.
- [37:47]
Mika Brzezinski
So Senator Cassie directing reporters to this statement on social media where he wrote, of course, now the fear is that the ACIP will be filled up with people who know nothing about vaccines. Accept suspicion. I've just spoken with Secretary Kennedy and I'll continue to talk with him to ensure this is not the case. So jmar, that first clip we played with Senator Cassidy back on February 4, what a difference four months makes. He got this guarantee before locking up Senator Cassidy's vote from RFK Jr that he would not do what he apparently.
- [38:17]
Jonathan Martin
Is ready to do, which was the pivotal vote. We should tell folks, right. If it wasn't for Cassidy on the Finance Committee, he wouldn't have gotten confirmed.
- [38:24]
Mika Brzezinski
Cassidy's a doctor, by the way. We should remind people he is a physician.
- [38:28]
Jonathan Martin
And he was anguished over this vote. And I think it was very difficult. Classic challenge politics and principle colliding here, Willie. And he's facing a tough reelection and a deep red state. He already voted to impeach President Trump in 2021. And I think he came to realize he wouldn't have a chance if he torpedoed Kennedy for the Cabinet. And so he voted to confirm him. But before he did, he did get these assurances. But it turned out, turns out like so many of the Cabinet folks, those assurances weren't worth the paper that they were written on. And they were only offering those assurances to get through the confirmation process. And now once they're free and Once they're out of the purview of the Senate, they're going to do whatever they want to do. Just real fast on this, we're talking about the riots in la, which obviously terrible politics for Democrats. This is a reminder, though, that Trump giveth and Trump taketh away. Right? Trump will always do stuff and say stuff that is going to alienate people. So yes, it looks terrible for the have people on the streets of LA burning American flags, burning cars, but yet Trump has his top appointee get rid of this board of serious doctors to replace it with quacks. It's just a reminder that Trump will always do stuff to keep Democrats in the game somehow.
- [39:48]
Mike Barnicle
So, Dr. Gupta, how concerned or worried should parents and pediatricians be about the future access, availability and approval of vaccines that are critical to children's health as well as adults?
- [40:03]
Dr. Vin Gupta
Mike, they should be worried. And unfortunately, until we start to see a different way for insurance companies to think about a different framework, Mike, in terms of how they cover vaccines, new vaccines, boosters, because right now it is heavily dependent on what Kennedy is hollowing out. Acip, cdc, see FDA recommendations that he has complete control over. He has a lot of authority and power. He is exercising it irresponsibly. But until insurance companies say, you know what, we're going to think about this differently because by the way, prevention is cheaper. They think about the bottom line. Unfortunately, prevention is cheaper than caring for a child in the hospital. That's how they're going to think about it. And in this case, they need to be thinking about the benefits of prevention, a political view on evidence. And we need to have a framework here that has not existed in decades, which is them ignoring fundamentally what is coming out of hhs. Mike, unless we see that start to happen, and I suspect we will, if we do not see that start to happen, access is going to be significantly hampered.
- [41:08]
Joe Scarborough
All right. NBC News medical contributor Dr. Vin Gupta. Thank you very much for your insights this morning. We appreciate it. POLITICO's Jonathan Martin, thank you as well. Always good to see you. And straight ahead on MORNING joe, we're going to get a look at Time, Max magazine's new cover story and investigative piece on the Trump administration. Plus a look back at the life and legacy of musician Sly Stone. MORNING Joe will be right back.
- [41:59]
Donald Trump
RC7 and now the Panthers with a.
- [42:02]
Mike Barnicle
Two on moving in on Skinner Bennett.
- [42:07]
Mika Brzezinski
41 Florida Sam Bennett lays a big hit in the defensive zone to set up his NHL player leading 14th goal on a breakaway in the second period. Playing at home for the first time in this Stanley cup final. The Florida Panthers pummeled the Edmonton Oilers in game three last night. The blowout turned into a brawl midway through the third period. Eight players ejected. Like to see that in the Stanley cup, you don't always see it. Panthers go on to win the game six one now lead the series two games to one. The teams remain in South Florida for game four on Thursday night. In this week rematch Jonathan of last year's Stanley cup final.
- [42:43]
Jonathan Lemire
Florida Panthers. They're, they're big, they're physical, they're a little bit dirty. They are, they pride themselves in it. They drive me nuts. They have eliminated the Bruins a few times in the playoffs last couple years. They're so, so tough last night. Ex Bruin Brad Marchand, I will say fits in well with Florida. Other fans, fans of other teams find him annoying too. Scored a minute into the game, set the tone immediately. This one was when the oilers cut it to 2 1. Florida scored a minute later. 314151. They poured it on. So they're up 2 1. And if you're Edmonton, remember last year in this series, Edmonton fell behind three games to none, won three straight, but then lost game seven. They lose tomorrow night or this next game in Florida fall down 31 again. That is a very tough task.
- [43:26]
Mike Barnicle
First of all, I love the Panthers. I love the way they play. They're unrelenting and they do exactly what you're supposed to do in a critical playoff series like this for the Stanley Cup. They get the other team to play their game, the other team cannot play their game and thus the other team is on the losing end.
- [43:44]
Jonathan Lemire
They're very good at getting under the team's skin. I'm Rooting for Connor McDavid, the best player in the league to get a cup, but down 2:1.
- [43:50]
Mika Brzezinski
And a reminder, as we've discussed on this show, a Canadian team has not won the Stanley cup since 1993. Edmonton Oilers are the hope this year. Montreal Canadiens did it back. Then let's turn to Major League baseball. The long awaited debut for the game's top prospect at Fenway Park. The Boston crowd giving Roman Anthony a warm welcome welcome as the 21 year old outfielder walked out for his first big league at bat. He did go over four with a walk and an RBI ground out that came in the ninth inning last night. He cost the Red Sox in the fifth a bit, letting a single roll under his glove in right field for a two base error that led to an unearned run. Given the race, a 3 nothing lead. Tampa would go on to beat Boston 10 to 8 in 11 innings. A little bit of a shaky debut. That's okay, Mike. 21 year old phenom Boston fans, including those at this table, have been calling for him to be at Fenway for some time now.
- [44:41]
Mike Barnicle
Yeah, it was overdue his arrival at Fenway and his overdue his arrival in the roster. Batting fifth last night. He showed tremendous plate discipline for just 21 years of age. Just recently, 21 years of age. The line drive that he hit back to the pitcher went off the bat at 111 miles per hour. So he's got terrific bat speed. That would prove that he has terrific bat speed. He's going to be a really, really good major league baseball player.
- [45:06]
Mika Brzezinski
He just looks comfortable already. So smooth, John.
- [45:09]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, big guy, great command of the strike zone. Had the highest average exit velocity of anyone in professional baseball this year. As a player at aaa, hitting the ball harder consistently more than even major leaguers. Yeah, he didn't get hit last night. He's going to be fine. But it's also another heartbreaking late loss for this Red Sox team which has had a season full of far too many of them.
- [45:31]
Mika Brzezinski
Hoping he's a shot in the arm up in Boston. Let's go to the West Coast. The latest incredible catch by A's rookie Denzel Clark. Look at this. Clark scaling the wall in Anaheim last night. Half of his body over the wall, reaching over, robbing a home run in the first inning. That is just incredible. The climb is one thing, the reach is another. And to pull himself back to the right side of the wall. There he is.
- [45:57]
Jonathan Lemire
Look at that.
- [45:57]
Mika Brzezinski
Recording the out. That is amazing. The Angels though, did beat the A7 4.
- [46:02]
Mike Barnicle
You know, it's a reminder baseball is probably the sport most played by young kids when they're young and you play catch with your father and everything like that and you think he can play baseball. You forget the level of athleticism involved with some of these guys. That particular catch we just saw, that is amazing. Just the body language involved it. To be able to do that, just incredible.
- [46:26]
Mika Brzezinski
Sort of reminds me when Bo Jackson ran up the wall in the Yankees stadium. Meanwhile in St. Louis, an outfield blunder gave a home run to the Toronto Blue Jays last night. Cardinals Victor Scott trying to make a play on a ball head deep to center, bounces off his.
- [46:40]
Jonathan Martin
Oh, no.
- [46:41]
Mika Brzezinski
Oh, come on now. That's the opposite of what we just saw.
- [46:44]
Mike Barnicle
Touch them all from the A's.
- [46:45]
Mika Brzezinski
Bounces off his glove. That is a home run. Because it went over the wall. Solo home run. The Jays wanted to beat the Cars five to four. That got us old school baseball fans thinking about this moment in Cleveland. Jose Canseco playing a good seat, still available, playing for the Rangers. The ball bounces off his head, not his glove, bounces off his head, goes over the wall for a home run. Sorry, Jose, we had to cue that up and do it again.
- [47:12]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, not many fans in the park there in Cleveland that day. That's Jose Canseco. And I'm actually taking this moment. I saw a story in Bloomberg, Bloomberg yesterday. Baseball speaks to the health of the game. TV ratings up on every national channel up locally. Attendance up record highs. Baseball thriving right now. Despite all this talk about baseball, you know, fading away, thriving at the moment. The rule changes really helped. And this is another reason why, and you're going to hear us say this a lot over the next year, there's a labor issue coming, not, not the end of the season, but the end of next, that a lot of people are really worried about. If baseball goes away, if there's a strike or a lockout and their game's missed, that's going to really be damaging to the sport in a way it may not recover. They need to solve it now, build on this momentum.
- [47:51]
Mika Brzezinski
It's been a fun season, Mike. Great stars. The Cubs are good this year, the Tigers are good. You got some different teams popping up at the top of the divisions as well.
- [48:00]
Mike Barnicle
And thanks to Theo Epstein and Rob Manford, the commissioner of baseball, now you can go to a baseball game and be out of there within 2 hours and 45 minutes, rather than 4, 4, 15, things like that. You can get home before 10:30 at night after going to a game, God bless them.
- [48:14]
Mika Brzezinski
Or stay up with your kid and watch an entire game instead of having to send them to bed. That's a big deal.