Morning Joe extra: Graydon Carter

Summary

Morning Joe Extra: Graydon Carter - Detailed Summary

Episode Release Date: March 28, 2025

Hosts:

• Joe Scarborough
• Mika Brzezinski
• Willie Geist

Guest:

• Graydon Carter, Legendary Magazine Editor and Author of When the Going Was Good: An Editor's Adventures During the Last Golden Age of Magazines

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1. Introduction to Graydon Carter and His Memoir

The episode begins with the hosts introducing Graydon Carter, a towering figure in the magazine industry, known for his pivotal roles at Spy Magazine, the New York Observer, and most notably, Vanity Fair. Carter discusses his latest memoir, When the Going Was Good, which offers an inside look into his illustrious 25-year tenure at Vanity Fair and the broader magazine landscape during its golden age.

Notable Quote:

• Graydon Carter (01:05): “Our next guest is a titan… Graydon Carter is the former editor of Spy Magazine, the New York Observer, famously Vanity Fair, and he’s now chronicling his remarkable career in his new book.”

2. The Golden Age of Magazines

Carter reminisces about the golden era of magazines, spanning the late 1970s through the early 2000s. He attributes this period to the synergy of gifted editors, committed publishers, and intense competition, which collectively fostered an environment ripe for high-quality journalism and creative excellence.

Notable Insights:

• The competitiveness among top-tier magazines like Vanity Fair, The New Yorker, New York Magazine, and The Atlantic drove each publication to excel.
• Carter (03:04): “Magazines were really good then… It was a very competitive period. Like Hollywood’s golden ages… made it more enjoyable and less enjoyable because every morning you woke up and think the other people are going to do a lot better than you.”

3. Breaking the Deep Throat Story

One of the centerpiece stories discussed is Carter's breakthrough of the "Deep Throat" identity—a pivotal moment in journalism. Carter narrates the meticulous two-year investigation that culminated in identifying Mark Felt as the informant who helped uncover the Watergate scandal.

Key Details:

• Initial Lead (04:47): Carter received a call from a lawyer representing Mark Felt, initiating the investigation.
• Process: Involving his editor, David Friend, Carter worked diligently to verify the lead without premature disclosure.
• Challenges: Competing with established journalists like Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein posed significant risks.
• Outcome (07:05): Despite fears of being scooped, Vanity Fair successfully published the story, confirmed concurrently by Woodward and Bernstein.

Notable Quote:

• Graydon Carter (04:47): “We released the story this morning… Woodward and Bernstein just confirmed it.”

4. Reflections on Magazine Publishing Challenges

Carter delves into the logistical hurdles of magazine publishing, especially during the pre-digital era. He highlights the extended lead times necessary for editing, photographing, laying out, printing, and distributing a monthly magazine—processes that could take several weeks and were vulnerable to leaks and competitive pressures.

Notable Insights:

• Process Complexity (08:42): “We had to edit the story, photograph the story, lay out the story, check the story, print the issue, ship the issue… With a monthly magazine, you have 10 to 12 days to two weeks.”
• Comparison to Digital Age: A stark contrast to today's instantaneous news cycles, emphasizing the heightened risk and anticipation involved in magazine publishing.

5. The 1980s Magazine World and Industry Dynamics

Carter reflects on the 1980s magazine scene, a time marked by significant growth and prestige for publications. He credits influential figures like Signuhaus (likely a reference to a prominent publisher) for fostering an environment that attracted top-tier talent and enabled magazines like Architectural Digest and GQ to ascend to first-tier status.

Notable Quote:

• Graydon Carter (09:30): “He [Signuhaus] loved editors, he loved writers and photographers… spent a great deal…and wanted to make his magazines the best.”

6. Career Insights and Editorial Philosophy

Discussing his editorial approach, Carter emphasizes the importance of surrounding oneself with exceptional writers. He contrasts the editor's role with that of writers, highlighting that great editors enable writers to produce their best work by providing a supportive and resource-rich environment.

Notable Quote:

• Graydon Carter (13:36): “Surrounding yourself with the best writers you can find makes your job a lot easier… Great… They're already edited by senior editors. It’s almost a masterpiece.”

7. Current Views and Future of Magazines

Addressing concerns about the future of journalism and magazines, Carter remains cautiously optimistic. He acknowledges the challenges posed by digital media and financial constraints but believes that esteemed publications like The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and The Economist still hold significant value. His hope is that with proper investment and a focus on unique, in-depth storytelling, magazines can reclaim a central role in public discourse.

Notable Quote:

• Graydon Carter (15:43): “If you invest in magazines… they can come back and be a big part of the conversation as they are this week.”

8. The Impact of Canadian Heritage on Leadership

In a personal anecdote, Carter discusses how his Canadian upbringing influenced his leadership style. Contrary to perceptions of politeness being a weakness, he attributes his resilience and strength to experiences like playing hockey in harsh conditions, fostering an inner toughness that underpins his professional demeanor.

Notable Quote:

• Graydon Carter (16:49): “Canadians seem… very affable on the outside, but they’re very strong on the inside, partly because of the climate of their ancestors who settled the country.”

9. Closing Remarks

The episode concludes with the hosts praising Carter's contributions to journalism and publishing. They express admiration for his memoir and express a desire to engage in future conversations, recognizing the depth and breadth of his experiences and insights.

Final Note:

• Interviewer (17:56): “The new book When the Going Was Good and Editor’s Adventures During the Last Golden Age of Magazines. It’s on sale right now. Author and legendary editor Graydon Carter. Thank you very much for coming in. It’s so good to see you.”

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Summary: In this engaging episode of Morning Joe, Graydon Carter offers an in-depth exploration of his illustrious career in magazine publishing, from the zenith of print media's influence to the transformative challenges posed by the digital age. Through anecdotes like the groundbreaking Deep Throat story and reflections on the collaborative spirit of the 1980s magazine world, Carter provides valuable insights into the art of editing and the evolving landscape of journalism. His memoir serves as both a testament to a bygone era and a hopeful look toward the future of thoughtful, high-caliber magazine publishing.

Transcript

[Graydon Carter]

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[Interviewer]

This week we sat down with legendary magazine editor Graydon Carter to talk about his new memoir, when the Going Was Good. From the early days at spy to his 25 year run at Vanity Fair, Graydon gave us an inside look at his incredible career and the many lessons that he picked up along the way. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as we did.

Our next guest is a titan, a titan of the public fiction industry, helping shape the modern magazine landscape from his perch as one of the most successful editors in history. Graydon Carter is the former editor of Spring Spy magazine, the New York Observer. I'm in the front seat, famously, Vanity Fair. He's out now with a new book chronicling his remarkable career. It's entitled when the Going Was Good, An Editor's Adventures during the Last golden age of Magazines. And Graydon Carter joins us now. He's also the founder and co editor of the digital weekly newsletter Air Mail, which I love. And the photography.

[Graydon Carter]

Incredible.

[Interviewer]

And most importantly, of course, everything about it. And Kurt Anderson, because, I mean, you had everybody in the world to think you could just start a magazine, Lampoon. New Yorkers started Spy magazine.

[Graydon Carter]

Yeah, we were young enough to not worry about the bridges we were burning. And funny, I saw him last night and yes, yeah, yeah, he looks exactly the same as he did then. Yeah, I look like Barbara Bush on the other.

[Interviewer]

Oh, no, you are, you are just.

[Graydon Carter]

As suave as always for your English readers. BARBARA Cartland. Well, viewer.

[Interviewer]

Well, listen, we are, we are just a massive fan, as you know, and I always have. And why don't we start by talking about just the golden, the golden age of magazines. Of course, you got here in the 70s, 80s. It really was a golden age. But you know, you're at Vanity Fair, Tina's at the New Yorker, got Adam Moss at New York magazine for a very short while, you know, Michael Kelly at the Atlantic. I could just go on and on. It was for a guy from you know, the redneck Riviera. I would just go past newsstands who just stop and stare and say, this is just extraordinary. Talk about.

[Graydon Carter]

Well, it was an amazing era. I think I would call the golden era. Say the late 70s, the 80s, the 90s, and the aughts until the Internet and the recession sort of ate everything up. But one reason why it was a golden era is because magazines were really good then and you had gifted editors, you had committed publishers. And because magazines were doing well, they attracted all the talent that then eventually went off to the Internet. And it was a very competitive period. And I think out of that you get a golden age. Like if you look at Hollywood's golden ages, when Paramount and MGM and Columbia were all doing really well and competing against each other. And that made sort of made it more enjoyable and less enjoyable because every morning you woke up and think the other people are going to do a lot better than you.

[Interviewer]

And it was that creative friction that, yeah, just made everybody so much better than.

[Graydon Carter]

A lot of our competition was weekly. We were, you know, lumbering monthly. So that made it even tougher.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, and we'll get to that in a second. About the. About the Deep Throat breaking that story. But the book opens. It really is. It is a scene out of a movie. You're having this beautiful Episcopal wedding, Episcopalian wedding in Connecticut, men in kilts. I mean, you got Otis Day in the night singing at your reception, of course, France in your front seat when you're wanting to go to, you know, the hotel. But that's another story. You've got IRA anthems being played, which you found out later. But in the middle of all of this great drama, because you were about to break one of the big media stories of the last 20 years. Tell us about it.

[Graydon Carter]

Well, it started two years earlier, and I'd gotten a call from a lawyer who said that he represented the man who was Deep Throat then still one of the great mysteries of journalism and politics. And I talked to him for a while and I used to take any phone call from anybody just in case there was a lead in something. So I brought in one of my editors, David Friend, and he. I said, why don't you spend some time with him and we'll check this out. So this goes on for two years. And after about six months, we had a name and it was Mark Felt. I didn't know who it was. But then as we got closer, Mark Feld was suffering from dementia a bit, and he was in his 90s. And so as it Got closer and closer. We did everything we could to secure this. We got it about 95% correct. I couldn't call Carl Bernstein at the Washington Post because he would call Bob Woodward immediately, and they'd get it in the paper. And I couldn't call Bob for the same reason. So we went to. I went on my honeymoon. I closed the story, went on my honeymoon, got married, and went on my honeymoon. And then. So we were in the lounge after 10 days of being on the honeymoon, and I got a. I didn't have a cell phone in those days, and my wife had an old flip phone. And she said, there's a phone call. She said, david Friend. And I said, take it. And he said, we released the story this morning. I said, oh, my God, I completely forgot that. And I said, has there been any announcement from Woodward and Bernstein? Because the only people who we were waiting for to. To see if we were correct. And I was terrified about being wrong at the time.

[Interviewer]

You said, if you get it right, this is huge. If you get it wrong, this is the Hitler Diaries. This is the first line in your obituary.

[Graydon Carter]

So we kept moving to the back of the line as they're trying to board the plane, and my wife's phone's going dead. I know this all sounds like corny and stuff, but just as we were about to get on the plane, she gets a call. And I talked to David Friend, and he said, woodburn Bernstein just confirmed it. And what had happened was that Ben Bradlee had pulled together a. Pulled together Bob, Len Downey, and Bob and Carl Bernstein into a room and said, look, you guys have to give it up. They've got it on you. And so they did.

[Interviewer]

There's some debating, and it was on.

[Graydon Carter]

The front of the news page of every paper in the world.

[Interviewer]

Didn't put his foot down and said, this is nonsense. Print the damn thing. And so. So it's print. We just got to say, just as a side note, because we certainly didn't know her as well as you, but we just love Nora Ephron so much and her loss. You just. Every day, you just. It still hurts that Nora Ephron's not here, but. And when I read it last night, I started laughing and I said, nora Ephron lives. Carl probably spilled the beans 100%, Nora, because her character and burn about the man who cheats on her. Mark Feldman.

[Graydon Carter]

Mark Feldman.

[Interviewer]

She called him Mark Feldman.

[Graydon Carter]

Yeah. She knew. She. You know, she kept the secret.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah. So. So, Willie, I want to. I want to again, just for people that wake up news breaks, they see it on their phones two seconds later. Just want to take people back to what Grade and other, other editors and publishers had to worry about during the time. You, you have the story of the decade. Right. But Graden writes the big trouble here was the lead time. This is before magazines had digital editions. So we had to edit the story, photograph the story, lay out the story, check the story, print the issue, ship the issue, and then wait for the newsstand people all around the world to open their boxes of the magazine and start selling copies. With a monthly magazine, you have 10 to 12 days to two weeks.

Wow.

The time when it's at the printer and it's on newsstands. During this time, the issue is completely out of control. And we'd had problems before with printers tipping off someone else on the hot story. To make matters worse, they got word that the Washington Post knew they were sniffing around on this story.

[Guest]

Yeah, SCOOPS now take 10 minutes to wait a couple of weeks to get it for the magazine to come out. So Graydon, just bigger picture. This is extraordinary book. Take us back, if you will, to the 1980s, the magazine world. I mean, you're talking reading about the expense accounts you had in these days of diminished legacy media. I think it's fair to say what it was like in that sort of bonfire of the vanities era. New York City, the magazine industry.

[Graydon Carter]

Well, it's funny, one of the people we all admired was your dad back then. He was the great stylist at the New York Times. So thank you. I was always disappointed when he went to Sunday Morning because I love seeing his work in print. So. No, and then it was, you know, it attracted a lot of great talent. And because Signuhaus was the greatest proprietor, because he loved editors, he loved writers and photographers and he loved what he made. So he spent a great deal. But it wasn't like just throwing money out the window. He wanted to make his magazines the best, and he did. He took Connie and nash from the third tier publisher in the 1970s to the first tier publisher by the end of the 1980s, both through buying magazines like Architectural Digest and GQ and by buying the New Yorker and by relaunching Vanity Fair. But it meant he attracted great people. But then he left them alone. He gave them all the tools to succeed and left them alone. And the expenses were extreme to say the least. But, you know, and you know, that's gone forever, I suppose. But it maybe was only I don't think other magazine companies were treated this. The employees were treated this way. Just size employees.

[Interviewer]

All right, we're back with publishing icon Grey and Carter, his new memoir, When Going Was Good, and Editors adventures during the last golden age of magazines. I just love the quote that. That you give to your kids, and it is so true. You said a worthwhile profession is built over a boneyard of failures. And. And the first part of your book, you talk about all the things you were doing, including being a lineman for the county, as Jimmy Webb might say, if only.

[Graydon Carter]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And. And we're called Professor. But. But there was a moment, and there were a lot of setbacks for you when you got to New York. You said my resume was now seemingly one failure after another. Aside from Tom at the Paris Metro, who I'd met once, I knew nobody in the magazine business outside of Canada. But then somebody said, hey, you should go to the Sarah Lawrence program. And I just love the pull of New York City on you. This kid from Canada. And you write. As I lay in bed that first night, I was almost feverish in the knowledge that less than 20 miles south, Manhattan and everything it had to offer was humming in all its glory and promise. You're Fitzgerald. I mean, beautifully. No, but it does. It is that promise of Manhattan for you. Talk about that.

[Graydon Carter]

Well, I mean, it is. I mean, my whole life was reading magazines and books largely centered around New York, and it just figured large in my life. I never thought of moving to Los Angeles or London or Paris. It was just a gravitational pull to New York because everything I was interested in was here in, you know, theater, books and magazines. And there you're going to go ahead. Okay. And so when I had the opportunity to come here, just even being up in Bronxville, where Sarah Lawrence was, it was in Manhattan. Even though if you actually, you're not in Manhattan, once you've been in Manhattan for a while, you realize Bronxville is not.

[Interviewer]

Bronxville is definitely not Manhattan.

[Graydon Carter]

But it was in New York State, and I was 20 miles away from New York, and that was enough for me.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Guest]

You know, the reflections on your life contained in this book are kind of a gift to anyone who is interested in print and in writers and in great editors. We mentioned Bob McFadden, Bill Geist, Nora Ephron, Ben Bradley, Maureen, Maureen, Maureen. It's always what you have on the page, though, the successful product. Always. I won't ask you to, you know, name the four or five most memorable pieces in your career.

[Graydon Carter]

No, I can't do that. My memory's not good. Good Enough for one thing.

[Guest]

But the daily, the daily push towards excellence, where did that come from?

[Graydon Carter]

Well, you know, first of all, I recognize the fact that the editor's job is a lot easier than the writers. And I managed to both, once we got started from Spy magazine through the Vanity Fair and the New York observer to airmail. Surrounding yourself with the best writers you can find makes your job a lot easier. An editor never has to look at a blank page. Writer does and never doesn't even have to leave his office. I mean, you know, editors are wage apes. They're sort of chained to a desk, by and large. But reporters go out and see the world and bring back stories. And at Vanity Fair, we would have stories of 10,000 to 20,000 words. It would take months and months to assemble. And the whole time you were terrified that another magazine would come out and break it first and do it better. But these writers would do these sort of epic stories. And so by the time they came to me, they were already edited by senior editors. It would be sort of almost a masterpiece. So I was very far. I was at the tail end of the process. I got the things started, but then at the tail end and other people did all the heavy lifting in between. So great.

[Interviewer]

And obviously part of the title here.

[Kurt Anderson]

Is the last golden age of magazines.

[Graydon Carter]

What are your thoughts now, your hopes.

[Kurt Anderson]

About or worries about journalism, magazines in particular, at a time when that kind of reporting in journalism is just so important?

[Graydon Carter]

Well, I mean, first of all, in this week when Jeff Goldberg ran the entire news cycle as the editor of a more than a century old magazine, the Atlantic magazines still have their place. And I look at magazines like the New Yorker and Atlantic and New York Magazine and the Economist and you would never know there was a recession ever, or that the magazine business had been eaten. I think if you invest in magazines and companies invest in magazines and do them in a certain way and properly and give them something you won't find on the Internet, which are stories, they can resume their place never the way it was and probably never with the financial backing the way it was. But they can, they can come back and be a big part of the conversation as they are this week.

[Interviewer]

You know, there's so much that, that we still would love to talk to you about that we don't have time now. I hope we'll get the opportunity. We'll track you down somewhere in New York and interview you here, if that's okay. I do want to finish, though, with an interview that you gave recently and someone who'd worked for you. I don't know if they were a writer or. But. But his, his insight was that because you were Canadian and you tried to be polite, his insight was that like all Canadians are, most Canadians, your politeness is mistaken, mistook for weakness. And he said that you had to get rid of a lot of toxic people when you first got inside of Vanity Fair because they took you as a pushover. Big mistake. And you sort of generalized that out to the Canadian character in general. Talk about that if you want.

[Graydon Carter]

Well, I mean, if you grew up playing hockey in minus 30 degree weather on an outdoor rink when you're like 7 years old, and you do that, you know, through your end, through your teens, that builds up a certain inner strength. It's brutal. And skiing in that sort of temperature. And this is the days before fleece or, you know, puffer jackets. And I think that Canadians seem, you know, they're very affable on the outside, but they're very strong on the inside, partly because of the climate of their ancestors who settled the country. And I think Trump would be wise to realized this before he makes any further advances. And Mark Carney is a great candidate for the prime ministership, and I hope he gets in because he's used to handling people like Trump, and I think he'll do that with grace and elegance. And Trump won't know would hit him.

[Interviewer]

All right. The new book when the Going Was Good and Editor's Adventures during the Last Golden Age of Magazines. It's on sale right now. Author and legendary editor Graydon Carter. Thank you very much for coming in. It's so good to see you.

[Graydon Carter]

Thank you.

[Interviewer]

Wonderful.

[Kurt Anderson]

Explore the world's hidden wonders on the Atlas Obscura podcast. A village in India where everyone's name is a song. A boiling river in the Amazon. A spacecraft cemetery in the middle of the ocean. Every day, the Atlas Obscura podcast will blow your mind in 15 minutes. You can find it on the SiriusXM app Pandora, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.