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New details about suspect in murder of Charlie Kirk
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New details about suspect in murder of Charlie Kirk
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- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
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- [00:40]
Mika Brzezinski
I need a coffee.
- [00:42]
Joe Scarborough
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- [01:07]
Jennifer Palmieri
Good.
- [01:08]
Willie Geist
Morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Tuesday, September 16th. We have a lot to get to this morning, including new reporting on the man accused of killing Charlie Kirk and what he said online after the political activist was murdered. It comes as the suspect is set to make his first appearance today. We'll learn a lot more about him for sure. Meanwhile, FBI Director Kash Patel will face lawmakers on Capitol Hill later this morning. We'll preview what to expect from that hearing. Plus we'll dig into President Trump's latest lawsuit against the media. This time he is accusing the New York Times of defamation and libel. And we'll look ahead to President Trump's second state visit in the UK as he and the first lady are expected to arrive tonight at Windsor Castle. With us, we have New York Times opinion columnist David French and former White House Director of Communications to President Obama, Jennifer Palmieri. Good to have you both with us this morning. We'll dive right in. The suspect in the murder of conservative political activist Charlie Kirk is set to make his first appearance in court later today. The 22 year old suspect will likely be indicted on first degree murder charges in according to Attorney General Pam Bondi, who also said the Department of Justice is looking into federal charges as well. This comes as the Washington Post reports that the suspect appeared to confess to the shooting in an online group chat, writing hey guys, I have bad news for you all. It was me at UVU yesterday. I'm sorry for all of this. That according to two people familiar with the message, along with screenshots obtained by the Post, FBI Director Kash Patel also provided new details about the alleged shooter yesterday on FOX News.
- [03:09]
Ryan Reilly
And what we learned was there was evidence, DNA evidence that could be collected and had been collected, including a screwdriver that was found on the rooftop. Also, we went over to the scene in the wooded area where the firearm was discarded and the firearm had a towel wrapped around it. I can report today that the DNA hits from the towel that was wrapped around the firearm arm and the DNA on the screwdriver are positively processed for the suspect in custody, I will say what was found in terms of information, a text message exchange where he, the suspect specifically stated that he had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and he was going to do that. And when he was asked why, he said some hatred cannot be negotiated with. In order to properly adjudicate this matter and let law enforcement hand off information into evidence for a court of law for prosecution, we have to go out and get search warrants. We have to go out and get search warrants of the identifiers that were then built off of the prior search warrants. And we are doing that. And we are going to be interviewing scores of people on not just these chats on Discord, but any communications that this individual have. We've seized multiple electronic devices from the home of the suspect and his romantic partner. We've got computers, we've got laptops, we've got gaming systems. We've got cell phones.
- [04:23]
David French
For more on the suspect, let's bring in NBC News justice reporter Ryan Reilly. Ryan, good morning. So obviously everything that Director Patel said right there is hinting at or suggesting mot at least trying to get to a specific motive. We obviously have the explicit anti fascist message on some of the bullet casings. No political affiliation, no party ID in terms of being a registered voter. But what else do we know about this alleged shooter now a few days on?
- [04:53]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, I mean, the information is still coming in. I think the question is how Kash Patel's public comments are going to affect this prosecution down the line. Yesterday I spoke with the individual who was the foremost expert on domestic terrorism at the Justice Department. He was, he was domestic terrorism counsel for DOJ and said that this was in fact based on the public information. We have an act of domestic terrorism, but there is no statute on the federal level for domestic terrorism. So most likely this is this case will probably unfold in state court. There's not right now a clear federal nexus for how this case would proceed on the federal level. And these public comments that Kash Patel has been making on Fox News could complicate matters down the line, in addition to the fact that, you know, he was obviously a close friend of Charlie Kirk. And that's just going to sort of give material, I think, for the defense attorneys to look at down the line. And so, you know, now that this individual is in custody, the most important thing, and usually the focus of law enforcement is on securing a conviction in court rather than necessarily in the media. And we've seen just a departure from, from that process with these public comments and sort of updating on every sort of step of the process as we go along. Normally, these sort of things unfold in court and are not announced by the director of the FBI in such a public matter. But obviously, Catherine tells him, facing intense criticism over not only his handling of this matter, but overall his handling of the FBI at this critical moment in American history, really.
- [06:29]
David French
And as we said, the alleged shooter expected to be indicted on first degree murder today. That's a state charge. Attorney General Bondi has suggested, as you mentioned, bringing up federal charges as well. Let's talk about that hearing today. Just a couple of hours from now, Senate Judiciary Committee Director Patel will be in front of that bipartisan committee. What do you expect to hear in that room?
- [06:51]
Jonathan Lemire
I think there's going to be a lot of criticism and questions for Patel. You know, just on the day that this was that that horrific murder took place. And then you had a lawsuit that was filed by these three individuals who were fired by the FBI, apparently at the behest of the White House. And with comments of Patel allegedly saying that he had to carry out these, these personnel actions in order to keep his own job because of all of the pressure that he was facing from the White House. And you've just seen this massive overturn within the bureau since the beginning of the second Trump presidency that is been a brain drain on the organization and taken some of the foremost experts on these matters off the playing field. Then normally when you have an event like this, when you have what is appears to be an act of domestic terrorism like this, you would be able to rely on that wealth of experience that you have from within the bureau. But people with the most experience in domestic terrorism, that is the attack on the Capitol on January 6, are now no, are now either no longer at the bureau or have been pushed down to other positions or are just feeling this immense pressure. The FBI took a massive retreat from domestic terrorism since the beginning of the administration because they thought there was too much focus on the radical right. And now you're in A position where all these resources have been surged towards immigration or other priorities of the president and not necessarily the traditional focus of the FBI. Willie.
- [08:29]
David French
And you hear explicitly yesterday. We'll get into this in a minute. From the top of the administration. They are now going to go after what they view as left leaning groups as well, NBC's Ryan Reilly. Ryan, thanks so much, Mika.
- [08:41]
Willie Geist
President Trump ramped up his rhetoric against what he calls the radical left yesterday when he was asked if the alleged shooter worked alone.
- [08:53]
Joe Scarborough
I don't know. I mean, I can tell you he didn't work alone on the Internet because it seems that he became radicalized on the Internet. That's just by watching what same things that you're watching and hearing. It looks like he became radicalized over the Internet and it seems like his wonderful parents brought in a wonderful neighborhood, smart guy, great boards, great marks, great student, and then something happened to him over a fairly short period of time. Looks like he was radicalized over the Internet and it's radicalized on the left. He's a left. A lot of problems with the left and they get protected and they shouldn't be protected.
- [09:34]
Willie Geist
Meanwhile, Vice President J.D. vance guest hosted a special episode of the Charlie Kirk show yesterday. The Vice President was joined by a lineup of high ranking Trump administration officials, including Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller. Vance argued that the left was largely to blame for political violence, while Miller vowed vengeance in the wake of Kirk's murder.
- [10:00]
Joe Scarborough
People on the left are much likelier to defend and celebrate political violence. This is not a both sides problem. If both sides have a problem, one side has a much bigger and malignant problem. And that is the truth we must be. And while our side of the aisle certainly has its crazies, it is a statistical fact that most of the lunatics in American politics today are proud members of the far left. We can thank God that most Democrats.
- [10:30]
David French
Don'T share these attitudes, and I do.
- [10:33]
Joe Scarborough
While acknowledging that something has gone very wrong with a lunatic fringe. A minority, but a growing and powerful minority on the far left. So when you see someone celebrating Charlie's murder, call them out in hell. Call their employer. We don't believe in political violence, but we do believe in civility. And there is no civility in the celebration of political assassination.
- [10:59]
Jonathan Lemire
We are going to channel all of the anger that we have over the organized campaign that led to this assassination to uproot and dismantle these terrorist networks, the organized doxing campaigns, the organized riots, the organized street violence, the organized campaigns of dehumanization, vilification, Posting people's addresses, combining that with messaging that's designed to trigger, incite violence and the actual organized cells that carry out and facilitate the violence. It is a vast domestic terror movement. With God as my witness, we are going to use every resource we have at the Department of Justice, Homeland Security and throughout this government to identify, disrupt, dismantle and destroy these networks and make America safe again for the American people. It will happen, and we will do it in Charlie's name.
- [11:44]
Joe Scarborough
More on this in just a moment.
- [11:47]
Willie Geist
President Trump was also asked yesterday about the appearance of a double standard on lowering flags after political violence. Here is that exchange. In retrospect, given all of the moving.
- [12:01]
Ryan Reilly
Ways that this White House has paid.
- [12:03]
Jennifer Palmieri
Tribute to Charlie Kerr, do you think.
- [12:06]
Joe Scarborough
It would have been fitting to lower.
- [12:08]
Willie Geist
The flags, to have staff when Melissa.
- [12:10]
Joe Scarborough
Hortman, the Minnesota House speaker, was gu. Gunned down by an assassin as well? I'm not familiar the Minnesota House speaker.
- [12:19]
Willie Geist
A Democrat, was assassinated this summer.
- [12:23]
Joe Scarborough
Well, if the governor had asked me to do that, I would have done that. But the governor of Minnesota didn't ask me. I didn't. I wouldn't have thought of that, but I would have if somebody had asked me. People make requests for the lowering of flag and oftentimes you have to say no because it would be a lot of lowering. The flag would never be up. Had the governor of Minnesota asked me to do that, I would have done that gladly. Actually, days after the President said he wouldn't even call the governor of Minnesota, so why would he call Tim Waltz? I really don't know where to begin. I really don't know where to begin. Charlie Kirk's savage murder is violence not only against Charlie Kirk, against his wife, against their beautiful children. There's also violence against the First Amendment, against free speech, and against American democracy. Those who would use that tragic event to try to stifle free speech, which we will get to later, talking about stifling free speech and going after people they consider to be political enemies, certainly didn't hear much of what Charlie Kirk had to say when he said we have to allow all kinds of speech. And I must say I have been baffled over the past several days by people like Stephen Miller talking about this being a one sided issue when just a few months ago the most powerful Democrat in the state of Minnesota was gunned down in her family's home. And after she was shot to death in her family's home this June, her husband was gunned down and killed in their family home. Melissa was an elected leader and the Leader of the Democratic Party, the Democratic Caucus and the Minnesota House. She taught Sunday school. She and her husband left two young children gunned down in their own home. So who is Melissa Hortman? That's who Melissa Hortman was. And it's again baffling to me that the same people who were calling for civil war were the same people who said absolutely nothing when she was shot. Or maybe we should talk that same night about the madman who had a hit list of 42 Democrats on it, who then went over and shot nine times. The state senator that Melissa Hortman worked with, John Hoffman, took nine shots to his body. His wife Yvette took eight shots to her body inside their family home. And then the gunman escaped with again, a hit list with 42 other Democratic names on it, including Tammy Baldwin's, the state Senator, or the United States Senator from Wisconsin. This followed Josh Shapiro having his home an attempted arson, trying to burn down his home with his wife and his children sleeping inside of it. His goal, he admitted, was to burn the house down, find the Democratic governor of the state of Pennsylvania, and then beat him to death with a hammer. This, of course, reminds us of the madman that broke into Nancy Pelosi's home screaming, where's Nancy? A chant eerily reminiscent of what we heard on January 6, the day that everyone who is talking about civil war would like you to forget forever. But that madman goes in and critically wounds Paul Pelosi, I believe an 82 year old man who will never be the same, who just barely survived death. And these same people who are saying, JD Van saying, oh, our side doesn't celebrate this, our side doesn't celebrate that. Well, first of all, let me just say anybody who celebrates political violence is sick. They are sick. Sick. Those who try to brush aside political violence when it's the other side that gets shot or gets beaten or gets burned out of their family homes, they're sick. What did we hear after Paul Pelosi, an 82 year old man get brutalized and hit in the head with. What did we hear? We heard laughter. We heard jokes repeatedly from the President of the United States. I remember watching him speak to the California Republican Party and they died laughing. They thought it was hysterical that an 82 year old man was almost beaten to death in his own home by a hammer. Now, I know you, like me, were horrified when we heard that happen. I know you, like me, were horrified when you heard that Steve Scalise and others were gunned down while they were practicing baseball for the Congressional baseball game by a left wing freak. A left wing madman. I know that. Just like you froze when you heard that a right wing madman gone down. Melissa Hortman, who is Melissa Hortman? That's who Melissa Hortman was. And how you can sit back sanctimoniously and say that this is a civil war and it's all one side. When we see the pain and the agony visited upon families and children of Charlie Kirk of the Hortmans, of the Pelosi's. Oh, no, no, no, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do. You're saying, oh, they deserved it. Some of you are saying, oh, they deserved it. They're Democrats. Don't do that. Don't do that. They're all Americans. They're all Americans. They're all precious in God's eyes. And the attack against them must be condemned as strongly as possible. What we did here when it happened to Charlie, what we did here when it happened to Melissa, what we did here when it happened to Paul, what we did when it happened to Steve, what we will do if violence continues, and let us pray it does not continue, but to use Charlie Kirk's death, or if Democrats tried to use Melissa Hortman's death, leaders. I'm talking about elected leaders, not freaks on the outer fringes of social media. It's just despicable. It's just absolutely despicable. I don't know who you think you're lying to, but we know there's a problem on both sides. We have to come together or this will continue. And Willie, there's even talk about going after, quote, hate speech. I love for hate speech to be muted. I'd love for people to speak more civilly, but as conservatives brought up last night, it was Charlie Kirk who said we have to let everybody speak and we have to debate it out and it is going to get rough. It is going to be a rough and tumble to politics. But my God, the fact that these people are pretending that this is just a problem of the freaks on the left and not the freaks on the right, it's disgusting. And it's disgusting because there's. Oh, we're going after George Soros. Oh, we're going to go after left wing organizations. Really? Well, what right wing organizations do they go after? When Melissa and her husband were shot to death and their two children were left as orphans, I didn't hear it then. It's just, it's. This is the assassination of Charlie Kirk. It's an unspeakable tragedy that's rocked so many people in this country. But I would say this is not the time to try to use that death to gain political points. And that's what I've been seeing from far too many people on cable news channels and out of politicians in Washington, D.C. leaders.
- [23:04]
David French
Yeah. And it's not just media personalities, as you say, the Vice President of the United States yesterday. The sad reality of our political culture now is the minute this awful tragedy happened last Wednesday that turned our stomachs the minute we heard the news, and, God, after we saw the video, made it even worse for most decent Americans, not the freaks on the margins that some celebrated. But the sad reality is that people waited to hear about the shooter and in some circles were hoping it was someone from the other side so they could advance a political argument about why this happened. And now we're seeing that right now. You mentioned the question of free speech. The Attorney General of the United States, Pam Bondi, said yesterday the government will crack down now on comments it considers to be hate speech. This is what she said on a podcast hosted by Katie Miller, who was married to Trump's top deputy, Stephen Miller.
- [24:00]
Willie Geist
There's free speech and then there's hate speech. And there is no place, especially now, especially after what happened to Charlie, in our society. Do you see more law enforcement going after these groups who are using hate speech and putting cuffs on people?
- [24:17]
Joe Scarborough
So we show them that some action.
- [24:19]
Willie Geist
Is better than no action. We will absolutely target you, go after you if you are targeting anyone with hate speech, anything. And that's across the aisle.
- [24:31]
David French
Many conservatives criticizing those comments yesterday, Eric Erickson wrote bluntly, our Attorney General is apparently a moron. There's free speech and then there is hate speech. No, ma', am, that is not the law. Tim Carney wrote, bondi needs to correct herself and reaffirm her department's dedication to free speech. Others pointed to comments by Charlie Kirk himself, who tweeted last year, hate speech does not exist legally in America. There's ugly speech, there's gross speech, there's evil speech, and all of it is protected by the First Amendment. Keep America free.
- [25:08]
Joe Scarborough
I was wondering if you could talk about where you draw the line with free speech, hate speech and slander. It's a terrific question. My position is that even hate speech should be completely and totally allowed in our country.
- [25:20]
Unknown Guest
The most disgusting speech should absolutely be protected.
- [25:24]
David French
So, David French, that is what so many people who didn't know Charlie Kirk have learned in the last week about the way he conducted Those forums which was to allow anyone step up to a microphone, challenge him, ask him those questions. They may not have liked everything he said, we may not have liked everything he said, but that is the way he conducted his events. A conversation. So what would be your message this morning to Attorney General Bondi and others who saying now we are going to decide what constitutes hate speech within the outside of the First Amendment, apparently, and go after people who commit that.
- [25:58]
Unknown Guest
You know, look, I, I think Joe said it very well just a moment ago. It is two things are true at once. What happened to Charlie Kirk was pure evil. It was horrific, it was tragic. It was also not just an attack on him that shattered a family by shooting him in the middle of a debate. I call it a debate on college campus. It was an attack on the American experiment. You can say all of those things, but then turn around and also say you do not diminish the First Amendment in response. You don't. Do not diminish constitutional protections of your political enemies in response to that evil act. And look, it's absolutely clear this is not an ambiguous area of constitutional law. There is no sort of carve out, out from the First Amendment for so called hate speech. And the reason for that is pretty obvious. We don't want to delegate to the government the responsibility or the authority to declare what. How far is too far in political debate. Because guess what, the government's always going to be biased in that endeavor. The government's always going to be shutting down speech that's critical of powerful people. Charlie Kirk understood that. He said that very clearly on more than one occasion. That was a frequent theme of his. And so now, but now we're seeing in some quarters of maga, including all the way in the Attorney General's office, what's really a statement's directly defiant of decades and decades of Supreme Court jurisprudence. And so there's. It is an evil act. Evil, horrible. It is not a reason to diminish the First Amendment.
- [27:31]
Joe Scarborough
Well, and Jen, you've worked on presidential campaigns. Sadly, a lot of times the best people don't run for president because you know you're going to be targeted by hate speech. You know that's going to be part of your day every single day. But can you imagine how stifled political debate would be in this country if years ago attorney generals decided they were going, according to that podcast, they're going to put handcuffs on people whose speech they decided was hateful.
- [28:14]
Jennifer Palmieri
Yeah. If a Democratic Attorney general had done that during Joe Biden's term. And how that would have affected a presidential, how that would affect a presidential campaign. But to hear the Vice President of the United States use his office to talk like that and to take, you know, it feels like the country sort of figured out how to live with a division around Trump. Some people like him, some people don't like him, and now they're trying to force this whole other level of division on us that I think most people just don't feel right. I think most Americans are just horrified by what happened to Charlie Kirk. Most Americans think they understand. Unfortunately, this happens in America with people who are very. Online. That's, that's been sort of in the last few mass shootings. It's gone back to something like that.
- [29:03]
Joe Scarborough
Can I ask you a question?
- [29:04]
Jennifer Palmieri
Cultural, not political.
- [29:07]
Joe Scarborough
I was talking to a law enforcement officer after this happened, and he has kids, I have kids, we all have kids. And he said, when are we going to do something about that, about online? You know, free speech is free speech. But the fact that we continue to give these monopolies in Silicon Valley a complete free pass because of section 230 and allow them to pollute our children's minds, allow them to do whatever they want to do and say, oh, you can never, you can, you can never be sued because you're a monopoly and we Washington politicians are scared of you. How long are we going to allow that to happen?
- [29:54]
Jennifer Palmieri
Yeah, that. And I mean, there's the regulatory problem. I mean, the Internet as a whole.
- [30:00]
Willie Geist
Right.
- [30:00]
Jennifer Palmieri
It's not just, it's not just gaming. There's that problem, the problem of what happens on social media, but then also just young people's addiction to it, and particularly young men in America, you know, alienation and feeling a loss of opportunity. You know, Scott Galloway is way better about that than I am. But there is, I mean, that is a crisis here. There's not just a. Yeah, a real and growing crisis. And that would be a nice thing to hear the Vice President, United States talk about. Right. How are we going to deal with alienation? That would be good. Not using your sitting behind the desk in the official office to use your.
- [30:42]
Joe Scarborough
Podium that way and pretending that Melissa and her husband had not been assassinated in their family homes and also had two children left. Those two children orphaned. Right. And all the other attacks that we've seen on the left and on the right. And it's okay to say that because guess what? 80% of Americans say that 80% of Americans say, what are we going to do? People that come up to you, what are we going to do, Willie? This is crazy. They voted for Donald Trump. What are we going to do? What are we going to do, Willie? They voted for Kamala Harris and Joe Biden and Bill Clinton. What are we going to do about this? Good, decent, sane Americans, at least 80% of us, everybody I talk to, like, what are we going to do about this? We have to come together. And yet you see some people, some politicians in Washington, D.C. and some people on new shows who actually were calling for civil war during the last presidential campaign, trying to do everything they can to divide people and to profit from.
- [31:55]
David French
It and to pull out the extremes, and they are extremes, and make them representative of the whole, which, as you say, is not what our country is. I don't know anyone. I didn't hear anybody who was celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk. Of course, if you go online, if you look at a few tweets and you, you can find it, it is there. But by and large, people are not celebrating the death of Charlie. Her good people were not celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk. And they don't want us to go this way. And it has to be said, if you listen to that clip of Vice President Vance and then Attorney General Bondi, all these themes that they've been talking about for years now, the weaponization of government, lawfare, cancel culture, call people's bosses and get them fired speech.
- [32:37]
Joe Scarborough
Right.
- [32:37]
David French
We just heard it all right there. That's exactly what they're doing.
- [32:40]
Joe Scarborough
They've turned it around.
- [32:41]
David French
Yeah.
- [32:42]
Willie Geist
So still ahead on Morning Joe, we're going to bring in the latest from the Middle east as Israel expands its military offensive in Gaza City. Plus, Congress is running out of time to pass a new budget. We'll go through what President Trump wants lawmakers to do. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back.
- [33:02]
Joe Scarborough
This podcast is supported by the Obama Foundation.
- [33:06]
David French
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- [33:09]
Joe Scarborough
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David French
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Joe Scarborough
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David French
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- [33:37]
Joe Scarborough
Your new beginning starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces, and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area. Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you. Learn more@drhorton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and Equal Housing Opportunity Builder. As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [34:26]
Jennifer Palmieri
The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.
- [34:30]
Joe Scarborough
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter@msnbc.com.
- [34:38]
Willie Geist
Project 4737 past the hour. Welcome back to Morning Joe. President Trump says he is suing the New York Times for $15 billion over claims of defamation and libel. He announced the move on social media, writing in part, the Times has engaged in a decades long method of lying about your favorite president, me, my family business, the America First Movement, MAGA and our nation as a whole. This comes almost a week after Trump threatened legal action over against the paper over a report alleging he had sent a sexually suggestive note to Jeffrey Epstein for his birthday in 2003. The President is also suing Rupert Murdoch and the Wall street journal for $10 billion after the journal similarly reported Trump had signed a crude birthday card for Epstein.
- [35:42]
Joe Scarborough
Let's bring her out. The co host of our fourth hour, staff writer of the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire. Jonathan we were last night we were at Ire, the 50th anniversary celebration of investigative reporters and editors. And it was really an inspiring thing. But we heard time and time again, including from ag, that the playbook for this administration is to first of all constantly harass and lie about the media, create your own set of realities and then use civil lawsuits to try to drain them of their resources. And here we go.
- [36:20]
Ryan Reilly
And here we go. The event was certainly inspiring about the need to do our jobs as journalists clear eyed with no fear or favor to tell it like we see it. And we did hear from a number of speakers last night talking about how the free press is under assault, how this administration in particular, we've seen trends around the world, but we're now seeing it here at home, as you say, is trying to intimidate and pressure with the power of the federal government and the power of these, of litigation. And AG last night said, flat out said, without naming this, by specifically said we will defend our journalism, we will defend our reporters. We have the resources to do it. And that is true is that a company like the New York Times like the Wall street can stand up to something like this because this is going to be a lengthy process. There's going to be legal fees. It's going to be expensive. It's going to be grueling. Now, it works the other way, too. The president, we assume, and people around him would have to submit to discovery. Like that could be embarrassing. We'll see how far this actually goes down the line. But at the very least, this is the playbook. You make it very challenging. You intimidate, you try to make media organizations think twice about doing the kind of work that's so important.
- [37:22]
Joe Scarborough
And we've seen this. And Willie, we saw it with, I mean, he sued Ann Seltzer because he didn't like her disastrously wrong Iowa poll. Right. You're suing a pollster now and suing CBS for an edit, something that news organizations have been doing as long as there have been news organizations. And he was fortunate in that case that he actually had somebody that was willing to play ball because they wanted a deal to go through. But now Rupert Murdoch suing Rupert Murdoch for publishing documents that they had in the Epstein situation and now suing the New York Times once again, talking about Epstein. I mean, it's, you know, these cases are, I think, most likely going to be thrown out, but of course, at what cost? I mean, and I think here it really comes, really comes down to this is where the courts need to stop being too clever by half and they need to do their job. And they need to, again, they need to do their job, interpret the law the way it's been interpreted, and say the First Amendment's the First Amendment, stop doing these bogus lawsuits because you don't like what somebody's writing about you.
- [38:40]
David French
President said last night he's bringing this lawsuit in the state of Florida, perhaps hoping to get a friendlier audience, I guess, by having it down there. But you're right, this does raise all the questions again about why he's suing. It's Epstein. Is there going to be some discovery? Are they going to have to provide documents? And does he really want to go down that road, or is he just making this a tactic of intimidation into chill speech in newsrooms about what they cover and what they write. But David French, here we are again at the First Amendment, this time talking about newspapers, not just the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal and a whole host of them that have been reported reporting on Donald Trump. Around the Epstein case, the president mentioned the endorsement by the Times last fall of Kamala Harris sometimes somehow as illegal or at least worthy of a lawsuit. But also more recently now, what, what this is going to get into is the Jeffrey Epstein story where his name is all over the place.
- [39:35]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah.
- [39:35]
Unknown Guest
I mean, look, let's just get one thing clear. An endorsement of a political candidate is about as core a First Amendment protected activity is you're going to find in American law. Look, the pattern here is really, really clear. The pattern here is to use lawsuits and leverage government power to target political opponents. And this is happening before the assassination of Charlie Kirk. You're seeing it happening after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. This is a man, Donald Trump, and a movement that is increasingly hostile to free speech, that is increasingly hostile to other civil liberties, including, most notably, due process. So it is absolutely clear what is happening here as you're seeing an organized campaign, including the use of lawsuits, including the use of government power to try to suppress free speech and to try to, even if these lawsuits don't succeed, to try to intimidate people into silence.
- [40:38]
Willie Geist
New York Times opinion columnist David French, thank you very much. His latest piece is available to read online right now. And coming up on MORNING joe, President Trump is set to travel to the United Kingdom this morning for a rare second state visit. We'll dig into that and what this says about America's relationship with the U.K. that's ahead on Morning Joe.
- [41:05]
Joe Scarborough
Your new beginning starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area, Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you. Learn more@drhorton.com Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal housing opportunity builder. I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential.
- [41:43]
Willie Geist
Election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do.
- [41:49]
Joe Scarborough
The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody, if you can agree that most.
- [41:53]
Willie Geist
People want those things. Our show is about trying to bend.
- [41:57]
Joe Scarborough
The arc toward that end result. Deadline. White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com it is my pleasure to bring from His Majesty the King a letter. He sends his best wishes and his regards, of course. But he also asked me to bear this letter and bring it to you. So can I present a letter from the King to you? Thank you very much. This is a letter from His Majesty the King. It's an invitation for a second state visit. This is really special. This has never happened before. This is unprecedented. And I think that just symbolizes the strength of the relationship between us.
- [43:00]
Willie Geist
That was British Prime Minister Keir Starmer at the White House in February handing President Trump a letter from King Charles, formally inviting him across the pond for an unprecedented second state visit, which is set to take place.
- [43:15]
Joe Scarborough
Hold a second. Hold on, hold on, hold on.
- [43:17]
Willie Geist
Later.
- [43:19]
Joe Scarborough
Willie, do we, do we need to have a discussion with our script writers about Just across the Pond?
- [43:25]
Willie Geist
What?
- [43:25]
Joe Scarborough
It's sort of a. That was passed, say, in like 1972.
- [43:29]
David French
I never used it.
- [43:30]
Willie Geist
I didn't overdo it.
- [43:31]
Joe Scarborough
Jillian, do you ever use across the Pond? Oh, I'm going across the pond.
- [43:35]
Gillian Tett
Not much.
- [43:36]
Joe Scarborough
But you do once in a while.
- [43:37]
Willie Geist
Is it annoying?
- [43:38]
Joe Scarborough
What do you say?
- [43:39]
Gillian Tett
It does sound like something a bit out of, you know, Downton Abbey and it really does. Old style. Old style TV docudramas and.
- [43:45]
Willie Geist
Sounds like me.
- [43:46]
Gillian Tett
And that is a bit like. That is also the way that President Trump operates, isn't it? You know, he's also out of reality tv.
- [43:52]
Willie Geist
Right. I've been doing this for kind of a long time.
- [43:55]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah.
- [43:55]
Willie Geist
Anyway, 40 years.
- [43:57]
Joe Scarborough
The president and the first lady leave for the United Kingdom this morning. Let's bring right now the U.S. national Letter. @ the Financial Times, Ed Loose, also columnist, a member at the editorial board of the Financial Times. Jillian. Ted is a Financial Times.
- [44:09]
Gillian Tett
This is why it is a salmon pink pincer movement.
- [44:13]
Joe Scarborough
Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I've been fascinated from the very beginning with the President's close relationship with Keir Starmer. You would think these would be two people, a technocrat, a Labor technocrat and a populist nationalist president. But they, they seem to get on famously. Well. Why?
- [44:37]
Gillian Tett
Well, it's kind of weird. I agree. Personality wise, they're very different, as Ed would agree. I think it's because President Trump needs to find one ally who he can be seen to being friendly with at least one ally. And secondly, Keir Starmer desperately needs both a domestic political boost, and he needs to find a way for Britain to have a place in the world and to boost trade and its economy. And he knows that the single best weapon that Britain has with President Trump is not the economy. It's not all the science stuff they're going to talk about in the next couple of days, like Quantum, it's the royal family, because we have a president who would like to be a king in many ways who is just dazzled with the Disneyland tour of Britain's royal family.
- [45:18]
Joe Scarborough
Well, you know, there also, as you go across Europe, you also look at the chancellor of Germany. President has a good relationship there. He and Macron getting along much better than they did in the first.
- [45:30]
Ryan Reilly
The handshakes are still, the hands are still long.
- [45:33]
Joe Scarborough
But yes, again, it's one of these interesting things that with all the sort of battles and skirmishes that are going on and the rough first term with European allies, there is a closer relationship, no question.
- [45:46]
Ryan Reilly
Personally, President Trump has much closer ties to the leaders of Europe this time around than he did in the first term. The question is, what does that get Europe? Obviously, we have seen the trade negotiations and we now have the matter of Ukraine. Now, there's not much official business on the schedule for this trip. It's a pretty quick 36 hours in and out. A lot of pageantry, pomp, circumstance for President Trump. But there will be interesting to see if Keir Starmer or others use this moment to try to push Trump on Ukraine in particular, a conflict that has really bogged down. Russia has only escalated itself attacks. The Anchorage summit seemed to get Trump next to nothing. And we're seeing over the weekend the president even ask NATO and the EU to like ramp up sanctions against China and against Russia and the like. And for most of the continent, some of that seems like a nonstarter. So it'll be interesting to see what sort of developments we get, especially on security guarantees.
- [46:38]
Joe Scarborough
Right. You know, Ed Loose, I'm sure this be very popular on Ms. Now, defense of the monarchy or at least an explanation on why the monarchy works often the way it does. We just heard there aren't going to be a lot of things on on the agenda, on the official agenda. But that's usually where Queen Elizabeth II did her best. She often would be sent to France when they were, when the Brits were having trouble with relations with the French, when they were having trouble with economic situations with French. And oftentimes that would end up helping, helping Britain. She would time and time again politically punched four above her weight. I wonder if we have the same thing here with Keir Starmer thinking it might happen to bring the president over to see King Charles and Queen Kamala.
- [47:35]
Mika Brzezinski
Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned earlier, this is Trump's second state visit to Britain and that's never happened before. The first, I think, was Woodrow Wilson. And then, since then, most presidents have come over for one state visit. Nixon didn't have any, by the way. Reagan only had one. Trump has two. And the fact that Starmer really laid that on thick at that Oval Office meeting in February was clearly designed to appeal to Trump's egos. Not only is he going to be staying at Windsor Castle, I think he was at Buckingham palace last time, but he's going to be twice the guest of the royal family, of the Queen last time and the King this time, and that's never happened before. And this really does appeal to Trump. And it is a very sort of obvious tool that the British can use that maybe the French and the Germans, you know, are unable to use. I call it bringing fruit to the volcano. I mean, you're just sort of massaging the ego. But the bringing fruits to the volcano, you know, has a. It's helpful. Another way of putting it is it's kind of the COVID charge to the Trump Club. You have to flatter. But once you're in the club, you know, you get charged a bomb for that house soda.
- [49:01]
Joe Scarborough
I have to know, is this a reference to one of the great underrated Tom Hanks movies, Joe and the Volcano? Oh, remember, they had to go up and is that a soda to the volcanoes?
- [49:14]
Gillian Tett
No, it's a great metaphor, but I'd say it's actually also about bringing a royal pageant of horses to the wannabe king. Because what's striking is they're not just doing a second state visit, they're actually deliberately creating, putting more. More horses in the parade than they did with President Macron. And you can guarantee they're going to tell that to President Trump, that you get more horses. And there's actually quite a lively debate going on around Windsor Castle right now about how they're going to stop the horses from bolting when Trump's helicopter arrives.
- [49:43]
Willie Geist
Oh, my God.
- [49:44]
Gillian Tett
Because there are so many horses and the helicopter's going to come so close. Watch this space.
- [49:49]
Joe Scarborough
Wow, that is quite something. So, Ed Luce, you know, a thing or two about royalty and its impact on political decisions, both in the UK and with allies. What do you think is the best that Britain could hope for right now?
- [50:15]
Mika Brzezinski
I think that the strategy here is not a massive positive agenda. It's really sort of avoiding things getting worse. So, I mean, you've mentioned, you know, Ukraine, Keir Starmer, amongst other European leaders, has constantly been trying to sort of pull President Trump back from the ledge on that and holding, you know, linking arms with President Zelensky of Ukraine. This is clearly high up on the British agenda. Another is, you know, to stop any deterioration or unraveling of the trade deal. You remember that the first trade deal after Trump's Liberation Day was UK US deal. And Britain kind of dodged a bullet there. It only has 10% tariffs. So preventing that from unraveling is a priority of Starmer. I think, though, there's a third one which is quite important, which is that Trump's best political friend in Britain is Nigel Farage, head of the Reform Party, which is leading in the polls. Farage wants Starmer's job. And you had a right wing rally last Saturday that Elon Musk addressed. Really sort of spreading the rhetoric we've had in the wake of Charlie Kirk back to London saying, you've gotessentially, you've got a civil war coming in Britain and violence is coming to you. Get ready, get ready to use violence. And that that kind of rhetoric is extremely unhelpful and incendiary. And I think that the extent to which Keir Starmer may be helped by King Charles can get Trump not to think like that, not to talk like a pyromaniac in the context of Britain would also be a goal, a sort of unspoken goal of Trump's state visit.
- [52:04]
Joe Scarborough
Well, and Elon Musk getting involved. I mean, there you go. He's just curse Nigel Farage. I mean, his losing streak likely will continue. I mean, Elon Musk convinced himself that he got Donald Trump elected. Donald Trump gets Donald Trump elected. Nobody gets Donald Trump elected. No, they just don't. Everybody. I love these people. They got like Ronald Reagan elected all these years. Well, you know, I certain told him you needed like, no, Reagan got Reagan elected, Obama got Obama elected. And you know, Trump got Trump elected. And Elon Musk going around spreading hate has freaked out one European country after another European country after another European country. And I'm sure it's going to freak out people in Britain too.
- [52:52]
Gillian Tett
Absolutely. And remember, of course, you had members of the administration expressing support for the AfD, the German FAR right party as well before. Right. So there's a freak them out movement. But I'll just pick up on what Ed Lieu said about Ukraine, because one of the items at the top of the agenda for the next couple of days is indeed Ukraine. I was in Ukraine a few days ago and the mood there is very desperate in many ways to see some signal of US support and above all else to galvanize and support the Europeans, because, remember, we just had Russian drones going into Polish airspace.
- [53:24]
Joe Scarborough
Right.
- [53:25]
Gillian Tett
And the concern is that Europe is starting to slide into a quasi hybrid cyber war and other types of wars with Russia. And they want to know whether America is going to be supporting NATO for that or not.
- [53:37]
Joe Scarborough
Good timing for this, this meeting.
- [53:39]
Willie Geist
Very good timing, Gillian Ted, Ed Loose both of the Financial Times, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning.
- [53:47]
Joe Scarborough
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Joe Scarborough
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