← Morning Joe
Morning Joe
‘Pushed by MAGA base for years’: Joe slams Trump’s Democratic 'hoax’ claims over Epstein outrage
00:52:59
President Donald Trump disowned his supporters who have called for the release of files related to Jeffrey Epstein, chiding them Wednesday as "weaklings" who "bought into this bulls---." Trump called the issue 'a big hoax' and 'perpetrated by the Democrats'. The Morning Joe panel discusses.
Loading summary
Transcript112 lines
- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows. Ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:31]
Donald Trump
It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net and so they try and do the Democrats work. I call it the Epstein hoax.
- [00:44]
Mika Brzezinski
Will you ask Attorney General Pam Bondi.
- [00:46]
Joe Scarborough
To release more documents to finally put.
- [00:48]
David Ignatius
This controversy to bed?
- [00:49]
Donald Trump
Whatever's credible, she can release. If a document is credible. If a document's there that is credible, she can release. I think it's, I think it's good, but it's just really, it's just a subject. He's dead, he's gone. And all it is is the Republicans. Certain Republicans got duped by the Democrats.
- [01:12]
Mika Brzezinski
President Trump yesterday continuing to dismiss the outrage from his base over the handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files, even going as far as saying he doesn't want their support anymore. We'll look at whether he's actually at risk of losing some of his MAGA coalition. Also ahead, we'll go through conflicting messages from President Trump about future of Fed Chair Jerome Powell, as well as the warnings from top banking CEOs. And we'll dig into new reporting on last month's Air India crash, revealing new details about actions taken by the pilot. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Thursday, July 17, and we'll get to our top story here with Joe, Willie and me. President Trump is now directly disavowing his own supporters who are calling for the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files. In a lengthy social media post yesterday, the President blasted anyone who continued to talk about Epstein, whether they're Trump supporters or not, calling them weaklings who, quote, brought into this bs. He also claimed Democrats have concocted the, quote, Epstein hoax. Trump then spoke about it with reporters in the Oval Office and during an appearance on a right wing network.
- [02:37]
Donald Trump
It's a hoax. It's started by Democrats. It's been run by the Democrats for four years. I lost a lot of faith in certain people. Yeah, I lost because they got duped by the Democrats. The Democrats are good for nothing. I'd rather talk about the success we have with the economy. The best we've ever had and all of the things we've done, including the Middle East, I mean, you see it instead, they want to talk about the Epstein hoax. And the sad part is it's people that are really doing the Democrats work. They're stupid people. And all my supporters want to talk about is the Jeffrey Epstein hoax. It's unbelievable. It's a disgrace. And I'm going to. I remember every one of these guys, they're my supporters and they just, they love it. They love it. And it's all induced by the Democrats. The Democrats are the ones that are getting them to say this stuff.
- [03:32]
Jonathan Lemire
You think, what are the things that are most important that you would like to see the FBI get to the bottom of?
- [03:38]
Donald Trump
I think they could look at all of it. It's all the same scam. They could look at this Jeffrey Epstein hoax also, because that's the same stuff that's all put out by Democrats.
- [03:48]
Mika Brzezinski
Later, at a bill signing ceremony at the White House, the President was asked whether he thinks a special counsel should be appointed to deal with the Epstein files.
- [03:59]
David Ignatius
Sir, will you.
- [04:03]
Donald Trump
Investigation. I have nothing to do with it.
- [04:07]
Mika Brzezinski
And we'll note NBC's Tom Winter and MSNBC's Ken Delaney and have clear reporting that there is no actual client list.
- [04:17]
David Ignatius
What this memo is effectively saying is what reporters who have worked on this case for years have told you. There's no evidence here of a list.
- [04:25]
Jonathan Lemire
There are lots of files. There is no client list. And by the way, we've been reporting that for years. People who've covered this investigation. Tom Winter in New York has been told that by investigators. All right, so Willie, it's not being pushed by the left wing, radical, Marxist, whatever media. It's not being pushed by Democrats. I saw Bill O'Reilly having a debate, talking about. This all began when Merrick Garland arrested Epstein. And he kept being correct. No, no, this happened in 2019. The arrest, Jeffrey Epstein's death, all of that happened in 2019, when Donald Trump was President of the United States the first time. Wasn't Democrats going through the 2024 campaign, 2324, saying, we're going to get this information out. It was people like Charlie Kirk. It was people in the President's own administration. It was, it was Republicans that kept pounding this nonstop. I mean, the President yesterday saying it was a Democrats. No, no, it has. No, the Democrats have been attacked by Republicans and the media has been attacked by Republicans for years for not pushing this more. And so it's really, it's just, it's Crazy. I don't know who in the world would be stupid enough to believe that this was some Democratic hoax that Democrats had been pushing when it's been pushed by the MAGA base for years. This has been almost a foundational belief of maga, that there's this global child pedophilia ring, and Jeffrey Epstein was at the center of it. It was Republicans, Republicans, MAGA people. MAGA people. Right wingers. Right wingers. And they were attacking Biden, they were attacking Garland, they were attacking the mainstream media for not buying into it more. So everything he said about this being a Democratic hoax, it's just not true.
- [06:50]
David Ignatius
That's exactly right. And it is foundational, as David French explained really well with us yesterday. He took time and explained how this idea was born, how it became an obsession, and how it is foundational in the way that many MAGA supporters, many in the far right wing of our politics, believe that the leadership, that the elites in this country are a part of some cabal, as you said, of pedophilia. It goes back to Pizzagate and QAnon, and we can get into all of that. This is an obsession. This is foundational in the MAGA culture and that what's been really interesting is many of Donald Trump's supporters are not buying what he's been saying over the last couple of years. When he says, it's the Democrats, it's the Democrats, it's the Democrats, he's using the term hoax. What part of this is a hoax? Do you not believe that Jeffrey Epstein did the things he was convicted of doing, the further things that he's accused of doing before he died as he was awaiting trial? What is the hoax part of this? It is not Democrats. And the supporters that have been by Donald Trump's side and have rarely, if ever, spoken out against him continue to do so yesterday. They're upset about the way he and his administration are handling this case.
- [08:06]
Jonathan Lemire
Mr. President, the emphasis on Epstein is truly the best intentions of your most loyal followers. And it's not that people are saying, you know, they want to learn about Epstein because they have any suspicion of President Trump. No, have an understanding of your supporters and your followers here and know that they're not trying to take you out. They're not trying to fall for a hoax. A leader who can convincingly bring transparency to this case will win loyalty and support from people who have been jaded about politics, and Trump can be that leader. Bringing this into the public arena was President Trump. That's a matter of historic record. It's not up for debate. It's the administration and their handling of this, which is why everyone's talking about it. It didn't have to be handled this way. It's been abysmal and people aren't satisfied. And that's what all available polling shows. Find it stingingly ironic that Trump compares all these things to these hoaxes. And the reason we know they're hoaxes, because evidence was released.
- [09:25]
Donald Trump
If you talk about this, I'm going to excommunicate you.
- [09:29]
Jonathan Lemire
Well, you're not the Pope, bro. I mean, you're not speaking from the throne ex cathedral. Anyone who disagrees, anything I say is banished. And I'm not saying Trump land is a cult.
- [09:45]
David Ignatius
The Democrats are the cult of hating.
- [09:48]
Jonathan Lemire
Reason and logic and common sense.
- [09:52]
Donald Trump
But.
- [09:54]
Jonathan Lemire
When Trump starts behaving like that, it starts getting into cult territory.
- [10:01]
David Ignatius
Charlie Kirk, Benny Johnson, and there Alex Jones. Trump's former national security adviser Michael Flyn joined the chorus as well, posting a lengthy statement on social media, pleading with the president to reconsider his stance on this case. Joe. So there you have it. Some of the most powerful voices in the MAGA movement, ranging from Charlie Kirk, who really speaks to young members of the MAGA movement, to the very most extreme in Alex Jones and Infowars, saying we don't like being told we're stupid for wanting transparency about something we've been obsessed with for years and years and years.
- [10:39]
Jonathan Lemire
Well, yeah, and I mean, you're, you're also hearing it from, well, from all across conservative media. You're hearing it from Megyn Kelly. Yesterday she interviewed Mark Calperin talking about why this just doesn't make any sense at all. To be attacking supporters and to be saying that they are they, that they're stupid, that he doesn't want their support, and then saying that they're, they're buying into a democratic hoax that everybody knows wasn't a democratic hoax because these people with podcasts were the very people that were pushing it the hardest from 2021, 22, 23, 24. And you just can't say halfway through 25, oh, nothing to see here. Move along, move along. And if you don't move along after you said this for five years and believed this for five years, and this was a foundational belief of the MAGA movement, you can't tell those same people that they're stupid, that their excommunicated, and that somehow Joe Biden and Merrick Garland did this. I will also say too, you start throwing hoax around with an Epstein investigation, one of the worst pedophiles in American history. And I don't think anybody doubts that. You start calling that a hoax, then people start looking at other things. So wait a second. He's called all these other things hoaxes, and we just fell for it hook, line and sinker. If he's now calling the fact that Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile who got the richest and most powerful man in the world on his plane going to his island, if he's calling that a hoax now, when we know it's not a hoax, what else is he not being straight with us about? So it's a very. It's a very dangerous strategy, and one that I must say I'm still baffled by. A lot of questions remain. Let's bring in right now editor in chief at Christianity Today, Russell Moore. He has a new piece for the publication titled why We Want to See the Epstein Files. Russell? Yeah, I again, this has been, again, Epstein, the fact that this guy got away with so much for so long and the fact there's so many questions that are still remaining so much of his life and so much of the pedophile ring, and we still don't know for sure who all the rich and powerful people were. You know, that's a question that has rung out in MAGA World and certainly has with members in the church as well, hasn't it?
- [13:42]
Russell Moore
Yeah. And at first when I started hearing about this from people, I thought, well, you know, this will be like Access Hollywood. People initially were a little upset, but then they just kind of put it aside or January 6th. All kinds of people who looked at January 6th and thought, I didn't sign up for that, but who then just kind of moved along. I thought that will happen with this as well, but it's not. And there seems to be something very different here from people who have been saying for years, we have to get at this Epstein case. And one of the real tells that I'm seeing is the way that humor is being used. If you look at the ESPY Awards, at the comedy, comedy being used there, about whether it was an Epstein joke here, but it's been deleted and maybe it deleted itself. That's not partisan humor. It's the kind of gallows humor that I think the whole country just about is feeling right now. And we haven't seen an issue that's been able to unite people across the stage of American life in a long time, a really long time.
- [14:51]
David Ignatius
Russell, can you explain a little bit as well, beyond the obvious that everyone should want to know if there were people, whether powerful or not, that we don't know about, participating in a pedophile ring, pedophilia ring. Can you explain why it goes deeper in the MAGA movement, why it goes deeper in the conservative movement, why it goes deeper in the church? When you talk to people, why is this. We keep using the word foundational, but it really is to a lot of people. Why is this story so important to so many people?
- [15:20]
Russell Moore
Well, I think some of it is just the horror of the moral atrocity itself. I think that many people are able to see somebody who's not only sexually exploiting, raping minor girls, but is also doing so with some of the richest people allegedly in the country in a kind of systematic sort of torture, sexual torture of them. Most people can see that that's repulsive to functioning consciences. But then you add to that that this is part of what. In the MAGA movement, there's been this concern for many years that the leaders are out of step with people. So there's a group of elite, sometimes talked about in terms of a deep state, sometimes talked about in terms of just the Uni Party or whoever. There's a group of people who want two different sets of laws, two different kinds of American dreams in terms of economy, two different kinds of laws for people. So they. They started thinking about the Epstein case when it wasn't one of those dividing kind of choose your jersey issues and line up. And so that's gone on for so long. It's very difficult for people just to say, oh, the person that I've rightly identified as a villain, now I'm just not supposed to think about anymore. That's. That's very, very difficult for people to do.
- [16:53]
Mika Brzezinski
At the same time, President Trump has been able to turn the page on issues, Russell, and move the interest in a different direction. Is it possible perhaps, that he does the same here?
- [17:08]
Russell Moore
Well, I expect that he will at some point, but I've been expecting that for the past several days. I mean, one of the things that's shocking about this era is just how quickly things go. I mean, I was stunned last week to realize it was a year since the Biden Trump debate. That seems like 10 years has happened. And, you know, the bombing of Iran, how long ago does that seem and how distant from what we're talking about right now? This story, though, at least right now, continues to persist. And a lot of the methods that are being used, if you just don't pay attention to it, it's not real. If you Pay attention to it. You're supporting our enemies. If you pay attention to it as of yesterday, you're stupid and dupes. Those don't seem to be working yet, will they? At some point, maybe. But they've usually worked a lot quicker than this before now.
- [18:05]
Jonathan Lemire
Well, you know, you can tell when pastors are hearing from their congregation on certain issues, and you can tell when these podcasts and politicians are hearing from their listeners and their constituents, Russell, because they realize they don't have any choice. They can't back down and wash their hands of it. Editor in chief at Christianity Today, Dr. Russell Moore. As always, it's great having you here. Thanks a lot.
- [18:35]
Russell Moore
Thanks, Joe.
- [18:37]
Mika Brzezinski
Thank you so much.
- [18:38]
Jonathan Lemire
So, Mika, we played earlier, we played a clip of Tom Winter talking about how there is no client list and blowing up these conspiracy theories. I will say if you talk to people inside the administration that are close to all of this, they will say they're frustrated as well, because there are a lot of people that came in expecting to find much more than they found. But they point back to the plea deal that happened in 2006 with Acosta, where he gave him a sweetheart deal when he was with the Southern District of Florida and basically let Comey off the hook, let the state take care of it. They let him walk in and out of prison. And, you know, the belief is that any tapes, any incriminating evidence of rich, powerful men molesting and raping, sexually assaulting these young girls, they believe because of what Acosta did in 05 or 06 with his plea deal, the evidence just wasn't around because Epstein wasn't going to keep it around. He was arrested by the feds. Acosta didn't go after this stuff, gave him a sweetheart deal. And they're saying that was the time to get all this information, and that's why they don't have it now to release. That's at least their take. But the administration, why continue with it? The feds, they're going to have to explain what's been happening and why members of the administration have been saying what members of the administration have been saying.
- [20:22]
Mika Brzezinski
Well, meanwhile, federal prosecutor Maureen Comey, the daughter of former FBI Director James Comey, was fired by the Justice Department yesterday. It's unclear why she was let go, but sources familiar with the matter tell NBC News the U.S. attorney's office for the Southern District of New York cited Article 2 of the Constitution, which establishes the executive power of the president. Comey prosecuted Sean Diddy Combs during his sex trafficking trial this year and played a role in the prosecution of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein and of his co conspirator Ghislaine Maxwell. Recently, Comey had become the target of renewed attacks by influencers in Trump's right wing base who are raising concerns over the Trump administration's handling of the Epstein case. This also comes as the DoJ has launched a criminal investigation into Maureen's father, James Comey. Joining us now with new reporting on this development is New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schmidt. Michael, there's a lot to work with there. What happened as far as you can tell?
- [21:38]
Michael Schmidt
Well, we don't really know what happened. We know that Maureen Comey had been one of the lead prosecutors on the Puffy Combs case, that that result had happened about a couple of weeks ago. Last week, two things about her father came out. One, that the Justice Department may be looking at him again related to the Russia investigation. That is something that he's been investigated at as nauseam about including special counsel under Trump's first term. We also learned last week we reported that in the day after Comey had posted a photo on Instagram that the Secret Service had investigated as a potential threat to the president, Comey himself and his wife were followed by the Secret Service both through physical surveillance as they drove home from vacation. But also they tracked his phone. And here you have spur being fired amid this huge firestorm that has engulfed the Trump administration about the Epstein case. As Tom Winter has, as Tom Winter has pointed out, there is no like client list. But whatever there is in the Epstein files, Maureen Comey knows he brought the prosecution of Jeffrey Epstein in 2019 during the first Trump term. And it was just a month after that that Epstein hung himself in his cell room. And she was the lead, one of the lead prosecutors on that case.
- [23:24]
David Ignatius
Yeah, Michael, on that point. So the timing of this, I think is what caught a lot of people by attention. Of course there's a connection to her father and she prosecuted other cases. But as the president is caught up in this firestorm around Jeffrey Epstein, conveniently one of the prosecutors who went after him is fired. She had been arguing against the disclosure of any more information because there's sensitive information obviously about young victims. She had all the reasons that prosecutors have. Valid. What is your sense of any connection between her firing and what's happening right now between the White House, all of his supporters and Jeffrey Epstein?
- [24:02]
Michael Schmidt
We don't know. Look, this is something that far right agitators had been pushing for for some time to get rid of her. They had identified her as Comey's daughter. And, you know, loyalty is obviously something incredibly important to the MAGA movement and to Trump. And the, in the Trump administration in its second term has used its power both you know, externally and internally and highly unusual and in extraordinary ways. There are a slew of prosecutors that have been fired by the department, many of them who worked on January 6th investigations. That's something we've never seen before, where the department just comes in and clears out prosecutors who worked on controversial cases, or at least controversial cases to the president of the United States. So as much as the department has operated differently, as they did in, you know, in, in the case of Mayor Adams, where they cut this highly unusual deal to end his criminal execution, internally, personnel wise, they the administration has used its power to exact vengeance and to get rid of people that worked on cases that they didn't like.
- [25:23]
Mika Brzezinski
All right, New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schmidt, thank you very much. His latest reporting available to read online right now at the New York Times. And still ahead on Morning Joe, we'll dig into new reporting on whether President Trump may try to fire Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. Plus, the latest hour of the Middle east after Israel attacked Syria's capital. And a reminder, the Morning Joe podcast is available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching MORNING joe. We'll be right back.
- [26:11]
Joe Scarborough
As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [26:28]
David Ignatius
The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.
- [26:32]
Joe Scarborough
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.
- [26:50]
David Ignatius
The second Trump administration has gone to.
- [26:52]
Jonathan Lemire
Unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.
- [26:55]
Joe Scarborough
Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up now@msnbc.com hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
- [27:11]
Jonathan Lemire
This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? A special crossover episode with the hosts.
- [27:16]
David Ignatius
Of the Strict Scrutiny podcast.
- [27:18]
Michael Schmidt
I think the Supreme Court massively misplayed this.
- [27:21]
David Ignatius
End of term, my solution would be.
- [27:25]
Mika Brzezinski
More trying to address the underlying structural.
- [27:28]
David Ignatius
Issues that allow us to get to.
- [27:30]
Mika Brzezinski
A point where A minority faction that is not committed to and antagonistic to.
- [27:37]
Michael Schmidt
The rule of law can get power.
- [27:39]
Mika Brzezinski
The bigger fundamental problem is that we have never done the work in this country of actually wrestling with our deep seated antipathy for a multiracial, multifaith, pluralistic democracy.
- [27:50]
Jonathan Lemire
That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening? Wherever you're listening right now and follow.
- [27:56]
Donald Trump
He's a, he's a terrible Fed chair. I was surprised he was appointed. I was surprised, frankly, that Biden put him in and extended him. But they did. It is my pleasure and my honor to announce my nomination of Jerome Powell to be the next chairman of the Federal Reserve. Congratulations, Jim.
- [28:21]
Jonathan Lemire
It's as, it's as if videotape doesn't exist. You know, it's like blaming Democrats for, for Jeffrey Epstein, blaming Joe Biden for Jerome Powell, Donald Trump supporters blaming Merrick Garland for bringing the case against Jeffrey Epstein. And again, it's just kind of like we can't do the whole let's go to tape. So anyway, it's very, it's fascinating, Mika, what's happening now with Jerome Powell? There was talk, a lot of talk about impossible being fired and certainly letters being written to push for the firing. The markets very quickly reacted to that news. And at least, at least for yesterday, there is a big veto from the markets and also right people who run the economy and a lot of Republican senators.
- [29:33]
Mika Brzezinski
Well, President Trump says he has no intention of firing the man that he appointed to serve as Federal Reserve chair, wrongly blaming former President Joe Biden there in that soundbite coming in. This comes despite reports that the president told Republican lawmakers during a Tuesday night meeting that he intends to fire Fed Chair Jerome Powell, a move many point out he cannot legally make. According to the New York Times, during that meeting, Trump showed a draft letter to fire Powell and asked lawmakers if he should do it. However, during an Oval Office meeting with the Crown Prince of Bahrain yesterday, Trump denied the report. Have you drafted a letter?
- [30:17]
Donald Trump
I haven't drafted a letter.
- [30:18]
Mika Brzezinski
So you didn't show a letter to Republican lawmakers last night?
- [30:21]
Donald Trump
No, I talked about the concept of firing him. I said, what do you think? Almost every one of them said I should. But during the conversation when we were talking about it, I asked, what would you do about that? They all said we'd fire him.
- [30:35]
Mika Brzezinski
Powell has repeatedly said that he will not leave the central bank if Trump tries to fire him or orders him to leave. With us, we have our co host of our fourth hour contributing writer at The Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, White House reporter for Bloomberg News, Josh Wingrove, and columnist and associate editor for the Washington Post, David Ignatius Lemire. I'd love to just start this off with you with does Donald Trump want the face off with Jerome Powell? Because I think Jerome Powell has made it very clear the Fed should be independent and the president cannot fire him.
- [31:13]
Jonathan Lemire
Him.
- [31:14]
David Ignatius
Powell has made that argument repeatedly and certainly history backs him up. But Donald Trump hates him. Let's be clear about this. President Trump, fairly or not, has blamed Jerome Powell for what he sees as flaws in the economy. He has nicknamed him too Late, Powell, thinking that interest rates should be cut. And Powell has moved too late. He has taken true social posts to insult him in any matter of ways. Powell has made clear he's not going anywhere. Trump has agitated, wanting to push him out. And yesterday we got reporting that he was talking to House Republicans, as you just noted, saying, should I oust him? What do you think? And the consensus was, yes, you should. But then word got out, we saw what the markets did, and at the end of the day, we're reminded once again the bond market gets a vote when it comes to things with the economy. So Trump has not moved just yet. Powell left twisting in the wind, but he's made a clear, clear he's not going anywhere, at least not yet. Josh Wingrove, you're obviously, you cover this so closely. Give us your latest reporting as to what you believe is Powell's future and this face off with Trump.
- [32:24]
Josh Wingrove
Yeah, good morning. Thank you for having me. It's been a whirlwind 36 hours. I mean, that meeting you mentioned, that letter reportedly, according to the Times, drafted by FHFA Director Bill Pulte, he's demurring on whether that was the case. But this is how Trump, Trump tosses around ideas, right? He toys with things. He polls his staff, he polls Republican lawmakers. And that's often a leading indicator of where you think he is going. But he also manages to shift the goalposts. And I think one thing that we shouldn't lose sight of yesterday, even with him saying it's, quote, highly unlikely that he will move on from Powell or try to fire Powell unless he has to go for fraud, that second clause is very important. But because it is coming as Trump is trying to sort of build a case and his allies are helping him do this against Powell on grounds of the Fed's renovation project, it's essentially a new line of attacks. So Trump is saying, you know, no, I'm not going to go try to fire him. But there's this other project. And in the hours after that, some of his aides are clamoring and planning to go visit in person this project. And so that's part of the sort of confounding factor here. You have Trump saying, indicating to these lawmakers privately, hey, I think I might do it. Are reporting that as of yesterday morning that he was likely to try to fire Powell. The White House has acknowledged previously they were looking for legal avenues to at least try to do that. But it is far from clear and almost surely would be some kind of fight unless Powell decided to step away and then as you mentioned midday, hit that denial. But, you know, we'll see where this goes. But, but I should note the Fed is not run exclusively by Jay Powell. I mean, they held rates in June in what was a unanimous decision. They're expected to hold rates again. And one of the things that is preventing them from moving on the current rate is tariff uncertainty. Of course, President Trump's own tariffs, a whole whack of which are poised to go in on August 1 after the next Fed meeting. So there's a lot of moving parts on this one. I agree with Jonathan. Trump cannot get Jay Powell off his mind. He's really ticked about him. He wants lower rates. But it's not just Jay Powell that wants those lower rates. So President Trump is looking for other lines of attack.
- [34:41]
David Ignatius
Well, if President Trump does not fire the chairman, it might be because of a constituency he respects. Rich guys, top banking CEOs are coming to Powell's defense now warning of the consequences if the Fed chair is fired.
- [34:56]
Jonathan Lemire
The Fed was set up to be.
- [34:57]
Josh Wingrove
Independent and have a dual mandate, unemployment, price stability, that is inflation. And their job is to manage, you know, add their management economy through short term interest rate adjustments to accomplish that outcome. And I think a stable central bank.
- [35:10]
Jonathan Lemire
Is a, is really very important and very important in the United States because.
- [35:15]
Josh Wingrove
Of this size economy with $30 trillion.
- [35:17]
Jonathan Lemire
Plus of debt out there held all over the world with a dependence upon trade, trade flows.
- [35:21]
Josh Wingrove
The stability of this country is actually necessary and important to the whole world.
- [35:25]
Jonathan Lemire
And I think a stable Fed, an.
- [35:27]
Josh Wingrove
Independent Fed is key to that.
- [35:29]
David Ignatius
Stability is a word we heard a lot yesterday. That was bank of America CEO Brian Moynihan yesterday on CNBC. Also, the leaders of Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase, Citigroup have spoken out this week about the importance of an independent Federal Reserve.
- [35:44]
Josh Wingrove
Joe.
- [35:46]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, I mean, and David Ignatius. Let's just look at where we are right now financially As a nation, We've got a $37 trillion debt, this big bodacious budget busting bill that, whatever they called it, adds 4 trillion additional dollars. The Congressional Budget Office and most independent analysts agree our federal debt is going to go up another $20 trillion over the next decade. That means we're going to be trillion dollars in debt. The bond markets are already shaky. Inflation, it's, it's being held down right now. You look at the numbers yesterday, though, you look at the warnings about tariffs, you look at all the other things that are going on. And right now the Fed's doing everything they can to stop that from exploding and for inflation, going back up again. It's hard to imagine anybody, any, anybody in America, anybody across the world that understands how bond markets work would think that firing the Fed chairman and, and making, taking away that independent voice is a smart thing to do.
- [37:07]
David Ignatius
So the Wall Street Journal, in an editorial this morning, had three words of advice about whether to fire Fed Chairman Jay Powell. The three words were, don't do it. And the reason is obvious, that around the world, in every financial center, there's a sense that Jay Powell is one of the people who is keeping politics from overwhelming fiscal economic decisions in this administration. This current period is a demonstration of why an independent, that Federal Reserve is important. You have strong pressure from a president who, like most presidents, wants to goose the economy with lower rates. And you have a Fed chairman saying, wait a minute, there are inflationary pressures in the economy because of tariffs. We have early signs that those are actually pushing up inflation. Now's not the time. So it's a moment that really tests the integrity of our, of our financial system. The effect on financial markets in the US and around the world of actually going ahead and firing Jay Powell would be enormous. I think Trump knows that. That's why he's pulled back. But it's rare to see this degree of consensus on anything from people in the financial markets. They are united in thinking getting rid of Jay Powell would be a disaster.
- [38:35]
Mika Brzezinski
David Ignacio has one more item for you as we turn to the Middle east. And amid its war in Gaza and recent strikes on Iran, Israel has now opened up a new line of attack in Syria, striking that country's capital city in broad daylight. Warplanes targeted the Syrian Defense Ministry and an area near the presidential palace. That comes amid fierce fighting between Syrian government forces and the country's Druze minority, which Israel has pledged to protect. A fragile ceasefire has since been announced, but continued clashes have been reported. Secretary of State Marco Rubio called the situation both troubling and horrifying and later suggested it was a misunderstanding between the opposing forces. DAVID Ignatius, is that possible?
- [39:29]
David Ignatius
So what's happening in Syria, like most things in the Middle east, is complicated. But Syria is a country with many small ethnic groups. One of them, the Druze, live in Syria, Israel and Lebanon. They have very close relationships in Israel with the Israeli military. And the Israelis have been intervening in recent days to protect the Druze from what they claim are attacks by the new regime. And as far as I understand what happened yesterday, this bombing of Damascus, repeatedly targeted, targeting the Syrian Defense Ministry, was an attempt to push back in this broader campaign to support and defend the Druze. The new president of Syria, who's been backed by the United States, who's trying to unify this disparate country, accused the Israelis of trying to create endless chaos in this country, in effect saying, you're trying to prevent me from uniting the country again after all these years of division. So I think that we're likely to see in Syria, as for so many years in Lebanon, a fragmented country. I think Israel probably believes that's in its security interest. As somebody who's been visiting Syria since 1981, I first went there, the idea of keeping this country permanently divided and, you know, all the little groups at war with each other other really is tragic. And I hope the Israelis will back off and help the new president pull the country together.
- [41:06]
Jonathan Lemire
DAVID this, of course, comes on the heels of an exhaustive New York Times report talking about how Benjamin Netanyahu over the past several years has never, never blown an opportunity to blow an opportunity for peace, for ceasefires, for tamping things down. And now here we have him ordering strikes in Syria, another country. I mean, at some point, Benjamin Netanyahu is going to run out of things to attack. And I must say, yesterday's attack, I'm sure, raised a lot of eyebrows inside the administration, as you saw from Marco Rubio there, outside the administration and across the region, who, for many people, they believe, as the New York Times reporting showed, that Benjamin Netanyahu understands that when the gunfire stops, when the bombs stop dropping, he still faces an unlikely future, politically and legally at best.
- [42:22]
David Ignatius
JOE to me, Benjamin Netanyahu is in many ways a paradox. I like like to separate two strands of this in his campaign against Hezbollah and Iran itself, this ferocious attack that Israel launched, he took down Hezbollah in Lebanon and much of the Iranian regime that has been devoted, dedicated to Israel's destruction. And it's hard not to admire the way Israel conducted that campaign, ruthless though it was. The Gaza war is something different. The Gaza, Israeli military, friends tell me, should have ended in military terms a year ago. It continues on and on, in part because Netanyahu and his government simply don't have a plan for what comes next. And so the killing continues. So in the case of Gaza, I think it's really time for Israelis want the hostages home. They want this war to end. On the other things again, I think Netanyahu has achieved something that will last and be beneficial in terms of pushing Israel's sworn enemies back.
- [43:38]
Mika Brzezinski
The Washington Post's David Ignatius, thank you very much for coming on this morning. And White House reporter for Bloomberg News, Josh Wingrove, thank you as well. His latest piece is available online right now. And coming up on Morning Joe, Golf Channel host Rich Lerner joins us from Northern Ireland where the final major of the season is underway. Morning JOE is right back.
- [44:11]
Joe Scarborough
MSNBC Films presents Season 2 of Leguizamo does America, an NBC News Studios production on the next episode. John Leguizamo travels to Denver Sunday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why is this Happening? Main justice and more, plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows. Add free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [44:57]
Jonathan Lemire
When I was looking calendar for 2025, this was, you know, this was the the tournament that was probably.
- [45:07]
Rich Lerner
I don't.
- [45:08]
Jonathan Lemire
Know, circled even more so than the Masters for different reasons. So it's lovely to be coming in.
- [45:13]
Rich Lerner
Here already with the major and everything.
- [45:16]
Jonathan Lemire
Else that's happened this year. So.
- [45:20]
David Ignatius
I'm excited with where my game is.
- [45:22]
Rich Lerner
I felt like I showed some really.
- [45:23]
Jonathan Lemire
Good signs last week and feel like I'm in a good spot and had.
- [45:28]
Rich Lerner
A not the last week was a pure preparation week, but it definitely I.
- [45:33]
Jonathan Lemire
Feel like it put me in a good spot heading into here.
- [45:36]
David Ignatius
That's Rory McIlroy, the PGA Tour's second ranked golfer previewing the Open Championship now underway this morning in his home country of Northern Ireland, which is why he has had this circled on the calendar. Joining us now from the Royal Portrush Golf Club in Northern Ireland, Golf Channel host Rich Lerner. Rich, it's great to see you. So obviously, perhaps a mix of excitement and pressure for Rory playing in front of the home fans?
- [46:02]
Rich Lerner
Yeah, well, he came here in 2019. Tremendous hype. And it was all just sort of too much for Rory. He grew up about 50 miles from here, little town called Hollywood, a working man's club. And on the very first hole of that championship, with all of his supporters here, he had a ball out of bounds. He made A quadruple bogey eight. Shot 79 in the opening round. It was, you know, akin to a big sporting event, say, like, we're excited for it. I'm thinking about Tyson and Spinks, and it's over in 91 seconds. This is a different Rory. Six years later, he's dealt with enormous pressure. We know what he did at the Masters in April. And he's back, I think, clear minded. He's playing some really good golf. And I think should he win this week, it would complete one of the most consequential and emotional seasons in the history of the sport. Completing the career Grand Slam at the masters after 11 years, trying to, trying and failing. All the hope and the heartbreak, and finally a spot in the hallowed turf in this sport. One of six to have won all four major championships and then to finish it off by coming home where he grew up, a boyhood dream. And winning it would be one for the ages.
- [47:17]
David Ignatius
Yeah, we saw all that emotion coming out of him after the win at Augusta back in April. Kind of getting that monkey off his back would be extraordinary now to win the Open on his home tour. By the way, we saw Rory with the Versant logo on his bag there. That's the new media company that will be the home to both MSNBC and Golf Channel, among others. Kind of a cool touch from Rory there. Let me ask you, Rich, about Scotty. He's off this morning. He's already carded a birdie on the third hole. I think he's on the fifth as we speak. He's playing well. He's had another good year. It seems like he doesn't have bad years. But there was an interesting moment at the press availability this week when he kind of gave a meditation on winning when he said all this winning in golf isn't what's fulfilling about life. He's like, it's not the stuff that really touches your heart. It's sort of. He's taken this big picture view of where he is in his life and his career. He says, it doesn't mean I want to win any less. I just understand what winning means in terms of being a priority in my own life.
- [48:19]
Rich Lerner
I Liked it. I spoke to his mom, Diane. He was raised in an interesting family. Scotty, his mom, Diane, was CEO. CEO of some prestigious law firms. His dad, Scott, was a stay at home father. I don't think Scotty had sort of an archetypal male role model. This sort of idea where you have to, you know, kill what you eat, be the toughest guy in the room. Scotty can be introspective. I asked Diane last year. I said, please help me as a reporter understand why your son is so good at what he does. And what she said was simple and powerful. She said, scottie is not his score. Anybody who's played sports at the highest level would understand that. I once asked David Duvall shortly after he won the Open championship in 2001, how it struck, struck him. And he said something that floored me. He said it was an existential moment for me. What do you mean by that? He said, well, I stared at the claret jug and I still felt empty. In other words, no amount of winds can fill whatever hole might be inside of you. And for Scotty, it's really very simple. His approach, it's faith, it's family, and then it's finishing first. Scotty is, you know, is not sort of your prototype. 20, 245 celebrity athlete. You're not going to see Scottie Scheffler show up at the red carpet at the Met Gala. You're not going to see Scottie Scheffler on a yacht in the Mediterranean. You're going to see Scottie Scheffler at tournaments contending and winning a lot. And when all is said and done, I think, because he has this balance, I think you're going to see Scottie as one of the greatest players of all time.
- [49:59]
Jonathan Lemire
Boy, and what a great difference that attitude, that approach Coach must have in massive tournaments like this. And he's not. His golf score is the antithesis of what we've heard for years. Some of the greatest NFL coaches have said, you are what the scoreboard says you are. So, yeah, that's pretty awesome. Let's talk about the Open, or as old guys like me would call it, the British Open. Now, even in America, we're starting to call it the Open Open. But some of the great, I love it is the Masters. Is the Masters. Is wonderful watching the Open, watching the British Open, always one of my favorite tournaments of the year. And the history. Talk about the history of the British Open, what it means. I mean, you go back to 77 and there was Watson and Nicholas and 84. It was, you know, it was set at St. Andrews. The history is extraordinary, even in our lifetime. Why does the British Open. Why does the Open mean so much to the game of golf?
- [51:11]
Rich Lerner
It's the oldest championship, goes to 1860. And I think, Joe, I love all the points that you made in a world that is an AI fueled world that, that's spinning faster than I can comprehend. This is as it always was. It is old courses in old towns with old pubs. It is played along the ground, into the wind, along dramatic, rugged coastlines on golf courses that are sort of what I would call. They're Botox free, they're not artificially enhanced like so many American beauties. They, there's comfort in it. When you mentioned, you know, men of our age, maybe we're having the avid dart moment, Joe. Well, you're up early anyway because of the show. But you know, you get up at that certain hour, you get up at that certain hour and you flip it on and there it is. The palette colors are different. It's gray and brown and green and sort of moody. And you see guys with beanies on and the umbrellas are, are up. And rain and wind add to the romance of it all in the same way that snow does at Lambeau Field for a Packers game in January. And then on top of that, we have our memories. The duel in the sun. Watson and Nicholas in 1977 and then Tiger at St. Andrews in 2000 and just keep going. So this is part of the very fabric of the game of golf.
- [52:42]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah. And you know, Jonathan Amir Rich, so right, that, that this is, this is, I mean, it's, it's man versus the elements. I mean, you know, they're in some of the most, they play golf in some of the most inhospitable weather. If the fans are really lucky and the golfers are really unfortunate, you'll have like 40 mile an hour winds, rain going sideways and these guys going, okay, am I really going to have to get it to iron out like they did get, you know, to get this ball down the fairway? It is, I mean, it is, it is the best golfers in the world in some of the toughest elements. And it's on, of course, links course, which just my favorite. It's, it's special, isn't it, Jonathan?
- [53:35]
David Ignatius
Oh, no question. Some of the best golfers in some of the worst weather at times. I love the description there from Richard describing the course as moody. That feels right. So rich. In our last moments here, we hit some of the headliners but talk to us about the rest of the field. Are there any maybe a sleeper or two you're keeping your eye on who might make a real run this weekend.
- [54:00]
Rich Lerner
I like a guy, Ryan Fox, to quote my partner Brando Chamblee, he's got guy who's kind of country strong. Looks like he can carry a washing machine up a couple of flights of stairs. He's from New Zealand. His dad is a famous rugby player, I think look for, you know, one of the seasoned guys very early. And it was interesting. Phil Mickelson popping up on the leaderboard. He's 55 years old. He's an Open champ from 2013. On the links courses where power is is not the overwhelming factor. It can be on America golf courses where guile and experience and nuance seem to matter a little bit more. The legends can sort of reach for greatness one last time, the way Tom Watson did in 2009. Greg Norman led at the age of 53 in 2008. Mickelson, by the way, we know this is a curious story. This was a beloved figure. He's the oldest major champion of all time, having having won the PGA back in 2021. And I would say this is an interesting point. Had he walked into the night at Kiawah four years ago, he would have been one of the five most popular players of all time. Instead, he took the Godfather offer from the Saudis. He tried to recruit players. He tried to take down the PGA Tour. And he's something of a pariah now. And I think a lot of people have mixed feelings about Phil, but. But he's back out doing what he's done so well. He is inarguably one of the greatest players of all time. But it's complicated, you know, when you assess the legacy of Phil Mickelson. But here he is again.
- [55:38]
Mika Brzezinski
All right, you can watch coverage of the Open championship today through Sunday on NBC, USA Network and Peacock, plus live studio coverage on Golf Channel, of course, course Golf Channel host Rich Lerner. Thank you very much for being on the show with us.
- [55:57]
Russell Moore
Thank you.
- [55:58]
Mika Brzezinski
We really appreciate it. Take care.
- [55:59]
Joe Scarborough
And still, MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, Nicole speaks with legendary songwriter and music producer Jimmy Jam. I treat it like a privilege to.
- [56:13]
Rich Lerner
Be able to do that, to be able to speak to people, to be.
- [56:15]
Joe Scarborough
Able to help raise money, help raise awareness.
- [56:17]
David Ignatius
Awareness.
- [56:17]
Joe Scarborough
But I get to do it from music. The best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now for early access and free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts.