RFK Jr. faces bipartisan backlash at hearing

Summary

Morning Joe — September 5, 2025

Episode: "RFK Jr. Faces Bipartisan Backlash at Hearing"

Hosts: Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Willie Geist
Panel: Jonathan Lemire, Katty Kay, Ali Vitale, Jonathan Martin, Jon Meacham, Graham Wood
Key Guests: Dr. Michael Osterholm (University of Minnesota, Center for Infectious Disease Research)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the extraordinary bipartisan criticism Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. faced during a heated Senate hearing, centering primarily on U.S. vaccine policy and turmoil at the CDC. With sharp questioning from both Republicans and Democrats, the discussion explores the wider implications for public health, the political calculations behind Kennedy’s appointment, and where the rift over COVID vaccine messaging fits in America’s political landscape. Alongside, the panel touches briefly on sports highlights, a new bipartisan movement in schools, and Senator Mitch McConnell’s warnings about American foreign and economic policy as echoes of pre-WWII isolationism grow.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bipartisan Senate Backlash Against RFK Jr.

• Theme: Rare, pointed criticism from both parties aimed at Secretary Kennedy for his public health stances, especially regarding vaccines.
• Notable Moment: Senators repeatedly pressed Kennedy on misinformation about vaccine safety and COVID death figures.
• Quotes:
  • “I don't know that I've ever seen a bipartisan drubbing of a Cabinet member from Republicans and Democrats alike, the likes of which we saw yesterday. It was brutal from beginning to end.” – Willie Geist [05:25]
  • “Democrats calling him a charlatan and a hazard to the health of the American people, some saying he should resign.” – Mika Brzezinski [06:00]
• Critical Exchange: Kennedy evaded direct confirmation of U.S. COVID death tolls and made disputed statements about vaccine risks, leading to open accusations of confusion and dishonesty.

2. Key Hearing Exchanges and Quotes

• Examples of Exchanges:
  • RFK Jr. on COVID Death Toll:
    • “Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID?” – Senator (Jonathan Martin)
      “I don't know how many...” – Robert F. Kennedy Jr. [06:31]
  • Pushback on Vaccine Claims:
    • “You're citing data that you won't produce to the public... You're just making things up to scare people. And it's a lie.” – Willie Geist [06:50–07:01]
    • “With respect, I do not think I'm the one making...” – RFK Jr.
      “You are right now.” – Geist [07:02–07:05]
• Republican Senators' Stance: Notably, Senators Barrasso and Cassidy (both physicians) openly criticized Kennedy, framing his statements as dangerous and counterproductive to public health.

3. Political Dynamics and Fallout

• RFK Jr.’s Appointment: Analysis points to a political deal, with Kennedy’s endorsement for Trump traded for his cabinet post.
  • “I think he cut a deal with Trump during the campaign last year... It’s a straightforward horse trading proposition.” – Jonathan Martin [13:37]
• Republican Frustration:
  • Many GOP senators, after pushing through cabinet confirmations, feel undermined when those same members “are turned out on their ear” or self-sabotage.
  • Senator Barrasso’s prominent criticism is framed as especially meaningful, signaling mounting GOP dissatisfaction.
• Trump’s Calculus: Despite Kennedy’s controversies, Trump appears to still support his HHS choice—at least for now—due to the Kennedy legacy and the politics of MAGA coalition management.

4. Wider Public Health Implications

• Pandemic Preparedness Warnings:
  • Dr. Michael Osterholm warns that the U.S., by undermining global and domestic public health infrastructure, is dangerously unprepared for future pandemics.
    • “I've never seen a more dangerous time for public health… When you add that all up right now, this is a serious challenge…” – Dr. Michael Osterholm [32:57]
  • Osterholm highlights that Kennedy’s apparent rollback of mRNA vaccine support could pose severe risks if another pandemic arises.
    • “The very program... is the MRNA technology that Mr. Kennedy has just basically withdrawn all the support for.” – Osterholm [34:09]
• Vaccine Access and Messaging:
  • Confusion about who should receive vaccines increases barriers for parents and providers; Osterholm reveals Kennedy’s claims misrepresent the available scientific literature.
    • “We have 511 such studies that have been published. And he knows this, and he still elects to say these things.” – Osterholm [35:05]

5. Media and Political Reaction

• Wall Street Journal Editorial: Critiques Kennedy for “warped memory” and highlights Vice President J.D. Vance’s attempted political defense as misleading and inflammatory.
  • “Mr. Vance is trying to rally Republicans to RFK’s side by framing this dispute in a polarized, partisan framework... but it won’t win over anyone paying attention.” – Mika Brzezinski citing WSJ [18:17]
• Panel Consensus: Kennedy’s positions are seen as perilous, not just politically but substantively, with bipartisan elite and expert condemnation.

6. Historical and Cultural Context

• Vaccine Skepticism Roots:
  • Jon Meacham traces current vaccine denialism to Cold War paranoia and the John Birch Society, lamenting the breakdown of America’s “democratic covenant.”
    • “Vaccines… are like traffic rules… you give up a little bit of your liberty in order to protect the safety of the many.” – Meacham [24:16]
• Shifts in Political Identity and Vaccine Attitudes:
  • The panel traces how anti-vaccine sentiment, once associated with the left, has been weaponized by recent far-right movements for political gain—despite strong polling support for vaccines among the wider public, including much of the GOP base.
    • “80% of Americans agree that there should be vaccine mandates for children going to school… That includes 68% of Republicans and 66% of people who identify themselves as MAGA.” – Mika Brzezinski [29:21]

7. Broader News Briefs and Memorable Moments

• Bipartisan School Cell Phone Bans:

  • Jonathan Martin discusses the surprising rise of “bell-to-bell” phone bans in schools, uniting red and blue states—a rare bipartisan issue.
    • “This is an issue that has united liberal and conservative governors alike. There’s no partisan gap here that I can see.” – Jonathan Martin [36:53]
  • Mika shares her own family example, emphasizing positive changes in students' behavior.
    • “We’re sitting around the lunchroom talking to each other. Imagine that.” – Mika Brzezinski [39:19]

• Mitch McConnell’s Warning on Isolationism:

  • McConnell draws parallels to pre-WWII America, warning that current tariffs and “America First” rhetoric echo the dangerous isolationism of the 1930s.
    • “There are certain similarities right now to the 30s… Those who were totally anxious to stay out of all of what was going on in Europe were called America First. Sound familiar?” – McConnell via Mika Brzezinski [48:06]
  • Jon Meacham champions McConnell's legacy, noting the historical importance of his dissent.

• Sports & Culture Sidebars:

  • Panelists recap tennis highlights from the US Open and a wild Eagles-Cowboys NFL opener, injecting humor and personal asides (e.g., Jon Meacham’s “over-80” tennis achievements).

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Willie Geist:

  • “A bipartisan drubbing of a Cabinet member… brutal from beginning to end.” [05:25]

• Jonathan Martin:

  • “I think Kennedy’s facing profound challenges because… Trump is loyal to Trump. If you’re getting bad coverage... he eventually is going to get tired of you.” [13:37]

• Dr. Michael Osterholm:

  • “I've never seen a more dangerous time for public health… that threatens the very public health structure that we've so relied upon for the last hundred years.” [32:57]

• Mika Brzezinski:

  • “80% of Americans agree there should be vaccine mandates for children going to school… including 68% of Republicans.” [29:21]

• Jon Meacham:

  • “Vaccines... are like traffic rules... you give up a little bit of your liberty in order to protect the safety of the many.” [24:16]

• Mitch McConnell (via Mika):

  • “There are certain similarities right now to the 30s. Herbert Hoover signed the Smoot-Hawley Tariff Bill in 1930... Those who were totally anxious to stay out of all of what was going on in Europe were called America First. Sound familiar?” [48:06]

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Segment Timestamps

• [05:25] – Senators’ bipartisan criticism of RFK Jr.
• [06:31] – Key hearing clips, confusion/denial on vaccine & COVID death stats
• [13:37] – Jonathan Martin on RFK-Trump political deal and Republican frustration
• [18:17] – Wall Street Journal and Vice President Vance’s defense of Kennedy
• [24:16] – Jon Meacham’s historical analysis of vaccine skepticism
• [29:21] – Polling on vaccine mandates and shifting political attitudes
• [32:57] – Dr. Osterholm on pandemic preparedness and Kennedy’s impact
• [36:53] – Jonathan Martin on bipartisan cell phone bans in schools
• [48:06] – McConnell’s isolationism warning and panel reflections

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Conclusion & Takeaway

This episode powerfully illustrates a rare moment of bipartisan unity—not in calm, but in sharp rebuke of a controversial HHS Secretary. The panel dissects not just the immediate hearing drama, but the deeper anxieties it has unleashed around public health, the future of vaccine policy, and the shifting contours of American political identity. With expert insight and pointed commentary, the episode underscores a precarious moment for public trust in health institutions—and signals the growing tension, even within the party of government, over science, leadership, and America’s role on the world stage.

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For listeners who missed the episode, this summary provides a roadmap of every critical point, memorable exchange, and broader context discussed.

Transcript

[Joe Scarborough]

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[Willie Geist]

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[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Do you agree with me that the president, that the president deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed? Absolutely, Senator. Phenomenal. Let me ask you, but you just told Senator Bennett that the COVID vaccine killed more people than Covid.

[Jon Meacham]

Would you accept the fact that a.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Million Americans died from COVID I don't know how many died.

[Mika Brzezinski]

You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

You don't have any idea how many.

[Jon Meacham]

Americans died from COVID I don't think.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Anybody knows that because the there was so much data chaos coming out of the cdc.

[Jonathan Martin]

Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the high standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. If we're going to make America healthy again, we can't allow public health to be undermined.

[Mika Brzezinski]

HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Getting a bipartisan grilling yesterday on Capitol Hill amid turmoil at the CDC and controversial changes to vaccine policies. We'll have much more from that hearing in just a moment. Also ahead, we will dig into the big economic news of the day as the August jobs report is due out this morning. President Trump, though, is saying don't believe the numbers, saying that even before they come out. And an update from the US Open where American Amanda Anisimova has made it to her second consecutive Grand Slam final. There will be an American at the final of the U.S. open coming up tomorrow. Good morning. Welcome to Morning Joe. It is Friday, September 5th. Joe, you were there at the U.S. open. Watch a little tennis yesterday. How was it?

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, well, you know, we usually don't go out on school nights. Awfully late being out there, but I was invited by Donnie Deutch and as you know, Donnie jacked up right now on Creatine. So when he invites you, you really have to go. But extraordinary. I mean, you go there, we don't get out there very much. And as you know, it's quite an event. And you're just right there. Everything, you're right there on top of the tennis players, the arena. And it was just a great match, by the way. We saw Al, Al Roker and Laura Jarrett. They were, they were there and so many other people that we knew watching, watching the match, but a great match. And Jessica Pegula almost pulled it out. But wow, two incredible matches last night, two great matches.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And you get another lineup tonight for the men's semifinal. You get Alcaraz against Djok. And then of course, Jannik Sinner, who's steamrolling his way through the tournament so far. So always fun out in Queens watching this tournament. Another big night tonight. We'll have more highlights coming up a little bit later. With us this morning, the co host of our fourth hour, staff writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire, US special correspondent for BBC News and host of the Rest Is Politics podcast, Katty Kay, the host of Way Too early, msnbc, senior Capitol Hill correspondent Ali Vitale, politics bureau chief and senior political columnist of Politico, Jonathan Martin and Rogers chair in the American presidency. At the unbeaten so far this year, Vanderbilt University historian Jon Meacham. Full house for us this morning, Joe.

[Willie Geist]

I mean, Joe, Jon Meacham, obviously associated with the unbeaten Vandy Commodores also, though, wants us to know he's unbeaten at the Belmeade country Club over 80 tennis tournament that they try to start at the same time time as the US Open. And Willie, let me tell you something. They come at him, he just swats them away. He, he, yeah, he beat somebody yesterday. It was pretty incredible in a walker that used a walker. But Meacham at the same time jumped over the mat, you know, fingers in his face going, there's a reason why I've been the over 80 bell me champ for 10 years now.

[Jon Meacham]

I just want a quick fact check. Unbeaten is a little strong and you don't want to drop because you don't want to be the last guy who returns a ball to somebody. So it's a very complicated emotion.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Meacham got the waiver into the over 80 again. All right, we'll tackle some more tennis, John, a little bit later.

[Willie Geist]

I'm not sure how he does that. I'm not sure how he does it, I gotta say. By the way, I been watching what's happening on Capitol Hill for a long time now, Willie. I don't know that I've ever seen a bipartisan drubbing of a Cabinet member from Republicans and Democrats alike, the likes of which we saw yesterday. It was brutal from beginning to end. Some people even calling RFK Jr. The Kalyn DeBoer of Trump's cabinet. So a really, really bad day.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I knew we were coming back to Alabama somehow. And you got us there. Yeah. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Faced pointed questions, to put it mildly, from lawmakers on both sides of the aisle during that heated hearing yesterday. Over the course of about three hours, members of the Senate Finance Committee grilled Kennedy on vaccine policy and the chaos at the CDC right now. Democrats calling him a charlatan and a hazard to the health of the American people, some of saying he should resign.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Do you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID I don't know how many. I feel Secretary of Health and Human Services doesn't know how many Americans died.

[Willie Geist]

From COVID Know if the vaccine helped prevent any deaths.

[Mika Brzezinski]

And you are sitting as Secretary of.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Health and Human Services.

[Willie Geist]

How can you be that ignorant? You are citing data that you won't produce to the public.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

You're just making things.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Objecting.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

You're making things up to scare people. And it's a lie.

[Willie Geist]

I don't think. I don't.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

With respect, I do not think I'm the one making.

[Willie Geist]

You are right now.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Senator.

[Mika Brzezinski]

I'm asking the questions.

[Jonathan Martin]

I'm asking the questions for Mr. Kennedy on behalf of parents and schools and.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Teachers all over the United States of.

[Jonathan Martin]

America who deserve so much better than your leadership.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

That's what this conversation is about, Senator.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Chairman. Senator.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

They deserve the truth, and that's what we're going to give them for the first time in the history of that agency.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Well, not just the Democrats, though, who went after Kennedy. Several Republicans, including two physicians. Two physicians who voted to confirm him, also pressed Kennedy on a number of issues.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Do you agree with me that the President. That the President deserves a Nobel Prize.

[Jonathan Martin]

For Operation Warp Speed?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Yeah, absolutely. Let me ask you. But you just told Senator Bennett that the COVID vaccine killed more people than Covet. Wait, that was a statement. I did not say that. Okay, then let me ask, because you also. Senator, I just want to make clear. I did not say. We'll check. You also told Senator Wyden at the outset that you didn't want to take vaccines away from people. And as I conclude, I would like to say this because of the conflicting recommendations made by about COVID This is from Eric Erickson, good conservative out of Atlanta, Georgia, occasionally gives me help. My wife has stage four lung cancer. She is one of the people the COVID vaccine actually helps. Thanks to the current mess at hhs, CVS is unable to get our vaccine. I would say effectively, we're denying people vaccine.

[Jon Meacham]

Senator Catwell, I. Iraq.

[Jonathan Martin]

I believe one of President Trump's greatest achievements was his bold and successful actions on Covid. When faced with a global pandemic, he didn't back down. He was determined to find a cure. And through operation, warp speed and a vaccine was developed that distributed quickly, safely, effectively. And I believe it saved many, many lives. I think it's a model of American ingenuity and public private partnership.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

I can't conclude from the discussion today where you are on warp speed, so I would like a definitive statement on exactly where you are. Was it good? Was it bad? Were the things that worked? Were the things that didn't work? I can't discern that from what you said here. I for one think that it was a signature accomplishment of President Trump and the MRNA platform is something I agree with that. I look forward to you giving us a detailed statement on exactly where you are with warp speed.

[Jonathan Martin]

I support vaccines. I'm a doctor. Vaccines work. Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. The public has seen measles outbreaks, leadership of the National Institute of Health questioning the use of MRNA vaccines, the recently confirmed director of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention fired. Americans don't know who to rely on. If we're going to make America healthy again. We can't allow public health to be undermined. So could you explain what steps you're going to be taking to ensure vaccine guidance is clear, evidence based and trustworthy?

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

We're going to make it clear, evidence based and trustworthy for the first time in history. I don't see how you go over four weeks from a public health expert with unimpeachable scientific credentials, a longtime champion of Maha values, caring and compassionate and brilliant microbiologist, and four weeks later, fire her because at least the public reports say, because she refused to fire people that work for her. So as somebody who advised executives on hiring strategies, number one, I would suggest in the interview you ask them if they're truthful rather than four weeks after we took the time of the US Senate to confirm the person just for the future nominee that we're going to have to consider.

[Mika Brzezinski]

So a lot in there, Joe. By the way, Senators Barrasso and Cassidy are the two medical doctors, two of them you saw grilling Kennedy there, asking him about Operation Warp Speed, which even Donald Trump has been touting within the last couple of days as one of his great achievements and an interesting and effective strategy by Republicans, putting Kennedy in the box of saying, do you agree that what President Trump, the guy who gave you your job, did is worthy of the Nobel Prize or was successful and got him to at least say that, which then boxes him in when he talks about the vaccine. And he did, we want to point out in 2020, call the COVID vaccine the deadliest vaccine ever made. That's a direct quote from Bobby Kennedy Jr. So a lot to sift through there, Joe.

[Willie Geist]

A lot of sift through. I mean, as the senators said themselves, a lot of lies. He just lied repeatedly, according to the senators, according to the Republicans. And it is just really unbelievable, J Mart, that you would actually have a cabinet member for Donald Trump undermine what all of those senators, Republican and Democratic alike, were saying could have been Donald Trump's greatest achievement in Operation Warp Speed, undermining it and saying more people died from Donald Trump's actions than from COVID itself. And, you know, it would be one thing, you know, we always talk about, oh, well, you know, the Republican Party believes this, so they're scared of the Republican Party. You know, these Republican senators were quoting show polls that showed that the overwhelming majority of Republicans support vaccines. Overwhelming majority of Americans believe the COVID vaccine saved lives. And yet you have this very, very small slice of the Republican electorate running with conspiracy theories and then RFK Jr. Who, according to Republicans, are putting children's lives in danger. So why he is at HHS remains, it remains a question that there doesn't seem to be any logical answer to.

[Jonathan Martin]

Well, I think he cut a deal with Trump during the campaign last year in which he would endorse Trump and would get this plum position in the administration. I think it's a basically straightforward horse trading proposition. But, Joe, as you know, Trump is loyal to Trump. And if you're getting bad coverage and you're getting, you know, bad juju on Trump, he eventually is going to get tired of you. So I think Kennedy's facing profound challenges because of that. Just real fast, let me pull back the curtain on why I think there is so much hostility from the Senate Republicans. You know, they spent the first Half of the year basically without recess. And in D.C. mostly to confirm members of Trump's Cabinet. Right. And they got through quite a few cabinet members and they confirmed some folks who have now been basically turned out on their ear after a weeks long tenure. So I think they're frustrated because of that. You know, here we are confirming your guys, then you push them out a half an hour later. It's embarrassing and frankly humiliating for us. The biggest news I thought in those clips you played was the role of, of John Barrasso. This is hugely important. John Barrasso is not just a Trump supporter. Certainly he's the number two ranking Senate Republican. He's the Republican whip. And for him to sit up there reading from prepared remarks that was not off the cuff. He knew what he was doing. It was a planned attack. To sit and read those remarks from Wyoming, by the way, not exactly the Upper west side of Manhattan, I thought was very significant and reflected the profound frustration in the Senate GOP caucus about Kennedy and also just about confirming these folks who Trump then fires two weeks later.

[Ali Vitale]

Yeah, to J Mart's point, President Trump, his affections only go so far and they can change on a dime. But right now he's standing with Kennedy. He likes the Kennedy name, the Kennedy legacy, he likes that endorsement. He likes the Kennedys working for him. People I've talked to in the White House say his view on Kennedy has not changed to this point. Also, there's a sort of a stubbornness here. We know Trump's first term was marked by a lot of turnover and it's really a point of pride for this administration that we haven't seen that yet, except for the one national security adviser who was shown the door early. Otherwise he's standing by his pick. So Ali Vitale, though, it is still so striking as we're documenting here, that Republicans are willing to stand up to a Trump pick, really give it to Kennedy yesterday, and we can't underscore this enough how dangerous a lot of what he said was, was we shouldn't lose that while we analyze the politics of it. But what do you think here? Is this, is this, where do we go? Is there going to be such pressure from the Hill? Is this another moment where maybe, maybe we've seen a couple of them where the GOP is willing to stand up to Trump and say we're not just going to take everything you put our way?

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, I think J Mart's read was my read because when I saw Barrasso, not just Cassidy, who had already been pretty vocal about the fact that he had concerns and whatever else. But the fact that Barrasso was willing to, in prepared remarks say what he said, I think is important. You saw a lot of those senators bringing in their prior history from before they came to Congress. Senator Michael Bennett, for example, was the superintendent of the Denver Area School District. So when he says, I'm speaking on behalf of parents and students, he literally has been in those roles before. He knows what it means when places like Florida get rid of vaccine mandates and the impact of that on schools and on students. So that's an important piece of it. But I think when you talk about what happens next, probably nothing, right? I mean, pressure is important. You talk to public health officials, as I have, they say that the pressure is important to remind people of what you said. Lemire, that this dangerous talk from the head of the hhs. But then at the same time, these members had every opportunity to voice their concerns with Kennedy, which they had then and still clearly have now by not voting for him. And they all ultimately fell in line. And that's where the politics and the public health are so inextricably linked here. The other politics piece, I think that is important when we consider the role of RFK Jr. And why he was able to carve out such a plum role as J Mart detailed. It's because the MAHA coalition is a sort of weird coal within maga. That does stand as the reason why Trump, even on his signature achievement of Operation Warp Speed, does tend to waffle even in truth Social post this week saying, yes, I thought it was effective, but the pharmaceutical companies should show why it was effective. He's waffled on this before and it's because RFK controls a pretty important sect of the MAGA base, politically speaking.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Yeah.

[Ali Vitale]

And Willie, we have seen President Trump on a number of occasions really cater to the fringes of his political base. He doesn't necessarily need them, but he's worried about alienating them. They're small, but they're loud.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah. The Wall Street Journal is writing about all this. Its editorial board just this morning writing RFK Jr. S Operation Warped Memory. That's the title of the piece. The editorial board writes this Mr. Kennedy struggled to defend his inconsistencies. Vice President J.D. vance tried to ride to Mr. Kennedy's defense writing on social media. When I see all these senators trying to lecture and gotcha Bobby Kennedy today, all I can think is you. You all support off label untested and irreversible hormonal therapies for children mutilating our kids and enriching Big Pharma. You're full of blank and everyone knows it. That's a tweet from the Vice President, United States. The Wall Street Journal writes, classy as ever, Mr. Vice President. None of this is true of Dr. Cassidy, Dr. Barrasso and other senators. And the Vice president knows it. Mr. Vance is trying to rally Republicans to RFK side by framing this dispute in a polarized partisan framework, either or us them. That may serve his political purposes as he courts rfk supporters with 2028 in mind, but it won't win over anyone paying attention to the health Secretary's contradictions as he attacks life saving vaccines. And we should point out, as he tried to say yesterday in one of those exchanges with a Republican Senator Caddy, that no, no, I like MRNA vaccines. Well, under his leadership, the HHS just pulled back half a billion dollars in funding to support the development of those very vaccines.

[Graham Wood]

I mean, in some ways it was a frustrating hearing because you had a lot of slipperiness going on, right? You had the secretary saying that he supported MRNA while we know he's doing something else. He's saying that, yes, Covid vaccines will be available to everybody, but also saying at the same time, but it's not recommended for certain people who are healthy, which then means that they may not be available in pharmacies, insurers may not have it. So I think that you heard some of that frustration from the senators who felt that they were hearing one thing when another thing was being done. But I agree with JMAR and Ali. The most important criticism was from Senator Barrasso, who is close to the Vice President, who is close to the White House, he would not have been out there freelancing. And for him to use that platform, so rare for him to step out of line against the White House, for him to decide to use that platform to do that, you wonder, so what was he trying to do? Is he trying to get the White House to a position where the Secretary's position is no longer tenable? Why was he doing that? If there really isn't going to be any result from this, why would he stick his neck out in that way? Joe?

[Willie Geist]

Well, and you know, it's just this is not a political game. And some people in the White House may think it is, some people around Kennedy may think it is. It's not a political game. This is serious. Life or death matters are involved here. And just as Senator Cassidy said, he quoted Eric Erickson who said his wife is a stage 4 lung cancer survivor and a patient. And she needs the COVID vaccine. She can't get it now from CVS because of Senator Kennedy. Now we know, Eric, multiply that thousands and thousands of times. That's happening all over America. And children are getting sick from diseases that they haven't had in years that have been eradicated because of one person at the department of hhs. And the question is, if Republicans are against him, if Democrats are against him, how long does he stay there? And you know, this is. Jon Meacham is just really surreal. You know, we get numbed by everything that has been thrown our way over the past decade. But yesterday was particularly surreal when you had somebody lying about just facts, lying about medicine, lying about medical research, lying about what we all knew, lying about what he knew when he got every one of his children vaccinated when they were young, but is now saying, it's okay for my children but not for your children. And I just, we always ask you to find parallels. But you know, I guess the know nothings were backward looking. They were nativist, they wanted to go back in time. They were fueled by fear, by conspiracy theories, by lies. And my God, J.D. vance, I'm so glad the Wall Street Journal editorial page called him out yesterday, basically. J.D. vance, one of the dumbest things that, you know, this administration always does, this MAGA base always does, is they take an issue like this and say, oh, you must be with, like trans. You must be with mutilating children for surgeries when they're transitioning. He did that? Yes. Total lies. He really saying that about John Barrasso? Is he really saying that about Bill Cassidy? Is he really saying that about the 75% of Republicans who oppose what RFK juniors think? Does J.D. vance really think that 75% of Republicans support like trans operations for minors? Because that's what he said yesterday. And I'm so glad the walls. There's only so much stupidity you can put up with. I'm so glad the Wall Street Journal editorial page called him out, but I know it's going to be hard. I mean, but outside of the know nothings, what other political movement has, has produced such backward looking stupidity?

[Jon Meacham]

Well, the, the vaccine, was it hesitancy? Denial? Not even hesitancy, I guess in some ways comes out of the John Birch Society, comes out of the Cold War paranoia that was fermented in the 50s and really exploded in the 60s. And what I think we're, in fact, I think Secretary Kennedy's against the fluoridation of water, which was A literal part of the John Birch Society as well. And, you know, I think vaccines are like, and don't hold me to exactly this analogy. It's a little bit like traffic rules, right? You kind of don't have an option of, well, I'm going to stop or not stop at that light because. Not because it's your, you know, it's part of the social contract that you give up a little bit of your liberty in order to protect the safety of the many. And I think in a huge way, what we're dealing with in the country, broadly put, is a breakdown of lowercase, the Democratic covenant. And this is the most vivid example of that. People like me and, you know, you and I talk about this a lot, talk about, you know, the constitutional order and the Declaration of Independence and responsible citizenship. And I love talking about that almost as much as I love the drop shot. But this is one where an actual intersection with daily reality. And I was going to ask you what's going on in Florida, which I was just, I don't want to say puzzled by, but it did seem a little bit out of the blue just to say, hey, we're going to pull out of what is decade upon decade upon decade of public health.

[Willie Geist]

And again, it's just a race to the bottom. And these people that are saying it now vaccinated their own children, I guarantee you were the first in line to get the COVID vaccine shots. In fact, before Ron DeSantis, like, put his finger in the wind to see which way the political winds were blowing, he was rushing to veterans across the state of Florida so they could get the COVID vaccine shots first. And then suddenly he figured out that a small subset of his political party were against vaccines, were against Covid vaccines. And now these politicians, these HHS secretaries who made sure their own families got the vaccines and got the boosters, are now the first in line Willie to be saying, oh, you know, don't get, you know, for, again, political purposes, they're taking care of their own families, they're making sure their own family's safe, and then they're spreading this lie to other families. And just, just for those people that don't know, just to put this in political perspective, before this became an issue for extremists on the far right post Covid, it was Republicans, it was conservatives, it was people in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, West Virginia that were making fun of the hippies in San Francisco and Berkeley who were anti vaxxers. It wasn't that long ago that all the anti vaxxers were like derided as left wing freaks. And I've said it before, it bears repeating this morning. And those southern conservative states that are doing things like Florida now or talking about doing things like Florida now, they were this. They were the first states and some of the only states in America that refuse to have religious exemptions for vaccines. They said it's so important for our children, it's so important for their health that there will be no religious exemptions. And then a group of extremists come in, they impact the MAGA base and then RFK Jr comes in, they start spreading these lies and conspiracy theories and now suddenly it's not the hippies in Berkeley, it's the fat old politicians in the Deep south, the boss hogs in the deep south that are now trying to take vaccines away from little children. And again, after making sure all of their children got the same vaccines.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah. And the fleet Surgeon General in Florida who made that announcement the other day is in league with Bobby Kennedy Jr. As being a vaccine skeptic. So these people who were viewed as quacks perhaps, or conspiratorial at best now have been elevated to these positions of power. And just to underline your point about the polling, Harvard School of Public Health poll this summer. Excuse me, 80. 80% of Americans. 80% of Americans agree that there should be vaccine mandates for children going to school. That includes 68% of Republicans and 66% of people who identify themselves as MAGA. Strong supporters of President Trump and his agenda. Two thirds of them believe there should be mandates. And even the people who don't think there should be aren't worried about the safety of the vaccines. They just think it should be a parent's choice. So important to understand the numbers here. Coming up next, we're going to speak to a leading medical expert about all of this. He's also warning about our preparation now for future deadly pandemics. Plus, J Mart writes in his latest piece, there's only one true bipartisan issue left. We'll tell you what that is when Morning Joe comes right back.

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[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Live.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Picture the sun coming up over the United States Capitol 631 on this Friday morning. That is where senators grilled RFK Jr. Yesterday about the COVID 19 pandemic. Our next guest is looking at the possible public health dangers ahead under Kennedy's leadership. Joining us now, director of the University of Minnesota center for infectious disease research, Dr. Michael Osterholm. He's out with a new book, the Big How We Must Prepare for future deadly pandemics. Dr. Osterholm, it's great to have you back with us. You were so instrumental in guiding us through the pandemic through all those years. So fascinated to talk about your book. But I'm also curious, as a physician and given your area of expertise, what you made of what we saw yesterday on Capitol Hill in the testimony from RFK Jr.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

I think, first of all, cutting through the political theater, I have to say in my 50 years in the business, I've never seen a more dangerous time for public health. We're watching this destruction not just in this country, but throughout the world, largely because the U.S. pullback on such things as PEPFAR, USAID, being part of the WHO. When you add that all up right now, this is a serious challenge that I don't think people really realize the extent to which that threatens the very public health structure that that we've so relied upon for the last hundred years.

[Graham Wood]

Yeah. And Doctor, what you're writing about is the degradation of the public health service that we saw on display yesterday up on Capitol Hill. At the same time that we could be facing something as a planet More serious, you're saying, than the COVID epidemic that we all thought was the big one.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

And in fact, what people have to understand is we are constantly in a battle with microbes. And if you look at all the wars of the last century, which of course have been significant in terms of what they've done, microbes still kill more people. And we don't really realize that that war that we have, you can never let up on. And just as an example of why what's happening right now is so relevant to this is if we had an influenza pandemic right now, which we could easily have one today, we have only the capability to make vaccine for about a quarter of the world's population. 12 to 15 months after in fact, the pandemic begins, millions would die, would never have access to the vaccine. The very program that was likely our gift to get out of that is the MRNA technology that Mr. Kennedy has just basically withdrawn all the support for. And so if we had that technology, we could probably make enough doses of vaccine in the first year to vaccinate.

[Graham Wood]

The whole world on vaccines. And what we heard yesterday, one of the things that seemed to need some clarifying was whether at one point Mr. Kennedy was saying, yes, everybody has access to vaccines who want them. And the senators were saying, well, hold on a second. If you're saying that only healthy people need the vaccine, then that actually starts putting a chill on the system in providing those vaccines. Can you talk about that a little bit more? Because I thought that needed some clarification.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

You know, he tries to nuance this in such a way as it makes it sound like it's clear, but it's not. There's great confusion right now. Not only can I get a vaccine, but who will pay for it? You know, this past year we had over 160 kids in this country die from COVID Most of those individuals had no known risk factor for having serious illness. So if I'm a parent today, I'm not being told I have to vaccinate my child. But please don't take the vaccine away from me if in fact I want to do that. And right now, in this country, according to Mr. Kennedy's guidelines, you could not get a vaccine for a younger child. It would be something that many of the doctors and pharmacists who administer vaccines said, I can't do that because it's not something permitted. So it's much more than just a recommendation. He is putting barriers into this. He's also creating great doubt. Yesterday he said, again, that there's only one study that's ever been done that's looked at childhood vaccines from the standpoint of what we call a randomized control, where half the kids get the vaccine, half get a placebo, nobody knows who, and therefore, at the end, basically, you can really rely on those data. We have 511 such studies that have been published. And he knows this. He knows this, and he still elects to say these things. And that's hard because that's what's confusing the public right now.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, it's hard. It's extraordinarily dangerous. And the new book, the Big One, how We Must Prepare for Future Deadly Pandemics, is out now. Director of the University of Minnesota center for Infectious Disease research, as always, Dr. Michael Osterholm. Thank you so much for being.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

Thank you.

[Willie Geist]

Jonathan Martin, you have a new piece for Politico saying that there's only one true bipartisan issue left. Tell us about it.

[Jonathan Martin]

Well, it's an amazing story, I think should not that should have gotten more attention. That hasn't in part because this is happening in state capitals, Joe, not in Washington, D.C. but that is the movement to ban these things. Cell phones, sorry, kids, you can't have these during a school day any longer. This is taking off in state after state, Bell to Bell bans. And Joe, what is so fascinating about this, we're in this extraordinarily tribal moment, deep blue red divisions. This is an issue that has united liberal and conservative governors alike. There's no partisan gap here that I can see. Sarah Huckabee Sanders has been an evangelist for this in Arkansas. Phil Murphy, Kathy Hochul in Jersey and New York have as well, trying to get Bell to Bell bans done. And I think there's a feeling, Joe, that giving kids access to phones around the clock is just detrimental, not just to their education, but their social growth and development. And a lot of this goes back to a book called the Anxious Generation, written by NYU guy named Jonathan Haidt, which has been on the bestseller list of the New York Times. Like Harry Potter level length, I think 76 straight weeks or something like that. It came out in March of 2024. As of this week, it was back to number one on the list because parents everywhere, no matter if they're from the deepest blue or deepest red parts of the country, are concerned about their kids and have come to believe that phones are not healthy in classrooms. So it's a little bit of a sort of, I think, happy story at a moment of so much despair in our country's Politics.

[Willie Geist]

Boy, and things have changed. I mean, back when I was in school, you couldn't have clackers or Nerf lawn darts. Now phones Politics bureau in chief and senior political columnist at Politico, Jonathan Martin. Thank you. I mean, can you believe, Willie, that Nerf used to have lawn darts like you talk about, just, just playing with fire. That's pretty darn dangerous. But, you know, I got to say about the phones and about this story, I think my question's always been why in the world did any principal, why in the world did any school board, why in the world did any teacher ever let kids take phones into schools anyway? They're there to learn, not to scroll down Instagram.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, it's easy to forget, as popular as this is now, and Jonathan's right about that, and Jonathan Haidt's book certainly had a lot to do. There's a wake up call to parents everywhere about the damage phones are doing to our kids. But a couple of years ago, this was kind of controversial. What about safety? What if there's a school shooting? And then you had public safety officials and police coming out and saying it's actually more dangerous during an event like that to have kids on their phones and not listening to the people giving them instructions. So I can say this year at my son's school, it's taken hold, this new rule of no phones. And I asked how it's going, he goes, yeah, it's great. We're sitting around the lunchroom talking to each other. Imagine that. And they have their phones. They can keep them in their backpack if they want to. They just can't come out during the, the school day. And if it does come out, you get in trouble. So it's not the end of the world. We can do this. Put the phones away during school. And I think it's going to work. You're seeing it all over the place. J Mart, thanks so much. Coming up, Israel and the United States delivered a blow to Iran's nuclear program back in June. Our next guest, though, says the country could come back even stronger. The Atlantic's Graham Wood joins us to explain his new piece, the Neighbor from Hell. Morning Joe's coming right back.

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[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

The American people are basically telling the.

[Graham Wood]

President that they are not okay with any of this.

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[Willie Geist]

Timeouts, so plenty of run options available for Sirianni and Kevin Petullo, the offensive.

[Jonathan Martin]

Coordina as they run Barkley inside Saquon Touchdown. Philadelphia on top.

[Mika Brzezinski]

That is Saquon Barkley dancing, then powering his way into the end zone, carrying the Eagles to the lead just before halftime last night, quarterback Jalen Hurts rushed for a couple of touchdowns of his own. The reigning super bowl champs held off the Dallas Cowboys to kick off their title defense with a win in last night's regular season season opener in Philly. On the other side of the ball, Cowboys star receiver CD Lamb 7 catches, 110 yards, but failed to reel in a pair of big passes on the final drive for Dallas. The Eagles beat the Cowboys 24 20. The game though probably remembered for this bizarre moment before the first play of the game, Eagles defensive tackle Jalen Carter ejected for spitting on Cowboys quarterback Dak Prescott. What are you doing? This is during an injury delay after the opening kicko. Video later showed Prescott spitting in the direction of Carter and the Eagles defense before Carter spit on him. After the game, Carter called his actions a mistake, promised it will not happen again. NFL opening weekend continues tonight in Brazil, where the Kansas City Chiefs drive for an eighth consecutive win over the Los Angeles Chargers. So Joe, kind of a weird game in Philly last night. You had a big lightning delay in the second half kick pushed the game late into the night. Not much happened in the second half, three points scored between the two teams. Dallas certainly had a chance to win it there on that final drive, but we're watching Jalen Carter walk off the field before the first play going, what happened? And then NBC gets the replays, spits right in the chest of Dak Prescott.

[Willie Geist]

Yeah, it's absolutely unbelievable. You'd never see anything like this. I mean, I will say it's one of the things that I would fear might happen to a senior at the Belmead Country Club if they ever reached one of Meacham's drop shops. They would find themselves. We would. We'd find they would quickly find themselves disintermediated from the rules and the etiquette and the niceties, people. And, and the players of Bell, Mead, John Meacham.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Joe, Joe, Joe.

[Jon Meacham]

Basically what we're talking about here is a chicken salad attack. You know, you gotta. You gotta figure out a way to use pimento cheese and chicken salad in.

[Willie Geist]

Kind of a way. Okay. Well, again, these are the strange and peculiar ways of the Belmonte Country Club, which simple country lawyers like myself have no knowledge of. But I will say this, John Lemire, if you spit quarterback before the beginning of your season opener, you're going to be ejected by the referees. And you know it. Really? I think it had an impact in the game because the Dallas Cowboys were able to move the ball much better without one of the Eagles best defensive players on the field. Just extraordinarily reckless. No excuse for it. He should get at least a two game suspension from the NFL for this.

[Ali Vitale]

In the first six seconds of the NFL's triumphant return, we had a player blow out his knee, be out for the year, and now the Eagles star defensive lineman spit at the quarterback and get ejected. I agree. I think this won't be the only game he misses. And I believe if next week is a Super bowl rematch between the Eagles and the Chiefs, Carter likely won't play there. I mean, just ridiculous. He was apologetic afterwards. There was a. Dak Prescott apparently told Cowboys coaches later that he was simply talking to one of his teammates, realized he needed to spit on the grass, and Carter thought that was at him and therefore Carter retaliated. Just ridiculous. But you're right. The Cowboys were able to move the ball early. They stalled out in the second half. I think the Eagles defense, which already lost some players, might not be quite as fearsome as last year. They certainly missed Carter last night, but at the end of the day, it's Saquon Barkley. And it's also Jalen hurts and he the way he can run the ball, Willie. They can extend these drives, you know.

[Robert F. Kennedy Jr.]

With the tush push.

[Ali Vitale]

They're going to get every fourth and short. Eagles still very formidable in kind of a ragged game last night.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah, it was a weird game, but boy, the Eagles are going to be tough again this year. Jalen hurts. He can do everything. Let's turn back to the tennis we talked about a minute ago at the US Opening Queens. American Amanda Anisimova battling from a set down to beat Naomi Osaka in their semifinal match last night. Reaching her second, second Grand Slam final in a row, the eighth seeded Anisimova will now face the world's number one player, Aryna Sabalenka for the US Open title. That's tomorrow. That comes after Sabalenka defeated four seeded American Jessica Pegula in three sets early yesterday. That was a rematch of last year's final. The matchup for the men's final on Sunday will be decided in a pair of semifinal matches beginning this afternoon. A couple of great ones too here. Caddy, Djokovic and Alcaraz. And then you've got Jannik, Sinner. I mean, there's so much talk about Alcaraz and Djokovic for good reason. But Sinner meanwhile is truly just steamrolling his way through this tournament.

[Graham Wood]

Yeah, I mean that Djokovic, Alcaraz could easily be the final, right. In a normal time that would be our final because they're both so good. But I haven't seen Cinefel. I've been watching this and I watched over obviously Wimbledon when I was back there. But I've been watching quite a lot of Sinna this year, too. He hasn't put a foot wrong. If it's going to be an Alcaraz Sinna matchup again, it's hard to imagine it doesn't go Sinner's way. He has that great playfulness. He's so calm and he's just, he just gets every shot right. He's been dominating this tournament.

[Mika Brzezinski]

Yeah. Starts at 3:00 clock this afternoon. It'll be a fun day out there in Queens. Still ahead this morning, Republican Senator Mitch McConnell appears to be raising concerns about President Trump's top tariffs and foreign policy. We'll dig into his comments as he warns we are in the midst of one of the most dangerous periods since World War II. Plus, we'll walk through the lawsuit Washington, D.C. is filing against the Trump administration for deploying the National Guard amid reports troops may be staying in the city for A few more months now. Morning Joe's coming right back. What a beautiful sunrise just before the top of the hour here in New York City. Republican Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky says we are in the midst of the most dangerous period since the Second World War. McConnell, who's set to retire next year, made the comment during a wide ranging interview with the Lexington Herald Leader raising the issues of foreign policy and tariffs without directly mentioning President Trump, the former Senate majority leader, telling the paper, quote, there are certain similarities right now to the 30s. Herbert Hoover signed the Smootauli Tariff Bill in 1930, widely believed by historians and economists to have taken the Depression. Worldwide. Those who were totally anxious to stay out of all of what was going on in Europe were called America first. Sound familiar? Asks McConnell. McConnell then brought up how North Korea, China, Russia and Iran all hate the United States, adding, when you talk about preparedness, we're not prepared like we should be with regard to Ukraine. What we need to do is avoid the headline at the end of the war, Russia Wins, America loses. It has huge worldwide implications. Jon Meacham, so I saw your ears perk up when you heard about the tariff acts of the late 1920s and early 1930s, but what do you make of McConnell's assessment here?

[Jon Meacham]

Well, I think Senator McConnell has this is not the first time he's spoken out both implicitly and explicitly against the administration. I think he believes it. And I think a lot of folks perhaps on the center and the center left are not going to hear this, but Mitch McConnell is arguably the most important Senate leader in American history. He has, whether you agree or disagree with how he used his power when he was the majority leader, it was a remarkable exercise of it. And there are, I think he embodies a kind of Reaganite core to the old Republican Party that is very much an eclipse. And I think Senator McConnell came to the Senate in 84, I think in that big 49 state landslide. And I think for a lot of Republicans who are having a hard time remembering the shape of the modern party, what Senator McConnell's saying should be a kind of summons back to the Reagan altar, if you will.

[Willie Geist]

No doubt about it. Historian John Meacham, thank you so much for your insights and please stay safe out there on the clay courts.

[Jon Meacham]

Thank you, sir. I appreciate it.

[Willie Geist]

Godspeed, Jon Meacham. Godspeed. KATIE K. There are a lot of Europeans that actually, though they may be loathe to admit it, a lot of Europeans, a lot of our allies across the world would read read the former Senate majority leader's words and be reminded of the 30s. It sounds all too familiar, the parallels with high US tariffs and an American first isolationism that leaves Europe and the rest of the world wondering if America is going to stand up and be the protector of liberty and to be a force that pushes back against against authoritarianism that's sweeping across Europe and leaves.

[Graham Wood]

Europeans wondering whether the anomaly in America actually was the period after the Second World War when America led in world affairs and wasn't isolationist. When the isolationist tendency died down in this country now seems to be re emerging Europeans. And I've spoken to senior EU officials who tell me, look, we are looking, we are talking more to the Indians, we are talking to the Brazilians, we're talking to the Canadians who want to reorient their supply chains. It was triggered by tariffs, the kind of urgency around it, and triggered by Ukraine as well. So you've got this kind of double factor of trade and security which leaves Europeans wondering how much longer they'll be able to rely on America even if, if Donald Trump leaves the political scene, when Donald Trump leaves the political scene because America seems to be less reliable than it was a few decades ago.