Trump to meet with Zelenskyy and European leaders in D.C. to discuss Ukraine peace efforts

Summary

Morning Joe – August 18, 2025

Episode: “Trump to meet with Zelenskyy and European leaders in D.C. to discuss Ukraine peace efforts”
Hosts: Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Willie Geist
Notable Contributors: Jonathan Lemire, Katty Kay, John Heilemann, David Ignatius, Mark Brzezinski, Jon Meacham, Mike Barnicle, Alex Wagner

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Overview

This episode dives into the high-stakes diplomatic summit taking place in Washington, D.C., where President Trump, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, and a cadre of prominent European and NATO leaders convene to discuss peace efforts in Ukraine following Trump’s meeting with Vladimir Putin. The hosts and a roundtable of journalists, historians, and diplomats analyze what’s at stake, the evolving Western approach to the war, the implications of U.S. and European security guarantees, and the delicate dance of land concessions and national sovereignty.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Summit Context and Significance

• High-Level Delegation in D.C.: The unprecedented attendance of European heads of state alongside Zelenskyy underscores the perceived historic importance of this summit regarding the security architecture of Europe and Ukraine’s future.
• Recent Meetings: The summit follows closely on the heels of a Trump-Putin meeting in Alaska that left European and Ukrainian leaders anxious about the direction of U.S. policy.
• Shifts in U.S. Position: Trump’s signals of providing Ukraine with security guarantees (though not NATO membership) mark a departure from his earlier positions, which placed European responsibility at the forefront.

Quote:

"This is going to be one of the most significant meetings regarding the future of Europe in quite some time."
— Jonathan Lemire (01:21)

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2. The Deal: Security Guarantees vs. Territorial Concessions

• Security Guarantees: There is intense focus on possible American security guarantees for Ukraine—potentially a “quasi-NATO” collective defense provision, which is crucial for frontline states like Poland and the Baltics.
• Land-for-Peace Debate: Trump appears poised to pressure Zelenskyy to cede contested territories (notably in Donetsk and Luhansk) in exchange for security commitments. There is widespread concern over what signals this concession would send to Russia and future aggressors.
• European Solidarity: The presence of leaders such as Italy’s Giorgia Meloni, NATO’s Mark Rutte, and others shows Europe’s desire to maintain a united front and support Zelenskyy, remedying past diplomatic breakdowns.

Quote:

"President Zelensky of Ukraine faces an agonizing choice today… That deal is likely to require Zelensky to give up territory… on the other hand…the US is finally…prepared to offer serious security guarantees…"
— John Heilemann (07:32)

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3. History and Precedent: Repeating or Breaking Patterns?

• Lessons from Past Failures: Repeated Western failures to deter Russian aggression in Georgia (2008) and Crimea (2014) loom large. Biden is cited as the first to push back substantively; now the focus is on whether today will finally produce a credible deterrent.
• Analogy to the Cold War: The discussion invokes historical parallels—from tripwire forces in Germany and Korea to the “unconditional surrender” posture in WWII—highlighting the discomfort with negotiating under duress.

Quote:

"We, the West…have taught Vladimir Putin that aggression pays. 2008, he goes into Georgia…2014 he goes into Crimea and Ukraine…we did nothing…Will there finally be a stop sign?"
— Joe Scarborough (16:26, 19:23)

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4. Internal European and American Politics

• European Anxiety: Eastern and Central Europe are described as “anxious and uncertain,” seeking an American guarantee akin to NATO Article 5, which they see as essential for peace and stability.
• Domestic Calculus: Trump is seen as resistant to pressure from GOP hawks in Congress and more interested in a “big powers” approach, echoing Kissinger’s Realpolitik over Brzezinski’s focus on “pivot” countries.

Quote:

"American security guarantees are the holy grail in all this…without that Article 5 guarantee, I can only imagine what Poland and the Baltic states and Romania would have faced."
— Mark Brzezinski (12:31)

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5. Public Messaging and Leaders’ Calculations

• Zelenskyy's Dilemma: The Ukrainian leader is trapped between internal political constraints—selling an unpopular land concession to a war-weary public—and the existential need for security guarantees.
• Russia’s Response: Concerns about “rewarding aggression” persist—i.e., whether Putin will interpret the deal as validation for his methods and a green light for similar moves in the future.

Quote:

"Peace must be lasting, not like it was years ago when Ukraine was forced to give up Crimea and part of our east…and Putin simply used it as a springboard for a new attack…"
— Zelenskyy, as quoted by Katty Kay (03:26)

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6. Strategic and Global Implications

• Impact on China and Global Order: The roundtable flags the wider global message: How the West handles Ukraine is being watched closely by China and others, signaling whether the rules-based order still matters.
• Great Power Competition: There’s an open question as to whether we’re reverting to a 19th/early 20th-century model of “spheres of influence.”

Quote:

"This is a great power competition…Are we in the pre–World War I era reasserting itself…or can we set a line that aggression will not pay?"
— Jon Meacham (36:09)

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7. Media and Editorial Perspective

• Split Conservative Response: Editors from both the Wall Street Journal and National Review, cited by Katty Kay, express uncertainty about Trump’s abrupt tactics and critique the lack of up-front Russian concessions as weakness.

Quote:

"Putin can claim wins of more consequence than a photo op…[He] dodged any requirement to pay a fresh price for his failure to agree to a ceasefire…being a patsy is not."
— National Review (28:55)

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8. Human Element & The Cost of War

• Emotional Toll in Ukraine: David Ignatius reminds the audience of the deeply personal and societal sacrifices made by Ukrainians—thousands of war dead, and the emotional cost of potentially giving up land.

Quote:

"Just think about bombardment every night…say, we got something, we’re giving up this land, it’s a dagger in our heart, but what we got was security, our ability to be a free European country."
— John Heilemann (33:33)

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9. Historical Philosophies: Brzezinski vs. Kissinger

• Small Countries vs. Great Powers: Joe Scarborough draws attention to the difference between “great power” thinking and Brzezinski’s vision of supporting small nations’ sovereignty.
• Hope for Today: There’s qualified hope that today’s summit, by centering Ukraine’s aspirations over “big power” deals, might be a historical pivot.

Quote:

"Dr. Brzezinski had the genius to see eastern Europe as a series of individual countries, each of which mattered in a different way…Let’s hope this intense focus on Ukraine is getting away from the big guys and thinking about the little guys and their security."
— John Heilemann (40:18)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Quote | Speaker | Timestamp | |-------|---------|-----------| |“This is going to be one of the most significant meetings regarding the future of Europe in quite some time.”| Jonathan Lemire | 01:21| |“President Zelensky of Ukraine faces an agonizing choice today…[The deal] is likely to require Zelensky to give up territory…on the other hand…the US is finally…prepared to offer serious security guarantees…”| John Heilemann | 07:32| |“American security guarantees are the holy grail in all this…without that Article 5 guarantee, I can only imagine what Poland and the Baltic states and Romania would have faced.”| Mark Brzezinski | 12:31| |“We, the West…have taught Vladimir Putin that aggression pays. 2008, he goes into Georgia…2014 he goes into Crimea and Ukraine…we did nothing…”| Joe Scarborough | 16:26| |“This is a great power competition…Whether is this the Pre World War I era that has reasserted itself at the end of what we all took…the lessons from World War II and the Cold War…”| Jon Meacham | 36:09| |“Peace must be lasting, not like it was years ago when Ukraine was forced to give up Crimea…and part of our east, part of Donbass, and Putin simply used it as a springboard for a new attack…”| Zelenskyy via Katty |03:26|

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:02–03:26: Summit preview, significance of European delegation
• 06:01–07:32: U.S. and European diplomatic considerations and security guarantees
• 10:06–12:31: Mark Brzezinski on Poland/Baltics’ fears and the role of American guarantees
• 14:48–16:26: Jon Meacham on historical analogies and lessons
• 18:00–19:23: Debate over land concessions and “stop sign” for Putin
• 21:05–23:11: Outcomes and minimum deliverables for Ukraine (security guarantees, not full NATO membership)
• 27:29–29:55: How media is framing the summit; criticism from Wall Street Journal and National Review
• 31:50–33:33: Potential “worst case” scenarios, what Ukraine may accept in exchange for security
• 36:09–38:05: Jon Meacham’s historical framing, discomfort with rewarding aggression
• 40:18–41:37: Scarborough and Heilemann compare Brzezinski’s and Kissinger’s legacies

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Tone and Language

• The hosts maintain a thoughtful, sometimes urgent and worried tone, balanced with moments of camaraderie and humor between segments.
• Language is frank: guests and hosts do not shy away from describing the situation as “agonizing” for Ukraine, “historic” for Europe, and potentially precedent-setting for future global crises.
• Candid disagreement and uncertainty are acknowledged—especially over whether land concessions are inevitable or defensible, and whether Trump’s style will yield progress or simply confusion.

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Summary Conclusion

The episode provides a dense, nuanced exploration of a pivotal moment in the war in Ukraine and the West’s shifting response under President Trump. The stakes are personal for Ukraine and existential for the wider European security order. While the hosts acknowledge the diplomatic pragmatism of possible land-for-peace trade-offs and “quasi-NATO” guarantees, they repeatedly stress the risks of rewarding aggression and teaching troubling lessons to both current and future adversaries. The unity presented by the European delegation is historic, but whether it will be enough to secure a lasting, just peace remains uncertain. The consequences of this summit, as all participants agree, will resonate far beyond Kyiv and Washington.

Transcript

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[Joe Scarborough]

We made progress in the sense that we identified potential areas of agreement, but there remained some big areas of disagreement. So we're still a long ways off. I mean, we're not at the precipice of a peace agreement. We're not at the edge of one. But I do think progress was made. Federal Secretary of State Marco Rubio yesterday. We're going to preview a consequential meeting today at the White House, man, and it's going to be a significant one between President Trump and Volodymyr Zelensky, plus a lot of members of European governments. And that's following, of course, the Friday summit meeting between Trump and Vladimir Putin. You sent me a fascinating statement last night from a source close to a European leader saying that this is going to be one of the most significant meetings regarding the future of Europe in quite some time.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah. Zelensky bringing reinforcements, leaders from many European heads of state, head of the EU, representatives of NATO, the U.K. france, Germany, the list goes on being there to be with him as he meets with President Trump. Two days after Trump met with Putin in Alaska, some concerns, some hopeful signs come to that meeting, some other worrisome signs coming out of that meeting. And the European leaders there want to be with Zelensky as he makes his case and tries to avoid a repeat of what we saw at his last time in the Oval Office. That blow up back in February.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. And we'll see what happens. We don't know. There are a lot of people afterwards saying a lot of different things on both sides, and both sides don't know what's going to exactly happen today. I do like the fact that the leaders are there, the European leaders there. And Katty, when you have somebody like the prime minister of Italy who is considered to be far right, who some people have considered to be ultra nationalists. Actually coming to the meeting and talking about the importance of a security agreement and something that we're hearing every and again, everybody's been saying, it's not going to be NATO, it's not going to be NATO for the most part, has been the belief. But when you have the Italian prime Minister saying the starting point of the proposal is, is the definition of a collective security provision, well, once you start talking about that, then you can start negotiating and haggling over lines, because that's what Poland, that's what Latvia, that's what Lithuania, that's. That's what Estonia and all of those countries are looking at. Is there a security guarantee? If there's a security guarantee, then yes, then we can start talking about where we draw the lines.

[Caddy]

Yeah. When Giorgia Meloni was elected, there was some concern in Europe that she might be more pro Russian, less supportive of Ukraine. She's been anything but, really has been a defender of Ukrainian independence. And having her in that meeting is key. Of course, Mark Rutter, the Secretary General of NATO, is also going to be there. Another person that Donald Trump has a good relationship with, this European contingent has been chosen to have people in the room with Donald Trump who he feels comfortable with, who he has an affinity with. And I think that's Europe's way of saying, ok, let's do whatever it takes. We understand Donald Trump now, we understand the American concerns. We will do whatever it takes to present a united front on behalf of Ukraine without alienating the American president. So President Trump and Ukrainian leader Volodymyr Zelenskyy are set to meet at the White House today. Zelenskyy announced his trip to the US Shortly after Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin wrapped up their summit in Alaska on Friday. The prospect of a ceasefire didn't come up, but following that meeting, Trump promised a, quote, peace agreement to end the war in Ukraine. Trump is also offering security guarantees for Ukraine. That's a shift from his earlier position that only Europe should help protect Kyiv after the war. Last night on Truth Social, Trump ramped up the pressure on Ukraine, writing that Zelensky can end the war with Russia almost immediately if he wants to, or he can continue to fight. Trump also suggested that Ukraine should not retake the Russian occupied territory of Crimea, nor should it join NATO. Zelenskyy responded to that in a social media post of his own, writing, in part, quote, peace must be lasting, not like it was years ago when Ukraine was forced to give up Crimea and part of our east, part of Donbass, and Putin simply used it as a springboard for a new attack or when Ukraine was given so called security guarantees in 1994, but they didn't work. Now, several European and NATO leaders are expected to attend today's meeting in Washington. As we said, they include the president of the European Commission, the chancellor of Germany, the prime ministers of the United Kingdom and of Italy, the presidents of France and of Finland, and the NATO secretary General. Jose. I mean, this is I've not seen in all the years that I have covered American politics, I have not seen a delegation like this from Europe, not even at the outbreak of the Iraq war come to Washington, come to the White House to make Europe's case for peace and security in Europe.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, and it is very significant and some interesting things are obviously happening between the United States and Europe even in the wild six, seven, eight months that we've seen tariff threats going back and forth. But you do have Donald Trump having close relations with Keir Starmer, with the new chancellor of Germany, obviously with Meloni in Italy. So we'll see exactly what happens there. Of course, all those European leaders are talking about the need for a security guarantee. The White House on background talking about the need for security guarantees as well. Let's bring in right now NBC News national affairs analyst and a partner and chief political columnist at Puck, John Heilman, also columnist for the Washington Post, David Ignatius and Rogers chair of the American presidency at Vanderbilt University, historian John Meacham. David Ignatius, a lot of moving parts today. It does appear from what we've heard over the weekend and what we heard last night and read last night on Truth social media, that whatever security agreement there will be, whatever security arrangement involving Americans will be, it won't be a formal NATO membership. Not much of a surprise there. Perhaps a surprise, though, that he was tweeting about it on Truth Social last night before the meeting.

[John Heilman]

So, Joe, I think President Zelensky of Ukraine faces an agonizing choice today because he's going to come to the White House. And I think President Trump is going to lay out the parameters of the deal that emerged. They didn't talk about it in Alaska. And that deal is likely to require Zelensky to give up territory that he now holds in these key disputed provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk. And that's enormously painful for Zelensky. Ukrainians have been fighting and dying. People who go to KYIV see in St George's Cathedral Square the photographs of people who've been dying in Donetsk since 2014. So to give that up is extremely painful. But on the other hand, it does appear that the US Is finally, after months of back and forth on this, prepared to offer serious security guarantees backing up the European force that will be the principal guarantor of Ukrainian security. That's a big shift. So it comes down to Zelensky to decide, is this land for peace deal something that's better for Ukraine, something that I can sell to the Ukrainian people? The indications are that he may balk at it, but, you know, Trump's going to lean hard on him. And I think the Europeans are coming really to say, we are with you, brother President. We're here to support you if you decide that the security guarantees are sufficient to protect Ukraine, to keep it an independent country, not capitulating to Russia, but taking its own course toward Europe.

[Joe Scarborough]

Let's bring in right now from Warsaw, Poland. Mark Brzezinski is the most recent US Ambassador to Poland, who also served in the White House and the National Security council. And as U.S. ambassador to Sweden, he's now CEO of Brzezinski Global Strategies, LLC. Mr. Ambassador, thank you so much for being with us. You were on the front lines of this, obviously, after the invasion and certainly spoke to all interested parties in this. I'm curious your thoughts about what happened over the weekend, the meeting today in the White House and what the people of Poland, and let's just expand that out. Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, what people in the east are looking at and what they want to see out of this White House meeting today.

[Mark Brzezinski]

Joe, greetings from a part of the world that is very anxious and uncertain about what is happening at the White House today from Central and Eastern Europe. What looks like is going to happen at the White House today is the diplomatic version of a showdown at the OK Corral. And so much is at stake. It could be either a rollback of the gains made in terms of democracy and the free market in Central and Eastern Europe, you know, spearheaded by President Ronald Reagan. Or alternatively, a ceasefire could be brokered by President Trump that stops a war that has already claimed 1 million casualties. The opportunity that President Trump has today. And we all want President Trump to be successful, regardless of who you supported. He is now the US President, and in his hands is the possibility of peace to stop a war that has claimed over 1 million casualties. But he has an opportunity not just to convince Ukraine to somehow work in alignment with him to achieve a ceasefire, but also President Trump can speak directly to the top European leadership regarding what he expects them to contribute to keep that peace and ultimately to rebuild Ukraine. Europe has a lot of resources and Trump would be within his rights to say Ukraine is not just an American problem, it is an international problem and especially it's a European problem. And it will be important for the Europeans to share in and join in with us on this.

[Jonathan Lemire]

So, Mr. Ambassador, there's been suggestions of American security guarantees, though very vague. We don't know what they are just yet. There's some concern out of Europe and please speak to this, that yesterday, for instance, Secretary of State Rubio was asked what concessions Russia would need to make. He didn't want to elicit any. But yes, last night President Trump did already give a couple that Ukraine would have to not go back to Crimea, not join NATO. So there is a sense, it's safe to say that if the European leaders thought Friday was a, the summit in Alaska with Putin was a home run, they wouldn't need to necessarily be there with Zelenskyy in Washington today. So speak to us about the continent there, the level of anxiety that today's a real opportunity, to be sure. But what are some of the worries as they get and as Zelenskyy heads back to the White House?

[Joe Scarborough]

Sure.

[Mark Brzezinski]

Well, American security guarantees are the holy grail in all this. And I say this having served as ambassador in Poland, which literally was in the crosshairs of Putin because it was delivering the weapons to the Ukrainians, the Ukrainians that were using to defend themselves against Russia. And the security guarantee, the Article 5 commitment here in Poland worked. Without that Article 5 guarantee, I can only imagine what Poland and the Baltic states and Romania would have faced. So Article 5, the fact that Witkoff and Rubio, negotiator Witkoff and Secretary Rubio are talking about it, is truly the crux of a deal that the Ukrainians could buy into and a security guarantee would have to keep the peace on both sides. This has been a terribly bloody war with casualties massive on both sides and years over the next few years, there will be feelings of retribution and passion for retribution on both sides. The Russia, Ukraine conflict has historical dimensions that if President Trump can broker a ceasefire very soon would be worthy of celebration because it is so historically rooted and so recently bloody. And to put something in place that stops that would be worthy of accolades. And here's an opportunity today.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, former U.S. ambassador to both Sweden and Poland, Mark Brzezinski, thank you so much for your time. We greatly appreciate it. Jon Meacham, your thoughts on the summit. I was re watching before the meeting in Alaska, I was re watching a documentary on Roosevelt and certainly saw what happened at Yalta. And John, John Bolton said it wasn't Yalta. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but I suspect the proof, as they say, will be in the pudding. What comes out today and in the coming days and weeks. I'm curious your thoughts on what you saw Friday and through the weekend.

[Jon Meacham]

Well, you know, personal diplomacy matters enormously. It's not always the determining factor, but it's part of the context in which decisions get made. It's very interesting that Europe has learned the lessons of the first Trump term. They are it looks as if President Zelensky never wants to be alone in the Oval Office again, which is quite understandable given, given what happened the last time he was there. I remember once asking Henry Kissinger what, what role the personal relationships played. And he had an interesting for such a stark realist. He said it did help on the margins that there would that your level of trust of someone could put you over a line to a decision that you might, might not otherwise be. And so to me, the central question is what does Putin want and what does he take from any kind of settlement? Well, what lesson does he take? Does he take the lesson that if you move in someplace, you're going to get at least something? And at that point does that begin to underscore the principle that aggression pays, the lesson that that aggression pays? And so if I were walking into that summit, I would want to know as much as possible about how President Putin is going to interpret a deal.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, I mean, that seems to be key. We have taught, we the West, John Hylan, we have taught Vladimir Putin that aggression pays. 2008, he goes into Georgia, George W. Bush and the west does nothing. 2014 he goes into Crimea and Ukraine. Barack Obama at first is reluctant to even send defensive weapons. We do nothing. We completely ignore the guarantees we made to them. And so this has been going on and on and on. Joe Biden was the first president to actually push back. So it will be fascinating to see what happens. One other thing that's fascinating, the difference everybody's always saying what's the different second term versus the first term? The first term, Volodymyr Zelenskyy would not want any European leaders in with him because Donald Trump had horrible relations with all of them. Now he has very good relations with Keir Starmer. He's had very good relations with Meloni in Italy. He's got good relations with Macron in France. He's got good relations with the new chancellor of Germany. It is very interesting that Donald Trump will be surrounded by leaders that he is, that he has close personal relations with. And so that'll be very telling to see how that works with Zelensky if this security guarantee is really pushed hard. Right.

[Mike Barnicle]

And look, Zelensky, I would have thought Zelensky would want anybody with him in the room to avoid the mugging that he experienced the last time he was in the room alone with Donald Trump and J.D. vance. Joe, to your point, to me, the biggest picture here continues to be and what you see coming out of Zelenskyy's social media post last night is it is just going to be very hard for him to swallow giving up land. And to your point about reinforcing the notion of what does Vladimir Putin take from this? Why did Vladimir Putin look so jolly the other night in Alaska? Is that in the end, I think it's hard to escape the message that you laid out there, which is in the end he's going to have fought this war, he's going to have lost a lot of lives, suffered a lot of casualties, but he's going to end up getting what he really wanted, which was a piece of Ukraine.

[Joe Scarborough]

The long term question, the long term question, actually what he wanted was Ukraine expected to have was Kyiv. Well, the question is will he get slivers of Ukraine and actually have the United States guaranteeing the security of the rest of Ukraine? He did not want that. Right.

[Mike Barnicle]

That's 100% correct. All I mean is the question is whether he's in a position now to chip further away at Ukraine. He will have gotten part of what he want it and not had to suffer really any consequences as far as I can see. The question of what the question that was asked to Rubio over the weekend, which is what is Russia giving up in this deal? And there is no real answer.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, that's what we're going to see. We don't know. There was a lot of screeching this weekend from a lot of people acting like the deal was already done and it was a huge defeat for Zelensky. We don't know yet. The question is this, will there finally be a stop sign? Will the west finally put a stop sign in front of Vladimir Putin, which they didn't do after Georgia, they didn't do after Crimea, they didn't do after Ukraine in 2014. And it's very simple. I mean, the stop sign is very simple and we've been doing it in the United States. We did it after World War II. We put enough American soldiers in West Germany not to repel a Soviet invasion, but just enough that it was a tripwire. You kill our soldiers, we're coming after you. We did it in South Korea. You come after us, that's the tripwire. We're coming after you. After you. If the west, if Europe puts a security force in Ukraine with US Backing, if the United States is a part of rebuilding Ukraine and we have Americans in their business, owners, contractors and perhaps some military advisors, if they are in there, that is a tripwire and that would be enough to actually put a stop sign up to Vladimir Putin. The question is, will we get that far today? And if we don't, not today, but during this process, if we get that, that's something we haven't had since Putin became president of Russia. And so then, yeah, we can talk about drawing lines. If we don't get that really nothing else matters because he'll just reload and invade again.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Right. These summits have to be taken as in tandem here. Part one was Friday. Part two is today. It's football game, first half, second half, no question. Ukraine felt like they took a loss on Friday in the first half with President Trump backing away from the need for an immediate cease fire before negotiating a long term peace that was not well received in Kiev or in Europe. That led to a lot of consternation. In part what led to today, however, as reporting came out over the weekend that there has been more talk of American security guarantees and Trump officials saying that Putin even acknowledged that there would be some need for security guarantees. Well, that would change the game.

[Joe Scarborough]

Exactly right.

[Jonathan Lemire]

We don't, we don't know what's going to happen precisely, precisely today. But in the days and weeks ahead, if there is some sort of force where the war eventually winds down and the US Guarantees like, hey, if you do this again to Putin, there are going to be real consequences. Yes, it's still, of course, a tragedy for Ukraine to lose 20% of their land. You know, there was never really any possibility of going into NATO, but if they were to get some sort of NATO like guarantee, then that would be at least give them some hope for the future. Because that's what Zelenskyy's message has been all along has been this has been a tragedy. And what we need to most avail all we need to prevent Putin from ever trying.

[Joe Scarborough]

By the way, let's underline two things here just again to set expectations to be realistic. Even during the Biden administration, every Biden official, including the chairman of the Joint Chief, says they're going to have to give a plan. They're not going to like giving that plan, but they're going to have to give a plan, number one. Number two, they're not going to become members of naito. There may have been people writing articles in the Wall Street Journal or elsewhere saying they have to be members of NATO or. But you go around to every European leader, that was never going to happen. But there was an idea of a quasi NATO type guarantee and they need that guarantee. And if they get that guarantee, if they have the guarantee that Putin's not going to reload and then come back in, that would be considered, I think, at the end, a win for Ukraine, would it not?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah. NATO was never on the table. You're right. Eventual admission to the EU possible. But right now, in the short term, I think that is what Kiev wants, some sort of security guarantee to prevent Putin from simply taking a break, reloading and then trying again. They don't care if there was some suggestion out of the weekend that Putin said in the Constitution that in Russia there, they would say, well, we can't invade again. That's meaningless.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, meaningless.

[Jonathan Lemire]

No one believes.

[Joe Scarborough]

Nobody trusts Putin.

[Jonathan Lemire]

No one trusts Putin.

[Joe Scarborough]

Nobody trusts Putin.

[Jonathan Lemire]

And again on Friday, obviously Putin, to John's point earlier, Putin had the body language of a winner on Friday night's summit, but that was only part one.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, I heard that he's a KGB agent. Do people expect him to hang his head and go, oh, poor me?

[Jonathan Lemire]

No, he did the slouch thing. He always does the slouch thing in the chair. He always does.

[Joe Scarborough]

He does the slouching in the chair when Barack Obama and other people are going to him.

[Jonathan Lemire]

But to be sure, again, by the.

[Joe Scarborough]

Way, if he did the slouching of the chair with me or you would just get up and walk off. Yeah, I'd be like, if you're not going to pay attention to it, if you can't. Even while I was watching him and President Obama, I said going, why doesn't Obama just get up and walk off?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, that's one of.

[Joe Scarborough]

Somebody acts that way in front of me to make a point.

[Jonathan Lemire]

It was noteworthy.

[Joe Scarborough]

I got you made your point. Hope you have fun. I'm going back to Washington.

[Jonathan Lemire]

It was noteworthy that he was relatively punctual on Friday. Putin is notorious for being out. He made the Pope wait three hours, so he was at least somewhat on time. But you're right, today is part two, part one. Not, not the best for Ukraine. But there are some renewed hope today in Zelensky coming in with allies.

[Joe Scarborough]

And I suggest if there is a part three, the part three will be, as Marco Rubio said, that this is a longer process than President Trump wants. And then at that point, we don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. But just looking forward then at that point, does he go through with the sanctions? Does he listen to Republicans and go through with the sanctions? I suspect that may be the next move if we don't get a deal soon. Still ahead of the Morning Joe, we're going to bring you the latest on the battle to draw congressional maps in Texas as Democrats unveil their own plan to offset any potential Republican gains. Place the Premier League is back. Roger Bennett joins us with highlights from week one. And a reminder, the Morning Joe podcast, well, it will change your life. It's available each weekday featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen to it wherever you get your podcasts. And look at John Heilman right now. One of the reasons, one of the reasons why John is listening, guaranteed Dr. Oz says to reverse male pattern baldness. You're watching MORNING Joe. We'll be right back. Wow.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Saturday, October 11th, from New York City, it's MSNBC LIVE 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhl and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[Joe Scarborough]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Baltimore Mayor Brandon Scott.

[John Heilman]

When you think about the history of Baltimore and gun violence, this issue has.

[Mark Brzezinski]

Really been the issue that has made.

[John Heilman]

Or broken the careers of mayor after mayor after mayor and really been the centerpiece for all discussion around this city.

[Joe Scarborough]

For more than 50 years longer than I've been alive. That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why Is this Happening wherever you're listening right now and follow.

[Caddy]

6:25 the Capitol this August morning, we're following what the papers are writing about this big summit at the White House. Later today, the Wall Street Journal editorial has a new piece asking what kind of peace in Ukraine. It reads, in part, president Trump conducts foreign policy on personal instinct and tactical impulse. And his abrupt Friday turn on Russia and Ukraine is a classic illustration. Whether it's the start of a road to peace or to appeasement is impossible to know. We're not sure if Mr. Trump knows himself. No wonder Russian commentators and Putin and allies were still celebrating the summit's results. Their president ended his isolation in the west, made no public concessions, and can continue killing Ukrainians without further sanction. The president can say all he wants that this is Joe Biden's war, not his. But like it or not, what happens next is, on his watch, a defeat for Ukraine will echo at home and across the world for the rest of his presidency. Well, the editors of the National Review, meanwhile, they're also writing about the no Deal summit and the path to peace in Ukraine. In, in part, their story reads, quote, putin can claim wins of more consequence than a photo op. Above all, he dodged any requirement to pay a fresh price for his failure to agree to a ceasefire. This is a significant climb down by Trump. This matters. Without a preliminary ceasefire, it will be hard to proceed to the more formal armistice that remains the most likely form of eventual peace deal for any American intervention to be successful. Before long, it will, however chummy. The talks in Alaska have to involve more stick as well as carrot. Trump should remember that while patience is a virtue, being a patsy is not. In the aftermath of the meetings, he wants to hold off on further sanctions. For now, that's fine. But in the absence of progress toward a ceasefire, in fairly short order, he should resume turning the sanctions racket. David Ignatius, I mean, that's too conservative. Points of view, clearly, coming from the more hawkish traditional Republican Party point of view. What's your take on what happens now outside of the White House and outside of this meeting? If things carry on on this path, are there any avenues for the Senate, for the Republican Party to carry on putting pressure on the White House to support Ukraine? Or does it all really hinge on this meeting today?

[John Heilman]

So, Katie, President Trump has shown that he's able really, I think, to fend off Republican pressure. And although Lindsey Graham and others, despite.

[Caddy]

What those papers might be writing.

[John Heilman]

Yeah, well, I just think recent history shows us that one way to think about what's happening today and in the succeeding days is this war has been about whether Ukraine can become a Western country. That's been the aspiration of the Ukrainian people, and it was intolerable to Putin and to Russia. And Russia really fought a war to prevent Ukraine from becoming European. If the United States today, by offering security guarantees to whatever part of Ukraine emerges from the war intact, so that that country can be as South Korea became, as West Germany became a part of the west with our guarantees of security behind them, then that's an outcome that's going to make for a more prosperous Ukraine in the long run. I can't imagine that the rest of Ukraine won't move as East Germany moved with West West Germany. That's down the road. But the key thing is whether the United States really will stand behind Ukraine's sovereignty against Putin. If that happens today, then I think there's some reason for optimism. If it doesn't, it's a cave in to Putin's power.

[Mike Barnicle]

Hey, David, it's Heilman here. I just want to pick up on on a little bit on where you just ended up, but where a couple of unanswered questions from the first block of the show. I know there's obviously these European leaders who are coming to the White House today are not all of exactly one mind, but I think it's fair to say that there's, broadly speaking among all of them a certain set of concerns. What's the downside scenario for this group? They're showing up there fearing the worst. The worst looks like what today?

[John Heilman]

So, Jon, I think to me the worst would be Trump leans on Zelensky to give up all of the Donbas, this area in eastern Ukraine. Zelenskyy refuses for political reasons. He says, I can't. It violates my constitution and my people don't want it. And the Europeans, although talking tough, don't stand up to what will be Trump's demand. You've got to give up that territory. This is the peace deal I've made for you issue and they stand behind Trump rather than Zelensky. That's the scenario that I view as most threatening. At the end of this process, you'd end up with Ukraine having to make concessions without getting anything sufficient in return to guarantee its security.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's what I was going to ask you. How much do you think Ukraine will be willing to give up if in fact they get a rock solid security guarantee? Where the European countries and Donald Trump say, we're going to be in Ukraine, the US Is going to be supporting us. We're all going to be rebuilding your country and we're going to tell Vladimir Putin in no uncertain terms that an attack against Ukraine, his attack against the United States and Great Britain and France and Germany and Italy and the eu at that point, when he gets that rock solid assurance, if he gets that rock solid assurance at that point, do you think the land deal can be made?

[John Heilman]

So, Joe, he has to be able to sell this to the Ukrainian people. And they have suffered in this war so much. Just think about bombardment every night, every night, spending much of that night awake, which has been the case for much of this year for Ukrainians in Kyiv and elsewhere. Yet to sell it to this, you know, war weary people and say, we got something. We're giving up this land, it's a dagger in our heart. But what we got was security, our ability to be a free European country. So I think it depends on, in how this is phrased, if the appearance at the end of today is of the western countries, the United States and Europe marching together with Ukraine, even as it makes this terrible concession of land, that may be something that Zelensky can take home. And the Ukrainians would say it was worth the sacrifices we made, but there's a lot of resistance to it. Again, I just share with your viewers the feeling of standing and square looking at pictures of Ukrainians who died in these in Donetsk in Luhansk since 2014. There are hundreds of photos, as far as you can see, of people who died in this war. So giving it up is not going to be easy.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Jon Meacham. There's also another interested observer today, and that's going to be Xi Jinping of China, who's going to see what the US and the west is willing to do to stand up for a smaller country invaded by a larger one. So speak to us just about how precarious this moment is. Big picture here as we really barrel into this new century with a sense of almost a return to a great powers setup where there are spheres of influence and potentially aggression can be rewarded or at least go relatively unpunished. John, I think we've lost Beacham's. I think John.

[Joe Scarborough]

John either froze or fell asleep. And, you know, considering. Well, John, you know, I had a.

[Jon Meacham]

Lot of wise things to say there.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, yeah, but it looked like you were in the middle of one of your over 80s matches at your country club. John always go asks if he can play the over 80s, you know, bracket. And it's very important to be able.

[Jon Meacham]

To play within the oxygen tent.

[Joe Scarborough]

Exactly. All right, cool. John, you're being paid for to give deep thoughts, go deep Thoughts?

[Jon Meacham]

Deep thought here. To Jonathan's question is it is a great power competition. We are interestingly in 2025 back to 1914. This is interesting, interesting question. Whether is this the Pre World War I era that has reasserted itself at the end of what we all took? The lessons we all took from World War II and the Cold War, which was an implacability and unconditional surrender. One of the reasons I think this conversation is uncomfortable for a lot of people conversant with American history is that we don't really talk, we didn't really talk about negotiating in the middle of the 20th century. Right. We didn't talk about doing this after FDR and FDR announced unconditional surrender in the Second World War. Somewhat surprising Churchill at Casablanca. We didn't talk about it so much during Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy because we had made a stand. It's a long twilight struggle and we represent the West. And as Ronald Reagan said, his view of the Cold War was we win, you lose. This is not that. Right. This is something in between. And I think it's uncomfortable, it's uncomfortable for me to think, okay, we're going to, we're going to award this aggression, but yes, you get a collective security agreement, okay, but you wouldn't need it if the aggression had not happened. So what is all that? That's the tragedy of history. And so what we're going to see today in Washington is a remarkable gathering of European leaders who are trying to find the best, worst option.

[Joe Scarborough]

So David Ignatius, as we wrap up the segment, I want to read from you something from the New Statesman on Friday out of Britain. And I read it to you because you knew Dr. Brzezinski so well. This was a review of Zabig, Ed Luce's biography on Dr. Pruszynski. And the parallels are striking. This summer, in between hosting JD Vance and visiting Switzerland, David Lammy, the Foreign Minister of Great Britain, had been reading Edward Luce's the Life of Zbigniew Brzezinski. The book charts the intellectual political rivalry between the Polish born US Diplomat Henry Kissinger. While Kissinger championed a foreign policy centered on the great powers, an approach Lammy regards as cynical, Brzezinski consistently advocated for smaller countries, noting how they can act as geopolitical pivots, which Lammy considers to be overly cynical. And of course, as you know, starting in 1950, Dr. Brzezinski said the Soviet Union will fall from within, most likely when these small countries start breaking away. And of course, it was his own home country Poland that did that. I am struck by watching Donald Trump's foreign policy approach saying how much it reflects Kissinger's in that it's about the great powers, it's about China, Russia, America and everybody else be damned. Well, that didn't work. Brzezinski's smaller countries, where you look at the Polands, you look at the Ukraine's, you look at the smaller countries in the orbits of these larger powers to actually see where it matters. So I'm fascinated how history repeats itself and how we are actually looking at what we've seen thus far in the Trump administration. More of a Kissinger great powers daytime approach that in the end was a historical failure.

[John Heilman]

So, Joe, it's a great point. Trump so far has been about the big guys, you know, the big deals between the big powerful leaders with whom he feels affinity. Dr. Brzezinski had the genius to see Eastern Europe as a series of individual countries, each of which mattered in a different way. And I would say as we look at the events today, the United States and all of its European allies, and it does seem like this is an alliance again, are treating Ukraine as an individual country with its own aspirations and a deep yearning to be part of Europe. It's something Brzezinski would have loved. I remember in one of our conversations, he spoke about the way in which Ukraine moving west toward Europe could be the first step of a broader process that would finally bring Russia balance between Asia and Europe more towards the West. That seems impossibly far away now, but that was part of Dr. Brzezinski's vision. And let's hope this intense focus on Ukraine is getting away from the big guys and thinking about the little guys and their security.

[Jonathan Lemire]

The Washington Post's David Ignatius and historian Jon Meacham. Our thanks to you both. Thank you, gentlemen.

[Joe Scarborough]

Good luck today. John. Lieutenant.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah. Over 80s. We'll see.

[Joe Scarborough]

Over 80s, I think he got it.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, he's, he's been working on the backhand. We'll see. Coming up here on Morning Joe, we'll bring you the latest on the federal takeover of Washington DC's police force after a weekend of protests in the nation's capital. Plus, Scotty Scheffler simply does it again. Winning another tournament with your run of the mill 82 foot chip in. Seal the deal.

[Joe Scarborough]

Look at that. You can do that, right, John?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Oh, I most certainly cannot, Heilman. Maybe Morning Joe. Be right back.

[MSNBC Announcer]

Saturday, October 11th, from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Mattow, Joe Scarborough, Micah Bruce, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up [e-mail].

[Joe Scarborough]

Welcome back to Morning Joe. Beautiful shot of New York City. It's. It's sometime in August. Like, what is this? We're mid the August. We get into the second half of August.

[Mike Barnicle]

It's the dog days, bro.

[Alex Wagner]

It is the sun setting before 8pm it's almost said.

[Joe Scarborough]

What? It was hot yesterday.

[Mike Barnicle]

Oh, man. Wretched.

[Joe Scarborough]

It was wretched, baby.

[Mike Barnicle]

Wretched.

[John Heilman]

Humid.

[Joe Scarborough]

I know. Wretched it from Florida. I mean, it gets hot. Yeah, but it was hot yesterday. So brutal. On this hot New York weekend, we're gonna get to sports on the national and international level segment. First, let's go to the Hamptons. So, okay, so every year, cradle of baseball. The cradle baseball. You have artists and writers.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That's right.

[Joe Scarborough]

This was a game like George Plimpton would go out, Tom Wolf would be batting in his, you know, linen suit. Like now it's reduced to you and your bro gets really falling off. So. No, but, but so you got. You got Lupica's team against Ken no.

[Jonathan Lemire]

L. The same team.

[Joe Scarborough]

They're both merged, the Yankees and the Red Sox.

[Alex Wagner]

Inter league.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Against whom it's the writers versus the artist. It is a charity softball game played every year.

[Joe Scarborough]

Been played forever for play.

[Jonathan Lemire]

77Th year.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's forever.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That is forever. Happy to tell you, the writers of which squad I am on week emerged 9 6. We were triumphant this year. We had lost two in a row. We won this year. Mike Lupica, good job. He's watching. He's thinking about it. He's already planning for next year's game.

[Alex Wagner]

Do you call him Skip?

[Joe Scarborough]

Do you call him Skip? Who hits cleanup?

[Mike Barnicle]

Woodward or Bernstein?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Carl Bernstein on the team. I hit second, two hits. Played a very a Trevor Story esque shortstop made the plays on the verge of injury at all times.

[Joe Scarborough]

On the verge of injury. Exactly, exactly. You need a first baseman and who you, Joe.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Let's do it.

[Joe Scarborough]

Look at this.

[Jonathan Lemire]

And unlike devil, I found them in wood. That's right. That's right. You'll play first. You have to be on the artist team. He writes.

[Joe Scarborough]

What team? What I do.

[Mike Barnicle]

I mean, I know you write, but you're a You know, you're an artist. I mean, this one's a real artist over here.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's right, it's an artist.

[Mike Barnicle]

BS artist, but an artist.

[Joe Scarborough]

An artist of love.

[Alex Wagner]

Picasso of 30.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay, well, next year I'm expecting Lupica to draft me for next year.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Your phone is about to go off.

[Joe Scarborough]

My phone's already gone off. Whenever you know Lupica, I tell you, we will be in the middle. I play one golf round year and we will be in the middle of a golf round in the middle of winter. And Lupa will go, hey, you know your boy Lemire. And I'm going, he's going to talk about the artists game. It's a good win. A writers and artists game again. He loves it back in the day.

[Mike Barnicle]

The umpire in this game used to be Hunter Thompson with the big satchel. Satchel, filet.

[Joe Scarborough]

Ether. And I'm ready, I'm ready to take.

[Mike Barnicle]

That's the role I want at this going forward.

[Joe Scarborough]

And I was, I was looking with that.

[Jonathan Lemire]

President Clinton has umpired the game a number of times. Not just without the ether, not the. No one's saying he had ether, you elites.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's just sickening, isn't it?

[Alex Wagner]

This is the mad Lib I come to the studio for.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yes, it's once a year, but it's for charity.

[Alex Wagner]

President Clinton wear the mask.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Did you wear the chest protection for charity?

[Joe Scarborough]

By the way, the cup. Can I just. Can I just tell you I. I have gotten positive notice from across the globe for our segment.

[Jon Meacham]

Oh boy.

[Joe Scarborough]

Pablo's potpourri.

[Alex Wagner]

That's right.

[Joe Scarborough]

We need to do that some more.

[Alex Wagner]

A fragrant. A fragrant couple of minutes that America has been clamoring for.

[Mike Barnicle]

Fragrant is one word for.

[Joe Scarborough]

Is. Speaking of ether, let's bring in right now Roger Bennett. He is of course the founder and the CEO of Men and Blazers. Roger, thank you so much.

[Alex Wagner]

Speaking of ether is an incredible segue to Raj.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, I had to have something to get from there to Hamptons, to Raj. Raj. New Premier League season opened up. How was it?

[Roger Bennett]

Oh, it wasn't as good as Mike Lupica stumbling around the baseball field, Joe, let me tell you that. But it is the world's greatest telenovela played out live without a script. 380 games scattered over 283 days. With a World cup in the United States at the end of it, whole planet watching it was quite rollicking. Highlights include Manchester City's Erlin Haaland. That man is chat GP PPT in cleats, scoring twice as City began with a four nil beat down the walls. Oasis reunite. That's all it takes for them to be back atop the table. My God. A man is like ripped from Nordic epic poetry. Tottenham Hotspur raise hopes just to shatter them. They start beautifully. Brazilian Richarlison unleashing a bicycle kick that most human beings on Cooper Cabana can do whilst wearing a speedo. Tottenham Hotspur hearts hopes shattered. Hopes inevitably inextricably connected. But Joe highlight of the game took place at the team you support. Liverpool Football Club. Boston Red Sox own champions. They kicked off the season at home. A night of pageantry ritual morning fans welcoming back defending champions one morning one of their own midfield at Diogo Jota who tragically died in a car crash in July. Really a panoply of emotions. Triumphant tears pre match rendition set the tone. Liverpool stormed into the lead. That's a new star Hugo Ekitike. There's no more potent palindrome in Sport. They went 2 nil ahead but Bournemouth are tenacious. This is Antoine Semeno rumbling down like oh. Desmond Howard in his prime. Liverpool stunned to be pegged back two two. But in the 88th minute a player who's been more a meme than a football. A little F. Federico Key. So look at this first ever Premier League goal. Redemptive power. Even he looks surprised to have scored it. And late, late on the Egyptian king Mo Salah. This is actually quite beautiful. Whether you like football or not. This is the open. Jota's great friend and teammate finished of course he did. Ended up celebrating with the fans and then at the end of the game walked up to them as the fans sang the song of Jota for the first time without him being alive to hear it. Salah in tears, capturing a night of humanity triumph. Really a reminder to savor every second in life. Joe, you do not know when it will be your last. It's humanly beautiful. Right?

[Joe Scarborough]

It really is. I. Yeah. Hard to. Hard to get actually excited about the opening opening game this. This season because of Jodo. Because of the tragedy after the parade as well. Very rough off season for Liverpool. But you're right. So moving and so moving to see Mo there at the end tearing up. Thank. Thank you so much Roger. We greatly appreciate it. Courage, big love.

[Roger Bennett]

Let's get back to some more Mike Lupica.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay. More Lupiga, more looping Mike Lupiga in the morning. All right. Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Mike Barnicle]

You're going to hear from Arsenal fans about.

[Joe Scarborough]

About. About what?

[Mike Barnicle]

About no coverage of Arsenal.

[Joe Scarborough]

There well, what does it matter? Let's bring in Caddy here. Caddy has. I think his son is an Arsenal fan. Caddy. We could show Arsenal winning in August, September, in October.

[Caddy]

He was happy with that.

[Joe Scarborough]

And December.

[Caddy]

Three points on the board. They're okay. It was not the most elegant of games. Man U didn't put up the greatest competition. But I had a happy son. I had a happy husband. Man. City won two. So, you know, all good in my house.

[Joe Scarborough]

My prediction, your husband will continue to be happy with City because they're going to have a great run. And your son, as always, as we get into the spring, Arsenal will fold like a rusty lawn chair, like they always do. We'll disappoint. And, you know, you'll have to be talking your son through it. There you go. Well, Caddy, we know you're a huge baseball fan.

[Caddy]

Huge. Oh, my God.

[Joe Scarborough]

Big. Huge. So why don't you guys.

[Caddy]

Thank God Lemire is here.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, thank God.

[Jonathan Lemire]

I'll step up here. So we want to bring you what's being called perhaps the catch of the decade. This was yesterday, San Francisco. Well, that's what the announcer said.

[Joe Scarborough]

We're going back.

[Jonathan Lemire]

And the outfit. Watch this. The Giants jumping the. Racing to make a play on a drive out to right center. Watch it again. He has the ball. He dives. The ball pops out of his glove and he catches it with his knees. He catches the ball, Catches the ball between his legs, rolls over, still has it. You can see the ball never touches the ground. He's got it there. What a catch. Giant, just like he planned. Just like he planned. I don't know that I've ever seen that one before. Giants win. Snapping a seven game.

[Joe Scarborough]

The Giants have been. Their management's been made fun of for years for requiring every player you, Suzanne Summers, ThighMaster. It paid off.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Paid off at last. We should note on the Giants, Joe a stat you sent around.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yes, I did that.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Since the Raphael Devis trade back in mid June.

[Joe Scarborough]

How's that working for him?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Which took the baseball world by storm since that date. The San Francisco Giants. That's the worst record in baseball.

[Joe Scarborough]

And this makes me sad.

[Jonathan Lemire]

You can tell Joe is broken up.

[Alex Wagner]

You know what I come to you also for is your unbiased coverage of the Boston Red Sox. In no way. In no way is Rafael Devers gonna hear it from this particular program as he now lives in a cove covered by fog. Both emotional, mental, and clearly performance based.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Mike Barnicle]

Hey, how'd the Yankees do this weekend?

[Joe Scarborough]

Did they win?

[Alex Wagner]

I am Glad you asked because I just strolled in here and saw the back cover of the New York Post and. That's right, it was a sweep gift card of the Cardinals. Now ignore the increasingly sarcastic headline. Yeah, I don't like this, by the way.

[Jonathan Lemire]

That's good.

[Alex Wagner]

I don't like that. They're just assuming that. Of course, the Cardinals are just handing out, you know, gift baskets of wins, but. That's right, Joe.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Significant series looms this weekend. Yankees, Red Sox four in the Bronx.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's going to be fascinating.

[Jonathan Lemire]

You see, the standings have tightened.

[Joe Scarborough]

We need to win two against the Orioles and we need to split that one against Yankees. I tell you, of course we know the Yankees going to end up winning the World Series. Going to win in five games. Going to embarrass the doctor.

[Alex Wagner]

You're like a witch doctor.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, no, no.

[Alex Wagner]

That's what this is. I'm like a voodoo dog.

[Joe Scarborough]

They're gonna win in five games. And I gotta say again, I've said it before, I say it again, anything less than that is a complete, total, abject failure.

[Jonathan Lemire]

An embarrassment, really.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's really.

[Alex Wagner]

Your spells won't work on me.

[Mike Barnicle]

Did we mention it on Friday?

[Joe Scarborough]

They already have.

[Mike Barnicle]

The Dodgers were headed into a three game series against the Padres.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Yeah, we were talking about.

[Mike Barnicle]

The Padres are kind of a very dangerous team.

[Joe Scarborough]

Padre's good. What happened over the week?

[Mike Barnicle]

What happened over the weekend?

[Jonathan Lemire]

Dodgers swept. Yeah, statement by the Dodgers.

[Joe Scarborough]

That is a statement by the Dodgers.

[Mike Barnicle]

That's where the pugs.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right, really quickly, just because Alex, I'm sure at this point is just about to like, you know, he left. He's got these.

[Jonathan Lemire]

He's walked out.

[Joe Scarborough]

I heard his headset himself. Jack Scarborough gives me the countdown that I guess Today is 12 days till Alabama plays FSU. Like, we're getting close.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Football around the corner.

[Joe Scarborough]

Football is just around the corner. He picked his fantasy football teams this week.

[Alex Wagner]

That's right.

[Joe Scarborough]

Have you done that?

[Alex Wagner]

Do you do that next week?

[Joe Scarborough]

Next week you do it. Do you do that?

[Jonathan Lemire]

I do, but early September, right before.

[Alex Wagner]

The season starts, we rent a. My high school friends, we've been doing for 25 years. We rent a room now in the.

[Mike Barnicle]

Hamptons right next to Lupus.

[Alex Wagner]

That's right. Somewhere in the outfield, we gather and. No, this is. Look, America is going back to church. This is what happens. Seasonal worship. And it is the biggest thing that we have left in this country.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, actually, Sacrilegious Pablo, America is going back to church. The rates are going back up, especially for younger men. Just wanted you to know that maybe there's a connection between fantasy football and.

[Alex Wagner]

That'S what's trending on TikTok, you know, praying for Josh.

[Joe Scarborough]

How many years in a row have I done fantasy football? Guess.

[Mike Barnicle]

Zero.

[Joe Scarborough]

How many years in a row?

[Alex Wagner]

A decade. A solid decade.

[Joe Scarborough]

How many years?

[Jonathan Lemire]

I guess I'll take the middle and say 3.

[John Heilman]

4.

[Joe Scarborough]

Winner right here. 0. I don't have it. Time for fantasy football. Joe and I are talking, people. I grabbed this. Fantasy football. I'm in fantasy baseball. I wonder if he wrapped it with the brilliant rules football.

[Mike Barnicle]

I would make an obscene gesture with my hands right now, except it would.

[Joe Scarborough]

Be, I mean, you know, how many years have you done it? Zero. Exactly.

[Jonathan Lemire]

Zero.

[Joe Scarborough]

Still ahead, we're.