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White House plagued by drum beat for more information on Epstein case
00:45:33
While taking questions at Joint Base Andrews this week, President Trump told reporters he didn't "...understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody.” He also referred to the case as “pretty boring stuff.” The Morning Joe panel discusses Trump's remarks and why the issue is not going away.
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- [00:00]
Joe Scarborough
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Joe Scarborough
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Joe Scarborough
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Mika Brzezinski
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- [00:52]
Donald Trump
I would say that, you know, these files were made up by Comey, they were made up by Obama, they were made up by the Biden. You know, and we went through years of that with the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax with all of the different things that we had to go through. We've gone through years of it. But she's handled it very well and it's going to be up to her. Whatever she thinks is credible, she should release.
- [01:18]
David French
A mixture of conspiracy theories and defiance from President Trump yesterday on the Jeffrey Epstein files. His base continues to express anger at the administration for not releasing records connected to the convicted sex trafficker. And now House Speaker Mike Johnson breaking with the president will go through all of that. Meanwhile, Russia is dismissing President Trump's call for a ceasefire in 50 days as well as his tariff threat. We'll look at what could come next in that years long conflict. Also ahead, an update on the New York City mayoral campaign as Democratic candidate Zoran Mamdani met with business leaders in hopes of easing their concerns about him. Good morning and welcome to Morning Joe. It is Wednesday, July 16th. Along with Willie and me, we have the co host of our fourth hour contributing writer at the Atlantic, Jonathan Lemire and New York Times opinion columnist David French. And Willie, it seems the far right, much of it digging in on finding answers and justice as it pertains to sex predator Jeffrey Epstein.
- [02:27]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah, and some people who had decided to let this go came back to it again yesterday. There is no let up now in the drumbeat for more information about that Jeffrey Epstein case, despite, as we just heard, President Trump's repeated efforts to put the issue to Rest. The controversy continues to plague the administration, driving a chasm among MAGA supporters. The President spoke to reporters yesterday questioning why anyone would even care about the deceased convicted sex offender.
- [02:56]
Donald Trump
I don't understand it, why they would be so interested. He's dead for a long time. He was never a big factor in terms of life. I don't understand what the interest or what the fascination is. I really don't. And the credible information's been given. Don't forget, we went through years of the Mueller witch hunt and all of the different things. The Steele dossier, which was all fake, all that information was fake. But I don't understand why the Jeffrey Epstein case would be of interest to anybody. It's pretty boring stuff. It's sordid, but it's boring. And I don't understand why it keeps going. I think really, only pretty bad people, including fake news, want to keep something like. Like that going. But credible information, let them give it. Anything that's credible, I would say let them have it.
- [03:50]
Joe Scarborough
Well, millions of his own supporters disagree. They are some of the loudest voices calling for more transparency, more information about what happened with Epstein. Among them, Charlie Kirk, who was back on the topic last night, posting a list of, quote, action items to get to the bottom of the case. Megyn Kelly doubled down on her criticism of the Department of Justice in a blog post, saying, nice try, but she will not be deterred from talking about Epstein. She said Fox News host Brett Baer opened his show last night with coverage of the story. Podcaster Joe Rogan questioned the administration for its handling of the case.
- [04:28]
Willie Geist
They've got videotape, and all of a sudden they don't. You know, you had the director of the FBI on the show saying there's no. If there was. Nothing you're looking for is on those tapes.
- [04:38]
Donald Trump
Like what?
- [04:39]
Willie Geist
Why'd they say there was thousands of hours of tapes of people doing horrible. Why'd they say that? Right. Didn't Pam Bondi say that?
- [04:49]
David French
Also calling for more clarity is House Speaker Mike Johnson, who pressed the administration for more visibility on the case.
- [04:58]
Jonathan Lemire
It's a very delicate subject, but we should. We should put everything out there and let the people decide it. I agree with the sentiment that we need to. We need to put it out there. And. And, you know, Pam Bondi, I don't know when she originally made the statement, I think she was talking about documents. As I understood it, they were on her desk. I don't know that she was specific about a list or whatever, but she needs to come forward and explain that to everybody.
- [05:22]
David French
Speaker Johnson joins other Republican members of Congress breaking with President Trump on this issue. Several conservatives in the House also spoke out yesterday.
- [05:33]
Charlie Kirk
Whatever they have, and I think fan Bondi is turning it over to somebody else now, but whatever they have, it needs to be transparent. It needs to come out.
- [05:40]
Willie Geist
The Justice Department's been transparent?
- [05:42]
Charlie Kirk
No, I wouldn't say that. I don't know what they have. This all just came to a head and we'll see. But on all this, it should be transparent. The American people need to see what's in there, and that's not hard.
- [05:58]
Willie Geist
Should there be an investigation or special counsel investigation?
- [06:02]
Jonathan Lemire
I don't know. I'm not an attorney.
- [06:04]
Joe Scarborough
I just find them guilty and hang them publicly.
- [06:08]
Jonathan Lemire
I mean, I'm not. That's not over the top either. I'm ready. I'm over Disgusts me.
- [06:15]
Joe Scarborough
I'm big on clarity and transparency.
- [06:17]
Jonathan Lemire
And, you know, that's good reason. People don't trust government, either party.
- [06:22]
Willie Geist
But you don't believe what the Justice Department is saying.
- [06:25]
Jonathan Lemire
I don't know. No, I don't. I don't. I think. I don't. I don't. I don't trust.
- [06:31]
David French
I think moving forward, we need a special counsel.
- [06:34]
Megyn Kelly
That has got to happen. There has to be a special investigation into this if we aren't going to be provided information.
- [06:40]
David French
And so this is certainly important and I want answers, and maybe that takes that special counsel to do so.
- [06:47]
Joe Scarborough
All right, so those are all Republicans calling for more information. Despite those calls, though, House Republicans blocked another amendment that would mandate the release of the Justice Department files on Jeffrey Epstein. Yesterday, Democrats tried to force a vote on a measure that would have required the DOJ to publish the files within 30 days. This comes just one day after Republicans on the House Rules Committee voted against attaching a similar Epstein amendment to a cryptocurrency and defense funding bill. Democrats have promised future votes on the measure, while Republicans are dismissing the move, calling it a partisan ploy. Republican Congressman Tim Burchett of Tennessee, who you just heard from a second ago, telling Axios, quote, it's just politics. It's not about protecting little children. And that ticks me off. So, David French, you're writing about this this morning. You've been writing about it quite a bit. I think it's worth taking a step back to the layman who follows the news but does not understand why conservatives, some conservatives, millions of conservatives, why our Department of Justice, why the White House, why the FBI right now is consumed about a case of a convicted sex offender who killed himself in J years ago. Why is this so resonant and why won't it go away?
- [08:05]
Jonathan Lemire
Yeah, I'm glad we're taking a step back here to help people understand, because I don't think the average person in the United States understands the extent to which MAGA is motivated by, and their support for Trump is motivated by this burning sense of conviction that America is led by a ruling class of pedophiles, that American, the top, the top of American government, the top of American industry is populated by, by pedophiles. And so if you have a belief. Now just think this through for a moment. If you have a burning conviction, if you have a belief that the top layer of American government is, is populated by pedophiles, then your motivation to, quote, drain the swap is going to be rooted in furious anger, just furious anger. And, and this has been stoked by the way, by the Trump administration and by figures within MAGA for years. So if you're going to go back and you're going at rhetoric before the 2024 election, you're going to have a Cash Patel, you're going to have a Dan Bongina, you're going to have to some extent even Trump himself talking about, we got to get this out there and get this out there. You're going to have, in Christian circles, in extreme Christian circles, you're going to have prophecies about how Trump is the man who is supposed to expose all of this, to root all of this out. So what we're talking about here is actually a disruption for the motivating force for MAGA to begin with, for an awful lot of. So that's why when I saw all of a sudden this DOJ memorandum, an unsigned memorandum, by the way, a very cowardly way to do this, comes out and basically refutes every key element of the Epstein, the bigger Epstein conspiracy. That says there's no list. That was a shock to people because Bondi implied that the list was on her desk, that there's no blackmail. Another shock to people who believed that blackmail was one of the ways that the pedophile cabal kept everyone in line and, you know, talked about that he had in fact killed himself. And then we have this just staggering weirdness, I guess is a good way to say it, of releasing videos that are supposed to allegedly disprove conspiracies, but yet have missing minutes within them. And there's evidence that comes from Wired magazine, not from some obscure right wing conspiracy site, that, hey, this video may have been spliced together may have been edited in some way. And all of a sudden all of these alarm bells start going off around MAGA in a way they've not gone off around, say, cuts to foreign or unconstitutional attacks on free speech or exploding federal deficits or inconsistence policies towards Ukraine. All of that. They'll stick with him easily. But this, this is something else entirely because it's foundational to the purpose of, I'm not going to say the whole movement, but part of the movement. And that's why you have seen some of people who otherwise would be peak, absolute peak Trump sycophants breaking with Trump like your Benny Johnson's of the world, your Charlie Kirk's of. I would never call Joe Rogan a Trump sycophant, but like raising his voice here. Megyn Kelly. These are people with immense followings. Now, of course they're not as influential as Trump. No one is in maga, but they have immense followings. And then you're seeing rank and file rebellion. When Trump posted his screed bizarrely blaming the Epstein files on Obama and others. This was one of the first times you saw the user base of Truth Social. This is the core of maga, the beating heart of MAGA turning on. So he actually does have a real problem here. When you see even a Mike Johnson saying something that means he's hearing from constituents. And for years we've never seen any daylight between Trump and maga. Maybe one brief incident of booing when he brought up the vaccine at a rally some time ago, but this is the first real breach we've seen. And you, when you've been around maga, you know why? Because this is foundational. This is why many of them supported him in the first place, which is ironic considering his ties to Jeffrey Epstein, but this is why many of them supported him in the first place. This is foundational to the reasons for supporting him. And all of a sudden he's comparing it to the Russia, so called Russia hoax. He's putting them in the category of the Democrats and Trump dissenting Republicans who are very keen on investigating ties to Russia. This is a wild moment. I knew it would be a problem when I saw that memo. I knew it'd be a problem for him. I did not see how much of a problem it would and how hard it would be for him to tamp it down.
- [12:49]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. And when you've invested, as you say, years and years and years of your life, when this is foundational to who you are, you're not going to walk away from it after an unsigned memo from the DOJ and the FBI. John, very fascinating, frankly, to watch Donald Trump, the President of the United States, grapple with this. A guy who was an acquaintance of Jeffrey Epstein, who once called him a terrific guy, who acknowledged jokingly his affinity for very young women. Trump talking about Jeffrey Epstein, frankly, just looks uncomfortable when we see him there.
- [13:21]
Willie Geist
Yesterday talking about this and clearly flailing. I mean, yesterday on the tarmac there at Joint Base, Andrews talked about how boring the story is. He wouldn't understand why anyone would talk about it. Mind you, it was just two days prior that, as David mentioned, Donald Trump's defense was that it was a conspiracy created by Barack Obama. I don't know, let's take that at face value. That's not boring. If you're saying the former President of the United States created this and it just shows that they have not, not landed on a good defense. As you noted, this sort of right from the beginning always is a bit of an uncomfortable fit as a MAGA conspiracy because Trump did have at least some ties to Epstein. There's a bunch of photographs of them together. Now, Trump himself has not pushed this conspiracy nearly as hard as others in his orbit in recent years, but it has become a core piece of the MAGA movement. And what's so interesting is we sat on the show yesterday, it looked like the firestorm was petering out. We talked about how, how Charlie Kirk had said, well, I'm not going to talk about this anymore. And others in the right wing movement seemingly were getting in line and President Trump said, let's drop it. And they seemed like they were willing to. That changed again yesterday. Kirk did devote his show to this Fox News, which had largely ignored it for 24 hours. They talked about it, as noted, Megyn Kelly, Benny Johnson, they all jumped back on board. And most significantly to me anyway, was Speaker Mike Johnson, who has shown no appetite at all to defy Trump at this point during his tenure, has, you know, has been painted by others on the Hill as being almost afraid of his own shadow in terms of not wanting to defy the White House. But in this one yesterday, Mika, he did, calling for a full release of these, whatever files they may be, which stands in exact contrast of what the Oval Office wants.
- [15:04]
David French
Well, there's a reason for that. I mean, there are blatant conspiracies and then there is this legitimate, terrible, horrific case. Jeffrey Epstein was convicted of horrific crimes against many young girls and bringing other people in with the help of his girlfriend, who is Right now in jail for helping him over decades abuse young girls and bring young girls to lots of allegedly powerful men. Let's bring in co founder of Punchbowl News, John Bresnahan. Brez, I'm just wondering, you know, I think there are those who are concerned that Trump wants this case disappeared as a conspiracy, and yet too many people are bought into what happened because there's a legitimate case here and there are real victims. I don't think you can make this go away. The president seems to be trying. I'm wondering what you think about the speaker of the House. Does that carry any weight when ultimately these votes don't seem to push anything through it?
- [16:12]
Charlie Kirk
I mean, I do, I think, I think Johnson is under a lot of pressure from his conservatives. I mean, I think Johnson is reflecting the mood in his conference, which guys didn't mention is last week there was a vote in the Senate Appropriations Committee when they did the Commerce justice science bill. This is has to do with the FBI funding. They voted on an amendment to call for, you know, Pandi to release, to do a report on this and to release everything. And that was a unanimous vote. Republicans, Senate Republicans voted for, for it. There is pressure inside both sides of the Capitol for more the Trump administration to do more. This is not going away. I think, I think there's rank and file pressure there. The leadership, like you said, has tried to tamp it down and it's not going away because the base is upset about it. And these guys are very close to social media on, on what the, you know, talk radio and everything. They reflect what they hear and this is what they're reflecting, what it's hearing and it's percolating up to it. This is a real, real problem for him. And it's not going away.
- [17:17]
David French
You know, it's interesting when you hear President Trump because when he talks about the people who want justice in this case and want transparency in this case, it's like, put it away. He calls them bad people. He's calling MAGA bad people. And you have people on the right who have very strong, powerful voices, like Megyn Kelly who says this is BS and there's BS here and she's not giving up.
- [17:46]
Jonathan Lemire
No.
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Charlie Kirk
And I think, and I think this is a problem for him also. If you look at the history of this case, it's Florida, which is the heart of Republicanism. Now. The case came out in 2008. There was this plea deal that in the end of the Bush administration or Republican administration, there was a plea deal that There was a lot of criticism that Epstein got off really easy. And the remarkable thing is that kept going for a decade after that. There was. And then Epstein tried to be rehabilitated, and there was a lot of powerful figures who remained in his orbit. And then this was the base. This was average Americans were upset about what happened. And this powerful man with powerful friends getting away with, with crimes. And then he got a sweetheart deal. And this, you know, and this came out. And of course, his death happened during the Trump administration. There's no place for Republicans to hide on this. They can't hide behind Obama, they can't hide behind the Democrats. This happened on the Republicans watch. There's no place for Trump to go on this. He's going to have to give them something on this.
- [18:55]
Joe Scarborough
David, we can remind people that Pizza Gates, that people remember when a man went into a pizza shop in Washington, D.C. and actually fired actual shots, was based on another conspiracy theory that pedophiles and children were being held in the basement of a pizza shop in Washington. That wasn't true. But it just gets to this larger idea that you kind of laid out a minute ago, this working theory that America is governed by a ruling class of pedophiles. So for the people who are banging the drum so hard and they want to see files that Pam Bondi says don't exist, or a client list that she says, what do they expect to see if something does come to light, if everything is made public? What is their suspicion about what will be revealed in there?
- [19:39]
Jonathan Lemire
So I would say there's a small version of sort of the Epstein theory, and the big version of the Epstein theory. The small version, I think, is in some ways kind of legitimate. Is legitimate. I mean, Mika said it very well just a moment ago. You do have, unlike the QAnon theory, unlike Pizzagate, you have very real, very grim crimes here, around which there is frankly a lot of mystery. Why was he so well connected? All of those extremely well connected people that flew with him on his jet, that went with him on his private island, what did they see? What did they do? There are a lot of questions swirling around this case that I do think are legitimate questions about the case. That's what you would call sort of the small version of Epstein. The big version of Epstein really doesn't have questions, to be honest. It has convictions. And the conviction is that Epstein was at the epicenter of a global pedophilia ring that has pulled in everyone that's come in contact with that lives a tip of an iceberg it's not that we don't even know the full extent of the iceberg, that it's the tip of the iceberg. And so therefore, if you dug into Epstein, you would rip open. You would. Well, it'd be like lifting the rock, sorry, of on the entire ruling class of the United States of America. So they're small and then there's big. And in the small version. Well, look, I, I share a lot of questions about some of the weird elements of here. I mean, it is very strange that the most famous federal prisoner commits suicide so immediately and with such ease. I, I'm not going to say he didn't kill himself, but how did this happen? Why did happen?
- [21:31]
David French
Right.
- [21:31]
Jonathan Lemire
These are questions that are legitimate. It's legitimate to ask all of those people he's connected with, what did they see? What did they know? You know, Donald Trump had years of interactions with Epstein, has praised Epstein publicly in the past. What did he see? What did he know? And in that sense, he's always been a very odd vehicle for the, to sort of bring the Epstein matter to a closure because he was right there with Epstein during some of those partying years ago. I mean, you've got the videos, you've got the photographs. And so I do absolutely understand Americans who want to know more about this. There is something real that happened here, a series of very real crimes committed by one of the most connected people in the world. So, yeah, let's have more information. Now. That big version, that big version starts to then verge on the QAnon idea of the whole ruling class class in the grips of a pedophile ring or the whole ruling class being motivated by that. And there's one other element here that I've not seen people talk about, and that is the role of religious prophecy here. So it is also a number of these very deep, hardcore MAGA people, they don't just operate under this conviction that there's a ring of pedophiles. They also operate under this conviction that God appointed Trump to bring all these people to justice. And so this is creating an enormous amount of cognitive dissonance. And, and let's also not forget how many of these key MAGA figures spent years stoking it and saying, it's there, it's there, it's being suppressed by the Democrats. When it comes out, it's going to be terrible for the Democratic Party. And even as recently as this Fox interview where Blondie had said, well, it's on my desk, and she now says she was talking about the Epstein case file and not a list, but she was asked about a list. And so you have this maga. All of a sudden it's in this position of understanding that the administration either is not been honest with them, has used them, has used their fears and concerns to gain their support. So it's either not been honest or it's part of a cover up that you see this all over social media. Two options, they lied to us or they're part of it. And after some of the rhetoric you saw from Patel, from Bangino, from Vance, from Bondi, you understand why they feel lied to right now or, or in the alternative of the COVID up. And so this is very deeply emotionally impacting people. And when you understand maga, you understand why.
- [24:16]
David French
Well, also, if you're, you know, a citizen of this country or a reporter and you want answers, this doesn't make sense. None of it makes sense. Joe was saying back in 2016, this was bizarre, this was years before he was arrested, that this situation was bizarre. And there are reporters who had been following this case and said that this would be the biggest child sex trafficking, child sexual abuse case this country has ever seen. And yet it's covered up for different reasons. Prince Andrew's involved and different interests are involved. And it keeps getting tamped down. Now you have Bondi yesterday wouldn't just saying in a very kind of beaten down tone, no answer, we have nothing for you. Move on, we're not talking about it. And David French, to your point, lifting the rock on the entire ruling class, isn't that what maga's about? I mean, isn't that taking down these people who have truly controlled everything and opening it up and showing the answers here. And by the way, speaking of answers, Jeffrey Epstein's girlfriend, who is in all the pictures that you see with Jeffrey Epstein and all sorts of powerful people, even, even the president and his wife, there's Ghislaine Maxwell, she's everywhere and she's in jail right now for helping him in these child sex trafficking crimes. So there are answers to be had in many different ways. And in a way, it's treating MAGA like they're stupid, like they were wrong this whole time searching for justice for hundreds of young girls who were abused at the hands of the power, powerful co founder of Punchbowl News, John Bresnahan. Thank you so much for coming on this morning. Appreciate your insights. Still a lot of questions though. Still ahead on Morning Joe, Congress faces a Friday deadline to pass President Trump's $9 billion spending cut. Package. We'll take a closer look at the legislation and how it could impact Americans. Plus, we'll bring you the latest on the war in Ukraine as Russia continues to attack and President Trump ramps up his calls to end the war. And a reminder that the Morning Joe Podcast is available each weekday, featuring our full conversations and analysis. You can listen wherever you get your podcasts. You're watching Morning Joe. We'll be right back.
- [27:09]
Jonathan Lemire
The bottom line is, even as the.
- [27:11]
Megyn Kelly
Trump administration tries to end abortion access.
- [27:14]
Jonathan Lemire
Slash funding and shut down health centers.
- [27:16]
Willie Geist
Planned Parenthood continues its vital work without flinching. The assault on reproductive health is strategic and persistent.
- [27:24]
Jonathan Lemire
And who gets hurt the most?
- [27:25]
Megyn Kelly
Women?
- [27:26]
Willie Geist
People of color?
- [27:27]
Jonathan Lemire
Rural communities? Folks with low incomes?
- [27:29]
Willie Geist
The people who already face the biggest barriers to care.
- [27:32]
Jonathan Lemire
If you believe everyone deserves to control their own body and future, donate now@plannedparenthood.org.
- [27:38]
Mika Brzezinski
Defend MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the.
- [27:43]
Jonathan Lemire
Briefing We've never experienced a moment like.
- [27:46]
Joe Scarborough
This in our country, and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we gonna speak out or are we gonna be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies.
- [28:00]
David French
You don't need to be hopeless.
- [28:01]
Joe Scarborough
We have our voices, and I will continue using mine.
- [28:04]
Mika Brzezinski
The Briefing with Jen Psaki Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favor.
- [28:21]
Joe Scarborough
The second Trump administration has gone to.
- [28:22]
Megyn Kelly
Unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.
- [28:26]
Mika Brzezinski
Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC, delivered to your inbox. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [28:42]
Joe Scarborough
President Trump has placed conditions on the military aid the United States is sending to Ukraine. Meanwhile, Russians don't appear to be concerned about president and Trump's tariff threats if Vladimir Putin does not agree to a peace deal. NBC News chief international correspondent Keir Simmons has details.
- [29:00]
I
24 hours after announcing the US will send Ukraine weapons paid for by NATO allies, President Trump warning they should not be used on Russia's capital.
- [29:10]
Charlie Kirk
Should Zelensky target Moscow or deeper into Russia?
- [29:13]
Donald Trump
He shouldn't target Moscow.
- [29:14]
I
After the Financial Times reported President trump on a July 4th telephone call call asked the Ukrainian leader if he could strike inside Russia, citing people briefed on the discussions who Said Trump asked Vladimir, can you hit Moscow? Can you hit St. Petersburg, too? The White House disputing the report, saying President Trump was merely asking a question, not encouraging further killing outside the Kremlin. Russians responding with defiance. Does it scare you?
- [29:41]
Joe Scarborough
Nope. Why not?
- [29:44]
Willie Geist
Why, to Russia's care means I believe.
- [29:46]
Jonathan Lemire
In peace between Russia and America.
- [29:49]
I
Kyiv and many Ukrainian cities have been bombarded by Russia, often with missiles. While Ukraine has mostly used drones like this strike for its attacks inside Russia, President Trump has threatened punishing tariffs on Russia and its trading partners if President Putin does not agree to a peace deal in 50 days.
- [30:07]
Donald Trump
I've been very disappointed with President Putin. I've solved a lot of wars in the last three years, three months, but I haven't gotten this one yet.
- [30:15]
I
We met Alexander, who cuts keys and repairs shoes for a living. He says business has improved. We don't give a damn about Trump, he told us.
- [30:24]
Joe Scarborough
NBC's Keir Simmons reporting there from Moscow. So, Jonathan, unclear which wars have been, quote, solved in the last three months. We'll put that to the side. But obviously, this shift in tone over the last week or so, not just tonally, but also pushing more weapons toward Ukraine, a huge shift for President President Trump.
- [30:40]
Willie Geist
A huge shift for the moment and a welcome one. But it only goes so far. You know, as I wrote for the Atlantic yesterday, President Trump got tough with President Putin, sort of for now, like that. That's where this is. And look, NATO allies are grateful for the defensive weapons that are coming. There's gonna be some time before they get there. But the Patriot missile batteries will make a real difference in Ukraine defending itself. There had been talk of offensive weapons as well. That's not part of this package. Not ruled out by the White House, but it's not what they're doing now. And as we heard, the White House pushing back against the idea that President Trump authorized strikes deep into Russia, saying, no, we don't want that. But I will say some from the Ukrainians now, the euphoria of that first 24 hours after President Trump's decision has sort of worn off. There has been a sense of, like, well, he said that Russia could have, you know, the sanctions would come in 50 days. If Russia didn't come to the table seeking peace in 50 days, that's when the US would ramp up its sanctions. Well, first of all, the US does very little trade with Russia, so those aren't very significant. The secondary ones with China and India, those would be more so.
- [31:39]
Jonathan Lemire
So.
- [31:40]
Willie Geist
But as a person close to the Ukrainian government put to me yesterday. Well, you sort of gave Putin 50 days now of free reign that he can do what he wants without necessarily any American consequences. Now, maybe President Trump would shift that timeline. You know, maybe he would adjust things if he feels like Russia's continuing to take advantage of him. And that is what fueled this, Willie, more than anything, is not a shift in his strategic worldview, but rather he was tired of being played by Putin, grew angry, grew humiliating, affiliated, decided to act.
- [32:08]
Joe Scarborough
The default setting on President Trump. David French long has been, well, deference maybe, but at least friendliness to Vladimir Putin. That's changed a little bit in the last week or so. How much stock do you put in this sort of new posture from President Trump toward Putin? Do you think it lasts?
- [32:27]
Jonathan Lemire
Well, there's no way to know. I mean, but look, let's look at the recent past. He's moved from being what you might call anti Ukraine, Ukraine, virtually switching sides, putting almost all the pressure on Ukraine early on in his administration to now is what I would call a very weaker version of the Joe Biden approach, which was to provide Ukraine with weapons, often slowly, sadly, and with too many limits. But at least he stood with Ukraine. We're now moving towards a weaker version of that. It's progress, I suppose. But I do think after that initial burst of euphoria, which is appropriate for Ukraine to feel because there was real fear that Trump was just effectively switching sides in this conflict to the idea that he was now saying stern words about Vladimir Putin. Now there is this sobering realization that 50 days is a long time. And even this economic threat at the end of the 50 days is not nearly as effective as a threat of more weapons, more military support. Economic sanctions matter. But one thing that's been surprising to a lot of people over the course of this war is how little they have actually harmed the Russian economy, at least compared to hopes and expectations. But what has worked at holding back Russia is raw military strength, raw military strength enhanced by the most capable American weapons that has been more effective than anything at holding back Putin. And so to say now we are at least going to give some weapons, that's progress. It's Progress. But this 50 day deadline, which is coming in the middle of this serious summer offensive where Russia is unleashing some of the largest attacks, aerial attacks that we've seen in the entire war, is pressing Ukraine at multiple points on the front, this is not a good moment and not a good time for Ukraine in this war. Ukraine's had some successes, but it's under intense pressure in this 50 day limit. When it was first announced, you began to see reports from Russia that they took that as a permission structure. They're taking that as a, as a period to, in which they could exert maximum effort to try to, to break the Ukrainian line. So we're moving in a better direction, but we're still really, really far from where we need to be. And he's moving in this direction not because he's suddenly judged that defending Ukraine's in our best national interests. It seems like he's moving in the direction more out of personal pique. He's kind of mad at Putin, which is a very unstable way to run American foreign policy.
- [35:02]
David French
New York Times opinion columnist David French, as always, thank you very much. Thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. We appreciate it. And coming up on Morning Joe, we'll have new reporting on Zoran Mamdani's mayoral campaign and the phrase he says he will not, the phrase he says he will not use after meeting with dozens of business leaders yesterday in New York City. Plus, the Trump administration says it's scaling down its military operation in Los Angeles following the protests over ICE raids in the city. We'll bring you the latest on that. MORNING JOE is coming right back.
- [35:41]
Jonathan Lemire
As.
- [35:42]
Mika Brzezinski
President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting.
- [35:57]
Jonathan Lemire
The American The American people are basically.
- [36:00]
Joe Scarborough
Telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.
- [36:03]
Mika Brzezinski
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at msnbc.com project47. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts.
- [36:42]
David French
Just about 20 minutes before the top of the hour. Time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. The United States is joining forces with 18 other nations to conduct three weeks of military drills in Australia. It's an effort to send a message to China that America's allies are prepared to act in tandem against any aggression from Beijing. 40,000 troops are involved from personnel from Japan, South Korea, the Philippines and several European countries. Defense Secretary Pete Hagseth is ordering the removal of 2,000 National Guard troops from Los Angeles. At least 4,000 troops were mobilized there last month after protests broke out over ICE raids and President Donald Trump's immigration policies. Their deployment marks the first time a president ordered National Guard troops without a governor's permission, setting off a clash between California Governor Gavin Newsom and President Trump. Newsom called the president's decision to deploy the troops an assault on democracy and military overreach. And the Democratic nominee for New York City mayor says he will discourage people from using the term globalize the intifada. Zoran Mamdani has faced crime criticism on the campaign trail for previously refusing to condemn the phrase, which has been seen as a call to violence against Jews. Mamdani's shifting language comes amid a general election battle against Mayor Eric Adams and former Governor Andrew Cuomo, who are running as independents, and the Republican nominee, Curtis Sliwa.
- [38:31]
Joe Scarborough
Willie New York Times reporter Curtis covering Wall Street, Lauren Hirsch is following the latest on all this. She joins us now. Also with us President of the National Action Network and the host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, Reverend Al Sharpton. Good morning to you both. So Lauren, let's pick up on this meeting with Zoran Mamdani. Yesterday, business leaders in New York City, some heavyweights in the room, some who decided not to attend, Jamie Dimon had a scheduling conflict. He was not there. What did they hear from him? Did, did he sort of assuage their suspicions at all about him? What was it like in the room?
- [39:05]
Megyn Kelly
They heard a really charming, affable guy who was well prepared. He made jokes, he made self deprecating jokes, but they did not hear someone who changed his policies. And so if you had concerns about his economic policies going into the meeting, you had the same concerns going out. For some people, the charm and his disarming nature was, was enough to calm people a little bit. For others, the fact that he was very much sticking to his policies further enraged him. So there was a bit of a division coming out of the room in terms of response. But in the room it was mostly cordial, it was mostly pleasant. There was one quite pointed question, effectively saying, how can you tell us you're not going to drive business out of New York? And he danced around it a bit. I think his message was I believe strongly in my policies, but I, I don't think they're bad for business. And I think many of the business leaders saw a little bit of a disconnect in how you connect those two dots. But overall, they found a nice, charming guy and they were, you know, they appreciated the fact that he wanted to meet with them.
- [40:05]
Joe Scarborough
This is a guy who can't. He's not trying to run from who he is, which is, I'm a Democratic socialist. He said just a week ago, billionaires should not exist.
- [40:13]
Megyn Kelly
Yeah.
- [40:14]
Joe Scarborough
When asked there were some billionaires in the room, he said, I'm gonna tax you more. That's, that's true. But I believe it's the best thing for our city. What about the story that Mika just walked us through where he said, okay, I won't use the phrase globalize the intifada, and I will discourage others from using it almost sort of grudgingly, because he's refused to say, refused to condemn that language even as recently, the last few days.
- [40:40]
Megyn Kelly
Right. So that answer came after he was being pushed on Israel and his views on that by way, the. The CEO of Pfizer. And my understanding is it was a fairly long response before he got to it. Some people were very happy to hear that. And as I said, some people, it's never going to be enough. So others weren't mollified. But. And by the way, one person I spoke to didn't even hear it. It was interesting. I called him back. I was like, did he say this? He was like, no, I didn't hear it. So I think there is an element of almost hearing what you want to hear as you go through this process.
- [41:09]
Willie Geist
And it'll be interesting to watch if he does. You know, maybe he's moderating on this or they're other positions. He also takes more of a slightly centrist tact as he heads to a general election. That would obviously be a play that we've seen from other progressives. Also of note, he really praised Boston Mayor Michelle Wu, who's wildly popular in Boston, and distanced himself from Chicago Mayor Brandon Johnson. Decidedly less so. Rev. But he also enters a race here where the setup seems to really favor him. First of all, anytime there's a, you have a D next to your name, you're the Democratic nominee in a deep blue city. That is helpful. He's got that. But if Andrew Cuomo and Eric Adams both persist in this race and are both vying for the same sort of, sort of centrist vote, they split. That. That only helps them. Donnie.
- [41:52]
J
No, I think the fact that Andrew Cuomo has now announced he's in the race, which I, among others, asked him not to. Let's have a one on one. The fact that he's in makes it highly unlikely that Zuran does not win. I talked to some people last night, night who were part of the partnership meeting, and they were relatively impressed with Zoran. They had very serious concerns, and they were impressed. He's very charismatic, which we found. He came twice to National Action Network, and some of them agreed with him, some disagreed, but they say he's a lot more personable and more informed than they thought. I've said to him when he's come with with us that, you know, in my early days, you would say things or identify with people that say things that you should just say, that is not right. That is not what I meant. He went as far as saying he will tell people not to say it again, but you've got to say it's not right. It's not right to talk about things or say things that is morally wrong. So I think that he will in many ways not give up what he believes, but then he has to be judged by what he believes, and I think he's willing to take the penalty for that.
- [43:10]
Willie Geist
So, Laura, in a similar vein, the people you talk to in that room who might be more inclined to support an Adams or a Cuomo, what's their view on the two of them both staying in and complicating things?
- [43:22]
Megyn Kelly
Not happy. I mean, a lot of Wall street donors have really been pushing one or for them, ideally both to drop. They want a real competitor. So they were unhappy, be that that Cuomo decided to say. And of course, Cuomo still has supporters and he will continue to have supporters. But I think they see a little bit of writing on what they think is the writing on the wall, given the race as it stands now.
- [43:43]
Joe Scarborough
And so what is their fear if Mamdani does become the mayor of New York City? I mean, they sort of vocalize them in that room. Yes, but what are their specific fears about what happens to the city?
- [43:54]
Megyn Kelly
So one of the biggest things that I hear is just lack of experience. You know, you can talk about taxes, you can talk about his other policies, but they really wonder whether or not he just has the experience to run the city. Like, these people are managers. They know the challenges that come with that. There's, of course, concerns about him freezing rent, about taxes, about New York City's competitiveness. There is a lot of conversation around people fleeing New York, and it's easy to dismiss it, and of course, it is hard to pick up and leave. But we did see some companies do that during the pandemic, and it has become easy year with remote work and the world that we're living in. So I do think we will see some companies. Will it be an exodus? That's not clear. But I think there is a genuine concern it could impact the New York economy. And then I should say crime. It's another, it's a really big focal point for them and of course plays into whether or not people would want.
- [44:42]
Joe Scarborough
To leave, given some of his past statements about the police in the city. But again, he's trying to bring back to the center slightly. It's hard to run from some of his positions. New York Times reporter Lauren Hirsch. Lauren, thanks so much. Good to have have you on. Coming up next, New York Governor Kathy Hochul joins us to discuss the impact of President Trump's policies on this state as well as a major issue heading into next school year. She'll tell us what that is. Also ahead, a dramatic ending to Major League Baseball's All Star Game decided by the first ever swing off. We'll tell you what that is when we come back.
- [45:35]
Jonathan Lemire
Eyes all burning holes through you. Schwarber in the air to center field headed towards the wall and on his first swing and he did swore bombs in the All Star Game. AL rallied in the game. NL has rallied in the swing with the ham. Look out chop house. National League takes the lead four to three.
- [46:07]
Joe Scarborough
So what are you watching there? That is not the Home Run Derby from two nights ago. That's the actual All Star Game last night. Kyle Schwarber winning the game for the National League in the game's first ever swing off, kind of baseball's equivalent of penalty kick shootout in soccer. The game tied after nine innings. Six. Six. So they go to this swing off. The National League had a big lead in the bottom of the six after Pete Alonso's three run. Home run to right field made it five nothing. Couple of batters later, Corby Corbin Carroll of the D Backs hit a solo shot. It's six nothing. Looks like the game's over, but the next inning, Brent Rooker of the A's got the American League on the board with a three run shot. All of a sudden you got a ballgame. The AL down two in the top of the ninth. Bobby Witt Jr. It's a double to right to score a run. It's coming, I swear. Later in the inning with the AL down to their last. Okay, here's Bob. I just lost my SportsCenter audition, but there it is. Okay, there's Bobby Witt now with the American League down to its last Strike. Stephen Kwan. There it is. Reached on an infield single to third, scoring Witt Jr. Now the game is tied. All right, we're all caught up. Six, six. So that sets up the swing off. Schorber, named the game's MVP for that effort. He's the first non pitcher to be hitless and still win the MVP award. He went.02 with a walk during the game's nine innings. Jonathan Lemire, as you reminded me this morning, the stakes are a little lower. This does not decide who hosts the World Series, so why not? Let's have a swing off. It was kind of fun. And Schwarber, the former Boston Red Sox delivered.
- [47:47]
Willie Geist
Yeah, the more Kos Schwarber in our lives, the better. I think we all agree with that. He's one of the most fun players in the game. Yeah, that's my take too. Why not? I think your comparison with penalty kicks in soccer seems apt. Something that's sort of a part of the game, but not really. But why not? It's an exhibition. It stopped determining home field advantage. World Series a few years ago. This is. I look, I think the All Star Game is still fun. All Star games are meaningless. They're exhibitions. Baseball is by far the best All Star Game of the major sports. I watched last night with one of my sons. It is fun to see your players in there. I'm glad they went back to wearing their own uniforms as opposed to the AL only ones or whatever. And I'll also say, Willie, we just mentioned it as we came in All Star Game in Atlanta last night. The tribute to Hank Aaron was really, really, really well done. Great to see him get that remembrance on the national stage.
- [48:38]
Joe Scarborough
Yeah. If you haven't seen that, check it out. They turned off the lights, recreated it with the radio call. It was a beautiful moment. And to your point, it's just fun to watch Paul Skeen's pitch to Aaron Judge. And you don't get to see that outside of the All Star Game.
- [48:51]
Willie Geist
Got him to ground out.
- [48:52]
Joe Scarborough
He did. Two strikeouts and a ground out. Skeens was dealing last night, as he always is.
- [48:56]
Mika Brzezinski
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, Nicole speaks with legendary songwriter and music producer Jimmy Jam. I treat it like a privilege to be able to do that, to be.
- [49:10]
Jonathan Lemire
Able to speak to people, to be.
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Mika Brzezinski
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Jonathan Lemire
But I get to do it from music.
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Mika Brzezinski
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