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- [00:00]
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- [00:28]
Daily Wire Announcer
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- [00:57]
Daily Wire Announcer
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- [01:03]
William Doyle
I think the reason that Finns are satisfied and content with their society more than any other society, that's really the definition of the happiness index, I think, is that it is a capitalist paradise.
- [01:17]
Narrator
For the ninth year in a row, Finland has been ranked the happiest country on earth. They also received the highest ranking for freedom, largely due to pro business policies.
- [01:26]
Georgia Howe
In this episode, we sit down with a New York Times best selling author and expert on Finnish education policy to discuss what Finland gets right and what America can learn from their success. I'm Georgia Howe with Daily Wire Executive editor John Bickley and this is a weekend episode of Morning Wire
- [01:46]
Daily Wire Announcer
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- [03:49]
Georgia Howe
Joining us now to discuss how Finland has consistently outranked other nations in citizen well being is William Doyle. He's the author of Let the Children Play, which examines the root of Finland's education success. And he's also a lecturer of Finland. William, thank you so much for coming on.
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William Doyle
It's great to be with you. Thank you.
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Georgia Howe
So we're going to discuss the education system, which is also a big piece of this puzzle. But I want to discuss the persistent finding that Finnish people report very high ratings of well being. Finland was recently rated again the happiest country in the world for nine years and counting. And it's also been rated the freest nation, which is really interesting. So I want to unpack a little bit of how that was calculated. But first, do you think accounts for the happiness that people are experiencing in Finland? And do you think that ranking accurately captures a real feeling there?
- [04:41]
William Doyle
That's a really good question. The mechanics of this poll are sometimes disputed inside Finland because the definition of the word happiness in some contexts is, you know, joy and outgoing jubilation. And that's not the daily rhythm of the personalities here in Finland. It's much more stoic and they're wonderful people. I've lived among them for five plus years. But you know, the winters here are brutal and long. The economy is stuck in low growth, high unemployment, worse than the European average, by the way. But in fact, the Finland ranks number one in a whole spectrum of indexes on you mentioned the freest nation on earth. That's according to the bipartisan think tank Freedom House in out of Washington D.C. in answer to your question, I think the reason that Finns are satisfied and content with their society more than any other society, that's really the definition of the happiness index, I think, is that it is a capitalist paradise. It is not, you hear that it's a socialist welfare state. It's actually the opposite that compares favorably with the United States according to the Heritage foundation in several key indexes. And I can tell you that living here, there's a lot I think that the United States can learn from Finland. There are many things you cannot do in the United States that are done in Finland, but it's. I think everybody should come here and visit to see, just to look at America in a slightly different way perhaps. I think we would all do better and vice versa. Finland has a lot to learn from the United States.
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Georgia Howe
Now I'm very interested to unpack some of the things that you just said there. But you talked about how there's a distinction between say, joy and contentedness. And I have heard the same thing that Finnish people kind of look around and say, who are they talking to with all these joyful, happy people? That's not necessarily the fact that they feel on the ground, but contentedness and satisfaction with life. That may actually be quite true there. So what do you think accounts for that satisfaction and contented feeling in Finland that we don't always see in other places?
- [07:06]
William Doyle
Well, one reason is right across the street from me. It's the world's largest national forest per capita. So the daily immersion in nature I think may be the highest tier than in most other countries. That's one reason. There's another. There's a culture here of egalitarianism and community spirit. Finland is not really a welfare state. It is a well being state. The difference is that the Finnish society and government thinks that everyone should flourish and have an opportunity to flourish rather than everyone is guaranteed free money.
- [07:44]
Georgia Howe
Now, how does that actually play out when it comes to the policies and then even maybe what people's expectations are for each other in terms of like a social contract.
- [07:54]
William Doyle
Georgia, that's a great question. There are three things here that I would argue are the best in the world that America can learn from. Number one is public transportation is nearly at perfect levels. The healthcare system is spectacular. There is a private healthcare system and a public health care system that is excellent. It's under strain, but it is excellent. Third is the schools. Every parent here, and I'm a parent of a child who spent some time here in finished schools, every parent here has the same expectation as, for example, a New York parent, which I was sitting on the park bench, all the parents talk to each other about, hey, I've got to get the best school for my child, the best, and that's, that's the way it should be. But I always forgot the second half of the sentence, which is that everybody else's child deserves the best school too, but. Or my society will be weak and at a disadvantage by the time my child becomes an adult. That's an assumption. Again, it's not a perfect system, but it results in a very well educated workforce and I think a happier nation.
- [09:08]
Georgia Howe
Now, there are some behaviors that are shown to consistently produce contentedness. One thing is religiosity, and then the other very common thing is strong social network. Of course, those two things tend to dovetail together, but you can have one without the other. I think of the United States as having in some ways more than average religiosity, but we also have this epidemic of loneliness that we hear a lot about. Whereas when I think of Finland, and I could be wrong and you can correct me, but I think of them as being less religious but in some ways having a more interconnected society. So would you say that's accurate and what are your observations about Finnish religiosity and. Or social inter. Interconnectedness.
- [09:48]
William Doyle
Yeah, that's great. It sounds kind of like a small town. It's a nation that's a small town. It's only not much more than 5 million people. But of course that's roughly similar in demographics and size to, I think it's 2/3 or 3/4 of American states are 5 to 10 million people, you know, 10% immigrants and so forth. So. But you're, you're putting your finger on something that's very interesting. Finnish people are not externally hyper religious and religion identifying, but they are. The society delivers on compassion and community, spirit and kindness. I think that spirituality here is very, very high, but maybe external religion is not. Church going is actually kind of low here. But the values, the religious values play out every day in compassion. Here's a good example. This country has won the World Olympics of child poverty. It's about 5%, maybe 10%, depending on how you measure it. That's compared to the United States at 20 to 30%, depending. And that in my opinion is one of the greatest measurements of a, a society's spirituality or compassion or for that matter, religious emphasis.
- [11:11]
Georgia Howe
And what about community? Do you see, for example, multi generational living or certain social traditions that most people are involved with collectively? Are there ways that you think Finland fosters community?
- [11:25]
William Doyle
I found it as an expat, as a friendly American, to have no problem making friends and connecting with people. People here, there are no barriers to that. I would tell you, Georgia, that a big part of what you're identifying, I think is compared to the United States, there's a tremendous lack of stress. And what I mean is in the United States we are in fear of medical bankruptcy, which is almost unheard of here, which you can fall into very, very easily in the United States, that's terrible stress. Generational education debt, where you have to pay off your school, your university debt for 10, 20, 30 years is unheard of here because the society decided that the higher education should be free. Very good higher education. That may strike people as a radical communist idea, but I think it's one of the ultimate conservative ideas. You know, the education system here was created by business, business leaders who thought that we need a free, universal, through higher education, excellent education system to be competitive and to sort of outsource that to a highly efficient, well run government system. Again, not perfect, but it's a different way of looking at education. And I think if Americans could just release their ideological blinders sometimes and think of just practical things, what, what could work, what could work better? Come to Finland, see what's happening here and make it even better in the United States. That's what I think we should do.
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Georgia Howe
Now, you mentioned that Finland is also the freest nation and there would be things that Americans would be surprised by in that regard. What kind of freedoms do Finnish people have that most Americans would be surprised by?
- [13:14]
William Doyle
Well, you know, Georgia, again, I keep coming back to socialism. It depends on how you define socialism. There's Stalinist socialism, there's Nazi socialism, and there's I suppose the socialism that the Nordic countries, Finland and several others have. But what's Extraordinary is that socialism to me means the government interferes in the free market that does not exist here. In fact, it's even better than the United States on that score. There are no political prisoners here. There haven't been, I think, in 80 years, if, if ever. And that's not the case in many other nations. So in terms of the government allowing business to flourish and capitalism to flourish and companies to conduct R and D, which is very heavily supported here by the government, these are definitions of freedom that I think we, many Americans could, could buy into. And that's, that's what I look for in a, in a government to leave business alone, to leave me alone, to let me publish and say anything I want to. And that's very much the case here. Although recently there was a controversial Finnish Supreme Court case where a doctor, member of parliament published a pamphlet that said homosexuality is a disorder. And that was interpreted as a verbal injury against a group of people that under the hate laws here was a punishable offense. I think she's getting fined, but it was really in the context of her being a doctor saying it's a medical disorder, which was false according to the laws at the time. So that may affect the index next year. And it's very controversial here in Finland and it even hit the American news as well.
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Georgia Howe
Now, was it controversial because of what she said or was it controversial that she was sanctioned for saying it?
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William Doyle
The context here, and by the way, Finland has been built in the last 80 years by a center right coalition largely. There is, however, a strong tradition of left wing politics. It's called the Social Democrats. There's also the left alliance. Sometimes they come into power in a coalition. So the point is that there is a tradition here of respecting free speech to a real extreme, I'd say, on both sides. So the controversy is really on the right here, the right wing, considering that, that the Member of Parliament should be free to say that she opposes homosexuality on biblical grounds. But again, it was the medical expression that she got in trouble with from the Supreme Court. And the, the, it's a very rare controversy, I should say that, you know, hate speech and these kinds of controversies are pretty, pretty rare here because it's, it's a very tolerant, open, open society to the left and the right.
- [16:22]
Georgia Howe
Now, I think in the United States, one thing that people on the right would say is they'd happily pay more for people to become competent engineers or competent nurses or doctors. But they would say we need to turn off the free money spigot for some of the More ideological indoctrination that doesn't necessarily produce super high functioning individuals in society. How does Finland keep their education system on track in terms of producing efficient graduates? And how do they avoid sliding down that track of funding any kind of bogus or overly ideological degrees that don't necessarily bear fruit for society?
- [16:59]
William Doyle
Georgia, I think it all, it comes down to K through 12 and higher education. In the last 20 years, Finland's international rankings or international test scores have significantly gone down. They used to be number one in the world in the year 2000. They're roughly at the OECD average now for, let's say 15 year olds. But here's the amazing thing. Today, according to the OECD latest measurements, this country, this small, freezing cold, distant nation, has the most skilled adults in the world in reading, math and problem solving. That all happened in K to 12, which was almost totally free of ideological indoctrination. In fact, religion is a required course here in Finland, a multiple study of religion or ethics, if you prefer that as a child. So the point is that the skills here that the Finns were teaching in their K to 12 from 1995 to 2003, let's say, are the skills that we need today. And it's not largely digital skills. It's arts and crafts, music, dance, physical activity, teamwork, and a lot of things that, you know, wood shop, metal shop, carpentry, a lot of the things that we have forgotten about here. My child, when he went to fifth grade here, had a kitchen. He was learning how to cook and how to work a washing machine and how to have recess four times per day so he could get energized to learn more in school. Much to learn here. I think it all really happens in K to 12. And the issue of indoctrination is not a hot issue here just because there, there hasn't been much of it.
- [18:51]
Georgia Howe
Well, it's an interesting cultural comparison. We think of Nordic countries as being very far left, but examples like that illustrate that their discourse is actually broader than ours to the right in some ways as well. William, thank you so much for coming on.
- [19:03]
William Doyle
Thank you. It's been great talking to you. Please come to Finland.
- [19:06]
Georgia Howe
Yeah, I'd love to.
- [19:08]
Narrator
That was New York Times bestselling author William Doyle, and this has been a weekend edition of Morning Wire.