The Man Who Thinks AI Could Surpass Humanity

Summary

Morning Wire: "The Man Who Thinks AI Could Surpass Humanity"
Date: May 31, 2026
Hosts: John Bickley, Georgia Howe
Guest: Sebastian Malaby (Author, "The Infinity Machine")

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Episode Overview

This episode of Morning Wire explores the rise and revolutionary potential of artificial intelligence (AI), focusing on the groundbreaking work of Demis Hassabis, co-founder of Google DeepMind. Journalist and author Sebastian Malaby delves into the human and scientific story behind today’s AI boom, arguing that we are at the dawn of a new era, one that could even surpass the significance of the Industrial Revolution. The conversation highlights AI’s real-world applications, especially in science, the personalities driving the field, and the emerging geopolitical stakes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is AI a True Scientific Revolution?

• Malaby’s Perspective:

  • Argues we're witnessing a revolution "probably bigger than the Industrial Revolution" ([04:44]).
  • Compares AI to "the invention of consciousness," noting it is the first time a new form of intelligence has emerged since humans themselves.

  “It’s more like the invention of consciousness. Last time we had a new form of intelligence that came into the world, it was human intelligence, and now we have machine intelligence.”
  — Sebastian Malaby ([04:48])

2. AlphaFold and AI in Science

• What is AlphaFold?

  • Developed by DeepMind in 2020, AlphaFold can unravel the shapes of all proteins in nature—over 200 million structures ([05:24]).
  • This leap accelerates drug discovery by making a once years-long process nearly instantaneous.

  “It used to be that...it could take a PhD biologist, you know, three or four years of work to find that shape...Now it’s just like Googling something. You just look it up in this database where all of the shapes have been stored for you by DeepMind.”
  — Sebastian Malaby ([06:36])

• AI’s Broader Impact:

  • The speed of discovery in medicine and material sciences is “much faster than it used to be.”
  • AI is expected to significantly impact fields like nuclear fusion ([05:58]).

3. The Origin and Significance of DeepMind

• DeepMind Pioneered the Modern AI Lab Model:

  • Founded in 2010 by Demis Hassabis.
  • Predates OpenAI (2015) and Anthropic (2020)—these newer projects “basically a copy of DeepMind” ([07:20]).

• Demis Hassabis’s Background:

  • Child chess prodigy, acclaimed video game designer as a teenager, and computer science student ([08:12]).
  • Turned down a lucrative offer to work and instead pursued college to deepen his understanding of computation.

4. Games: The Hidden Engine of AI’s Growth

• Why Gaming Was Essential:

  • Video games provided a simulation-rich environment for AIs to learn autonomously through repetition ([10:01]).
  • Initial breakthroughs involved agents mastering ATARI games without prior instructions.
  • DeepMind’s AlphaGo defeated a world champion in Go in 2016, showcasing AI’s novel strategizing abilities ([10:01]).

  “It invents new strategies that humans had never thought of. And so that’s more than just imitating humans. It’s actually inventing something completely novel.”
  — Sebastian Malaby ([12:53])

5. The Unique Motivation of Demis Hassabis

• Contrast with Other Tech Leaders:

  • Elon Musk: driven by industrial ambition ([11:23]).
  • Sam Altman: driven by the pursuit of power and influence.
  • Hassabis: driven by “scientific curiosity” and a deep, almost spiritual, quest to understand the fundamental nature of reality ([11:23]).

  “He’s possessed...by his desire to understand what he calls the fabric of reality. And he believes this so strongly that he expresses it in quasi spiritual terms.”
  — Sebastian Malaby ([11:23])

6. Beyond Human Mimicry: Is AI Creative?

• AI Isn’t Just Imitative:
  • In domains like Go, AI demonstrates creativity and produces novel solutions beyond human precedent ([12:53]).
  • Raises philosophical questions about consciousness, which Malaby sidesteps in favor of focusing on observable, creative output.

7. The Geopolitics of AI

• AI as a Strategic Asset:

  • Compared to nuclear material in terms of national security significance ([13:52]).
  • Potential for military applications (e.g., drone swarms, cyberwarfare).
  • US-China competition likened to a technological Cold War.

  “AI is like the new nuclear material... So this is a super powerful weapon.”
  — Sebastian Malaby ([13:52])

8. Surprising AI Capabilities

• Protein Folding Explained:
  • AI predicts 3D protein structure from DNA sequences, a task with “trillions of different ways” akin to “self-executing origami” ([14:25]).
• AI-Assisted Coding:
  • Today, “around half of the code” in the software world is written collaboratively with AI ([15:00]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "It’s more like the invention of consciousness." — Sebastian Malaby ([04:48])
• “You just look it up in this database where all of the shapes have been stored for you by DeepMind. So it saves you a lot of time.” — Sebastian Malaby ([06:36])
• “He’s possessed...by his desire to understand what he calls the fabric of reality...expresses it in quasi spiritual terms.” — Sebastian Malaby ([11:23])
• "It invents new strategies that humans had never thought of. And so that’s more than just imitating humans. It’s actually inventing something completely novel." — Sebastian Malaby ([12:53])
• "AI is like the new nuclear material... So this is a super powerful weapon." — Sebastian Malaby ([13:52])
• "Let’s say around half of the code these days is being written by code [by AI]." — Sebastian Malaby ([15:00])

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Important Timestamps

• [04:33]: Malaby explains why AI may be an even bigger revolution than industrialization.
• [05:24]: Overview of AlphaFold and its significance.
• [06:36]: The leap in protein structure prediction enabled by AI.
• [07:20]: The founding and legacy of DeepMind.
• [08:12]: The formative years and motivations of Demis Hassabis.
• [10:01]: How games powered early AI breakthroughs (ATARI, Go).
• [11:23]: What drives Demis Hassabis compared to other tech leaders.
• [12:53]: Discussion on whether AI is simply mimicking or is truly creative.
• [13:52]: Geopolitical implications: AI as the “new nuclear material.”
• [14:25]: Layman’s explanation of protein folding and AI’s role.
• [15:00]: AI’s game-changing co-author role in programming.

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Tone & Language

Throughout, the episode maintains an accessible yet thought-provoking tone. Malaby shares stories in vivid, human terms—describing Hassabis as “possessed” by curiosity, likening protein folding to origami, and describing present-day AI like an “encyclopedia for proteins.” The conversation is engaging, sometimes awe-filled, with an undercurrent of caution about the strategic and societal impacts of these technologies.

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Summary

Sebastian Malaby’s discussion on Morning Wire situates AI as the central technological force of our time, powered by visionary figures like Demis Hassabis. From revolutionizing drug discovery with AlphaFold to reshaping software engineering and geopolitics, AI’s impact is described as both creatively generative and potentially transformative at an unprecedented scale. The episode deftly balances technical explanation with human narrative, illustrating not only what AI can do, but also the motivations and philosophical ambitions of those leading the charge.

Transcript

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[John Bickley]

for years, artificial intelligence was treated like science fiction or a Silicon Valley party trick. Then, almost overnight, it began writing code, designing proteins and raising a question that suddenly feels less than theoretical. Can machines actually think?

[Georgia Howe]

In his new book, the Infinity Machine, journalist Sebastian Malaby traces how a moved from academic obscurity to the center of science, business and geopolitics.

[John Bickley]

And at the heart of that story is a man named Demis Hassabas, the chess prodigy and Google DeepMind co founder whose work helped launch the modern AI race.

[Georgia Howe]

Malaby joins us today to explain the human story about how Hasabis got us here, how AI is already changing, and why the next breakthroughs may be far bigger than chatbots.

[John Bickley]

I'm Daily Wire Executive Editor John Bickley with Georgia Howe. This is a weekend edition of Morning wire.

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[John Bickley]

Joining us now is Sebastian Malaby, an acclaimed journalist and author, a contributing columnist at the Washington Post and senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations. He's also a two time Pulitzer Prize finalist and he's got a new book, the Infinity Machine, which takes us inside the race to build artificial intelligence and the people that are trying to shape its future. You've got a lot going on, Sebastian. Great to have you on.

[Sebastian Malaby]

Great to be with you.

[John Bickley]

So first, are we really at the beginning of a scientific revolution with AI? That's what a lot of people believe. Is this true or are we just in a commercial boom that looks bigger

[Sebastian Malaby]

than it is No, I think it's a real scientific revolution. I think it's probably bigger than the Industrial Revolution, although that was enormous. It's more like the invention of consciousness. Last time we had a new form of intelligence that came into the world, it was human intelligence, and now we have machine intelligence.

[John Bickley]

So, bigger than the Industrial Revolution. That's obviously a huge claim. And as you highlight in your book, the scientific arena appears to be poised for perhaps the most important advancements with the use of AI. Before we go further, you've written about the AlphaFold, which has a major scientific application. What exactly is AlphaFold and why does it matter so much?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Sure. AlphaFold was a system invented in 2020 by DeepMind, the Google AI subsidiary in London. And what it does is it unravels all of the shapes of proteins in nature, like 200 million different intricate protein shapes so that you can see how they look and therefore you can figure out what kind of compounds might bind onto them. This is useful for building new medicines, for example.

[John Bickley]

And you believe this is going to be something that's a major player in the advancement of science, correct?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Absolutely. I mean, I think all kinds of scientific frontiers will be more crackable in the future than they have been in the past. We already see that in medicine with, you know, faster drug discovery, although the clinical trial process is still very long. So we haven't seen actual drugs in human beings making them healthy yet. But the discovery process is faster than it used to be. Material sciences is going to be affected. Progress in nuclear fusion is going to be affected. It's going to be a big deal.

[John Bickley]

All right, so we're seeing AlphaFold being used in drug development. What would you consider proof that it really can make a difference in the real world?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Well, when I say it's working, what I mean is I've spoken to researchers who are running pharmaceutical companies, and they use this tool all the time. It used to be that you wanted to find the shape of the target protein onto which your medicine was going to bind. And it could take a PhD biologist, you know, three or four years of work to find that shape, because these proteins are very complicated and intricate in their shape. And now it's just like Googling something. You just look it up in this database where all of the shapes have been stored for you by DeepMind. So it saves you a lot of time.

[John Bickley]

Now, you've mentioned DeepMind a couple of times. What is DeepMind? What sets a DeepMind apart from other AI projects?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Yeah, so it's interesting. I mean, DeepMind was the original AI discovery lab set up in 2010. And then when OpenAI, which is maybe a bit more famous, especially in the US was created in 2015, it was basically a copy of DeepMind. And then Anthropic, also famous, came five years after that. And so DeepMind was the original. And it was set up by this guy, Demis Asabis, who is a British Silicon Valley folks like to say they've got the melting pot. This guy had a Chinese Singaporean mother and a Greek Cypriot father, which makes him a classic Londoner. And he believed in AI he believed it was going to work. And he set up DeepMind in London in 2010.

[John Bickley]

I wanted to ask you exactly about him. So Demis Hassabis, a brilliant guy. Can you give us a little background on him so we got a sense of who he is and what his mission is?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Yeah. So when he was about four or five years old, he climbed up on a chair and watched his dad playing chess and instantly understood the game. And then within a year or two, he was playing in tournaments, at chess. And then a few years later, he was the best youth player in Britain and was the captain of the team and the second best player worldwide. And then he decided that chess wasn't enough for him, and he branched into coding, and he wrote a video game design which sold like 5 million copies before he was 18. And then the boss of the video game design studio said, hey, you're so good at this, I'll give you more than a million bucks if you just stay with me and work with me and you don't go to college. And he said, no, I'm going to college. And he went and did computer science.

[John Bickley]

So how is the development of AI Tied so intimately with this particular figure?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Well, the extraordinary thing is that Demis Isabis had this vision that you could build powerful AI really, really early. And just to set the context here, in 2010, when he created DeepMind, AI could not recognize the photograph of a cat. Like, AI could do nothing. It was deep, deep AI winter. And it was only in 2012 that anything began to work. And so part of that making it work was Demis and his team at DeepMind building an agent that could play all kinds of different, simple video games. There's this suite called the ATARI suite. You know, games like Pong, Breakout, SeaQuest, and so forth. And they built an agent that, without being told the rules of these games, could figure out how to play it by itself and then figure out strategies for winning and get really strong at them. And so this was an early proof that AI was going to work.

[John Bickley]

All right. So his gaming background really ended up being key in the development of AI Absolutely.

[Sebastian Malaby]

So gaming was important partly because the games developers back in the day realized that if they had AI, they could make the games more compelling and interesting and fun because you could have characters in the game that learnt new behaviors based on the feedback they got from the player. So that kind of set the seed of the aspiration to build AI. But then also games turned out to be a fantastic environment in which to train an AI agent because you could play the game over and over and over, and the machine could learn by playing many times. And so after that Atari system I told you about, the next thing was to build an AI system that could win the game of Go, this ancient Chinese game. And in 2016, they went to Korea, played this big show match against a Korean champion, and the AI system defeated him.

[John Bickley]

Can the AI beat Hasabis in chess?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Absolutely. You know, ever since 1997, when the deep blue system that IBM had defeated Gary Kasparov in chess, it's been game over for humans, I'm afraid.

[John Bickley]

So after spending years with Hasabis, what did you find as the underlying thread for him? What is really driving him? There's a lot of emphasis on this with Elon Musk and others in the AI race. What do you think he's ultimately aiming for here? What is he trying to really accomplish?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Yeah, so I think, you know, different leaders in this space have different fundamental motivations. I think for Elon, he wants to be the biggest, baddest industrialist in the whole world. And he just wants to. If he sees the next fantastic technology, he wants to do that too. So space and electric vehicles wasn't enough for him. I think with Sam Altman, he wants power. You know, he thought of running for governor of California, allegedly, he thought of running for president. And AI is kind of a way to get to prominence and influence. And for Demis, Asabis is different. What drives him is scientific curiosity. He's possessed, I mean, possessed by his desire to understand what he calls the fabric of reality. And he believes this so strongly that he expresses it in quasi spiritual terms. He says to me, I see reality staring at me in the face, waiting to be discovered. And if I can understand it better, I'm getting closer to the intelligent being that may perhaps have created all of the order around us. Maybe that's God. Maybe if I can do AI understand the fabric of reality, I will be approaching God.

[John Bickley]

I think when a lot of average People like me engage with AI, all we see is that it's imitating human behavior. And it looks at and sort of aggregates and calculates what is the most likely, next thing or most likely response that a human would do, et cetera. A whole other level of consciousness is something else. I mean, do you actually agree with that?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Yeah, I think the consciousness word gets into tricky arguments because we don't really have a great definition for what consciousness is. So I'm going to sidestep that bit of it. But I think if you just don't worry about conscious or not, you just look at the outward behavior of these machine intelligences, you see that for example, in a domain like the game of Go, it not only beats humans, it invents new strategies that humans had never thought of. And so that's more than just imitating humans. It's actually inventing something completely novel. And so I do think that this is a creative intelligence that will come up with new knowledge, new science, new breakthroughs, and, you know, it's both exciting and scary.

[John Bickley]

Yeah, it is. And speaking of that, AI is becoming as strategically important as nuclear weapons or energy in many ways. Are we already in kind of a Cold War dynamic between the US and China in particular?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Absolutely. I mean, AI is like the new nuclear material. You know, you can use AI to make your weapons more destructive. You can have swarms of drones controlled by AI. You can use AI for cyber hacking, obviously for intelligence interpretation and collection. So this is a super powerful weapon.

[John Bickley]

What were some things that maybe surprised you in your research on this? When it comes to AI's capacity, what are some things that you feel that the average person doesn't realize AI can play a key role in?

[Sebastian Malaby]

Well, maybe the best way to answer is to describe what protein folding really entails. So you have a strand of amino acid. Imagine this string and it's got some DNA code on it. And the sequence of the DNA on that string predicts the way that the string will fold itself up like a self executing origami model into a super complicated, intricate shape with tentacles hanging off it and so forth. And to predict how that string will tie itself up into a knot and a strange shape, it could fold itself in trillions of different ways. How the heck do you predict that shape? And AI can do that. It can just look at the sequence of the code on the string and say, ah, here's what it's going to look like. I mean, it's way, way beyond what humans could imagine doing. The biggest example at the moment is the industry of writing code. I mean, software developers, almost all of them now do their jobs with kind of a co worker, which is an AI, which writes a bunch of the code for them. And, you know, you hear different estimates from different labs. But let's say around half of the code these days is being written by code.

[John Bickley]

Well, really amazing stuff. It's hard to wrap your mind around, but as you've highlighted, there's also a very human story behind all of this. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Sebastian Malaby]

Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me.

[Georgia Howe]

That was Sebastian Malaby, author of the Infinity Machine. And this has been a weekend episode of Morning Wire.