Morning Wire – "After That, the Dark: Andrew Klavan Unpacks His New Novel"

Date: October 25, 2025
Host: Georgia Howe (The Daily Wire)
Guest: Andrew Klavan (Author & Daily Wire Host)

Episode Overview

This episode of Morning Wire centers on Andrew Klavan’s new novel, After That, the Dark, the latest in his Cameron Winter mystery series. Klavan joins Georgia Howe to discuss his inspirations, literary influences, the intersection of faith and fiction in his work, the themes he explores in both his fiction and nonfiction writing, and his perspectives on the broader mystery and true crime genres.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Andrew Klavan’s Nightstand & Unread Books

• [01:48] Klavan shares his current reading list:
  • The Wasp Factory (not enjoying it)
  • A beautiful memoir (unnamed)
  • A book on the medieval liturgy's impact on consciousness
  • Admits he wishes he’d read more French literature and jokes about the French literary tradition.
    • Quote: "I think they should have just sat quietly in a corner and waited for European history to be over." – Andrew Klavan ([02:46])

2. The Cameron Winter Mystery Series

• [03:06] Klavan details the origins of Cameron Winter:
  • Initially created for a Christmas novella requested by famed mystery editor Otto Penzler.
  • Cameron Winter is an English literature professor with a shadowy past working for the government.
  • Explores the role of masculinity and the struggle for moral redemption.
    • Quote: "When you outlaw masculinity, only outlaws can be masculine. So I wanted to take a guy who really was a sort of, you know, a guy who was maybe morally questionable, and watch as he tried to make his way back into being a hero." – Andrew Klavan ([04:27])
  • Positions Winter as an "amateur detective," representing how ordinary people can confront evil.

3. Discussion of the New Book: After That, the Dark

• [06:12] Klavan calls this the best Cameron Winter novel yet.
  • Central theme: a love story between Winter (a hardened, unsentimental man) and a deeply convicted evangelical Christian woman.
  • The mystery is sparked by a "locked room" puzzle, drawing Winter into a dark plot involving government, science, and a mysterious company.
    • Quote: "It's as if he had walked into a love story that was already going on before he got there." – Andrew Klavan ([06:45])
  • The novel weaves themes of love, faith, and grief throughout the plot.

4. Christianity in the Cameron Winter Series

• [07:54] Christianity is a constant presence but not dogmatic:
  • Winter himself is not a believer, but not an atheist ("At this point, being an atheist is so dumb, I didn’t think I could invent a smart guy to be an atheist." – [07:55])
  • A mentor character, "the Recruiter," is an extreme evangelical who pushes Winter.
  • Klavan emphasizes Christianity as an underrepresented force in contemporary stories:
    • Quote: "I wanted Christianity to be a presence because I feel it's been written out of our lives... So I wanted it to be a real force, but I didn’t want it to be about, you know, you must believe in order to read these books." – Andrew Klavan ([08:45])

5. Kingdom of Cain: Klavan’s Nonfiction Exploration of Evil

• [09:17] Klavan discusses his nonfiction book released earlier in the year:
  • Examines three notorious murders (including Ed Gein, inspiration for Psycho and Silence of the Lambs) and their recurring presence in art.
    • Explores how these stories reflect societal anxieties, loss of faith, and the human spirit.
    • Delves into how the Ed Gein case shaped the entire slasher genre and raises themes such as transgenderism and our response to evil.

6. Violence, Grief, and the Mystery Genre

• [11:05] Klavan distinguishes his mysteries from gore-heavy crime fiction:
  • Focuses on the grief and tragedy caused by murder, rather than just the physical horror.
    • Quote: "When you kill somebody, you not only cut off a work of God’s creation, you separate that work from all the people who love them." – Andrew Klavan ([11:22])
  • The emotional aftermath is more important in his stories than graphic violence.

7. True Crime and the Meaning of Narrative

• [12:00] Klavan expresses admiration for "nonfiction novels" like Capote’s In Cold Blood and Mailer’s The Executioner’s Song.
  • Prefers finding deeper meaning in real stories over simple reportage.
    • Quote: "I want to get at the meaning of things. And I think that fiction is actually a better way of doing that." – Andrew Klavan ([12:10])
• Discusses the appeal and pitfalls of the true crime genre.

8. Literary Tastes: Ghost Stories and Scares

• [13:39] With Halloween approaching, discussion turns to favorite scary books:
  • Prefers subtle, psychological horror or ghost stories over gore.
  • Praises The Turn of the Screw (Henry James) and The Haunting of Hill House (Shirley Jackson).
    • Advises to avoid "remakes" of The Haunting in favor of the original film adaptation.

9. The Ghost Debate

• [14:41] On believing in ghosts:
  • While skeptical, Klavan notes how common and convincing ghost stories are among people.
    • Quote: "I would have to see a transparent guy in chains saying 'repent' before I would actually believe. But I can't stop feeling like just so many people have seen them. There must be something to it." – Andrew Klavan ([15:01])

10. Dream Literary Dinner Party

• [15:13] Invites Shakespeare, John Keats, and Charles Dickens.
  • Quote: "There is no body of work that contains so much of the human spirit as William Shakespeare." – Andrew Klavan ([15:28])

11. Writing Advice

• [16:10] Klavan’s top tips for writers:
  • Elmore Leonard: "Wake up an hour earlier."
  • Raymond Chandler: Four hours daily dedicated to writing (even if not writing, not doing anything else).
    • Quote: "I just started spending four hours a day just sitting in front of what was then a typewriter and just not doing anything but writing." – Andrew Klavan ([16:36])
  • Urges young writers to learn grammar thoroughly.

12. The Book Every President Should Read

• [17:11] If Klavan could require the President to read a book, it would be A Christmas Carol by Charles Dickens.
  • He calls it "the gospel distilled into a story" and lauds its power in presenting the spiritual dimension of life.
  • Quote: "Everything else grows out of that question. Do you really believe that there is such a thing as a human spirit?... Dickens gives Scrooge really good arguments for being who he is. ... It's only a realization that there is a soul and that that soul is eternal ... that change[s] the way we look at material things." – Andrew Klavan ([18:01])

Memorable Quotes

• On masculinity and the modern antihero:
  "When you outlaw masculinity, only outlaws can be masculine." – Andrew Klavan ([04:27])

• On Christianity as a literary force:
  "I wanted Christianity to be a presence because I feel it's been written out of our lives." – Andrew Klavan ([08:42])

• On murder in fiction:
  "When you kill somebody, you not only cut off a work of God’s creation, you separate that work from all the people who love them." – Andrew Klavan ([11:22])

• On writing discipline:
  "Four hours a day just sitting in front of ... a typewriter and just not doing anything but writing. And that has been the best thing in the world for me." – Andrew Klavan ([16:36])

• On the enduring value of A Christmas Carol:
  “It's only a realization that there is a soul and that that soul is eternal and that the things that you do affect its passage into eternity that change the way we look at material things.” – Andrew Klavan ([18:09])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:48] – Books on Klavan’s nightstand
• [03:06] – Introduction to Cameron Winter character and series
• [06:12] – New novel: After That, the Dark (themes, plot, uniqueness)
• [07:54] – Christianity’s role in the series
• [09:17] – Kingdom of Cain and true crime in art
• [11:05] – Approach to crime, grief, and gore in fiction
• [13:39] – Favorite scary books/ghost stories
• [14:41] – Belief (or skepticism) in ghosts
• [15:13] – Literary dinner party choices
• [16:10] – Best writing advice received
• [17:11] – The one book every president should read

Engaging Moments and Host-Guest Dynamics

• Klavan’s humor and literary wit comes through, especially in his takes on French literature and his playful skepticism about ghosts.
• The discussion moves fluidly from technical aspects of the mystery genre into philosophical and meta-literary territory: faith, grief, evil, and the purpose of narrative fiction.
• The host, Georgia Howe, offers enthusiastic engagement, especially when discussing Halloween and the mystery niche, and provides an accessible entry point for listeners new to Klavan’s work.

Summary

Andrew Klavan’s interview on Morning Wire offers a deep dive into the art of mystery writing, the subtle integration of faith into fiction, and the intellectual grounding of his latest novel, After That, the Dark. The conversation balances craft advice with personal reflection, clear genre analysis, and a lively exchange about literary and cultural questions—making this episode rewarding for both mystery fans and broader literary audiences.