John Bickley (3:08)

Katie Foust is the founder and president of Them Before Us, a nonprofit fighting for children's rights. She's also a spokesman for the Greater Than Campaign. First of all, Katie, thank you so much for coming back on. It's been a while.

Katie Foust (3:20)

It's always good to be with you.

John Bickley (3:21)

So there are two issues which you're tracking on the front of children's rights. California is a great case study for both of these issues. Let's start with this Chinese surrogacy ring in California. There's a couple recently charged after being found with a shocking number of surrogate children in their home. What exactly happened in that case?

Katie Foust (3:41)

Well, last summer it was discovered that this Chinese couple had 21 children in their home, 15 of which were under the age of three. They were all procured through surrogacy arrangements. Part of the scandal was that Chinese couple was running the surrogacy agency through which they acquired those children. They just took all the kids home to their own place. It was discovered that all of these children were living in their multi million doll dollar mansion when one of the infants was taken to the hospital with signs of abuse. And that is what led investigators to their home where they discovered something happening with those children. We're still not exactly sure what.

John Bickley (4:17)

So do we know why this couple did this? Was there a financial incentive for amassing this many children?

Katie Foust (4:23)

Well, we actually don't know. We do know that there was a steady stream of visitors that was pulling up to the front of that Californian mansion several times a day. And there looked to be something like a reception desk right at the beginning. We have footage inside the home of show a lot of these little toddlers with shaved heads sitting at desks in front of nannies that would slap them, beat them, force them to sit for hours on their hands and knees. Obviously, this was not the kind of home where the Chinese couple simply wanted to have a large family, which is what they ended up telling investigators. It's very clear that there was something else going on rather than just family building here.

John Bickley (5:00)

Yeah, it seems to be the only conclusion. Now, legally speaking, in regard to the surrogacy laws in California, Was this couple actually breaking any laws on that front? Obviously, any abuse would clearly be laws broken there. But is it legal to have operations where you have surrogacy programs like this?

Katie Foust (5:18)

News items like this break out every now and then, and people clutch their pearls and say, oh, this is a case of surrogacy gone wrong. That's incorrect. This is surrogacy as designed. Surrogacy is designed to completely detach children from their genetic parents and assign them to any and every adult who has the money to acquire them. And so the technology exists for this very purpose. It does not have any kind of limiting principle in terms of to whom the children go or how many children are made. So the technology itself was operating as it was designed to operate. Further, if you're going to have 21 children that are mostly under the age of three, all being legally acquired by a couple in California, you need more than just modern technology. You need modern parenting laws. You need a way to legally sever children from their biological parents and reattach them to biological strangers without any kind of screening or vetting or background check. And that is what California has. It has the most permissive standards as it relates to surrogacy, and it has the most clearly defined roles as it relates to parentage laws that will allow unrelated adults to acquire them.

John Bickley (6:26)

Now, it's notable that this is a Chinese couple involved here. We recently had on Peter Schweitzer from the Government Accountability Institute. He brought up the China angle in the surrogacy issue as well. There's a specific correlation between Chinese clients involved in these contracts for surrogate children in California in particular. Can you speak to that?

Katie Foust (6:46)

Absolutely. My nonprofit, then before us, looks at this as a violation of the rights of the child. But you can look at this also from the angle of this is a national security threat. We have long known those of us that are watching surrogacy trends, especially in California, where they have the perfect alignment of modern technology and modern parentage laws that allow for people to procure these children in any way that they want. We've long known that foreign buyers were overwhelmingly Chinese and that about 40% of those Chinese buyers were single men over the age of 40. And then the Wall Street Journal just broke open this story in December about how a Chinese billionaire named Xu bu had acquired 100 children through Californian surrogates. US egg donors, right? He wanted a half white baby, but then he made the purchase through a Californian surrogate specifically because he wanted them to have U.S. citizenship. So now he's got hundreds of children being raised in a well funded nanny overseas, all of whom can claim alliance and citizenship to our country. And so thankfully, even though we've known a lot of these really disturbing trends for a long time in the world of big fertility, some of these very egregious specifics have helped people to take notice. Like my nonprofit then before us has been contacted by several federal representatives and senators asking like, what can be done here? And the answer is a hell of a lot. Most countries do not allow foreigners to come and buy their children through surrogacy. But because the world of big fertility here in the United States operates virtually regulation free, we are the fertility destination for all manner of people that want to procure unrelated children.

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John Bickley (8:57)

logic or the defense from California's perspective of their very lax approach to surrogacy and parenthood policies, that could kind of situation.

Katie Foust (9:06)

I haven't heard anything specifically from California officials on this case. Every time we move towards these more permissive parenthood statutes, it's always in the name of adult equality, adult autonomy, adult validation. This is actually a direct downstream effect of gay marriage. What happened when Obergefell was ruled on in 2015 was very clear. There could be no distinctions between same sex and opposite sex couples as it relates to marriage. But parenthood law is always connected to marriage law. So now that forced the law to accomplish what biology prohibits and that is making two adults of the same sex the parents of a child. That requires Eliminating male and female from parenthood, statutes that demands downgrading biology and creating other pathways outside of adoption so unrelated adults can have kids. So these statutes, these parenthood laws that hand over vulnerable infants to unrelated adults, not by biology, not because they've been vetted through adoption screening, simply through intent, is directly connected to the redefinition of marriage. And that is something that California has always been very proud of.

John Bickley (10:13)

And you're seeking to overturn this at the highest level. Do you think there's really any chance of actually accomplishing that in the near future?

Katie Foust (10:20)

Absolutely, there absolutely is. Obergefell victimized children, as we see this story, typifies the risk to children. This wasn't even a gay couple that was denying children their mother or father. It creates the legal framework so any adult can acquire as many children as they want, however they want, in whatever way they want, when they want them. That is the necessary result of Obergefell, the commodification of children. It by necessity strips children of their right to be known and loved by their mother and father, which makes them objects to be accomplished, acquired. And so we are greater than coalition. You can go to GreaterThancampaign.com we, along with about 50 other organizations and different personalities, including Megan Basham and Michael Knowles over at the Daily Wire, are serious about making sure that people understand the way children have been victimized through the redefinition of marriage. We're going to take it back on the grounds that justice for children demands it.

John Bickley (11:18)

So we've been talking specifically about California so far. Are there other states that model more responsible surrogacy laws?

Katie Foust (11:25)

Very, very few. The last ban on surrogacy was struck down just last year. Again, much of this is driven in the name of adult equality, when the reality is rejecting surrogacy is simply protecting children from commodification. There's no surrogacy law anywhere that requires that the adults that are taking them home undergo background checks and screening. I'm the former assistant director of the largest Chinese adoption agency in the world. What happens in the world of Big Fertility is the direct inverse of adoption. Adoption is about the best interest of the child. Big Fertility is a marketplace centered around the desires of adults. So, no, there isn't any state that is specifically enshrined the best interest of the children as it relates to Big Fertility and commercial surrogacy. Because the two are directly in competition, they cannot coexist. So we do fight commercial surrogacy laws around the country at my nonprofit them before US but there's very little that can be done, especially as it relates to big tech and big fertility, when you've got all of the government laws reorienting themselves away from recognizing children's fundamental claim to their mother and father and downgrading the importance of that biological connection in the name of adult validation.

John Bickley (12:36)

Well, I find it personally shocking that there are no background check requirements, et cetera, when we see intense vetting processes for adoption. You're obviously deep into the adoption arena as well. What should we make of the stark contrasts in the approach to surrogacy versus adoption?

Katie Foust (12:53)

Well, the law is going to have to figure out how to align itself. Right now, it's completely schizophrenic. An unrelated adult who wants to take a vulnerable infant home from the hospital through adoption. Like me and like a lot of the people that are listening to this program right now, they couldn't simply walk into the adoption agency and say, here's some money. I intend to parent this child. Give me a baby. Adoption agencies know that that is fundamentally risky to children because unrelated adults, adults always increase risk of abuse and neglect. That's why adoptive parents undergo screening, vetting, background checks, fingerprints, home studies, references, financial records, medical records, post placement report and training. And yet unrelated adults are able to walk out of the hospital with a baby that they're not genetically related to with no background checks if they can assemble them through reproductive technologies and acquire the sperm, egg and womb and have a valid contract. So this is a problem for the law. They're going to have to rectify it and reconcile it somehow. I worry because the narrative, the thrust, the money, the power is not on the side of the children. It is on the side of big fertility. And those that want to overhaul and redefine the definition of the family, a

John Bickley (14:06)

very complex issue that, as you've highlighted, has reached a point now that more people are calling for serious reform. Katie, thank you so much for coming on.

Katie Foust (14:14)

It's important for us to think about it. The very real lives of children are at stake.

John Bickley (14:18)

That was Katie Foust, president of Them before us and spokesman for the Greater Than Campaign. And this has been a weekend edition of MORNING wire. Hey, Sal. Hank, what's going on? We haven't worked a case in years. I just bought my car at Carvana

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