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A
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And we're live on Matchday. As Doug reaches for a buffalo wing. He's got it. Oh, and he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. What a finish. There's no doubt about it. It just tastes better. Match Days deserve Pepsi.
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D
A few recent big tent box office successes like Project Hail Mary, Super Mario Galaxy and Toy Story 5 that have largely avoided political messaging have led to declarations. Woke is dead in Hollywood. But insiders say not so fast. There's still a powerful coalition of industry folks pushing left wing agendas in TV and film productions.
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C
In this episode, we sit down with conservative film critic Christian Toto to discuss the role of ideology and politics now in Tinseltown and which direction's revenues are driving the industry. I'm Daily Wire executive editor John Bickley with Georgia Howe. This is a weekend edition of Morning Wire. Joining us now is film critic and founder of Hollywood in Toto, Christian Toto. Christian, great to have you on.
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B
Good to be here.
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C
So I think there's been a lot of premature pronouncements that woke is dead in Hollywood. You know, we had one really good movie come out a few months ago, Project Hail Mary. And then suddenly Woke is dead. You're arguing maybe that's not the case. And you actually wrote for the Daily Wire a piece recently detailing the evidence that this is not true, unfortunately. Is woke still making its presence felt in Hollywood productions?
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B
Well, just a little context, you know, we have seen some promising signs. You look at comedy coming back. Comedy roasts are now on Netflix. Some canceled comedians are now entertaining the country without any sort of punishment. So I think there was some real evidence that woke was on the decline, and I still think it is. But we're also seeing other signs that it's not exactly going away for good. And a lot of woke. You know, I think the term is often either misapplied or maybe expanded too broadly, but it's often forcing Identity politics into stories where it may not belong. We're just really lecturing the audience. And I think maybe that one of the best examples is a movie called Ladies first, starring Sacha Baron Cohen of Borat fame. And he plays this chauvinistic kind of guy who gets a bump in the head and he wakes up and he's not living in the patriarchy, he's living in the matriarchy. I think that's just one extreme example of where we're going here.
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C
Yeah, probably not tuning in for that. Ladies First. What would you say is the difference now in Hollywood from five years ago? You know, there's been a lot of changes. Covid obviously really disruptive to the industry. How has the industry changed so much
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B
in just a short amount of time? I mean, the threat of AI is maybe the biggest issue, but we're seeing a lot of conflict on the streaming front. You know, they've been pouring millions into new content, and the numbers just aren't there. You have a lot of people who will subscribe and then quit. They call it the churn. And that's a problem for these streaming giants. And there's just not enough eyeballs sometimes and too much overhead. So I think that's an issue as well. But from the woke perspective, I think what you've seen is Hollywood was really bending over backwards to be more inclusive, to right the wrongs that were committed years and years ago. And it really was reflected in the content. And no more so than with Disney, which obviously had a lot of woke content, but they've been really dialing it back in an aggressive way. I think that's the most obvious example of the change in Hollywood.
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C
All right, so at least an attempt to kind of hide some of this. It seems like the revelations, the leaks about higher ups and Disney openly having a queer agenda, et cetera, that does seem to have an effect so far on some of these decisions they're making. As for the financial part of this, you know, there was a lot of hope in revenues from streaming, like you said. Some of that's been very disappointing for a lot of these studios. The theaters keep coming back into focus. Just the necessity to bring in big box office revenues. We mentioned Project Hail Mary at the top, a huge box office success for Amazon. Is that motivation for a more, you know, big tent approach to content than ever now with some of the hopes of streaming revenues being down?
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B
Yeah, I think for years, Hollywood could get away with a lot, could suffer through a bomb or two or three or 10, because they wanted that messaging out there and they had other hits that were gonna make up the difference. And now we're not seeing that the theatrical model is a little wobblier than it ever was. But we are seeing some promising signs. You mentioned Pro. The Super Mario Galaxy movie has been a huge hit. And I think that Hollywood in general has cracked the code on video game movies and that's a lifesaver, especially as superhero films kind of crater as far as the box office is concerned. So yeah, I think they could get away with more in the past and not so much now. Even looking at the small screen with Stephen Colbert, the Late show was reportedly losing millions and millions and they kept it on the air indefinitely. But now numbers are tighter. They're crunching the numbers more and more and all of a sudden Late show loss is unsustainable.
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C
Yeah, for sure. And in fact, the Late show scene, have you seen any changes in that particular branch of the industry? You know, you talked about the comedians in general. We're starting to see this return of not politically correct comedians. Is there any prospect of the late night scene opening up at all or is that industry just going away?
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B
Well, I think the late night format may be just dying on its own accord. It's just not the way we process entertainment. Now we're on YouTube because social media, you know, the immediacy of late night doesn't really click. Having said that, I think it's sort of a. There have been so many self inflicted wounds. I mean, listen, Jimmy Kimmel famously said about his right leaning fans, not good riddance, but riddance. And then he more recently talked about, hey, don't lecture me about trying to be funnier. It's my job to say what I want to say. And if I want to be serious and sober and cry, I'm going to do it. So, you know, you take all these different factors, you think, oh, of course late night can't survive. And having said that, there's Gutfeld on Fox News. And also Jimmy Fail is doing a nice job at Fox News Saturday night. And they're less overtly political. Fela in particular is more inclusive and sort of more like, hey, let's have a show, let's have some laughs and let's not take ourselves seriously. I think if there was more of that in late night tv, they'd have a better chance. But it might just be a dying formula.
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D
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C
Have you seen opportunities opening up for new formats or, you know, new content focuses? There's been some successful faith focused films, for example. Is that a legitimate new horizon that can be explored?
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B
Yeah, I mean, I think there's different ways to get the message out there. And you know, listen, Stephen Colbert will go away, but he could pop up on a podcast or a video, a YouTube channel and be just fine. So I think the technology is there on multiple levels. You don't have to, you know, if you've got a new movie, you can just put up a website. You can go through a streaming process. There are different distributors now that will work with indie filmmakers, so that's certainly part of what we're looking at here. And Faith Based is having a moment right now. The chosen House of David Jesus Revolution. You know, there's been a lot of different projects on small and big screens and also some big players getting involved too, where it's not just unknown actors and Kirk Cameron leading the way. You've got major players in these films and of course Mel Gibson returns very soon, I guess next year with the, the passion of the sequels. So that's going to be a game changer as well.
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C
Yeah, indeed. And some of these faith focused films you mentioned, you know, they've created their own websites, even platforms, gained an audience and then got into theaters. That's something we've never seen before. Really. Is that a new model or is it still in its kind of test phases?
- [10:03]
B
Yeah, I think it's still in its infancy, but the potential is huge. There is a newer film called Busboys. It's an indie comedy. Theo Vaughn, David Spade, independently produced, no studio attached. They sunk some of their money into it and listen, it hasn't been a box office success, but the budget is so small, a little over 3 million, that it's not going to take much for them to get their money back. And so if more and more artists are doing that, kind of bypassing the gatekeepers, going their own way, keeping the costs low, then they could make stuff for an audience that will cheer them on. And again, it could be a niche audience. But who cares if you're paying the rent, you got a story to tell, then you got a full, you know, all steam ahead there.
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C
So it works out, you know, holistically. It looks like independent filmmakers are poised to have more success than they've had in the past, particularly because Hollywood keeps, you know, shooting itself in the foot with the expense of producing films in California, then you have the unions causing a lot of trouble. We've seen that here at the Daily Wire with one of our own productions recently. Are you seeing evidence of that, that there is more room for independent filmmaking success?
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B
You know, I think there's more independent filmmakers and there are more films out there, but success is a little dicier. You know, it's. Even when the costs are low, just getting your product out there is very hard. The marketplace is flooded with films and just kind of raising your hand and saying, hey, I'm here is a challenge. As a film critic, I get, you know, dozens of emails a week, if not more for these smaller films, trying to get my attention just because I might review the film and it might be on my site or it might be elsewhere. So they're just desperate for that kind of attention. And because, you know, it's almost like podcasting. Where isn't it great everyone could be a podcaster now. Oh my gosh, how do you cut through the maze and make yourself known? So it's both a blessing and a curse.
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C
Now on the topic of politicized content, there's a major series coming out from Apple that was actually put on hold because of the assassination of Charlie Kirk. This is the savant. I know you've looked at this series. What's the backstory there? And is this another, you know, hyper politicized series or not?
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B
I think the media circus around the story is probably more intense than the show itself. It is loosely based on a true person who has been infiltrating hate groups in order to expose them and bring them to light and of course shut them down. Jessica Chastain, the Oscar winner, is a star here. So it's got some good star power. It's credibly orchestrated, but it really is one sided because as we've seen in the culture for the last few years, there is a lot of hate coming from the left. And this is a show that's exclusively looking at right leaning bigots far right. You could guess, you could say that more, more succinctly. So I think the timing is a bit odd, but it's what Hollywood does. It ignores certain topics and doubles down in others. So. And as far as the cancellation and the sort of the putting it on the bench for a while, it didn't seem to make a lot of sense. I watched the first few episodes. I didn't see anything specific to the Charlie Kirk storyline, the horrible assassination. I think that oftentimes Hollywood risk averse to the nth degree and they just thought they'd want to kind of take a knee on this for a bit. They did. It'll come out. I think it's not going to make a big stir once people actually see it.
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C
Is there anything that you feel should be on our radar that's coming out this year that actually might be significant, that might shape the direction of the industry at all? What should we watch out for?
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B
Christopher Nolan, director behind so many great films, including Oppenheimer. He has a movie, the Odyssey, that's coming out this summer. You think about a story like that based on classic works. It doesn't seem like box office catnip, but Christopher Nolan is a unique creature in Hollywood where almost anything he does gets our attention and draws a lot of box office potential. So looking forward to that. And also Avengers Doomsday. This is Disney, the mcu Literally throwing everything they have to revive the superhero genre. Big budget, big stars, big everything. Can it do the trick? Will it make us fall back in love with superhero films? I am skeptical for sure, but this is a last gasp attempt to do just that. Or will video games be the next blockbuster phase and superhero films fade to black? We'll see.
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C
How about for people looking for conservative content, or at least content that's not overtly insulting to their worldview? Do you have any recommendations? Maybe even studios other than the Daily Wire, of course, that are under the radar that you recommend?
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B
You know, it's tough to find right leaning stories that appeal to the heartland, but I have to say, if you're ever, you know, really questioning that or thinking about that, just look at Taylor Sheridan. You know, he's not an openly conservative fellow. He is the showrunner behind so many shows including Yellowstone. And he's got content on Paramount like Landman, like Yellowstone and others as well, Tulsa King that are either not woke or not left leaning. And occasionally you get a right leaning moment or a little jab or a little storyline that speaks to an audience that often gets ignored. Landman is probably a perfect example in part because it's just good. Billy Bob Thornton plays essentially a fixer in the oil and gas industry who just gets things done. But the storylines really reflect people and places and subject matters that get ignored by Hollywood in general. And he's having tremendous success. Almost every show he puts out is a hit and so just go to Paramount. Now he has signed a contract to move from Paramount plus down the short road. But for now, a lot of his shows are right there.
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C
And it is really notable that he has so much control of what he creates. There's a sense of independence there, which is obviously a key part of his success. Christian, thank you so much for talking with us.
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B
Thanks. My pleasure.
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D
That was Christian Toto, host of Hollywood in Toto. And this has been a weekend episode of Morning Wire.
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