Morning Wire – “Lions & Scavengers: Ben Shapiro’s Warning to the West”

Podcast: Morning Wire
Date: September 6, 2025
Hosts: John Bickley & Georgia Howe
Guest: Ben Shapiro, Daily Wire Co-founder, author of "Lions and the True Story of America and Her Critics"

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode centers on the themes and arguments in Ben Shapiro’s new book, "Lions and the True Story of America and Her Critics." Through a personal and philosophical lens, Shapiro discusses the internal and civilizational struggle between builders (“lions”) and destroyers (“scavengers”) in Western society. The episode unpacks how this struggle manifests after critical events (like the October 7 Middle East attacks), explores the roots of anti-Western sentiment, and investigates what it means to build, protect, or tear down the fabric of civilization.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of the Book: Personal and Philosophical Crisis

• Ben describes the book’s origin as more personal and emotionally charged than his previous works.
  • Quote: “I started journaling essentially a few years ago because I realized I was doing some kind of interesting things that I might want to think about later... After I visited... Oxford University to debate about the October 7 attacks...I started to write this essay about just the insanity that I was witnessing.” ([03:08])
• The pivotal moment was witnessing rage and anti-Western sentiment in Oxford’s debate halls after the October 7 Middle East attacks.
  • Quote: “You could feel kind of the seething rage in the room. And I thought to myself, this is crazy, because all I'm doing is saying that Israel is right to defend itself...And the comeback that I'm getting is the west is awful, America's awful, Israel's awful. Terrorism is probably justified.” ([04:03])

2. Lions vs. Scavengers: The Central Metaphor

• Lions: People committed to building, protecting, and handing down civilization (builders, warriors, weavers).

• Scavengers: Those aiming to tear down the foundations due to resentment towards the systems that exist (barbarians, looters, lechers).

  • Quote: “This book is a lot more about what it's like to kind of wander through a world where the scavengers feel like they have the upper hand...They come in a wide variety of types...But what brings them together is that root desire to destroy rather than to build.” ([05:27])

• Internal Struggle:

  • Everyone is susceptible to becoming a “scavenger”—it’s not just an “us and them” paradigm but an ongoing daily choice.
  • Quote: “I don't think people are just born a lion or born a scavenger. I think that that's an ongoing battle that we're all fighting pretty much every single day.” ([06:29])
  • Georgia Howe: “I found that really compelling that you talked about that. This is an internal battle. It isn't like a us and them. The other is the scavenger. It's not that. We all have the potential to be scavengers.” ([06:34])

3. How Scavenger Mentality Manifests

• Strange Alliances: Formerly opposed groups join forces to tear down the West, seen in protests where progressive groups align with regressive causes (e.g., Queers for Palestine).

  • Quote: “You have people in a parade marching with a trans flag in one hand and a Hamas flag in the other. And you're thinking, this is insane...But here you are marching with the Hamas flag and also with the Pride Progress flag. And the answer is, because it's not about whether Hamas agrees with Pride Progress. It's about whether both of them agree that the west needs to be destroyed.” ([08:26–09:18])

• Academic Hostility to the Center:

  • Quote: “There was a real resentment for what they termed the center...The idea was, you know, look, we need to feature the voices...of the fringes. But if you...follow this logically, what you mean is you want to tear apart the center. You don't want to get into the center. You want to actually permanently focus on the fringes, and that means devouring the center.” ([09:58])

4. The “Lion” Philosophy and Its Virtues

• Core Motif:

  • Duties owed to oneself, to others, and to the civilization.
  • The importance of building (“hunters,” “weavers,” “warriors”) and the subtleties of maintaining civilization—especially through innovation, protection, and social fabric (e.g., family, community).
  • Quote: “You get up in the morning, you think, how do I build? ... The warriors...are actually defending against the people who would destroy your civilization...The weavers...the most underappreciated portion of our society...their job is to build. It's all of our job to build social fabric.” ([11:00–12:25])

• Meritocracy as a Rebuke to Scavenger Ideology

  • Quote: “And again, if you go back to the scavengers, the goal...is to tear apart that entire system, because that system creates a meritocracy. And meritocracies are the thing that scavengers hate the most...The meritocracy says the meritorious get ahead, and they look at that and they have a reverse logic. If you got ahead, it's not because you're meritorious. It's because you're an exploiter and an oppressor.” ([12:54])

5. Fragility of Civilization and Internal Vigilance

• Importance of gratitude and healthy criticism over nihilism:

  • Quote: “I think gratitude, respect for the systems that we've been handed, an acknowledgement that those systems pre-existed us...We have to pass it on to somebody in the future...The inroad that is possible for scavengers is the difference between healthy criticism and a belief that the entire system needs to be abolished and destroyed.” ([14:39])

• Dangers of bad faith debate and intellectual inconsistency:

  • Quote: “Bad faith debates are ones where you shift your tactics in order to score a point without actually attempting to get to the root of the conflict or being honest about what it is that you want. There's really no way to debate that particular position.” ([16:36–17:13])

6. Role of Storytelling and the Cultural Thread

• Telling True Stories:
  • The left's effectiveness with narrative and mythmaking; need for the right to tell its own inspiring and true stories rather than purely intellectual arguments.
  • Quote: “There are a lot of quotations from famous novels and poetry...I was also trying to evoke certain emotions...when you say that's what a lion looks like, sometimes it has more of an impact than spelling out all the principles and philosophies.” ([19:02–20:02])

7. Daily Wire’s Origin as an Example of Lion Mentality

• Entrepreneurial failure and resilience:
  • Quote: “It is an illustration of how the lion mentality works…We failed. We could have complained about the system, which I'm sure we did. But then the question is, what do you do next? Do you try again? Do you believe in the idea enough? Are you willing to go to bat and take those risks?” ([21:03–21:58])
  • Describes the simple, hand-drawn business plan that ultimately became the basis of Daily Wire’s success. ([21:15–23:50])

8. Hope for the Future Amidst Struggle

• Recent trends as “green shoots” for those aligned with the “lion” ideal:
  • Quote: “There are a lot of green shoots. I mean, I think that the reelection of President Trump is a big one...President Trump...is responsible to reality...his reelect, I think, was an attempt by the American people to say, let's get back to something that resembles normalcy. Please, let's just get back to normalcy.” ([24:07])
  • But: “...it has to be maintained, as Ronald Reagan said, every generation, or you lose it.” ([24:59])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Attention lies at the core of our being...That tension lies between...the spirit of the lion, [and] the spirit of the scavenger.” – Ben Shapiro ([00:25])
• “The comeback that I'm getting is the west is awful, America's awful, Israel's awful. Terrorism is probably justified...” – Ben Shapiro ([04:03])
• “If you got ahead, it's not because you're meritorious. It's because you're an exploiter and an oppressor. And so the entire system is guilty.” – Ben Shapiro ([12:54])
• “The only way to fight back against that is to actually look into motivation, which is a thing that again, I don't actually like to do...” – Ben Shapiro ([14:39])
• “You started off in a place of shock and anger. Over the last few years, do you feel like you've seen signs that give you more hope, less hope?” – Georgia Howe ([23:53])
• “As Ronald Reagan said, every generation, or you lose it.” – Ben Shapiro ([24:59])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Book’s origin and Oxford debate story: [03:08] – [05:24]
• Defining Lions & Scavengers: [05:24] – [07:29]
• Alliance of unlikely activist groups: [07:41] – [09:18]
• Resentment at the ‘center’ and implications: [09:58] – [11:00]
• Description of Lion virtues (hunters, weavers, warriors): [11:00] – [12:54]
• Meritocracy vs. scavenger critique: [12:54] – [13:56]
• Guarding against nihilism and healthy criticism: [14:39] – [16:30]
• Limits of debate with bad faith actors: [16:30] – [17:35]
• The necessity of nuanced, honest arguments in books: [17:35] – [18:25]
• Role of storytelling; fusing Western thought traditions: [19:02] – [20:31]
• Daily Wire founding as a failure-turned-success story: [21:03] – [23:53]
• Signs of hope and call for generational vigilance: [24:07] – [24:59]

Tone & Style

The conversation balances passionate conviction with reflective analysis. Shapiro, usually reserved with personal feelings, infuses this episode (and his book) with direct emotional responses—frustration, resolve, and hope for the civilization he seeks to defend. The hosts maintain an approachable, earnest tone, prompting detailed exploration and personal anecdotes, and emphasizing engagement with both intellect and heart.

For listeners:
This episode offers a robust understanding of the ideological and cultural struggles Ben Shapiro views as pivotal for the West, explained via candid interviews, personal stories, and crisp metaphors. It challenges the audience to consider their role as “lions” or “scavengers,” and to recognize the daily battle—both internal and collective—to preserve a flourishing civilization.