Georgia Howe (3:20)

Olivia, thank you so much for coming on.

Olivia Morrill (3:23)

No, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Georgia Howe (3:26)

Now, I understand you are advocating to end surrogacy. Could you give us a little bit of background about your story and how you got into this?

Olivia Morrill (3:36)

Sure. I actually like to say that I am a pure product of surrogacy. I was planned, I was contracted, and I was delivered. So I was born through surrogacy in 1991 in Louisville, Kentucky. So 34 years ago now. And actually, I grew up not knowing my origins, not knowing where I came from. At the age of 17, I started making research on Internet about the city where I was born in America. And I fell on surrogacy agencies. And that's how I kind of found out that I was bor of surrogacy. And today I speak as the spokesperson of the Casablanca decoration that fights for the universal abolition of surrogacy. And they came and found me. They came and found me. And now it's. It's my work. It started as a feeling. I grew up. I knew something didn't fit. And even if I couldn't really explain it, and I have to say, I wasn't separated by my mother by tragedy, like an Adoption. I was separated by her by design. And once you see that clearly, you can't unsee it. So I'm not just someone that's born through surrogacy. I'm its outcome, I'm its product. I was created through a process where a woman's body was used and a child, that's me, was expected to be handed over at birth. And today I speak not only as someone who was born through it, but also as a mother. And I cannot accept a system that treats women as reproductive vessels for the rich and children as outcomes that are to be delivered to those who can afford it. So that's why I reject not from ideology, but from lived reality.

Georgia Howe (5:09)

Now, when you say you didn't know where you came from, some people, when they do surrogacy, they use their own genetic material and they implant that into a third party. Were you not raised by your biological parents? What was your situation?

Olivia Morrill (5:22)

I was not raised by my biological mother, but I was raised by my biological father. In gestational surrogacy. Sometimes the egg and the sperm of the commissioning parents are used to create the child. But you have to understand that even in gestational surrogacy, that child is going to bond with his mother inside the womb. He's going to want her at birth, and that's the only person he's going to want at birth. Her smell, her voice, her milk, everything. She's the one that he was living in for nine months. And that separation is what causes the trauma of abandonment, the primal wound, as we call it an adoption.

Georgia Howe (6:00)

Now, how does the process work with surrogacy? You talked about how it's basically a bought and sold baby. How does that industry work?

Olivia Morrill (6:09)

Well, very simply, you've got a couple, a commissioning couple, or a single parent can actually go through surrogacy. A single father, single mother can buy themselves a child. They go to an agency, they put a check on the table, and they go through a catalog of women that are to become the surrogate. And so they can choose her based on her physical appearance if she went and did studies. They can also choose the egg or the sperm if they need. Once that's done, the fertility clinic is going to the embryo in a lab and then insert the embryo into the surrogate mother. Meanwhile, they're going to insert one embryo or more, if you're in other countries than America. And all the other embryos that have been created are either going to be put into the trash, if I can say, or they're going to be frozen for other surrogies to come. So the surrogate mother is going to have to follow a lot of rules that are very well listed in the contract between herself, the surrogacy agency and the commissioning parents. And once the whole process is over, once she gives birth to the baby, she has to hand over the child to the commissioning parents immediately.

Georgia Howe (7:23)

Does the surrogate mother have any rights if she begins to have an attachment with the baby or does not want to hand over the baby? I mean, I think a woman who's not pregnant at the beginning of the process may not really have a theory of mind of what it's going to be like nine months later after she's carried this child. Does the woman have a right at the end of it to say, no, I want to keep my child?

Olivia Morrill (7:50)

No. That's one of the clauses is she signs over and she waives over her rights on the child. So she cannot at some point in the process say, well, you know, I want to keep the baby. She can't, she's bound to the contract.

Georgia Howe (8:05)

Are there currently any laws on the books regulating this or trying to rein it in in any country? I mean, are there certain exemplar countries out there that you think have a more ethical standard or is this just the wild west in most of the world?

Olivia Morrill (8:19)

It's the wild west in most of the world. I mean, take the United Kingdom or Canada where they allow what's called altruistic surrogacy. So in theory there's no profit, so there's no money handed over directly to the surrogate. But in reality there's always payments, expenses, compens, indirect financial support. And then you look at places like the Ukraine or the US where you have highly structured contract based systems. That doesn't eliminate the ethical problem, sorry, it just professionalizes it. And so globally, what we see is cross border surrogacy. People go where the rules are looser. Like in Mexico for example, where you have poor women becoming surrogates and being exploited and they're not worth a lot. So regulation in one country doesn't solve the issue, it just exports it. And this is not marginal, it's rapidly growing. We're talking about a global industry projected to reach around $200 billion by 2035. Beyond all of that, the very core problem always remains the same and it's unchanged everywhere. A woman is going to carry a child and is expected to give that child away at birth. So you can regulate money, you can regulate contracts, you can regulate agenc, but you cannot regulate that separation at birth. And that's really the key point. Some practices cannot be made ethical through regulation because the problem is how they are organized. It's what they are.

Georgia Howe (9:52)

Now, you said you had good parents. Where were you raised? And when were you transferred from your birth mother to your current parents? Tell us about how that worked with your family from the very beginning.

Olivia Morrill (10:04)

My commissioning mother is French and my father is Swiss. And my mother was 50 years old when she decided to have a child, and so she couldn't. And my father was 49 years old. And so they decided to go to the United States and Louisville to find a surrogate. They had me in Louisville, Kentucky. I was handed over directly to my commissioning parents, who I did not know.

Georgia Howe (10:27)

Now, tell us about. You said very early you knew something wasn't right. What did that feeling feel like? Cause it sounds like you had an otherwise nice home life.

Olivia Morrill (10:38)

Yeah, I had a very nice home life. I didn't have any issues from the outside, but from the inside, I was going crazy. I was going crazy at a very, very young age because I had this sense that I didn't belong. I didn't belong in this family. I didn't look like my mother. She looked a lot older than all my friends, moms that were at school. And we shared nothing in common. And there was this emotional disconnection that we had between she and. She tried her best. I really, I don't blame my parents at all. I love them to death. Even though we don't talk to each other today because of my position on surrogacy. But my genes were speaking, I'm American. And that just continued until I was in my adolescent years where that feeling got even deeper. I kept trying to fill this void inside of me.

Georgia Howe (11:36)

Were they transparent, your parents, from the beginning about where you came from?

Olivia Morrill (11:41)

No, they weren't. They had the perfect life and they didn't want to break it. And once again, I don't blame them. I do, however, speak to other children born through surrogacy that have known from the very, very beginning. And the story doesn't change now.

Georgia Howe (11:57)

When did you get in touch with your biological mother and what unfolded there?

Olivia Morrill (12:01)

I got in touch with my biological mother, so my surrogate when I was 30 years old. So my mother in law saw me struggle so badly with depression, anxiety. So she, at 30 years old, gifted me this DNA test and it came back and I was matched on the platform with a cousin of mine. And then one day I had a message that popped up on Facebook messenger And it was my surrogate mother. And we exchanged on there. So she explained very clearly that when I was born, I tilted my little head towards her. And that just goes to show that, you know, as a baby, even as a newborn, you know where to look, who to look for, you know, that you're looking for your mother. And so got to meet my half brother. It was one of the most beautiful days of my life. Of course, the birth of my children were the most beautiful days of my life. But I have to say it was one of the most emotional moments ever. I finally saw someone that looked like me, that belonged, that we, that, I mean, that really we shared so much similarities in the way we look, in the way we talk and the way we walked. I mean, it was fantastic. And yeah, and then I did have this conversation with my surrogate mother in which she answers all the questions that I had. Who am I? Where do I come from? Who are my grandparents? What is she like? So she answered really all the questions that I had to try to rebuild myself and to regain my identity.

Georgia Howe (13:36)

Do you now have a relationship with her?

Olivia Morrill (13:39)

No, I don't. I don't have a relationship with her. She's. She has her own issues. She's struggling on her side. I, I think about her a lot. But no, we don't have a relationship. And I wasn't seeking a mother. I was just seeking answers. I guess I, I didn't even go and talk. I didn't want to bother her because I thought, you know, she kept the other children and she didn't keep me. So I guess she didn't want to talk to me. But it was a huge present to have all these questions answered.

Georgia Howe (14:09)

Now, what does the research say about how kids who were born through surrogacy proceed through life? Is it common to have these kind of psychological challenges?

Olivia Morrill (14:22)

So there was one study that was done and that the pro surrogacy lobby uses a lot and it's called the Gullembok study. I mean, it's not a very good study to be honest, but I hope everyone reads it because you can really see how it doesn't make any sense. And other than that, there is no study on surrogate borne children. However, we do have studied children that are adopted. Adoption, we try and repair the situation of a child that was caused by life. And in surrogacy, we program the abandonment of the child. So it's two very, very different things. But we do have one common ground. And that common ground is the fact that we were all separated from our mothers at birth. And we know that adoption can absolutely involve deep questions about identity and loss. And we know that, and we have to take it seriously. And studies show that adoptees face significantly higher risks of depression and even suicide attempts. So that just tells us something very, very important, that separation at the beginning of life matters.

Georgia Howe (15:27)

Have you seen, in the time that you've been doing advocacy, any hopeful signs that this issue is being at least considered and maybe there could be some movement towards tighter regulation?

Olivia Morrill (15:40)

Yes, I've been at this for two and a half years now. I have seen huge progress and such great things happening In Italy. We've seen a great ban on surrogacy. And I mean, of course it's banned within the country, but Italy has banned its citizens from going abroad and coming back with a child. So that was amazing. I was sent to Slovakia, actually, to do some lobbying and talk to some members of parliament to pass a ban on surrogacy in their constitution. And they did it. So we can be very proud. Chile is currently passing a law to ban surrogacy, Ecuador as well. So we're seeing a shift. And in the us, I believe you are now speaking about stopping Chinese citizens from coming to America and buying themselves a child and having the US passport. And we've also seen this wonderful UN report from the Special Rapporteur on violence against women and girls, Reem Al Salem, who recently just did her report on surrogacy, and she calls for the universal abolition as well. So we are seeing great, great changes, and it's only the beginning.

Georgia Howe (16:46)

Now, what about situations where a couple really would love to have a child the biological way, but there are various barriers and they can't. What would you say to those parents?

Olivia Morrill (16:56)

That I understand their desire deeply. I'm a mother myself. I'm a mother of three, but I wasn't supposed to have children because I have severe endometriosis. I mean, I have three miracles at home. So I understand that desire deeply. But you have to understand that a desire, even a very real and very painful one, doesn't create a right to a child. I always say there is no international law to a child. But children have rights, and we cannot allow this, especially if it involves using another woman's body and organizing the separation of a child at birth. So we have to distinguish between empathy for adults and the protection of children. And, of course, the desire is human. Once again, it does not create a right to a child.

Georgia Howe (17:46)

I'm sorry you went through this, but I really appreciate everything you're doing.

Olivia Morrill (17:50)

And thank you for having me here. Really, it's an honor.

Narrator (17:53)

That was anti surrogacy activist Olivia Morrill, and this has been a Weekend edition of Morningwire.