Morning Wire: "Truths and Myths from the Vatican Files with Michael Knowles"

Date: August 17, 2025
Hosts: John Bickley and Georgia Howe
Guest: Michael Knowles (Daily Wire, host of the documentary series The Pope and the Secret Vatican Files of World War II)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the controversy surrounding Pope Pius XII, often dubbed the "Silent Pope" for his perceived lack of action during World War II. Michael Knowles joins the hosts to discuss his new documentary series, which leverages newly opened Vatican archives to shed light on the true role of Pius XII and debunk longstanding myths. The conversation explores the historical nuances, the complexity of the era, and offers a thoughtful, sometimes provocative, reassessment of the Pope’s actions during one of history’s darkest chapters.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Setting the Historical Stage

• Pope Pius XII’s Reputation:
  • Pius XII is one of the most maligned figures of the 20th century, accused by some of being complicit or even supportive of Hitler (“Hitler’s Pope”).
  • Knowles argues that public perception has been driven by propaganda and a lack of understanding of the actual historical context.

“One of the worst lies ever told about the Catholic Church is what she did or did not do in one of modernity's darkest hours.”
—Michael Knowles [01:09]

• New Access to Vatican Archives:
  • The Vatican’s secret (now "Apostolic") archive is newly available, giving historians unprecedented insight into the Church's wartime activity, allowing for a "definitive history."

2. Debunking Myths: What Did and Did Not Happen

Accusations Against Pius XII

• Alleged Silence and Support:
  • Critics say Pius XII was passive, failing to denounce Hitler daily or act forcefully.
  • Knowles contextualizes: the Pope no longer had temporal power; diplomatic action was often the only tool.

“The argument is that he didn't get up and give a daily speech every day on the evils of Adolf Hitler…”
—Michael Knowles [04:16]

Actions Taken

• Diplomatic and Covert Efforts:
  • Early encyclicals (e.g., Mit Brennender Sorge) directly challenged Nazi ideology and were distributed in German to reach the public.
  • Pius XII, both as diplomat and Pope, worked quietly to save Jews—especially in Rome, where he reportedly prevented mass deportations.
  • The Vatican facilitated networks that assisted escapes and disseminated intelligence.

“He helped many, many Jews and others to escape the atrocities. But a lot of his work was, in fact, in silence.”
—Michael Knowles [03:13]

The Risk of Speaking Out

• Balancing Moral Leadership and Flock Safety:
  • Open denunciations could endanger Catholics in Nazi-held territories.
  • Internal Church divisions existed, with some bishops (e.g., Bishop Hudal) adopting misguided strategies but still condemning Nazi racial policies.

“He also had to deal with clergy and even bishops who were a little more open to the Nazi regime.”
—Michael Knowles [08:00]

3. Confronting Perception, Propaganda, and Complexity

Hitler and the Church

• Adversarial Relationship:
  • Vatican documents show Hitler saw Pius XII as a chief adversary.
  • Hitler’s ideology was fundamentally antagonistic to Christianity; he tried to subordinate religion to the state via "positive Christianity."

“Hitler was right when he said that the Pope was his enemy… the chief threat to his power, to his Reich was the Church.”
—Michael Knowles [09:43]

Christian Nationalism vs. Nazism

• Knowles’s View:
  • Patriotism and cultural affinity aren't wrong; making the state or nation an idol is.
  • Nazism distorted nationalism into an ideology that excluded higher spiritual ends.

“The difference, though, is that Christian nationalism... puts nation in its proper place. And its proper place cannot be above all other considerations.”
—Michael Knowles [11:16]

The Vatican and the Ratlines

• Post-war Controversy:
  • Bishop Hudal and "ratlines" aiding Nazi escapees are acknowledged; Knowles suggests intentions were sometimes to save people fleeing retribution, not to promote Nazi ideology.
  • Reading the documents, he argues, shows consistent Vatican opposition to Nazism.

“It is not possible to look at the documents in the Vatican secret archive... and come to the conclusion that the Vatican was in any way sympathetic toward Nazism. It's not possible.”
—Michael Knowles [14:32]

4. Historical Context: The World of the 1930s-40s

• The Double Threat:
  • The Church faced both Nazism and Communism, longtime enemies of the Church.
• Hindsight & Fog of the Era:
  • Most people, then and now, underappreciated the unique evil and complexity of the period.

“A lot of people think that we have to pick a side between the brown shirts and the red shirts and the black shirts in Italy. You don't. You don't. You can pick the white cassock of the Holy Church.”
—Michael Knowles [21:17]

5. Lessons and Critiques

• Was Pius XII Perfect?
  • Knowles finds little to criticize in Pius XII directly, noting some flaws among other bishops or with historical hindsight about clearer Church messaging.

“No, really, I don't. I mean, I don't really have a criticism of him...”
—Michael Knowles [20:07]

• Fundamental Takeaway:
  • The story is about the "uneasiness of living in a fallen world" and the difficulty of steering between political extremes without compromising spiritual or moral clarity.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Pius XII’s Silence and Courage:

  “The truth is that this man stood firm against the Nazi regime. He helped many, many Jews and others to escape the atrocities. But a lot of his work was, in fact, in silence.”
  —Michael Knowles [03:13]

• On Church’s Dilemma:

  “The shepherd has a responsibility to his flock... the relationship between temporal and spiritual authority... goes all the way back to antiquity.”
  —Michael Knowles [08:00]

• Dispelling Modern Comparisons:

  “Patriotism is good. That's actually a virtue... However, when we make an idol out of the state, we fall into statism...”
  —Michael Knowles [11:16]

• Church vs. Ideological Tyranny:

  “Hitler had an idolatrous ideology of the state as being above everything else... the chief threat to his power, to his Reich was the Church.”
  —Michael Knowles [09:43]

• Looking Back with Hindsight:

  “If you put yourself in the position of the Vatican... the fact that the Vatican was able to do as much good as it was, to me, that's the real story, which has been inverted by other enemies of the Church.”
  —Michael Knowles [18:57]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:09] – The propaganda and myth around Pope Pius XII
• [02:29] – What the new documentary uncovers about the Vatican’s WWII files
• [04:16] – Addressing the arguments against Pius XII
• [06:26] – How the Vatican worked to save Jews
• [08:00] – Internal Church struggles and safeguarding Catholics
• [09:35] – Hitler's view of the Pope as his enemy
• [11:16] – Christian nationalism vs. Nazism
• [13:22] – Vatican “ratlines” controversy
• [15:43] – The context and “fog” of the 1930s-40s
• [19:39] – Lessons and possible criticisms of Pius XII
• [21:17] – Final reflections and living in a fallen world

Tone and Style

The dialogue is candid, sometimes humorous, but fundamentally serious and scholarly. Knowles is passionate in his defense of Pius XII, yet acknowledges the complexity and moral ambiguity of the era. The hosts challenge and probe, creating a respectful but engaging discussion.

Summary Takeaway

This episode reframes the legacy of Pope Pius XII, offering evidence from newly opened Vatican archives to challenge decades of negative propaganda. With historical and moral nuance, Knowles and the hosts argue that Pius XII acted heroically, if often covertly, to oppose Nazism and save countless lives, and that simplistic narratives do a disservice to the real story revealed in the Vatican files. The conversation leaves listeners with a deeper understanding of the moral challenges of leadership in crisis—and the danger of letting prejudice and propaganda obscure the truth.