← Most Valuable Agent with Matt Hannaford
Most Valuable Agent with Matt Hannaford
CBA Baseball’s Formula for Success: From Travel Ball to the Big Leagues
00:54:24
In this episode, Matt sits down with Jon Paino, longtime coach, teacher, and one of the architects behind CBA Baseball. From starting the program in honor of pioneer Mike Spears, to shaping a culture that develops players on and off the field, Jon...
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- [00:13]
A
The great John Payne.
- [00:14]
B
Yeah.
- [00:15]
A
All right, so we're joined by. I'm gonna call you a legend in the game.
- [00:18]
B
Well, it's a little much, but, you know, I am the elder statesman.
- [00:21]
A
There you go. Nowadays, I love it.
- [00:22]
B
You've.
- [00:23]
A
You've learned from some really respected baseball minds. So you are the. Can I call you, like, the architect of cba? Was that fair?
- [00:32]
B
I mean. Sure, sure.
- [00:34]
A
So you run a travel organization, CBA, since I want to say, is it 2013?
- [00:41]
B
2013.
- [00:41]
A
2013, which is when I met you. There's obviously many travel organizations throughout there. What is like if. If someone said to you, hey, why are you guys different? Give me your. Give me your elevator pitch. Why are you guys different?
- [00:56]
B
I think it goes back to when we started and the reasons. The reasons why we started. We all came from abd Amateur Baseball Development with Mike Spears. You know, a true pioneer.
- [01:10]
A
This is the legend I'm referring to.
- [01:11]
B
Yeah, man. Just a true pioneer in. In club sports. And he had the vision way back, and I remember working for him in 1990, doing a summer camp, and he had this vision about teams where he would go and. And play all star teams and beat the brakes off of all star teams. And he had this gleam in his eye and this sense of pride in the whole thing. And five years later, in 95, he was doing it. And, you know, he had all of these outside the box ideas, and so many things were on the cutting edge of amateur sports at the time. And lucky enough, you know, he was my hitting coach in 89 and 90. My high school coach was his college coach. And so we got to be, you know, really close that way. And when I decided to go into coaching, I reached out to him and he sent me all over the place to coach game after game after game from probably 2002 to. To 10, 11. And it was cool because I got to learn a lot from him. And when he passed away, it 2013, all we wanted to do was take his vision and everything that he wanted to do and just carry it forward with his son Joe, Josh Glassy, and a few other guys that. That followed us. But it was that, that. That started this. And, you know, we've been trying to. To stay ahead, you know, of the curve a little bit through what we do. And so I think if you look at our organization, we still have those same guys running it and operating it and working together, which is our strength, you know, in an industry now where you see people, you know, jumping ship left and right, going to this organization or that or this brand or that we're the same.
- [03:05]
A
Yeah.
- [03:05]
B
And you know, we don't plan on, on changing that.
- [03:08]
A
The, the vibe I get, and this is from obviously an insider perspective, knowing you, but also from an outside perspective, kind of just watching the landscape as, as parents see, and I know they can relate to this. They see all these different travel organizations out there and Yeah, I mean, there's like satellite teams popping up left and right. You know, some organizations have, you know, 20, 30 different teams. You guys strike me as one where I would almost say it's like there's an old school vibe to it, where it's like a, we work really hard, we do the little things the right way. And then at the same time there's this cutting edge side of it too, where you're aware of whether it's the data, the player development piece, all of this stuff. And so for me, it feels like you guys kind of have a, have a nice like, marriage of the two, but I want to get into. So you're call it like the end of your playing career. Right. Because I've heard this story. So you were going to play in college, if I'm not mistaken, and pretty much like overnight you realized, oh, wait a second, like, I actually don't have a roster spot. Tell us that story.
- [04:16]
B
Yeah, yeah, it was literally overnight. Gary Henderson, I believe is at Utah now, recruited me out of a junior college. And I thought I was going to Chapman University. You know, know, high school teammate of mine went there, Brian Green, he's the head coach at Witch State now. And I figured I'll just follow Brian. You know, he had a good time there. Let's do it. And so, you know, I called the school, they told me, you know, admissions was this date and move in was this date. So I packed my stuff up and you know, back then we didn't have, you know, Twitter or, you know, any ways of communication other than the rotary phone. And, and so, you know, Nicole, it's my wife, obviously now we packed up the truck and headed to, headed to Chapman and we walked in the office and Gary wasn't there anymore. It was new head coach. And he looked at me and he said, hey, sorry, son, we don't, I don't know who you are, and we don't have a spot.
- [05:14]
A
Wow.
- [05:15]
B
And okay, you know, and so we got back in the truck, we looked at each other and we said, what the heck are we going to do? And so I ended up crashing classes at a, at Cal State San Marcos and finished my degree There. And I just immediately started coaching. You know, I knew that, you know, I wanted to do something in sports, you know, whether that was teaching or, or whatever it was. But yeah, that was a, that was a quick pivot and a quick decision.
- [05:45]
A
I, I feel like so many, I mean, look, I can certainly relate to, you know, oh, wow, this is the end of the career. Like, it happens fast. And I think when we're kids and we, like, romanticize about, like, is going to go. We think, no, no, we're going to be on TV one day and it's going to be great. It's all going to work out. But when those moments hit. Yeah, it's like, it, how long did you have to go through this period of like, no, literally, what am I going to do? Like, was this, did you know, like, in 24 hours, like, I guess I'll just get into coaching, or was it like, no, this is, I mean, it's months later.
- [06:15]
B
It, it was, it was relatively quick, you know, because I, I, I don't, I don't think that we put as much emphasis back then on, on playing and moving on and playing college baseball as, as kids and families do today. Like, we didn't have the youth sports that exist now with the transparency and visibility of all of those kids and what they do and, you know, kind of the, the roadmap that all these organizations create for parents, we didn't have that. So, you know, all I had was, you know, American Legion during the summer and, and the high school season. So, you know, it was a quick decision. And, you know, my dad was always super realistic. You know, we grew up, you know, on a farm, on a ranch, and, and so work was paramount. And I think that's probably why I went into baseball and my brother went into fishing. He makes fishing tackle for a living. And so we kind of, I guess, live our passion, you know, that way, which is cool. But yeah, it was quick.
- [07:17]
A
So for everybody watching, this man is very reserved. And one of the things I feel like we have to mention, because I do believe it goes into, like, your style of coaching. You're also a teacher. Yeah. Tell everybody. What do you teach?
- [07:32]
B
I teach government, Temecula Valley High School. You know, it's, for me, it's a great way to create relationships with young people. And when you talk about the coaching thing, the coach and the teacher that I am now at, you know, 52, is way different than, than the person at 30 that was doing the same thing. You know, I look back at a lot of the Things that I did and for the right reasons, obviously, that I would probably never do. Never do now, you know, my son's journey changed everything that I do as a coach.
- [08:14]
A
In what way? Well, tell everybody about your son because they may not know.
- [08:18]
B
Yeah, so he went to a local high school. He did not go to the high school that, That I was at. I didn't think that dad being involved in. In his son's everything, you know, was good for his growth as a young man. So we put him out on his own at another school, and, you know, there were some ups and downs there. The, the guy that ran the baseball program didn't necessarily agree with what I do, and it was kind of taken out on. On him and.
- [08:46]
A
Oh, wow.
- [08:46]
B
Yeah. And so as a dad, it would have been very easy for me to go in and, you know, guns a blazing and do what parents do, but I sat back and I let it happen and I let it play out, and I didn't soften or, or smooth out the bumps in the road ever. And. And it opened my eyes to a lot of things, you know, and. And then as he goes through college, the way people communicate with athletes, the way people believe they're trying to get the most out of every athlete, may not be it from the parent side and the player side. So I got to see that. I got to see maybe the same thing I did at, you know, 30, 35 through a parent's eyes, right? And I was like, wow, that's. That's pretty dumb. I think I did that at, at 35. Why did I do. Why did I do that? Why did I do that? You know, and so, you know, it created really good dialogue between my son, myself, my wife, our family as to how do we really get the most out of every athlete. Because in what I do, the wins and losses are. Are. Are secondary. You know what I mean? They. They matter, but they don't. You know, I. I'm a firm believer in when a kid comes into the program and a kid comes into our teams, we. We have to send them out in a better position, right? We have to send them out in a better place. And what does that mean? Right? What's. What's the measure for, for better position? And to me, you know, I'm no longer in the business of wins and losses and, and, you know, trophies and all that kind of stuff. I'm in the business of building confidence, right? Because if a player is confident in himself and in his abilities and has the background behind him, that. That shows the Success and shows what confidence can do. He's going to be a better baseball player, he's going to be a better businessman, he's going to be a better father. And so that's what we do, you know, and it goes hand in hand with. With game management. Right? Because a kid can make a mistake in a game, and I've heard it and I've seen it, and I've probably done it where we want to blow the kid up and sure, you know, make light of the mistake, but at the end of the day, what does that do for him? What does it do? It's easy for me because that's the easy way out. But, you know, building confidence in the way we say things and the way we present the information through the mistake is the most important thing.
- [11:12]
A
So is that something that was taught to you, or is this something that you've learned through and called osmosis of, like your son's journey, you being a teacher, realizing how to communicate with young people, common sense on some level, being aware, like what, what?
- [11:28]
B
It's all the above because, you know, I think we've all heard coaches complain about the dynamic today with, with parents, kids, you know, whoever. Right, whoever. But at the end of the day, kids are kids and kids will always be kids. And it's not the kids who have changed. It's the. The entities and the mediums around them that have changed. Which changes the perspective of a kid, say in 2025, you know, versus, you know, I don't know, 1996, when I first started coaching. And so at the end of the day, the kid's the same. And so to get that. That same result or the same, I guess, effort from the young man, the way we say things today and the way we present the information is extremely important because kids are going to turn off a whole lot quicker today than they did 20 years ago, especially if you say something, you know, combative or you say something the wrong way. And, you know, and I'm sure there are a lot of people that are going to think that this is soft, but I don't think so, because we're going to have to adapt. And you can see the people who aren't adapting, right, how difficult it is sometimes today.
- [12:41]
A
What's. Because I. I think when I hear the word confidence, right, I mean, I think everybody understands what that word ultimately means. But as you think about helping, you know, whether it's a kid who's 10 or 11 to 17, 18 years old, like, actually build that confidence, that's A tricky thing today. It's always been a tricky thing, but I feel like today even more so because you have these, you know, the ranking systems and everybody, you know, forever has been told now they're like the next coming of whichever. And so they go through their kind of youth journey and they get to a place where their whole identity is wrapped up in being a successful baseball player. And I can see it every year where it gets set up to where, you know, if we were going through the draft process with a player and I'm having conversations with scouts and I'm getting the impression like this kid's, he's going to be, you know, eighth rounder, right? Not a first rounder. You can start to see, see the wheels spinning now. One of the reasons why is, well, it bums me out. Like I actually wanted, I thought I had a chance to be like a legit guy. But there's also this other element that comes into play, which is what are all my buddies going to think when I'm not the guy that I thought I was going to be? Like, it's almost like they're concerned about how people are going to view them. Like they're not, they're not living up to that expectation. And so as I think about building confidence for a young person, how do you do that?
- [14:07]
B
It's a culture thing and it's not as much me as it is the people around him and the culture that you create. So, for instance, the first time we get together, we talk about legitimately celebrating each other's successes. And in our environment, if you're not able to celebrate your teammates success, you stick out like a sore thumb. You stick out big time. And so we've had people over the years that didn't quite fit and they, they leave, obviously, but it's, it's that, it's being able to put your guard down and that takes time. Like, to be truly confident, you have to put your guard down and you have to be comfortable with yourself. And so we go through a lot of things that we do as a team to get kids to put their guard down and to be okay with coaching and to be okay with, you know, your teammate, you know, patting you on the back and saying, hey man, let's go. And that takes time and that takes trust. And if you're constantly blowing a kid up, you know, or, you know, creating some type of negative feedback, that's not going to happen, you know, and I knew that, you know, what we were doing was right and what we were doing was best for kids. And when my son went to Clemson, Bakish does the same thing, but on a completely another level. Like on a, on a scientific, on a interpersonal, it's all research backed, it's all science based. And what he does is second to none. And so learning a lot over the last year that way, we've implemented a lot of those things to make what we do even better. And I mean, I hate to draw a parallel, but over the last year, you know, you've seen the success of, you know, our teams with, we don't go and chase the top 10 ranked player. We don't, you know, cold call those people. It's all based on referral and people who want to be a part of what we do. But winning Jupiter, winning Georgia, you know, I think it's due in large part to adding all of those pieces to create that confident culture.
- [16:23]
A
So I think when, when the majority of people who are, who are listening probably assume, oh, we measure whether a travel organization is good or not based on, like how many tournaments they're winning. Right? And I would argue that is like the laziest and probably, I don't know, like the most ordinary way to look at things, but not the most accurate. I think one of the things that makes way more sense when you evaluate the job that a travel organization does is who are some players who were in a certain place going into the program who eventually grew and became these guys when they left the program? Who are some guys that you are? And I'm sure there's many, but are there any guys that you're, like, really proud of the development piece and how they completely transformed their game, not because of you, but you helped them realize something that they had.
- [17:18]
B
Who would that be, you know, this year? Specifically? Tyler Bremner, second pick in the draft by the Angels. I mean, yeah, he's not bad. He's not bad. When, when Tyler came, he had a, A, so, so junior year in high school, he came out to a workout. You know, the command was spotty, you know, but you could tell that there was some. There, there was something there, right? But you could tell that, you know, he would throw a ball, right? And you could see the reservation in his body language. You could see him, you know, kind of pull back a little bit. And so, you know, we had a really great group of kids that summer. We had, you know, Justin Crawford was on the team. TJ Adams is at Arizona. Cutter Coffee was at shortstop. Just a dynamic group of people. Ben Jacobs, you know, Ben Jacobs was Actually the number one on that, that summer. And slowly, you know, through celebrating each other's successes, through all of the stuff that we put in, you know, before games to create that culture, you could see Tyler, you could see the guard going down, you could see more confident body language. And we'll never forget it. We talk about it all the time. He came in after a no hit inning in a really, really pressure filled kind of environment in Georgia and he's high fiving his teammates on the way in and he jumps into the dugout like a 12 year old kid.
- [18:42]
A
I love it.
- [18:43]
B
And he says, man, I'm really good at this baseball. And we, all of us, you know, Matt Jervis and I, we looked at each other and we're like, we did it. Yeah, you know, he, he, he did it and then he started, you know, his meteoric rise, you know, in the game and watching him through college and you know, obviously Santa Barbara took it to a whole nother level with him and then, you know, second pick of the draft.
- [19:07]
A
Yeah, that was a good example. Is there anybody that maybe is less well known? I'm trying to think off the top of my head, anybody that jump out.
- [19:18]
B
Yeah, I mean, we've had, you know, quite a few kids over the years that, you know, exceed their expectations and end up, you know, at a Division 1 school. You know, I mean, you can go up and down.
- [19:31]
A
What about Luke Williams?
- [19:32]
B
Holy smokes. Yeah, Luke will.
- [19:35]
A
Well, because you were trying to, you were. I mean, part of what you guys do, which I want to get into, is the whole college thing, Right, like identifying good, you know, good programs for these specific players. But he was somebody that, like, it wasn't like he had, you know, 15 schools fighting over his services. And yet he then became, in a very short time, I think he was a fourth rounder.
- [19:57]
B
Yeah, yeah. Third. He might argue with us on that, probably. Third. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he, we knew he was really good. He was on a team. I think there were like 12 kids drafted off of that team. Nick Madrigal at short, you know, I mean, it was, Bailey Falter was on that team. You know, I mean, it was crazy. It was a crazy group. And that was the first group that we had that, you know, followed us out of abd into what we have now. And we tried so hard to get schools to see it. And people were like, ah, you know, plays football. Didn't get to see him in the fall. But you know, right around November, December of a senior year, I called his dad and I said, hey, we're getting all kinds of calls on him. You might need an advisor. And the dad was like, what, what do we need an advisor for? You know, he, he's not going to get drafted. You know, it took us forever to get Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo to, to take him. You know, he obviously committed there and ended up being a third round pick. Had an unbelievable senior year. But the thing with Luke, you know, and I can say this now looking back, he was one of the most unselfish kids that has come through the program. And there's another one on that team, Bryce Femmel went to Oregon State, another one. And that those guys essentially set the standard for what culture is here, you know, and pretty cool. I mean, he still contacts us, he still, you know, invites us to games and we're in Georgia. He showed up to a playoff game in Georgia this year. So, I mean, he's still tied to the program.
- [21:37]
A
I love that. I feel like a lot. Yeah. I mean, the majority of the guys that I know that have played for you, everybody is still connected on some level. Like, you guys stay in touch with them. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, you know, I think people think about. Oh yeah, I stay in touch with my high school buddies, but nowadays it's like a lot of them, it's, it's the travel organizations and the, and the, the teammates that they had there.
- [21:56]
B
Yeah, I mean, we spent a lot of time, you know, on the road together and a lot of bonding. Yes.
- [22:01]
A
Yeah.
- [22:02]
B
Yeah.
- [22:03]
A
Okay, so I want to give some stats, which I pulled this up, so you're gonna have to sit through me, you know, paying you some compliments here, so just bear with me. So you guys have had more than it looks like. 14, 40 college commitments, 185 draft picks, 23 big leaguers and counting. I want to get into, I guess, your baseball. I maybe almost put like a scout hat on for a second. What? Three? I would say, like developmental. When you watch a kid, right, who maybe is getting to a point where he's looking to play for a travel organization and let's just say it's, it's middle infielder. What are like the, the. Give me three things that you're like, I want to, I want to look for. Does he possess these three things and maybe it's different for another travel organization. What would be your, like, three biggest.
- [22:59]
B
The three biggest are for us. One is energy. You know, we have to have, you know, a positive energy about the kid, body language. All that stuff goes into play. If we're talking to shortstop and he's going to play for us. We've had, I think four or five of our shortstops are in the big leagues. There's a few more coming. We've had some good ones. The young man's got to be able to play with one hand. He's got to play free and confident with one hand. And we can, you know, we can teach that and help them with it, but ultimately they have to have that ability. And in today's game, you know, it's becoming a big man's game here. Real fast offense, you know, you, you have to hit today.
- [23:42]
A
Yeah, so, so energy.
- [23:45]
B
Yeah. Number one offense. Yeah.
- [23:48]
A
What was the third?
- [23:49]
B
The third one is if he's. Oh, middle infielder. Yeah. He's got to be able to play confident free with. With one hand.
- [23:54]
A
Interesting. I've never heard it explained like that and I like that. And is this something that you feel like you've just kind of realized over the years, like, or do you actually show up saying, like, I know these are the first three things, or is it like.
- [24:06]
B
No, that's, that's what we look for. And, and you know, the free with one hand thing, that, that is. You go back to Mike Spears. You know, he was super, super adamant about infielders not funneling. And I think we've adjusted a little bit, right, because, you know, each ball is different, you know, and sometimes your game clock tells you you have time or, or sometimes you don't. But he was adamant about being able to feel with one hand and not funneling and moving through baseballs. And so a lot of it was what we learned, you know, there, but it's kind of evolved today a little bit.
- [24:41]
A
So I've heard you talk a lot about wanting to create kind of like a practice environment that oftentimes is more challenging than a game environment. I totally agree with that. But like, where did that come from? Was that also Mike?
- [24:55]
B
Yeah, it is. I mean, like, there are things that we do that we're not going to waver on. Like our on. On a fly ball, always going to touch two, you know, on contact and one, you know, kid's not going to take advantage of a pop up and slow down. We play one way, we're going to play hard. Like I said, we don't, you know, try and go get, you know, higher ranked guys to play over the top of the kids that have come through the program.
- [25:19]
A
You give them an opportunity to, to develop and you're not just going to go, hey, this Kid's available. He's a shortstop. He's better than my shortstop. We're going to Jupiter. So, like, never, right?
- [25:28]
B
You know, and to that point, you know, our system funnels up, right? So all of our regional teams funnels up to the top team. And we don't do that until the kids are 17, because we have. I mean, how many kids have you seen at 14 that are tabbed as the best player in the world? And then at 17, you know, they're. They're not heard from. And so we want to give every kid a chance to develop, you know, within the program and grow and get stronger and have a chance to, you know, to do those cool things in the game. And I think they wouldn't be afforded that if we did it too early.
- [26:01]
A
Talk a little bit, I guess, to the parents who are listening, who they're so hungry for, like, what do I need to have my son do? I think about CBA and the way that you coach and it feels a lot like a college program, right? And one of the reasons why. I think. And look, I think if you have one particular player, I'm not saying college is best for this guy and. Or pro ball is best for this guy, like, depends on a million different factors, but I do believe that it, like the discipline that guys get when they play for you, the accountability that guys get when they play for you, like, the fundamentals that guys get when they play for you, it's a lot of, like, the coaching vibe, right? But talk to the parents and give. Give these parents, like, again, to the middle infield guy. Like, what would you say? You need to make sure that he focuses and works on these things every single day.
- [26:56]
B
Right?
- [26:56]
A
What would those things be?
- [26:58]
B
I think that parents. Parents need to get into a routine themselves. Because if you want and your son wants. That's the first thing, right? If your son wants to play college baseball at any level, I think the parents need to be comfortable with a routine themselves. And so, like. Like, for us, it was, you know, we'd go to work and then, you know, the boys would come home from practice, and it was quick dinner, quick to the cage, quick to the facility to lift. Parents have to be okay with that routine and that routine encroaching on their life a little bit, because it's that kind of support that we see from the better players that allows them to succeed, because it's the routine that's going to put you in the position to succeed as a young player today. And so you can't avoid the strength development. You can't avoid, you know, hitting on a regular basis. You can't avoid the stretching and arm care. You can't avoid it. And so I think a lot of parents, especially in the younger travel ages, get caught up in allowing that, that, that team to be their, their social outlet. It can't be your social outlet. And I know I'm probably going to take a little bit of criticism for that because it was not our social outlet and we did take criticism for that as a family. But it's fine. You have to get used to that routine. You have to get used to being inconvenienced a little bit because it's that support system that's going to allow that kid to succeed later on. And if he's not getting attention at 15, 16, that's okay. Don't worry about that. Stick to the routine. Because at the end of the day, it's going to be that routine that allows that young man to be successful. Now, if you, you know, throw your kid a gym membership, you know, and say, go to, you know, Eos Fitness or whatever, and get it done on your own, I'm not sure that's going to do it today. You know, there has to be, like, for instance, we have an app that takes care of that for those families.
- [28:58]
A
Is that the Diamond Allegiance?
- [28:59]
B
Yeah, it takes care of that. So it has customized workout programs and things for the kid who does not have his own trainer. So there's no excuse today, you know, there's really not. And it's that, like I said, it's that routine that's going to allow that kid to succeed. And yes, parents, jump on board. Let it inconvenience you a little bit. Enjoy the ride with your kid, because, you know, that's what's going to allow him to succeed.
- [29:21]
A
I want to talk about Diamond Allegiance, but before we do, I do want to, like, it's an interesting balance that we're talking about because I think you have these two ends of the spectrum. One is the parent is like, this is all an inconvenience. And I, you know, this is ridiculous. What are we doing? And then the other end is literally, it's all we're doing. And they get so wrapped up in almost not letting their kid just, like, let it develop a little bit. Like, it's like you said, if he's not getting attention at 15, it's not the end of the world. Give it time, right? And so I feel like there is a balance because you sway one way or the other. Too much. And. Yeah, it's. It's like. I don't know. It's. It's. It's not gonna work as. I think about kind of like that perfect balance. I don't know that there actually is, because I think it's all based on the family, the dynamic, the resources. What are the circumstances? You know, if they're playing for you guys and they're in Southern California, maybe it's easier to get to some things, but if. Do you actually have anybody who's outside of this region?
- [30:27]
B
We do.
- [30:28]
A
Okay, so, like, what do those kids do? Like, what's the kid who's furthest away? What state?
- [30:32]
B
Georgia.
- [30:33]
A
Oh, wow.
- [30:34]
B
Okay.
- [30:35]
A
And so how does that kid do it with. Is it only select events as far as playing with. So if someone's gonna say, I'm gonna be with cba, is there a minimum amount of events that they have to agree to go to?
- [30:48]
B
No.
- [30:49]
A
Okay.
- [30:50]
B
We don't do that.
- [30:51]
A
Okay. So you could have a kid in Georgia who's like, hey, coach, I'm gonna be at. You know, I'm gonna be in Atlanta with you. Right. I'm gonna be in Phoenix with you. I'm gonna be in Jupiter with you. But those are, like, my three events, and that's.
- [31:04]
B
That.
- [31:04]
A
That works.
- [31:05]
B
Yes.
- [31:05]
A
Okay. I mean, a lot of programs are not that way.
- [31:09]
B
Well, at the end of the day, whose journey is it? Yeah, you know, is. You know, I had. A long time ago, I had a. An old coach. Guy had done it for years, one upteen high school championships, and he looked at me and he says, hey. He goes, people before program. He goes, say. He said, people before program. Program before winning. And winning is extremely, extremely important.
- [31:37]
A
Oh, I love that.
- [31:39]
B
And I took a step back at the time, I think I was 22, and I was like, what's this guy? What's this guy talking about? And, you know, the more I coached and the. As the years have gone by, that's sort of my lens.
- [31:51]
A
Like, people before program, program before winning. And winning is extremely important.
- [31:57]
B
It's extremely important. And so that's been kind of like my lens, you know, and so when a kid, you know, can't make it, what. What are we doing? You know, is he spending time with his family? Is. Is there some roadblock to him not being able to attend? And all that does is really open up another opportunity for somebody in the program to move off a regional team and let's go. And that's the end of the day. That's what we're Doing is creating opportunities.
- [32:23]
A
So let's talk about Diamond Allegiance real fast because it is an interesting resource that you guys have access to help everybody understand what it is.
- [32:33]
B
So private equity is coming hard and fast into the club space. You have private equity firms that are buying up facilities all over the country. And so Sandy Ogg, who started the Diamond Allegiance, he had two. Two of his sons go through club baseball and college baseball, and he essentially wanted to use what he had created to create a better club experience for kids. And so it started out as a group of us, there were five of us that started it, and to create better business tools, help us run a better business, collaborate on ideas, you know, share as much information as we possibly could. And for me, that was, you know, that that was the draw is to be able to rub elbows with all of these different people and share ideas and look at things through. Through a different lens, through Sandy's eyes, as a. As a very successful. And it was one of those, like, pinch me moments. There's been a few over the last 15 years where it's like, how did I get here? Like, what am I doing in this room? And so it's evolved now into about 40 clubs across the country. We just had a meeting this morning where, again, we're sharing ideas, they're getting all kinds of deals and things to help us run better businesses and help us forward new products and innovations to our members. And the focus of the entire thing is built around the 85% of players, right? Because the top 10 to 15%, let's just call it what it is, they don't need us. There's going to be a school, there's going to be somebody that goes and recruits. You know, take Justin Crawford. There's going to be a school that recruits Justin Crawford. There's going to be a scout that drafts Justin Crawford. It's the 85% of players today, especially in the college recruiting landscape, that need that boost. And so this was the, you know, this was. Sealed the deal for me is that it targets all of those players. And so we ran our first event a couple weeks ago and, you know, we got four or five kids, college offers, you know, and then the best part is they've created this test called a curve score. We have a testing facility.
- [34:54]
A
We have an app too on there, right? Yeah, I saw that.
- [34:57]
B
Yeah, there's an app. We have a testing facility at Lake Point. We have mobile test centers now. And so we've had players that we knew were good.
- [35:04]
A
This is like body assessment, like force Plate stuff, all the above.
- [35:07]
B
It's brain. So they created all kinds of games and things for kids to do that test stress level, it tests anxiety level, who's going to perform under pressure. And Prometric, the company that legitimizes the SAT act, all of the, you know, LSATs, med school tests, all that, they legitimize the score so it's on them to make sure the testing environment is perfect and everything is legitimate. So it's not just, you know, me and Joe Spears rolling out the balls and trying to test kids on an open field. It's a legitimate, you know, testing environment. And so the testing that we did, we put all the kids in the event through the testing, and it gave us actual data to show, hey, this kid is good. Now here's why he's good. I know he's good by watching him, right? And. But now we've got all kinds of metrics and data and everything to prove that, yes, you know, this kid is definitely good. And, you know, the interesting part is once you. Once you include the brain part, the body part, which is all your physical testing, and the ball part, which is what you do with the baseball from a hitting and pitching perspective, once you combine all of them, it really, really works. And so in the very beginning, they tested three players. You know, one who is going to gray out off the charts on the body part, one kind of middle of the road who we thought was the best baseball player in the group, and then another kid who it was kind of iffy. Right. And so by testing all three players, it spit out that if I was a college and I was somebody that was going to invest in a player, we're going to take player number two, because he's going to be more successful as a baseball player, even with lower metrics, than the kid who had higher metrics.
- [36:53]
A
So, you know, Simon Sinek is.
- [36:56]
B
I don't.
- [36:56]
A
What?
- [36:57]
B
No. Should I? Yes.
- [37:01]
A
Hopefully, people listening, they know who Simon Sinek is. He. So he's a really successful speaker, author, but he oftentimes talks about he was having a conversation with a Navy seal, and this guy had advanced to be. He wasn't just any Navy seal, he was like a commander or whatever. And in this conversation, he says, describe to me, like, who becomes Navy seals? And the guy's answer was, I can't tell you who becomes Navy SEALs, but I can tell you who doesn't become Navy SEALs. And he says, the guys that don't become Navy Seals are the guys that are, like, the most physically Gifted. Like the high school quarterback who. You know, the guy that's all jacked, who's got tattoos on his sleeves. Like, those guys don't make it. The guy who's like, oh, he just wants to talk about how good of a leader he is all the time. Those guys don't make it. He goes. The guys that actually do make it, when you think about it, are these really scrawny, skinny. They fly under the radar. And these guys, the reason why I believe they're the ones who eventually make it is because when everybody is literally just like, knocked out on the ground dead, they haven't slept. Like, we're talking about buds at the this point, right? Like, they haven't slept. Those guys, those scrawny guys that you would never think would be the guys that would make it, all they do is they look at their guy next to him and they say, I got to be there for you. And it's interesting because I think about what you just said about, like, we would take this guy, and it's like, those guys, they possess something that maybe you can't measure it right in the stat line, but he's the guy that you go watch, and you're like, I don't know, man. Every time I see this game, this guy is on base, he's stealing bags, he's scoring runs, he's making the hard play, he's making the easy play. Like, he's just a really, really good baseball player. And, like, I love that you now are able to kind of figure out those metrics.
- [38:47]
B
Yeah.
- [38:48]
A
Who's designing the. The. Like, the strength component, like, the plans?
- [38:54]
B
I think it's been a group of. Of people.
- [38:58]
A
Got it.
- [38:59]
B
I know that, you know, Our board consists of Michelle Smith from softball, Tracy Smith, Michigan. Eric Bak Sullivan, Pat Casey. And so the resources that all of those guys have, you know, I think has contributed to all the tests and everything that. That we do.
- [39:16]
A
And so your guys, when they come through the program, they have like, is it. It's just an app, or.
- [39:23]
B
Everybody has access to an app. That's part of it. But the testing is done independent. So we do the testing through Diamond Allegiance Events. They're giving us ball kits to test different things, so we'll be able to do it, you know, ourselves, you know, following the protocols. You know, the plan is to do two or three events a year to where we test everybody, you know, and obviously prove proof of concept. This does actually work because I was floored, you know, because at first I'm like, okay, we're going to test this. How much different is this than putting a Rap Soto out and. And a Trackman out? But it's very different. When I saw the results the first time, I called Matt Gerber, who's been kind of the linchpin in this whole thing, ran the Orlando Scorpions forever. I called him, I said, hey, man, this. This really works. And it was. It was pretty eye opening.
- [40:17]
A
And do you find that a lot of the guy? Because I think it's one thing to have access to something, it's another thing for the kids to actually use it. Are you finding that the kids are using it now?
- [40:25]
B
Yeah, after the first event, you know. You know, we actually. We actually posted graphics and leaderboards from the event, and, you know, we know it works.
- [40:35]
A
Smart.
- [40:36]
B
Yeah, we know it works when the other programs, our competitors, are recruiting our guys now based off of those graphics.
- [40:42]
A
So I want to talk to you a little bit about. We kind of addressed it earlier, but you guys do the little things the right way, right? You're very big on. Call it like how you carry yourself. You guys have a dress code. I've heard that you have. Is there a hair length limit on cba? But I want to get into, like, the reasons as to why, because I think sometimes people will hear this and be like, rules. What are the. Like, come on, what are we doing? And they want to be more like. And people may not understand this reference. They want to be more like the A's, not like the Yankees, where what you guys are doing with the, you know, these, these rules is. It feels more Yankee. Like, so, like, talk about that.
- [41:25]
B
So that goes back again, you know, to where we came from. And a lot of the rules we just adopted, we've. We've changed, added to, modified a little bit. But first, for instance, is the way we wear the uniform. We leave the car in full uniform, shoes on. You're not going to see us, you know, undressing or. Or, you know, undressing in the dugout or in the parking lot. It's just not. That's just not going to happen. We want to maintain an air of professionalism from the time we leave the car to the time we get back in the car. And I think that creates an overall, I guess, expectation not only, not only for the kid, but for the parents and for everybody involved. And the best part is about it now it's become culture to where you step outside of those rules. Everybody in the place is looking at you like, hey, man, what are you. What are you doing? And so we wear our pants long for the purpose of making a kid look as athletic as possible. As long and lean, tall, no pants up. Never.
- [42:29]
A
Interesting.
- [42:30]
B
Never.
- [42:32]
A
You strike me as a guy when you played, you went pants up. You in stirrups.
- [42:35]
B
Oh, hey, guys, if. If I wore my pants up, dude, there is no nothing athletic about that. There is no nothing.
- [42:42]
A
Okay.
- [42:43]
B
Yeah. And then, you know, it's. That's not. I wasn't. That's not a me thing. That was a Mike Spears thing, you know, and so when we talk to parents about it, we tell them why, you know, and it's to make your son as marketable as possible. If I'm, you know, short and squatty, that's not as marketable as tall, long, and lean.
- [43:01]
A
Yeah.
- [43:02]
B
You know, and so Maruchi designed a pair of pants for us. It took a while, um, but they did. And that works. You know, we wear our uniform a certain way when we're in the hotels. We have dress code in the hotel that the kids follow. What's that, for example? No hats inside, polo shirts, dress shorts. When we're walking around outside of the hotel. Obviously, when in the room, they do whatever they want.
- [43:29]
A
I love this.
- [43:30]
B
Going out to dinner, same thing. You know, the dress code. And. And it matters, you know, I mean, I. You know, good friend of yours, Chris Betts, when he was growing up, you know, they took it a step further, and they wore business suits on the airplane, you know, to different events. And, you know, he called me, I think, when he was in low A and he was getting moved to hai, and he just put on his khakis and his polo, just like he had always done. Went out and waited, and two of the teammates that were being moved with him showed up in tank tops and, you know, cut off shorts or whatever, and they got sent back and fined, and Chris got to move on, and he called me. He goes, hey, this was what I've always done. He goes, and I just got rewarded for it.
- [44:16]
A
You know why I love it, though? I mean, I grew up in my household, like, we had chores. There was a lot of discipline. Like, there were rules. And obviously, as a kid that age, you know, you fight it, and you're just like, why? You know, everyone else is doing this? Why can't we be the guys that are doing all this stuff? The kids don't even. They can't even grasp the lesson yet. Right. Some of them may learn to appreciate it. But for anybody who internally hears this, who's like, really? That's. We just want to play baseball and have fun. It's like we're not doing it to look good necessarily. It's, it's all about the why, like behind the scenes. And that's something like I, I, I respect it because when you talk about needing to be somebody at the next level, who shows up on time. Right. Who communicates with adults, has hard conversations, all of this stuff goes into their ability to do that. That's why I respect this.
- [45:14]
B
Yeah. And that's the, that's the purpose. Right. When we talk about the kids leaving in a better position or in a better spot, that's all a part of it. You know, we had a workout at Arizona State. We could have just gone and hit and whatever, but we made them watch an hour long deal on Pat Tillman and then we walked out to left field where they have the Tillman 42 on the wall. And we talked about living life with passion and not allowing anybody to put boundaries around you and what you want to do and living life by a different set of values than the mainstream. And so I think all of that just goes into everything that we do.
- [45:54]
A
Yeah. So obviously, as I think about kind of the game at the college level, I mean, we see it every day how much it's changing. Obviously your son was a part of this. Right. He ended up transferring from CBU to, to Clemson. How do you help, let's just say like 20, 26 kids right now that are going to be potentially draft eligible or seniors this year. How do you help them prepare for going to college in a time when the transfer portal is such a real thing? And you know, like, specifically, I think about a kid who, let's just say, isn't going to be a high draft pick, is it has the potential to be drafted, call it like the 13th round. Right. Has a D1 opportunity, but also is really struggling with like, you know, it's at a really good school and should I, am I better serve just to go to a junior college? Like, do you help kids analyze and like, figure out what is the right move for them?
- [46:51]
B
We do. You know, part of that guidance I, I think is an important part of what we do. But today we're in a unique situation where kids don't pick schools anymore. Schools pick kids because of the roster restrictions and everything that's in place. And in the same breath, answer that question. I don't think there is anything in the, in the 18 and under and below, in the high school and club space that can prepare a freshman for that first fall, you know, like the competition that you're gonna just the, the schedule, the competition. And so you have to create a culture where betting on yourself and believing in yourself without reservation is the only thing that's gonna help prepare them. Because when they walk into that environment and they're, you know, their first at bat is against a 24 year old grad transfer.
- [47:48]
A
Yeah.
- [47:48]
B
You know, it's a way different situation. And so that's the only thing that I think we can give them to help prepare them to be successful because it's a way different environment.
- [47:58]
A
Now when we think about like, you know, we've watched a lot of baseball games and when we go to a field and we see a kid, we may see a kid one or two times and all of a sudden we may either feel like this kid has a chance or there's something about this, like, I don't think this kid's going to be able to develop. And we've been wrong many times. But the, the, the thing that I always kind of look at is does this kid look like he believes in himself? Right. And the reason why, for me, that is such an important thing is because there is naturally going to be failure. Whether it's in college or whether it's in pro ball, that kid is going to fail. And if he doubts his abilities, he may learn to trust himself and, and realize, oh, you know, I actually had a client many years ago who he would get moved up a level and the first year he was there, he would struggle and then he realized, oh, I belong. And then his next year he would dominate and then get promoted halfway through the season, and then sure enough, next level he'd do the same exact thing. And this guy got to the big leagues, actually had a decent career, but he was somebody who, like, he didn't just have the confidence right away, but he learned I can, I can hang here. But for me, like, as I think about a kid, that is one of the first things I look at because if they don't possess kind of that innate belief in themselves, even at college, like it's, this is not going to be a walk in the park.
- [49:15]
B
Right.
- [49:16]
A
You've got to show up ready to go or the transfer portal, another player, whoever it is, they're gonna, they're gonna play over you. So it's not a question, it's more of a comment.
- [49:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's, no, it's a, it's a way different environment, you know.
- [49:35]
A
All right, I got two more questions for you. Think beyond like stat Lines. How would you measure success beyond that?
- [49:46]
B
How many kids, how many kids lives were improved? I think that's the, that's the measure. You know, we can look back at. Take for example, you know, a team that was not. Or a group graduating class that was not as successful on paper. Right. But when you have, you know, take our, you know, 2017 grad class or 19 grad class, when you have, you know, 120 kids committed to college, moving on. I don't, I don't think there's any other greater measure, right. More important than, you know, wins, losses, events, any, any of that, you know, and we've had kids come into the organization, you know, for one event and springboard, and the parents like, hey, you know what? We're gonna, we're gonna bow out of this and go, do, you know, go play football or, or whatever. With his Division 1 baseball offer. Anytime we can improve a kid's life or help them reach their goals, that's it. And it sounds cliche, right? But. But it's not. That's. That's the ultimate measure.
- [50:54]
A
I love that. All right, now this is maybe a tricky one for you. Finish this sentence. You ready for this?
- [51:01]
B
All right.
- [51:01]
A
I'm the teacher right now.
- [51:02]
B
Yeah.
- [51:03]
A
All right. If I could change one thing about the travel baseball culture tomorrow, it would be this, and here's why. That change would help both recruiting coordinators and families.
- [51:15]
B
Can I answer it twice?
- [51:17]
A
Sure.
- [51:17]
B
Okay. So the first one would be mutual respect and trust between club owners.
- [51:23]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [51:23]
B
Yeah, I think that, that, that travel.
- [51:26]
A
Travel, baseball, club owners.
- [51:28]
B
Yes. Mutual respect and trust. Because right now, you know, and it's been this way, you know, ever since I can remember, you know, it's more like the wild, wild west, right, where players are bouncing here, there, you know, and there are, there are organizations that I work closely with that I'm really good friends with the guys who run it. And if a player leaves us disgruntled for whatever reason or doesn't want to follow the rules or whatever, and he tries to go to program A, B or C, they're not going to take him either. And so it's that through mutual respect and trust, I think we can provide a better product. I think we can work together to create more opportunities for kids, you know, again, putting our guard down and working with people. And I think we can create a better education platform, you know, for parents together instead of always, you know. Well, he says this and he says this and he says that instead of, and just deliver the same message. Because I think we're all at the end of the day trying to do the same thing, you know, for parents and for kids. And so the more we work together, the better, you know, the better that'll be.
- [52:34]
A
Yeah, I do agree with you. I, I actually think about that a lot in the business that I'm in. You know, when you really think about, like, what are we all doing this for? And if we are in this business not for the betterment of the player, but for ourselves, we should never be in this business. And obviously with that comes, well, yeah, you're trying to run a business and you're trying to, you know, make a living in whatever it is. And like, I respect any travel baseball organization who's trying to get into this space because it's highly competitive, but you can't lose sight of really what it's all about. And if more organizations thought like you did. Yeah, I mean, like, you're, you're able to see, look, it is all about these guys and we need to pour into them. And if I pour into this kid and he develops, he's going to look at me like, thanks, coach. I really appreciate it. You helped me get to where I wanted to get to. But when these coaches, again, just think about, it's just, we just have to win. That's all I care about. We just need to win a ring. It's very short sighted and I think in the long term it's, it's not going to result in what they ultimately think it's going to end up resulting in.
- [53:39]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:40]
A
Well, for everybody listening, I do want to make this clear. So we have known each other a long time. We've talked often about all the things that you just described as far as what you're in this business for. And I can attest to this. I get comments all the time from parents saying, matt, you know, there's all these travel organizations and everybody says this, but like, who's a legit one? You're a legit one. And I've told you that to your face. I've told them now, like, I mean it, keep doing what you're doing, man. I appreciate you. It's great. Thank you, Sam.